Mongoloid/Asian genes in Russian people.

[Ilya.S]

Many people think that Russians have a lot of Mongoloid/Asian genes, but I wouldn't agree with that.
For example Balanovskaja(Балановская), Russian anthropologist and Genetist writes that the amount of East-Eurasian genes in Russians is only 2 percent while Poles have 1,5 percent, Norwegians 0,6 percent, Karelians 4,8 percent and Icelanders 0,7 percent ...
The average percentage of these genes among Europeans is 3,6 percent, so the Russian average is even lower than the European average.

For people who understand Russian this could be interesting to read, maybe it's also possible to find it in English but I don't know where:
http://img215.imageshack.us/i/russianstatars1.jpg/
http://img338.imageshack.us/i/russianstatars2.jpg/
http://img534.imageshack.us/i/russianstatars3.jpg/
http://img534.imageshack.us/i/russianstatars4.jpg/
Е. В. Балановская, О. П. Балановский. Русский генофонд на Русской равнине.
E. V. Balanovskaja, O.P. Balanovskij. Russian gene pool on Russian plain.

[Cato]

Some Russians may have Asiatic genes from Kipchaks, Mongols, or whomever.

Some Americans may have Amerindian genes from Amerindian tribes- myself possibly, from the Cayuga and Seneca tribes of Iroquois Confederacy. I don't know if it's true or just a romanticized, familial yarn. If it is, cool, but it doesn't make me an Iroquois (I'm not trying to preserve what Amerindian I may have in my blood and only spme jackass thinks that he's 100% pure anyways); if not, no worries. I am what I am. :)

Russia is so vast, with so many different groups, who's to really say who has who as an ancestor. As I understand it, Temujin has many millions of offspring- even as far west as Eastern Europe.

[The Khagan]

Some Russians may have Asiatic genes from Kipchaks, Mongols, or whomever.

Some Americans may have Amerindian genes from Amerindian tribes- myself possibly, from the Cayuga and Seneca tribes of Iroquois Confederacy. I don't know if it's true or just a romanticized, familial yarn. If it is, cool, but it doesn't make me an Iroquois (I'm not trying to preserve what Amerindian I may have in my blood and only spme jackass thinks that he's 100% pure anyways); if not, no worries. I am what I am. :)

Russia is so vast, with so many different groups, who's to really say who has who as an ancestor. As I understand it, Temujin has many millions of offspring- even as far west as Eastern Europe.

;)

[Osweo]

WE ARE NOT ASIATICS... ALAS...

The proportion of east-Eurasian haplogroups in the Russian population constitutes only 2% (see part 6.2). In other words, of very minor scale, and almost as small as in the Polish genepool (1.5%) or in northern Europe where a 'Tataro-Mongol imprint' is definitely ruled out (Norwegians at 0.6%, Icelanders 0.7%, Karelians 4.8% and so on). The average 'background' frequency of east-Eurasian haplogroups in Europe is around 3.6%. I.e. the proportion in the Russian genepool (2%) is even less than the 'European average', and so the Mongol component among Russians turns out not simply to be zero, but even of a negative value. We therefore see no impact of the Mongol invasion on the Russian genepool, or else we would have to admit its presence among Poles, Norwegians, Karelians and other genepools of Europe.

It's not a very 'scientific' article, being more concerned with the historical side of the question and the refutation of old myths current among the Russian lay community. It seems restricted to Y and Mitochondrial data. It remarks upon the minimal Far Eastern component even among the Kazan Tatars, and puts the 'Asian' influences above down predominantly to Uralic causes.

Is that a fair summary, Илья? I only skimmed it really, trying to find the most important stuff.

[Arsenij]

Some Russians may have Asiatic genes from Kipchaks, Mongols, or whomever

Genetics and anthropology fortunately/unfortunately dont confirm it.


It remarks upon the minimal Far Eastern component even among the Kazan Tatars, and puts the 'Asian' influences above down predominantly to Uralic causes.


From a part I can agree with you, anthropologically little asiatic/uralic influence marked by anthropologists only in south-eastern russian Volga populations, ut it's very little considering it in a context of all Russian population.

[Laudanum]

Genetics and anthropology fortunately/unfortunately dont confirm it.

I believe he just meant that some Russians (especially those in the east) might have some mongoloid blood, not Russians in general. ;)

[Cato]

I believe he just meant that some Russians (especially those in the east) might have some mongoloid blood, not Russians in general. ;)

That's what I said exactly: some Russians, not Russians as a whole.

[hajduk]

some

Yep. The Russian empire covered vast expanses of geographic territory and encompassed many different ethnic groups: jews, mongols, cossacks, finns, estonians, uzbeks, tatars etc.. Surely russians interbred with all of these ethnic groups.

[Agrippa]

The only final proof can come from genetic studies, simple as that.

Here is a new one which compared Latin American with European populations, you can see a slight Mongoloid or Negroid admixture can occur and individually vary among most Europeans, but on average, even if its still very low, there seem to be regional differences:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/S-KnCZIx22I/AAAAAAAACYI/9P0IgxrGU5U/s1600/frappe_hispanic.jpg

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/

That moderate amount comes as no surprise.

[Ilya.S]

Yep. The Russian empire covered vast expanses of geographic territory and encompassed many different ethnic groups: jews, mongols, cossacks, finns, estonians, uzbeks, tatars etc.. Surely russians interbred with all of these ethnic groups.

I don't know, for example cossacks aren't even an ethnic group, they are a millitary community.
There might have been some interbreeding but surely not on a large scale.
The group that had the biggest influence on Russian genetics I think are Finno-Ugric peoples not mongols or jews...

[Agrippa]

for example cossacks aren't even an ethnic group

And some Cossacks have more Nordoid traits than the average Russians...

[Äike]

I don't know, for example cossacks aren't even an ethnic group, they are a millitary community.
There might have been some interbreeding but surely not on a large scale.
The group that had the biggest influence on Russian genetics I think are Finno-Ugric peoples not mongols or jews...

Indeed, it's proven that NW-Russians are genetically very similar to Finno-Ugrics. Thus NW-Russians have lighter features, then most other Russians.

I remember that a while ago in high school, some recognized Estonian historian gave a speech in our school about Finno-Ugric history and estimated that about half of Europid Russians have Finno-Ugric heritage.

[vp01]

karl, stop posting ur disinformating bullshit.i know, u hate russains, but whatever ;)
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6684/60550356.jpg

[Äike]

karl, stop posting ur disinformating bullshit :D i know, u hate russains, but whatever :D
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6684/60550356.jpg

I only dislike the immigrants here and the majority of them are Russian, thus you could say that I dislike some Russians.

But I consider the Russians in NW-Russia to be my blood brothers. Culturally they are completely different, though.

You could argue that 50% of the Europid Russian population doesn't have Finno-Ugric origins, even I doubt that.

But you can't argue the fact that NW-Russians are Finnic.

From a genetical viewpoint, the closest people to Estonians are Latvians and then NW-Russians.

[vp01]

Karl, come to russia please, and u will have no doubts that russian have _VERY_ small percentage of finno-ugrian blood...


From a genetical viewpoint, the closest people to Estonians are Latvians and then NW-Russians.

some NW russian are really close to F-U, but they are like 5% (or close to that) of whole population

[Äike]

Karl, come to russia please, and u will have no doubts that russian have _VERY_ small percentage of finno-ugrian blood...

are you blind to see picture i posted? :)

I have seen it before, do you think that 1 picture proves anything? You're naive :D

As it's said: "Finns don't have genes of other Europeans, while other Europeans have Finnish genes."

Thus Finland looks isolated, especially if the NE-Finns with Lappish admixture were posted. The Lapps aren't genetically close to anyone. I did once read that Finns are genetically closer to Italians, then to the Lapps.


Adversus solem ne loquitor (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=72806&postcount=9)

[Jarl]

From a part I can agree with you, anthropologically little asiatic/uralic influence marked by anthropologists only in south-eastern russian Volga populations, ut it's very little considering it in a context of all Russian population.



Looking at the Russian emigrees in the UK, there is a perceptible minority with certain Asiatic features (call it Mongoloid, Uralic or whatever.). I do not think they comprise more than 1-5% at most. Anyway, from my experience, I can tell they mostly descend from migrants to Moscow or other large urban areas. It would be interesting to know where they originally came from.

Southern Volga basin, Astrachan are and some parts of Sub-Caucasia, with the Mongol-Kalmyk minority could be good cadidates.

[Ilya.S]

Looking at the Russian emigrees in the UK, there is a perceptible minority with certain Asiatic features (call it Mongoloid, Uralic or whatever.). I do not think they comprise more than 1-5% at most. Anyway, from my experience, I can tell they mostly descend from migrants to Moscow or other large urban areas. It would be interesting to know where they originally came from.

Southern Volga basin, Astrachan are and some parts of Sub-Caucasia, with the Mongol-Kalmyk minority could be good cadidates.

Just to mention: not all the people who say that they are Russians are actualy Russians, for example some people from former soviet republics or russian minorities call themselves Russian too.

[Agrippa]

karl, stop posting ur disinformating bullshit.i know, u hate russains, but whatever ;)
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6684/60550356.jpg

Where do you have that from?

[Äike]

Just to mention: not all the people who say that they are Russians are actualy Russians, for example some people from former soviet republics or russian minorities call themselves Russian too.

The minorities here call themselves Estonian in Western-Europe and Northern-Europe. It's quite funny as a large part of them doesn't speak Estonian. :) While most of the minorities among Russians have been assimilated dozens of generations ago.

[hajduk]

The minorities here call themselves Estonian in Western-Europe and Northern-Europe. It's quite funny as a large part of them doesn't speak Estonian. :)

but the european part of Russia is richer than Estonia, why russians come in Estonia? :eek:

[Cato]

Mongol or Eurasian genes in Russians is as surprising to me as Amerindian genes in European Americans- basically a non-issue, considering that said genes probably entered into the predominantly Europid gene pool a couple of centuries ago. Unless one is a Nazi/neo-Nazi freak obsessed with an untrue conception of racial and lineageal purity then being one of the many progeny from the loins of the Great Khan, who was only the greatest conqueror in world history, is quite an honor.

[Ilya.S]

but the european part of Russia is richer than Estonia, why russians come in Estonia? :eek:
Most of the present-day Russians in Estonia are migrants from the Soviet era and their descendants.

[Äike]

but the european part of Russia is richer than Estonia, why russians come in Estonia? :eek:

Are you high? :p

Even in ~2006 when Putin made that campaign that every Russian who returns to Russia gets a free home and a job, not a single Russian from Estonia went back to their great Motherland.

Estonia is a lot richer, they'll rather stay here and whine about non-existent discrimination and enjoy the benefits of living in a civilized Northern-European country.

[Humanophage]

Estonian HDI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index) - 0.883
Muscovite HDI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_federal_subjects_by_HDI) - 0.907
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/images/smiles/emo-emot-smug.gif

Estonian GDP (PPP) per capita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita) - $17,908
Muscovite GDP (PPP) per capita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_GDP) - $30,711
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/images/smiles/emo-emot-smug.gif

Estonian average salary (http://www.baltic-course.com/eng/analytics/?doc=20817) - €700
Muscovite average salary (http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/08-09-2009/109158-moscow-0) - €660
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/9/94/Rageface.png/105px-Rageface.png Damn you, Estonia, we hate your freedom!


On a more serious note, white Zimbabweans and South Africans don't really leave their countries either in spite of facing extreme danger every day. It's quite difficult to start one's life anew. I would approve of them coming back though.

On the subject of East or Central Asian admixtures in Russians (or the lack thereof), I've always been using this research as a guideline: http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297%2807%2900025-0

[Äike]

Estonian HDI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index) - 0.883
Muscovite HDI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_federal_subjects_by_HDI) - 0.907
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/images/smiles/emo-emot-smug.gif

Estonian GDP (PPP) per capita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita) - $17,908
Muscovite GDP (PPP) per capita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_GDP) - $30,711
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/images/smiles/emo-emot-smug.gif

Estonian average salary (http://www.baltic-course.com/eng/analytics/?doc=20817) - €700
Muscovite average salary (http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/08-09-2009/109158-moscow-0) - €660
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/thumb/9/94/Rageface.png/105px-Rageface.png Damn you, Estonia, we hate your freedom!


Comparing cities with countries is a very dumb thing to do...

Estonia is clearly the most advanced and richest ex-USSR country, that's a fact.

http://mapsof.net/uploads/static-maps/europe_gdp_ppp_per_capita_map.png

Estonia HDI: 0.883

Russia HDI: 0.817

and the actual average wage(by the most recent statistics) of Estonia is ~790 euros. It's even higher in Tallinn, if we want to compare cities.

[Humanophage]

Comparing cities with countries is a very dumb thing to do...
In the Belgian Empire, would you take Congo into account when considering the per capita income of Belgium? Notice how I'm not making any witty observations about Moscow being ten times as large as Estonia, totally lacking any natural resources of her own save for a bit of wood, and still managing to pull off being more or less equally opulent. Not to mention holding a population ten times as large as its own in its iron grip. Think Estonia could do to Moscow what Moscow does to the Russian Federation?


Anyway, I'd much rather hear commentaries on Two Sources of the Russian Patrilineal Heritage in Their Eurasian Context. It quite clearly points at relatively minor Finno-Ugric admixtures among non-Northern Russians, and shows no non-European admixtures. Is the research regarded as unreliable? I personally can't find a better one which would consider distinctions between, say, Perm and Krasnodar.

I'm currently browsing the directory for free haplogroup test results, and I've only found two blokes with a 'Mongoloid' haplogroup (Q, it's wide-spread pretty much everywhere though) among hundreds: http://www.genofond.ru/default2.aspx?s=0&p=278

[Nezhegol]

Comparing cities with countries is a very dumb thing to do...

Estonia is clearly the most advanced and richest ex-USSR country, that's a fact.

http://mapsof.net/uploads/static-maps/europe_gdp_ppp_per_capita_map.png

Estonia HDI: 0.883

Russia HDI: 0.817

and the actual average wage(by the most recent statistics) of Estonia is ~790 euros. It's even higher in Tallinn, if we want to compare cities.

...and 20% unemployed:cool:

[EWtt]

The minorities here call themselves Estonian in Western-Europe and Northern-Europe. It's quite funny as a large part of them doesn't speak Estonian. :)

Interesting phenomenon indeed. Must be some sort of an inferiority complex or belief that Russians have a bad reputation in "the West"?

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Northwestern Russians look a bit northern European because of their Finnic and Baltic genetical heritage while central and south Russians look different and can be spotted miles away. They have that darker complexion.

[Osweo]

Northwestern Russians look a bit northern European because of their Finnic and Baltic genetical heritage while central and south Russians look different and can be spotted miles away. They have that darker complexion.

When a Finn says 'darker', this of course means 'normal' to an Englishman. ;)

But anyway; where is 'central Russia' to you, MRM? The Provinces of Smolensk, Moskva, Kaluga, Vladimir, Tula, Ryazan? These places have considerable Baltic and Finnic substrate too, you know. Some Finnics and Baltics are darker than others, though. :rolleyes::p

[Curtis24]

The field of archaeogenetics is still very new and thus very inconclusive. I wouldn't trust any genetic study, at least at this point in time, to prove or disprove Mongol influence in Russia.

Logically, there must have been at least *some* influence. Men are men and many will exploit their power to have sex with women, especially in the pre-modern era which was much more brutal than nowadays.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

When a Finn says 'darker', this of course means 'normal' to an Englishman. ;)

But anyway; where is 'central Russia' to you, MRM? The Provinces of Smolensk, Moskva, Kaluga, Vladimir, Tula, Ryazan? These places have considerable Baltic and Finnic substrate too, you know. Some Finnics and Baltics are darker than others, though. :rolleyes::p

One must remember to keep the apples an pears unmixed.

There is a huge discrepancy between the Finno Ugrian speaking groups, just like within the Indo European speaking peoples. Nobody speaks of Bulgarians and Icelanders in the same sentence, so that's why we should not speak i.e. about Vepses and Udmurts as if they are similar people because they are not.

When speaking of NW Russia, we are speaking about mostly Baltic Finnish (i.e. Veps) genetical influence. They are the fairest of all Russias peoples.
In Vologda it's Permian Finnic (i.e. Komi) and in Moscow it's Volga Finnic (i.e. now extinct groups Merya). And yes, the degree of darkness increasess the further south/central Russia one goes.

It's estimated that over 30 million Russians have various Finno Ugrian admixture at different levels. Of those the Baltic Finnish influence overall is among the smallest, but fairly high at regional levels, as attested by genetics.

Needless to say, NW Russia, traditionally up until quite recently, ~800-200 years, have been clean unpolluted non Slavic lands.
Today it's severely polluted by various Russian ethnic riff raff.

The land is still occupied by Slavic foreigners.

[Äike]

One must remember to keep the apples an pears unmixed.

There is a huge discrepancy between the Finno Ugrian speaking groups, just like within the Indo European speaking peoples. Nobody speaks of Bulgarians and Icelanders in the same sentence, so that's why we should not speak i.e. about Vepses and Udmurts as if they are similar people because they are not.

I completely agree. Anyone looking at the Finno-Ugric group as a single entity is just dumb. It's the same as looking at Indo-Europeans as a single entity. You can find Swedes and Gypsies in the Indo-European group, but no one talks about them in a single sentence.

There's a difference between Baltic-Finns and Komis for example. Or between Finns and Udmurts. Finns are the blondest people in the world, while the Udmurts are the most redheaded people in the world.

If anyone thinks that all Finno-Ugrics are the same, then he/she may as well start thinking that there are no differences between Irishmen and Kurds, who are both members of the Indo-European family.

[esaima]

There is a huge discrepancy between the Finno Ugrian speaking groups, just like within the Indo European speaking peoples. Nobody speaks of Bulgarians and Icelanders in the same sentence, so that's why we should not speak i.e. about Vepses and Udmurts as if they are similar people because they are not.
.
In fact Finno Ugrians aren´t as different as Indo Europeans.Maris and Finns, not talking about Finns and Vepses, are closer to each other than Icelanders and Bulgarians liguistically, culturally and athropologically.
They language family they belong is Uralic, not Finno-Ugric.If you talk about Indo-Europeans you should compare them with Uralics.

[Äike]

In fact Finno Ugrians aren´t as different as Indo Europeans.

Actually they are, the difference is that a very large part of Finno-Ugrians have been assimilated or exterminated. Even 1000 years ago, it is possible that that there were tens if not hundreds of different tribes, like the Veps or Udmurts. They disappeared without a trace.

Just because the Finno-Ugrian population is small, doesn't mean that we are automatically all similar.

Icelanders and Bulgarians are linguistically, definitely closer than Estonians and Hungarians.

[esaima]

Icelanders and Bulgarians are linguistically, definitely closer than Estonians and Hungarians.

I dont think that Icelaners and Bulgarians are linguistically closer than Estonians and Hungarians. Definitely Maris and Mordvinians (Volga-Finnics) and Estonians are closer than Icelaners and Bulgarians.

[Äike]

I dont think that Icelaners and Bulgarians are linguistically closer than Estonians and Hungarians. Definitely Maris and Mordvinians (Volga-Finnics) and Estonians are closer than Icelaners and Bulgarians.

Estonians are in the Finno group, Hungarians in the Ugric group.

Comparing the Estonian language with Hungarians is the same as comparing Persian(Indo) with English(European).

Icelanders and Bulgarians are both in the Balto-Slavo-Germanic subgroup, which divides into Proto-Germanic and Balto-Slavic.

Estonian and Hungarian are at the opposite ends of the Finno-Ugric language tree.

Icelandic and Bulgarian are probably more similar than Estonian and Hungarian.

[esaima]

[QUOTE]Comparing the Estonian language with Hungarians is the same as comparing Persian(Indo) with English(European).

No, comparing the English and Persian is the same as comparing Estonian (Finno-Ugric) and Nenets (Samoyed).

The language family is Uralic and it has 2 branches: Finno-Ugric and Samoyedic.

[Äike]

No, comparing the English and Persian is the same as comparing Estonian (Finno-Ugric) and Nenets (Samoyed).

The language family is Uralic and it has 2 branches: Finno-Ugric and Samoyedic.

I was talking about Finno-Ugrics and how Estonians and Hungarians are at the opposite branches.

Samoyedic people are rather unique, their language has Siberian elements and the original "Samoyeds" were Siberian people who adopted a Finno-Ugric language.

Anyway, have you ever heard Hungarian being spoken? Or Udmurt? I can't understand a word from neither languages.

[Humanophage]

There isn't any great discrepancy in pigmentation between Central and Northern Russians:
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h317/Adalwulf/Light_Eyes_Map_.png
http://dic.academic.ru/pictures/wiki/files/76/Light_hair_coloration_map.png

It mostly lies in craniometry, length of legs and arms, and things like hair growth. The distribution of I1a is roughly the same across all historic Russia, it's N that varies widely.

[Äike]

There isn't any great discrepancy in pigmentation between Central and Northern Russians:

Yes there is. Russians can be divided into 3 groups, that's at least what Kalevi Wiik did. Northern Russians, Central Russians and Southern Russians.



http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h317/Adalwulf/Light_Eyes_Map_.png
http://dic.academic.ru/pictures/wiki/files/76/Light_hair_coloration_map.png


http://westernparadigm.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/blue_eyes_map2.jpg

http://camelsnose.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/blond_hair_map1.jpg

Which versions of these maps are more correct?

[Motörhead Remember Me]

There isn't any great discrepancy in pigmentation between Central and Northern Russians
But then you provide a map which implies that there is a discrepancy?

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h317/Adalwulf/Light_Eyes_Map_.png
http://dic.academic.ru/pictures/wiki/files/76/Light_hair_coloration_map.png
Doesn't it get a degree darker in the central and even more so in the south?

It mostly lies in craniometry, length of legs and arms, and things like hair growth. The distribution of I1a is roughly the same across all historic Russia, it's N that varies widely.
There is hardly any N in Russia. There is however, N1c and N1b with their subtypes.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

In fact Finno Ugrians aren´t as different as Indo Europeans.Maris and Finns, not talking about Finns and Vepses, are closer to each other than Icelanders and Bulgarians liguistically, culturally and athropologically.
They language family they belong is Uralic, not Finno-Ugric.If you talk about Indo-Europeans you should compare them with Uralics.

Now you are splitting hairs. The bottom line here is that there is a difference which is considerable.
Of course I agree that Maris are perhaps closer to Baltic-Finnish peoples than Icelanders and Bulgarians but that's another story.
Let me clarify, do you really think that various Finno Ugrian groups such as the Chuvash or Mansi are closer to Estonians than Icelanders are to Bulgarians?

[esaima]

[QUOTE]Now you are splitting hairs. The bottom line here is that there is a difference which is considerable.
I have read that proto Indo-European language branched off c. 5000 years BC, proto-Uralic c. 4000-3500 years BC
not talking about proto-Finno-Ugric which diverged c.3000-2500 years BC into Ugric and Finno-Permic languages.


Of course I agree that Maris are perhaps closer to Baltic-Finnish peoples than Icelanders and Bulgarians but that's another story.
Baltic-Finnish and Icelandic have no linguistical relationship at all if we don´t talk about loan-words.


Let me clarify, do you really think that various Finno Ugrian groups such as the Chuvash or Mansi are closer to Estonians than Icelanders are to Bulgarians?
Well, Mansi may be for Finnish just same as Icelandic is for Bulgarian.
Chuvash is an Altaic language.

Anthropologically and culturally Mansi and Estonians are of course more different than Icelanders and Bulgarians.

[Bloodeagle]

Russian people in Mongoloid/Asian genes! :D
http://www.oca.org/Images/News/2009/2009-0402-alaska.jpg

[Humanophage]

Yes there is. Russians can be divided into 3 groups, that's at least what Kalevi Wiik did. Northern Russians, Central Russians and Southern Russians.
There is a significant difference between them, but it's not in pigmentation, like I said in the last part of the post.


Which versions of these maps are more correct?
Doesn't really matter for the discussion, both show that Central Russians have roughly the same pigmentation as Northern Russians, Central Russia being Moscow, Tver, etc. The light pigmentation areas bulge eastwards to indicate precisely that.


But then you provide a map which implies that there is a discrepancy?

Doesn't it get a degree darker in the central and even more so in the south?
I don't believe it does, unless by Northern Russians you mean all Russians living in historical Russia (http://www.uncp.edu/home/rwb/kievan_rus_map2.gif) (i.e., from Novgorod to Rostov) rather than those living in the north of historical Russia (north of Tver). But then the maps are about native population, hence the dark colouring in Siberia.


There is hardly any N in Russia. There is however, N1c and N1b with their subtypes.
N includes N1c and N1b. Though it's a good observation, next to no N1b in Central Russians, in contrast to some N1c.

[Curtis24]

Humans being humans, there must have been some gene flow from the Mongols to the Russians, especially given the Mongol cultural practice of killing men/raping women. That being said, I don't think the Mongols were actually in Russia long enough to have a significant genetic impact - they left early on and ruled through Turkic underlings.

[Ilya.S]

If I'm not mistaken: the amount of East-Slavs were approximately 3-4 millions in XIII, while the amount of all the nomads of the Golden Horde was about 300-600 thousands.
And their priority was most likely not assimilation, but taking tribute.
So I think they hadn't such a big influence on Russian genetics.

[Ibericus]

Yellow = Mongoloid

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3720/behar2010k10.png

[Ilya.S]

Do you have a color legend?

[Ibericus]

Do you have a color legend?
If you want to see yourself the study (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/nature09103.html) but from a simple deduction one can know the meaning of the colors

[Osweo]

Humans being humans, there must have been some gene flow from the Mongols to the Russians, especially given the Mongol cultural practice of killing men/raping women.
WAIT WAIT WAIT! WHERE the hell did you get that from?!?!? Be a little critical; is this just a weird notion that floats around, or is it historically demonstrable? Cos I don't think it is!

When you really look into the behaviour of the early Chingisids, it's the morality of them that strikes you, actually. Things decayed later on, but it wasn't the sick bloodfest that you seem to think it was.

That being said, I don't think the Mongols were actually in Russia long enough to have a significant genetic impact - they left early on and ruled through Turkic underlings.
Turko-Finno-Irano-Slavonic, you might say. I know Russians with Tatar ancestry, but only from recent Soviet times. I don't know what it's like down by the Volga, maybe there was slightly more mixing there (but wouldn't that be mostly INTO the Tatar group, though?? :chin:), but there's no real way to suppose that anything other than the odd individual of mixed heritage made their way into Muscovy proper in the old days. *(Aristocrats are a world to themselves, of course.)

[Motörhead Remember Me]

I have read that proto Indo-European language branched off c. 5000 years BC, proto-Uralic c. 4000-3500 years BC
not talking about proto-Finno-Ugric which diverged c.3000-2500 years BC into Ugric and Finno-Permic languages.

Baltic-Finnish and Icelandic have no linguistical relationship at all if we don´t talk about loan-words.

Well, Mansi may be for Finnish just same as Icelandic is for Bulgarian.
Chuvash is an Altaic language.
Why are you discussing languages?


Anthropologically and culturally Mansi and Estonians are of course more different than Icelanders and Bulgarians.
So, we do agree after all ?

[lysandros]

If I'm not mistaken: the amount of East-Slavs were approximately 3-4 millions in XIII, while the amount of all the nomads of the Golden Horde was about 300-600 thousands.
And their priority was most likely not assimilation, but taking tribute.
So I think they hadn't such a big influence on Russian genetics.

Exactly! And we have to remeber that it was not an occupation of the russian princedomes, but mostly only raids in to russian territories. The hole story about the mongolian looking russians is just an old western prejudice.

[Agrippa]

Exactly! And we have to remeber that it was not an occupation of the russian princedomes, but mostly only raids in to russian territories. The hole story about the mongolian looking russians is just an old western prejudice.

Probably not for all regions, I mean Northern Russia in particular has areas with significant Finno-Ugrian influences and you have to consider that many Western visitors might not always have been that well-informed about the ethnic composition of a person - I mean not even all Russians are, since Russia was a multi-ethnic Empire.

Therefore one should also make a clear distinction between people living in Russia, of which many are Mongoloid influenced, and ethnic Russian people, of which only a certain small portion, mostly Finno-Ugrian influences, shows Mongoloid or Mongoliform tendencies (Eastbaltid-Lappoid).

Interesting for the debate might be what Dienekes posted recently, since the Northern Russian (more Finno-Ugrian influenced?) sample many geneticists use these days it seems, shows a significant, yet minor, Mongoloid influence:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/09/some-admixture-estimates-in-eurasia.html


The emergence of 2 clusters (red=Mongoloid, blue=Caucasoid) is as expected, with Russians showing a small participation in the red cluster (7.2%). These northern Russians are believed to have a substantial Finno-Ugric genetic origin, so this is inline with a recent estimate for the eastern component in the westernmost Finno-Ugric speakers being less than 10% (but see below).

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TKHjmECMWFI/AAAAAAAACng/VMSRlKY2zhM/s1600/han_mandinka_europeans_proportions.jpeg

[Äike]

Exactly! And we have to remeber that it was not an occupation of the russian princedomes, but mostly only raids in to russian territories. The hole story about the mongolian looking russians is just an old western prejudice.

The saying "Scratch a Russian and you find a Tatar" is a bit too much, but I have to point out that I see "mongoloid Russians", daily. It was a bad idea to assimilated all conquered people, because of such imperialism, the modern Russian people can look very diverse. Some Russians(from NW-Russia for instance) can look like Swedes or Estonians, because of the recently assimilated native Finnic population. Sadly, I see Russians who look like us, not that often.

When walking in Tallinn, then you might get an impression that you're in some borderline Central-Southern European area, like Southern-France or Romania because of the large amount of brown-eyed, brunette(brunette is not the same as brown) individuals passing you on the street, or sitting beside you in the public transport.

Most Estonians(and Russians can also tell the difference) can tell if a person is Estonian or Russian by the physical features.

[Ilya.S]

I must say that it's really difficult to find any Russian lappid, but there are some east-baltids though.


Interesting for the debate might be what Dienekes posted recently, since the Northern Russian (more Finno-Ugrian influenced?) sample many geneticists use these days it seems, shows a significant, yet minor, Mongoloid influence:
Yes they are I believe the most F-U influenced, but, is there a sample of the original F-U people who have had influence on N-Russians?


The saying "Scratch a Russian and you find a Tatar" is a bit too much, but I have to point out that I see "mongoloid Russians", daily. It was a bad idea to assimilated all conquered people, because of such imperialism, the modern Russian people can look very diverse. Some Russians(from NW-Russia for instance) can look like Swedes or Estonians, because of the recently assimilated native Finnic population. Sadly, I see Russians who look like us, not that often.

Mongoloid Russians? Can you post an example?
I have found that often the ones with the most mongoloid-influenced look have rather light-pigmentation.
Usually darker Russians are pontids or alpinids.
Maybe you just mistake Russian-speaking people with Russian?


When walking in Tallinn, then you might get an impression that you're in some borderline Central-Southern European area, like Southern-France or Romania because of the large amount of brown-eyed, brunette(brunette is not the same as brown) individuals passing you on the street, or sitting beside you in the public transport.
Yes but that's not only the question of pigmentation, light-pigmented Russians look also different from Estonians, mostly.

[Äike]

I must say that it's really difficult to find any Russian lappid, but there are some east-baltids though.

I have to agree, Siberian types exist among Russians, but are quite rare. While Lappids are practically non-existent.

[lysandros]

Probably not for all regions, I mean Northern Russia in particular has areas with significant Finno-Ugrian influences and you have to consider that many Western visitors might not always have been that well-informed about the ethnic composition of a person - I mean not even all Russians are, since Russia was a multi-ethnic Empire.

Therefore one should also make a clear distinction between people living in Russia, of which many are Mongoloid influenced, and ethnic Russian people, of which only a certain small portion, mostly Finno-Ugrian influences, shows Mongoloid or Mongoliform tendencies (Eastbaltid-Lappoid).

Interesting for the debate might be what Dienekes posted recently, since the Northern Russian (more Finno-Ugrian influenced?) sample many geneticists use these days it seems, shows a significant, yet minor, Mongoloid influence:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/09/some-admixture-estimates-in-eurasia.html



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TKHjmECMWFI/AAAAAAAACng/VMSRlKY2zhM/s1600/han_mandinka_europeans_proportions.jpeg

Yes the russians during the history assimilated the northern Fino-Ugrian tribes, for example in NW of Russia you have ca. 30% with haplogroup N which is typical for Fino-Ugrians. And yes Fino-Ugrian people have an asiatic touch (thats why the discussions about the belonging of all finnish people to nordic-scandinavians is absurd, you can clearly see asiatic influence in a lot of finnish faces). But if we talk about central Russia you can clearly see a much higher percentage of R1a haplogroup (russians of slavic origin) , in south Russia we have a slavo-scythian mix of R1a. This means that the central and south russians are almost pure european people. And if you take all russians also the vast majority are of european type.

[Agrippa]

Even 10-11 percent admixture doesnt have to mean that much actually, because just think about Mestizos or Mulattoes, in most cases in the F2-generation you don't see it clearly, in F3 most traits are gone.

F1 = 50 %
F2 = 25 %
F3 = 12,5 %

So an average of about 12,5 percent equals to 1/8 foreign admixture, this means only in individuals here or there the traits will appear UNLESS there was selection involved. Which might be the case in the North East, because of Borealisation, which means that one sided cold adapted and Mongoliform traits might have been under positive selection in the local population.

This might even exceed what you would commonly notice in a genpool which has about 10 percent foreign admixture by chance.

That would be the reason for the Eastbaltid/Mongoloid traits there, the combination of admixture and selection.


Yes they are I believe the most F-U influenced, but, is there a sample of the original F-U people who have had influence on N-Russians?

Well, usually the more unmixed Sami samples deviate even much more from European standards - in the same direction.

[esaima]

[QUOTE] Some Russians(from NW-Russia for instance) can look like Swedes or Estonians
You think that Estonians and Swedes look same. I can tell if a person is Estonian or Swede by the physical features, I think most of Estonians can, they look "foreign". Estonians and Finns look also different.
The most similar foreigners to us are Latvians.


When walking in Tallinn, then you might get an impression that you're in some borderline Central-Southern European area, like Southern-France or Romania
You are exaggerating, Russians aren´t so "southern".Btw, it seems that you have been very many times to Romania and South-France.


Most Estonians(and Russians can also tell the difference) can tell if a person is Estonian or Russian by the physical features.
In fact some of the Estonians look pretty "Russian" , some Russians look pretty "Estonian" and the similarities are bigger than Karl likes to admit.

[Äike]

You think that Estonians and Swedes look same.

Did I say that in my post? I do not think so, but an American member of TA who has visited Estonia has claimed so in his posts.

In my opinion, Swedes have more East-Baltids and Skandonordids.


I can tell if a person is Estonian or Swede by the physical features, I think most of Estonians can, they look "foreign". Estonians and Finns look also different.

Finns look different from us, that's true. They're living considerably more north of us.


The most similar foreigners to us are Latvians.

Latvians look similar to us because the Baltic blood flowing in their veins is weak. Northern-Latvians are just assimilated Estonians and Western-Latvians are assimilated Livonians. That's why Latvians look us.


You are exaggerating, Russians aren´t so "southern".Btw, it seems that you have been very many times to Romania and South-France.

No I am not, I used to live in slightly more Russian area of Tallinn in the past. I also see hundreds of Russians, daily. You live in Tartu, good for you. You barely have any Russians.


In fact some of the Estonians look pretty "Russian" , some Russians look pretty "Estonian" and the similarities are bigger than Karl likes to admit.

Troll. I do not know what pleasure you get out of this. Go live in Lasnamäe for a month and then let's see if you continue trolling.

Believe it or not, but I spend more time with Russians than the average Estonian. As both my aunt and uncle are married to Russians. I also have a close relative who has mostly Russian business partners and friends, I meet them every time I go to some birthday or other social event.

Even at Turkey, the group I traveled with was mostly Russian. I do know how Russians look like and you're trolling, admit it.

[esaima]

[QUOTE]Troll. I do not know what pleasure you get out of this. Go live in Lasnamäe for a month and then let's see if you continue trolling.

Believe it or not, but I spend more time with Russians than the average Estonian. As both my aunt and uncle are married to Russians. I also have a close relative who has mostly Russian business partners and friends, I meet them every time I go to some birthday or other social event.

Even at Turkey, the group I traveled with was mostly Russian. I do know how Russians look like and you're trolling, admit it.
Are you a real fool?? You gave me a negative reputation!!The first one during my existence in Apricity!
All because I said:

esäimä; In fact some of the Estonians look pretty "Russian" , some Russians look pretty "Estonian" and the similarities are bigger than Karl likes to admit.
This is true! I did not say that Estonians and Russians do look same!I said that I said: the similarities are bigger than a Russophobe Karl wants to believe.I didn´t say that there are no differences.

You must be very dumb I you believe that I don´t know how is Russian look.There are 20% Russians in my town.Some years ago I lived in Tallinn, there are more Russians.Finally i had a Russian girlfriend, reddish-blond hair, pale, not-well-tanning skin, to call her blackhaired mediterranean is simply stupid...

You have lost your nerve.
btw, can you tell what does "troll" mean (according to you) who is troll?-The one who doesn´t support your opinions?

[Äike]

Are you a real fool?? You gave me a negative reputation!!The first one during my existence in Apricity!
All because I said:

The result of 2-3 months of trolling, I actually realized only in the last month that you're not being serious.


This is true! I did not say that Estonians and Russians do look same!I said that I said: the similarities are bigger than a Russophobe Karl wants to believe.I didn´t say that there are no differences.

There are Russians who look like Estonians, because of the impact the native Finnic population has had on the Russian population. Then there are Estonians who can look like Russians(Finnics), because Estonians actually still are Finnic people. But, the majority of Russians look different from us.

Example: There are many Pontids among the Russian population and Pontids are just a subtype of the Mediterranean subrace. Italians, Spaniards and Greeks are Mediterranean. I'm just pointing out how diverse the Russian population is.


You must be very dumb I you believe that I don´t know how is Russian look.There are 20% Russians in my town.Some years ago I lived in Tallinn, there are more Russians.

I think you know how Russians look like, but you're just trolling me.


Finally i had a Russian girlfriend, reddish-blond hair, pale, not-well-tanning skin, to call her blackhaired mediterranean is simply stupid...

I bet her distant ancestors were Finnic ;)

There are all kinds of Russians, both my uncle's wife and aunt's husband have dark brunette hair.


You have lost your nerve.

I never lose my nerve.


btw, can you tell what does "troll" mean (according to you) who is troll?-The one who doesn´t support your opinions?

A person who knows the truth, but is deliberately saying something else. A few months ago, I thought that you sincerely believed what you said, that's why I was so tolerant. Now I see things from a different perspective.

Example of a troll: There was this Russian member here, who isn't active anymore. He said that Estonians weren't allowed to live in towns, before the Russian empire took over Estonia. This is false. There were even Estonian guilds(Mustpead) etc.

[esaima]

I never lose my nerve.
:rolleyes:

[Äike]

:rolleyes:

If anyone lost his nerve, then it was you. You called me a fool and used several !'s at the end of your sentences.

[esaima]

Finally i had a Russian girlfriend, reddish-blond hair, pale, not-well-tanning skin, to call her blackhaired mediterranean is simply stupid...

I bet her distant ancestors were Finnic

All light-haired Russians are Finnic?!According to Kalevi Wiik...blah.blah Lol.
Btw, Russians themselves don´t support this "Russians being assimilated Finnics" conception at all.

Finnic Maris are as dark as Romanians.

[Äike]

All light-haired Russians are Finnic?!According to Kalevi Wiik...blah.blah Lol.

Well, not really. But you described that she couldn't tan and had quite fair skin. That's an Upper Paleolithic/Baltid trait. Nordid Scandinavians can tan quite well. I saw pictures of my father when he was in the Soviet army, stationed in Ukraine and Slovakia. He was considerably darker than the Russian crowd surrounding him. Russians have quite a considerable amount of Upper Paleolithic traits and I think that they got those traits from the native Finnic population.


Btw, Russians themselves don´t support this "Russians being assimilated Finnics" conception at all.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Muromian-map.png


Finnic Maris are as dark as Romanians.

I think that Estonians would also be as dark as Romanians, if our historic neighbours would be the Tatars...

The most common languages spoken among the Mari people are 1. Russian 2. Mari and 3. Tatar

This just proves my point.

[Osweo]

Russians have quite a considerable amount of Upper Paleolithic traits and I think that they got those traits from the native Finnic population.
The same traits could as easily have been brought from the Slavonic Urheimat or even the PIE one. Prehistory didn't involve hermetically sealed groups waiting behind little fences for somebody to suddenly blow a whistle and shout "You can now start MIXING!!!"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Muromian-map.png
Blobs of colour on a map look very pretty, but the fact is that the Slavonic incursions brought greater density of population. Your Muroma and co. were scattered fisherman, for the greater part. (this is a slight exaggeration, okay, but still relevant)

AND! Where are the BALTS on this map?!?

Heard of 'Baltica Podmoskovye'? There is a considerable layer of Baltic (in the IE linguistic family sense of the word (((YES, KARL, it has SEVERAL senses)))) toponymy in Moskovskaya Oblast. Finnics were there first, Slavs are still there, but between the two came a Baltic wave, ignored on this (therefore rubbish) map.

HAving the Meshchera fill the entire Oka basin is nonsense. Where are the GOLYAD'????



I think that Estonians would also be as dark as Romanians, if our historic neighbours would be the Tatars...
Ништак, браток! :thumb001:
(бy the way, though, Mari are often fairer than I am)

[Pallantides]

Even if Finnics were supposedly more blonde and light eyed than Slavs ...does it really matter?

[Guapo]

Even if Finnics were supposedly more blonde and light eyed than Slavs ...does it really matter?

It's all bullshit. We're all products of incest from thousands of years ago anyway. That's how subraces came about just like teh Aran islanders.

[Äike]

The same traits could as easily have been brought from the Slavonic Urheimat or even the PIE one. Prehistory didn't involve hermetically sealed groups waiting behind little fences for somebody to suddenly blow a whistle and shout "You can now start MIXING!!!"

I know how much all of you hate Kalevi Wiik, but... Kalevi Wiik has said that during the creation of the Germanic, Slavic and Baltic groups, they had strong Finno-Ugric/native UP-European heritage. He claims that Balts, Slavs(leaving out the Slavs of the Balkans who probably descend from the native inhabitants of the area) and Germanics are just native UP-Europeans/Uralics who took over Indo-European languages.



Ништак, браток! :thumb001:
(бy the way, though, Mari are often fairer than I am)

The Mari people aren't as dark as esäimä said. That's why I think he's a troll, he's blatantly lying on several subjects. Although there's a considerable dark factor among the Mari people, because of their Tatar neighbours.


Even if Finnics were supposedly more blonde and light eyed than Slavs ...does it really matter?

No it doesn't. I just do not want immigrants in my country who look different from us, be it the Turks, Russians, Pakistanis or any other group. From those 3 groups mentioned Russians are the closest to us, but still different.

[Guapo]

I'd estimate that all Slavs have 1/4 Mongoloid/Asian genes or at least me anyway, I have a small dick :(

[Юлия]

I just want to say, that a lot of nations live EVERYWHERE, not only in Russia. Especially in Europe. I have German friend and he told to me, that modern Germans are mix of various nationalities, and they have nothing in common with ancient Germans. In France only every third child is native Frenchman (and it doesn't mean, that the others are pure French). Also I have many Ukrainian friends and acquaintances, and many of them are not pure Ukrainians at all. In Ukraine live many Russians, Byelorussians, Poles, Jews, gipsies, Moldavians, Romanians, Tatars, Caucasians, Greeks, Turks, Germans, Asians etc. And for your information, Tatar-Mongols have reached not only Russia, but also Ukraine, Belarus, Poland etc. And they were gathering a tribute in Kiev. And that fact, that the person names himself the "Ukrainian", does not mean that he is really Ukrainian. My friend Igor from the western Ukraine has basically Moldavian-Russian roots (as he said to me), plus he have some Gipsy, Spanish, Belarusian, Caucasian and Ukrainian blood o_O However according to the passport he is "Ukrainian". So... Just for example, Ukrainians (and most of other Europeans) aren't more pure nation, than Russians. And I don't understand, why you emphasize constantly, that Russia is multinational country. Europe is no less multinational. In that case, any nation in Europe cannot assert, that they are nation of "pure blood". But still there are a few persons, who would rather prefer a blood type analysis of Russians.

And of course, national composition depends of region. For example, in Grozny (capital of Chechen Republic) 99% of people are Chechens. But Volgograd is a Slavic city: more than 90% of people, which live there, are Russian ethnicity. Though, there are illegal migrants also.

About North-Western people of Russia discussion. It's not the truth, that people of this region are more fair. Fair RUSSIAN people can live everywhere. Also it's a lie, that in the North of Russia mostly ancestors of Finns, Karelians or Balts live (but it's enough of them there, of course). There is a such thing, as migratory streams. Simply many Russian people have arrived on these territories to live, work there etc. Also many of Finno-Ugric people have left from here (to corresponding countries). But inhabitants of these places, who have Finno-Ugric roots, name themselves suitably: the Finn, the Karelian or the Estonian etc. So it is wrong to tell, that northern Russians are not Russians. There is a difference between "Русский" and "Россиянин". In English language there is no distinction in these words, but it's something like "Russians" (in sense of nationality of the person as representative of one of East Slavic branches) and "People of Russia" (they are citizens of Russia, who can be any nationality). So, Russians are Russians and Finns are Finns. Moreover, I really do not see amazing similarities between Russians and Finns: we are different in appearance (because it's not only matter of fair hairs and eye-color), and by character. For example, I remember, when we looked a film with Ville Haapsalo (he is nice and funny Finnish actor in Russia), and all of us have told simultaneously: "He is a Finn!" :))) Because he have typical face for the Finn, but NOT a typical face for the Russian person at the same time ;)

It's silly to judge about nationality of the person because of hair color or residence. As, for example, my story: I live in Khanty-Mansiysk Autonomous Area, but it does not mean, that I'm representative of Khanty or Mansi (their population size is very small, and as a matter of fact, Russians have come on these lands almost devoid of inhabitants). My parents aren't native Siberians, and they have arrived here, when there was no city, in which I live now.

And yes, I just have forgotten: I have statistics about national structure of Karelia to confirm my words:

Nationality Census 1926 Census 1939 Census 1959 Census 1970 Census 1979 Census 1989 Census 2002
Russians 153 967 (57,2 %) 296 529 (63,2 %) 412 773 (62,7 %) 486 198 (68,1 %) 522 230 (71,3 %) 581 571 (73,6 %) 548 941 (76,6 %)

Karelians 100 781 (37,4 %) 108 571 (23,2 %) 85 473 (13,0 %) 84 180 (11,8 %) 81 274 (11,1 %) 78 928 (10,0 %) 65 651 (9,2 %)


And by the way, Russians are very attentive and careful to culture, traditions and to languages of native people. Festivals of Finno-Ugric culture are organized constantly, and languages of local nationalities are accepted as official languages of corresponding republics.

And, actually, Russians are not only blue-eyed blonds, it's just stupid stereotype. Russians can have hairs from light blond to dark brown. I'm from Russian family, and all members of our family have different hair and eye color. Moreover, it's very silly in our times to do conclusions about origin of the person because of hair color, when people have invented such remarkable thing as a hair-dye. In Russia there are many Russian girls, who love to
experiment with their appearance. By means of hair-dye they become blondes, red, brown-haired, brunettes and green or blue-dyed even, if soul wishes ;)

By the way, HI! :)

[d3cimat3d]

Well I'm from the Pontic steppe and I'm about 2.9% Asian. I'm sure steppic Russians have some Mongoloid too.

[Efim45]

I recently found out about my 2% Asian ancestry, probably accumulated from hundreds of years of Mongolian and Tatar rape.

[d3cimat3d]

I recently found out about my 2% Asian ancestry, probably accumulated from hundreds of years of Mongolian and Tatar rape.

Awesome. For me it was Kipchak, Bulgar, Avar, Magyar, Hun, etc. rape that my ancestors endured. :thumb001:

[Guapo]

http://www.mnsu.edu/here4you/assault/preventrisk/rape_talk_about_it_prevent_it.gif

[Hess]

this discussion has been done to death. For those that missed it the first 500 times, some do, some don't

[Äike]

About North-Western people of Russia discussion. It's not the truth, that people of this region are more fair. Fair RUSSIAN people can live everywhere. Also it's a lie, that in the North of Russia mostly ancestors of Finns, Karelians or Balts live (but it's enough of them there, of course). There is a such thing, as migratory streams. Simply many Russian people have arrived on these territories to live, work there etc. Also many of Finno-Ugric people have left from here (to corresponding countries). But inhabitants of these places, who have Finno-Ugric roots, name themselves suitably: the Finn, the Karelian or the Estonian etc. So it is wrong to tell, that northern Russians are not Russians. There is a difference between "Русский" and "Россиянин". In English language there is no distinction in these words, but it's something like "Russians" (in sense of nationality of the person as representative of one of East Slavic branches) and "People of Russia" (they are citizens of Russia, who can be any nationality). So, Russians are Russians and Finns are Finns. Moreover, I really do not see amazing similarities between Russians and Finns: we are different in appearance (because it's not only matter of fair hairs and eye-color), and by character. For example, I remember, when we looked a film with Ville Haapsalo (he is nice and funny Finnish actor in Russia), and all of us have told simultaneously: "He is a Finn!" :))) Because he have typical face for the Finn, but NOT a typical face for the Russian person at the same time ;)

We aren't talking about the 20th century, we are talking about things which happened 500, 700, 1000, 2000 and 3000 years ago.

Joint Estonian-Russian genetic research has confirmed that North-Western Russians are pretty much Finno-Ugrics who have just assimilated.

Modern-day Russian during the Slavonic invasion onto Finno-Ugric lands:

http://wiki.verbix.com/uploads/Languages/Finno-Volgaic.png

Finno-Ugric people in the neolithic:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif/800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif


And yes, I just have forgotten: I have statistics about national structure of Karelia to confirm my words:

Nationality Census 1926 Census 1939 Census 1959 Census 1970 Census 1979 Census 1989 Census 2002
Russians 153 967 (57,2 %) 296 529 (63,2 %) 412 773 (62,7 %) 486 198 (68,1 %) 522 230 (71,3 %) 581 571 (73,6 %) 548 941 (76,6 %)

Karelians 100 781 (37,4 %) 108 571 (23,2 %) 85 473 (13,0 %) 84 180 (11,8 %) 81 274 (11,1 %) 78 928 (10,0 %) 65 651 (9,2 %)

Don't boast about the fact that many Karelians fled from Asiatic styled Russian terror into Finland.



And by the way, Russians are very attentive and careful to culture, traditions and to languages of native people. Festivals of Finno-Ugric culture are organized constantly, and languages of local nationalities are accepted as official languages of corresponding republics.

You must be joking. An Udmurt woman who's active at cultural events and writing books in the Udmurt language started to cry when she spoke how badly the Russians/the Russian government treats her people.

[Osweo]

Joint Estonian-Russian genetic research has confirmed that North-Western Russians are pretty much Finno-Ugrics who have just assimilated.
'Just' is an idiotic word to use here. The process of Russification involved immense changes in way of thinking and behaving. And it would necessarily have involved some immigration anyway. By virtue of the latter, these people ARE Russian by blood as well as culture.

But what is this 'north-western' nonsense?

When talking of Russian subethnoses, it makes sense to use the terms conditioned by the distribution of the country before expanding into Siberia. By this token, 'north-western' can only really mean Novgorod and Pskov. Is that what you mean? I'm suspecting you mean rather the Pomors, of Arkhangelsk and its region, however, which is simply the 'Far North'.


Modern-day Russian during the Slavonic invasion onto Finno-Ugric lands:

http://wiki.verbix.com/uploads/Languages/Finno-Volgaic.png
THAT is a stupid and ignorant map. The Meshchera were not so far west, and the Baltic peoples of Podmoskovye have been omitted.

The fact is, prior to recent centuries, the Finnics stayed on where they had always been. The Merya and Murom are the only ones I can think of that fully assimilated in the mediaeval period. On the whole, the core of the Great Russian territory is land on which BALTIC-speakers preceded Slavs.

[Don Brick]

wtf delete

[Don Brick]

In fact some of the Estonians look pretty "Russian" , some Russians look pretty "Estonian" and the similarities are bigger than Karl likes to admit.

True. Overall I tend to think Estonians look similar to their fellow Baltics. But sure there are overlaps with Finns too and Russians as well for sure.

For instance, look at these Estonian men who were kidnapped in Lebanon just recently. Most of them give me very "Balto-Slavic" vibes if such a term even holds any actual relevance.... Yes, messy picture, but still.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-M0I3pCP-ucs/Ta9cEVR-X2I/AAAAAAAAcOk/7yRUfBdPDj0/s1600/estonians-kidnapped-400x238.jpg

[Äike]

'Just' is an idiotic word to use here. The process of Russification involved immense changes in way of thinking and behaving. And it would necessarily have involved some immigration anyway. By virtue of the latter, these people ARE Russian by blood as well as culture.

But what is this 'north-western' nonsense?

When talking of Russian subethnoses, it makes sense to use the terms conditioned by the distribution of the country before expanding into Siberia. By this token, 'north-western' can only really mean Novgorod and Pskov. Is that what you mean? I'm suspecting you mean rather the Pomors, of Arkhangelsk and its region, however, which is simply the 'Far North'.

THAT is a stupid and ignorant map. The Meshchera were not so far west, and the Baltic peoples of Podmoskovye have been omitted.

The fact is, prior to recent centuries, the Finnics stayed on where they had always been. The Merya and Murom are the only ones I can think of that fully assimilated in the mediaeval period. On the whole, the core of the Great Russian territory is land on which BALTIC-speakers preceded Slavs.

The Finno-Ugrians preceeded the Balts and the Slavs. The Balts and the Slavs assimilated Finno-Ugrians who we know nothing about. The Finno-Ugrian tribes marked on that map are the lucky ones.

Most of the assimilation took place during the Slavonic expansion onto native Finno-Ugric/Northern-Europid lands.


True. Overall I tend to think Estonians look similar to their fellow Baltics. But sure there are overlaps with Finns too and Russians as well for sure.

For instance, look at these Estonian men who were kidnapped in Lebanon just recently. Most of them give me very "Balto-Slavic" vibes if such a term even holds any actual relevance.... Yes, messy picture, but still.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-M0I3pCP-ucs/Ta9cEVR-X2I/AAAAAAAAcOk/7yRUfBdPDj0/s1600/estonians-kidnapped-400x238.jpg

Anyone(even you) with a shaved head looks like a Balto-Slav on any bad picture. Having seen better pictures of them, none of them strike me as looking nothing else than Finnic.

By the way, Finns look more similar to the Russians than we do. :)
Even esäimä has said so. Seeing Russians and Finns daily, I have to agree.

A big bunch of Russians look completely foreign, like those brown eyed and brunette ones, but the factor that ties the Russians and the Finns is the common occurrence of east-baltids in both populations, who can look quite similar to each other.

If I can make a difference between Estonians and Russians on a 98% basis, the percentage falls to 88% when I differentiate between Finns and Russians.

Also check out the anthropology thread about the Lithuanians that Pallantides made, it's quite informative. If I'd see such Balto-Slavic mugs walking in Tallinn, I'd mistake them for Russians.

Your attitude towards the Estonians is the same as a certain Finn-Swede has towards Finns. :P

[Lisa]

A big bunch of Russians look completely foreign, like those brown eyed and brunette ones

Karl only 5% ethnic Russian with dark eyes and 13% with dark hair . :)

[Don Brick]

Your attitude towards the Estonians is the same as a certain Finn-Swede has towards Finns. :P

I have no "attitude" towards Estonians. That, my friend, is all in your head, as are many other very peculiar ideas. Just saying what I see. And sure, there are plenty of Finns who can look Baltic and even Russian and so forth, but not as much as Estonians do, which should be expected by just one swift glance at a map or knowing the history and genetics of Estonians. You seem to see this as a bad thing, I don´t. No need to turn this into a stupid game.

[Äike]

Karl only 5% ethnic Russian with dark eyes and 13% with dark hair . :)

You're out of your mind.

I have seen tens of thousands of Russians during my lifetime and I see hundreds every day.

[Äike]

I have no "attitude" towards Estonians. That, my friend, is all in your head, as are many other very peculiar ideas. Just saying what I see. And sure, there are plenty of Finns who can look Baltic and even Russian and so forth, but not as much as Estonians do, which should be expected by just one swift glance at a map or knowing the history and genetics of Estonians. You seem to see this as a bad thing, I don´t. No need to turn this into a stupid game.

History and genetics? Finland has more Russian influence than Estonia does.

So I am genetically Baltic, because Polako decided to call a 80% Finnic and 20% "genuinely Baltic" population, 100% Baltic?

This will probably break your heart, as you love Sweden so much, but the Estonians look more similar to the Swedes than the Finns do. + The Finns look more similar to the Russians.

I have to agree with one thing though, the Estonians look more similar to the Livonians/"Latvians" than the Finns do. ;)

[Don Brick]

History and genetics? Finland has more Russian influence than Estonia does.

So I am genetically Baltic, because Polako decided to call a 80% Finnic and 20% "genuinely Baltic" population, 100% Baltic?

This will probably break your heart, as you love Sweden so much, but the Estonians look more similar to the Swedes than the Finns do. + The Finns look more similar to the Russians.

I have to agree with one thing though, the Estonians look more similar to the Livonians/"Latvians" than the Finns do. ;)

You are a vile human being. How much shit can one single person spew out of their mouth? Stop spreading lies about me, sekundaryssä.

[Äike]

You are a vile human being. How much shit can one single person spew out of their mouth? Stop spreading lies about me, sekundaryssä.

Which part of my post do you disagree with? Sekundarüssä? lol, what did make you say that?


History and genetics? 1. Finland has more Russian influence than Estonia does.

2.So I am genetically Baltic, because Polako decided to call a 80% Finnic and 20% "genuinely Baltic" population, 100% Baltic?

3.This will probably break your heart, 4.as you love Sweden so much, 5.but the Estonians look more similar to the Swedes than the Finns do. + 6.The Finns look more similar to the Russians.

7.I have to agree with one thing though, the Estonians look more similar to the Livonians/"Latvians" than the Finns do. ;)

I have to say about "1." that the Finn-Swedes have more of that Russian influence and the Karelians have a notable portion of this influence, while the absolute majority of Finns do not have it.

At the same time, no Estonian group has such influence.

[Lisa]

Karl you see ex Soviet people and they are not ethnic Russian . That table shows the pigmentation Russian and Western Europeans (with the Scandinavia )
http://s41.radikal.ru/i093/1105/0b/3c8506c8155e.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)

[Äike]

Karl you see ex Soviet people and they are not ethnic Russian . That table shows the pigmentation Russian and Western Europeans (with the Scandinavia )
http://s41.radikal.ru/i093/1105/0b/3c8506c8155e.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)

Russians are the main immigrant group here and they aren't 95% blue eyed like you claim... They're swarthy as fuck, when compared to us, some Russians would look out of place even in Central-European countries. It's rather funny that you can see hordes of East-Mediterraneans in a northern city like Tallinn.

[Ivanushka-supertzar]

Russians are the main immigrant group here and they aren't 95% blue eyed like you claim... They're swarthy as fuck, when compared to us, some Russians would look out of place even in Central-European countries. It's rather funny that you can see hordes of East-Mediterraneans in a northern city like Tallinn.



Swarthy as fuck? That's certainly an exaggeration.Of course not all Russians are blonde primadonnas like you Estonians but still...
Ive seen very pretty Russian-speaking girl working in McDonalds last time I was in Tallinn. ;)

[Äike]

Swarthy as fuck? That's certainly an exaggeration.Of course not all Russians are blonde primadonnas like you Estonians but still...
Ive seen very pretty Russian-speaking girl working in McDonalds last time I was in Tallinn. ;)

There's a big bunch of dark individuals among Russians, but you have to keep in mind that the Russians in Estonia come from every possible corner of Russia.

[Ivanushka-supertzar]

There's a big bunch of dark individuals among Russians, but you have to keep in mind that the Russians in Estonia come from every possible corner of Russia.


Well, Russia is multi-national country. There are many mixed individuals.They call themselves Russians but technically they are Rossiyanins. :tongue

[Lisa]

Russians are the main immigrant group here and they aren't 95% blue eyed like you claim... They're swarthy as fuck, when compared to us, some Russians would look out of place even in Central-European countries. It's rather funny that you can see hordes of East-Mediterraneans in a northern city like Tallinn.

I lost my Last illussions about you . There are about 45% pure blue, 49% mixed green , 5% dark . And i can tell you that the Ethnic Russians in Estonia living on their land . Estonia- Estlyandiya is a Russin province - got independence from the hands of Jewish revolutionaries . :rolleyes:

[mymy]

There's a big bunch of dark individuals among Russians, but you have to keep in mind that the Russians in Estonia come from every possible corner of Russia.

From my experience... I dated Russian guy and most of people from his father's side were dark haired and with dark eyes, they are Southern Russians-not mixed with other groups. However, most of people from his mother's side were light haired and light eyed with very fair skin tone(Moscow area). He was blue eyed and dark haired by the way.

[Äike]

Well, Russia is multi-national country. There are many mixed individuals.They call themselves Russians but technically they are Rossiyanins. :tongue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Estonia#Ethnic_groups


I lost my Last illussions about you . There are about 45% pure blue, 49% mixed green , 5% dark

5% dark? I would say that about 20% of Russians have brown eyes.


. And i can tell you that the Ethnic Russians in Estonia living on their land . Estonia- Estlyandiya is a Russin province - got independence from the hands of Jewish revolutionaries . :rolleyes:

What are you doing on this forum? As far as I know, nostalgic communism and imperialism are opposite to European preservation.

Estonia nor Finland have never been your average Russian provinces. The reforms in 19th century Russia were made after Livonia, which was like a part of Western-Europe, although controlled by Russia. It had it's own court system, school system etc.

[Äike]

From my experience... I dated Russian guy and most of people from his father's side were dark haired and with dark eyes, they are Southern Russians-not mixed with other groups. However, most of people from his mother's side were light haired and light eyed with very fair skin tone(Moscow area). He was blue eyed and dark haired by the way.

There are plenty of Russians in Estonia who look like they are from Southern-Russia, but their compatriots on this forum are trying to claim that Southern-Russians aren't Russians, but they are just claiming to be Russian...

[Lisa]

Karl only Finland had a special status . Estonia simply province of the Russian Empire .

And Karl Europe and Europeans are not only EU members .

[EWtt]

Estonia simply province of the Russian Empire .


Estonia and Livonia were local German-controlled territories (Landesstaat), not at all provinces like the others. The dominance of the German nobility, Lutheran faith, the German language (and culture) remained. This was even written into the treaty with the Swedes.

[Lisa]

Estonia and Livonia were local German-controlled territories (Landesstaat), not at all provinces like the others. The dominance of the German nobility, Lutheran faith, the German language (and culture) remained. This was even written into the treaty with the Swedes.

German barons were part of the Russian aristocracy and honestly served the Russian Empire . Estonia and Livonia obey all the laws of Russia .

Of course Estonia is an independent country , but ethnic Russians living for hundreds of yaers there. For example the sity of Tartu is a before Russian city Yuriev

[Ivanushka-supertzar]

German barons were part of the Russian aristocracy and honestly served the Russian Empire . Estonia and Livonia obey all the laws of Russia .

Of course Estonia is an independent country , but ethnic Russians living for hundreds of yaers there. For example the sity of Tartu is a before Russian city Yuriev

Well Russians are sub-humans according to Karl. Unlike the Swedes whom he recognize as his true Nordic masters. :thumbs up

[Äike]

German barons were part of the Russian aristocracy and honestly served the Russian Empire . Estonia and Livonia obey all the laws of Russia .

Estonia and Livonia had their own laws and juridical systems. Those laws and systems were copied by the Russian empire/the Russian czar, to Europeanize/Westernize the Russian empire.


Of course Estonia is an independent country , but ethnic Russians living for hundreds of yaers there. For example the sity of Tartu is a before Russian city Yuriev

Wow. I haven't met a Russian chauvinist like you for ages. You probably worship Stalin too, for doing genocide on the Estonians and colonizing Estonia with the Russians.

Anyway, you should be placed next to a wall and be shot. :)

As a true supporter of cultural & ethnic European preservation, I despise people like you, who are strongly against cultural & ethnic European preservation. You are a chauvinist and a imperialist, thus your views are opposite to the views of people on this forum.


Well Russians are sub-humans according to Karl. Unlike the Swedes whom he recognize as his true Nordic masters. :thumbs up

If you're not an immigrant in Estonia nor a Russian chauvinist who thinks that Estonia is a native Russian region and that Estonia should be a Russian province, then you're not a subhuman.

The more Russians I meet on the internet, the more I start to think that the Russians in Russia are even worse than the ones here. You're an exception, of course, but your compatriot, Nero, just represents a bad Russian stereotype.

[EWtt]

German barons were part of the Russian aristocracy and honestly served the Russian Empire . Estonia and Livonia obey all the laws of Russia .

Nevertheless the system was different here than elsewhere in the Empire.

Sweden tried to take power away from the Germans, Russia reinstated all their great rights. Hence their loyalty and honest servitude.


Of course Estonia is an independent country , but ethnic Russians living for hundreds of yaers there.

Most Russians in Estonia came max 50 years ago.

Only Russians living here "hundreds of years" are the Old Believers, and they've mostly kept themselves concentrated in one area near Lake Peipus. They escaped religious persecution in Russia and crossed the lake into Swedish Estonia.


For example the sity of Tartu is a before Russian city Yuriev

And before any Russians set foot there, Tartu was Estonian.

"Archaeological evidence of the first permanent settlement on the site of modern Tartu dates to as early as the 5th century AD. By the 7th century, local inhabitants had built a wooden fortification on the east side of Toome Hill (Toomemägi)."

It took 31 years for Estonians to burn that fort the Russians built in 1030. By the time the German crusaders came along in the 13th century the place was called "Tarbatu", not "Yuriev".

[Lisa]

Estonia and Livonia had their own laws and juridical systems. Those laws and systems were copied by the Russian empire/the Russian czar, to Europeanize/Westernize the Russian empire.



Wow. I haven't met a Russian chauvinist like you for ages. You probably worship Stalin too, for doing genocide on the Estonians and colonizing Estonia with the Russians.

Anyway, you should be placed next to a wall and be shot. :)

As a true supporter of cultural & ethnic European preservation, I despise people like you, who are strongly against cultural & ethnic European preservation. You are a chauvinist and a imperialist, thus your views are opposite to the views of people on this forum.



If you're not an immigrant in Estonia nor a Russian chauvinist who thinks that Estonia is a native Russian region and that Estonia should be a Russian province, then you're not a subhuman.

The more Russians I meet on the internet, the more I start to think that the Russians in Russia are even worse than the ones here. You're an exception, of course, but your compatriot, Nero, just represents a bad Russian stereotype.
Oh so many words Karl . I am Russian chauvinist as you Estonian chauvinist .

[Äike]

Oh so many words Karl . I am Russian chauvinist as you Estonian chauvinist .

I haven't claimed that the 2nd biggest city in Russia, St. Petersburg, is actually an Estonian city.

...Thus you're still the only imperialistic chauvinist here.

[esudagne]

Come on guys!
Look what I found -
Western Russians more similar to Estonians than to Northern Russians

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2009/04/western-russians-more-similar-to.html

[Mordid]

I thought Western Russians are similiar to Poles like me. :confused:

[Austrvegr]

Come on guys!
Look what I found -
Western Russians more similar to Estonians than to Northern Russians

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2009/04/western-russians-more-similar-to.html

That's because Estonians are a subdivision of Western Russians.

[Austrvegr]

I thought Western Russians are similiar to Poles like me. :confused:

Don't worry, Poles are a subdivision of Western Russians too.

[Onychodus]

Kinzha (Mezen district).
http://www.kimja.narod.ru/img/hor1.jpg
http://www.kimja.narod.ru/img/hor3.jpg
http://www.kimja.narod.ru/img/hor2.jpg
http://rustm.net/img/wysiwyg/50/p1010135_.jpg
http://www.uran.ru/gazetanu/2007/04/nu09-10/p10_f2.jpg
http://rustm.net/img/wysiwyg/50/p1010180_.jpg

[Äike]

That's because Estonians are a subdivision of Western Russians.

It has more to do with North-Westerm Russia being very Northern-European/Finnic still a few hundred years ago. The native Northern-Europeans didn't dissappear into nowhere, they assimilated. If St. Petersburg wouldn't have been built, Estonia and Finland might not be the only independent Finnic countries.

I hope that the Russians living in former Finnic areas value their Northern-European heritage.

Joint Estonian-Russian genetic research has pretty much proved that NW-Russians are more similar to Finno-Ugric(Finnic) people than Slavs.


This study looks at the relationship between Estonians and two Russian populations, from the North and West of the country (Mezen and Andreapol districts respectively) . Only 425 SNPs are used, from 25 genomic regions, and no comparisons made with other groups. It certainly would've been interesting to add Siberians, Central Europeans and Southern Russians to the analysis. Nevertheless, it's a useful effort, proving that Andreapolians are genetically more similar to the Finno-Ugrian Estonians than their own Russian brethren from Mezen.

Many Russians from that region could be teached to leave their alien Russian culture and mentality to become Finnic, not only by blood and ancestry, but also by culture. :thumb001:

[Laudanum]

That's because Estonians are a subdivision of Western Russians.


It has more to do with North-Westerm Russia being very Northern-European/Finnic still a few hundred years ago.

I just knew Karl was going to reply to that post.:D

[Äike]

I just knew Karl was going to reply to that post.:D

Estonia would definitely need more people. Those Russified Finnics could be Estonianized.

Russia during the Slavic expansion into native Northern-European/Finno-Ugric lands:

http://wiki.verbix.com/uploads/Languages/Finno-Volgaic.png

[Hess]

In terms of phenotype, the only time when russians display visible pseudo mongoliform phenotypes are in connection to the east Baltic race. However, this is not exclusive to Russia. Both the Batlic States, Estonia, and Finland all have East Baltids

[Mordid]

According to Karl, light hair and light eyes Russians must have Finnic blood.

[Mordid]

In terms of phenotype, the only time when russians display visible pseudo mongoliform phenotypes are in connection to the east Baltic race. However, this is not exclusive to Russia. Both the Batlic States, Estonia, and Finland all have East Baltids
http://i.verylol.com/1/funny_putin.jpg

[Äike]

In terms of phenotype, the only time when russians display visible pseudo mongoliform phenotypes are in connection to the east Baltic race. However, this is not exclusive to Russia. Both the Batlic States, Estonia, and Finland all have East Baltids

No pseudo-mongoloid people exist here, except some funny(Tatar influenced) looking Russian immigrants.

The pseudo-mongoloid traits among Russians have several explanations. Main reason: Normal borealization caused by a harsh and cold climate 2. Real non-European/Tatar-Mongol influence this includes dark features in most cases.


According to Karl, light hair and light eyes Russians must have Finnic blood.

Blondest region of Europe = The Finnic region(Finns being the blondest Europeans). The further you go from Finnic influenced Europe(the deeper you go into Russia, the less Finnic blood they have) the less blondes you see. This correlates with the north having more light-featured individuals.

[Mordid]

Blondest region of Europe = The Finnic region(Finns being the blondest Europeans). The further you go from Finnic influenced Europe(the deeper you go into Russia, the less Finnic blood they have) the less blondes you see. This correlates with the north having more light-featured individuals.

I agree.

[Hess]

No pseudo-mongoloid people exist here, except some funny(Tatar influenced) looking Russian immigrants.

east baltid= pseudo mongoliform features

Finland and Estonia both have East-Baltids

Therefore, some Finns and Estonians have pseudo-mongoliform features

[Mordid]

east baltid= pseudo mongoliform features

Finland and Estonia both have East-Baltids

Therefore, some Finns and Estonians have pseudo-mongoliform features

There are not just East Baltid Mongoliform but there are also Lappoid Mongoliform.

[Äike]

east baltid= pseudo mongoliform features

Finland and Estonia both have East-Baltids

Therefore, some Finns and Estonians have pseudo-mongoliform features

Here's the catch, Estonians and Finns don't look the same. It's not cold(like in Russia with it's cold inner-continental climate) enough here, for extreme borealization to happen.

You live on the other side of the globe and couldn't spot an Estonian even if one ran into you, but an Estonian can usually spot a Finn in Estonia(Tallinn has a lot of Finns).

[Mordid]

Here's the catch, Estonians and Finns don't look the same. It's not cold(like in Russia with it's cold inner-continental climate) enough here, for extreme borealization to happen.

You live on the other side of the globe and couldn't spot an Estonian even if one ran into you, but an Estonian can usually spot a Finn in Estonia(Tallinn has a lot of Finns).

I thought they both looks quite similiar. :confused:

[Onychodus]

It has more to do with North-Westerm Russia being very Northern-European/Finnic still a few hundred years ago. The native Northern-Europeans didn't dissappear into nowhere, they assimilated. If St. Petersburg wouldn't have been built, Estonia and Finland might not be the only independent Finnic countries.

I hope that the Russians living in former Finnic areas value their Northern-European heritage.

Joint Estonian-Russian genetic research has pretty much proved that NW-Russians are more similar to Finno-Ugric(Finnic) people than Slavs.



Many Russians from that region could be teached to leave their alien Russian culture and mentality to become Finnic, not only by blood and ancestry, but also by culture. :thumb001:

All Russian nation is a blend of Slavs and Balto-Finns. Even Moscow is a finish city.


to leave their alien Russian culture
Following this logic should not be such thing as "russian nation", so should not be such thing as "British nation", "French nation", "American nation, "Spaniard nation" and so on.

If you so liked northern russians, why Estonian and Latvian SS beastly slaughtered and starved to death 500000 beautiful blond blue-eyed balto-germanic looking russians in the Pskov region and Finns starved to death 1/3 of all Karelian Russians (so called damned Ryssa) in the concentration camps (mostly woman and children, many of whom had Finnish roots).

Finnish concentration camp in Karelia. Very Finish-looking children.
http://images.wikia.com/history/ru/images/b/b5/Fin_Con_camp.jpg

On the road to concentration camp
http://itaka.stv.ru/wikitaka/images/3/3f/Kom.jpg

Tortured and murdered russian soldiers, raped and murdered russian girl looks very Finnish.
http://itaka.stv.ru/wikitaka/images/6/6a/Tahvo2.jpg

[Äike]

I thought they both looks quite similiar. :confused:

We don't look similar. We are culturally, linguistically and by mentality very similar, though. Anthropologically, Estonians look more similar to Swedes than the Finns.


All Russian nation is a blend of Slavs and Balto-Finns. Even Moscow is a finish city.

Russians are a blend of everything, they're the most diverse/mixed European group.



Following this logic should not be such thing as "russian nation", so should not be such thing as "British nation", "French nation", "American nation, "Spaniard nation" and so on.

If you so liked northern russians, why Estonian and Latvian SS beastly slaughtered and starved to death 500000 beautiful blond blue-eyed balto-germanic looking russians in the Psov region and Finns starved to death 1/3 of all Karelian Russians (so called damned Ryssa) in the concentration camps (mostly woman and children, many of whom had Finnish roots).

Finnish concentration camp in Karelia. Very Finish-looking children.
http://images.wikia.com/history/ru/images/b/b5/Fin_Con_camp.jpg

On the road to concentration camp
http://itaka.stv.ru/wikitaka/images/3/3f/Kom.jpg

Tortured and murdered russian soldiers, raped and murdered russian girl looks very Finnish.
http://itaka.stv.ru/wikitaka/images/6/6a/Tahvo2.jpg

Propaganda.

[Onychodus]

We don't look similar. We are culturally, linguistically and by mentality very similar, though. Anthropologically, Estonians look more similar to Swedes than the Finns.



Russians are a blend of everything, they're the most diverse/mixed European group.




Propaganda.

Talking about deportation of balts is a propaganda also.
Finns starved to death about 25000 out of 60000 russians, which were not evacuated. There is a plan of total extarmination and deportation of all slavs in Karelia.

[Onychodus]

When Finns suggest about mongoloidness of russians I wonder how would Finns regard to their eastern finnish relative nations?

Komi girls
http://mariuver.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/jana_sazhina1.jpg
http://mariuver.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/natalja_kazminova1.jpg

Khanty girl
http://mariuver.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/natalja_fajrushina.jpg

Khanty
http://yamal.rgo.ru/files/2010/09/hanty-300x243.jpg
http://bigpicture.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/2426.jpg

[Lisa]

All Russian nation is a blend of Slavs and Balto-Finns. Even Moscow is a finish city.


Following this logic should not be such thing as "russian nation", so should not be such thing as "British nation", "French nation", "American nation, "Spaniard nation" and so on.

If you so liked northern russians, why Estonian and Latvian SS beastly slaughtered and starved to death 500000 beautiful blond blue-eyed balto-germanic looking russians in the Pskov region and Finns starved to death 1/3 of all Karelian Russians (so called damned Ryssa) in the concentration camps (mostly woman and children, many of whom had Finnish roots).

Finnish concentration camp in Karelia. Very Finish-looking children.
http://images.wikia.com/history/ru/images/b/b5/Fin_Con_camp.jpg

On the road to concentration camp
http://itaka.stv.ru/wikitaka/images/3/3f/Kom.jpg

Tortured and murdered russian soldiers, raped and murdered russian girl looks very Finnish.
http://itaka.stv.ru/wikitaka/images/6/6a/Tahvo2.jpg

Mean lie. Do not kill the Germans in Pskov Russians . You are just stupid troll.

[Hess]

All NE countries have a degree of Baltid influence, I don't see why this is such a big deal

[Lisa]

When Finns suggest about mongoloidness of russians I wonder how would Finns regard to their eastern finnish relative nations?

Komi girls
http://mariuver.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/jana_sazhina1.jpg
http://mariuver.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/natalja_kazminova1.jpg

Khanty girl
http://mariuver.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/natalja_fajrushina.jpg

Khanty
http://yamal.rgo.ru/files/2010/09/hanty-300x243.jpg
http://bigpicture.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/2426.jpg

Komi is very different. I think is not Komi . I hope you will be banned here .

[Äike]

All NE countries have a degree of Baltid influence, I don't see why this is such a big deal

That's where your lack of knowledge comes in.

West-Baltid, Baltid and East-Baltid are 3 different subraces.

Entire Northern-Europe is full of borealized Cro-magnons/Baltid looking individuals. But it's not cold enough in most places for extreme borealization to happen.

[Mordid]

That's where your lack of knowledge comes in.

West-Baltid, Baltid amd East-Baltid are 3 different subraces.

Yeah, he never get it. :D

[Onychodus]

Mean lie. Do not kill the Germans in Pskov Russians . You are just stupid troll.

Prove that i am lying.

Nazis with their SS Estonia and Latvian comrades executed about 10000 russians in Pskov region and all fugure of dead Pskovians is about 500000 (many died from famine and poor life conditions).

Latvian SS threw small russian children in the burning houses,in village Krasuha for example. About 10 villages were burned with their all inhabitants. Some Latvian SS commited the most monstrous crimes in northern regiones of Russia and Bellarussia. Even German soldiers were in shock.

[Hess]

That's where your lack of knowledge comes in.

West-Baltid, Baltid and East-Baltid are 3 different subraces.

Entire Northern-Europe is full of borealized Cro-magnons/Baltid looking individuals. But it's not cold enough in most places for extreme borealization to happen.

I am perfectly aware of this. I was merely pointing out that all three types exist in all NE countries.

[Onychodus]

I dont deny soviet crimes so you dont deny also these actions agains russians.


I hope you will be banned here
Reason, please.


Komi is very different. I think is not Komi
Yes, they are Kommi and they are different. But on my option eastern finns (like khanty and mansi) look more mongoloid than russians. My cousins are mordovian and they look quite mongoloid.

[Lisa]

Onychodus You sneaky liar .

[Onychodus]

[QUOTE=Onychodus;450249]Prove that i am lying.

Nazis with their SS Estonia and Latvian comrades executed about 10000 russians in Pskov region and all fugure of dead Pskovians is about 500000 (many died from famine and poor life conditions).

Latvian SS threw small russian children in the burning houses,in village Krasuha for example. About 10 villages were burned with their all inhabitants. Some Latvian SS commited the most monstrous crimes in northern regiones of Russia and Bellarussia. Even German soldiers were in shock.[/QUOTE ] You sneaky liar .

Stop insulting and give sources where i made lie.

[Äike]

I am perfectly aware of this. I was merely pointing out that all three types exist in all NE countries.

No they don't. As I said, on the shores of the Baltic sea, with a maritime climate, it isn't cold enough for the more borealized ones to exist(east-baltids). Russia has a inner-continental climate and has them, Finland is just very northern and also has more cold-adapted individuals.

[Mordid]

West Baltid and Baltid are common in Baltic state and Poland.

[Onychodus]

So Mordid, you also think that is only propaganda?

[Lisa]

[QUOTE=Nero;450257]

Stop insulting and give sources where i made lie.

Вы Просто подонок . There photos are not connected with Pskov or Russia .:mad:

[Onychodus]

[QUOTE=Onychodus;450263]

Вы Просто подонок . There photos are not connected with Pskov or Russia .:mad:

you insult me can you name reason?
These photos are from Karelia.

[Lisa]

[QUOTE=Nero;450272]

you insult me can you name reason?
These photos are from Karelia.
The new lie .:mad:

[Onychodus]

[QUOTE=Onychodus;450275]
The new lie .:mad:

So what is these photos are? Fake?

[Lisa]

[QUOTE=Nero;450277]

So what is these photos are? Fake?

Ok guy give a link of the source .

[Onychodus]

Find yourself.
There is a lot information about these events.

[Hess]

No they don't. As I said, on the shores of the Baltic sea, with a maritime climate, it isn't cold enough for the more borealized ones to exist(east-baltids). Russia has a inner-continental climate and has them, Finland is just very northern and also has more cold-adapted individuals.

Incorrect. Ive seen many Pics of Latvians and Lithuanians, and there was a fair percentage of East Baltids in addition to the more common west baltids

[Lisa]

find yourself.
There is a lot information about these events.
Я вам ответила - вы просто идиот и лжец!!!

[Onychodus]

Beautiful Vepses

http://dosug.ptz.ru/content/Image/2008/06/karina_belinskaja.gif
http://dosug.ptz.ru/content/Image/2008/06/vepsy_izba.gif
http://dosug.ptz.ru/content/Image/2008/06/vepsy_korona.gif
http://dosug.ptz.ru/content/Image/2008/06/vepsy_best_kostjum.gif
http://dosug.ptz.ru/content/Image/2008/06/vepsy_katja_sokolova.gif
http://dosug.ptz.ru/content/Image/2008/06/veniki.gif
http://www.finnougoria.ru/upload/iblock/346/kostum1.jpg
http://www.finnougoria.ru/upload/kostum.jpg

[Onychodus]

Я вам ответила - вы просто идиот и лжец!!!

You racist and hater, you hate all slavs.

[Onychodus]

More beautiful Vepses.

http://dosug.ptz.ru/content/Image/2009/01/veps2.gif
http://dosug.ptz.ru/content/Image/2009/01/veps1.gif
http://www.finnougoria.ru/upload/iblock/6c7/vepsy.jpg
http://newzz.in.ua/uploads/posts/2010-06/1277103155_39487562_vepsuy.jpg

[Austrvegr]

According to Karl, light hair and light eyes Russians must have Finnic blood.

In real life the original Finno-Ugrians were dark-haired and dark-eyed Uralids. Light eyes and light hair in modern Finno-Ugrians come from non-Finno-Ugrian sources.

Baltic Finns are mestizo peoples and like all mestizos they have a severe identity crisis, so they are better left alone altogether.

[Sikeliot]

Very few of the people posted in this thread look Mongoloid to me or even part.

[Mordid]

In real life the original Finno-Ugrians were dark-haired and dark-eyed Uralids. Light eyes and light hair in modern Finno-Ugrians come from non-Finno-Ugrian sources.

Baltic Finns are mestizo peoples and like all mestizos they have a severe identity crisis, so they are better left alone altogether.

Then explain why Finnic people like such as Estonians and Finns has very higher percent of light eyes and light hair ? :confused:

[Talvi]

Then explain why Finnic people like such as Estonians and Finns has very higher percent of light eyes and light hair ? :confused:

Because the old Estonians were very picky and only mixed with blonde blue eyed individuals. :)

[Austrvegr]

Then explain why Finnic people like such as Estonians and Finns has very higher percent of light eyes and light hair ? :confused:

Very high percent of light eyes and light hair = living around the Baltic Sea. The farther from the Baltic Sea Finno-Ugrians live, the darker they are (i.e. closer to the original Finno-Ugrian Uralid type).

[Lisa]

In real life the original Finno-Ugrians were dark-haired and dark-eyed Uralids. Light eyes and light hair in modern Finno-Ugrians come from non-Finno-Ugrian sources.

Baltic Finns are mestizo peoples and like all mestizos they have a severe identity crisis, so they are better left alone altogether.

Some Komi and Udmurts very blond . And lighter than the Lithuanians.

[Äike]

In real life the original Finno-Ugrians were dark-haired and dark-eyed Uralids. Light eyes and light hair in modern Finno-Ugrians come from non-Finno-Ugrian sources.

Baltic Finns are mestizo peoples and like all mestizos they have a severe identity crisis, so they are better left alone altogether.

The original Finno-Ugrians came from their proto homeland, the Volga river region, thus it makes senes that they have a more native Northern-European look than the Indo-Europeans who came from somewhere in Asia.


Very high percent of light eyes and light hair = living around the Baltic Sea. The farther from the Baltic Sea Finno-Ugrians live, the darker they are (i.e. closer to the original Finno-Ugrian Uralid type).

...and your "mestizo"/mixed Finnic people, the Finns are blonder than the racially pure and 100% European/Indo-European Scandinavians?

What a fine example of a Russian chauvinist you are. You have a infeniority complex towards the native people of Russia, I see.

I have met quite plenty of Udmurts, who live in the far-east, in relation to the Baltic sea. Even with their historic Tatar influences, they're still lighter and more red-haired than your average Russian.

[Lisa]

Very high percent of light eyes and light hair = living around the Baltic Sea. The farther from the Baltic Sea Finno-Ugrians live, the darker they are (i.e. closer to the original Finno-Ugrian Uralid type).

Not only around Baltic sea . And around White sea too. And ethnically Russians very depigmented of all Slavs - is a Finnish blood!

[Äike]

Not only around Baltic sea . And around White sea too. And ethnically Russians very depigmented of all Slavs - is a Finnish blood!

There are Russians in NW-Russia(Pskov region, Ingria, Novgorod etc.) who look so Northern-European that they could pass as natives in Estonia or Finland. That's indeed, Finnic blood.

[Austrvegr]

Not only around Baltic sea . And around White sea too. And ethnically Russians very depigmented of all Slavs - is a Finnish blood!

I do not think Russians are ligher than Northern Poles, who have almost no Finno-Ugrian admixture.

Also, there is no difference in pigmentation between Northern and Central/Southern Russians.

[Mordid]

I do not think Russians are ligher than Northern Poles, who have almost no Finno-Ugrian admixture.

Also, there is no difference in pigmentation between Northern and Central/Southern Russians.

Similiar to Poles. If you go to Southern Poland, you'd be surprised that there are many blondism type among them but at the same, there are a lot of rather brunette.

[esaima]

Nero: Finnish bloodFinnics question has been discussed before more than two times in this forum.
It looks that light blood in Baltic Sea area is connected to UP survivors. According to Wiik's theory UP survivors were direct ancestors of Finnics. According to other theories UP survivors weren't Finnic but spoke an other language and Finnics come later from Kama/Volga area to Baltic sea area.

[Lisa]

I do not think Russians are ligher than Northern Poles, who have almost no Finno-Ugrian admixture.

Also, there is no difference in pigmentation between Northern and Central/Southern Russians.

Russians not only lighter than the Poles. But have a longer head .Looks of this tables.http://s004.radikal.ru/i205/1106/61/3f0026c370bb.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)http://s008.radikal.ru/i303/1106/7a/4de1513ba6a0.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)http://s60.radikal.ru/i169/1106/12/39016e17f914.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)http://s016.radikal.ru/i335/1106/e8/e40820e2bbf1.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)

[Mordid]

Russians not only lighter than the Poles. But have a longer head .Looks of this tables.http://s004.radikal.ru/i205/1106/61/3f0026c370bb.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)http://s008.radikal.ru/i303/1106/7a/4de1513ba6a0.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)http://s60.radikal.ru/i169/1106/12/39016e17f914.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)http://s016.radikal.ru/i335/1106/e8/e40820e2bbf1.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)

Is that it ? I suggest you to go to Southern Poland and you'll be surprised that a lot of people are rather fair. We are much lighter than Russians but we are little bit darker than Belarusians.

[Lisa]

70% Poles is gorids and alpinids . Only people from Masuria have the north phenotype - baltids.

[Mordid]

70% Poles is gorids and alpinids . Only people from Masuria have the north phenotype - baltids.

You got it from da internet, right ? Majority of Poles are Norid, West Baltid, Baltid, East Nordid, Nord-Pontid, East Alpinid and other type.

Polish crowd :
xezBP5k6ysI

[Lisa]

I studied anthropology in university .

[Mordid]

I studied anthropology at university .

Yeah, right....

[Äike]

I do not think Russians are ligher than Northern Poles, who have almost no Finno-Ugrian admixture.

Also, there is no difference in pigmentation between Northern and Central/Southern Russians.

There are all kinds of Russians here, southern, central and northern ones. The differences in pigmentation are huge. Some Russians look like they wouldn't stick out in Greece(there's a cool story of a Russian stripper from Tallinn going to Greece to work, but was sent back after 1 month, for not being exotic to the Greeks and looking identical to them).


Finnics question has been discussed before more than two times in this forum.
It looks that light blood in Baltic Sea area is connected to UP survivors. According to Wiik's theory UP survivors were direct ancestors of Finnics. According to other theories UP survivors weren't Finnic but spoke an other language and Finnics come later from Kama/Volga area to Baltic sea area.

Finno-Ugric proto-region = Volga river region, while the Indo-Europeans came from considerably more southern places. Just make your own conclusions.

[Osweo]

Finno-Ugric proto-region = Volga river region, while the Indo-Europeans came from considerably more southern places.

What on Earth are you on about, Karl? The Pontic Steppe PIE Urheimat is immediately south of the Volga bend! If it's correct, the Finnics and IEans will have been in constant contact since the most recent of them first appeared. We are 'significant others'.

[Äike]

What on Earth are you on about, Karl? The Pontic Steppe PIE Urheimat is immediately south of the Volga bend! If it's correct, the Finnics and IEans will have been in constant contact since the most recent of them first appeared. We are 'significant others'.

There are many theories about the origin of the Indo-Europeans:

1. They came from the Balkan region

2. They came from Anatolia

3. They came from the Caucasus

4. They came from the Pontic Steppe

5. They came from India

...

Even if the Indo-Europeans came from the Pontic steppe, the Finno-Ugrians had dispersed from their ancient homeland, considerably before the Indo-Europeans.

The Setu people of South-Eastern Estonia sing folk songs that are 5000 years old. That might give you an impression of the timeline.

[Peerkons]

Prove that i am lying.

Nazis with their SS Estonia and Latvian comrades executed about 10000 russians in Pskov region and all fugure of dead Pskovians is about 500000 (many died from famine and poor life conditions).

Latvian SS threw small russian children in the burning houses,in village Krasuha for example. About 10 villages were burned with their all inhabitants. Some Latvian SS commited the most monstrous crimes in northern regiones of Russia and Bellarussia. Even German soldiers were in shock.

You made my day.:thumb001:

[Austrvegr]

There are all kinds of Russians here, southern, central and northern ones. The differences in pigmentation are huge. Some Russians look like they wouldn't stick out in Greece(there's a cool story of a Russian stripper from Tallinn going to Greece to work, but was sent back after 1 month, for not being exotic to the Greeks and looking identical to them).

I do not care about your fantasies.


Finno-Ugric proto-region = Volga river region, while the Indo-Europeans came from considerably more southern places. Just make your own conclusions.

Original Finno-Ugrians were dark Uralids from Siberia.

Original Indo-Europeans were light Nordids from East Europe.

Full stop.

[Austrvegr]

Nazis with their SS Estonia and Latvian comrades executed about 10000 russians in Pskov region and all fugure of dead Pskovians is about 500000 (many died from famine and poor life conditions).

Latvian SS threw small russian children in the burning houses,in village Krasuha for example. About 10 villages were burned with their all inhabitants. Some Latvian SS commited the most monstrous crimes in northern regiones of Russia and Bellarussia. Even German soldiers were in shock.


Yes, and German soldiers ate Soviet children.

I am not joking, the newspaper 'Pravda' wrote about it.

[Äike]

I do not care about your fantasies.

That's nice.


Original Finno-Ugrians were dark Uralids from Siberia.

No they weren't.


Original Indo-Europeans were light Nordids from East Europe.

No they weren't.


Full stop.

More like full retardation.

[Peerkons]

Yes, and German soldiers ate Soviet children.

I am not joking, the newspaper 'Pravda' wrote about it.


And Hitler drank blood of polish babies and ate marinated jewish fingers.
:D:lol00002:

[Onychodus]

And Hitler drank blood of polish babies and ate marinated jewish fingers.

They pumped blood of Ukrainian children out.

Николай Калашников и его сестра Вера Петрова, Ирина Конихина и Владимир Мещан были совсем маленькими, когда фашисты использовали их как доноров для немецких офицеров-летчиков. Но они смогли выжить…
Кто помнит: война, Сокольники?
Сокольники. Окраина Харькова. Здесь, в старинном особняке с колоннами, принадлежавшем когда-то помещику Уткину, располагался детский приют. Когда Харьков оккупировали гитлеровцы, приют с безобидной вывеской «Детский дом № 2» они превратили в источник жизни для офицеров рейха, а для большинства маленьких обитателей — в последнее место проживания. Анатолий Иванович Рева, бывший воспитанник приюта, рассказывает в своей книге, как у детей выкачивали кровь для раненых немецких офицеров. Он уверен: фашисты руководствовались теорией о биостимулирующем качестве крови голодных детей 4–7 лет. Многие умирали сразу после выкачки крови…
Владимиру Мещану сейчас 73 года. Он из немногих, кто тогда выжил. В Сокольники он попал четырехлетним.
— Мама с отцом не ладили. Знаете, как это бывает... В общем, бабушка с дедом забрали меня на воспитание. Когда началась война, а с ней и голод, им было нечем меня кормить. Вот и отвели в приют в Сокольники, там в то время уже хозяйничали фашисты. Нас там почти не кормили — давали какую-то баланду, а из приюта мы выйти не могли, — рассказывает Владимир Мещан.
Он помнит, как его вместе с остальными детьми от 5 до 10 лет по очереди заводили в серую машину с изображением красного креста. Внутри стояли столы, о которых очень хорошо помнит и Николай Калашников, один из самых старших в то время
узников детского дома.
— Женщины в белых халатах завели меня в серую машину. Я сразу почувствовал запах лекарств. Мне сделали укол, и я отключился...
— Я не хотел туда заходить, — вспоминает Владимир Мещан. Но меня завели, положили на спину и держали. Я вырывался. В какой-то момент удалось освободиться, но от рывка игла разорвала кожу на спине.
Еще не раз ему пришлось пережить эту ужасную процедуру, не понимая, что и зачем с ним делают. Повторится она и в другом приюте, куда маленького Володю перевели через несколько месяцев.
— Нас раздели. Погрузили в машины и забросали матрацами. Зачем? Мы до сих пор не знаем. Там, в комнате с одной кроватью, кроме меня были еще 3–4 человека. Мы разорвали матрац и по двое спасались в нем от холода. А холода стояли до 40 градусов! Нас держали в пустых помещениях. В отдельную комнату водили на забор крови. Как и раньше, не кормили. Старшие ребята таскали картошку и огурцы с соседних огородов, несмотря на то, что «воспитатели» запрещали это делать. Когда было что поесть — ели прямо на полу.
«Они думают, что нас не было...»
Организаторы «Максимилиан-Кольбе-Верк», пригласившие бывших воспитанников приюта в Сокольниках, уверены, что эти люди заслужили уважительное отношение. Поэтому насыщенная программа должна была показать гостям прежде всего новую, открытую и доброжелательную Германию. Важной была и встреча с госсекретарем Моникой Хельбиг, которая призналась, что даже не подозревала о том, что территория Сокольников — сплошная братская могила.
Николай Калашников рассказал, как фашисты сбрасывали с машин в ямы тела умерших детей и засыпали их снегом, поскольку замерзшую землю копать было нельзя. Утром воспитанники просыпались и видели растасканные и обглоданные голодными собаками останки.
— Я хорошо понимаю, что означает для вас посетить страну преступников, — призналась Моника Хельбиг. — Мы, конечно, не можем вернуть время. От имени граждан Германии мы можем только просить у вас прощение и делать все возможное, чтобы эти события больше не повторились и чтобы эта история никогда не была забыта!
Если бы на этом поставить точку, то получилась бы картина почти в стиле Голливуда — с торжеством справедливости и примирения жертв и потомков преступников. Но, к сожалению, история детей из Сокольников — это не фильм с хеппи-эндом. Когда госсекретарь Хельбиг сказала, что немцы многому на учились на примере войны и сохраняют эту память для будущих поколений, она наверняка не имела в виду печати и справки, подтверждающие случившееся. Но именно их требовали немецкие журналисты у пожилых людей, как доказательство их рассказов. Без печатей и справок немецкий режиссер-документалист не поверил, что гитлеровцы использовали детей в Сокольниках в качестве органических ресурсов для близлежащей немецкой клиники.
Расстроенный, со слезами на глазах, Калашников повторял: «Как я могу это доказать, кроме того, что я это видел?» Неудивительно, что документов почти нет. И воспоминания доживших до наших дней жертв детского дома № 2 теперь единственные свидетельства. Если Германия это признает, только тогда слова госсекретаря Хельбиг будут звучать искренне.

http://glorymuseum.ru/news/fashisty_ispolzovali_detej_kak_donorov_germanija_n e_verit/2010-07-27-343

[Peerkons]

Sorry, I don't understand dog language - write in language of the people.

[Onychodus]

Another link on the "Dog Language"

http://fakty.ua/135223-zaglyanuv-v-kladovuyu-ya-uvidela-slozhennye-v-shtabel-tela-detej

it is said that Nazi used small Ukrainian children as blood donors for wounded German soldiers. Hundreds children have died due to it.

[Austrvegr]

it is said that Nazi used small Ukrainian children as blood donors for wounded German soldiers. Hundreds children have died due to it.

Should we take at face value whatever Soviet propaganda said, because anything it said was 100% truth?

[Onychodus]

Should we take at face value whatever Soviet propaganda said, because anything it said was 100% truth?

Soviet propaganda? There is no SSSR anymore. it is said by survived Ukrainian (not even Russian) witnesses who were children at that time.

[Austrvegr]

Soviet propaganda? There is no SSSR anymore. it is said by survived Ukrainian (not even Russian) witnesses who were children at that time.

Yes, and they were for decades used as tools of Soviet propaganda, saying whatever they were told to say.

Sorry, I am not going to believe a single word of Soviet propaganda, unless it has an independent confirmation. The picture that I have from accounts of ordinary people (including my relatives) is hugely different.

[d3cimat3d]

Original Indo-Europeans were light Nordids from East Europe.
Full stop.

True that, but they weren't exactly uber-Nordids, though fair hair & eyes were not un-common. As far as pigmentation goes, I'd say they resembled Balkan people more than Russians. If you ignore the Mongoloid aspect in Mongols, what you have left is this:

http://www.ranhaer.com/attachments/forumid_28/110701032893153a943939cf08.png.thumb.jpg

East_European: 4.9
West_European: 4.9
Mediterannean: 2.8
West_Asian: 5.7
Southwest_Asian: 0.5

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

[Юлия]

Oh, Onychodus, save your nerves ;)
There is just some SS-guys, who wish to justify their Nazi Past (and, maybe, Nazi Present also).

P.S. Почитайте эту статью, чтобы отвести душу:
http://www.renascentia.ru/latvia.htm

:)

[AinoMaria]

When Finns suggest about mongoloidness of russians I wonder how would Finns regard to their eastern finnish relative nations?

Komi girls
http://mariuver.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/jana_sazhina1.jpg
http://mariuver.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/natalja_kazminova1.jpg

Khanty girl
http://mariuver.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/natalja_fajrushina.jpg

Khanty
http://yamal.rgo.ru/files/2010/09/hanty-300x243.jpg
http://bigpicture.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/2426.jpg

Those people look more like typical Russians than Komis

31184311853118631187

[AinoMaria]

And by the way, Russians are very attentive and careful to culture, traditions and to languages of native people. Festivals of Finno-Ugric culture are organized constantly, and languages of local nationalities are accepted as official languages of corresponding republics.

And, actually, Russians are not only blue-eyed blonds, it's just stupid stereotype. Russians can have hairs from light blond to dark brown. I'm from Russian family, and all members of our family have different hair and eye color. Moreover, it's very silly in our times to do conclusions about origin of the person because of hair color, when people have invented such remarkable thing as a hair-dye. In Russia there are many Russian girls, who love to
experiment with their appearance. By means of hair-dye they become blondes, red, brown-haired, brunettes and green or blue-dyed even, if soul wishes ;)

By the way, HI! :)

Lol for the first, thats not stereotype, i dont think were many people think that it's stereotype, blue eyes and blond hair mostly comes from the finnics.

And the "attentive" LOL they are like intentionally driving finno-ugric languages to the death, i just red about radio station in Mari El starting to play rap music in Mari language, that as the end of that radio station. And they really are careful, since it's about illegal in Russia to tell foreign media anything neative about conditions of finno-ugric people living there.

[Proto-Shaman]

This sounds quite correct, since Turanids are of Europoid stock.

[Proto-Shaman]

http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/q71/s720x720/1004457_342777155854522_1577994372_n.jpg
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=32087&d=1366404232
http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/q71/s720x720/1014212_698078400205985_924542072_n.jpg

[Chocolate_Hound]

If we are talking about ethnic Russians in total, I would say that percentage you listed is lower than usual. I have witnessed Russians especially past Moscow and they look noticeably more Mongoloid than the average European. Comparing them to Germans or Poles isn't even a question at that longitude, if you're experienced with phenotypes you can instantly tell who is who. East Slavs in general have this specific head shape, you know it when you see it.

A Brit and a Russian are almost instantly recognizable from each other. It's not the complexion, it's the features.

[Borealis]

If we are talking about ethnic Russians in total, I would say that percentage you listed is lower than usual. I have witnessed Russians especially past Moscow and they look noticeably more Mongoloid than the average European. Comparing them to Germans or Poles isn't even a question at that longitude, if you're experienced with phenotypes you can instantly tell who is who. East Slavs in general have this specific head shape, you know it when you see it.

A Brit and a Russian are almost instantly recognizable from each other. It's not the complexion, it's the features.

I think East Slavs just inherently look different from British Islanders regardless of whether they have Mongoloid admixture or not. But in the case of Russians north and east of the capital, they do have it so their appearance is a greater departure from the average Brit than even a Belarusian.

[Borealis]

A comparison of Russians with other east Slavs, Finnish, and Saami. We can see that Belarusians score no Mong(Krasnoyarsk_BA) and Ukrainians very little if at all, while many Russian groups do. Some, mostly Arkhangelskis/Pomors, even more than the Finnish. The Russian average for the country would fall somewhere in between Belarusians and Finns, as I have said countless times. Phenotype reflects it too.

Target: Finnish_Southwest
Distance: 2.9914% / 0.02991414
39.6 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
31.6 Baltic_EST_IA
24.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
4.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Finnish_Southeast
Distance: 2.2838% / 0.02283790
60.0 Baltic_EST_IA
35.8 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
4.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Finnish_North
Distance: 3.1153% / 0.03115273
54.6 Baltic_EST_IA
30.4 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
8.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
6.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Finnish_East
Distance: 1.9532% / 0.01953181
71.4 Baltic_EST_IA
22.4 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
6.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Finnish_Central
Distance: 2.2522% / 0.02252169
52.2 Baltic_EST_IA
35.8 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
6.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
5.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
Distance: 2.0438% / 0.02043750
92.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
8.0 Baltic_EST_IA

Target: Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
Distance: 2.9644% / 0.02964366
87.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
11.6 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
1.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Ukrainian_Sumy
Distance: 2.0399% / 0.02039932
94.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
5.8 Baltic_EST_IA

Target: Ukrainian_Rivne
Distance: 1.7729% / 0.01772902
87.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
12.4 Baltic_EST_IA

Target: Ukrainian_Lviv
Distance: 2.4321% / 0.02432108
96.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
4.0 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA

Target: Ukrainian_Dnipro
Distance: 1.9336% / 0.01933565
88.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
10.4 Baltic_EST_IA
1.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Ukrainian_Chernihiv
Distance: 1.9849% / 0.01984891
86.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
13.0 Baltic_EST_IA
0.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Belarusian
Distance: 1.8813% / 0.01881300
75.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
24.6 Baltic_EST_IA

Target: Saami
Distance: 3.2775% / 0.03277476
64.2 Baltic_EST_IA
25.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
10.2 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA

Target: Russian_Yaroslavl
Distance: 2.1786% / 0.02178645
59.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
37.6 Baltic_EST_IA
2.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Russian_Voronez
Distance: 1.8108% / 0.01810802
84.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
15.0 Baltic_EST_IA
0.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Russian_Tver
Distance: 1.7668% / 0.01766805
65.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
31.6 Baltic_EST_IA
2.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Russian_Smolensk
Distance: 2.0579% / 0.02057914
82.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
17.4 Baltic_EST_IA

Target: Russian_Ryazan
Distance: 2.0765% / 0.02076515
81.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
16.2 Baltic_EST_IA
2.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Russian_Pskov
Distance: 1.8184% / 0.01818440
52.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
47.8 Baltic_EST_IA

Target: Russian_Pinezhsky
Distance: 2.0873% / 0.02087283
69.8 Baltic_EST_IA
11.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
9.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
9.2 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA

Target: Russian_Pinega
Distance: 2.2325% / 0.02232494
65.0 Baltic_EST_IA
25.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
9.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
0.4 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA

Target: Russian_Orel
Distance: 1.9786% / 0.01978628
86.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
11.6 Baltic_EST_IA
1.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Russian_Leshukonsky
Distance: 2.5789% / 0.02578865
67.4 Baltic_EST_IA
13.8 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
12.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
6.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Russian_Kursk
Distance: 1.7536% / 0.01753574
77.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
20.8 Baltic_EST_IA
1.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Russian_Krasnoborsky
Distance: 1.7528% / 0.01752757
46.2 Baltic_EST_IA
39.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
7.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
6.6 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA

Target: Russian_Kostroma
Distance: 1.9299% / 0.01929922
50.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
38.0 Baltic_EST_IA
5.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
5.4 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA

Target: Russian_Kaluga
Distance: 2.1595% / 0.02159547
69.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
29.4 Baltic_EST_IA
0.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Russian_Belgorod
Distance: 2.1521% / 0.02152139
92.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
6.8 Baltic_EST_IA
1.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

[sevruk]

If we are talking about ethnic Russians in total, I would say that percentage you listed is lower than usual. I have witnessed Russians especially past Moscow and they look noticeably more Mongoloid than the average European. Comparing them to Germans or Poles isn't even a question at that longitude, if you're experienced with phenotypes you can instantly tell who is who. East Slavs in general have this specific head shape, you know it when you see it.

A Brit and a Russian are almost instantly recognizable from each other. It's not the complexion, it's the features.

who is Russian and who is British?
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRogZkwMeILKoaulNw4sFiHP07a-aZ6cN8s_A&usqp=CAU
https://stuki-druki.com/biofoto2/danila-yakushev-01.jpg

[Cossack]

A comparison of Russians with other east Slavs, Finnish, and Saami. We can see that Belarusians score no Mong(Krasnoyarsk_BA) and Ukrainians very little if at all, while many Russian groups do. Some, mostly Arkhangelskis/Pomors, even more than the Finnish. The Russian average for the country would fall somewhere in between Belarusians and Finns, as I have said countless times. Phenotype reflects it too.

Target: Finnish_Southwest
Distance: 2.9914% / 0.02991414
39.6 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
31.6 Baltic_EST_IA
24.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
4.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Finnish_Southeast
Distance: 2.2838% / 0.02283790
60.0 Baltic_EST_IA
35.8 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
4.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Finnish_North
Distance: 3.1153% / 0.03115273
54.6 Baltic_EST_IA
30.4 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
8.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
6.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Finnish_East
Distance: 1.9532% / 0.01953181
71.4 Baltic_EST_IA
22.4 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
6.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Finnish_Central
Distance: 2.2522% / 0.02252169
52.2 Baltic_EST_IA
35.8 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
6.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
5.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
Distance: 2.0438% / 0.02043750
92.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
8.0 Baltic_EST_IA

Target: Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
Distance: 2.9644% / 0.02964366
87.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
11.6 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
1.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Ukrainian_Sumy
Distance: 2.0399% / 0.02039932
94.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
5.8 Baltic_EST_IA

Target: Ukrainian_Rivne
Distance: 1.7729% / 0.01772902
87.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
12.4 Baltic_EST_IA

Target: Ukrainian_Lviv
Distance: 2.4321% / 0.02432108
96.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
4.0 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA

Target: Ukrainian_Dnipro
Distance: 1.9336% / 0.01933565
88.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
10.4 Baltic_EST_IA
1.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Ukrainian_Chernihiv
Distance: 1.9849% / 0.01984891
86.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
13.0 Baltic_EST_IA
0.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Belarusian
Distance: 1.8813% / 0.01881300
75.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
24.6 Baltic_EST_IA

Target: Saami
Distance: 3.2775% / 0.03277476
64.2 Baltic_EST_IA
25.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
10.2 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA

Target: Russian_Yaroslavl
Distance: 2.1786% / 0.02178645
59.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
37.6 Baltic_EST_IA
2.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Russian_Voronez
Distance: 1.8108% / 0.01810802
84.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
15.0 Baltic_EST_IA
0.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Russian_Tver
Distance: 1.7668% / 0.01766805
65.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
31.6 Baltic_EST_IA
2.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Russian_Smolensk
Distance: 2.0579% / 0.02057914
82.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
17.4 Baltic_EST_IA

Target: Russian_Ryazan
Distance: 2.0765% / 0.02076515
81.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
16.2 Baltic_EST_IA
2.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Russian_Pskov
Distance: 1.8184% / 0.01818440
52.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
47.8 Baltic_EST_IA

Target: Russian_Pinezhsky
Distance: 2.0873% / 0.02087283
69.8 Baltic_EST_IA
11.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
9.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
9.2 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA

Target: Russian_Pinega
Distance: 2.2325% / 0.02232494
65.0 Baltic_EST_IA
25.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
9.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
0.4 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA

Target: Russian_Orel
Distance: 1.9786% / 0.01978628
86.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
11.6 Baltic_EST_IA
1.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Russian_Leshukonsky
Distance: 2.5789% / 0.02578865
67.4 Baltic_EST_IA
13.8 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA
12.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
6.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad

Target: Russian_Kursk
Distance: 1.7536% / 0.01753574
77.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
20.8 Baltic_EST_IA
1.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Russian_Krasnoborsky
Distance: 1.7528% / 0.01752757
46.2 Baltic_EST_IA
39.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
7.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
6.6 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA

Target: Russian_Kostroma
Distance: 1.9299% / 0.01929922
50.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
38.0 Baltic_EST_IA
5.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
5.4 VK2020_SWE_Malmo_VA

Target: Russian_Kaluga
Distance: 2.1595% / 0.02159547
69.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
29.4 Baltic_EST_IA
0.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Russian_Belgorod
Distance: 2.1521% / 0.02152139
92.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
6.8 Baltic_EST_IA
1.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

There are a lot of people with Turkic facial features in Ukraine.I think Ukrainians have much more Mongoloid genes than Russians.My ancestors from the south of Russia had Pontic and Baltic phenotypes, but as soon as they moved to Ukraine and mixed with Ukrainians, they immediately acquired a small Mongoloid influence.And this is not surprising.Back in the days of Kievan Rus, the princes settled various nomadic hordes in Porosye (Pechenegs, Torks, Berendeyev, Kouev, Kapichi, Turpeyev and Bastiev).They mixed and assimilated with the local population.Arab chronicles claim that there were so many nomads, that Kievan Rus was called "The whole land of Russian and black hoods."

[Borealis]

There are a lot of people with Turkic facial features in Ukraine.I think Ukrainians have much more Mongoloid genes than Russians.My ancestors from the south of Russia had Pontic and Baltic phenotypes, but as soon as they moved to Ukraine and mixed with Ukrainians, they immediately acquired a small Mongoloid influence.And this is not surprising.Back in the days of Kievan Rus, the princes settled various nomadic hordes in Porosye (Pechenegs, Torks, Berendeyev, Kouev, Kapichi, Turpeyev and Bastiev).They mixed and assimilated with the local population.Arab chronicles claim that there were so many nomads, that Kievan Rus was called "The whole land of Russian and black hoods."

People can look mongoloid without necessarily being mongoloid at all and vice versa. Yea many Ukrainians can have pseudo mong features as can many Balts. But the genuine East Asian ancestry in notable quantities is found in northern(Arctic) and eastern(Ural) Rus. And why not? Northern Ukraine and Belarus were within Kievan Rus. Only about half of European Russia was and even then, places like Yaroslavl, Kostroma, etc. still have Finnic ancestry despite that.