Classify Kostenki-14

[Vesuvian Sky]

http://news.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/sn-bust.jpg

http://www.donsmaps.com/images8/kostenkihead.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7t4meQzsnBY/TrMu5mGheDI/AAAAAAAAH7I/RXb3Mrd69yY/s1600/Kostenki.jpg

[JoeyGee8688]

Looks somewhere between Australoid and Negrid.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Looks somewhere between Australoid and Negrid.

Indeed, though oddly enough this is what was said of him:


Analysis of his DNA shows he has genes from all three of those migratory groups and so was already “pure European,” by modern standards says evolutionary biologist Eske Willerslev of the Natural History Museum of Denmark at the University of Copenhagen, who led the analysis.

source (http://anthropology.net/2014/11/07/kostenki-14-a-36000-year-old-european/)

Odd statement considering that MDLP's K23b 4-Ancestors Oracle places him closest to Puerto Ricans @ 28.564413. Not to mention his admixture results are pretty, well, mixed.

[JoeyGee8688]

Indeed, though oddly enough this is what was said of him:



source (http://anthropology.net/2014/11/07/kostenki-14-a-36000-year-old-european/)

Odd statement considering that MDLP's K23b 4-Ancestors Oracle places him closest to Puerto Ricans @ 28.564413. Not to mention his admixture results are pretty, well, mixed.

Are they saying, then, that Europeans are a mixture of the three main races? Weird, I'll have to research this fella when I get some free time.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Are they saying, then, that Europeans are a mixture of the three main races? Weird, I'll have to research this fella when I get some free time.

Check out this thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?148042-MDLP_K23b-aDNA-ADMIXTURE-RESULTS&highlight=MDLP_K23b). It basically shows admixture throughout various time periods. Note Kostenki's and then compare him to Motala who actually scores near pure ancient European hunter.

[Roy]

Australoid.

[Not a Cop]

Check out this thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?148042-MDLP_K23b-aDNA-ADMIXTURE-RESULTS&highlight=MDLP_K23b). It basically shows admixture throughout various time periods. Note Kostenki's and then compare him to Motala who actually scores near pure ancient European hunter.

His results look pretty fucked up.

[Vesuvian Sky]

His results look pretty fucked up.

Alot of the Paleo guys do. But they're not illogical results per se. In theory, its when groups went into Ice Age refugiums that we get autosomal homogeneity. Hence Motala.

[Roy]

Alot of the Paleo guys do. But they're not illogical results per se. In theory, its when groups went into Ice Age refugiums that we get autosomal homogeneity. Hence Motala.

Well at least one can try to explain his looks by common scientifical assumption that what we call as races was not as differentiated as it's today.



This man lived before the last Ice Age took place in much warmer environment and it's known that Caucasian features developed in colder climate.

[Not a Cop]

Alot of the Paleo guys do. But they're not illogical results per se. In theory, its when groups went into Ice Age refugiums that we get autosomal homogeneity. Hence Motala.

What about Motala btw? Do we have a reconstruction or atleast good pics of the sull?

[Vesuvian Sky]

Well at least one can try to explain his looks by common scientifical assumption that what we call as races was not as differentiated as it's today.

And from an evolutionary standpoint there wouldn't need to be since the climate was stable and everyone was just beginning their migratory paths. And if you think of it, all these components we have today had to have a 'father' source. But from what the admixture over the long duree suggests is that the degrees of homogeneity we see today resulted from Ice Age bottle neck effects, most likely compounded with extreme natural selection and then of course inbreeding. When societies became more complex due to favorable climatic conditions and technology, then we again see less homogeneity.

[Vesuvian Sky]

What about Motala btw? Do we have a reconstruction or atleast good pics of the sull?

Good question. I came across a field report on academia.edu but its nothing meaningful for classification. If I had to guess though, he may have looked like this other Scando Mesolithic reconstruction:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?15432-Classify-reconstruction-of-a-Mesolithic-Swedish-woman

[Vesuvian Sky]

Here's a link BTW to the field report:

https://www.academia.edu/3122672/Mesolithic_skull_depositions_at_Kanaljorden_Motala _Sweden

They found multiple skulls at the site:

http://kickassfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/006_TheTomboftheSunkenSkulls.jpg

http://www.thehistoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/skullstake.jpg

About the site, its known as 'Tomb of the Sunken Skulls':


While excavating a dry lake bed in Motala, Sweden archaeologists came across several skulls that had stakes driven directly through their craniums. As if that weren’t bad enough one of the skulls even had pieces of the others skulls crammed up inside it. Whatever happened their 8,000 years ago wasn’t pretty.

[Raven_]

Indeed, though oddly enough this is what was said of him:



source (http://anthropology.net/2014/11/07/kostenki-14-a-36000-year-old-european/)

Odd statement considering that MDLP's K23b 4-Ancestors Oracle places him closest to Puerto Ricans @ 28.564413. Not to mention his admixture results are pretty, well, mixed.

According to the paper, (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/11/kostenki-14-perhaps-not-what-i-expected.html) he is closest to Lithuanians (genomes of more northern NE Euros were not used in comparison).

[Vesuvian Sky]

According to the paper, (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2014/11/kostenki-14-perhaps-not-what-i-expected.html) he is closest to Lithuanians (genomes of more northern NE Euros were not used in comparison).

Same issue for La Brana: the peer review had him in line with a western population but the third party calc had him closest to NE Euros or population rather different from his geographic local.

According to the actual study though (http://www2.zoo.cam.ac.uk/manica/ms/2014_Seguin_Orlando_et_al_Science.pdf) 167 populations were used for comparison to the Kostenki-14 genome. Whereas MDLP uses 620 populations which is statistically a more normalized distribution set than the peer reviewed. But even the abstract of the peer review said this:




Additionally, the Kostenki 14 genome shows evidence of shared ancestry with a population basal to all Eurasians.... Our findings reveal the timing of divergence of western Eurasians and East Asians to be more than 36,200 years ago and that European genomic structure today dates back to the Upper Paleolithic and derives from a meta-population that at times stretched from Europe to central Asia.

He's basal Eurasian and therefore mixed, or a 'meta-population' as they say.

[Raven_]

Same issue for La Brana: the peer review had him in line with a western population but the third party calc had him closest to NE Euros or population rather different from his geographic local.

I am not sure if thee two cases are comparable.

The first peer review article (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22748318) stated that 'these two Mesolithic individuals are not related to current populations from either the Iberian Peninsula or Southern Europe.' Later analysis, this time of a fully sequenced La Brana 1's genome only confirmed earlier finds - 'La Braña 1 individual clusters near, but not exactly within, Northern European populations such as CEU, Finns and Great Britons. Thus, we can rule out that the genetic variants of this ancient individual can be drawn from the distribution of extant Southern European populations such as Iberians or Tuscans'.



According to the actual study though (http://www2.zoo.cam.ac.uk/manica/ms/2014_Seguin_Orlando_et_al_Science.pdf) 167 populations were used for comparison to the Kostenki-14 genome. Whereas MDLP uses 620 populations which is statistically a more normalized distribution set than the peer reviewed. But even the abstract of the peer review said this:

He's basal Eurasian and therefore mixed, or a 'meta-population' as they say.


A quote from the supplementary paper:


The largest component
belongs to the same ancestral cluster that is predominant in contemporary Eastern
Europeans as well as all European MHGs. However, K14 also includes a sizeable
component that characterizes contemporary Middle Eastern populations and Neolithic
ancient genomes (Gok2, Iceman, Stuttgart), as well as two Asian components, one
predominant in contemporary Central Asians and one in Southern Asians, analogous to
the ones seen in MA1

[Vesuvian Sky]

I am not sure if thee two cases are comparable.

They are because it shows how different sampling methods lead to different outcomes.




The first peer review article (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22748318) stated that 'these two Mesolithic individuals are not related to current populations from either the Iberian Peninsula or Southern Europe.' Later analysis, this time of a fully sequenced La Brana 1's genome only confirmed earlier finds - 'La Braña 1 individual clusters near, but not exactly within, Northern European populations such as CEU, Finns and Great Britons. Thus, we can rule out that the genetic variants of this ancient individual can be drawn from the distribution of extant Southern European populations such as Iberians or Tuscans'.


The peer review actually said this:


A worldwide genomic principal component analysis (PCA) with data from the 1000 Genomes Project [31] places La Bran ̃a 1 and 2 near, but not within the variation of current European populations (Figure S2). However, when compared exclusively to European populations, La Bran ̃a 1 and 2 fall closer to Northern European populations such as CEU and Great Britons than Southern European groups such as Iberians or Tuscans (Figure 3). With 1KGPomni chip [31] data, the PCA generates a similar pattern (Figure S3), although the general geographic structure is less clear because of the limited number of SNPs (see Supplemental Experimental Procedures).


I even screen grabbed the text:

http://i60.tinypic.com/10z2zv6.jpg

So it doesn't say anything about Finns but rather that La Brana plots with Central Europeans and Great Britons, populations that are to the West and hence Western when compared to Fins.

On the other hand MDLP-22 using a population sample of 276 gives closest genetic distance to NE Euro populations:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Estonian @ 4.471975
2 Latvian @ 8.962011
3 Lithuanian_V @ 10.481302
4 Russian @ 10.725829
5 Russian_Center @ 11.262810
6 Belarusian @ 11.289033
7 Russian_North @ 12.344108
8 Moldavian @ 12.631640
9 Polish @ 12.813877
10 Lithuanian @ 12.815555
11 Russian_V @ 13.504143
12 Russian_South @ 14.476156
13 Polish_V @ 14.660587
14 Russian_cossack @ 14.890244
15 Ukrainian-East @ 15.315020
16 Ukrainian @ 15.507590
17 Belarusian_V @ 16.128134
18 Mordovian @ 16.340195
19 Sorb @ 17.023962
20 Ukrainian-Center @ 17.950422

However the peer review also had shown this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GPh5_xses4o/T-yfvfiTB4I/AAAAAAAAE7A/BOTvHVxxkPg/s1600/brana_global.png

Que Dienekes:


So while they are more related to Northern than to Southern Europeans, they are well outside the range of modern European variation. Indeed, there is a strong hint of "Asian-shift" to these individuals.

Which is exactly the same thing we face with Kostenki which is we're dealing with relatives.







A quote from the supplementary paper:

Yeah, in addition to many, many, many other components. Here's his MDLP 23b admixture:


http://i61.tinypic.com/8vyycn.jpg

When you total his South Indian, Australoid, Austronesian, East Siberian, Melano Polynesian, Archaic African and African Pygmy you get 26.91% which is way more then his northerly European hunter gatherer component.

[Void]

I read today that Kostenki belonged to Y haplogroup C which would explain Australoid features.

It's slowly becoming clear that haplogroup C might have been all over Europe until they got wiped out (possibly by the Indo Europeans if not earlier) only leaving their mtDNA behind. I haven't been able to find the mtDNA of Kostenki, but a good guess would be either I, X, or W.

The connection with European DNA would be similar to that of Neanderthal DNA. Would be interesting to know what percentage of his DNA remains today.

[Vesuvian Sky]

I read today that Kostenki belonged to Y haplogroup C which would explain Australoid features.

It's slowly becoming clear that haplogroup C might have been all over Europe until they got wiped out (possibly by the Indo Europeans if not earlier) only leaving their mtDNA behind. I haven't been able to find the mtDNA of Kostenki, but a good guess would be either I, X, or W.

The connection with European DNA would be similar to that of Neanderthal DNA. Would be interesting to know what percentage of his DNA remains today.

See this thread:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?148310-GEDMATCH-Neanderthal-ADMIXTURE

And this one:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?148042-MDLP_K23b-aDNA-ADMIXTURE-RESULTS