Neolithic ancestry in Europe (MDLP K23b)

[Thrax]

Averages for neolithic ancestry (Early European Farmers + Caucasus + Near East + North Africa) for different european countries
The averages were calculated from people I'm related to in Gedmatch.

Sicily: 80%
Crete: 80%

South Italy: 75%
Kosovo: 75%

Greece (mainland): 70%
Albania: 70%
Spain: 70%
Portugal: 70%

North Italy: 65%

Bulgaria: 60%
Romania: 60%
France: 60%

Serbia: 55%
Germany (south): 55%

Britain: 50%
Czech Republic: 50%
Netherlands: 50%
Ireland: 50%
Belgium: 50%
Germany (north): 50%

Norway: 45%
Sweden: 45%

Poland: 40%
Ukraine: 40%
Belarus: 40%

Russia: 35%

Finland: 30%


I would like to have results from Austria, Switzerland, Hungary Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia.

[Thrax]

I also wonder what the percentage in Basque country is

[Not a Cop]

I also wonder what the percentage in Basque country is

Interestingly i score 35% despite German ancestry, what were your Russian samples?

[Thrax]

Interestingly i score 35% despite German ancestry, what were your Russian samples?

8 matches from Gedmatch (I share with some of them in 23andme as well). They all scored very similar results.

[firemonkey]

European_Early_Farmers 26.98
Caucasian 19.41
North_African 1.84
Near_East 0.42

48.65 (English,Scottish and Irish known ancestry)

[Linebacker]

I find it hard to believe we have a whole 60% considering a good portion of us here look and are built like M103 tanks.

[Ibericus]

That's a wrong calculation, since EEF themselves are about 50% Hunter-Gatherer.
Better use the Dodecad K7b, or the Eurogenes Hunter vs Farmer. The K7b Atlantic-Baltic correlates pretty well, since Motala12 (a mesolithic hunter) scores 98% Atlantic-Baltic.

[Black Wolf]

I find it hard to believe we have a whole 60% considering a good portion of us here look and are built like M103 tanks.

It is not hard to believe at all really. Pretty much all Southern Europeans including many Balkanites are of majority Neolithic ancestry.

[Black Wolf]

That's a wrong calculation, since EEF themselves are about 50% Hunter-Gatherer.
Better use the Dodecad K7b, or the Eurogenes Hunter vs Farmer. The K7b Atlantic-Baltic correlates pretty well, since Motala12 (a mesolithic hunter) scores 98% Atlantic-Baltic.

EEF's 50% hunter-gatherer? No one knows yet exactly how much WHG type ancestry is part of the EEF component. Plus the WHG type ancestry that is part of the EEF component may have been part of it for a very long time.

[Ibericus]

EEF's 50% hunter-gatherer? No one knows yet exactly how much WHG type ancestry is part of the EEF component.
In the Lazaridis study they say it's uknown, but we have advanced since then. For example now we have the ancient dna on Gedmatch, and the Hunter-Gather type of components (for example, for Dodecad K7b Atlanti-Baltic the purest mesolithics samples like Motala12 scores 98% or hungarian KO1 sccres 99.6%), while the EEF samples like Stuttgart, or the hungarian farmers (NE7, NE5, etc) score areound 50% of it.

Also on the PCA plot we can see that they are halfway between the Near-East and the Hunter-Gatherers :

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/V36So5uP2VECqSNuFGSQ_WTbX_htCe77Qv_Hf-Tq3yUwhwhrEQednv5XdU10qLnk5qf38o2-tZQ=w1886-h827


Also Polako did a pretty good PCA plot of WEF vs NEF vs ENF, and you can see Sardinians right halfway on the line from WEF to NEF (pure near-east Farmers) :

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQT2VkZVFLSVY1ejg/edit

[Thrax]

But MDLP K23 calculates WHG as well.

[Thrax]

Also LBK and the neolithic hungarian samples don't score WHG.

[Ibericus]

But MDLP K23 calculates WHG as well.
Yes, but the MLDP K23 has a EEF component itself, which means it is hiding their hunter-gatherer ancestry in this component. In my opinion it's wrong, since EEF is a mix of HG and near-east farmer. While the Dodecad K7b is much better separated, the ¡Southern¡ component is more of a pure neolithic component as it peaks in the Near-East, and thus separated better what is truley Hunter-Gatherer and what is original Farmer.

[Sikeliot]

Which regions in Sicily are the Sicilians from? I suspect some of them from Messina and whereabouts, since they score "Cretan" as their first match often, whereas there are higher foreign elements (like the North African and SW Asian) in the west of the island. I'd be curious to see the Cretan and Sicilian results individually if you had time.

[Thrax]

I don't know the exact regions, but the cretan result is like 40% Caucasus, 21% EEF, 13% Near East, 6.3% WHG, 4.7% North African, 8.5% South Central Asian

[Ibericus]

Also LBK and the neolithic hungarian samples don't score WHG.
Im telling you, they have their own EEF component. Imagine if we had a "greek" component, greeks could score 70-80% of it, and score low on other components, but it's deceptive, as this "greek" component would be ihiding the true origins. Same thing with the EEF component.

[Black Wolf]

In the Lazaridis study they say it's uknown, but we have advanced since then. For example now we have the ancient dna on Gedmatch, and the Hunter-Gather type of components (for example, for Dodecad K7b Atlanti-Baltic the purest mesolithics samples like Motala12 scores 98% or hungarian KO1 sccres 99.6%), while the EEF samples like Stuttgart, or the hungarian farmers (NE7, NE5, etc) score areound 50% of it.

Also on the PCA plot we can see that they are halfway between the Near-East and the Hunter-Gatherers :

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/V36So5uP2VECqSNuFGSQ_WTbX_htCe77Qv_Hf-Tq3yUwhwhrEQednv5XdU10qLnk5qf38o2-tZQ=w1886-h827


Also Polako did a pretty good PCA plot of WEF vs NEF vs ENF, and you can see Sardinians right halfway on the line from WEF to NEF (pure near-east Farmers) :

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQT2VkZVFLSVY1ejg/edit

Yes that is all quite interesting. I find the Eurogenes calculators at GEDmatch to be the mos informative as they do not suffer from the ''calculator effect''. The thing is though is that some of the WHG-UHG component type ancestry seen in modern day Europeans may have actually been part of the early farming groups that spread into Europe from Anatolia or the Near East. Now it is true that most of the WHG-UHG type ancestry seen in modern day Europeans probably descends mainly from Mesolithic hunter-gatherers there is the possibility that some of it came in along with Near Eastern type ancestry with the earliest farmers. We need ancient DNA from the Near East to know any of this for sure.

[Sikeliot]

I don't know the exact regions, but the cretan result is like 40% Caucasus, 21% EEF, 13% Near East, 6.3% WHG, 4.7% North African, 8.5% South Central Asian

I'd be curious to see some of the Sicilian results. I suspect they'd be similar to the Cretan, but Near East might be higher and Caucasus lower.

[Thrax]

I see what you mean.
But I still think it's not wrong to calculate the neolithic ancestry this way, at least we can compare between different countries, even if the percentages are not 100% correct.

[Longbowman]

76.3%.

[Thrax]

I'd be curious to see some of the Sicilian results. I suspect they'd be similar to the Cretan, but Near East might be higher and Caucasus lower.

On average the sicilians are around 36% Caucasus, 12% Near East, 23% EEF, 8.5% North African, 9.5% WHG

[Thrax]

For the record I score 71.17%

[Sikeliot]

On average the sicilians are around 36% Caucasus, 12% Near East, 23% EEF, 8.5% North African, 9.5% WHG

Fairly close.

I will do a Greek islands average for you right now, excluding Crete.

[Thrax]

Fairly close.

I will do a Greek islands average for you right now, excluding Crete.

I believe they will score around 75%

[Sikeliot]

I believe they will score around 75%

I'll throw a Calabrese result in also. I think what we see is that Sicily/Crete/Dodecanese are close, then Aegean islands will be like mainland southern Italy, between Crete/Sicily and mainland Greece. Except Calabria which seems to be like Sicily.

As we see, North Aegean and Ionian tend to go the direction of the mainland, whereas Dodecanese tends to go in the direction of Sicily.


Chios-

Caucasus: 37.52
EEF: 16.65
Near East: 11.57
North African: 3.48
Total: 69.22

Chios-

Caucasus: 36.67
EEF: 19.90
Near East: 9.44
North African: 2.64
Total: 68.65

Kalymnos-

Caucasus: 40.8
EEF: 19.30
Near East: 14.48
North African: 7.04
Total: 81.62


Lefkada-

Caucasus: 34.85
EEF: 22.20
Near East: 10.55
North African: 5.34
Total: 72.94


Greek Islands Average: 73.10



And just for control, four Sicilians (two east, two west), a Calabrese, a Campanian, and an Abruzzese:

1: Catania

Caucasus: 37.02
EEF: 22.37
Near East: 10.39
North African: 9.95
Total: 79.73


2: Messina

Caucasus: 39.43
EEF: 22.36
Near East: 9.75
North African: 7.59
Total: 79.13


3: Palermo

Caucasus: 36.26
EEF: 23.09
Near East: 11.85
North African: 9.10
Total: 80.3


4: Palermo

Caucasus: 37.80
EEF: 22.85
Near East: 11.36
North African: 8.06
Total: 80.07


Calabria-

Caucasus: 37.72
EEF: 21.87
Near East: 12.32
North African: 6.07
Total: 77.98


Campania-

Caucasus: 35.71
EEF: 26.43
Near East: 7.84
North African: 3.53
Total: 73.51


Abruzzo-

Caucasus: 36.54
EEF: 26.38
Near East: 10.51
North African: 6.22
Total: 79.65

[Longbowman]

Thrax's approach sits right with me, anyhow. I usually get South Italian.

[Jackson]

It's interesting that in Eurogenes K15 the only component overlap between the Neolithic individuals and the Mesolithic ones is the Atlantic component, while if the Neolithic individuals were admixed to a great extent they should have more of the North Sea, Baltic (in particular) and East Euro components, while i think only a couple of those have that, and in very small amounts. It's also visible in the correlation that certain components have with each other in the K15 data set, West Med has quite a significant correlation with the Atlantic component when compared with the other ones, which makes sense as this is a relationship apparent in the Neolithic individuals which make up a segment of European ancestry. I guess that the Atlantic component is primarily reflecting a commonality between the two groups that isn't necessarily because one has recently mixed with the other?

West Med has a 0.6 correlation (1 is the highest, it shares with itself ofc) with Atlantic, 0.18 with North Sea, basically 0 with Baltic and a negative correlation of -0.2 with Eastern Euro. Makes sense, whereas Atlantic has a strong correlation with North Sea 0.8, but a greater correlation (0.6) with West Med than it does with the other Mesolithic components Baltic (0.5) and Eastern Euro (0.2). Baltic seems to be the most uniquely northern European component (along with Eastern Euro) as it is basically neutral with West Med, but has higher values with North Sea, East Euro (about the same 0.6-0.7) and slightly less with Atlantic (0.5).

I think David has talked about this already but i was playing around with statistics software on excel lol.

[Longbowman]

I wonder what South Central Asian represents on K23b.

[Thrax]

I wonder what South Central Asian represents on K23b.

I think it's "indo-european"

[Longbowman]

I think it's "indo-european"

I was thinking that. What're the population averages?

[Thrax]

I was thinking that. What're the population averages?

It's not very steady. There's a big variation among people who come from the same countries. It can be as low as 1.75% in one greek, as high as 6.5% in another. It's absent from eastern Europeans and about 5-7% in Scandinavia.

[Thrax]

If you mean Gedrosia, it's around 4% in greece (but in some areas it goes up to 6% according to the dodecad blogspot-perhaps the mainland-island divide), around 5-7% in northern and central europe (germany 5%, scandinavia 7%) but it peaks in britain with almost 10%.

I think it correlates with Gedrosia, yes.

[Sikeliot]

I updated my other post with islanders, and some southern Italians just for reference.

What is interesting is, island Greeks EXCEPT Crete and Dodecanese seem closer to the mainland.

[Longbowman]

I think it correlates with Gedrosia, yes.

I get like 7.02% SCE on K23b. On K12b, 5.79%.

[Thrax]

I get 5.33% South Central Asian in K23b and 6.2% Gedrosia in Dodecad K12b

[Thrax]

I think the greek samples that got high gedrosia were also from west macedonia. (one dude from Kozani, that much I remember)

Hah.

My sample with the highest Gedrosia comes from Ptolemaida, pretty close to Kozani.

[Longbowman]

I get 5.33% South Central Asian in K23b and 6.2% Gedrosia in Dodecad K12b

Aryan not stronk.

[Longbowman]

I get 5.33% South Central Asian in K23b and 6.2% Gedrosia in Dodecad K12b

Aryan not stronk.

[Vasconcelos]

Aryan not stronk.

Guess that goes for everyone

[Sikeliot]

We should call Indo-European "Gedrosia-Baltic". :lol: Gedrosia is the Indo part, Baltic the European part.

[Longbowman]

No european gets above 7% (8% when pushing it). You;ll have to be kurdish or iranian to really tap those aryan genes.

7.02% Arischer Herrenvolk reporting in.

[Vasconcelos]

Do you have any values for Iberia btw? Would be especially interesting to see the Basques' results.

[Longbowman]

8.73% here.

Bow down, peasant.

Forgive me, I did not know who I was speaking to.

Where shall we draw the cutoff line for non-Indo-Europeans? Those not of the blood?

[Dani Cutie]

Europeans farmes in Spain are the celts or they was paleolithic?

[Jackson]

Dodecad K12b Gedrosia: 11.13%
MDLP K23b South Central Asian: 6.43%
MDLP K23b Ancestral Altaic: 4.81%

Herrenvolkest? :rolleyes:

[Longbowman]

Dodecad K12b Gedrosia: 11.13%
MDLP K23b South Central Asian: 6.43%
MDLP K23b Ancestral Altaic: 4.81%

Herrenvolkest? :rolleyes:

I fall to my knees.

Ancestral Altaic, though? Is that relevant?

[Thrax]

Do you have any values for Iberia btw? Would be especially interesting to see the Basques' results.

I would also like to see Basque results. From Iberia I have two galicians, an andalusian and two portuguese.

[Thrax]

I fall to my knees.

Ancestral Altaic, though? Is that relevant?

The Ancestral Altaic is absent from the mesolithic and neolithic samples, so I think it also correlates with the Indo-Europeans.

[Longbowman]

The Ancestral Altaic is absent from the mesolithic and neolithic samples, so I think it also correlates with the Indo-Europeans.

Then I pledge allegiance to His Aryanness Jackson and hope he accepts me as a footsoldier.

[Dani Cutie]

I would also like to see Basque results. From Iberia I have two galicians, an andalusian and two portuguese.

Is Made with bones or ADN?

[Longbowman]

Is Made with bones or ADN?

DNA :)

[firemonkey]

South_Central_Asian 7.21- K23b
Gedrosian 9.84- Dodecad 12b

[Jackson]

I fall to my knees.

Ancestral Altaic, though? Is that relevant?

I just thought it was interesting as it seems to relate to Central/East-Central Asia. I would have thought it was related to ANE in Europe perhaps.

IR1, the Iron Age likely/possible-Cimmerian (Indo-Europeans from north of the Black Sea/Sea of Azov) from Hungary scores 11.70% Ancestral Altaic and 7.64% South-Central Asian, while BR2, a bronze-age individual in the same area scores negligible amounts of either, and CO1 scores none of either.

Interesting how it (Gedrosia that is, i don't know the population details of K23b) reaches a local peak in Britain of all places. Unless this was in NW Europe prior to these periods (seems unlikely, not in Motala12 or Loschbour), something must have changed in the Iron Age.

Hinxton 2 (Early Medieval):
Ancestral_Altaic 4.98%
South_Central_Asian 6.62%

Hinxton 3 (Early Medieval):
Ancestral_Altaic 3.45%
South_Central_Asian 8.92%

Hinxton 4 (Late Iron Age):
Ancestral_Altaic 8.50%
South_Central_Asian 6.92%

Hinxton 5 (Early Medieval):
Ancestral_Altaic 4.65%
South_Central_Asian 2.49%

[Jackson]

Then I pledge allegiance to His Aryanness Jackson and hope he accepts me as a footsoldier.

It's ok, the Indo-Europeans already took over the continent - we're late to the conquest, no footsoldiers required. :P

[Jackson]

British gets around 10%, the highest in europe.

Truly, Hitler bombed the wrong Aryans.

He bombed the wrong everyone lol, although indeed most of them were Aryans.

[Thrax]

I just thought it was interesting as it seems to relate to Central/East-Central Asia. I would have thought it was related to ANE in Europe perhaps.

IR1, the Iron Age likely/possible-Cimmerian (Indo-Europeans from north of the Black Sea/Sea of Azov) from Hungary scores 11.70% Ancestral Altaic and 7.64% South-Central Asian, while BR2, a bronze-age individual in the same area scores negligible amounts of either, and CO1 scores none of either.

Interesting how it reaches a local peak in Britain of all places. Unless this was in NW Europe prior to these periods (seems unlikely, not in Motala12 or Loschbour), something must have changed in the Iron Age.

Hinxton 2 (Early Medieval):
Ancestral_Altaic 4.98%
South_Central_Asian 6.62%

Hinxton 3 (Early Medieval):
Ancestral_Altaic 3.45%
South_Central_Asian 8.92%

Hinxton 4 (Late Iron Age):
Ancestral_Altaic 8.50%
South_Central_Asian 6.92%

Hinxton 5 (Early Medieval):
Ancestral_Altaic 4.65%
South_Central_Asian 2.49%

Maybe it was the Celts?

[Jackson]

Maybe it was the Celts?

It would certainly make sense, however does anyone know how the Basques score for Gedrosia and also for South-Central Asian and Ancestral Altaic - as i thought they had quite high Gedrosia too? Perhaps it is something that is not related directly to Indo-Europeans/Celts if they came earlier, but is something later. Either that or the Basques received a lot of this DNA, but simply kept their language and drifted through reduced admixture over the millenia?

[Dani Cutie]

DNA :)

Sorry :P

[Jackson]

I fall to my knees.

Ancestral Altaic, though? Is that relevant?

Oh wait we have a winner xD, my mother gets even more of both:

Ancestral_Altaic 5.69%
South_Central_Asian 7.10%

[Faklon]

What about Sardinians and Cypriots?

[Thrax]

What about Sardinians and Cypriots?

I had no samples. But I expect Sardinians to score more than 80%.

[Shepherd]

http://i.imgur.com/geqb66R.png

[Shepherd]

this is also sorta related

http://i.imgur.com/AvvJv0d.png

[Grace O'Malley]

Mine
Dodecad K12b Gedrosia 10.16%
K23b South Central Asian 7.59%
K23b Ancestral Altaic 4.02%

Brother
Dodecad K12b Gedrosia 11.41%
K23b South Central Asian 7.29%
K23b Ancestral Altaic 5.26%

Mother
Dodecad K12b Gedrosia 10.56%
K23b South Central Asian 8.95%
K23b Ancestral Altaic 3.95%

[Thrax]

Mine
Dodecad K12b Gedrosia 10.16%
K23b South Central Asian 7.59%
K23b Ancestral Altaic 4.02%

Brother
Dodecad K12b Gedrosia 11.41%
K23b South Central Asian 7.29%
K23b Ancestral Altaic 5.26%

Mother
Dodecad K12b Gedrosia 10.56%
K23b South Central Asian 8.95%
K23b Ancestral Altaic 3.95%

What about your neolithic? (EEF, Caucasus, Near East, North African)?

[Grace O'Malley]

K23b

Mine

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 37.33
2 European_Early_Farmers 27.46
3 Caucasian 20.92
4 South_Central_Asian 7.59
5 Ancestral_Altaic 4.02
6 South_Indian 1.16
7 Amerindian 0.53
8 Near_East 0.46
9 North_African 0.36
10 Subsaharian 0.1
11 Archaic_African 0.06

Brother
# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 37.62
2 European_Early_Farmers 26.6
3 Caucasian 21.61
4 South_Central_Asian 7.29
5 Ancestral_Altaic 5.26
6 South_Indian 0.65
7 Amerindian 0.49
8 North_African 0.49

Mother

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 36.72
2 European_Early_Farmers 27.42
3 Caucasian 21.34
4 South_Central_Asian 8.95
5 Ancestral_Altaic 3.95
6 Amerindian 0.93
7 North_African 0.37
8 South_Indian 0.33

[Thrax]

K23b

Mine

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 37.33
2 European_Early_Farmers 27.46
3 Caucasian 20.92
4 South_Central_Asian 7.59
5 Ancestral_Altaic 4.02
6 South_Indian 1.16
7 Amerindian 0.53
8 Near_East 0.46
9 North_African 0.36
10 Subsaharian 0.1
11 Archaic_African 0.06

Brother
# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 37.62
2 European_Early_Farmers 26.6
3 Caucasian 21.61
4 South_Central_Asian 7.29
5 Ancestral_Altaic 5.26
6 South_Indian 0.65
7 Amerindian 0.49
8 North_African 0.49

Mother

# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 36.72
2 European_Early_Farmers 27.42
3 Caucasian 21.34
4 South_Central_Asian 8.95
5 Ancestral_Altaic 3.95
6 Amerindian 0.93
7 North_African 0.37
8 South_Indian 0.33

So you all score an average of around 49% neolithic, consistent with the 50% average for Ireland I have.

[noricum]

I would like to have results from Austria...

My result is: 49.16
Caucasian 25.51
European_Early_Farmers 19.69
Near_East 2.68
North_African 1.28

[Catkin]

My family's fairly close to your averages for Britain and Ireland, though my dad's a bit lower. The total scores people are getting are to me surprisingly consistent within ancestral nationalities.

Me
European_Early_Farmers 24.48
Caucasian 24.43
Near_East 0.77
North African 0.00
Total: 49.68

Mum
European_Early_Farmers 26.97
Caucasian 21.93
Near_East 0.96
North African 0.00
Total: 49.86

Dad
European_Early_Farmers 24.62
Caucasian 23.23
Near_East 0.00
North African 0.00
Total: 47.85

Maternal Uncle
European_Early_Farmers 26.84
Caucasian 21.37
Near_East 1.53
North African 0.06
Total: 49.80

[Thrax]

My result is: 49.16
Caucasian 25.51
European_Early_Farmers 19.69
Near_East 2.68
North_African 1.28

Danke!

[Graham]

49% Graham
50% Mum
51% Dad

K23b MDLP is generally solid as a rock. Would like to see a PCA on that. Anyone point me in the direction of national averages?

[noricum]

Danke!

Passt scho!

Just note that I generally turn out more North-Eastern than the average Austrian and thus my results might not be very representative.

[Sizzo]

That's a wrong calculation, since EEF themselves are about 50% Hunter-Gatherer.
Better use the Dodecad K7b, or the Eurogenes Hunter vs Farmer. The K7b Atlantic-Baltic correlates pretty well, since Motala12 (a mesolithic hunter) scores 98% Atlantic-Baltic.

I think you're right on EEF: I'm 36.32% with K23b, it couldn't be 100% Neolithic, for a Northern Italian. With K7b I'm Atlantic_Baltic 55.13 and Southern 29.62. Oracle: 1 North_Italian (HGDP) 1.22, 2 N_Italian (Dodecad) 1.69. The 65% posted by Thrax (for Northern Italians) is probably of the outliers of NE Italy.

[RighNick]

Anyone point me in the direction of national averages?

I think these are the averages for the latest version. Sadly, nobody's taken the time to organise the data properly.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6n7iMc2P-yQbC1QTHlBc29WWXM/edit

[Roy]

If you mean Gedrosia, it's around 4% in greece (but in some areas it goes up to 6% according to the dodecad blogspot-perhaps the mainland-island divide), around 5-7% in northern and central europe (germany 5%, scandinavia 7%) but it peaks in britain with almost 10%.

Does that mean that Brits have the most of some ancient European - Punjabi like connection? :coffee: Or is that because some Iranic - speakers arrived to Europe at some point and settled in bigger amounts?

[Stimpy]

I find it hard to believe we have a whole 60% considering a good portion of us here look and are built like M103 tanks.

That's just because you have some weird pseudscientific idea of this ''Cromagnid HG-man''.
Hunter gatherer/Neolithic adm. goes almost exactly in a straight line from North (more hunter-gather adm.) to South (more neolithic adm.).

A leptomorphic pure halstatt nordid looking Northerner will still score less neolithic adm. and more HG adm. than a pure CM looking Southerner.

[Sizzo]

I think these are the averages for the latest version. Sadly, nobody's taken the time to organise the data properly.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6n7iMc2P-yQbC1QTHlBc29WWXM/edit

According to this spreadsheet, the highest EEF value in Italy is from Bergamo (37.77) while South Italy is 21.69. EEF is clearly not 100% Neolithic.

[TheForeigner]

Too bad there is nothing for Hungary here. This should be shown to retard Stears, when he starts speaking of ''weird Middle Eastern genes and looks'' of Romanians, Balkaners and some other European populations.

[TheForeigner]

Where does this Gedrosia genetic component come from?

[Jackson]

According to this spreadsheet, the highest EEF value in Italy is from Bergamo (37.77) while South Italy is 21.69. EEF is clearly not 100% Neolithic.

It's probably due to parts of south and south-east component being overlain by a later 'Near Eastern' component, while in northern and much of western Europe more of the Near Eastern Neolithic ancestry remains?

[Grace O'Malley]

Here's a map of Gedrosia in Europe.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif

[Jackson]

Here's a map of Gedrosia in Europe.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif

Weird distribution, doesn't look Indo-European or Neolithic lol.

Atlantic facade? :D

[Grace O'Malley]

Weird distribution, doesn't look Indo-European or Neolithic lol.

Atlantic facade? :D

Does it look like it has anything to do with the spread of R1b?

[Jackson]

Does it look like it has anything to do with the spread of R1b?

Yeah looks like it.

[Thrax]

It seems that Gedrosia is associated with Celtic and Germanic peoples.

[Grace O'Malley]

Here's what Dienekes says about Gedrosia. Gedrosia appears to be Caucasus + a slice of Siberian.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pL45zaH3_dQ/UDiVKrAyM0I/AAAAAAAAFyo/fzBWGZkavFg/s640/K12b.png

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/inter-relationships-of-dodecad-k12b-and.html

Interestingly he also says that Amerindian appears wholly Siberian which my family gets quite a high amount of this in comparison to other Europeans.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Zx3rUY5DDTQ/UDiqkdADXCI/AAAAAAAAFzY/vyRE2LhP7kI/s1600/world9.png

[Sizzo]

It's probably due to parts of south and south-east component being overlain by a later 'Near Eastern' component, while in northern and much of western Europe more of the Near Eastern Neolithic ancestry remains?

North Italy is more Early Neolithic, while Central-South seems more East-oriented. But probably this Early Neolithic is partly indigeneous.

[Linebacker]

That's just because you have some weird pseudscientific idea of this ''Cromagnid HG-man''.
Hunter gatherer/Neolithic adm. goes almost exactly in a straight line from North (more hunter-gather adm.) to South (more neolithic adm.).

A leptomorphic pure halstatt nordid looking Northerner will still score less neolithic adm. and more HG adm. than a pure CM looking Southerner.

How does a pure CM looking southerner have less admixture than a gracile halstatt leptomorph?You are making 0% sense.

Looks depend on the genetic data.They are not lottery prize from a spinning wheel.If an individual looks pure CM he is one genetically,and if one looks pure leptomorph neolithic,his genes will be neolithic also.

[Jackson]

How does a pure CM looking southerner have less admixture than a gracile halstatt leptomorph?You are making 0% sense.

Looks depend on the genetic data.They are not lottery prize from a spinning wheel.If an individual looks pure CM he is one genetically,and if one looks pure leptomorph neolithic,his genes will be neolithic also.

The point he's making is that within a population you have both very robust and very gracile people. Genetically they will have a similar amount of hunter-gatherer and farmer ancestry overall, or the difference should be only very small at most. If one is primarily hunter-gatherer and the other primarily farmer then they simply cannot be part of the same population group.

[Sikeliot]

Indeed. 70% of Sicilian Y-dna diversity is dated during the bronze age, not the neolithic.


So what would this imply about the settlement? That 70% of the male lines of Sicilian y-dna were already present during the Bronze Age?

[Black Wolf]

How does a pure CM looking southerner have less admixture than a gracile halstatt leptomorph?You are making 0% sense.

Looks depend on the genetic data.They are not lottery prize from a spinning wheel.If an individual looks pure CM he is one genetically,and if one looks pure leptomorph neolithic,his genes will be neolithic also.

The so called ''CM'' looking Southern Europeans are in fact mostly Neolithic genetically.

[Black Wolf]

So what would this imply about the settlement? That 70% of the male lines of Sicilian y-dna were already present during the Bronze Age?

It implies that most of the paternal lineages present among Sicilians today did not arrive there until the Bronze Age or even later.

[Sikeliot]

It implies that most of the paternal lineages present among Sicilians today did not arrive there until the Bronze Age or even later.

So that means that population movements from the Italic peninsula, Greece, and Anatolia/Levant probably brought most of the paternal lineages within the last 3000 years.

[Black Wolf]

So that means that population movements from the Italic peninsula, Greece, and Anatolia/Levant probably brought most of the paternal lineages within the last 3000 years.

Correct.

[Stimpy]

How does a pure CM looking southerner have less admixture than a gracile halstatt leptomorph?You are making 0% sense.

Looks depend on the genetic data.They are not lottery prize from a spinning wheel.If an individual looks pure CM he is one genetically,and if one looks pure leptomorph neolithic,his genes will be neolithic also.

All data speaks against you. Taxonomy/Carleton Coon/whatever isn't an exact genetic science if that's what you believe.

I've seen pictures of 3 individuals who scored very high WHG (hunter-gatherer adm.) all around 50%. From Northern Sweden and Finland. - One of them looked almost pure nordid + minor CM, the other some kind of Lappid/nordoCM mix and one looked pretty much just Baltid I think.

There doesn't exist ANY southerner no matter how robust, huge-headed and square/wide jawed who scores that much hunter-gatherer adm. probably not even half. Whereas on the other hand there probably doesn't exist any genuine far northerner. no matter how gracile looking who score less than 30% WHG. In fact I dont think it correlates that much to be honest.

The only phenotype in Europe that's almost guaranteed to have a high HG admixture is probably Lappid and Tydal- but those are phenotype that only exists in the far north as well.

This relatively small-headed Sami-man probably score more HG-admixture than 99% of all Europeans alive today.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/7/4089000584_10821b1674_b.jpg

[Highlands]

Here's a map of Gedrosia in Europe.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif

Can I join the atlantic facade :D

[Vasconcelos]

So that means that population movements from the Italic peninsula, Greece, and Anatolia/Levant probably brought most of the paternal lineages within the last 3000 years.

You bloody a-rabs!


I'm kidding ofc

[Styrian Mujo]

It implies that most of the paternal lineages present among Sicilians today did not arrive there until the Bronze Age or even later.

I think the Roman empire probably contributed to the large amount of near eastern genes in Italy...IMO it's the only way to explain the large amount of near eastern ancestry. Most people on anthro forums are afraid to say it out of fear of being accused of Nordicism and don't want to deal with angry responses.

[Sikeliot]

Yes. The rest is neolithic while the maternal samples are dated before the neolithic.

I posted (or rather, Minard did in a fit of stupidity) the article sometime ago.

I would assume something similar is true for Greece also. Thus the total ancestral composition should come out close to half West Asian, half indigenous South European, with minor Indo European in there too.

[Sikeliot]

J2 would have also gotten there through Elymians, Sicanians and other groups. If it was from Greeks, why no I2 and not much R1a in Sicily?

[Casandrinos]

Can I join the atlantic facade :D

Why don't you go back to Caucasus xD

[Black Wolf]

All data speaks against you. Taxonomy/Carleton Coon/whatever isn't an exact genetic science if that's what you believe.

I've seen pictures of 3 individuals who scored very high WHG (hunter-gatherer adm.) all around 50%. From Northern Sweden and Finland. - One of them looked almost pure nordid + minor CM, the other some kind of Lappid/nordoCM mix and one looked pretty much just Baltid I think.

There doesn't exist ANY southerner no matter how robust, huge-headed and square/wide jawed who scores that much hunter-gatherer adm. probably not even half. Whereas on the other hand there probably doesn't exist any genuine far northerner. no matter how gracile looking who score less than 30% WHG. In fact I dont think it correlates that much to be honest.

The only phenotype in Europe that's almost guaranteed to have a high HG admixture is probably Lappid and Tydal- but those are phenotype that only exists in the far north as well.

This relatively small-headed Sami-man probably score more HG-admixture than 99% of all Europeans alive today.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/7/4089000584_10821b1674_b.jpg

Pretty much all correct.

[Highlands]

Why don't you go back to Caucasus xD

haha well these maps are all crap..I only score 3.5 Gedrosia

[Casandrinos]

haha well these maps are all crap..I only score 3.5 Gedrosia


You can still go back to Caucasus and increase it.

Repatriation is always an option xD

[SwampThing26]

European_Early_Farmers 30.16%
Caucasian 20.31%
Near_East 0.0
North African 0.97%
Total: 51.44%

Dodecad K12b Gedrosia 10.37%
K23b South Central Asian 6.03%
K23b Ancestral Altaic 5.78%

Does the South Asian component in K23b have any connection to the SCA or Ancestral Altaic? I score 1.67%

[gold_fenix]

Gor example Alfonso de Albuquerque (Alex Delarge) and me we have more neolithic admixture in gedmatch that other and however we have rought features, even i have a robust fisiology so perhaps those of neolithic being more slender or gracil is wrong

[Stears]

Too bad there is nothing for Hungary here. This should be shown to retard Stears, when he starts speaking of ''weird Middle Eastern genes and looks'' of Romanians, Balkaners and some other European populations. Do you like these gypsy nations with low culture and weird look?

[Anglojew]

Averages for neolithic ancestry (Early European Farmers + Caucasus + Near East + North Africa) for different european countries
The averages were calculated from people I'm related to in Gedmatch.


Caucasian 27.14%
European_Early_Farmers 26.54%
Near_East 6.52%
North_African 3.09%

Total: 63.29%

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

Caucasian 40.38
Near_East 11.30
European_Early_Farmers 9.45
North_African 1.25
= 62.38

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

Dodecad K12b Gedrosia: 11.13%
MDLP K23b South Central Asian: 6.43%
MDLP K23b Ancestral Altaic: 4.81%

Herrenvolkest? :rolleyes:

Nah
Dodecad K12b Gedrosia 17.66%
MDLP K23b South_Central_Asian 17.22
MDLP K23b Tungus-Altaic 4.01

[Anglojew]

Caucasian 40.38
Near_East 11.30
European_Early_Farmers 9.45
North_African 1.25
= 62.38

You're more Near Eastern than me. Kinda ironic.

[SSlava]

Interestingly i score 35% despite German ancestry, what were your Russian samples?

My result:
Caucasian 27.61%
European_Early_Farmers 10.44%
Near_East 1.75%
North_African -
= 39.8

[Stanislav]

European_Hunters_Gatherers 49.27%
Caucasian 27.55%
European_Early_Farmers 10.52%

=38%

Russian.

[Highlands]

I find it hard to believe we have a whole 60% considering a good portion of us here look and are built like M103 tanks.

I love how Ultra thumbed this down :lol:

he is awesome

[Linebacker]

I love how Ultra thumbed this down :lol:

he is awesome

By awesome do you mean a scrawny recessive neolithic fag?

[Sikeliot]

Here is my Sicilian cousin's results. I highlighted the ones we might call "Neolithic"

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 35.17
2 European_Early_Farmers 24.65
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 11.71
4 Near_East 11.01
5 South_Central_Asian 6.97
6 North_African 5.5
7 Tungus-Altaic 1.34
8 East_African 1.2
9 Khoisan 0.67
10 Australoid 0.59
11 Archaic_African 0.42
12 Ancestral_Altaic 0.34
13 Subsaharian 0.14
14 African_Pygmy 0.13
15 Austronesian 0.07
16 Paleo_Siberian 0.06
17 Archaic_Human 0.03

[Longbowman]

Here is my Sicilian cousin's results. I highlighted the ones we might call "Neolithic"

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 35.17
2 European_Early_Farmers 24.65
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 11.71
4 Near_East 11.01
5 South_Central_Asian 6.97
6 North_African 5.5
7 Tungus-Altaic 1.34
8 East_African 1.2
9 Khoisan 0.67
10 Australoid 0.59
11 Archaic_African 0.42
12 Ancestral_Altaic 0.34
13 Subsaharian 0.14
14 African_Pygmy 0.13
15 Austronesian 0.07
16 Paleo_Siberian 0.06
17 Archaic_Human 0.03

SCE is ANE like.

[Highlands]

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 39.63
2 European_Early_Farmers 24.54
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 21.59
4 Near_East 7.52
5 North_African 3
6 South_Central_Asian 1.92
7 South_East_Asian 0.53
8 East_Siberian 0.43
9 Arctic 0.33
10 Ancestral_Altaic 0.23
11 Melano_Polynesian 0.19
12 Subsaharian 0.07
13 Khoisan 0.02

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek_Thessaly @ 2.447499
2 Albanian_Tirana @ 2.764988
3 Greek_Thessaloniki @ 3.369174
4 Greek_Peloponnesos @ 3.973121
5 Kosovar @ 4.432136
6 Greek_Northwest @ 5.298786
7 Central_Greek @ 5.448136
8 Greek @ 7.996641
9 Greek_Macedonia @ 8.669041
10 Greek_Athens @ 8.731643

[Longbowman]

SCE isn't Neolithic.

[Highlands]

ok, 74.06

The reason Kosovo scores more than Mainland Greece is because we have more West (Atlantic) Med but similar East Med levels. Also, the sample may have been from South or South-eastern Kosovo. We are quite different to the rest of Kosovo in terms of genetics (more Italian-like). The rest of Kosovo will be around 65%.

[Voskos]

SCE isn't Neolithic.

Indeed.

[Highlands]

SCE isn't Neolithic.

Is it Indo-European?

[Longbowman]

Is it Indo-European?

Yeah it's thought that component could be.

[Altaylardan Tunaya]

SCE isn't Neolithic.

What's SCE? South Central Asian??

[Longbowman]

What's SCE? South Central Asian??

Yep, my bad.

[Mazik]

Here's the average Neolithic ancestry of three Saami individuals.

Caucasian 11.35%
European_Early_Farmers 4.6%
Near_East 0.2%
North_African 0.08%

= 16.23 %

[Mazik]

My own Neolithic score with this calc:

Caucasian: 21.61%
EEF: 18.33%
Near_East -
North_African -

=39.94%

[Jana]

...