If the German Reich and Austria-Hungary were one.

[poiuytrewq0987]

If the German Reich and Austria-Hungary had merged into a single European superstate, would've it had made any difference during WW1? Discuss.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/547/deutschlandosterreichis.png

[Bard]

The war would have been longer, but I think they would have lost the war even with this unity.
Maybe avoiding to sink the Lusitania and to piss off the americans (with the russian surrender too) they could have won.

[Daos]

Maybe avoiding to sink the Lusitania and to piss off the americans (with the russian surrender too) they could have won.

The Americans would have found some other reason to join in the war, don't worry...

[Bard]

The Americans would have found some other reason to join in the war, don't worry...

Well could be, and in anycase even if not fighting directly before the lusitania event they were helping england with many goods (weapons first of all I suppose)

[Daos]

Well could be, and in anycase even if not fighting directly before the lusitania event they were helping england with many goods (weapons first of all I suppose)

The Lusitania was carrying ammo, that is why it was sunk!;)

[Svanhild]

If the German Reich and Austria-Hungary had merged into a single European superstate, would've it had made any difference during WW1? Discuss.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/547/deutschlandosterreichis.png
It was and is not favourable. I don't like multiethnical states. Truth be told, Austria-Hungary was a monstrosity. Austria belongs to Germany and Hungary is a nation for itself. An alliance between Germany and Hungary? Sure, why not? But no shared national territory.

And pardon my French, but Germany hasn't lost WW1 on the field. The fact of the matter is that the Western front wasn't moving in any direction - stalemate - and situated on French territory whereas the Eastern front was at peace after the treaty of Brest-Litowsk. Our forces and leadership received a dagger thrust from within: The red uprising and strikes of socialist and communist forces and workers.

[poiuytrewq0987]

It was and is not favourable. I don't like multiethnical states. Truth be told, Austria-Hungary was a monstrosity. Austria belongs to Germany and Hungary is a nation for itself. An alliance between Germany and Hungary? Sure, why not? But no shared national territory.

What is stopping you from assimilating the non-Germans? :D If the Central Powers won WW1, A-H could've carried out a policy of Germanization and thus carve out an even greater German empire. :p


And pardon my French, but Germany hasn't lost WW1 on the field. The fact of the matter is that the Western front wasn't moving and situated on French territory whereas the Eastern front was at peace. Our forces and leadership received a dagger thrust from within: The red revolution of socialist and communist forces.Pretty much, plus the aid of the Americans tipped the balance of power in favor of the Allied powers.

[Svanhild]

What is stopping you from assimilating the non-Germans? :D If the Central Powers won WW1, A-H could've carried out a policy of Germanization and thus carve out an even greater German empire. :p
Blood is thicker than language. :wink I consider Hungarians as close friends but they are not Germans. If they learn German culture and language they are German-speaking Hungarians who adore German culture. But no Germans. And size doesn't matter that much. Integrity does.

[Murphy]

Austria belongs to Germany

Do the Austrian people not have a right to determine their own fate?

[Svanhild]

Do the Austrian people not have a right to determine their own fate?

Austrian national referendum on the issue of merging with Germany in 1938:

99,73% Yes

Historians concur that the result itself wasn't beautified. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss_(Österreich)

[Murphy]

Austrian national referendum on the issue of merging with Germany in 1938:

99,73% Yes

Historians concur that the result itself wasn't beautified. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss_(Österreich)

1938.. sorry. I thought this was 2010. Honest mistake, anyone could have made it!

[Svanhild]

1938.. sorry. I thought this was 2010. Honest mistake, anyone could have made it!
If things that happened in 1938 are too outdated for you then why do you kneel down and idolise someone who died 2000 years ago? :rolleyes:

[Murphy]

If things that happened in 1938 are too outdated for you then why do you kneel down and idolise someone who died 2000 years ago? :rolleyes:

:rolleyes2:..

Well, you see, there is quite a difference between eternal God and the political opinions of German farmers in 1938.

Politics change all the time. What may have been the case in 1938 is no longer the case today or so I have been led to believe.

But regardless, I asked you: do the people of Austria have a right to self determination?

[Arrow Cross]

What is stopping you from assimilating the non-Germans? :D If the Central Powers won WW1, A-H could've carried out a policy of Germanization and thus carve out an even greater German empire. :p
Last time it was half-tried, it had a pretty nasty ending. We are far too rebellous for that.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=327

The only thing besides the revolution's close failure that kept A-H together as a state was the shared Habsburg dynasty; the nationalities were quite much separated, thank you. It's proven to be a deadly marriage for us though, because after the war, "Austria-Hungary" was sliced up without any consideration towards the territorial integrity of the millenial Kingdom of Hungary within. It was a state within the state, so its borders were blatantly ignored.

Otherwise, uniting with the German Reich would have carried few differences; the eastern front would still have been won, and the western would still have collapsed thanks to the activity of "the workers", i.e. communist agitators and leftist saboteurs. It was such a stalemate and the Entente countries were so worn-down themselves, that it was really but a close race of which side would collapse sooner.

[Svanhild]

:rolleyes2:..

Well, you see, there is quite a difference between eternal God and the political opinions of German farmers in 1938.
Of farmers? Your disparaging of Austrians, who are full Germans in an ethnical, linguistical and cultural way, is sickening. There's no evidence for the mere existence of your eternal god but there's evidence for the blood connection of Germans and Austrians.

Politics change all the time. What may have been the case in 1938 is no longer the case today or so I have been led to believe.
Foreigners who want to lecture Germans on German matters. There's hardly anything more ridiculous.

But regardless, I asked you: do the people of Austria have a right to self determination?
Yes, and they did. But the clear result of the national referendum of '38 was nullified by the Allied forces after WW2, by foreign powers. No Austrian was asked if he wants the seperation of Austria from Germany after 1945. It just happened. So you better keep your trap shut and make peace with your creator who's not mine.

[Murphy]

Of farmers? Your disparaging of Austrians, who are full Germans in an ethnical, linguistical and cultural way, is sickening. There's no evidence for the mere existence of your eternal god but there's evidence for the blood connection of Germans and Austrians.

Foreigners who want to lecture Germans on German matters. There's hardly anything more ridiculous.

Yes, and they did. But the clear result of the national referendum of '38 was nullified by the Allied forces after WW2, by foreign powers. No Austrian was asked if he wants the seperation of Austria from Germany after 1945. It just happened. So you better keep your trap shut and make peace with your creator who's not mine.

Jesus Christ lass. If I was an Austrian I wouldn't want fuck all to do with you Northern Germans. You are all so aggressive.

I suppose it's to do with the fact that your nation had its balls chopped of by an alliance of a banking elite and Communists when you all thought you were something other than barbarians. I suppose this is your way of mking up for that lacking?

I asked a simple question. Do Austrians have a right to self-dtermination. But I think you only think they have the right to choose Germany and nothing else. Judging by your aggressive response however, you know that most Autrians are quite content being Austrian with no desire to lose themselves in a German monter-state.

Which quite frankly I do oppose. Germany must remain weak, it cannot get too powerful. Because it is a threat to Europe if it does. And I really don't want to depend on the good will of a bunch of Germans for the saftey of Europe.

[Arne]

But I think you only think they have the right to choose Germany and nothing else. Judging by your aggressive response however, you know that most Autrians are quite content being Austrian with no desire to lose themselves in a German monter-state.
Because it´s logical they belong to germany and not to swiss or whatever..
We speak the same language with minimal differences, but even these minimal amount couldn´t change the affinity.
Some people fear a too mighty folk like if the germans would be unite..
It´s one and the same family..

What would be the problem if they would be powerful ?
We are the germans and we don´t care about to be judged.

[Murphy]

Because it´s logical they belong to germany and not to swiss or whatever..
We speak the same language with minimal differences, but even these minimal amount couldn´t change the affinity.
Some people fear a too mighty folk like if the germans would be unite..
It´s one and the same family..

I am not denying that you are all one ethnic people. But you're under the impression that just because you are one ethnic people that means you must be united under one state, which I disagree with.

Germans from my understanding have quite a strong regional identity. And if the Austrians wish an independent state, who are you to deny them that?


What would be the problem if they would be powerful ?

They would turn that power against other Europeans.

[Beorn]

Austria for the Australians!!!!!

[Beorn]

We speak the same language with minimal differences

English and Scots speak the same language with minimal difference.

I hereby create a new country called Britain....shit! Wait, I uh....

[Arne]

They would turn that power against other Europeans.
Because Hitler had done that don´t mean we would bomb the iraq and afghanistan and ask germany for units to send there.
It´s over 50 years ago and we don´t earn to be wounded again.
We are not the folk who started war all around the world..

The Austrians didn´t asked for Independency after the War.

[Cail]

Blood is thicker than language. :wink I consider Hungarians as close friends but they are not Germans. If they learn German culture and language they are German-speaking Hungarians who adore German culture. But no Germans. And size doesn't matter that much. Integrity does.

This is somewhat naive. Modern Germans, like any of big European nations, is an amalgamation of dozens ethnicities, many of which quite different by blood. I can bet 1000 euro that Tyrolians and Pomeranians have much more in common (blood) with their non-German neighbours than with each other.

Or do you think there is some difference in blood of people who live on different sides of Austro-Hungarian border?

[Murphy]

Because Hitler had done that don´t mean we would bomb the iraq and afghanistan and ask germany for units to send there.
It´s over 50 years ago and we don´t earn to be wounded again.
We are not the folk who started war all around the world..

It has nothing to do with Hitler. It's a simple fact of the existance of big and powerful states. And Germany's position in the middle of Europe makes it worse.


The Austrians didn´t asked for Independency after the War.

That doesn't matter. There is a new generation of Austrians today and they should not be bound by a vote passed in 1938 if they have no desire to.

All I wanted to know was whether Svanhild respected their rights to determine either way, or if she would advocate a German republic invasion of Austria to capture the land because of a vote passed generations ago.

[Zyklop]

That doesn't matter. There is a new generation of Austrians today and they should not be bound by a vote passed in 1938 if they have no desire to.
There's a new generation in every European country today, one that accepts or even promotes multiculture, hedonism, homosexuality, promiscuity etc. Don't they have a right to self-determination too? And what about the secularists?

[Murphy]

There's a new generation in every European country today, one that accepts or even promotes multiculture, hedonism, homosexuality, promiscuity etc. Don't they have a right to self-determination too? And what about the secularists?

Yes, they have the right to determine their own futures. I will oppose them because I think they are wrong, I and will try and convince them so.

But in the end, we as a people have choosen the society we wish to live in. It's our own fault. And no shouting that the big bad Jew or whoever is behind it all is going to change the facts.

[Zyklop]

But in the end, we as a people have choosen the society we wish to live in.
At least in Germany's and Austria's case democracy wasn't accepted voluntarily.

[Svanhild]

Jesus Christ lass. If I was an Austrian I wouldn't want fuck all to do with you Northern Germans. You are all so aggressive.
You aren't Austrian or German hence your mind experiments are entirely imbecile. And you don't understand our nature and mindset as an organic collective. We aren't more aggressive than others but we shut people up who want to explain us how to act or think on German matters.

I suppose it's to do with the fact that your nation had its balls chopped of by an alliance of a banking elite and Communists when you all thought you were something other than barbarians. I suppose this is your way of mking up for that lacking?
I'm not an apologist for WW2 or the deeds of Hitler but I defend my country against baseless accusations and attempts to blur historical facts. One attempt of that kind is your drivel that Germans and Austrians don't belong together.

I asked a simple question. Do Austrians have a right to self-dtermination. But I think you only think they have the right to choose Germany and nothing else. Judging by your aggressive response however, you know that most Autrians are quite content being Austrian with no desire to lose themselves in a German monter-state.
Austrians have a right for self-determination and they made use of their right in '38. Something that was kept back from them after 1945. Some today's Austrians are content with being Austrians after decades of brain washing and allied propaganda but even these people know, deep in their heart, that we're one.

Which quite frankly I do oppose. Germany must remain weak, it cannot get too powerful. Because it is a threat to Europe if it does. And I really don't want to depend on the good will of a bunch of Germans for the saftey of Europe.
I appreciate your sincerity. You just fear that someone holds up a mirror to you and shows you the simpleton you are. Germany's fate is to be powerful because 90 Mio. Germans are not made for subprime affairs. It takes half the world to keep Germany down but you can't control natural assets forever. :wink Germany has been never a threat to Europe for the simple reason that we are its center and most quantitative population.

It has nothing to do with Hitler. It's a simple fact of the existance of big and powerful states. And Germany's position in the middle of Europe makes it worse.
Only losers and scaredy-pants fear equivalent competition. Because they know they'd lose.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Void
If the German Reich and Austria-Hungary had merged into a single European superstate, would've it had made any difference during WW1? Discuss.

Doubtful, Austria-Hungary was pushing it to be defined as a European power by 1914, it wasn’t so much an ally as a mill stone around Germany’s neck. In effect the Austrian high command was subordinate to the German military anyway and Austrian foreign policy always had an eye on what the Germans wanted, would political union have made all that much difference?

Once it became a war of attrition after 1914 Germany was always going to lose, it needed the knock out blows it had planned pre-war to come to pass, they didn’t, game over. In fact it is a credit to German stubbornness that it took so long for the combined might of the British Empire (the key ally in the Alliance, and effectively the only army capable of beating the Germans in 1918) France and the Americans (whose contribution was far greater than most believe) to win.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Which quite frankly I do oppose. Germany must remain weak, it cannot get too powerful. Because it is a threat to Europe if it does. And I really don't want to depend on the good will of a bunch of Germans for the saftey of Europe.

:D If German economy falls Europe falls.
Look what Greece's economy did/does to Europe

[Murphy]

:D If German economy falls Europe falls.

That is one of the problems. My economy should not be tied to that of Germany's nor should any others.

[Albion]

That is one of the problems. My economy should not be tied to that of Germany's nor should any others.

Economies are only tied to stronger economies because it is easiest that way. The UK and Ireland are pretty well tied to America, but Europe is very important too.
Germany is the keystone I'd say, if their economy failed Europe would have a hell of a mess on its hands.
I agre with you though, I think the UK and Eire should seek other trading partners in the Commonwealth and around the world.


As for the Austrian merger with Germany (Anschluss), I have relatives there and they're all for it. I'm not sure about the majority of Austrians, but they say themselves and most people they know would like Anschluss to occur.
However I think I read somewhere that it was banned by the allies, so it probably wouldn't be possible now.

[Breedingvariety]

I think Austria should join Germany and Germany should break European Union.

[Turkophagos]

I think Austria should join Germany and Germany should break European Union.


Auf Wiedersehen! :wavey001:

[poiuytrewq0987]

I think Austria should join Germany and Germany should break European Union.

I would love to see this happen. The EU has grown into a political monster that threatens the very essence of everything European.

[noricum]

The vast majority of Austrians, I guess far over 90%, would vote against another unification with Germany as they belief in the existence of a distinct Austrian ethnicity which actually was invented after the end of the second world war. Before it was only a collecting term to put all the ethnicities of the Austro-Hungarian Empire under one umbrella.

Today it can even be problematical, in meanings of being considered as Nazi, if an Austrian considers himself as ethnic German as I do. Still I'm against such a unification at the moment because currently the political situation in Germany is much worse than it is in Austria.

[Kanasyuvigi]

The vast majority of Austrians, I guess far over 90%, would vote against another unification with Germany as they belief in the existence of a distinct Austrian ethnicity which actually was invented after the end of the second world war. Before it was only a collecting term to put all the ethnicities of the Austro-Hungarian Empire under one umbrella.

Today it can even be problematical, in meanings of being considered as Nazi, if an Austrian considers himself as ethnic German as I do. Still I'm against such a unification at the moment because currently the political situation in Germany is much worse than it is in Austria.
I don't know what did the judeo-masons do to the Germans after 1945, but the vast majority of them are brainwashed. Most of the Germans I've talked to, sound like they are ashamed of who they are :mad: Any sign of patriotism or national pride is considered Nazi. Actually, I've noticed that in Eastern Germany the things are little bit better. It seems that the communism did not manage to extirpate the German spirit, unlike the capitalism.
Infact, I'm pretty sure that many Germans are nationalists but the fear of the public reaction drives them to hide their political views.

[noricum]

I don't know what did the judeo-masons do to the Germans after 1945, but the vast majority of them are brainwashed. Most of the Germans I've talked to, sound like they are ashamed of who they are :mad: Any sign of patriotism or national pride is considered Nazi.

Todays Germans biggest enemies are the Germans. In this context you should understand the invention of the Austrian ethnicity- it's self-denial or even self-hate!


Actually, I've noticed that in Eastern Germany the things are little bit better. It seems that the communism did not manage to extirpate the German spirit, unlike the capitalism.

True, just compare parades of the former East-German Army with parades of the West-German Army. The first ones look like Germans the second ones rather like 2nd class Americans. Maybe a little oversimplifying but this comparison still shows a lot of their self-image I think.