@ Christians

[poiuytrewq0987]

What is your stance on usury? In the bible (or where else) says that Christians shouldn't do usury. Meaning I could sue someone for forcing me to pay back a loan with interest because usury is not allowed in Christianity, and thus if they give me no other option then it can be considered discrimination. I believe in Islamic banking, there is no interest on loans. Why this shouldn't be the same for us? It's pretty outrageous that we have to pay more than what we borrowed... it's like allowing ourselves to be robbed by banking conglomerates. Not to mention the ridiculous robbing scheme that they have going on right now called "overdraft fees".

[Beorn]

Unfortunately Christians do not run the banks. A certain other religious grouping do. ;)

All religious aspects aside (as personally I don't believe money and religion should be mixed), the system of monetary loans with a percentage of interest is acceptable.

[Daos]

D3IpkOZjyVw

[Cato]

My (non-Christian) opinion. Well, sort of.

"And what do you think of usury?"
"And what do you think of murder?"
- Cato the Elder, as quoth in Columella's De Re Rustica.

[W. R.]

In XVIII the Uniate church (the most popular Church at that time in Belarus) regarded as a usurer anyone who took more than 7% of the lent amount of money, because reportedly if money weren’t lent then it would be possible to earn up to 7% from the sum through trade. So the percentage up to 7% was seen as a righteous compensation rather than an attempt to make money from usury.

It sounds reasonable. According to the Uniate church the vast majority of banks in Belarus must be damned. :biggrin:

[Bari]

What is your stance on usury? In the bible (or where else) says that Christians shouldn't do usury. Meaning I could sue someone for forcing me to pay back a loan with interest because usury is not allowed in Christianity, and thus if they give me no other option then it can be considered discrimination. I believe in Islamic banking, there is no interest on loans. Why this shouldn't be the same for us? It's pretty outrageous that we have to pay more than what we borrowed... it's like allowing ourselves to be robbed by banking conglomerates. Not to mention the ridiculous robbing scheme that they have going on right now called "overdraft fees".

- Ofcourse its immoral, but religion has been put in the backseat for people to live out their matherialistic dreams and lifestyles. How such a bank would survive would be completely dependant on government funding/ownership, and i don't see that happening really. So what choise do people have unless they want to break with norms and expectations of modern day society? The lifestyle today has been made dependant on people living indebted, and its in people with higher positions/salary interest to continiue so. And this goes hand in hand with people becoming more and more helpless, thus depending on matherial support.

[Monolith]

Banksters are devils.

[Cato]

It's rather like, say, being charged a fee at an ATM to access your own funds. That's the first thing that came to my mind, actually.

[Anthropos]

I haven't analyzed this question so closely, but I came across that locus in the old testament where it says that usury is bad. It also says that every fifty years loans should be written off. In the new testament it says that the disciples of Jesus Christ should not be indebted to anyone, in other words that they should not take loans etc in the first place. If I will have children, that's what I will raise them by.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

I believe in Islamic banking, there is no interest on loans. Why this shouldn't be the same for us? It's pretty outrageous that we have to pay more than what we borrowed... it's like allowing ourselves to be robbed by banking conglomerates. Not to mention the ridiculous robbing scheme that they have going on right now called "overdraft fees".

Islam permits increase in capital through trade and, at the same time, it blocks the way for anyone who tries to increase his capital through lending on interest (riba) - whether it is at a low or a high rate.
The end result is the same

Internationally, we are seeing the concepts of "Islamic banking" gaining popularity. This is primarily driven through a greater interest by Muslim demographics in purchasing financial products that are purportedly "interest free". However, any banker worth his salt will be able to explain to you that product development is now sophisticated enough to create a wrapper around the basic non-Shari'a compliant product, packaging the cash flows so that for the consumer the product is virtually interest free, but essentially nothing changes other than the packaging - the consumer still pays the equivalent of interest - its just called something else.

[Monolith]

Banksters are devils.
ONtopic, I personally believe that loan interest can be considered immoral only if certain prerequisites are met. Like goods and services have their price, so does the money. You can't except total strangers to lend you money if you don't reimburse them with a little extra. However, these complete strangers can easily grow so powerful that they are in position to enforce interest slavery.

"A private central bank issuing the public currency is a greater menace to the liberties of the people than a standing army... We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt." - Thomas Jefferson

That is why I would advocate the use of credit unions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_union). If managed properly, they can enable hard-working and capable people to make the best of their skills, so that they can have a decent living.

Interesting historical facts:

Presented in Public Debate in Wagner Hall, Munich,
11 April 1921

The German Federation for the Abolition of Interest Slavery, hereinafter called “The Federation,” demands the following:

1) We demand the nationwide discontinuation of interest payments, which is nothing more than robbery of the nation on behalf of global finance.

2) Specifically we demand revocation of the privilege given a certain private corporation, namely the Reichsbank, to print money anywhere in the country.
This revocation should be accomplished through the nationalization of the Reichsbank.

(3) We demand nationalization of all those banks that no longer perform their valid socioeconomic task of facilitating the circulation, movement and transfer of money.
Those banks have ruthlessly taken command of our economic life. They are extorting tribute from the productive sector of our economy in the form of ever-increasing interest.

4) We demand adequate compensation for the devaluation of savings on behalf of small pensioners.The devaluation that resulted from the government’s finance and tax policies has ruined everyone.

5) We demand specifically that the economic independence and future of Bavaria not be jeopardized by the assignment of our priceless natural resource, waterpower, to private finance capital.

6) We demand that the State undertake the development of water resources by utilizing our own labor resources.The State should create the necessary monetary instruments through its own financial authority.These instruments will be covered by income from the power plants that are built.

{Page 111}

7) We demand that the State use its national assets and taxing power for productive undertakings, not to provide necessary collateral for borrowing money.

8) We demand restrictions on the raising of capital by corporations.Joint stock corporations should use their profits to increase their productive capacity and nothing else.They should not be allowed to pay unprecedented dividends while at the same time assuming unprecedented debt.These massive amounts of new (borrowed) money represent more debt, demanding additional interest that can only lead to increased inflation

The Federation rejects the imputation that its demands are “utopian” and “designed to spread unrest among the people.”

The recovery of our national economy can be achieved only by discontinuing national debt service, is vitally important for everyone.
Therefore, it is not “utopian.”

Whatever public unrest exists is created by the opponents of economic recovery and by no one else.

It is true that individual selfish interests will harmed here and there, but discontinuation of interest payments is a necessary act that can no more be avoided than can a life-saving operation be avoided on account of the associated discomfort.

The Federation insists that the national economic crisis demands a solution!

The havoc wreaked by our financial policies is affecting the entire nation!

These failed policies aggravate all our social problems.

At present, our government cannot satisy the private need for credit.

An effective program would entail a complete abolition of interest, for which there is historical precedent.

At present, interest rates are left to the unrestricted demand of the lenders.

{Page 112}

A solution to the present crisis can be found only by requiring the lender to share risk as well as profit.The lender should not receive a blanket guarantee on investment plus other ever-increasing charges plus the constant unearned growth of wealth through fixed interest.

The Federation proposes the liberation of all Western nations from their stupendous indebtedness.The abolition of interest slavery is the necessary prerequisite for the solution of ever country’s crisis, not just Germany’s crisis.We have proposed a plan to end the titanic struggle now raging between Labor and Capital in favor of the freedom to work and produce.Our plan shows how to accomplish this without undermining the acquisition of wealth through individual effort, industriousness and intellectual achievement.

Only by abolishing interest slavery can Germany achieve reconciliation in a nation torn by class conflict.
It can be achieved only by putting an end to the unearned income that is derived from the possession of money.
Our greatest social task is the abolition of interest slavery.
This responsibility to abolish interest slavery towers above all other issues of the day.
It is the only solution to the greatest problem of our time.

The abolition of interest slavery will deliver us from global Capitalist domination.
It will accomplish this while avoiding both Communist destruction of the human spirit and Capitalist degradation of labor.
The abolition of interest slavery opens the way to a truly social economy, by liberating us from the overwhelming domination of money.
It opens the way to a state based on creative work and
genuine accomplishment


I haven't analyzed this question so closely, but I came across that locus in the old testament where it says that usury is bad. It also says that every fifty years loans should be written off. In the new testament it says that the disciples of Jesus Christ should not be indebted to anyone, in other words that they should not take loans etc in the first place. If I will have children, that's what I will raise them by.
Very interesting. Could you provide some quote to support that? :) I must admit I'm quite ignorant on this matter.