The "Indo-European" components

[Thrax]

After running the archaic genomes with Eurogenes, MDLP and Dodecad here's what seems to be the Neolithic and "Indo-European" components

Dodecad K12b: Neolithic: Caucasus, Northwest African, Atlantic-Med, Southwest Asian
Indo-European: Gedrosia, North European


Eurogenes K13: Neolithic: West Med, East Med, Red Sea
Indo-European: West Asian. Baltic, North Atlantic


MDLP K23b: Neolithic: European Early Farmers, Caucasian, Near East, North African
Indo-European: European Hunters Gatherers, South Central Asian, Ancestral Altaic


I will try to find a "formula" to calculate how much of Neolithic European or "Indo-European" someone is

[Sikeliot]

Why would Atlantic-Med be Neolithic?

What I do know is, Gedrosia is an Iranic/Indian type component and thus, being highly evenly distributed in Europe, probably is the "Indo" part of IndoEuropean, and the North Euro the "Euro" part. :lol:

[Skipetar]

Apart from Indo-European and Neolithic there should also be a third, aka West Eurasian Hunter-Gatherer/Palaeolithic Euro component

[Thrax]

Why would Atlantic-Med be Neolithic?

What I do know is, Gedrosia is an Iranic/Indian type component and thus, being highly evenly distributed in Europe, probably is the "Indo" part of IndoEuropean, and the North Euro the "Euro" part. :lol:

Because in the neolithic samples it's very high and then it drops as we move towards the bronze and iron ages.

[Thrax]

Apart from Indo-European and Neolithic there should also be a third, aka West Eurasian Hunter-Gatherer/Palaeolithic Euro component

This seems to be North Atlantic+Baltic in the Eurogenes K13. The Indo-Europeans look like a mix of paleolithic Europeans with Central/West Asians.

[Sikeliot]

Because in the neolithic samples it's very high and then it drops as we move towards the bronze and iron ages.

Ahh ok. How prevalent is the AtlantoMed component in modern day Middle Easterners and West Asians?

[Hevo]

Eurogenes K15 ''East Euro'' is a good candidate imo.

[Vesuvian Sky]

On Dodecad V3, the early Neolithic LBK sample is mostly Med. but lacks an E. Euro component completely. Whereas the Urn-field sample has an E. Euro component and an increased West Euro component. The Mesolithic Motala sample has both a high Western component and E. Euro. Compared to EG-ANE7 calc. this shows a correlation between ANE and E. Euro components.

[Thrax]

Ahh ok. How prevalent is the AtlantoMed component in modern day Middle Easterners and West Asians?

Judging from some people I share with, it never exceeds 10%

[Highlands]

Sounds about right.

[Jackson]

Only thing with the North Atlantic component would be that it was a major component in both Indo Europeans and Neolithic individuals, so it would be difficult to work out exactly how much was from each in a given modern population. East European like components, some of the West Asian and the South-Central/Central Asian components definitely seem associated i agree. Judging by the recent results from Hungary it looks like the components may have come at different times to a certain extent. Biggest jump was from Neolithic/Copper Age to Bronze Age with the massive jump in typical north European components, quite significant.

[Vesuvian Sky]

I noticed that on Dodecad v3 the West Asian component appears with the early Neolithic LBK specimen but certainly not the Mesolithic Motala or any of the other Meso hunter gatherers if not mistaken. It does appear on the Urnfield specimen but at a reduced form.

I'm curious, which calculators if any give high West Asian for Mesoliths? Or is the implication that its associated with some cultural horizons that we haven't seen ADMIXTURE results for yet (like CWC, Yamna, BBC etc)?

[Stanislav]

After running the archaic genomes with Eurogenes, MDLP and Dodecad here's what seems to be the Neolithic and "Indo-European" components

Dodecad K12b: Neolithic: Caucasus, Northwest African, Atlantic-Med, Southwest Asian
Indo-European: Gedrosia, North European


Eurogenes K13: Neolithic: West Med, East Med, Red Sea
Indo-European: West Asian. Baltic, North Atlantic


MDLP K23b: Neolithic: European Early Farmers, Caucasian, Near East, North African
Indo-European: European Hunters Gatherers, South Central Asian, Ancestral Altaic


I will try to find a "formula" to calculate how much of Neolithic European or "Indo-European" someone is

I think that South Central Asian, Ancestral Altaic is from ANE (Ancient North Eurasian) - Malta sample (F999914) hase South Central Asian, and also Baltic and Fennoscandian. Mostly old common ancestor?

[Thrax]

I think I found a formula (but still not perfect)

In Eurogenes K13:
Neolithic: West Med + East Med + Red Sea + North Atlantic (if below 25%)
Indo-European: Baltic + West Asian + (North Atlantic - 25) (or 0 if North Atlantic is <25)

My results:
Neolithic: 18.33 + 28.37 + 1.82 + 20.07 = 68.59
Indo-European: 15.01 + 15.1 = 30.11


In Dodecad K12b:
Neolithic: Caucasus + NW African + Atlantic Med + SW Asian
Indo-European: Gedrosia + North European

My results:
Neolithic: 33.99 + 0.37 + 26.45 + 8.56 = 69.37
Indo-European: 6.2 + 23.84 = 30.04

In MDLP K23b:
Neolithic: EEF + Caucasian + Near East + N African
Indo-European: EHG + South Central Asian + Ancestral Altaic + other Asian

My results:
Neolithic: 22.72 + 38.68 + 7.1 + 2.67 = 71.17
Indo-European: 19.62 + 5.33 + 0.62 + 1.98 + 0.23 + 0.08 = 27.86

So overall, it seems I am about 70% neolithic and 30% indo-european and other greeks I checked have the same percentages.
Does anyone want to post their results to check if there is consistency between them?

[Not a Cop]

I think I found a formula (but still not perfect)

In Eurogenes K13:
Neolithic: West Med + East Med + Red Sea + North Atlantic (if below 25%)
Indo-European: Baltic + West Asian + (North Atlantic - 25) (or 0 if North Atlantic is <25)

My results:
Neolithic: 18.33 + 28.37 + 1.82 + 20.07 = 68.59
Indo-European: 15.01 + 15.1 = 30.11


In Dodecad K12b:
Neolithic: Caucasus + NW African + Atlantic Med + SW Asian
Indo-European: Gedrosia + North European

My results:
Neolithic: 33.99 + 0.37 + 26.45 + 8.56 = 69.37
Indo-European: 6.2 + 23.84 = 30.04

In MDLP K23b:
Neolithic: EEF + Caucasian + Near East + N African
Indo-European: EHG + South Central Asian + Ancestral Altaic + other Asian

My results:
Neolithic: 22.72 + 38.68 + 7.1 + 2.67 = 71.17
Indo-European: 19.62 + 5.33 + 0.62 + 1.98 + 0.23 + 0.08 = 27.86

So overall, it seems I am about 70% neolithic and 30% indo-european and other greeks I checked have the same percentages.
Does anyone want to post their results to check if there is consistency between them?

IE scores according to your sistem:

K13:84
K12b:65
K23b:60

[Sikeliot]

I think I found a formula (but still not perfect)

In Eurogenes K13:
Neolithic: West Med + East Med + Red Sea + North Atlantic (if below 25%)
Indo-European: Baltic + West Asian + (North Atlantic - 25) (or 0 if North Atlantic is <25)

My results:
Neolithic: 18.33 + 28.37 + 1.82 + 20.07 = 68.59
Indo-European: 15.01 + 15.1 = 30.11


In Dodecad K12b:
Neolithic: Caucasus + NW African + Atlantic Med + SW Asian
Indo-European: Gedrosia + North European

My results:
Neolithic: 33.99 + 0.37 + 26.45 + 8.56 = 69.37
Indo-European: 6.2 + 23.84 = 30.04

In MDLP K23b:
Neolithic: EEF + Caucasian + Near East + N African
Indo-European: EHG + South Central Asian + Ancestral Altaic + other Asian

My results:
Neolithic: 22.72 + 38.68 + 7.1 + 2.67 = 71.17
Indo-European: 19.62 + 5.33 + 0.62 + 1.98 + 0.23 + 0.08 = 27.86

So overall, it seems I am about 70% neolithic and 30% indo-european and other greeks I checked have the same percentages.
Does anyone want to post their results to check if there is consistency between them?

Here is for my Sicilian cousin (Palermitan), more reliable than mine for this since I am mixed with a million things:

Eurogenes K13
Neolithic: 22.20 + 27.05 + 6.68 + 22.25 = 78.18
Indo-European: 3.77 + 14.58 = 18.35


Dodecad K12b
Neolithic: 31.25 + 4.31 + 29.87 + 13.17 = 78.6
Indo-European: 8.52 + 10.68 = 19.2

MDLP K23b
Neolithic: 24.65 + 35.17 + 11.01 + 5.50 = 76.33
Indo-European: 11.71 + 6.97 + 0.34 + 0.06 + 1.34 = 20.42

[Jackson]

K13:
Neolithic: 70.13%
Indo-European: 29.87%

K12b:
Neolithic: 47.66%
Indo-European: 52.44%

K23b:
Neolithic: 51.7%
Indo-European: 48.3%

I think it's inconsistent for K13 because a substantial amount of the North Atlantic must be Indo-European.

[Thrax]

K13:
Neolithic: 70.13%
Indo-European: 29.87%

K12b:
Neolithic: 47.66%
Indo-European: 52.44%

K23b:
Neolithic: 51.7%
Indo-European: 48.3%

I think it's inconsistent for K13 because a substantial amount of the North Atlantic must be Indo-European.

Yes, for K13, reduce north atlantic by 25 and add the rest in indo-european

[SSlava]

Why West Asia? West Asia may be the Indo-European, and perhaps not at all Indo-European))
In Caucasians, 70 percent of West Asia happen - they are Indo-Europeans?))

[Vesuvian Sky]

Why West Asia? West Asia may be the Indo-European, and perhaps not at all Indo-European))
In Caucasians, 70 percent of West Asia happen - they are Indo-Europeans?))

More likely not at all. It clearly arrives in Europe with early farmers (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?148147-Early-Euro-Neolithic-aDNA-ADMIXTURE-of-the-first-Farmers) rather then with Late-Calcolithic-early Bronze PIEs who were nomadic pastoralists.

[Jackson]

Yes, for K13, reduce north atlantic by 25 and add the rest in indo-european

Ahh i see what you mean now, misunderstood your post:

K13:
Neolithic: 49.83%
Indo-European: 50.17%

[SSlava]

K13
North_Atlantic 25.81%
Baltic 48.27%
West_Asian 5.42%
Indo-European: 79,43

West_Med 11.70%
East_Med 3.87%
Red_Sea 1.43%
Neolithic: 17

[Thrax]

Why West Asia? West Asia may be the Indo-European, and perhaps not at all Indo-European))
In Caucasians, 70 percent of West Asia happen - they are Indo-Europeans?))

West Asia was absent from Neolithic Europe and seems to start appearing in the bronze age when the "Indo-Europeans" first appeared in Europe.

[Thrax]

K13
North_Atlantic 25.81%
Baltic 48.27%
West_Asian 5.42%
Indo-European: 79,43

West_Med 11.70%
East_Med 3.87%
Red_Sea 1.43%
Neolithic: 17

You have 25% North Atlantic which is most likely neolithic (since all the neolithic genomes have about this quantity of this component). So I would say that your Neolithic is about 42% and your indo-European about 54%

[Highlands]

When did East med first appear?

[Vesuvian Sky]

All of the early Neolithic samples have West Asian DNA at higher frequencies than the Bronze age samples. Using Dodecad V3, here's the early Neolithic Linear Ware specimen from c. 5000 BC or so:

http://i60.tinypic.com/15zjgg.jpg

Here is the Bronze age Urnfield sample from c. 1000 BC:

http://i57.tinypic.com/975r0z.jpg

Notice the appearance of the e. Euro component which is not in the Neolithic sample and the increase of the West Euro. Compare to his reduction of West Asian and Med./ENF.

Also you can see how loaded the Neolithic examples are with W. Asian DNA in this thread:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?148147-Early-Euro-Neolithic-aDNA-ADMIXTURE-of-the-first-Farmers

[Vesuvian Sky]

When did East med first appear?

During the earlier Neolithic. If you run f999916 over at Gedmatch using Eurogenes_K36 you'll see this LBK farmer c. 5000 BC carries E. Med autosomal components:

http://i59.tinypic.com/jukbx4.jpg

[Highlands]

Interesting, thank you :)

[SSlava]

Well here is not clear, West Asia is for example, South of Europe, but it could come there from Caucasus, for example, during the Great migration of the peoples. And why, if more than 25% of the Atlantic, it is from Indo-europeans? By the way, Russians have arround 24-27%. That component increases slowly towards West. In the Western Slavs, for example, I think, there are more than 30% Atlantic?

[Vesuvian Sky]

Well here is not clear, West Asia is for example, South of Europe, but it could come there from Caucasus, for example, during the Great migration of the peoples. And why, if more than 25% of the Atlantic, it is from Indo-europeans? By the way, Russians have arround 24-27%. That component increases slowly towards West. In the Western Slavs, for example, I think, there are more than 30% Atlantic?

It basically comes from the south accompanying farming. That's why its so well represented all over the place.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

In Eurogenes K13:
Neolithic:47.73
Indo-European:38.08

In Dodecad K12b:
Neolithic:62.58
Indo-European:27.31

In MDLP K23b:
Neolithic:62.38
Indo-European:36.64

[Armatus]

EG K13:
Neolithic: 52.96%
IndoEuropean: 46.57%
~ 53:47

DDC K12b:
Neolithic: 45.23%
IndoEuropean: 50.76%
~ 47:53

MDLP K23b:
Neolithic: 53.38%
IndoEuropean: 45.82%
~ 54:46

AVG: 51:49

Looks like I'm pretty close to a 50/50 mix.

[Thrax]

All of the early Neolithic samples have West Asian DNA at higher frequencies than the Bronze age samples. Using Dodecad V3, here's the early Neolithic Linear Ware specimen from c. 5000 BC or so:

http://i60.tinypic.com/15zjgg.jpg

Here is the Bronze age Urnfield sample from c. 1000 BC:

http://i57.tinypic.com/975r0z.jpg

Notice the appearance of the e. Euro component which is not in the Neolithic sample and the increase of the West Euro. Compare to his reduction of West Asian and Med./ENF.

Also you can see how loaded the Neolithic examples are with W. Asian DNA in this thread:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?148147-Early-Euro-Neolithic-aDNA-ADMIXTURE-of-the-first-Farmers

The Dodecad West Asia and Eurogenes West Asia is not the same. DV3 from Dodecad is not a good calculator for calculating those components, that's why I used K12b.

[Thrax]

EG K13:
Neolithic: 52.96%
IndoEuropean: 46.57%
~ 53:47

DDC K12b:
Neolithic: 45.23%
IndoEuropean: 50.76%
~ 47:53

MDLP K23b:
Neolithic: 53.38%
IndoEuropean: 45.82%
~ 54:46

AVG: 51:49

Looks like I'm pretty close to a 50/50 mix.

Most people from Germany/West/Central Europe that I've seen score about 50/50. Southern Europe scores about 70/30 and East Europe about 45/55.

[Thrax]

Well here is not clear, West Asia is for example, South of Europe, but it could come there from Caucasus, for example, during the Great migration of the peoples. And why, if more than 25% of the Atlantic, it is from Indo-europeans? By the way, Russians have arround 24-27%. That component increases slowly towards West. In the Western Slavs, for example, I think, there are more than 30% Atlantic?

I put 25% because the neolithic samples score about 20-25% of this component and then it started rising in the Bronze Age. That's why I associated it with Indo-Europeans as well.

[Vesuvian Sky]

The Dodecad West Asia and Eurogenes West Asia is not the same. DV3 from Dodecad is not a good calculator for calculating those components, that's why I used K12b.

They're not the same but similar. So the pattern is going to be the same regardless, even on k12b:

LBK early Neolithic
http://i62.tinypic.com/dzgv7l.jpg

Bronze Age Urnfield
http://i61.tinypic.com/28j8vbn.jpg

An increase in the northerly traits and a decrease in the southerly.

West Asian/Caucasian =/= IE.

[Thrax]

They're not the same but similar. So the pattern is going to be the same regardless, even on k12b:

LBK early Neolithic
http://i62.tinypic.com/dzgv7l.jpg

Bronze Age Urnfield
http://i61.tinypic.com/28j8vbn.jpg

An increase in the northerly traits and a decrease in the southerly.

West Asian/Caucasian =/= IE.

You keep confusing the EUROGENES K13 West Asian with the DODECAD K12b Southwest Asian

[Sizzo]

I doubt West Asian is IE: it's stronger in South Italy than North Italy, and South Italy is clearly more Neolithic.

[Not a Cop]

IE scores according to your sistem:

K13:84
K12b:65
K23b:60

Shit, now i get that i had to minus 25 from the N.A., so K13 is 59.

[curupira]

One should wait both Samara and Yamnaya studies, which are about to be released, to get a clearer picture.

[Thrax]

I doubt West Asian is IE: it's stronger in South Italy than North Italy, and South Italy is clearly more Neolithic.

Maybe not all of it is Indo-European. But West Asian clearly appears in Europe during and after the Bronze Age. (the Eurogenes K13 West Asian at least)

[Sizzo]

Maybe not all of it is Indo-European. But West Asian clearly appears in Europe during and after the Bronze Age. (the Eurogenes K13 West Asian at least)

Gedrosia is better, for sure.

[Vesuvian Sky]

You keep confusing the EUROGENES K13 West Asian with the DODECAD K12b Southwest Asian

Nope. That's a straw man you're trying to create.

The results show clearly on both Dodecad calcs. that Caucus decreases as well.

Its obvious that if you want a more accurate assessment of early or proto IE genes you'll have to take out West Asian/Caucus.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Gedrosia is better, for sure.

Definitely. But not West Asian. 'West Asian as IE' was Dienekes biggest fantasy which led him to get called out here:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/36050-Can-Dienekes-Pontikos-still-be-regarded-as-a-useful-source-of-info

[Vesuvian Sky]

One should wait both Samara and Yamnaya studies, which are about to be released, to get a clearer picture.

That's actually a good point. Though because of the Bug-Dniester culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bug-Dniester_culture) there may actually be some West Asian admixture among the PIE community even at Khvalynsk. But I doubt the ultimate source came from Pre-Proto let alone Proto-Indo Europeans.

[Sizzo]

Definitely. But not West Asian. 'West Asian as IE' was Dienekes biggest fantasy which led him to get called out here:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/36050-Can-Dienekes-Pontikos-still-be-regarded-as-a-useful-source-of-info

Maybe, the North Caucasus of K36 could be a good candidate.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Maybe, the North Caucasus of K36 could be a good candidate.

Well, the Urnfield specimen doesn't appear to have that on EG_K36:

http://i61.tinypic.com/8xtyty.jpg

This forthcoming paper is basically already linking the Corded Culture to the ANE component:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?142743-New-Paper-Corded-Ware-Culture-Population-Turnover-Migration

[Sizzo]

Well, the Urnfield specimen doesn't appear to have that on EG_K36:

http://i61.tinypic.com/8xtyty.jpg

This forthcoming paper is basically already linking the Corded Culture to the ANE component:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?142743-New-Paper-Corded-Ware-Culture-Population-Turnover-Migration

High "Italian"? Why?

[gold_fenix]

Maybe not all of it is Indo-European. But West Asian clearly appears in Europe during and after the Bronze Age. (the Eurogenes K13 West Asian at least)

in ancestral samples , the closest population to Iberian is Bronze age and we have a very low west asian component

[SSlava]

Dodecad K12b
North_European 58.37%
Gedrosia 1.18%
Indo-European: 59,55

Caucasus 11.34%
Northwest_African -
Atlantic_Med 24.21%
Southwest_Asian 1.81%
Neolithic: 37,36

[Vesuvian Sky]

High "Italian"? Why?

Not so sure because I don't think the category was ever really explained. However let's compare:

Mesolithic:
http://i60.tinypic.com/2hdpbps.jpg

early Neolithic:
http://i62.tinypic.com/sm7ngj.jpg

Bronze Age:
http://i61.tinypic.com/8xtyty.jpg

Ask yourself: What changes? What stays the same? What increases? What decreases?

[SSlava]

MDLP K23b
European_Hunters_Gatherers 53.61%
Ancestral_Altaic 2.30%
South_Central_Asian -
South_East_Asian 0.97%
Indo-European: 56,88

[Thrax]

Nope. That's a straw man you're trying to create.

The results show clearly on both Dodecad calcs. that Caucus decreases as well.

Its obvious that if you want a more accurate assessment of early or proto IE genes you'll have to take out West Asian/Caucus.

Read again my first post. You'll clearly see that in the K12b I have Caucasus and Southwest Asia as Neolithic. Why do you keep mixing West Asia which is from another calculator with Dodecad?

[Vesuvian Sky]

Read again my first post. You'll clearly see that in the K12b I have Caucasus and Southwest Asia as Neolithic. Why do you keep mixing West Asia which is from another calculator with Dodecad?

I just ran the Urnfield and LBK kits in Eurogenes K13:

Urnfield
http://i61.tinypic.com/2mzl4ll.jpg

LBK
http://i60.tinypic.com/2cztreo.jpg

So you think a 0.13% West Asian component in the Bronze Age sample is really enough to associate that with IE migrations? Usually that's dismissed as statistical noise.

They may not be exactly the same components per se on calculators but they have significant overlap. Here's Caucus on K8:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQVG9fcDlTQzhRLTQ/edit

West Asian on K15:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQQkFkc0hOazFqU1E/edit

Here's Dienekes explaining the interrelationships of components between k12b and 7b.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/inter-relationships-between-dodecad-k7b.html

There's obviously much Gedrosian but also a significant amount of West Asian. But most calcs. have diminishing returns with the West Asian when you advance towards the Bronze Age just like with Eurogenes K13.

Overall, based on what's empirically observed from all the runs I made on all the variety of calcs. on the aDNA, I see little evidence for Caucus or even the too broadly defined 'West Asian' category as a smoking signal of IE migration. The Gedrosian component yes, but even when its separated by itself as a component, it comes out low which is probably due to the Basal Eurasian factor of Indo-Europeans more than anything else. And that's likely what the Hinxton set has in its West Asian: Gedrosian rather than Caucus. Though some of it could be Caucus.

I don't think EG_k13 is really that good for this.

[Thrax]

Maybe K13 isn't very good, yes. But when I ran the results of the hungarian and british samples from the Bronze and Iron ages, West Asia was high in both, especially in the Hungarians. That's why I connected it to the indo-Europeans.