New Study Of Y-DNA Haplogroups Of The Caucasus With A Focus On Georgia

[Black Wolf]

This looks like an excellent new study on the distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups in the Caucasus and their correlations with certain linguistic groups with a focus mainly on Georgia. Now we know that so far the Vainakhs (Ingush and Chechens) are dominated by Y-DNA haplogroup J2a but from the samples tested from Georgia so far it is interesting that certain East Georgian mountaineers also seem to have quite high frequencies of J2 (most likely all J2a). This group stand out from the study in having a high J2 percentage.

Georgians/Georgian speakers. East Georgian mountaineers, historical province Tusheti

http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1053&context=humbiol_preprints

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2014/11/paternal-lineages-and-languages-in.html

R1b: Indo-European
R1a: Scytho-Sarmatian
J2: Hurro-Urartian
G2: Kartvelian

[Stefan_Dusan]

What about the presence of I2c, from what I understand its almost confined to only Georgian males who descend from the old nobel family. And is believed to come via Thracians to the Kavkaz.

I share on 23andMe with a Georgian descended from some famous nobel house. Me and him have a common ancestor maybe 1300 years ago.

[Black Wolf]

What about the presence of I2c, from what I understand its almost confined to only Georgian males who descend from the old nobel family. And is believed to come via Thracians to the Kavkaz.

I share on 23andMe with a Georgian descended from some famous nobel house. Me and him have a common ancestor maybe 1300 years ago.

I am not sure it looks like they only focused on the most common Y-DNA haplogroups there. I2c overall is quite minor in the Caucasus.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I am not sure it looks like they only focused on the most common Y-DNA haplogroups there. I2c overall is quite minor in the Caucasus.

I2c reaches its most common percentages in the Kavkaz though. its rare everywhere but more common in the Kavkaz.

[Black Wolf]

I2c reaches its most common percentages in the Kavkaz though. its rare everywhere but more common in the Kavkaz.

Yes but overall when it comes to the whole of the Caucasus it does not come close to the percentages of J2a, G2a and J1* in the Caucasus. It would be interesting if they included I2c though.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Yes but overall when it comes to the whole of the Caucasus it does not come close to the percentages of J2a, G2a and J1* in the Caucasus. It would be interesting if they included I2c though.

It is kind of shame though. I2c is one of those mysterious haplogroups that isn't well studied. It's not as 'sexy' because few people have it, and because of that few people push for it to be studied.

There is even a theory that I2c (and the entire I branch) emerged from the Kavkaz. If so that would put it, along with G2, as a pure Kavkazian haplogroup. Unlike R1a/R1b/andJ2 which are essentially invaders from the fertile crescent xD

[Black Wolf]

It is kind of shame though. I2c is one of those mysterious haplogroups that isn't well studied. It's not as 'sexy' because few people have it, and because of that few people push for it to be studied.

There is even a theory that I2c (and the entire I branch) emerged from the Kavkaz. If so that would put it, along with G2, as a pure Kavkazian haplogroup. Unlike R1a/R1b/andJ2 which are essentially invaders from the fertile crescent xD

Where is the evidence that G2 originated in the Caucasus? There is also no evidence really that the R1a and R1b in the Caucasus came from the Fertile Crescent either. I can see J2a coming to the Caucasus from the Fertile Crescent though.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Where is the evidence that G2 originated in the Caucasus? There is also no evidence really that the R1a and R1b in the Caucasus came from the Fertile Crescent either. I can see J2a coming to the Caucasus from the Fertile Crescent though.

Well neither R1a or R1b originated in the Kavkaz. R1a originated in Persia somewhere, so I imagine it migrated through the fertile crescent as well maybe other ports of entry.

I dunno about G2, I just read it somewhere. It's kind of believable though, only people who have G2 seem to be Kavkazians, Bulgarians, and Italians.

[Stefan_Dusan]

G2

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/G2_Y-haplogroup.jpg/1280px-G2_Y-haplogroup.jpg

[Black Wolf]

Well neither R1a or R1b originated in the Kavkaz. R1a originated in Persia somewhere, so I imagine it migrated through the fertile crescent as well maybe other ports of entry.

I dunno about G2, I just read it somewhere. It's kind of believable though, only people who have G2 seem to be Kavkazians, Bulgarians, and Italians.

Both R1a and R1b probably originated in Central Asia or far Eastern Europe not Persia. G2 most likely originated in the Fertille Crescent or Levant. That is why it is the dominant Y-DNA lineage of the early Neolithic farmers of Europe. There are many more groups of people who have G2 than just people from the Caucasus, Bulgarians and Italians.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Both R1a and R1b probably originated in Central Asia or far Eastern Europe not Persia. G2 most likely originated in the Fertille Crescent or Levant. That is why it is the dominant Y-DNA lineage of the early Neolithic farmers of Europe. There are many more groups of people who have G2 than just people from the Caucasus, Bulgarians and Italians.

I'm not sure, G2 distribution is very lopsided compared to J2. For example Albanians have very little to no G2. However all Europeans have J2 in some percentage, suggests to me that J2 and G2 spread in different ways and waves.

As to R1a, if it didn't originate in Persia, it originated somewhere close by. There is no way it originated in Eastern Europe since the clades there are younger than the ones in far east. There was some paper on some Persian trying to link Persian migrations to Croatians, but he had one small point, the R1a in Croatians is younger and upstream of the Persian ones.

[Black Wolf]

I'm not sure, G2 distribution is very lopsided compared to J2. For example Albanians have very little to no G2. However all Europeans have J2 in some percentage, suggests to me that J2 and G2 spread in different ways and waves.

As to R1a, if it didn't originate in Persia, it originated somewhere close by. There is no way it originated in Eastern Europe since the clades there are younger than the ones in far east. There was some paper on some Persian trying to link Persian migrations to Croatians, but he had one small point, the R1a in Croatians is younger and upstream of the Persian ones.

J2a and G2a did spread in different ways. G2a seems to have spread out into Europe earlier than J2a did. It really is not likely that R1a originated in Persia or anywhere in the Middle East because the early Indo-Europeans most likely were dominated by R1a and they did not come out of Persia but Eastern Europe most likely. R1a probably originated somewhere North of the Black Sea.

[Stefan_Dusan]

J2a and G2a did spread in different ways. G2a seems to have spread out into Europe earlier than J2a did. It really is not likely that R1a originated in Persia or anywhere in the Middle East because the early Indo-Europeans most likely were dominated by R1a and they did not come out of Persia but Eastern Europe most likely. R1a probably originated somewhere North of the Black Sea.

The originally Indo-Europeans came out of India not eastern europe. That's why they are called "Indo" Europeans, and afterall thats where all our languages are derived, from ancient Indian Sanskrit I believe.

[Black Wolf]

The originally Indo-Europeans came out of India not eastern europe. That's why they are called "Indo" Europeans, and afterall thats where all our languages are derived, from ancient Indian Sanskrit I believe.

I doubt that and there is no proof of that really. The Indo-Europeans most likely originated somewhere in Eastern Europe in the forest-steppe ecological zone.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I doubt that and there is no proof of that really. The Indo-Europeans most likely originated somewhere in Eastern Europe in the forest-steppe ecological zone.

Where is the proof for that?

There is a big proof, our language. It's all derived from Indian languages. It's believed Persians essentially (Sarmatians) brought R1a to Europe.

[Dombra]

The originally Indo-Europeans came out of India not eastern europe. That's why they are called "Indo" Europeans, and afterall thats where all our languages are derived, from ancient Indian Sanskrit I believe.

No! Nein! Niet! Does Balto-Slavic mean that Slavic came from Baltic? Nope, it means that they share a common ancestry, not that one is derived from one another. Same goes for Indo-European as the original language originated in Eastern Europe or Central Asia and split into several groups, groups that one later came to call Indo or European branches. If you wanted to call the Indo-Europeans by their urheimat then they will be called "North of Caspian sea linguistic family"

[Longbowman]

No! Nein! Niet! Does Balto-Slavic mean that Slavic came from Baltic? Nope, it means that they share a common ancestry, not that one is derived from one another. Same goes for Indo-European as the original language originated in Eastern Europe or Central Asia and split into several groups, groups that one later came to call Indo or European branches. If you wanted to call the Indo-Europeans by their urheimat then they will be called "North of Caspian sea linguistic family"

Was going to say this. Also, G2 has a long history in Europe and is associated with the Neolithic. Oetzi was G2.

[Black Wolf]

Where is the proof for that?

There is a big proof, our language. It's all derived from Indian languages. It's believed Persians essentially (Sarmatians) brought R1a to Europe.

''In the 20th century, Marija Gimbutas created the Kurgan hypothesis. The name is taken from the kurgans (burial mounds) of the Eurasian steppes. The hypothesis is that the Indo-Europeans were a nomadic tribe of the Pontic-Caspian steppe (now Eastern Ukraine and Southern Russia) and expanded in several waves during the 3rd millennium BC. Their expansion coincided with the taming of the horse. Leaving archaeological signs of their presence (see battle-axe people), they subjugated the peaceful European Neolithic farmers of Gimbutas' Old Europe. As Gimbutas' beliefs evolved, she put increasing emphasis on the patriarchal, patrilinear nature of the invading culture, sharply contrasting it with the supposedly egalitarian, if not matrilinear culture of the invaded, to a point of formulating essentially feminist archaeology. A modified form of this theory by JP Mallory, dating the migrations earlier to around 3500 BC and putting less insistence on their violent or quasi-military nature, remains the most widely held view of the Proto-Indo-European Urheimat.''

I am stressing this part of the paragraph. ''A modified form of this theory by JP Mallory, dating the migrations earlier to around 3500 BC and putting less insistence on their violent or quasi-military nature, remains the most widely held view of the Proto-Indo-European Urheimat.''

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans

''The rise of archaeogenetic evidence which uses genetic analysis to trace migration patterns also added new elements to the origins puzzle. In terms of genetics, the subclade R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) is the most commonly associated with Indo-European speakers. The subclade's parent Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup R1a1 is thought to have originated in either the Eurasian Steppe (north of the Black Sea and Caspian Sea) or the Indus Valley.[17] The mutations that characterize haplogroup R1a occurred ~10,000 years BP. Its defining mutation (M17) occurred about 10,000 to 14,000 years ago. Ornella Semino et al. propose a postglacial (Holocene) spread of the R1a1 haplogroup from north of the Black Sea during the time of the Late Glacial Maximum, which was subsequently magnified by the expansion of the Kurgan culture into Europe and eastward.[18] Data so far collected indicate that there are two widely separated areas of high frequency, one in Eastern Europe, around Poland and the Russian core, and the other in South Asia, around North India. The historical and prehistoric possible reasons for this are the subject of on-going discussion and attention amongst population geneticists and genetic genealogists, and are considered to be of potential interest to linguists and archaeologists also.''

Eastern Europe is more likely than the Indus valley.

[TheForeigner]

The originally Indo-Europeans came out of India not eastern europe. That's why they are called "Indo" Europeans, and afterall thats where all our languages are derived, from ancient Indian Sanskrit I believe.

Where did you hear this non-sense. It is claimed by scholars that it's either Ukraine and South Russia region or Asia Minor, where Indo-European languages and early speakers originated. The R1A also came with them and Balto-Slavs were among early Indo-Europeans( according to first and dominant theory) that split off from proto-Indo-Europeans. Aryans/proto-Indo-Iranians originated in Europe too. Sarmathians were not Persians and were essentially Europeans too.

[Black Wolf]

Also this is important to take into consideration about where R1a may have originated. Diversity tends to correlate with an older age usually. Both the Indo-European languages are R1a most likely are older in Eastern Europe than in India.

''Thus, it seems the SNP diversity of South Asian R1a-M17 is low, and decreases from Pakistan, North India and Bangladesh to South India and Sri Lanka. In comparison, there are only 12 European R1a individuals in the 1000 Genomes sample, and they represent all the major subclades of this haplogroup: R1a-Z283, R1a-Z93 and R1a-L664. Therefore, sampling bias can't be used as an argument for the more diverse result from Europe.''

http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2013/05/south-asian-r1a-in-1000-genomes-project_15.html

[Black Wolf]

Good news. There have been some updates with this study and the Y-DNA results have been shown to be accurate. Haplogroup J2a seems to be quite common in Omalo in Tusheti.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omalo

[Black Wolf]

What about the presence of I2c, from what I understand its almost confined to only Georgian males who descend from the old nobel family. And is believed to come via Thracians to the Kavkaz.

I share on 23andMe with a Georgian descended from some famous nobel house. Me and him have a common ancestor maybe 1300 years ago.

BTW I have found out that I2c is indeed present on Georgia and seems to be the second most common haplogroup found among the Khevsurs that have been tested so far. It is second to J2a among Khevsurs tested so far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khevsureti

[Sky earth]

Funny that Ossetians are mostly native Caucasian G2 carriers whereas Turkic speakers like Karachays are mostly "Indo-Iranian" R1a carriers

[Black Wolf]

Funny that Ossetians are mostly native Caucasian G2 carriers whereas Turkic speakers like Karachays are mostly Indo-Iranian R1a carriers

Yeah Ossetians seem to mainly be descended from native peoples of the Caucasus when it comes to Y-DNA.

[Eli B]

Hi Can you Classify Haplogroup J2 M47? Is it Hattic=Hattian or Hurro-Urartu? Thanks

[Stefan_Dusan]

BTW I have found out that I2c is indeed present on Georgia and seems to be the second most common haplogroup found among the Khevsurs that have been tested so far. It is second to J2a among Khevsurs tested so far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khevsureti

I asked my Georgian paternal relative (about ~1500 years ago we had the same male ancestor) on 23andMe, he is also one of the chief administrators of the I2c project and in contact with many other genetic projects.

According to him only 2 Khevsurs tested so far had I2c, but depending on how many were tested this could be a big fraction. He himself is from the Meshki nobel family and it's believed the Khevsurs originate from them.

I asked him about the Dargins, on wikipedia they are listed as 58% belonging to haplogroup I, which I assumed would be all if not almost all I2c. But he told me this is an urban legend and the original study, he doubts their methodology, so jury is out.

Also, while not important, other strains of I were observed out of Europe. I2a2 was observed in Kurds, and I2b1 was observed in 1 Georgian. Perhaps I was much farther spread than we believed before neolithic farmers from the fertile crescent began replacing them with superior farming technology.

[Black Wolf]

Hi Can you Classify Haplogroup J2 M47? Is it Hattic=Hattian or Hurro-Urartu? Thanks

We need ancient Y-DNA from the Near East and Anatolia before we can do that.

[Eli B]

Here is my Hypothisis.

Since Urartu + Hurrians + Caucasus have Isolated Languages, that tells us these languages & Ethnicities are the first of its kind in that region where the Caucasians Isolated themselves from the beginning of time & I mean when The Patriarch Noah Ark settled on Mount Ararat.

Gomer's son Togarmah & his Sons; Haik, Kartlos, Bardos, Movakos, Lekos, Heros, Caucus & Egros inherited this area around Lake Van & gave their names to the same region.

And after they got the region, they started to establish their Kingdoms after their names, including; Kingdoms of Armenia (Hayastan), Georgia, Iberia, Albania, Lekia, Hereti, Colchis, Kartli……etc.

Haplogroup J2 M47 is so rare and hard to be found & Scientists don’t pay too much attention to it, but why?! If you go to the www.Gentis.ru you will see the high emphasis of M47 in 2 main regions;

1) Esfahan Iran 2) North Syria & Lebanon (Amanus Mount + Taurus Mount = Cilicia) where the Urarteans (Hurrians) Moved After being attacked It seems that The Lineage started from Lake Van (where the heart of Urartu) following only the Taurus Mountains going down to Turkey, but in the other hand, spreading wide by going up, why?

The possible answer is we know Urarteans & Caucasus People had different languages & Ethnicities that did not give them the ability to mingle with the other people (Lower Lands) but themselves, therefore they were cousins, Japhetic people with Japhetic Languages spreading only in territories where Japhetic people are.

And the same thing in the case of The Assyrian Empire (Semitic) when it Invaded Syria (Semitic), they got assimilated very fast together and found No difficulty on Culture and Language level, because they share the same Ethnicity with similar languages, Assyrian Language = Aramaic Language (Semitic).

But when Assyrian Empire & Medes attacked Urartu Kingdom, Some Urarteans retreated to the north, some to the east & west, where at the end of The Urartu Kingdom, we see the emergence of most of the Caucasian Kingdoms The Lineage M47 is following The Taurus Mount down to Cilicia (Kezowatna) Turkey then Dropping to North Syria up to North Lebanon Where we Find Lebanese Provinces, Cities, Areas Named As;

-Koura (Kura River) -Chtura (Chiatura Georgia) -Khaldi Chalybes (Chaldia) Urartu God (Ḫaldi) -Yammuni (Yamna Culture) -Laitani River (Latino) -Denniee (Adannia in Cilicia Turkey) -Kula (Gole=Kola Turkey) -Sarafand (Saravand) -Berdawne (Bardos) -Shouph (Shoupa)

History

Now we go to Esfahan Iran where shah abbas I departed hundreds of thousands of Georgians from Kakheti to Esfahan when he shifted his capital from Qazvin to Esfahan in 1598 & killed 60 t0 70,000 Kakhetian Peasants in 1614. & before him, shah Tahmasp I, invaded Caucasus & departed Tens of thousands of Armenians, Georgians & Circassians.

And the same thing happened when shah abbas II in 1659 departed again 130,000 - 200,000 Georgians from Kakheti to Iran & killed thousands of Kakhetians when the Kingdom of Kakheti came against him.

I Asked Family Tree DNA Company about the origin of M47, did it come from The Caucasus like its Brother M67? I got yes. M47 & M67 are Native to The Caucasus, when we see the M47 map we notice it’s the area East Turkey (Lake Van) between the 2 Mountains; Taurus Mount & Caucasus Mount, where Togarmah inherited his Area. Vainakh (Chechen & Ingush) People came on M67 & they go back to The Durdzuks or Durdzuketia Kingdom which descended from its founder Caucus son of Torgom son of Gomer son of Japheth.

And the same thing for its branch M92 that concentrated in the area where The Etruscans left west Turkey to Europe, that scientist said about the possible origin of The Etruscans where it lies in the Caucasus, and even for the Thracians who along with Etruscans Descended from Tiras son of Japheth. Again the 2 Lineages in the beginning they started in the Heart of Caucasus; Around Mount Ararat (Lake Van), where Togarmah & his Sons lived; Haik, Kartlos, Bardos, Movakos, Lekos, Heros, Caucus, Egros.

The Quastion Is it possible that M47 is one of The Nakh Nations (Legendary Caucus);

-Sophene -Gargarei People -Èrs and Hereti (Kigdom of Hereti = East Georgia Kakheti, West Azerbaijan & North Armenia) -Kakh and Kakheti -Tsanars and Tzanaria -Gligvs -Dvals and Dvaleti -Malkhs -Durdzuks and Durdzuketia -Kists -Isadiks -Khamekits -Arshtins

Note: this lineage goes back to Kakheti where it was exterminated and departed in thousands to Esfahan, where also Kakheti was home for Nakh People.

Or Armenian Nations (Legendary Haik);

Haik, Haig (grandson of Tiras); -Amasya (North Turkey & Armenia) -Ara (Arania East Turkey) -Aram (Armenia & Possible Urmia) -Aramais (Amanus Mount) -Armanak (Armatana & Armeniac N. Turkey) -Gegham (Geghama Lake=Sevan) -Harma (Possible Harmia, Armia, Urmia) Ara Geghetsik, Ara Kardos, Anushavan, Paret, Arbag, Zaven, Varnas, Sour, Havanag Vashtak, Haikak, Ampak, Arnak, Shavarsh, Norir, Vestam, Kar, Gorak, Hrant, Endzak, Geghak, Horo, Zarmair, Perch, Arboun, Hoy, Houssak, Kipak, Skaiordi (Horo might be the Patriarch of The Hurrians) These cover the 24th to 9th centuries BC in Moses' chronology, indebted to the Chronicon of Eusebius.

There follows a list of legendary kings, covering the 8th to 4th centuries BC: •Parouyr, Hratchia, Pharnouas, Pachouych, Kornak, Phavos, Haikak II, Erouand I, Tigran I, Vahagn, Aravan, Nerseh, Zareh, Armog, Bagam, Van, Vahé.

Or Georgian Nations (Legendary Kartlos);

The sons of Kartlos are listed as: -Mtskhetos, ----- Uplos (Mtskheta) -Gardabos, (Gardabani) -Kakhos, (Kakheti) -Kukhos, (Kukheti) -Gachios, (Gachiani) -Uphlos, (Uplistsikhe) -Odzrkhos, (Odzrkhe) -Javakhos, (Javakheti) Or From Kakheti Province where it used to be Kingdom of Hereti (Legendary Heros)

[Longbowman]

Read up to 'the patriarch Noah,' then stopped.