Heathen Values and Morals

[Oresai]

I would imagine, that heathen values are not so different from `other` values.
Most pro European and heathen folks I meet tend to have certain values and ethics in common.
Courage...
Loyalty...
Honour...
Self Reliance, not sure if you could class that as a value, but to me, it certainly is. :)
I know that many heathens also follow the Nine Noble Virtues.

My own values come from three places, chiefly..
my uprbringing. I was raised in a traditional Scots folkloric family and certain values, and ways of being and behaving, were instilled in me.
My heritage...through family tree research, plus archaeological and some historical study, I put together, subconsciously, a pattern of how my ancestors lived, and from discussion with the eldest of my relatives, gained some insight into how their mindset may have been, of their elders, their parents and grandparents, how they lived and how they acted in matters of moral and integrity. And life experience.
The concepts of wyrd, frith, and luck, which was very important to the ancestors, colours my behaviour and mindset daily.
I long, long ago learned that typical xtian values were not automatically similar to my own..
for example, I never turn the other cheek and forgive wrongs...;)
`Worship` of the gods, has almost become a dirty word nowadays, due to the mindset which believes to worship...that is, to show respect and curry the favour of a being we consider more powerful than us, and sacred....because they believe to worship is a weakness, as if we somehow really ARE at the top of the tree...
but show me the man who can cheat Death, or who can fight, without aid, certain mortal diseases, or show me the man who can go bare handed head on with a great bear or big cat, for example...
we have our place in nature but I doubt it`s at the top, for all our considerable brain power. :)
I view my heathen gods as beings and archetypal symbols belonging to specific bloodlines and heritage. I believe the landscape shapes the gods of a people, that the gods are always `there`, always have been, but that we interract with them according to how our heritage and culture shapes us.
If that makes sense..suspect not, but never mind. :D
My ancestors worshipped their gods, in their own way. Seldom requiring the services of priest or intermediary to connect with them, and having a healthy pragmatic relationship with them....if a chosen god, petitioned for aid, supplied none, well then the petitioner would simply look elsewhere within the pantheon of their people`s gods.
Results matter, you see, and that is also one of my values...integrity. To remain true to my beliefs, what I hold dear and most importantly, what works...

My own moral code is offbeat compared to mainstream society`s.
To some, it`s even considered brutal. But it works. It ties me to my ancestors and that, to me, is particularly heathen.
It is rooted in the past but brought up to date because I don`t live in the past, yet the past lives in me, all of us, always.
My ethics are tied into frith, into living what I perceive as a `right` life.
Under the umbrella of my values and ethics, I`ve sometimes had to make hard choices, to perform deeds that have seemed harsh, brutal even, and often forged ahead on frightening paths that should have had me turning tail and running for cover.
But holding heathen values is what kept me going. Believing in my heathen values, is what keeps me going.

I`d be really interested to know what values others hold to, and how they are coloured by your heathenism, and how it has affected your life, for good or ill, if anyone would be kind enough to participate. :)

[YggsVinr]

As I mentioned in another thread, my relationship with pre-Christian Germanic religion is a little different than others.

If we're looking at heathen values from a historical perspective, I think on the most basic level we would be looking at such social values and preferred traits as bravery, levelheadedness and quick-mindedness in difficult situations, loyalty to family, hospitality, keeping one's oaths, confidence, hardiness, industriousness, and daring.

We would also have to realise that values might alter according to what part of the social strata you might belong to. Even beyond change in religion, there was good reason why berserks were often feared and looked down upon by the local population. The values of the war-cult would have been different than those of the king himself, of the average warrior who left the cult as his youth faded, the common man, or even the slave.

I know there are many here who adhere to them, but I find such interpretations of heathen values as the "nine noble virtues" to be too modernized and romanticized for my liking. Evidently courage, loyalty, hospitality, self-reliance, and industriousness were quite important. But use of the word "fidelity" irks me a little since it has different connotations than the term "loyalty", and there are many instances in the literature and history in which such a trait is not viewed as entirely practical or followed. The Germanic notions of "truth" were different than our own, and, again, I'm not sure we can safely say that our own notion was something that was adhered to (particularly when it came to upholding loyalty to family, blood brothers, or other oaths). Honour is also a difficult term, and again would be redefined according to which part of the social strata you belonged to.

My own concentration is on Odin, and what I enjoy most about the deity is his unpredictability, which is likely why he (as well as those dedicated to him) was, to an extent, feared by the average man. The average man would have taken oaths quite seriously, and yet Odin's approach to the oath is one that can be interpreted in many ways. By breaking his oath Odin still maintains it, by not granting a warrior victory in the physical world he grants him a place in Valhalla. There is a sense of wisdom in the unpredictable, in the notion that the "rolling stone gathers no moss", that even steel may betray its master, and nothing is certain. It is a very martial world view and one I have a lot of respect for, one I hold highly. I find myself thinking of Hervör daring to come alone on Samsey among the barrows of the deceased berserks and summoning Angantyr through verse, as well as of her granddaughter of the same name who was slain fighting the Huns. As such I find myself most interested in the values of bravery, daring, levelheadedness and quick-mindedness, industriousness, the finality of an oath or a goal, and most importantly independence or self-sovereignty.

[Lyfing]

I go with the NNV and the 88 Precepts. And, a few I’ve came up with on my own.

Following is a quote from Moody Lawless’s blog which one could find interesting along these lines. There is more to it and I stop quoted where the more begins..


It might be philosophically interesting to compare the 88 Precepts with the 9 Noble Virtues.

The obvious difference is that there are 79 more Precepts!

Life is complex, so maybe even 88 precepts is not enough, and perhaps 9 virtues too, is*not quite enough*to guide one's life.

The Nine Noble Virtues are vague and not specific. Nor do they refer to*race*in any way:

9 NV:

courage,
truth,
honor,
fidelity,
discipline,
hospitality,
industriousness,
self reliance,
perseverance.

They do not state whether one should tell the truth at all times or whether we should tell the truth only to our fellows. Nor do they tell us whether we should be hospitable to all and sundry or only to our fellows etc., etc.

There is no mention of the psychological, sexual, or religious life either [the gods are not even mentioned]. Nor is there anything to do with politics or metaphysics etc.,
Neither is there any guide on legal matters.
They are not racially specific because every culture on earth will lay claim to these virtues. There is also no mention in them of*Preservation*- an important ethical concept in my view.

In all, they are inadequate as a guide to life in any meaningful philosophical sense as they are unclear on what will happen to someone who is uncouragous, untruthful, dishonourable, infidelitous, indisciplined, inhospitable, unindustrious, unself-reliant, and unpersevering.

Also the inclusion of "industriousness" smacks of the Protestant owrk ethic and is quite ignoble in my view.

McNallen's version of the*Nine*just say that one thing is "better" than they other;

1. Strength is better than weakness

2. Courage is better than cowardice

3. Joy is better than guilt

4. Honour is better than dishonour

5. Freedom is better than slavery

6. Kinship is better than alienation

7. Realism is better than dogmatism

8. Vigour is better than lifelessness

9. Ancestry is better than universalism

So where is the imperative to live in a certain way? Can we tell a lie and say, 'I know it would have been "better" to tell the truth, but you know, I couldn't get it right that day'?
And aren't there times when it is "better"*not*to tell the truth? - I've just noticed, McNallen doesn't even include*truth as a virtue!


Obviously, the 88 Precepts are an attempt to give something far more useful on an ethical and moral basis - something to chew on, which is sorely lacking in the 9NV.

http://m-o-o-dy-l-a-w-l-e-s-s.blogspot.com/

…

Values and/or Morals seem to be pretty darn important in many different ways and on many different levels. We all have some kind of a con-science that we have to live with, and we all have to live with each other in a society of some kind. Maybe we are just con-ing everyone and really we are savages..??( Often one groups notions are so different than the nexts as to coin a word such as savage ) Or, maybe upholding certain notions really does make us feel better about ourselves and make for a more sustainable culture within which we are a part of and thus perpetuate. In other words, there are societies with their respective moralities and it is maybe within those two that the individual therein becomes one (or complete).

Anyhow, Joseph Campbell came up with what he called “The Four Functions of Mythology”. I’m a big fan of his because I see “The Heroes Journey” all the time, in my life, and in everyone’s around me. It’s pretty much the blueprint of us humans as far as I can tell.

His third function of mythology is..


..to support the current social order, to integrate the individual organically with his group; and here again, in the long view, we see that a gradual amplification of the scope and content of the group has been the characteristic sign of man’s advance from the early tribal cluster to the modern post-Alexandrian concept of a sing world-society. Against the amplitude of this challenging larger concept numerous provinces still stand out, as, for example, those of the various national, racial, religious, or class mythologies, which may once have had their reason but today are out of date.

The social function of a mythology and of the rites by which it is rendered is to establish in every member of the group concerned a “system of sentiments’ that can be depended upon to link him spontaneously to its ends. The “system of sentiments” proper to a hunting tribe would be improper to an agricultural one; that proper to a matriarchy is improper to a patriarchy; and that of any tribal group is improper to this day of developed individuals crossing paths from east to west and from north to south.

The older mythic orders gave authority to their symbols by attributing them to gods, to culture heroes, or to some such high impersonal force as the order of the universe; and the image of society itself, thus linked to the greater image of nature, became a vessel of religious awe. Today we know, for the most part, that our laws are not from God or from the universe, but from ourselves; are conventional, not absolute; and that in breaking them we offend not God but man. Neither animals nor plants, not the zodiac or its supposed maker, but our fellows have now become the masters of our fate and we of theirs. In the recent past it may have been possible for intelligent men of good will honestly to believe that their own society ( whatever it happened to be ) was the only good, that beyond its bounds were the enemies of God, and that they were called upon, consequently, to project the principle of hatred outward upon the world, while cultivating love within, toward those whose “system of sentiments” was of God. Today, however, there is no such outward. Enclaves of national, racial, religious, and class provincialism persist, but the physical facts have made closed horizons illusory. The old god is dead, with his little world and his little, closed society. The new focal center of belief and trust is mankind. And if the principle of love cannot be wakened actually within each--as it was mythologically in God--to master the principle of hate, the Waste Land alone can be our destiny and the masters of the world its fiends.

Occidental Mythology, Pages 520-521

To further illustrate this third function, I present the following from Creative Mythology.


3. The Social Prospect

Nor is the situation more comforting in the moral, social sphere of our third traditional mythological function: the validation and maintenance of an established order. In the words of the late John Dewey (1859-1952)

Christianity proffered a fixed revelation of absolute, unchanging Being and truth; and the revelation was elaborated into a system of definite rules and ends for the direction of life. Hence “morals” were conceived as a code of laws, the same everywhere and at all times. The good life was one lived in a fixed adherence to fixed principles.
In contrast with all such beliefs, the outstanding fact in all branches of natural science is that to exist is to be in process, in change…
Victorian thought conceived of new conditions as if they merely put in our hands effective instruments for realizing old ideals. The shock and uncertainty so characteristic of the present marks the discovery that the older ideals themselves are undermined. Instead of science and technology giving us better means for bringing them to pass, they are shaking our confidence in all large and comprehensive beliefs and purposes.

Such a phenomenon is, however, transitory. The impact of the new forces is for the time being negative. Faith in the divine author and authority in which Western civilization confided, inherited ideas of the soul and its destiny, of fixed revelation, of completely stable institutions, of automatic progress, have been made impossible for the cultivated mind of the Western world. It is psychologically natural that the outcome should be a collapse of faith in all fundamental organizing and directive ideas. Skepticism becomes the mark and even the pose of the educated mind. It is the more influential because it is no longer directed against this and that article of the older creeds but is rather a thematic participation on the part of such ideas in the intelligent direction of affairs.
It is in such a context that a thoroughgoing philosophy of experience, framed in the light of science and technique, has its significance…
A philosophy of experience will accept at its full value the fact that social and moral existences are, like the physical existences, in a state of continuous if obscure change. It will not try to cover up the fact of inevitable modification, and will make no attempt to set fixed limits to the extent of changes that are to occur. For the futile effort to achieve security and anchorage in something fixed, it will substitute the effort to determine the character of changes that are going on and to give them in the affairs that concern us most some measure of intelligent direction…
Wherever the thought of fixity rules, that of all-inclusive unity rules also. The popular philosophy of life is filled with desire to attain such an all-embracing unity, and the formal philosophies haved been devoted to an intellectual fulfillment of the desire. Consider the place occupied in popular thought by search for the meaning of life and the purpose of the universe. Men who look for single purport and a single end either frame an idea of them according to their private desires and tradition, or else, not finding any such single unity, give up in despair and conclude that there is no genuine meaning and value of life’s episodes.
The alternatives are not exhaustive, however. There is no need of deciding between no meaning at all and on single, all poses in the situations with which are confronted-one, so to say, for each situation. Each offers its own challenge to thought and endeavor, and presents its own potential value.

In sum: the individual is no on his own. “It is all untrue! Anything goes!” (Nietzsche). The dragon “Thou Shalt!” has been slain-for us all. Therin the danger! Anfortas too was installed thorough no deed, no virtue of his own, upon the seat of power: Lord of the World Center, which, as Cusanus knew, is in each. The wheel on the head of the Bodhisattva, revolving with its painful cutting edge : Who can bear it? Who can teach us to bear it as a crown, not of thorns, but of laurel: the wreath of our own Lady Orgeluse?

The nihilist’s question, “Why?” {wrote Nietzsche} is a product of his earlier habitude of expecting an aim to be given, to be set for him, from without- I.e. by some superhuman authority or other. When he has learned not to believe in such a thing, he goes on, just the same, from habit, looking for another authority of some kind that will be able to speak unconditionally and set goals and tasks by command. The authority of Conscience now is the first to present itself (the more emancipated from theology, the more imperative morality becomes) as compensation for a personal authority. Or the authority of Reason. Or the Social Instinct ( the herd ). Or History, with an immanent spirit that has a goal of its own, to which one can give oneself. One wants, by all means, to get around having to will, to desire a goal, to set up a goal for oneself: one wants to avoid the responsibility (-accepting fatalism ). Finally: Happiness, and with a certain Tartuffe, the Happiness of the Majority.

One says to oneself: 1. A definite goal is unnecessary, 2. Is impossible to foresee.

And so, precisely when what is required is Will in its highest power, it is at its weakest and most faint-hearted, in Absolute Mistrust of the Organizational Force of the Will-to-be-a-Whole.
…
Nihilism is of two faces:

A. Nihilism, as the sign of a heightened power of the spirit: active nihilism.

B. Nihilism, as a decline and regression of the power of the spirit: passive nihilism.

Attempts to escape from nihilism without transvaluing earlier values only bring about opposite escape: a sharpening of the problem.

Pages 621-623


Now he says “there is no such outward. Enclaves of national, racial, religious, and class provincialism persist, but the physical facts have made closed horizons illusory. The old god is dead, with his little world and his little, closed society. The new focal center of belief and trust is mankind.” and then he goes onto say “In sum: the individual is now on his own. “It is all untrue! Anything goes!” (Nietzsche). The dragon “Thou Shalt!” has been slain-for us all. “ and “Attempts to escape from nihilism without transvaluing earlier values only bring about opposite escape: a sharpening of the problem. “

What this all seems to say to me is that while there are worthwhile notions of morality they have only to do with the society in question. I mean, “if a tree falls in the woods and there is nobody around to hear it, did it really fall.” All alone it matters not what we do. Only when we are together does it matter. And, when we do it together we are one.

Here I want to post this quote of something that can’t be clicked on anymore about Wyrd and the Waer Wer.. Since, there is no doubt a certain something with us and what we do with each other..


That concept is of the WYRD. This is the central Indo-European concept which comes out of our analysis of the Germanic conception of time. We have identified the wyrd with the experience of the flow of completion. The person who knows the wyrd is in harmony with what is being laid down by the single source of all causation. That person is submitting to the decree from out-of-time which manifests the eternal in the instant. This is equated with the speaking of the orlog or primal speech. It is no wonder in this light that "wyrd" and "word" are related by the mutation of vowels. One meaning of wyrd is to be verbose, even though the stronger meaning is "fated" or "destined." Following the natural associations with other words through vowel mutation, we also note that wyrd and word are also related to "ward" and "world." This makes sense because old English `weard' means protection or guardianship of a warden. But "weard" also has connotations of direction as in "backward" or "forward." The word "wered/werod" means "clothed, covered or protected." Thus, "ward" means that which is protected actively by warding off. In Chinese the is called "wu chi" -- defensive energy. Its opposite is represented by the words "wierding/wierdan" which both imply "bodily injury or damage." Thus, by changing the vowel we move from protection to what results from lack of protection. Notice also that "werod/wered/weorod" means "a band of men, people , army, host, throng." It is precisely by banding together as a group that protection, through defensive energy, becomes possible. It is also the group that projects a unique intersubjectively validated and maintained "world." In the group the men speak words to build a world that wards off dangers. It is in this ambience that the "wyrd" is made manifest through completion of what is destined by the single source of all causation. It is interesting in this context to note that the Anglo-Saxons tended to adopt an Old Testament-oriented form of Christianity. They emphasized the role of a single god who ruled and destined all the events of the world. This form of Christianity explained the efficacy of the wyrd and allowed the Germanic peoples to accept the role of Jesus as the "word" of God.

Of importance in this context is the fact that the man is called "wer" in Old English. "Werwolf" means man-wolf. That "wer" is part of the wyrd/word/ward/world constellation is no accident. A wer is also a dam or fish trap or catch. On the other hand, "war" means sand or seaweed. "Wearr" means to be callused. "Wir" means wire or metal thread and also myrtle. "Wor" is equivalent to "wos" meaning sap or juice. "Wosa" means a man or being who consumes food. But beyond all these, "Waer" means both true, correct and security; covenant, trust, faith, fidelity, pledge, protection, and keeping. The picture emerges from this constellation of related roots that "man"-wer, as part of the group, must be true and correct in order to be trusted. It is that trust that makes possible the protection of the group. "Wearr" signifies protection. The dam or catching device secondary meaning of "wer" also indicates the protective, enclosing nature of the ward which is simultaneously directed outward as in the hunt. Wier is used to make the armor worn by the armed man. Our word for WAR is traced to Middle English "warre." It is known to be of Germanic origin. Werian means to be wary, beware, guard, protect; while "warig" means covered, soiled with seaweed, full of seaweed. "Warnian" means to take warning, take heed, warn, caution, guard oneself against. One slowly gets the drift of these constellated words which is that seaweed covers and protects. It wraps around and clings to whatever gets tangled in it. "War," in our sense, is only the active outward manifestation of this protective energy that needs to be wrapped around the group for all to survive. The less active manifestation is in terms of waryness and warning. Thus, the "wer" must be fully integrated into the group, ready to wage war or to warn, and he must always be "waer" or true to the group of which he is a part. This secondary constellation of related words fits right in with the first. Both signify an ethos in which each man is fully integrated into the intersubjective reality of the world so as to be able to protect that reality. The waer (covenant) of the wer is through the Word and Deed (wore). In the claims of the words and their embodiment in action, the wyrd is manifest as completion which seals the fate and fame of the warrior. Deeds of glory in war prove that the wer is not merely a "wosa" -- a being that merely consumes food. Wer/waer/war/warn/ wearr/wir is another constellation intimately related to wyrd/ word/ward/world. In these constellations we read an inner logic of the societal ramifications of deep temporality. Each human group is, in fact, a gestalt within the human world within the many worlds of the tree. The human group has its own experience of the wyrd which is laid down in its unique history. It shares its words that are the orlog it speaks. It protects itself as a ward projecting defensive energy. It projects its own world. Within this world are the wer. Men and women together make up MANN or the humankind. The wer must be true (waer) to the community, and must warn and go to war to protect the community. The wer are the wearr, or callused protective coating, defending the community. So amalgamated are the wer into the community that they are expressed as a sub-root or the higher world constellation wyrd/ word/ ward/ world.

Here the role of intersubjectivity in terms of the world building and the integration of the individual into that project is written in bold and unmistakable terms. The model is cosmic in terms of the orientation of the community to completion, as experienced in terms of the wyrd. It includes symbolic interaction through the word. It shows the closure of the social group and its need to maintain a protective shield. And it contains the essential characteristic of world building or the social construction of reality. The individual is totally integrated into this process as the waer wer -- true man who warns and goes to war protecting the group. In his deeds and actions he experiences the wyrd as events come to completion and either prove his work true or false. Those bound for glory experience a unity of their words and actions with the stamp of completion of destiny.*

http://archonic.net/fbpath_book_webe...t/fb12v03.htm


Our word ( like Nietzsche said "our task it to breed an animal able to keep a promise" ), with each other, is our bond, and that is of the ultimate, and of the only, value.

Later,
-Lyfing

[Psychonaut]

My lifelong pursuit of philosophy has pretty much rendered me immune to lists of ethical precepts. I suppose if I had to put a label on it, I'd say I'm a teleological relativist. I don't believe in the inherent 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of any action, nor do I believe that the same behavioral patterns are 'right' for all peoples in all times. That being said, I do find value in the, albeit somewhat amorphous, conception of Honor and attempt to behave myself in an honorable way.

[Grumpy Cat]

My lifelong pursuit of philosophy has pretty much rendered me immune to lists of ethical precepts. I suppose if I had to put a label on it, I'd say I'm a teleological relativist. I don't believe in the inherent 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of any action, nor do I believe that the same behavioral patterns are 'right' for all peoples in all times. That being said, I do find value in the, albeit somewhat amorphous, conception of Honor and attempt to behave myself in an honorable way.

I have to second that, even though I do not have a background in philosophy. I believe that things aren't always black and white (or right and wrong), there are gray areas in between.

[Ulf]

I don't like the NNV, not because of any moral issues, but for essentially the same reason Psychonaut stated.

I believe to just do good where able, stick by family and those friends worth the trouble. Give not to evil or weakness. Defend your folk.

That's about it. I prefer simplicity.

[Rachel]

Nine months later ..... I was raised with values, some of them fall ( i guess) within the context of the NNV however being on my own for the first time i have added a few things,

Heres some background into my up bringing :

1.) family comes first because they will always be there for you , you can depend on them for everything.
2.) say what you mean, mean what you say but don't be mean when you say it. ( this means speak truthfully and respectfully.)
3.) open your house and home to everyone who comes with an open mind and a loving heart.
some things i have added

actually i added this one last night while reading " Odins Children" By Padraic Colum: the story: Odin goes to Mimirs Well : his sacrifice for wisdom. After reading it , it dawned on me that sometimes some self sacrifice is good for people it make us aware that we are apart of something larger then ourselves. Such as a community.
Don't judge what you see on the surface, get to know someone and their intentions before judging and trusting.

I am very grateful for the values that i have gotten in life, they made me a better person for having values and something to hold firm to. It also made me stand out of a crowd, because i choose to live my life in what i consider a honorable manner.

[Mesrine]

Heathen Values and Morals

Sounds like bullshit to me.

[Tolleson]

Sounds like bullshit to me.

Would you care to expand on this?

[Mesrine]

Would you care to expand on this?

There's no need to, really. What I read on the previous posts was just a collection of empty slogans.

[Rachel]

There's no need to, really. What I read on the previous posts was just a collection of empty slogans.

Not empty to the people who try to live up to them.

I have morals and values that are in no way shape or form, empty. They are very much filled with the expectation that i will live daily by them in an attempt to become a better person.

people i firmly believe need morals and values, it gives us all something to strive for.

[Psychonaut]

There's no need to, really. What I read on the previous posts was just a collection of empty slogans.

Ditto what Tolleson said.

[Brynhild]

I know this remark is going to be ambivalent but I think I've given sufficient explanations in various threads about Heathenry and its values in general - plus I don't seem to be able to explain things clearly right now. Anybody else taking an active interest in this area of practise should be able to discern where I come from and what I uphold.

At the end of the day, I must follow my own heart as to what are my values are. Nobody else can tell me what they are.

[Ulfas Helgisson]

Ancient norwegians lived without moral...All great was in their blood

[Psychonaut]

Ancient norwegians lived without moral...All great was in their blood

Do you not consider the text of the Hávamál (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1vam%C3%A1l) to be ethical in nature?

[Lyfing]

Sayings for me..

9. Happy is he who hath won him
both winning ways and wisdom;
for ill led is oft who asketh help
from the wit and words of another.

26. The unwise man weens he knows all,
if from harm he is far at home;
but knows not ever what answer to make
when others ask him aught.

For when i'm drunk..

32. Many a man means no ill,
yet teases the other at table;
strife will ever start among men
when guest clashes with guest.

For when I regret getting drunk..

12. For good is not, though good is it thought,
mead for the sons of men;
the deeper he drinks the dimmer grows
the mind of many a man.

Do you want to be my friend..

42. With his friend a man should be friends ever,
and pay back gift for gift;
laughter for laughter he learn to give,
and eke lesing for lies.

43. With his friend a man should be friends ever,
with him and the friend of his friend;
but foeman's friend befriend thou never,
(and keep thee aloof from his kin).

44. If friend thou hast whom faithful thou demmest,
and wishest to win him for thee:
ope thy heart to him nor withhold thy gifts,
and fare to find him often.

45. If another there be whom ill thou trustest,
yet would'st get from him gain:
speak fair to him though false thou meanest,
and pay him lesing for lies.

46. And eke this heed: if ill thou trust one,
and hollow-hearted his speech:
thou shalt laugh with him and lure him on,
and let him have tit for tat.

47. Young was I once and went alone,
and wondering lost my way;
when a friend I found I felt me rich:
man is cheered by man.

For death..

76. Cattle die and kinsmen die,
thyself eke soon wilt die;
but fair fame will fade never.
I ween, for him who wins it.

I could very well type the whole thing up..

165. Now are Har's sayings spoken in Har's hall,
of help to the sons of men,
of harm to the sons of etin;
hail to whoever spoke them, hail to whoever knows them!
Gain they who grasp them,
happy they who heed them!

..Hollander translation.

Later,
-Lyfing

Hovamol quotes: (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3408)

..post #18 (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=32174&postcount=18)

[Octothorpe]

Whenever I get bogged down, thinking something through too much, I have a fall-back: honesty. Honesty to yourself, and to others. Cut through the BS and state the facts as they stand. Ask yourself what you really want, and if that thing is actually good for you (physically, morally, emotionally, socially, usw). Ask what others truly want, from you and for you. Then, and perhaps only then, can you make a decision that stands up to your own personal code of honor and decency.

Of course, I do have all the other intellectual baggage to haul around, but that sharp tool of honesty sure can cut away the dead brush! :thumb001:

[SuuT]

Do you not consider the text of the Hávamál (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1vam%C3%A1l) to be ethical in nature?

Is Wisdom and that which is necessary to survival intrinsically moral?

[SuuT]

I consider no one above reproach.

I only trust myself insofar as I have experienced the possibility of that which I am possible to be.

There is no one, and nothing, above death.

I am only Free insofar as I am Wise.

I am only Wise insofar as I experience.

I am only as experienced as I am travelled in this world.

I am only as travelled as I am mediatative as to that which is to come in the cycle.

I am only as travelled as the caprice of chance allows.


Chance is the greatest of foes: I make my destiny - or else destiny is fraudulent.

[nisse]

To me the biggest difference between "heathen" vs. Christian morality is that in heathen morality you are accountable to a morally innert entity (nature), which basically means you are the only one judging yourself...but at the same time nature worship has always been connected with ancestor worship...i.e. do whaveter you think your parents will approve of :D

I think those two ideas are very complementary - you are only accountable to yourself for your actions, but the "you" is (to a large extent) shaped by your parents and other ancestors though collective social history/traditions/etc., thus incorporating the ancestor worship aspect.

In summary, to me, heathen morality consists of basically doing whever will make you happiest with youself.

[njeffers]

I would say my values are a combination of ubringing and also of learned behaviors. I am at the very least American-born. The U.S. Constitution shares much in common with Anglo Saxon/English Common law. Indeed, English and German culture constitutes much of American culture.
However I do think there comes a time when what is right may not be necessarily legal. Surely most of our Ancestors in their Tribal expressions of Polytheism believed the laws of their people were once brought from the lips of the Gods and spirits themselves. In Frisia, they attributed their laws to a "god with a golden axe" or Fosite. In any event, there are often times when being a good person and a good "American" is being a good Heathen.
I believe in alot of things that Heathenry merely echoes. Integrity, Loyalty, Right Good Will, preservation of Frith, Courage, Law or Thau or Thew, Reliability and a good work ethic. I believe the core of our faith is in the Domestic area so Frith is important to me. We are our deeds, and we have no name until that name is earned.

[Psychonaut]

Is Wisdom and that which is necessary to survival intrinsically moral?

Not intrinsically, but I'd say that it becomes moral or ethical within a societal context.

[Aemma]

I consider no one above reproach.

I only trust myself insofar as I have experienced the possibility of that which I am possible to be.

There is no one, and nothing, above death.

I am only Free insofar as I am Wise.

I am only Wise insofar as I experience.

I am only as experienced as I am travelled in this world.

I am only as travelled as I am mediatative as to that which is to come in the cycle.

I am only as travelled as the caprice of chance allows.


Chance is the greatest of foes: I make my destiny - or else destiny is fraudulent.

I like the above very much SuuTie. :thumb001:

I am assuming here by the sentence that I have highlighted that you mean travelling in either and/or both the inner world (inner spaces, ie. the psyche) as well as (the) outer world(s) (what we would refer to more traditionally as global travel if you will) and quite possibly other worlds (ie. as found in the multiverse)?

[Liffrea]

I find Havamal and the NNV worthy studies and I find much within Stoic authors such as Seneca, Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus.

However the one underlying principle I hold by is honour both external and internal. Never be afraid to tell your worst enemy your greatest secret, if an action would shame you if others knew then it’s dishonourable. The only real moral “authority” is your own conscience, no one else.

[Rachel]

I have morals and values that are in no way shape or form, empty. They are very much filled with the expectation that i will live daily by them in an attempt to become a better person.

people i firmly believe need morals and values, it gives us all something to strive for.


It's interesting how much more my morals and ethics and values have been changed in the six months since i posted this.

In doing some self reflection and study i have come to really feel comfortable with the folkish view held by some heathen groups. not only do they hold on to the NNV but they also really hold true to the ancestors and give alot of weight to the practice of keeping the ancestors alive. This i also feel helps me ethically, now that i am more awear of my ancestors i think before i act and ask myself " am i making my ancestors happy?" in becoming more awear of my heathen roots i feel like i have an actual role within the heathen community that i did not get when i did not have a set of values that were commonly held amoungst the other communities that i used to belong to. The morals found within the heathen community, really help me to stay grounded when life throws a tough moral or ethical question my way.

just some basic self reflection. Thanks for the deep thought provoking discussion.

[SuuT]

I like the above very much SuuTie. :thumb001:

I am assuming here by the sentence that I have highlighted that you mean travelling in either and/or both the inner world (inner spaces, ie. the psyche) as well as (the) outer world(s) (what we would refer to more traditionally as global travel if you will) and quite possibly other worlds (ie. as found in the multiverse)?

..I was at first hesitant to respond, as I worry of emulation of which I am not worthy...and then I realised the group here:thumbs:.

After a time, there seems no mutual exclusivity of Worlds. I ride the serpent. - I am at a point in which I am able to morph in-and-out of 'Traditional' bifurcations of things as a Wanderer, a Traveller. Whilst I have united (in a sense) all of my Selves that represent my Being, this should not be confused - by myself, or any of those that view me as an example - as a means to justify a wanton disregard for one's own inclinations: I have much yet to do to leave such a mark.

I am inherently prepared for this Miðgarðr - born as such. But, like many of you, there is no shortage of gates and doors in the way out. And while we (the collective us) are not bound by prosricptive declarations, there is that thing; that something we know not what that binds us to Moral thinking...Perhaps this is the nature of Human...

...but perhaps it is also what keeps us from surpassing that designation, and category...?

[njeffers]

To me the biggest difference between "heathen" vs. Christian morality is that in heathen morality you are accountable to a morally innert entity (nature), which basically means you are the only one judging yourself...but at the same time nature worship has always been connected with ancestor worship...i.e. do whaveter you think your parents will approve of :D

I would say it is still this way. I am Deitsch... The Deitsch is my tribe. I am connected to Allemanni

[Hrimskegg]

Heh. "What would Odin do?" It's a favorite of mine.