Rozafa legend

[altin]

Near the city of Shkodra there is a castle named Rozafa's castle. There is a legend about its creation. Both the castle and the legend are pre-Christian. It goes like this:

The castle was built by 3 brothers. But the walls they built during the day fell during the night. One day, as they were sitting desperate about the walls that wouldn't stand, an old man passes by. After greeting, the old man asked why they were upset and the brothers told the thing about castle's walls.
The old man said he new the solution but it would be a painful one and the brother wouldn't want to apply it. The brothers said they had to build the castle at any cost and begged the old man to tell the solution.
- Very well - said the old man - The castle needs a sacrifice. The wife that will bring the food next day should be buried in the walls of the castle.
Brothers promised to not tell their wives and let the chance decide who's wife would be, but the older brothers explained the situation their wives that night at home.
The next day the mother asked one by one the wives of older brothers to send the food but they found some justification to not go. Then she asked the wife of the youngest brother, Rozafa.
She said - I'll go, but I have a little son in breast that I need to feed.
The sisters in law volunteered to feed him.

The brothers were anxiously waiting who'd bring the food. It was Rozafa. Unlike other days the brothers weren't touching the food. They were staying silent and upset. She asked - why you my husband and my brothers are upset and don't eat the food? - The brothers told the thing with castle's walls and what the old man had proposed as solution.
Rozafa basically said - If my life needs to end for castle's life to begin, then so be it. But I have a little son in breast, so leave me outside one breast to feed him, leave me outside one hand to caress him and leave me outside one leg to rock his cradle when he cries.

...
It is a legend about keeping the word. What you notice in this legend (as in all Albanian legends) is that there is no punishing God for not doing so. Nothing bad happens to older brothers and their wives. There is nor rewarding God either. Nothing earns the young brother, he just looses his wife.
These details are very important to understand the moral of the story.

Can you tell why the legend was created this way?

[Kalimtari]

http://www.radiandradi.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/rozafa.jpg

[Skerdilaid]

It's Slavic, just like your origins, most likely.

[Drawing-slim]

It's Slavic, just like your origins, most likely.

What?!

[Skerdilaid]

What?!

He is into something, I must admit. Post 131: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?160869-Islam-in-Europe-(map)/page14



OP where do you base your opinion that the Rozafa legend is not Gheg and Albanian, since Kurt here wants to know too? You seem to have a grandeur delusion on Tosk superiority, so perhaps you ought to read one, and I must admit, he is as superior as they come. I suggest you Three Arched Bridge by Kadare for starters.

[kuqezi]

Can you tell why the legend was created this way?

It is pretty clear to me that this is a product of the patriarchal culture of the western Balkans.

It has to do with the dilemma of obeying those who are higher than you in rank at any cost, as was the social order. The beauty is in the honor and nobility in which the said fate was accepted and carried on.

[altin]

It's Slavic, just like your origins, most likely.

More likely you are Albanian speaking Slav and that's why its logic feels foreign.


It is pretty clear to me that this is a product of the patriarchal culture of the western Balkans.

It has to do with the dilemma of obeying those who are higher than you in rank at any cost, as was the social order. The beauty is in the honor and nobility in which the said fate was accepted and carried on.

No, nothing to do with patriarchy. This legend as well as that of Kostandin and Doruntin have both the same theme, going to the extreme to keep the word.
- What would be the most difficult choice for sacrificing someone?
- A young woman that has a newborn son and is extremely dedicated to do his mother, like Rozafa. The legend intentionally tries to make the choice as hard as possible.

- What would be the most difficult (impossible really) condition that obstacles someone to keep the promise?
- His death. In the other legend the earth wouldn't accept Kostandin with his promise still pending.

And as a synthesis of these legends, Albanians have inherited the expression "Shqiptari kur jep fjalen ther djalen".

The next step is answering the question: Why keeping the word was extremely important in the culture of the people that created those legends? That would explain why there is no reward for keeping the word, nor punishment for not doing it.

Not bad for a Tosk deciphering "Gheg culture" :)

[Skerdilaid]

More likely you are Albanian speaking Slav and that's why its logic feels foreign.



No, nothing to do with patriarchy. This legend as well as that of Kostandin and Doruntin have both the same theme, going to the extreme to keep the word.
- What would be the most difficult choice for sacrificing someone?
- A young woman that has a newborn son and is extremely dedicated to do his mother, like Rozafa. The legend intentionally tries to make the choice as hard as possible.

- What would be the most difficult (impossible really) condition that obstacles someone to keep the promise?
- His death. In the other legend the earth wouldn't accept Kostandin with his promise still pending.

And as a synthesis of these legends, Albanians have inherited the expression "Shqiptari kur jep fjalen ther djalen".

The next step is answering the question: Why keeping the word was extremely important in the culture of the people that created those legends? That would explain why there is no reward for keeping the word, nor punishment for not doing it.

Not bad for a Tosk deciphering "Gheg culture" :)

Sure I am, but you are the one making assumptions based on how you understand/absorb such legends. And, actually your logic is foreign, since you don't seem to grasp such concepts of "keeping the word", because to me it comes natural by heart.

The punishment for not keeping the word in most cases was death, my deluded Tosk friend. Have I mentioned that my great grandfather killed his cousin for breaking the Oath? Well there you go then, you are learning Gheg things.

Moral of the legend is to show strength and courage, and also sacrifice for your family.

[altin]

Sure I am, but you are the one making assumptions based on how you understand/absorb such legends. And, actually your logic is foreign, since you don't seem to grasp such concepts of "keeping the word", because to me it comes natural by heart.

The punishment for not keeping the word in most cases was death, my deluded Tosk friend. Have I mentioned that my great grandfather killed his cousin for breaking the Oath? Well there you go then, you are learning Gheg things.

In your world, yes. But not in the culture of the people that created the legends. As I said, to understand why there ins't reward or punishment in the legends, you need to understand why was it so important to keep the word?

Killing someone for not keeping the word still doesn't explain why keeping the word was important, because the importance is the cause and the punishment its effect.

[Skerdilaid]

In your world, yes. But not in the culture of the people that created the legends. As I said, to understand why there ins't reward or punishment in the legends, you need to understand why was it so important to keep the word?

Killing someone for not keeping the word still doesn't explain why keeping the word was important, because the importance is the cause and the punishment its effect.


Ok, you have to be more specific of "people" you speak of, and tell us who they are, because we have established so far that it's not Slavic and neither Gheg. FYI such legend only exists on Gheg and Montenegrin folklore.

You simply don't get the legend because you don't understand patriarchal societies, it seems. If you did, you would know that keeping the word, obeying the elderly male, and sacrificing for your kin are the bases of such a culture, specifically for Ghegs. As I said, the moral of the story is how a young mother sacrificed herself to see her son grow and become great.

Also, the object, the castle in this case, doesn't play a significant part, and I would say has no meaning at all, since you seem to be concentrating a great part of your reasoning on it. Though, the tradition of sacrificing animals persist to this day. So, if you enlightened yourself a bit more on Gheg folklore/culture (without quotation marks) you would know that, even today, when Gheg builds his house or a wall he sacrifices a Ram and places the head on the foundation.

[Drawing-slim]

He is into something, I must admit. Post 131: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?160869-Islam-in-Europe-(map)/page14



OP where do you base your opinion that the Rozafa legend is not Gheg and Albanian, since Kurt here wants to know too? You seem to have a grandeur delusion on Tosk superiority, so perhaps you ought to read one, and I must admit, he is as superior as they come. I suggest you Three Arched Bridge by Kadare for starters.Nothing against tosk albos but at this point any tosk being fascinated with the tosk factor and attempting to express this in the expense of ghegs in anyway, is the saddest lamest oldest fucking most pathetic mindset you can come across.

[Skerdilaid]

Nothing against tosk albos but at this point any tosk being fascinated with the tosk factor and attempting to express this in the expense of ghegs in anyway, is the saddest lamest oldest fucking most pathetic mindset you can come across.
Actually I have never come across a Tosk with his mindset, so I really doubt his "Toskness".

[The Illyrian Warrior]

Actually I have never come across a Tosk with his mindset, so I really doubt his "Toskness".

Don't be surprised if he comes from a "Greek" family or something of that sort cause I never got to know a Tosk Albanian to push for illusional division among Albanians like this fella here.

[blogen]

Yes, this is a common Slavonic legend. For example the legend of the Hungarian castle's building: Déva. The name origin from the Slavonic deva = girl world and of course she was sacrificed at the time of the building of the castle, she was walled up into the wall.

http://blog.eloerdely.ro/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Deva.jpg

[Abeja]

The short story is that that legend testifies about a culture that was at the core of a civilization. It's not a legend about barbarians. The people that built those castles and the cities near them, were the same people that built appollonia, butrint, athene, and so on. But Greek priests that re-wrote the history, couldn't understand it to include even those cities as "Greek colonies".
The legend is obviously about keeping the word. It has the same theme as the legend of Kostandin & Doruntin. This is the starting point to understand it.
Ask the question: Why was so important for the people of this culture keeping the word? Even if doing so would cost the life of your dear one (Rozafa). Or even if you are dead (as in the case of Kostandin). What do you think? (If you have an idea, go post it at the other thread, here we went far enough off topic).

So I answer here as I said.
This legend is about keeping the word. But isn't keeping the word a very distinctive and prominent part of the life and culture of Ghegs more than Tosks? By accepting that this legend talks about keeping the word, you are admitting that with a lot of probability is of Ghegs that we are talking about, not Tosks.

As for the question, I think that these people knew that there wasn't an afterlife to be punished or blessed for their missed oath, so that it would have been for them of the supreme importance to give everything they had to keep their word and honouring the oath in the "living" world. This is at least how I interpret it. Give me your opinion.
I though keep to not understand how this may link this legend to Tosks and not Ghegs.


The short story is that that legend testifies about a culture that was at the core of a civilization. It's not a legend about barbarians. The people that built those castles and the cities near them, were the same people that built appollonia, butrint, athene, and so on. But Greek priests that re-wrote the history, couldn't understand it to include even those cities as "Greek colonies".

This is a grave statement, that need a thorough analysis. Prove what you claim.

[kuqezi]

More likely you are Albanian speaking Slav and that's why its logic feels foreign.



No, nothing to do with patriarchy. This legend as well as that of Kostandin and Doruntin have both the same theme, going to the extreme to keep the word.
- What would be the most difficult choice for sacrificing someone?
- A young woman that has a newborn son and is extremely dedicated to do his mother, like Rozafa. The legend intentionally tries to make the choice as hard as possible.

- What would be the most difficult (impossible really) condition that obstacles someone to keep the promise?
- His death. In the other legend the earth wouldn't accept Kostandin with his promise still pending.

And as a synthesis of these legends, Albanians have inherited the expression "Shqiptari kur jep fjalen ther djalen".

The next step is answering the question: Why keeping the word was extremely important in the culture of the people that created those legends? That would explain why there is no reward for keeping the word, nor punishment for not doing it.

Not bad for a Tosk deciphering "Gheg culture" :)

Actually there is severe sanction and punishment in the society for breaking ones word, as Skerdilaid mentioned. The afterlife is indeed meaningless but all dishonors have to be cleansed in this world, in blood. And if you die you just pass this on this debt to the next in your blood line, thats how that works.

Keeping ones word was very basic but important role to fulfill in this society centered upon the concept of honor, it was to preserve life. Without it and with widespread breaking of word there would be rampant killing and the society would wipe itself out.

[Atvend]

The legend is not Slavic, the legend is pagan. Sacrifice of a person, often a symbol of fertility such as a woman in child bearing age, so that the construction of a project may succeed is a commonly occurring theme in several pagan legends. I have personally heard the same story for the other castles in Albania, I understand that many other cultures also have their own versions. For example Curtea de Argeș Cathedral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtea_de_Arge%C8%99_Cathedral).