I2a came to the Balkans with the Indo-Europeans

[JQP4545]

The title pretty much sums it up. If I2a came to the Balkans with the Slavs then why is it so evenly spread in the Greek mainland and the Aegean coast of Turkey? How could the Slavs completely overpopulate remote mountainous areas of Bosnia, and Croatia in such a short period of time? IMO the spread of I2a and R1a correlates with the Indo-European migrations. I2a is older than Ken Nordtvedt suggests.

[Argonian]

That's a good point. It's one of two major haplogroups that Slavs belong (the other being R1a). I don't know if there is conclusive evidence to show that I2a is originally Slavic though, but perhaps someone can correct me on this?

[Void]

All the non-R1 haplogroups in Europe appear to have survived in large mountain ranges. I1 in the Scandics, I2b in the Alps, I2a in the Dinaric Alps, E1 in the North African Rif mountains, G in the Caucasus.

The Indo-Europeans killed everyone in the lowlands. This occurred roughly 2500-3000 BC. Any admixture with I2a and subsequent spread would have occurred after this date.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Not all I2a is I2-Dinaric.

I2-Dinaric represents a recent mutation 2,000-3,000 years ago somewhere in the Carpathian mountain basin and it spread from there. There was probably I2-Dinaric in the Balkans before the slavic invasion, but the slavic invasions brought the majority of I2-Dinaric currently in the Balkans today.

[The Sun King]

Where is the G2a. God where is the G2a???? G2a is indo European.

[Sikeliot]

This makes sense, it explains why I2a is present on Greek islands, where there were no Slavs.

[JQP4545]

Not all I2a is I2-Dinaric.

I2-Dinaric represents a recent mutation 2,000-3,000 years ago somewhere in the Carpathian mountain basin and it spread from there. There was probably I2-Dinaric in the Balkans before the slavic invasion, but the slavic invasions brought the majority of I2-Dinaric currently in the Balkans today.

I recently had my haplogroup tested and I am I2a Dinaric-N (Greek male lineage). However, when I do the age estimates for my exact 12 marker matches they could go as far back as 3,800 years or more! That is only 95% chance, there is a 5% chance they could be even further back. How can the parent clade (I2a Dinaric) be younger than my subclade? Also why is there so much I2a on the Aegean coast of Asia Minor? It seems to go along with the Greek colonies there.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I recently had my haplogroup tested and I am I2a Dinaric-N (Greek male lineage). However, when I do the age estimates for my exact 12 marker matches they could go as far back as 3,800 years or more!

How do you an age estimate of those 12 markers? You have to compare them to someone else to calculate a TMRCA right?

[JQP4545]

All the non-R1 haplogroups in Europe appear to have survived in large mountain ranges. I1 in the Scandics, I2b in the Alps, I2a in the Dinaric Alps, E1 in the North African Rif mountains, G in the Caucasus.

The Indo-Europeans killed everyone in the lowlands. This occurred roughly 2500-3000 BC. Any admixture with I2a and subsequent spread would have occurred after this date.

No ethnic group is only one haplogroup so why should we assume that the Indo-Europeans were only R1? There is plenty of I2a Din in the regions of Ukraine and Romania that could have been carried in with the Indo-Europeans.

[JQP4545]

How do you an age estimate of those 12 markers? You have to compare them to someone else to calculate a TMRCA right?

Here is the website: http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/tmrca.htm

95 0.002064 0.951

So it takes 95 generations for a 11/12 marker match to get to 95% probability. Assuming that 1 generation = 30 years that = 2,850 years.

For a 10/12

122 0.001864 0.952

so 3,660 years.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Here is the website: http://dna-project.clan-donald-usa.org/tmrca.htm

95 0.002064 0.951

So it takes 95 generations for a 11/12 marker match to get to 95% probability. Assuming that 1 generation = 30 years that = 2,850 years.

For a 10/12

122 0.001864 0.952

so 3,660 years.

That's a very very rough calculator, each marker has its own mutation rate. Using an average mutation rate is only good for napkin calculations but it can easily be off by 20-30% which it's probably in your case.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Anyways Im a bit confused, wouldn't you need 3-4 fixed markers at 12, at least, to define I2-Dinaric from other I2s and other haplogroups in general?

Having 10/12 differences seems you're reading it wrong.

[JQP4545]

That's a very very rough calculator, each marker has its own mutation rate. Using an average mutation rate is only good for napkin calculations but it can easily be off by 20-30% which it's probably in your case.

Do you have a better calculator? How far would an exact match be for me?

[JQP4545]

Anyways Im a bit confused, wouldn't you need 3-4 fixed markers at 12, at least, to define I2-Dinaric from other I2s and other haplogroups in general?

Having 10/12 differences seems you're reading it wrong.

No 10/12 match exactly so there are 2 differences.

[JQP4545]

Most of my exact matches are from Hungary, Czech Republic, and Poland, but my male line goes back to Greece.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Do you have a better calculator? How far would an exact match be for me?

They are available everywhere, basically don't use one mutation rate for all 12 markers. Each marker has its OWN mutation rate, and those make some of a difference.

Try this one : http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html

[Stefan_Dusan]

Most of my exact matches are from Hungary, Czech Republic, and Poland, but my male line goes back to Greece.

That isn't surprising, I2-DinaricNorth is most common north of the Danube, and you will have many slavs with this signature. Remember it's a very new cluster, and people inside it share homogeneity across.

So a Greek will probably at 12 markers score exact matches with those areas too.

[Jana]

Well I2a1 is present in ares that are least "Slavic" in apperance and culture, representing PaleoBalkan populations. Slavs settled in pannonia mostly, but it would be wrong to say there are/were no Slavs in dinaric alps. I don't get the discussion about exact subclades though, so will refrain from unsupported claims.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Well I2a1 is present in ares that are least "Slavic" in apperance and culture, representing PaleoBalkan populations. Slavs settled in pannonia mostly, but it would be wrong to say there are/were no Slavs in dinaric alps. I don't get the discussion about exact subclades though, so will refrain from unsupported claims.

I2-Dinaric is the 2nd most common haplogroup in Poland, Belraussia, Russia, and Ukraine. The 2nd most common.

[Jana]

Thanks for info. How many sublclades are there? It is confusing a little.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Thanks for info. How many sublclades are there? It is confusing a little.

Well I2a2b, what we call I2-Dinaric is a subclade of I2.

Scientists have identified two clusters by STR marker results, that they call Dinaric North, and Dinaric South. The values separating them are at DYS448, and DYS449 where higher values (448=20, 449=32 or similar) are found in Northern Eastern European countries (north of the Danube, e.g. Poland, Belarussia) whereas lower values (448=19, 449=30 or similar) is generally found in Southern Eastern European countries (south of the Danube, e.g Bosnia, Serbia). However, you can find Dinaric North people even in Greece and Dinaric South people even in Belarussia. In Serbia, about 3/4 of the people who are I2-Dinaric are Dinaric South and the rest are obviously Dinaric North.

Before recently, there was no proposed SNP for this division, but recently people taking Big Y tests have yielded a possible SNP division separating Dinaric North and Dinaric South which could be defined by a mutation in S17250.

[Jana]

Thanks, very interesting!

[Artek]

I2-Dinaric is the 2nd most common haplogroup in Poland, Belraussia, Russia, and Ukraine. The 2nd most common.
Excluding Poland, where second most common haplogroup is R1b and I2 battles with I1 for global frequency and Russia where it's less common than N1c. But the rest is right.


Thanks for info. How many sublclades are there? It is confusing a little.
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/I2subclades229_zpse0252c50.jpg

Subclades of I2-Dinaric based on interpretation of "full" y-dna sequences.

[Shqipez]

The title pretty much sums it up. If I2a came to the Balkans with the Slavs then why is it so evenly spread in the Greek mainland and the Aegean coast of Turkey? How could the Slavs completely overpopulate remote mountainous areas of Bosnia, and Croatia in such a short period of time? IMO the spread of I2a and R1a correlates with the Indo-European migrations. I2a is older than Ken Nordtvedt suggests.

No its not. it came with slavs. in turkey i2a exists because of slavic immigrations there, like bosnian muslims... there are millions of bosnian muslims in turkey that are asimilated, search it up. if its balkanic, then how come its barely existant in albanians? same with r1a... yet albanians are locked inside the balkans, yet our neighbors are highly i2a... the same goes for EV-13 in turkey, its from balkanic deportations/immigrations. i2adin peak is in bosnia and croatia, exactly where proto serbs and croats settled. while diminishes in the rest of balkans, where illyrians also lived..., its peak is also in carpathian mountains. EV-13 in south slavs comes from asimilating some of the indigenous populations. How could the Illyrians of been ''slavicized'' by a minority?