Black Pete Racist? 'Zwarte Piet' Controversy Leads To 90 Arrests In Netherlands

[microrobert]

Black Pete Racist? 'Zwarte Piet' Controversy Leads To 90 Arrests In Netherlands

Protesters disrupted a pre-Christmas celebration Saturday in the Netherlands that uses “Black Petes” to accompany St. Nicholas, leading to 90 arrests in the Dutch town of Gouda, the Associated Press reported. The Black Petes, known locally as "Zwarte Piet" and usually in blackface, wear jesters’ costumes and have accentuated red lips in what opponents say is a racist display.

http://www.ibtimes.com/black-pete-racist-zwarte-piet-controversy-leads-90-arrests-netherlands-1724362

[Hong Key]

http://dallaspenn.com/pics/albums/album01/blackpete1.jpg

http://www.scaryforkids.com/pics/black-peter.jpg

Black Peter is the companion of Saint Nicholas in the folklore of the Low Countries. The character first appeared in its current form in an 1850 book by Jan Schenkman.

[Kamal900]

Are you fucking kidding me? I know many Afrikanners who celebrate the holiday here in this country, and people didnt got offended by it. Hell, even my black friends liked the holiday very much too. Whats going on with the western world?

[Kamal900]

http://dallaspenn.com/pics/albums/album01/blackpete1.jpg

http://www.scaryforkids.com/pics/black-peter.jpg

Black Peter is the companion of Saint Nicholas in the folklore of the Low Countries. The character first appeared in its current form in an 1850 book by Jan Schenkman.

My Afrikaner friend once dressed like that in college during the holiday here in this country, and people found it both funny and interesting. Even blacks here found the holiday both cute and entertaining. Being PC is a mental illness, and its all thanks to the same people that Hitler warned the world about, and now, the world is paying for not listening to that man.

[European Knight]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9Yldaa5ngI

[TheBlondeSalad]

This is a blatantly racist tradition that can only be justified with astounding mental pirouettes and childish rationalizations.

It's the product of a white society that has had little experience with immigration and now has to struggle with the realities of globalization. It’s a problem the Dutch share with other European countries.

This has serious consequences for the concept of Citizenship. The Dutch define nationality ethnically and there is no real sense that the son of an immigrant born in Netherlands is really Dutch. He keeps being referred to as an ‘allochtoon’, a foreigner, and he certainly has no right to criticize the society he partakes in. If he does, he will invariably hear things like: “if you don’t like it here, why don’t you leave to you own country”. (I've personally been told this by an expat).

The situation has grown considerably worse after 9/11 and the murder of the right wing populist Pim Fortuyn.

[Dandelion]

Are you fucking kidding me? I know many Afrikanners who celebrate the holiday here in this country, and people didnt got offended by it. Hell, even my black friends liked the holiday very much too. Whats going on with the western world?

I didn't know Afrikaners also had Zwarte Piet. Never tought other ethnicities in South Africa to be this open minded and understanding (especially not since there's also Anglo influence there from which the current wave of political correctness and incomprehension comes from).
What I do know is that they celebrate it in the Antilles and that the controversy hasn't reached that region yet neither.

Currently the overwhelming majority supports this Zwarte Piet tradition still. However, as the world seems to hate it, I wonder how long it would last. Either the Dutch will tell the world to 'fuck off', or the Dutch would reluctantly change this tradition (and abandon all established folklore that has developed around Zwarte Piet).
While in its origin probably less innocent, Zwarte Piet isn't a slave. And children also view Zwarte Piet as their hero though next to the boring Sinterklaas.

[Dandelion]

This is a blatantly racist tradition that can only be justified with astounding mental pirouettes and childish rationalizations.

It's the product of a white society that has had little experience with immigration and now has to struggle with the realities of globalization. It’s a problem the Dutch share with other European countries.

This has serious consequences for the concept of Citizenship. The Dutch define nationality ethnically and there is no real sense that the son of an immigrant born in Netherlands is really Dutch. He keeps being referred to as an ‘allochtoon’, a foreigner, and he certainly has no right to criticize the society he partakes in. If he does, he will invariably hear things like: “if you don’t like it here, why don’t you leave to you own country”. (I've personally been told this by an expat).

The situation has grown considerably worse after 9/11 and the murder of the right wing populist Pim Fortuyn.

I think it makes the Dutch more realist about ethnicity, though not necessarily more racist. Being born in a country and still raised in a foreign culture still makes you 'foreign' in a way. We also have the word 'autochtoniseren' when a foreigner is raised in our culture. We're not exclusivist. You can become Dutch if you act it.

(note: us Flemish also use the word 'allochtoon' and allochtonen also identify themselves as allochtoon next to their own ethnicity and they also often identify as 'Dutch' next to that! See it as a Venn diagram! We are the same as Dutch in this specific regard. Probably it's more of a language thing than a culture thing, though.)

Actually we're not that much different from other Europeans. People also speak about 'second generation' or 'third generation immigrants' for people who are born in Europe! Nothing wrong with giving the child a name. Allochtoon is almost the same as the word 'gaijin' in Japan (except that they use it for tourists too). It's non-derogatory.

But I'm sure cultural marxists will ban it one day.

By the way: this diagram must be taken with a pinch of salt.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e9/AllochtoonAutochtoon.png

It's too much simplified. People can become Dutch, even non-Whites. Usually when someone has foreign traditions he's an allochtoon. Azalea probably has little problems calling herself an allochtoon, next to a Turk. By the way, she doesn't mind it when I call her a 'Dutch Turk'.

[Äijä]

This is a blatantly racist tradition that can only be justified with astounding mental pirouettes and childish rationalizations.

It's the product of a white society that has had little experience with immigration and now has to struggle with the realities of globalization. It’s a problem the Dutch share with other European countries.

This has serious consequences for the concept of Citizenship. The Dutch define nationality ethnically and there is no real sense that the son of an immigrant born in Netherlands is really Dutch. He keeps being referred to as an ‘allochtoon’, a foreigner, and he certainly has no right to criticize the society he partakes in. If he does, he will invariably hear things like: “if you don’t like it here, why don’t you leave to you own country”. (I've personally been told this by an expat).

The situation has grown considerably worse after 9/11 and the murder of the right wing populist Pim Fortuyn.


Why should the Dutch ban any tradition to appease anyone, they really should get the fuck out of Netherlands if offended.

Dutch nationality is having the citizenship that comes with the same rights and duties as presented to the ethnically Dutch people.

Dutch are the indigenous peoples there, they should have the right for their ethnicity.

[Mars06]

Xenophobic holidays or generally holidays with some sort of anti-foreign sentiment, are present in most cultures. There's probably some African tribal celebration somewhere where a white scarecrow or something is ritually decapitated. What's the big deal?

[Leto]

If he does, he will invariably hear things like: “if you don’t like it here, why don’t you leave to you own country”. (I've personally been told this by an expat).
It's normal. Adapt or fucking leave. What you're advocating is liberalism and multiculturalism.

[Leto]

I think it makes the Dutch more realist about ethnicity, though not necessarily more racist. Being born in a country and still raised in a foreign culture still makes you 'foreign' in a way. We also have the word 'autochtoniseren' when a foreigner is raised in our culture. We're not exclusivist. You can become Dutch if you act it.

(note: us Flemish also use the word 'allochtoon' and allochtonen also identify themselves as allochtoon next to their own ethnicity and they also often identify as 'Dutch' next to that! See it as a Venn diagram! We are the same as Dutch in this specific regard. Probably it's more of a language thing than a culture thing, though.)

Actually we're not that much different from other Europeans. People also speak about 'second generation' or 'third generation immigrants' for people who are born in Europe! Nothing wrong with giving the child a name. Allochtoon is almost the same as the word 'gaijin' in Japan. It's non-derogatory.

But I'm sure cultural marxists will ban it one day.

By the way: this diagram must be taken with a pinch of salt.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e9/AllochtoonAutochtoon.png

It's too much simplified. People can become Dutch, even non-Whites. Usually when someone has foreign traditions he's an allochtoon. Azalea probably has little problems calling herself an allochtoon, next to a Turk. By the way, she doesn't mind it when I call her a 'Dutch Turk'.
Yes, third-generation immigrants (both parents born in the N.) are counted as autochtoon, as far as I know. There is a significant number of colonial Eurasians (Dutch-Indonesian mix) who are counted as Dutch. Actually, the Netherlands seem a bit saner than some other Euro countries, despite having a reputation of one of the most liberal states. For example, Mark Rutte's party promotes assimilation and a stricter immigration policy. I was surprised when I learned it.

[Kamal900]

I didn't know Afrikaners also had Zwarte Piet. Never tought other ethnicities in South Africa to be this open minded and understanding (especially not since there's also Anglo influence there from which the current wave of political correctness and incomprehension comes from).
What I do know is that they celebrate it in the Antilles and that the controversy hasn't reached that region yet neither.

Currently the overwhelming majority supports this Zwarte Piet tradition still. However, as the world seems to hate it, I wonder how long it would last. Either the Dutch will tell the world to 'fuck off', or the Dutch would reluctantly change this tradition (and abandon all established folklore that has developed around Zwarte Piet).
While in its origin probably less innocent, Zwarte Piet isn't a slave. And children also view Zwarte Piet as their hero though next to the boring Sinterklaas.

Not all of the world hates the tradition, and yes, my Afrikaner friend once dressed like that even in college, and there wasn't any problems.

[Leto]

Mark Rutte on the Black Pete:thumb001:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6ahnNZvW5k

[Oneeye]

This is a blatantly racist tradition that can only be justified with astounding mental pirouettes and childish rationalizations.

It's the product of a white society that has had little experience with immigration and now has to struggle with the realities of globalization. It’s a problem the Dutch share with other European countries.

This has serious consequences for the concept of Citizenship. The Dutch define nationality ethnically and there is no real sense that the son of an immigrant born in Netherlands is really Dutch. He keeps being referred to as an ‘allochtoon’, a foreigner, and he certainly has no right to criticize the society he partakes in. If he does, he will invariably hear things like: “if you don’t like it here, why don’t you leave to you own country”. (I've personally been told this by an expat).

The situation has grown considerably worse after 9/11 and the murder of the right wing populist Pim Fortuyn.


I thought the Dutch were historically the Europeans most open to diversity and have had quite a diverse population in the largest port cities for hundreds of years? Amsterdam comes to mind, as does the New Netherland colonies.

Either way, how is it a white or European problem? That seems like quite a double standard.

[Dandelion]

Mark Rutte on the Black Pete:thumb001:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6ahnNZvW5k

He's not 100% right though. Last time I saw Antilleans on the television they were also painting their skin black. They are black people (mixed with white), but their brown skin is still different than charcoal. :p

[Dandelion]

I thought the Dutch were historically the Europeans most open to diversity and have had quite a diverse population in the largest port cities for hundreds of years? Amsterdam comes to mind, as does the New Netherland colonies.

Either way, how is it a white or European problem? That seems like quite a double standard.

Europeans have become very easily butthurt over non-issues. A fairly recent example is that Hello Kitty song of Avril Lavigne (terrible music though). People said that it's supposed to be offensive to Japanese people because she misrepresents the country lol. The people complaining: all people with a Western culture and predominantly whites who want to prove the world how non-racist they are.

Japanese people themselves didn't mind. They do it themselves with white people and our cultures anyway (parody us) and we don't mind neither.

(warning horrible song)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiaYDPRedWQ

Japanese response:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFrCDIpJ_f0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_NlVDFHMNc

Western culture (especially Anglo-Saxon culture) is just insane when it comes to 'racism'. Doesn't apply to the world outside of it.

[Hevo]

I thought the Dutch were historically the Europeans most open to diversity and have had quite a diverse population in the largest port cities for hundreds of years? Amsterdam comes to mind, as does the New Netherland colonies.

You are right, however before 1850(to be safe:P) the biggest cities were diverse but the minorities consisted of mostly Northern European ethnic groups. The only significant ''non-European'' minority in the biggest cities were the Jews.

[TheBlondeSalad]

Most inhabitants of the Netherlands had not seen any black people until the 1970s, when Suriname became independent. The Netherlands, though big in the slave trade and transport (the Dutch were the largest European slave traders in the 17th century, shipping over half a million slaves to Dutch colonies in the Western Hemisphere and were the last to abolish slavery, at least on paper) never allowed slavery within its own borders.

The Netherlands is actually a quite racist and xenophobic society. Just look at their recent politics and laws. If you're Dutch and marry a foreign spouse, your government's policy is to make you leave the country. Yet, other Europeans and their spouses can move to the Netherlands with no barriers at all. Dutch people whine and complain how no one speaks their language, but when foreigners do, they're derided and insulted that they don't speak perfectly and have blonde hair and blue eyes. Even then, the government wants you to pay $15,000 for a useless course on how to visit the doctor, ask for govt assistance and find a job. Should you already have a job and not need any assistance, then they will threaten to fine you and take away your residency permit (forget getting the passport - not possible) if you don't quit your job and go take a freaking course.

Also, you know it was the Dutch who invented apartheid. right?

[Dandelion]

Hard to debunk each and everything you claim Benedicta, but I think you have exaggerate a lot about Dutch and racism. A foreigner who wants to settle and integrate in Dutch society will find no problems like in most Western countries. Why else would foreigners do so well in the Netherlands? My impression is that when I visit the Netherlands. Foreigners are far better integrated in their society than they are in Flanders. You will far less likely see immigrant riots in the Netherlands than for instance France, the UK, Italy (wink wink). They usually have had a good education, speak grammatically correct Dutch and score well at the job market (unlike most Flemings who butcher their native language, Azalea here knows Dutch grammar better than 90% of the Flemish for instance and I'm not exaggerating; I have talked to her in Dutch before joining any anthroboard).

It's hard to make you think otherwise, because you already made up your mind (coming from an expat even; while expats in any country tend to be far removed from the culture they live in).

The Netherlands aren't xenophobic. They are just not political correct. That's far different than what you claim. I would also like to see sources for your claims.

[Oneeye]

Most inhabitants of the Netherlands had not seen any black people until the 1970s, when Suriname became independent. The Netherlands, though big in the slave trade and transport (the Dutch were the largest European slave traders in the 17th century, shipping over half a million slaves to Dutch colonies in the Western Hemisphere and were the last to abolish slavery, at least on paper) never allowed slavery within its own borders.

The Netherlands is actually a quite racist and xenophobic society. Just look at their recent politics and laws. If you're Dutch and marry a foreign spouse, your government's policy is to make you leave the country. Yet, other Europeans and their spouses can move to the Netherlands with no barriers at all. Dutch people whine and complain how no one speaks their language, but when foreigners do, they're derided and insulted that they don't speak perfectly and have blonde hair and blue eyes. Even then, the government wants you to pay $15,000 for a useless course on how to visit the doctor, ask for govt assistance and find a job. Should you already have a job and not need any assistance, then they will threaten to fine you and take away your residency permit (forget getting the passport - not possible) if you don't quit your job and go take a freaking course.

Also, you know it was the Dutch who invented apartheid. right?




If I dressed up as Zwarte Piet, would you like to blanda upp? ;)

[Dandelion]

If I dressed up as Zwarte Piet, would you like to blanda upp? ;)

That story about that mandatory course could be true though. The Netherlands are very organised. Result is better integrated society than in most European countries (though layered with overlap) and less chaos. Downside is that people who don't need it are setback. Hypercorrect rules.

However, I wouldn't trust the word of a snobby expat. I like foreigners, but I know for one that expats are often a bunch of wine-guzzling snobs who pretend to know the country they reside in inside out and judge it by some international bias (usually Anglo-Saxon with their history in mind, as most culture the world enjoys comes from there). What expats write on their forums about Belgium is very offensive about Flemish and Walloon while they live in East Brussels (the only rich part of the city).

[Leto]

unlike most Flemings who butcher their native language, Azalea here knows Dutch grammar better than 90% of the Flemish for instance and I'm not exaggerating; I have talked to her in Dutch before joining any anthroboard).
Why is that? It's your native language.

[Dandelion]

Why is that? It's your native language.

Easy to explain. Flemish speak their native language sloppily. For instance a Fleming would often say 'noemen' instead of 'heten' as an intransitive verb. That is incorrect. Yet even professors do this here. Why? Not because they're dumb. They just don't care. Other example: 'zo'n dingen' instead of 'zulke dingen'. This while 'zo'n' is a combination of the words 'zo' and 'een'. How on earth could it be followed by a plural? That's incorrect. Yet the Taalunie counts it as correct just because Flemings seem incapable of learning it correctly.

For instance, Azalea being educated in the Netherlands has a thorough feeling for the Dutch language. I saw her once even correctly writing 'op de Balkan' because the Balkans are a peninsula. I can tell you that 95% of Flemish would say incorrectly 'in de Balkan'.

Flemish are lazy Catholics. Dutch are strict Protestants. Still true to this day. Doesn't explain everything though. Russians are also very correct in their use of language and they aren't Protestants and your society is pretty chaotic if I dare say so.

[Leto]

Easy to explain. Flemish speak their native language sloppily. For instance a Fleming would often say 'noemen' instead of 'heten' as an intransitive verb. That is incorrect. Yet even professors do this here. Why? Not because they're dumb. They just don't care. Other example: 'zo'n dingen' instead of 'zulke dingen'. This while 'zo'n' is a combination of the words 'zo' and 'een'. How on earth could it be followed by a plural? That's incorrect. Yet the Taalunie counts it as correct just because Flemings seem incapable of learning it correctly.

For instance, Azalea being educated in the Netherlands has a thorough feeling for the Dutch language. I saw her once even correctly writing 'op de Balkan' because the Balkans are a peninsula. I can tell you that 95% of Flemish would say incorrectly 'in de Balkan'.
I see. It's just colloquialisms, nothing special. It's like saying "them boys" instead of "those boys". You guys speak local dialects in everyday life, don't you? Some people think Flemish is a language of its own, not just a Belgian version of Dutch.:)

[Dandelion]

I see. It's just colloquialisms, nothing special. It's like saying "them boys" instead of "those boys". You guys speak local dialects in everyday life, don't you? Some people think Flemish is a language of its own, not just a Belgian version of Dutch.:)

My language is also very Southern Dutch or 'Flemish'. I have no problems with colloquialisms and I am also tolerant toward informal language. I even prefer some elements of our variant of Dutch.
However, over here a professor (!) would even write mistakes like 'zo'n dingen' or 'in de Balkan' on papers. WTF? 'Noemen' instead of 'heten' is still reserved to spoken language, luckily.

[Leto]

My language is also very Southern of Flemish. I have no problems with colloquialism and I am also tolerant toward informal language. I even prefer some elements of our variant of Dutch.
However, over here a professor (!) would even write mistakes like 'zo'n dingen' or 'in de Balkan' on papers. WTF? Noemen instead of heten is still reserved to spoken language, luckily.
I agree.:nod:

[King Claus]

Most inhabitants of the Netherlands had not seen any black people until the 1970s, when Suriname became independent. The Netherlands, though big in the slave trade and transport (the Dutch were the largest European slave traders in the 17th century, shipping over half a million slaves to Dutch colonies in the Western Hemisphere and were the last to abolish slavery, at least on paper) never allowed slavery within its own borders.

The Netherlands is actually a quite racist and xenophobic society. Just look at their recent politics and laws. If you're Dutch and marry a foreign spouse, your government's policy is to make you leave the country. Yet, other Europeans and their spouses can move to the Netherlands with no barriers at all. Dutch people whine and complain how no one speaks their language, but when foreigners do, they're derided and insulted that they don't speak perfectly and have blonde hair and blue eyes. Even then, the government wants you to pay $15,000 for a useless course on how to visit the doctor, ask for govt assistance and find a job. Should you already have a job and not need any assistance, then they will threaten to fine you and take away your residency permit (forget getting the passport - not possible) if you don't quit your job and go take a freaking course.

Also, you know it was the Dutch who invented apartheid. right?
Go troll somewhere else.

[Sikeliot]

The immigrants might live there, but they chose to move to the Netherlands.. the Dutch should not have to change their culture to appease people who moved there on their own free will. Even if it is racist.

[King Claus]

The immigrants might live there, but they chose to move to the Netherlands.. the Dutch should not have to change their culture to appease people who moved there on their own free will. Even if it is racist.
It's not racist at all. It might appear racist to trolls like benedicta, or benefit leeches.

[Hithaeglir]

Meh.It seems racist if you're not accustomed to such celebrations,but on the other hand the locals should be able to practice their customs freely.

[King Claus]

I don't understand how all those foreigners can be offended by dutch culture. You should do some research on the country you plan to immigrate to.

[Oneeye]

Traditionally Zwarte Piet is said to be black because he is a Moor from Spain.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet


xD

[Dandelion]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet


xD

Yep. Funny isn't it? Don't believe the 'dirty from the chimney' story. That's a lame excuse. Dutch should be honest when they explain Black Pete's origins. Of course they do hide that story from children. He's not a slave though, he's Sinterklaas' helper. And yes, he has to be played by a white man!

http://satwcomic.com/art/black-pete.jpg

not really (though he usually is)

[Ars Moriendi]

I'm black and I don't feel offended by this.

[Leto]

I don't understand how all those foreigners can be offended by dutch culture. You should do some research on the country you plan to immigrate to.
I bet many Dutch-Surinamese and Antillian people protest against it, although they are native-born and Dutch-speaking.

[King Claus]

I bet many Dutch-Surinamese and Antillian people protest against it, although they are native-born and Dutch-speaking.
Have you ever seen an antilian or a surinamese? I'm sure that you won't call them "ethnic dutch" anymore after you've seen them. Also, when they talk they barely pronounce our language properly, and they know nothing about grammar and spelling either. And it was their parents choice to move to the netherlands in the first place ;)

[Leto]

Have you ever seen an antilian or a surinamese? I'm sure that you won't call them "ethnic dutch" anymore after you've seen them. Also, when they talk they barely pronounce our language properly, and they know nothing about grammar and spelling either.
I didn't mention the word "ethnic". I think second-generation immigrants are well-integrated and speak correctly. It's mostly Muslims who tend to stay unintegrated.

[King Claus]

I didn't mention the word "ethnic". I think second-generation immigrants are well-integrated and speak correctly. It's mostly Muslims who tend to stay unintegrated.well, native born is wrong as well, because they do not belong to the "native" population at all. They are immigrants, either from the past or modern day. It's their parents responsibility , because they came to the netherlands on their own.

You can think as much as you like, but the reality is probably far from that;)

[Leto]

well, native born is wrong as well, because they do not belong to the "native" population at all. They are immigrants, either from the past or modern day. It's their parents responsibility , because they came to the netherlands on their own.

You can think as much as you like, but the reality is probably far from that;)
Well, I don't argue, but 22% of the population are not autochtoon. Those people have to be dealt with in some way or another. Btw, you have a significant number of Eurasians (Dutch-Indonesians), many of them are counted as autochtoon now.
http://4.firepic.org/4/images/2014-11/20/qnwo97hqd8ok.jpg (http://firepic.org/)

[Leto]

Of course, the Black Pete celebration should not be banned.