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Drawing-slim
11-23-2014, 04:30 AM
Is it native to balkans? Illyrian or Slavic? Highest concentration in Bosnia. I read somewhere its presence in dinaric alps 7500!?

Drawing-slim
11-23-2014, 04:31 AM
Bump

Guapo
11-23-2014, 04:42 AM
I2a2 haplogroup is strongly correlated with the spread of Slavic languages. this Haplogroup, more importantly certain specific subclades of (largely unknown), were part of the Ethnogenesis of the Slav's, along with certain subclades of R1a and to a lesser extent, subclades of various other haplogroups; even some subclades of R1b depending on the Slavic Population one wishes to study. I2a2 is found in all Slavic Countries at varying frequencies, forming the second most common Haplogroup encountered after R1a.

ChocolateFace
11-24-2014, 01:27 AM
Is it native to balkans? Illyrian or Slavic? Highest concentration in Bosnia. I read somewhere its presence in dinaric alps 7500!?

These haplogroups were created way before there was any Slavic group. I'm sure it's not a specific slav type and can be found among non slavs also. Maybe something with the cromagnids of Europe who slavs absorbed.

Artek
11-28-2014, 08:28 PM
Is it native to balkans? Illyrian or Slavic? Highest concentration in Bosnia. I read somewhere its presence in dinaric alps 7500!?
Progress in the field of y-DNA testing (Y-DNA sequencing) allowed to confirm that previously done TMRCA estimates for I2-L621(Dinaric) were accurate and I2-DIN(L621) is young.
There are 90+ SNPs on the level of L621 what indicates long bottleneck that lasted through eneolithic, bronze age and big part of iron age period. So the whole Dinaric branch stems from one man who lived around the year of foundation of Rome in Central-Eastern Europe, most likely as a part of proto-Slavic people.

Frequency is meaningless and calculations show that diversity and TMRCA of I2-L621 decreases in the southerly direction. So the frequency in Balkans(Bosnia in particular) is a result of relatively recent founder effect, that happened at start of Slavic presence there and later strengthened regionally. It was just a chance, that Bosnia now is 60% I2, not 60% R1a.

As for now, L621* is found only in Poland and Western Ukraine, Polish haplotype was sequenced. The tree of Dinaric branch is available here http://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

So yes, it's slavic. Very young age allows for ethnic specification of this branch.

Rogala
01-13-2015, 08:31 PM
Polski with i2a2* y-dna here. According to all the information I could find, the lineage started with a clan system, and the progenitor was of unknown Germanic origin in 1109 (Biberstein). After the uprisings in Poland, in which my branch was sent to Siberia in its entirety, out of ~100 family members, 2 males made it back and restarted the lineage hiding in Austrian Galicia. Before the Siberian excursion, Polish information (old books/parish info) shows that my surname was most common in Lithuania and around central Poland (Warsaw) between 1500-1700.

One thing that was of particular interest to me, was that on the chromosome view in 23andme, the conservative "broadly northern european" and the speculative "French and German" (about 2%) was only highlighted on the last X chromosome. I don't know if this of any significance, still learning.

Artek
01-13-2015, 10:09 PM
Polski with i2a2* y-dna here. According to all the information I could find, the lineage started with a clan system, and the progenitor was of unknown Germanic origin in 1109 (Biberstein). After the uprisings in Poland, in which my branch was sent to Siberia in its entirety, out of ~100 family members, 2 males made it back and restarted the lineage hiding in Austrian Galicia. Before the Siberian excursion, Polish information (old books/parish info) shows that my surname was most common in Lithuania and around central Poland (Warsaw) between 1500-1700.

One thing that was of particular interest to me, was that on the chromosome view in 23andme, the conservative "broadly northern european" and the speculative "French and German" (about 2%) was only highlighted on the last X chromosome. I don't know if this of any significance, still learning.

I2a2 (now I2a1b or I2-M423) comprises Disles clade (L161.1) and Dinaric clade (L621). 23andMe doesn't test for both those SNPs.

Petros Houhoulis
01-13-2015, 10:12 PM
I2a2 haplogroup is strongly correlated with the spread of Slavic languages. this Haplogroup, more importantly certain specific subclades of (largely unknown), were part of the Ethnogenesis of the Slav's, along with certain subclades of R1a and to a lesser extent, subclades of various other haplogroups; even some subclades of R1b depending on the Slavic Population one wishes to study. I2a2 is found in all Slavic Countries at varying frequencies, forming the second most common Haplogroup encountered after R1a.

The first people who were named Slavs, a bunch of Balkaners. Your definition of Slavs exclude the North Slavs (Russians-Poles)...

Veneda
01-13-2015, 10:23 PM
Polski with i2a2* y-dna here. According to all the information I could find, the lineage started with a clan system, and the progenitor was of unknown Germanic origin in 1109 (Biberstein). After the uprisings in Poland, in which my branch was sent to Siberia in its entirety, out of ~100 family members, 2 males made it back and restarted the lineage hiding in Austrian Galicia. Before the Siberian excursion, Polish information (old books/parish info) shows that my surname was most common in Lithuania and around central Poland (Warsaw) between 1500-1700.

One thing that was of particular interest to me, was that on the chromosome view in 23andme, the conservative "broadly northern european" and the speculative "French and German" (about 2%) was only highlighted on the last X chromosome. I don't know if this of any significance, still learning.

Pan jest z Polski, jeśli mogę zapytać?

Skerdilaid
01-15-2015, 02:21 AM
Progress in the field of y-DNA testing (Y-DNA sequencing) allowed to confirm that previously done TMRCA estimates for I2-L621(Dinaric) were accurate and I2-DIN(L621) is young.
There are 90+ SNPs on the level of L621 what indicates long bottleneck that lasted through eneolithic, bronze age and big part of iron age period. So the whole Dinaric branch stems from one man who lived around the year of foundation of Rome in Central-Eastern Europe, most likely as a part of proto-Slavic people.

Frequency is meaningless and calculations show that diversity and TMRCA of I2-L621 decreases in the southerly direction. So the frequency in Balkans(Bosnia in particular) is a result of relatively recent founder effect, that happened at start of Slavic presence there and later strengthened regionally. It was just a chance, that Bosnia now is 60% I2, not 60% R1a.

As for now, L621* is found only in Poland and Western Ukraine, Polish haplotype was sequenced. The tree of Dinaric branch is available here http://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

So yes, it's slavic. Very young age allows for ethnic specification of this branch.
I would say most likely far fetched. Have a look at a map and see what populations inhabited danube basin (where nordtvedt places its origin) during Roman Empire. Poto-Slav where nowhere near there during Roman Empire. I am not saying that Slavs are not responsible for its distribution on the Balkans today, but they picked it up on their move. And also, who's to say that it did not descent down from Central Europe prior to Slavic invasion?

Musso
01-15-2015, 02:34 AM
Isn't E1b1b1a2 the most Balkan haplogroup?

Stefan_Dusan
01-15-2015, 02:46 AM
Your slavic invader Kurt :D

Stefan_Dusan
01-15-2015, 02:54 AM
Isn't E1b1b1a2 the most Balkan haplogroup?

Not really, it's no more Balkan than other neolithic haplogroups. How do you define most Balkan, longest in Balkan, most people in Balkan having it?

Musso
01-15-2015, 02:56 AM
Not really, it's no more Balkan than other neolithic haplogroups. How do you define most Balkan, longest in Balkan, most people in Balkan having it?

I define it as having the highest percentage of Balkan people that have the haplogroup.

Stefan_Dusan
01-15-2015, 02:57 AM
I define it as having the highest percentage of Balkan people that have the haplogroup.

Then probably I2a2b is most Balkan, south-slavs are by far the most numerous of people in the Balkan, but also Romanians have it in high amounts too if you count them as on the Balkan.

Musso
01-15-2015, 02:59 AM
Then probably I2a2b is most Balkan, south-slavs are by far the most numerous of people in the Balkan, but also Romanians have it in high amounts too if you count them as on the Balkan.

Well EV-13 is not really Slavic, and more Albanian/Greek if not mistaken. So I would say among non-Slavic Balkan people EV-13 is most dominant.

Stefan_Dusan
01-15-2015, 03:05 AM
Well EV-13 is not really Slavic, and more Albanian/Greek if not mistaken. So I would say among non-Slavic Balkan people EV-13 is most dominant.

It's somewhat weird to exclude the south-slavs from the Balkan and include the Greeks when they are often not considered to be part of the Balkans.

If you include Greeks with Albanians, it might actually be J2 that becomes the most frequent.

Musso
01-15-2015, 03:08 AM
It's somewhat weird to exclude the south-slavs from the Balkan and include the Greeks when they are often not considered to be part of the Balkans.

If you include Greeks with Albanians, it might actually be J2 that becomes the most frequent.

Hmm, I see,,,I've seen that EV-13 is most prevalent among Albanians especially of Kosovo, and parts of Greece are also high in EV-13. It seems EV-13 is most prevalent in SE Europe, since it's rare to see EV-13 in Northern or Western Europe. Of course Slavs make up majority of Eastern Europe, in which EV-13 is much less.

Stefan_Dusan
01-15-2015, 03:10 AM
Hmm, I see,,,I've seen that EV-13 is most prevalent among Albanians especially of Kosovo, and parts of Greece are also high in EV-13. It seems EV-13 is most prevalent in SE Europe, since it's rare to see EV-13 in Northern or Western Europe. Of course Slavs make up majority of Eastern Europe, in which EV-13 is much less.

E-V13 is just a neolithic haplogroup, it's not exactly rare elsewhere. It's 5% in Poland for example, and maybe 10% in Austria. E-V13 is also present in Armenians, as well as some middle eastern populations. However, unlike other neolithic groups like J2, or R1b it's more concentrated to Europe.

Musso
01-15-2015, 03:13 AM
E-V13 is just a neolithic haplogroup, it's not exactly rare elsewhere. It's 5% in Poland for example, and maybe 10% in Austria. E-V13 is also present in Armenians, as well as some middle eastern populations. However, unlike other neolithic groups like J2, or R1b it's more concentrated to Europe.

Didn't know it was 10% in Austrians,,,always viewed EV-13 as a SE Europe/Near East haplogroup...The thing is EV-13 was one of the later haplogroups to enter Europe from Africa.

Stefan_Dusan
01-15-2015, 03:17 AM
Didn't know it was 10% in Austrians,,,always viewed EV-13 as a SE Europe/Near East haplogroup...The thing is EV-13 was one of the later haplogroups to enter Europe from Africa.

E-V13 itself probably originated in Greece or Anatolia. However, various parent clades of E-V13 did originate in Africa and slowly spread into Europe.

Musso
01-15-2015, 04:07 AM
but to be honest, E-V13 doesn't look that pan-European:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/HgE1b1b1a2.png/800px-HgE1b1b1a2.png

ChocolateFace
01-15-2015, 04:16 AM
Many think that E-V13 mutated in the Balkans itself so it really is one of the true Balkan types.

Drawing-slim
01-15-2015, 04:17 AM
Many think that E-V13 mutated in the Balkans itself so it really is one of the true Balkan types.nice avatar:D

Musso
01-15-2015, 05:47 AM
Many think that E-V13 mutated in the Balkans itself so it really is one of the true Balkan types.

Looking at the distribution map it looks like a Albanian Haplogroup.

Sisak
01-15-2015, 06:29 AM
I2a2 haplogroup is haplogroup of Croats. Croatian genetic scientist Dragan Primorac and recognized scientist Peter A. Underhill came to conclusion that 30 percent of Croats are of Slavic origin, and the rest of Croats are natives of the Balkans. Croats living in the Western Balkans from the time of the Ice Age and are the people old 25,000 years. Croats from Bosnia - have even more compact aboriginal genes in a concentration unprecedented in the research, as much as 71 percent. It is surprising that this particular marker have a high percentage of the Germans (37.5%) and Saami (41%), people from a hundred thousand members, the only natives of Scandinavia, who live in the far north of the Kola Peninsula. They are much better known as - Lapps.
source
http://www.draganprimorac.com/hrvati-nisu-slaveni-nego-stari-balkanci/?lang=hr

Rogala
01-15-2015, 07:57 AM
I2a2 (now I2a1b or I2-M423) comprises Disles clade (L161.1) and Dinaric clade (L621). 23andMe doesn't test for both those SNPs.

Thanks for the clarification, do you have any suggestions for further testing the subclades? It seems the NG Geno 2.0 test offers the deepest haplogroup ydna testing according to reviews.

Stefan_Dusan
01-15-2015, 02:10 PM
Looking at the distribution map it looks like a Albanian Haplogroup.

That distribution map is not quite fully accurate, E-V13 peeks in many areas of Greece, like the Peloponnese. Overall, there are more Greeks with E-V13 than Albanians, mostly due to the fact there are more Greeks period.

You also cannot go by "concentrations", an example is I2a2b is mostly concentrated in Hercegovina, at 70%. Using the same logic, I2a2b is the haplogroup of the south-slavs, originated with them. When in reality, all slavs have it (around 20%). The diversity of E-V13 increases as you go south, and it's more diverse in Peloponnese than it is in Albania or Kosovo.

Stefan_Dusan
01-15-2015, 02:16 PM
Many think that E-V13 mutated in the Balkans itself so it really is one of the true Balkan types.

A parent clade of E, in this case E-V68 came probably somewhere to Greece. After some time, a mutation happened (many probably) and one that emerged was E-V13.

However, this happens to all haplogroups after some time in the Balkans, they get downstream mutations, where scientists could come up with a new grouping if they become widespread enough. E-V13 is nothing special in that regard, so in this sense we can talk about age, estimated time of E-V13 is 8,000 years old. So anyone with E-V13, your male founder was probably not in Europe 10,000 years ago.

Stefan_Dusan
01-15-2015, 02:17 PM
You just contradicted yourself.



Agree, but it would be more reasonable to call it a Balkan haplogroup rather than a Greek or Albanian haplogroup.

How is that a contradiction?

Stefan_Dusan
01-15-2015, 02:23 PM
Is it really that reasonable to conclude that E-V13 is Greek just because there are more Greeks?

Nope, and I didn't say that either, just that more Greeks have it (despite overall percentage in them being smaller).

The mutation that gave birth though happened in Greece, or Anatolia (probably Greece though) and that we can conclude based on the diversity of haplogroups of E-V13.

Simple put, all strains of E-V13 that Albanians have, so do Greeks. However, the opposite is not true. Greeks have certain clusters of E-V13 that is entirely absent in Albania or Kosovo.

Stefan_Dusan
01-15-2015, 02:29 PM
I'm very curious about the J2 too, what's your opinion on that? Care to give me more information about it? (In the Albanian-Greek context of course).

Tbh, I never looked into J2 too much. I just focused on the 3 most common haplogroups for Serbs, I2a2b, E-V13, and R1a1a. J2 is down some ways, so I never looked into it. It appears to have a similar distribution as E-V13 with the exception of being present outside of Europe in greater quantities.

However, there are subclades of J2, I think J2b2 for example is entirely within Europe.

Of course J and I are very linked, they are closer to each other than E. Probably J and I split somewhere in the Kavkaz mountains or Anatolia.

kabeiros
01-15-2015, 02:36 PM
I'm very curious about the J2 too, what's your opinion on that? Care to give me more information about it? (In the Albanian-Greek context of course).

I can give you some clues if you want. While Albanians have only J2b2, Greeks have J2b*, J2b1 and J2b2, therefor Greeks have more SNP diversity of this haplogroup. Non the less, some of the Greek J2b2 is because of Albanian influence

kabeiros
01-15-2015, 02:53 PM
This mentions nothing about J2b2, but J2b instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#Y-Dna

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b.gif

J2b2 is included in those J2b maps and Albanians have only J2b2 while Greeks have all of the subclades

ChocolateFace
01-15-2015, 03:09 PM
J2b2 is included in those J2b maps and Albanians have only J2b2 while Greeks have all of the subclades

There is one Albanian family so far that is J2b1 but most are j2b2 like you said.

kabeiros
01-15-2015, 03:14 PM
There is one Albanian family so far that is J2b1 but mostly j2b2. Really? Never saw an Albanian carrying J2b1 in any of the official Y-DNA papers, is it from 23andme? Eitherway, Albanians are overwhelmingly under J2b2 (they have 10-15% of it) while Greeks (and Serbs, Italians, Turks etc) have all the subclades and more importantly they have the ''father'' clade J2b*

Sisak
01-15-2015, 03:56 PM
I2a2 map
http://i61.tinypic.com/2be1ac.png

ChocolateFace
01-15-2015, 06:56 PM
Really? Never saw an Albanian carrying J2b1 in any of the official Y-DNA papers, is it from 23andme? Eitherway, Albanians are overwhelmingly under J2b2 (they have 10-15% of it) while Greeks (and Serbs, Italians, Turks etc) have all the subclades and more importantly they have the ''father'' clade J2b*

Yes they are j2b1 they have tested with 23andme.

Rogala
01-15-2015, 06:56 PM
Pan jest z Polski, jeśli mogę zapytać?

Tak, żyję w Ameryce a większość moich krewnych w Polsce.

Artek
01-15-2015, 07:17 PM
but to be honest, E-V13 doesn't look that pan-European:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/HgE1b1b1a2.png/800px-HgE1b1b1a2.png
It does. Just stop looking on old maps. Even this map doesn't show reality but it's much better.
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


Many think that E-V13 mutated in the Balkans itself so it really is one of the true Balkan types.

It wasn't found in any neolithic balkan culture and most neolithic cultures from other regions of Europe aside Cardial Ware in Spain. It's less true Balkan than C-V20 or G2a.

Artek
01-15-2015, 07:23 PM
I would say most likely far fetched. Have a look at a map and see what populations inhabited danube basin (where nordtvedt places its origin) during Roman Empire.
Nordtvedt can place origin of I2-Din anywhere he wants :). I would gladly trust him but I can't.

Poto-Slav where nowhere near there during Roman Empire. I am not saying that Slavs are not responsible for its distribution on the Balkans today, but they picked it up on their move.
If they picked it up, it also mysteriously spread in Belarus reaching today around 20% of a population.

altin
01-15-2015, 07:29 PM
[E-V13] It wasn't found in any neolithic balkan culture

What does this mean, that there are found no skeletons having it, or smth. else?

Artek
01-15-2015, 09:01 PM
What does this mean, that there are found no skeletons having it, or smth. else?
Yes. Take a look through this list: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml

Although there has to be more population studies concentrated on diffusion of haplogroup E using newest techniques of sequencing. To see if an E1b from region A can be generally ancestral to E1b from region B. And of course, even more ancient samples. Especially from neolithic Iberia. But there are more to come in a few months!

Duke
01-15-2015, 09:36 PM
Yes. Take a look through this list: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml

Although there has to be more population studies concentrated on diffusion of haplogroup E using newest techniques of sequencing. To see if an E1b from region A can be generally ancestral to E1b from region B. And of course, even more ancient samples. Especially from neolithic Iberia. But there are more to come in a few months!

hey tnx, i didnt know they made new tests on Balkan area

Paleolithic-megalithic powa :D

Borna
01-15-2015, 09:40 PM
So, which haplogroup is more invasive to Balkans, E-V13 or I2 ?

Duke
01-15-2015, 09:40 PM
So, which haplogroup is more invasive to Balkans, E-V13 or I2 ?

E-v13

Borna
01-15-2015, 09:42 PM
E-v13

So Albanians are not autochtonous to Balkans as they say ?

Duke
01-15-2015, 09:43 PM
So Albanians are not autochtonous to Balkans as they say ?

no, there was single find of E-v13, and thats in Spain

That makes them iberian :D

Artek
01-15-2015, 09:56 PM
So Albanians are not autochtonous to Balkans as they say ?
Autochtonous is a matter of a timeframe. There were various waves of earlier inhabitants back from historic times. Neolithic farmers in Balkans were not autochtonous in relation to hunters-gatherers but they were autochtonous in relation to Indo-Europeans. Albanians (or whichever name is more proper) were autochtonous in Balkans in relation to Slavic people.

Borna
01-15-2015, 09:59 PM
Autochtonous is a matter of a timeframe. There were various waves of earlier inhabitants back from historic times. Neolithic farmers in Balkans were not autochtonous in relation to hunters-gatherers but they were autochtonous in relation to Indo-Europeans. Albanians (or whichever name is more proper) were autochtonous in Balkans in relation to Slavic people.


But most of Balkan inhabbitants are I2 today.

altin
01-15-2015, 10:04 PM
Autochtonous is a matter of a timeframe. There were various waves of earlier inhabitants back from historic times. Neolithic farmers in Balkans were not autochtonous in relation to hunters-gatherers but they were autochtonous in relation to Indo-Europeans. Albanians (or whichever name is more proper) were autochtonous in Balkans in relation to Slavic people.

In those genetic results I've seen Neolithic (farmers) and Mesolithic (hunter-gathers?) percentages, but not Indo-European percentages. Why is that?

Artek
01-15-2015, 10:05 PM
But most of Balkan inhabbitants are I2 today.
It doesn't prove continuity. As I said, most of Balkan I2 cames from a single foundator that most likely didn't live in the Balkans. Branching is what matters.

Duke
01-15-2015, 10:43 PM
It doesn't prove continuity. As I said, most of Balkan I2 cames from a single foundator that most likely didn't live in the Balkans. Branching is what matters.

every subclade comes from single founder so does E-v13, and slavic r1a.. etc, also didnt that tracian find in bulgaria found R1a?

That would mean IEs were first in balkan before E-v13

Artek
01-15-2015, 11:12 PM
every subclade comes from single founder
Of course! I forgot to add "at about 600-900 B.C"

so does E-v13, and slavic r1a.. etc, also didnt that tracian find in bulgaria found R1a?
Thracian wasn't tested for y-dna. And as I said, If R1a is slavic, then R1b is celtic. But I don't think that many would agree with it :D

That would mean IEs were first in balkan before E-v13
Or E-V13 came with IEs, later gaining frequency by chance - especially in some certain isolated pockets. Or...maybe with some other, undetermined people.
But the lack of V13 from most sites is quite intriguing. If it was in the Balkans back then, it would've been brought deeper to the continent as well!
There is also another, though less likely possibility - scientists just weren't lucky :D

Skerdilaid
01-16-2015, 01:08 AM
Nordtvedt can place origin of I2-Din anywhere he wants :). I would gladly trust him but I can't.

If they picked it up, it also mysteriously spread in Belarus reaching today around 20% of a population.

I was just pointing out what scientists believe on regards to its origin, and which does not seem to back up what you were claiming. It does not matter what you trust, and nor does the 20% in Belarus prove anything today. We have had plenty of population movements since Roman era within Europe, in all directions...but if you like to believe that a proto-slav, father of this clade, lived in the Danube basin during that time frame, then go right ahead my friend :)

Stefan_Dusan
01-16-2015, 04:04 AM
no, there was single find of E-v13, and thats in Spain

That makes them iberian :D

However I2a2b wasn't found either at this time frame, but I2c was :D

Stefan_Dusan
01-16-2015, 04:11 AM
Anyways,

I2a2 probably originated in southern Europe, afterall Sardinians are almost 50% I2a2a.

However, I2a2b is a mutation of I2a2 only 2,000-,3000 years ago, and all science right now points to this occurring north of the Danube. However north of the Danube is not necessarily too far from the Balkan.

Loki
01-16-2015, 04:34 AM
I think you guys already know my opinion on this - it is native Balkanic and not Slavic (pre-Slavic) :)

Artek
01-16-2015, 09:43 AM
I was just pointing out what scientists believe on regards to its origin, and which does not seem to back up what you were claiming.
Ken Nordvedt, a professor emeritus in the Physics Department at Montana State University. Really?

It does not matter what you trust, and nor does the 20% in Belarus prove anything today. We have had plenty of population movements since Roman era within Europe, in all directions...but if you like to believe that a proto-slav, father of this clade, lived in the Danube basin during that time frame, then go right ahead my friend :)
So how could you explain why there is almost no I2-Din in areas of Italy where Illyrians settled but there are where Slavs(and especially Croats - region of Molise) have?
I don't count Arbereshe, because they are admixed.

But such discussion is starting to be pointless. Now let's wait for no I2-Din from pre-V centry Balkan remains.
I'm used to, that no-one wants to be a Slav. Many Balkaners suffer from that well.

Drawing-slim
01-16-2015, 10:05 AM
I think you guys already know my opinion on this - it is native Balkanic and not Slavic (pre-Slavic) :)

We also know that you're a naster trollxD

Drawing-slim
01-16-2015, 10:09 AM
I can live with the fact that my distant forefathers were croats and autosomally I am very albanian:d

Loki
01-16-2015, 10:37 AM
We also know that you're a naster trollxD

Yeah, but I'm not trolling this time :)

Skerdilaid
01-16-2015, 01:23 PM
Ken Nordvedt, a professor emeritus in the Physics Department at Montana State University. Really?
And you are professor who?


So how could you explain why there is almost no I2-Din in areas of Italy where Illyrians settled but there are where Slavs(and especially Croats - region of Molise) have?
I don't count Arbereshe, because they are admixed.

But such discussion is starting to be pointless. Now let's wait for no I2-Din from pre-V centry Balkan remains.
I'm used to, that no-one wants to be a Slav. Many Balkaners suffer from that well.

I did not say that it originated with Illyrians, which most likely it didn't because the origin is placed just North of them. Also the age of its mutation would explain why Illyrians did not carry it to Italy, but it could have later entered with the arrival of the Celts, Goths, and other invasions from North, and was also reinforced with the Slavs. It's about being logical buddy, nothing to do with what I want or don't want to be. I seem to sense the opposite, you seem hell bent to prove that it's Slavic when even the evidence suggests the contrary. There are also Mexicans with Spanish ancestry that seem to belong mostly to Dinaric "north":


Familytreedna New Mexico project
Torres Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-15 11 13 13 13 11 30
Chavez Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Torres Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Gallegos Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Torres Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Torres Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Chavez Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Martinez Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Herrera Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Torrez Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Torres Spain I2a2 13 24 16 12 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30
Chavez Spain I2a2 13 24 16 13 13-16 11 13 13 13 11 30


What do you think of this?

Artek
01-16-2015, 05:00 PM
And you are professor who?
I'm not. But his title concerning totally different subject is irrelevant.




It's about being logical buddy, nothing to do with what I want or don't want to be. I seem to sense the opposite, you seem hell bent to prove that it's Slavic when even the evidence suggests the contrary. There are also Mexicans with Spanish ancestry that seem to belong mostly to Dinaric "north":
Damn, it's fault of changes in naming. I2a2 in context of this thread-name is a Dinaric clade, namely I2a1b2 or I-L621. I2a2 that you've searched for is an I-M223
People should really start naming clades after SNPs

http://oi60.tinypic.com/i57omp.jpg
As you can see M223 has nothing to do with I2-Din

Sisak
01-16-2015, 05:18 PM
And you are professor who?



I did not say that it originated with Illyrians, which most likely it didn't because the origin is placed just North of them. Also the age of its mutation would explain why Illyrians did not carry it to Italy, but it could have later entered with the arrival of the Celts, Goths, and other invasions from North, and was also reinforced with the Slavs. It's about being logical buddy, nothing to do with what I want or don't want to be. I seem to sense the opposite, you seem hell bent to prove that it's Slavic when even the evidence suggests the contrary. There are also Mexicans with Spanish ancestry that seem to belong mostly to Dinaric "north":




What do you think of this?
Some Croatian historians believe that Croats first discovered America and that Mexico is named after the Croatian navigator Mesika.

Sisak
01-16-2015, 05:34 PM
^^
Genetics confirms this.

Here is one topic on the subject
http://www.balkanforum.info/f26/croatoan-31471/

Skerdilaid
01-18-2015, 12:40 AM
I'm not. But his title concerning totally different subject is irrelevant.

For now though he is the person with the most authority on I2, and I don't understand why are you so hung up on his diploma. Where he places the origin makes sense, and he surely is basing his theory on something concrete.



Damn, it's fault of changes in naming. I2a2 in context of this thread-name is a Dinaric clade, namely I2a1b2 or I-L621. I2a2 that you've searched for is an I-M223
People should really start naming clades after SNPs

http://oi60.tinypic.com/i57omp.jpg
As you can see M223 has nothing to do with I2-Din

I did not look into it to closely, but yeah snps are the correct way to look at things.

Drawing-slim
01-23-2015, 06:30 AM
But most of Balkan inhabbitants are I2 today.It just proves its not native balkan.

Shqipez
03-22-2015, 07:04 AM
Can you tell me more about the R1b and J2 in the balkans?