Map of European Admixture Based on K12b

[Shepherd]

I have two, one counting Atlantic-Med and North European as "European" and the second counting those two + Caucasus as European components

I hope no one gets offended, this is straight from the K12b spreadsheet

First
http://i.imgur.com/T2Df1za.png
http://i.imgur.com/7CnN9At.png

[Hadouken]

why do the maps show different numbers ?

edit: sorry nevermind I just read it

[Damião de Góis]

I'm assuming the first map is simply the sum of Atlantic-Med + North European. How did you calculate the percentages on the 2nd map?

Edit - Ok, Caucasus

[Hadouken]

why arent med components counted ?

[Shepherd]

why arent med components counted ?

its one Atlantic-Med component on K12b

[Dombra]

why arent med components counted ?

They are not European :bow00001:

[Jehan]

I'am really surprise by the sicilian result in the first map 41.7%

[Hadouken]

its one Atlantic-Med component on K12b

arent there other med components too ?


They are not European :bow00001:

then you arent by a long shot

mong etc :D

those people you call wogs and non european civilized you albino mongs :P :lol:

[Shepherd]

arent there other med components too ?



nope
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE

[Bell Beaker]

Since when Ashkenazis are closer to Portugal in European Admixture? Lol....

[Bell Beaker]

West Med is clearly European.

[Shepherd]

West Med is clearly European.

West Med wasn't a component on the spreadsheet I used

[Shepherd]

these are components used
http://i.imgur.com/LlApoko.png

[Bell Beaker]

these are components used
http://i.imgur.com/LlApoko.png

Interesting. Can you show me Iberian Results?

[Leto]

Since when Ashkenazis are closer to Portugal in European Admixture? Lol....
You are one, dude.:D

[Shepherd]

Interesting. Can you show me Iberian Results?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

ctrl+f and search "Spanish" "Spaniards" "Portuguese" "Andalucia" etc, or just scroll through and look till you find em

[Hadouken]

nope
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE

I like this one more

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

[Vasconcelos]

Some samples are really small.

[Bell Beaker]

You are one, dude.:D

Im far from Being Ashkenazi. If i have some Jewish ancestry wich i doubt it has to be Sephardic.

[Shepherd]

I like this one more

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0
whats the difference

[Leto]

Im far from Being Ashkenazi. If i have some Jewish ancestry wich i doubt it has to be Sephardic.
I'm just joking. Of course, you aren't.

[Hadouken]

whats the difference

more components and maybe a little more detailed

[Hadouken]

Im far from Being Ashkenazi. If i have some Jewish ancestry wich i doubt it has to be Sephardic.

how you draw an ethnic connection between Ashkenazis and Iberians ..in particulary YOU only because Ashkenazi have similar European Admixture percentage is beyond me

[Dani Cutie]

Central italians 84%?
When did this map?

[Dani Cutie]

West Med is clearly European.

Very clear.

[Shepherd]

Very clear.

of course it is, but it wasn't one of the components that was used on the spreadsheet used to make this map

[Bell Beaker]

more components and maybe a little more detailed

You posted the same link lol.

[Hadouken]

You posted the same link lol.

haha sorry :D I meant this

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuW3R0Ys-P4HdDhib1M5OE1wWENNb2haUFFWZzNBMEE&type=view&gid=0&f=true&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250

[Dani Cutie]

This map is based on NW European + Mediterranean + East-European .

http://i.imgur.com/StBUQuU.jpg

[Shepherd]

This map is based on NW European + Mediterranean + East-European .


it was made from a different spreadsheet than the one I used, but its good too

[SwampThing26]

Interesting. I fall quite away from my known ancestries on these maps.

[Demhat]

Considering physical appearance, the second one of "Euro American" makes much more sense than any other map posted here on this thread.

[Demhat]

But the remaining Question is, can a quater/half of the total percentage of "Gedrosia" not be considered as European also? Since it is relatively significant in West/Northwest Europe and derives mostly from ANE, as the Mal'ta genome showed.

Edit: Nevermind

[SwampThing26]

If half of gedrosia is included i move from Austria to Britain

[Demhat]

If half of gedrosia is included i move from Austria to Britain


:D Nevermind. Shows how hard it is to pinpoint the exact percentage.

But in my opinion and from what I have seen, in accordence to physical appearance, the Atlanto_Med+North Euro+Caucasus map comes very close to the reality.

If someone includes or excludes Gedrosia partly is secondary in this case.

But from the countries in the East. I would only include Georgia as part of Europe. Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan are more borderline in my opinion.

[Sikeliot]

Southern Italian users are going to be pissed...

[Sikeliot]

On the second map, Sicily should be 78.2% or so, you incorrectly added only 29.5% Caucasus to them when they have 36.5%.

[Isleño]

I'am really surprise by the sicilian result in the first map 41.7%

That's only when Northern European and Atlantic_Med is counted combined. But if you look on the K12, not the K12b, there is a separate Mediterranean category and Sicilians score 43% alone in that one category (Neolithic Mediterranean in Sicilians). But when you add the other components like Mesolithic European and the West Asian, you get the bulk of their DNA with a minor SW Asian score. I also notice that the K12 has better categories that are more precise than the K12b and on the K12b, the Neolithic Mediterranean is getting split into "Atlantic_Med" and "Caucasus" on many groups. That's not happening in the K12. Here, take a look at the K12 spreadsheet from Dodecad (West European and East European is representative of Mesolithic European and Mediterranean is representing the Neolithic Mediterranean):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&authkey=COCa89AJ&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

[Sikeliot]

That's only when Northern European and Atlantic_Med is counted combined. But if you look on the K12, not the K12b, there is a separate Mediterranean category and Sicilians score 43% alone in that one category (Neolithic Mediterranean in Sicilians). But when you add the other components like Mesolithic European and the West Asian, you get the bulk of their DNA with a minor SW Asian score. I also notice that the K12 has better categories that are more precise than the K12b and on the K12b, the Neolithic Mediterranean is getting split into "Atlantic_Med" and "Caucasus" on many groups. That's not happening in the K12. Here, take a look at the K12 spreadsheet from Dodecad (West European and East European is representative of Mesolithic European and Mediterranean is representing the Neolithic Mediterranean):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&authkey=COCa89AJ&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0


Adding up Mediterranean and Caucasus covers most of Sicilian DNA. But as I pointed out the second map underestimates their Caucasian score.

[Shepherd]

On the second map, Sicily should be 78.2% or so, you incorrectly added only 29.5% Caucasus to them when they have 36.5%.

You're absolutely right, its 78.2% my bad

Ill edit it and replace the second map in the morning

[Isleño]

On the second map, Sicily should be 78.2% or so, you incorrectly added only 29.5% Caucasus to them when they have 36.5%.

I like K12 better than K12b. Notice on K12, Sicilians score 43% Mediterranean (representative of Neolithic Mediterranean) and on K12b, the same component is split between Caucasus and Atlantic_Med, since all of the Mediterranean in Sicilians is obviously not Atlantic. I think K12b is more faulty than K12.

Here's K12:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&authkey=COCa89AJ&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

[Shepherd]

Southern Italian users are going to be pissed...

post the first map on Italic Roots :lol:

[Sehnsucht]

http://i.imgur.com/T2Df1za.png


My grandfather is half German his Atlantic-Med and North European total up to 81.7% so he is right there with the German average

[Sikeliot]

I like K12 better than K12b. Notice on K12b, Sicilians score 43% Mediterranean (representative of Neolithic Mediterranean) and on K12b, the same component is split between Caucasus and Atlantic_Med, since not all of the Mediterranean in Sicilians is obviously not Atlantic. I think K12b is more faulty than K12.

Here's K12:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&authkey=COCa89AJ&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

What strikes me is Greeks have 11% of the "East Euro" and Sicilians have 4%. Then again it depends where the Greek sample is from.

Either way, "Mediterranean" and "Caucasus" make up most of Sicilian genes. I have been told that the Sicilian sample on that chart is from Trapani, the most northern plotting region on the island. So other Sicilians should be further south.

I can send you some Dodecad ID numbers I know to be Sicilian and Greek from different regions if you want to see.

[Sikeliot]

post the first map on Italic Roots :lol:

Sicilians on the second should have 78.2% European, I think. Recalculate it just to be sure but I think you discounted the Caucasus score by around 7%.

[Shepherd]

Sicilians on the second should have 78.2% European, I think. Recalculate it just to be sure but I think you discounted the Caucasus score by around 7%.

yeah youre right I did

i think I quoted you already about it just now haha, you mustve not gotten the notification

so yeah, my bad, ill fix it tomorrow morning and update the map

[Demhat]

Southern Italian users are going to be pissed...

I took them also into consideration this is why I said from the three maps posted here, the Atlanto_Med+North Euro+ Caucasus makes the most sense and suits them best.


South Europeans as general would be pissed about this here
http://i.imgur.com/T2Df1za.png


Italians as a whole would be pissed about this one. And probably some Central and Southeast Europeans also.
http://i.imgur.com/StBUQuU.jpg


This one however comes closest and would piss the South Italians of the least. And physically seen allot of people would probably agree with it. It's not perfect for sure, maybe 1/3 of total Gedrosia could be added to suit the West Europeans slightly but it get's the idea right.
http://i.imgur.com/7CnN9At.png



Edit. I see the South italians probably got 78% Euro.

[Sikeliot]

I took them also into consideration this is why I said from the three maps posted here, the Atlanto_Med+North Euro+ Caucasus makes the most sense and suits them best.

The thing is, with all of the DNA evidence all saying the same thing, southern Italians will eventually have to accept that they are a peripheral European group genetically, and that while genetically mostly European of course, they still plot on the edge of Europe alongside Greek islanders and Maltese.

[Shepherd]

I took them also into consideration this is why I said from the three maps posted here, the Atlanto_Med+North Euro+ Caucasus makes the most sense and suits them best.


South Europeans as general would be pissed about this here
http://i.imgur.com/T2Df1za.png


Italians as a whole would be pissed about this one. And probably some Central and Southeast Europeans also.
http://i.imgur.com/StBUQuU.jpg


This one however comes closest and would piss the South Italians of the least. And physically seen allot of people would probably agree with it. It's not perfect for sure but it get's the idea right.
http://i.imgur.com/7CnN9At.png

Its hardly about what suits who, I chose those three components since they seem closest to each other

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--ObN1jLp4-4/TuQpCc1fFAI/AAAAAAAAEWo/cU-Wu9hC7DY/s1600/1_2.png

[Demhat]

I like K12 better than K12b. Notice on K12, Sicilians score 43% Mediterranean (representative of Neolithic Mediterranean) and on K12b, the same component is split between Caucasus and Atlantic_Med, since all of the Mediterranean in Sicilians is obviously not Atlantic. I think K12b is more faulty than K12.

Here's K12:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&authkey=COCa89AJ&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

The problem here is, Caucasus is not entirely West Asian but more like 65% of the West Asian component, 8% North Euro and 27% of Mediterranesn component.

Gedrosia has the rest of West Asian and is like 92% West Asian and 8% South Asian. Since K12 has Caucasus but no Gedrosia component, the rest of the West Asian component gets eaten up, 2/3 by North Euro and 1/3 by South Asian.

The best Calculator I have seen so far is Globe_13. It was also the last Calculator Dienekes ever brought out. This should also tell something about the credibility. Since Dienekes never saw a reason to publish a new one.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2

If you combine the North Euro, Mediterranean and West Asian percentage you get wonderful and clear picture.

Just as example a few populations.

Spaniards 93% Euro
Russians 90.5%
Germans 96%
South Italians 80.5%
Greeks 85%
North Italians 92%
Georgians 85%


I suggest globe_13 over any other calculator.

[Mortimer]

Myself
AM + NE = 45%
AM + NE + Caucasus= 68.6%

[SwampThing26]

I took them also into consideration this is why I said from the three maps posted here, the Atlanto_Med+North Euro+ Caucasus makes the most sense and suits them best.


South Europeans as general would be pissed about this here
http://i.imgur.com/T2Df1za.png


Italians as a whole would be pissed about this one. And probably some Central and Southeast Europeans also.
http://i.imgur.com/StBUQuU.jpg


This one however comes closest and would piss the South Italians of the least. And physically seen allot of people would probably agree with it. It's not perfect for sure, maybe 1/3 of total Gedrosia could be added to suit the West Europeans slightly but it get's the idea right.
http://i.imgur.com/7CnN9At.png



Edit. I see the South italians probably got 78% Euro.

Using the third option you posted i score 85.7%. Seems kinda low.

[Demhat]

Its hardly about what suits who, I chose those three components since they seem closest to each other

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--ObN1jLp4-4/TuQpCc1fFAI/AAAAAAAAEWo/cU-Wu9hC7DY/s1600/1_2.png

The map is only in one dimension and shows which components are close to Caucasus and North Euro. It doesn't show the entire interrelation. According to this map, Southwest Asian should be closer to Caucasus than both Gedrosia and Med.

I recommend to use the fst table.

Caucasus, North Euro and Atlanto_Med are the closest to each other. Followed by Gedrosia which shows strong closeness to Caucasus and North Euro but not so close to Atlanto_Med.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kXZ8Mxu5dns/TybJ7CQJuPI/AAAAAAAAEbk/QYJc4rvQ3ww/s1600/fst.png


But as I said I recommened Globe_13 over any other Calculator, because it's percentage of "Euro" genes is the most reliable.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=0

[Isleño]

But the remaining Question is, can a quater/half of the total percentage of "Gedrosia" not be considered as European also? Since it is relatively significant in West/Northwest Europe and derives mostly from ANE, as the Mal'ta genome showed.

Edit: Nevermind

All of the Gedrosia could be considered European since most Europeans have it and it's so ancient and makes up part of the genome of Europeans. In my opinion, the main components found in most Europeans are (I will list them as they are listed on the K12b) and that is North_European+Atlantic_Med+Gedrosia+Caucasus, then there are the minor admixture groups like SW Asian, Northwest African and Siberian. This mix of components make up Europeans.

[Demhat]

Using the third option you posted i score 85.7%. Seems kinda low.

But it's still not even closely that unfair to you as the two other options to Italians. You might have 3-4% less Euro but in the other options Italians have up to 15% less Euro :D

But as I said Globe_13 is the best calculator of all. A map should be made on this.

Take a try and see how you score with Globe_13
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2

[Sikeliot]

But it's still not even closely that unfair to you as the two other options to Italians. You might have 3-4% less Euro but in the other options Italians have up to 15% less Euro :D

But as I said Globe_13 is the best calculator of all. A map should be made on this.

Take a try and see how you score with Globe_13
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2


Sicilians and Greeks come out more similar there.. Sicilians are just 1% more West Asian and 2% more SW Asian than the Greeks.. this is accurate I think.

[Demhat]

Sicilians and Greeks come out more similar there.. Sicilians are just 1% more West Asian and 2% more SW Asian than the Greeks.. this is accurate I think.


It is my friend. I know what I am saying, if I say it is one of the most accurate ;) and I have seen quite allot of calculators.

[Shepherd]

But it's still not even closely that unfair to you as the two other options to Italians. You might have 3-4% less Euro but in the other options Italians have up to 15% less Euro :D

But as I said Globe_13 is the best calculator of all. A map should be made on this.

Take a try and see how you score with Globe_13
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2

whats with Euros having such high SW asian in that one?

almost 20% in southern Europeans? how?

[Arch Hades]

Unfortunately the ADMIXTURE program doesn't date admixture, nor does it actually name the subjective labels others put onto these genetic clines : )

[Isleño]

The problem here is, Caucasus is not entirely West Asian but more like 65% of the West Asian component, 8% North Euro and 27% of Mediterranesn component.

Gedrosia has the rest of West Asian and is like 92% West Asian and 8% South Asian. Since K12 has Caucasus but no Gedrosia component, the rest of the West Asian component gets eaten up by South Asian.

The best Calculator I have seen so far is Globe_13. It was also the last Calculator Dienekes ever brought out. This should also tell something about the credibility. Since Dienekes never saw a reason to publish a new one.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2

If you combine the North Euro, Mediterranean and West Asian percentage you get wonderful and clear picture.

Just as example a few populations.

Spaniards 93% Euro
Russians 90.5%
Germans 96%
South Italians 80.5%
North Italians 92%
Georgians 85%


I suggest globe_13 over any other calculator.
Yes, but K12 doesn't have the Caucasus component and only has West Asian. I think you mean K12b which has Caucasus. But I do agree that Caucasus is a combo of West Asian, North Euro and Mediterranean and that's the very reason that K12b is splitting the Mediterranean in half from K12 and half of it's going into the Caucasus component on K12b since the Caucasus component is partially Mediterranean. That's why I think K12 is better than K12b, it seems more accurate.

globe_13 is good too. But I wasn't making an argument against it, just for the K12 in favor over the K12b.

[Isleño]

whats with Euros having such high SW asian in that one?

almost 20% in southern Europeans? how?
Yes, I noticed that as well. That does seem a bit off when compared to other calculators and studies.

[Demhat]

Yes, I noticed that as well. That does seem a bit off when compared to other calculators and studies.


It's slightly higher, but this Southwest Asian in this calculator is mostly Neolithic farmer DNA related to Mediterranean but which stayed mostly in the Middle East.

As we see overall the percentages are very fitting.

[Shepherd]

It's slightly higher, but this Southwest Asian in this calculator is mostly Neolithic farmer DNA related to Mediterranean but which stayed mostly in the Middle East.

As we see overall the percentages are very fitting.

k12b does have Gedrosia btw, look at the spreadsheet again, its the first component

[Shepherd]

It's slightly higher, but this Southwest Asian in this calculator is mostly Neolithic farmer DNA related to Mediterranean but which stayed mostly in the Middle East.

As we see overall the percentages are very fitting.

a bit more than slightly higher,

from 0% in Georgians on K12b to over 20% on this one

[Sikeliot]

whats with Euros having such high SW asian in that one?

almost 20% in southern Europeans? how?

One of the Sicilian women on there (a Palermitan) scored 20% exactly. DOD097.

[Demhat]

k12b does have Gedrosia btw, look at the spreadsheet again, its the first component

I wrote K12.

K12b has Gedrosia yes, but K12 doesn't and the genes of Gedrosia end up in North Euro 2/3 of it and South Asia 1/3 of it. It creates a zombie component.

[Isleño]

Sicilians and Greeks come out more similar there.. Sicilians are just 1% more West Asian and 2% more SW Asian than the Greeks.. this is accurate I think.

Only thing is I think globe_13 gives too high of SW Asian. SW Asian on all the Europeans are greatly increased, more than it should.

[Demhat]

One of the Sicilian women on there (a Palermitan) scored 20% exactly. DOD097.

As I wrote most of "Southwest Asian" in this calculator is the portion of farmer DNA which is more prevelant in the Southern and Western parts of the Middle East as in Europe but still came to Europe mostly with Neolithic farmers. As we know Bedouins are mostly Neolithic farmers with 10% of East African admixture. So at the end. The Southwest Asian component is like 90% Neolithic farmer with 10% East African.

So 1/10 of 20% would be 18% additional farmer + 2% East African admixture.

Southwest Asian hasn't really increased it has been recalculated in accordence to Neolthic farmer DNA.

We can't expect to have no significant genetic overlap with Southern West Asia also.

[Shepherd]

One of the Sicilian women on there (a Palermitan) scored 20% exactly. DOD097.

on Globe13 or K12b?

[Isleño]

As I wrote most of "Southwest Asian" in this calculator is the portion of farmer DNA which is more prevelant in the Southern and Western parts of the Middle East as in Europe but still came to Europe mostly with Neolithic farmers. As we know Bedouins are mostly Neolithic farmers with 10% of East African admixture. So at the end. The Southwest Asian component is like 90% Neolithic farmer with 10% East African.

So 1/10 of 20% would be 18% additional farmer + 2% East African admixture.

Southwest Asian hasn't really increased it has been recalculated in accordence to Neolthic farmer DNA.

We can't expect to have no significant genetic overlap with Southern West Asia also.
Yes, but if you look at most other calculators and studies on Europeans, Europeans do not score as high SW Asian as you are seeing here in globe_13. Virtually all Europeans had their SW Asian rise substantially in globe_13. I think it's off. The other components seem to be fine, just the SW Asian seems off.

[Demhat]

The Southwest Asian in Globe 13 should not be confused with Southwest Asian in K12. Just like South Asian of Dodecad v3 shouldn't be confused with South Asian of K12b or even Globe_13.

Southwest Asian percentage in Globe13 is in accordence to additional Neolithic farmer DNA in Arabians and Levantines. It is very close to the Lazaridis calculator.

Southwest Asian basically is another term for West Asia. Southwest Asian in Globe 13 is not so Arabian centrated as Southwest Asian in other calculators.

This Southwest Asian is more shifted towards the Levant. Compare both and you will see what I mean ;)

[Isleño]

on Globe13 or K12b?

On globe_13. On no calculator or study to my knowledge, a Sicilians scores 20% SW Asian. Notice all the other SW Asian scores are jacked up in globe_13. That seems to be the only issue I have with that calculator, the other components seem fine.

[Isleño]

The Southwest Asian in Globe 13 should not be confused with Southwest Asian in K12. Just like South Asian of Dodecad v3 shouldn't be confused with South Asian of K12b or even Globe_13.

Southwest Asian percentage in Globe13 is in accordence to Neolithic farmer DNA in Arabians and Levantines. It is very close to the Lazaridis calculator.

Southwest Asian basically is another term for West Asia. Southwest Asian in Globe 13 is not so Arabian centrated as Southwest Asian in other calculators.
This Southwest Asian is more shifted towards the Levant.Lazaridis doesn't put the SW Asian scores that high. I think they are too high on globe_13.

[Demhat]

Lazaridis doesn't put the SW Asian scores that high. I think they are too high on globe_13.

Lazaridis doesn't split the Neolithic farmer DNA into Southwest and Mediterranean. He put it simply together into an Middle Eastern cluster.
;)


Thats what I am trying to explain. You can see Southwest Asian and Mediterranean of this calculator in not exactly the same, but similar relation between Caucasus and Gedrosia. They are two sides of the same medal.

[Sikeliot]

Lazaridis doesn't put the SW Asian scores that high. I think they are too high on globe_13.

They rise proportionally for everyone, though.

I think the Greeks are an average of mainland and island. I am unsure which part of Sicily that average is from, but 17% is what I see for most people on the list, with a few of them a bit higher, and one lower.

[Demhat]

Sorry I gave the wrong link. I don't remember if it was Lazaridis but I think it was him. There was a paper about Mal'ta DNA. And in this paper the Neolithic famer DNA (Southwest Asian+Mediterranean) was put together as "Middle Eastern".

There were three labeles. Middle Eastern, European and South Asian. If anyone remembers the paper please link it.

[Demhat]

They rise proportionally for everyone, though.

I think the Greeks are an average of mainland and island. I am unsure which part of Sicily that average is from, but 17% is what I see for most people on the list, with a few of them a bit higher, and one lower.

Thats the point, because the Southwest Asian was simply recalculated in accordence to Neolthic farmer DNA. ;)

It's simply the labeling what irritates the people. Dienekes could have called the component "Southern farmer DNA" and it wouldn't irritate the people that much.

It's not like Southwest Asian get drastically higher in one group but remains the same in the other.

[Isleño]

Lazaridis doesn't split the Neolithic farmer DNA into Southwest and Mediterranean. He put it simply together into an Middle Eastern cluster.
;)


Thats what I am trying to explain. You can see Southwest Asian and Mediterranean of this calculator in not exactly the same, but similar relation between Caucasus and Gedrosia. They are two sides of the same medal.

Yes, but if Lazaridis would have split it, the SW Asian would decrease since splitting the Mediterranean would decrease the total of a SW Asian category. But it didn't. It actually rose in the globe_13 calculator, even if it was split or not. I think globe_13 is set too high for SW Asian. Also ancient DNA from the Levant had less Bedouin DNA before the arrival of Islam, which would make ancient DNA less SW Asian than modern DNA. I believe the setting is off. No other calculators predict like this one on SW Asian. They all calculate in similar percentages for Europeans, except for globe_13 is jacking up the SW Asian.

[Sikeliot]

Thats the point, because the Southwest Asian was simply recalculated in accordence to Neolthic farmer DNA. ;)

It's simply the labeling what irritates the people. Dienekes could have called the component "Southern farmer DNA" and it wouldn't irritate the people much.

Mine is 11.4% there, my mom's is 5.2%. So my dad would score 17.6% or so.

[Isleño]

They rise proportionally for everyone, though.

I think the Greeks are an average of mainland and island. I am unsure which part of Sicily that average is from, but 17% is what I see for most people on the list, with a few of them a bit higher, and one lower.
Yes, that's the point, they are rising for everyone and are not in line with other calculators and studies. So what does that tell you? The numbers are off.

[Demhat]

Yes, but if Lazaridis would have split it, the SW Asian would decrease since splitting the Mediterranean would decrease the total of a SW Asian category. But it didn't. It actually rose in the globe_13 calculator, even if it was split or not. I think globe_13 is set too high for SW Asian. Also ancient DNA from the Levant had less Bedouin DNA before the arrival of Islam, which would make ancient DNA less SW Asian than modern DNA. I believe the setting is off. No other calculators predict like this one on SW Asian. They all calculate in similar percentages for Europeans, except for globe_13 is jacking up the SW Asian.


I think you misunderstood. The Mediterranean wasn't split into Southwest Asian and something else.

The Mediterranean component is not the one and only descend of Earlly Near Eastern farmer DNA. The Mediterranean is one portion of it while Southwest Asian is the other.

If I remember correctly Goetzi and Suttgart always scored some significant percentage of Southwest Asian additional to the Mediterranean. And this additional Southwest Asian is the farmer DNA today relevant in Arabians and Levantines. :)

[Demhat]

Yes, that's the point, they are rising for everyone and are not in line with other calculators and studies. So what does that tell you? The numbers are off.

If they rise for everyone in same manner that doesn't mean the numbers are off, but that some genes were simply added into the Southwest Asian label.

What I am trying to explain the whole day is that. There are some genes in the Levant. let's say genes xyz, which are both close to Mediterranean genes in Europe as well Southwest Asian Genes in Arabians. In other calculators chosed to be added under the Mediterranean label, but now in accordence to our modern knowledge of farmer DNA beeing something like a combination of Mediterranean and Southwest Asian, now added to Southwest Asian to bring the two closer, in accordence to how close these components are in reality since they share a common ancestry. :)

Southwest Asian of the former calculators is not the same as Southwest Asian in this calculator. So you can't compare the percentage and than come to the conclusion that they are "off", because they are not the same. The only thing they share is the label. This Southwest Asian is more shifted towards Levant.

[Sikeliot]

My own SW Asian is fairly high there also.

[Isleño]

I think you misunderstood. The Mediterranean wasn't split into Southwest Asian and something else.

The Mediterranean component is not the one and only descend of Earlly Near Eastern farmer DNA. The Mediterranean is one portion of it while Southwest Asian is the other.

If I remember correctly Goetzi and Suttgart always scored some significant percentage of Southwest Asian additional to the Mediterranean. And this additional Southwest Asian is the farmer DNA today relevant in Arabians and Levantines. :)

Yes, but true Bedouin (SW Asian) in ancient Levantine samples are lower than modern Levantines, thus we can thank the rise of Islam in the Levant for this. Adding Mediterranean into the SW Asian sample would bring the percentages higher, but it wouldn't be true SW Asian. So with these factors in hand, the SW Asian should be decreased rather than being increased. Notice if you look at all the other calculators, SW Asian is within a percentage or two from each other and in other studies and DNA tests. globe_13 seems to be jacking up the SW Asian. I can't point to any calculators or studies that are giving SW Asian scores as high as 20% for any European. And if it's not true SW Asian, then what's the use of making a score labeled SW Asian? It's useless.

IMHO, the SW Asian is off. The other components seem fine.

[Sikeliot]

Yes, but true Bedouin (SW Asian) in ancient Levantine samples are lower than modern Levantines, thus we can thank the rise of Islam in the Levant for this. Adding Mediterranean into the SW Asian sample would bring the percentages higher, but it wouldn't be true SW Asian. So with these factors in hand, the SW Asian should be decreased rather than being increased. Notice if you look at all the other calculators, SW Asian is within a percentage or two from each other and in other studies and DNA tests. globe_13 seems to be jacking up the SW Asian. I can't point to any calculators or studies that are giving SW Asian scores as high as 20% for any European. And if it's not true SW Asian, then what's the use of making a score labeled SW Asian? It's useless.

IMHO, the SW Asian is off. The other components seem fine.

Dodecad K12b I have seen it be 20% for one Calabrese.

[Mark]

My own SW Asian is fairly high there also.

I'm surprised to hear that. I would think yours would only be about 8% on K12b.

[Demhat]

"Southwest Asian" of K12b for example is totally Arabian fixated as you see on the percentages.

Saudis 68%
Samaritans (the Levantines with the highest percentage) 32%

Saudis have more than twice as much. So this component is really more like "Arabian" farmer


However Southwest Asian of Globe 13

Saudis 65%
Samaritans 41%

That one is more of a Southeastern Levantine specific component.

[Sikeliot]

I'm surprised to hear that. I would think yours would only be about 8% on K12b.

I think it's 7% on there.

It's 11% on K13.

[Isleño]

If they rise for everyone in same manner that doesn't mean the numbers are off, but that some genes were simply added into the Southwest Asian label.

What I am trying to explain the whole day is that. There are some genes in the Levant. let's say genes xyz, which are both close to Mediterranean genes in Europe as well Southwest Asian Genes in Arabians. In other calculators chosed to be added under the Mediterranean label, but now in accordence to our modern knowledge of farmer DNA beeing something like a combination of Mediterranean and Southwest Asian, now added to Southwest Asian to bring the two closer, in accordence to how close these components are in reality since they share a common ancestry. :)

Southwest Asian of the former calculators is not the same as Southwest Asian in this calculator. So you can't compare the percentage and than come to the conclusion that they are "off", because they are not the same. The only thing they share is the label. This Southwest Asian is more shifted towards Levant.
So basically they are adding extra genes and labeling it SW Asian. But that's not right. It's not true SW Asian. It's inflated SW Asian. So why consider percentages that are not true percentages? No calculator or study on this earth produces 20% SW Asian scores for a European.

SW Asian should not be based on farmers from the Levant, it should be from the Arabian peninsula, SW Asian is Bedouin, not Levantine. This SW Asian is either inflated and shouldn't be or it's set too high. Otherwise, it's giving false percentages.

[Sikeliot]

"Southwest Asian" of K12b for example is totally Arabian fixated as you see on the percentages.

Saudis 68%
Samaritans (the Levantines with the highest percentage) 32%

Saudis have more than twice as much. So this component is really Arabian.


However Southwest Asian of Globe 13

Saudis 65%
Samaritans 41%

That one is more of an Southeastern Levantine specific component.

Hence why it's much higher for Europeans in K13, all of them.

[Isleño]

"Southwest Asian" of K12b for example is totally Arabian fixated as you see on the percentages.

Saudis 68%
Samaritans (the Levantines with the highest percentage) 32%

Saudis have more than twice as much. So this component is really more like "Arabian" farmer


However Southwest Asian of Globe 13

Saudis 65%
Samaritans 41%

That one is more of a Southeastern Levantine specific component.

Yeah, it's set to use a different type of reference population for SW Asian. But that's not what SW Asian is usually based on, it's based on Bedouins and that element. So of course it's giving jacked up percentages, it's set to be based on the wrong reference populations. SW Asian is always Bedouin. Wtf was he thinking to do that?

[Demhat]

However I think the thread was about total "European" DNA

And in that case, Globe_13 is the best in my opinion anyways

[Demhat]

Yeah, it's set to use a different type of reference population for SW Asian. But that's not what SW Asian is usually based on, it's based on Bedouins and that element. So of course it's giving jacked up percentages, it's set to be based on the wrong reference populations. SW Asian is always Bedouin. Wtf was he thinking to do that?

Southwest Asian actually is a differen't label for West Asia in general, but you are right since Dienekes used "Southwest Asian" as synonym for Arabians for many years it confuses many people.

Let's call it simply Southeast Levantine among ourselves and everything is fine :D

In reality it is even Southeast levantine and probably migrated to Arabia from there.

[Isleño]

Hence why it's much higher for Europeans in K13, all of them.
Basically he's saying that the SW Asian in globe_13 is set to be based on Levantine like populations as the SW Asian component. But usually in every study and calculator I've ever seen, it's based on Bedouins in Arabia. So the problem is the component itself in globe_13 is not the SW Asian we know, so it's giving an altered result.

[Demhat]

Would anyone make a map using Globe_13 or should I do?

[Isleño]

Southwest Asian actually is a differen't label for West Asia in general, but you are right since Dienekes used "Southwest Asian" as synonym for Arabians it confuses many people.

Let's call it simply Southeast Levantine among ourselves and everything is fine :D

In reality it is even Southeast levantine and probably migrated to Arabia from there.
Well that's fine, but then we shouldn't treat it like SW Asian if it's really some sort of Levantine based component and not true SW Asian. That gets to the bottom of it. All the other components seem to be fine, that's the only gripe I have about globe_13. I've seen way too many studies and calculator results to know that Europeans don't get that high of SW Asian scores. So the problem has been found, it's not the SW Asian we know, so I won't treat it as such.

[Rugevit]

This map is based on NW European + Mediterranean + East-European .

This is a better representation as three components peak in three different regions of Europe.

[Isleño]

Would anyone make a map using Globe_13 or should I do?

Lol, only if you label the SW Asian something else like Levantine or something :lol:

We don't wanna throw anyone off into thinking they are 1/5 Bedouin.

[Sikeliot]

Compared to my 11%, a mainland Greek from Peloponnese scores the same amount, and an islander with one parent from Chios and the other Samos scores 14%.

[Isleño]

This is a better representation as three components peak in three different regions of Europe.

Yes, this is a good one, NW European+Mediterranean+East European. So simple and spot on for use.

[Isleño]

Compared to my 11%, a mainland Greek from Peloponnese scores the same amount, and an islander with one parent from Chios and the other Samos scores 14%.

11% what? SW Asian? We already established it's not really true SW Asian, so it's an altered result. It's like some sort of Levantine component with Mediterranean inside of it.

[Sikeliot]

11% what? SW Asian? We already established it's not really true SW Asian, so it's an altered result. It's like some sort of Levantine component with Mediterranean inside of it.

Whatever it is, I score the same amount as a Peloponnesian. Interesting to think about.

[Demhat]

Yes, this is a good one, NW European+Mediterranean+East European. So simple and spot on for use.


Nope because this one, treats Italians like half Middle Easterners while Iberians like more Euro than allot of Central and North Euros and is unfair for Southeast Europe also. We have considered this one but it get's as off as North Euro+Atlanto_Med.

[Isleño]

Nope because this one, treats Italians like half Middle Easterners while Iberians like more Euro than allot of Central and North Euros and is unfair for Southeast Europe also. We have considered this one but it get's as off as North Euro+Atlanto_Med.
How could that be if Iberians are scoring 47% Mediterranean in Dodecad? Sicilians only score 43% Mediterranean on the same admixture run, so how could it be treating Italians like half Middle Easterners and not do so to Iberians? Also, English get 22% Med and French get like 33%, so what about them? One quarter, or one-third Middle Easterners? Doesn't sound right.

[Sikeliot]

South Italians score high SW Asian compared to other South Euros on every calculator, but if SW Asian is overinflated, it portrays them as less European than other southerners by comparison.

Anyway, south Italians DO come up on calculators as half Lebanese, half Iberian.

[Isleño]

Whatever it is, I score the same amount as a Peloponnesian. Interesting to think about.

What do you score for SW Asian in contrast to Greeks on the normal calculators we use like Dodecad? Full Sicilians were scoring 9%-11% SW Asian, so you are half, so 4%-5%? Greeks were scoring like 7%-9% SW Asian.

[Demhat]

How could that be if Iberians are scoring 47% Mediterranean in Dodecad? Sicilians only score 43% Mediterranean on the same admixture run, so how could it be treating Italians like half Middle Easterners and not do so to Iberians? Also, English get 22% Med and French get like 33%, so what about them? One quarter, or one-third Middle Easterners? Doesn't sound right.


The map he is reffering to is this one of Dodecad v3. Italians score on average ~66%. And other regions are also off.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?152127-Map-of-European-Admixture-Based-on-K12b&p=3235250&viewfull=1#post3235250

[Isleño]

South Italians score high SW Asian compared to other South Euros on every calculator, but if SW Asian is overinflated, it portrays them as less European than other southerners by comparison.

Anyway, south Italians DO come up on calculators as half Lebanese, half Iberian.
Yeah, but Sicilians don't have SW Asian scores like we were seeing on that inflated score. Out of all the Europeans, Sicilians have the most admixture, yes. But it's not like they are some half Levantine people. They are Mediterraneans similar to Greek Islanders in their prehistory and were inundated with Greek blood throughout history, so they have the signatures of others in the Eastern Mediterranean, near them namely Greece. Doesn't mean they are some half Levantine people.

[Sikeliot]

What do you score for SW Asian in contrast to Greeks on the normal calculators we use like Dodecad? Full Sicilians were scoring 9%-11% SW Asian, so you are half, so 4%-5%? Greeks were scoring like 7%-9% SW Asian.

I usually score 7%, which is the low for mainland Greeks, with a high of 9%.

[Sikeliot]

Yeah, but Sicilians don't have SW Asian scores like we were seeing on that inflated score. Out of all the Europeans, Sicilians have the most admixture, yes. But it's not like they are some half Levantine people. They are Mediterraneans similar to Greek Islanders in their prehistory and were inundated with Greek blood throughout history, so they have the signatures of others in the Eastern Mediterranean, near them namely Greece. Doesn't mean they are some half Levantine people.

They don't have half Levantine ancestry, no. But they are the genetic equivalent of a modern day Spaniard or north Italian having a child with a modern Lebanese.

[Demhat]

I am currently making a map based on Globe_13

[Demhat]

Yeah, but Sicilians don't have SW Asian scores like we were seeing on that inflated score. Out of all the Europeans, Sicilians have the most admixture, yes. But it's not like they are some half Levantine people. They are Mediterraneans similar to Greek Islanders in their prehistory and were inundated with Greek blood throughout history, so they have the signatures of others in the Eastern Mediterranean, near them namely Greece. Doesn't mean they are some half Levantine people.


Yes but it's not about the "Southwest Asian" score here. The Sicilians might appear more Levantine but so do all and at the end it is more fair. While in The West Euro/East Euro/Med map. And it is not wrong at all since Levantine genes are strong in Europe since Neolithic. Italians appear like 20% less Euro than Iberians. And even Russians up to 10% less Heck no one with a straight face could say that this is true.

The map of Dodecad v3 is VERY West European biased. It could be called who is the most West European. Than we could agree :)

[Isleño]

The map he is reffering to is this one of Dodecad v3. Italians score on average ~66%. And other regions are also off.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?152127-Map-of-European-Admixture-Based-on-K12b&p=3235250&viewfull=1#post3235250
I have Dodecad V3, that's the K12 I was speaking about earlier in contrast to the K12b. Sicilians score 43% Mediterranean. You are getting 66% because you are adding the 23% West Asian they score, but Italy, Greece and the Balkans all score high in West Asian, so it's a component found among Europeans. But it's silly for it to make them half Middle Eastern because of that. because Middle Easterns are not scoring twice the 43% Med found in Siclians and 41% found in Greeks. So that calculation is bogus. But I do think the categories could be used wisely if done right.

[Demhat]

I have to go now, let's wait for my Globe_13 map and you will see how perfectly it fits the reality better.

[Isleño]

They don't have half Levantine ancestry, no. But they are the genetic equivalent of a modern day Spaniard or north Italian having a child with a modern Lebanese.

That's called intermediate though, not half Levantine. North Africans are not half European/half East African, you know what I'm saying? Intermediate just means they plot in between.

[Demhat]

I have Dodecad V3, that's the K12 I was speaking about earlier in contrast to the K12b. Sicilians score 43% Mediterranean. You are getting 66% because you are adding the 23% West Asian they score, but Italy, Greece and the Balkans all score high in West Asian, so it's a component found among Europeans. But it's silly for it to make them half Middle Eastern because of that. because Middle Easterns are not scoring twice the 43% Med found in Siclians and 41% found in Greeks. So that calculation is bogus. But I do think the categories could be used wisely if done right.


And that's exactly the point. the West Euro/East Euro/Med map does not take West Asian into consideration. And you said you agree that this map is better. So I thought you agree with Italians beeing far less Euro. :D

Let's wait for my map and you will see, you will like it. I am not going to mention any "Levantine" or other genes. Since it is impossible to divide into "European" and "West Asian" genes, because at the end of the day allot of components could be considered as both. THe Med component ultimately originates in the Levant and South Anatolia too.

But we are talking about the genes which are nowadays relevant for Europeans. So I will make a map based on Globe_13 North Euro, Med and West Asian components.

[Isleño]

I have to go now, let's wait for my Globe_13 map and you will see how perfectly it fits the reality better.

What are you going to call the "SW Asian"?

[Isleño]

And that's exactly the point. the West Euro/East Euro/Med map does not take West Asian into consideration. And you said you agree that this map is better. So I thought you agree with Italians beeing far less Euro. :D

Let's wait for my map and you will see, you will like it.
Italians are less Euro than others such as Britain per say, because Brits don't score 6% SW Asian, but not because of the West Asian. West Asian is found in many European countries. But doesn't mean Italians are like some mixed race people, no they are Europeans, but of the Southern variety.

[Sikeliot]

That's called intermediate though, not half Levantine. North Africans are not half European/half East African, you know what I'm saying? Intermediate just means they plot in between.

It means they are close to half Paleolithic South Euro, half Neolithic East Med.

[Isleño]

And that's exactly the point. the West Euro/East Euro/Med map does not take West Asian into consideration. And you said you agree that this map is better. So I thought you agree with Italians beeing far less Euro. :D

Let's wait for my map and you will see, you will like it. I am not going to mention any "Levantine" or other genes. Since it is impossible to divide into "European" and "West Asian" genes, because at the end of the day allot of components could be considered as both. THe Med component ultimately originates in the Levant and South Anatolia too.

But we are talking about the genes which are nowadays relevant for Europeans. So I will make a map based on Globe_13 North Euro, Med and West Asian components.

Make the map, let me know when you do it.

And yes, Med component originates in the Levant/Anatolia originally. It's found pretty much in most all Europeans ranging from high to low. It had 10,000 years to evolve and adapt in Europe and it did, even mixing with Mesolithic Europeans who originally came from the east as well, but much earlier.

[Isleño]

It means they are close to half Paleolithic South Euro, half Neolithic East Med.That's a better way to put it :) And as you know, those groups don't exist anymore as specific populations, only as admixture, since neither of them were the genetically same as their geographical replacements.

[Sikeliot]

And Greeks would be close to the same, just with an extra 10% North Euro.

Some islanders even have the extra North Euro, but not all.

[SSlava]

interestingly

[Not a Cop]

arent there other med components too ?



then you arent by a long shot

mong etc :D

those people you call wogs and non european civilized you albino mongs :P :lol:

Well only component that we can for shure call European is North-East Euro, WHG, Baltic, you get my point, rest components are very debatable.


It means they are close to half Paleolithic South Euro, half Neolithic East Med.

Not really.

[SSlava]

interestingly

[Desaix DeBurgh]

I have two, one counting Atlantic-Med and North European as "European" and the second counting those two + Caucasus as European components

I hope no one gets offended, this is straight from the K12b spreadsheet

First
http://i.imgur.com/T2Df1za.png
http://i.imgur.com/7CnN9At.png

WTF dude !!?? You included subsumed Scotland into England and called Scotland England ?

[Isleño]

Yes but it's not about the "Southwest Asian" score here. The Sicilians might appear more Levantine but so do all and at the end it is more fair. While in The West Euro/East Euro/Med map. And it is not wrong at all since Levantine genes are strong in Europe since Neolithic. Italians appear like 20% less Euro than Iberians. And even Russians up to 10% less Heck no one with a straight face could say that this is true.

The map of Dodecad v3 is VERY West European biased. It could be called who is the most West European. Than we could agree :)
How are Italians 20% less Euro than Spaniards? They are about the same in European percentage. What is "European" anyway? Well it seems to be a mixture of Mesolithic European, West Asian and Neolithic Mediterranean in any percentage. So where does that leave us? Counting percentages that are not one of those. That leaves us with counting the SW Asian and Northwest African in Southern Euros and and Siberian in Northern Euros. Spain has about 2%-17% Northwest African on average and about 2%-5% SW Asian vs Italy has about 3%-12% SW Asian on average and 0%-4% Northwest African on average. Looks like Spain is actually a tad bit more exotic by about 6%.

So how is Italy 20% less European than Spain? Spain and Italy are about even and are just as European as each other. If you were counting the West Asian, that's actually a familiar component in many European populations and I'd say is in the European formula of Mesolithic Euro, Neolithic Med and West Asian that's found in most Europeans to some degree.

[Highlands]

It should be called "mesolithic" admixture or something. European admixture sounds misleading.

[alfieb]

I'am really surprise by the sicilian result in the first map 41.7%

Don't be.

[Tiberio]

Ehm ehm wrong percentages in some italians.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

Sicilian: Atlanto Med+North European=41,9%
Atlanto Med+North Euro+Caucasian=78,4%

Central italian: Atlanto Med+North Euro 51,9%
Atlanto Med+North Euro+Caucasian=84%

South italian-sicilian: Atlanto Med+North Euro=41,7%
Atlanto Med+North Euro+Caucasian=78,2%

Please modify those percentages.

[Demhat]

Mistake

[Demhat]

How are Italians 20% less Euro than Spaniards? They are about the same in European percentage. What is "European" anyway?

My friend thats exactly what I am trying to tell you. This is why the West Euro/East Euro/Med map is not accurate.

As promised here is the map based on Globe_13 Total North European/Mediterranean/West Asian.

http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/europe8du1gprca32j08.png


For Blank countries (Belgium as example) I had no data.

My own intepretation of the results are as followed
Populations 80% upwards can be considered as Europeans

Populations with percentage ranging from 45% to 79% can be considered close to Europeans but are not Europeans

Populations below 45% are neither "Europeans" nor "Euro like".

[Bell Beaker]

Why Spaniards in general always show more European Admixture than Portuguese? Portuguese and Spaniards are part of the same Group......

[Demhat]

Why Spaniards in general always show more European Admixture than Portuguese? Portuguese and Spaniards are part of the same Group......
Don't aks me bro, I have no clue.

No matter which I look at Spaniards usually score slightly more European than Portuguese do. But it's still just few percentages. A population can genetically be slightly more European but still look less. What is European is still in the eye of the beholder. For example Finns have slightly "less" European than both North Italians and Spaniards. But do they also look less European?

Genetics do not collerate 100% with looks.

[Bell Beaker]

Don't aks me bro, I have no clue.

No matter which I look at Spaniards usually score slightly more European than Portuguese do. But it's still just few percentages. A population can genetically be slightly more European but still look less. What is European is still in the eye of the beholder. For example Belarussians have "less" European than both North Italians and Spaniards. But do they also look less European?

Genetics do not collerate 100% with looks.

Yeah but i dont understand. Maybe the numbers of Samples is somewhat low at Portugueses, meanwhile it must be higher on Spain due the Regions in Spain to study. Specially Basque Country and Catalunya.

[Demhat]

Yeah but i dont understand. Maybe the numbers of Samples is somewhat low at Portugueses, meanwhile it must be higher on Spain due the Regions in Spain to study. Specially Basque Country and Catalunya.

Possibility is there that the Spaniard samples are mostly from North.

[Styrian Mujo]

I agree with the first map.

[Hadouken]

My friend thats exactly what I am trying to tell you. This is why the West Euro/East Euro/Med map is not accurate.

As promised here is the map based on Globe_13 Total North European/Mediterranean/West Asian.

http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/europe8du1t517qpkjy6.png


For Blank countries (Belgium as example) I had no data.

Populations 80% upwards can be considered as Europeans

Populations with percentage ranging from 45% to 79% can be considered close to Europeans but are not Europeans

Populations below 45% are neither "Europeans" nor "Euro like".

is the west asian component even a european component ?

also which kind of Med are we talking about here

and on what do you base the categories like 80% + can be considered european etc. ?

[Demhat]

is the west asian component even a european component ?

also which kind of Med are we talking about here

and on what do you base the categories like 80% + can be considered european etc. ?
Which components would you consider as "European". The Neolithic Mediterranean which came from the Levant? or the partly Amerindian shifted North European?

West Asian is a significant part of the European genome, it came during Bronze Age with Indo Europeans and other herding populations.. If you don't count it, you will have populations like Southeast Europeans, and Italians appear 30% less European than other. And North Europeans significantly less European than Southwest Europeans.


and on what do you base the categories like 80% + can be considered european etc. ?

Thats based on my own opinion and the fact that all populations who scored below 80% would be considered as non European by the majority of people here.
Or do you consider Turks, Lebanese, Iranians, Kurds and Armenians, North Africans as Europeans?

Somewhere I had to draw a line and I thought 20+% is enough non European DNA to make someone look "borderline".

[Hadouken]

Which components would you consider as "European". The Neolithic Mediterranean which came from the Levant? or the partly Amerindian shifted North European?

West Asian is a significant part of the European genome. If you don't count it, you will have populations like Southeast Europeans, and Italians appear 30% less European than other.



Thats based on my own opinion and the fact that all populations who scored below 80% would be considered as non European by the majority of people here.

this is very confusing to me tbh. :lol:

[Demhat]

this is very confusing to me tbh. :lol:

Well ok :D

See it that way People below 80% are groups who are considered as non Europeans. 20+% is enough "non European" admixture to make one look on average different enough.

[Gaston]

A lot of arbitrary maps, based on nothing but subjective choices.

The only "European"-specific component is the Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) one, best represented by mesolithic hunter-gatherer Loschbour from Luxembourg.

On a shitty and not very accurate map I just made in 5 minutes, European admixture looks like this:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=53291&d=1418999614

53291

[askra]

My friend thats exactly what I am trying to tell you. This is why the West Euro/East Euro/Med map is not accurate.

As promised here is the map based on Globe_13 Total North European/Mediterranean/West Asian.

http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/europe8du1ozm613xa7p.png


For Blank countries (Belgium as example) I had no data.

My own intepretation of the results are as followed
Populations 80% upwards can be considered as Europeans

Populations with percentage ranging from 45% to 79% can be considered close to Europeans but are not Europeans

Populations below 45% are neither "Europeans" nor "Euro like".

Welcome back Dehmat, the middle eastern wannabe european!

Is that a correct map by Globe_13?

here there is the link to globe_13
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FTCC6UyauUeBhPrA9aHzr7DLEnVq5q-wnTsfpe2a9Jg/edit?pli=1#gid=24


Some examples:
Total north european/mediterranean/west asian admixture

Sardinians: 91,2%

Georgians: 85,5

Without the west asian component

Sardinians: 87,1

Georgians: 28,2%

[Tiberio]

Chissà come mai mettono sempre qualche percentuale in meno solo agli italiani eh?hanno fatto lo stesso con la Sicilia inizialmente.

[wvwvw]

Welcome back Dehmat, the middle eastern wannabe european!

Is that a correct map by Globe_13?

here there is the link to globe_13
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FTCC6UyauUeBhPrA9aHzr7DLEnVq5q-wnTsfpe2a9Jg/edit?pli=1#gid=24


Some examples:
Total north european/mediterranean/west asian admixture

Sardinians: 91,2%

Georgians: 85,5

Without the west asian component

Sardinians: 87,1

Georgians: 28,2%

The question is why are you posting fake maps?

Did you bother to read Dehmat's previous posts? The West Asian is a componment present in many European populations and he explained why. Get off your high horse, you are not more European than Eastern Europeans including Georgians, you are simply more Western European.

[Mars06]

My own intepretation of the results are as followed
Populations 80% upwards can be considered as Europeans

Populations with percentage ranging from 45% to 79% can be considered close to Europeans but are not Europeans

Populations below 45% are neither "Europeans" nor "Euro like".

With my admixture, this would put me at only around 94% European.

I mean, damn, only 1% more European than the Spanish? Those swarthy, brown-eyed, black-haired, Spaniards? Damn. That's pretty harsh.

[askra]

Did you bother to read Dehmat's previous posts? The West Asian is a componment present in many European populations and he explained why. Get off your high horse, you are not more European than Eastern Europeans including Georgians, you are simply more Western European.

And so? he has created a fake map, this explains his clear bad faith.


I am currently making a map based on Globe_13

He has deliberately removed a 10% of european admixture in sardinians, so he can't lie saying that has created that map on the basis of Globe_13 (because the results are very different), and he can't say to have committed a mistake because his agenda is well known in anthroboards since years.

Globe_13
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FTCC6UyauUeBhPrA9aHzr7DLEnVq5q-wnTsfpe2a9Jg/edit?pli=1#gid=24

[Vasconcelos]

There is no way Sardinians are "borderline" European.

[wvwvw]

And so? he has created a fake map, this explains his clear bad faith.



He has deliberately removed a 10% of european admixture in sardinians, so he can't lie saying that has created that map on the basis of Globe_13 (because the results are very different), and he can't say to have committed a mistake because his agenda is well known in anthroboards since years.

Globe_13
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FTCC6UyauUeBhPrA9aHzr7DLEnVq5q-wnTsfpe2a9Jg/edit?pli=1#gid=24

His map makes sense because he takes into account Eastern Europe. If he took out the West Asian componment from Sicilians, Greeks, Albanians, Central Italians, Bulgarians and even Russians and other populations, Eastern Europe appears much less European.

He explained in previous pages why the West Asian componment is not an alien componment but closely related to the Northern European componment. He also explained that even the Mediterranean componment originally came from the same source.

Sardinians are not less borderline population than Greeks, Albanians, Sicilians or Bulgarians, they are simply more Western European.

I don't think Dehmat is a wanna be European, after all it makes sense that Georgians, Kurds, Turks, Syrians, the Lebanese and the like are more European-like populations rather than Beduin-like.

[Siberia62]

My friend thats exactly what I am trying to tell you. This is why the West Euro/East Euro/Med map is not accurate.

As promised here is the map based on Globe_13 Total North European/Mediterranean/West Asian.

http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/europe8du1ozm613xa7p.png


For Blank countries (Belgium as example) I had no data.

My own intepretation of the results are as followed
Populations 80% upwards can be considered as Europeans

Populations with percentage ranging from 45% to 79% can be considered close to Europeans but are not Europeans

Populations below 45% are neither "Europeans" nor "Euro like".

I've always said that the Irish are the "Whitest" Europeans there are. Because they are more distant to every other non-Euro group than other European peoples.

As for the maps from the OP....I checked my Dodecad K12b and my maternal grandmothers....

I get 69% North European + Atlantic Med and my Grandmother gets 80% North European + Atlantic Med. Bearing in mind she is 1/8 Italian and I'm 1/4 AJ which probably comes from multiple great grandparents, as I do not have a fully Jewish grandparent.

I don't rate Dodecad though, so maps from Eurogenes would be more reliable imo.

[wvwvw]

There is no way Sardinians are "borderline" European.
But it doesn't make sense either to make f.ex Bulgarians, Romanians or Russians less European than Sardinians.

[Demhat]

And so? he has created a fake map, this explains his clear bad faith.



He has deliberately removed a 10% of european admixture in sardinians, so he can't lie saying that has created that map on the basis of Globe_13 (because the results are very different), and he can't say to have committed a mistake because his agenda is well known in anthroboards since years.

Globe_13
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FTCC6UyauUeBhPrA9aHzr7DLEnVq5q-wnTsfpe2a9Jg/edit?pli=1#gid=24

The only thing I see is a butthurt who rather lives with the lie of beeing "more Euro" than Russians, and a dozen other Europeans, than accepting that Sardinians are not the heart of "Europeaness". Tell me that you can go towards other People like Germans or Russians and can say with a straight face that they are less Europeans than you and I will accept your concerns.

Did you know that Sardinians are the best modern proxy of Neolithic farmers which left the Near East. And you are suprised of Sardinians scoring? We are not in the 2010's anymore were people thought Mediterranean component is some kind of Paleolithic cave component.

[Vasconcelos]

But it doesn't make sense either to make f.ex Bulgarians, Romanians or Russians less European than Sardinians.

We'd have to define what's European. In my prespective, aren't Sardinians the closest population to EEFs? If they are borderline Euros, then a lot of "newer" populations would have to be left out (regardless of these maps)...which is silly.

[Demhat]

We'd have to define what's European. In my prespective, aren't Sardinians the closest population to EEFs? If they are borderline Euros, then a lot of "newer" populations would have to be left out (regardless of these maps)...which is silly.
What makes EEF more European than Bronze Age Indo European genes?

The point is that Europeans are the result of Mediterranean, West Asian and North European component. The fact that Sardinians come shorter on this is an unfortune fact. It's not like they look "uber European" in comparison to others. So I don't get the hate. 81% is European.

[Demhat]

Welcome back Dehmat, the middle eastern wannabe european!

Is that a correct map by Globe_13?

here there is the link to globe_13
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FTCC6UyauUeBhPrA9aHzr7DLEnVq5q-wnTsfpe2a9Jg/edit?pli=1#gid=24


Are you completely lost in your "European" rage lol. The spreadsheet you linked is not globe 13 but world9. Two completely different calculators.

But ok we all know Russians are like Arabs in comparison to Sardinians :D

[Gaston]

It is worth emphasizing Basques are as European as any Northern European except Balts/Estonians who are the most.

[Demhat]

Here is the new map. Hope this one is more of your taste Askra :D
http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/europe8du1dym9ud2f0sx.png

[askra]

Globe_13

http://dodecad.blogspot.it/2012/10/globe13-calculator.html

[Demhat]

His map doesn't make sense if he attribute it to studies that show total different results.

I don't care anything if west asia is european or not,
i have shown that Dehmat has removed a 10% of european admixture in Sardinians, in that map.

He attributed the map to Globe_13, as i said in the previous posts the sum of northern european + mediterranean + west asian admixture in sardinians is 91,2% not 81%, like shown in the map created by him.

It's not the first time that he is trying to make pass some european populations as less europeans than kurds, caucasians, etc...

This is all.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FTCC6UyauUeBhPrA9aHzr7DLEnVq5q-wnTsfpe2a9Jg/edit?pli=1#gid=24


Less than Kurds? Since when is 75% more than 81% :D

Dude what you don't understand is that the Spredsheat you are linking us to is World9 and not Globe13. Its even in the name for Gods Sake :D

But ok, chill I already correct the Sardinian percentage. If you feel that uncomfortable about 81% European. You will get a hard attack when you see the Lazaridis and Mal'ta papers where Sardinians are shown as 50% "Middle Eastern" :D

[Gaston]

Sardinians are more like 66% Near Eastern, 33% European (Western Hunter-Gatherer) and 1% or less African.

[wvwvw]

Less than Kurds? Since when is 75% more than 81% :D

Dude what you don't understand is that the Spredsheat you are linking us to is World9 and not Globe13. Its even in the name for Gods Sake :D

But ok, chill I already correct the Sardinian percentage. If you feel that uncomfortable about 81% European. You will get a hard attack when you see the Lazaridis and Mal'ta papers where Sardinians are shown as 50% "Middle Eastern" :D


Sardinians are Europeans but their genes are Southern (Just like S.Italians and Greeks) meaning they have less of the Northern European componment than other Europeans, which makes them borderline by default.

Although we all look different from Kurds who are a Middle Eastern population, or Caucasian Georgians, pigmentation wise there isn't an enormous difference, because the West Asian in Georgians and Kurds contain Northern European componments.

However they have other non-European componments that gives them their own distinct look. If Kurds didn't have that much West Asian they'd probably look like Gulf Arabs. ;)

[askra]

Here is the new map. Hope this one is more of your taste Askra :D
http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/europe8du1dym9ud2f0sx.png


this is better for your taste:
http://i.imgur.com/y4Zj096.jpg

[Demhat]

bro just give me one reason why from all European population I should have a bias against Sardinians. It was just an unfortunate surprise that they scored 81%. Any other Europeans scored perfectly fine.

[wvwvw]

this is better for your taste:
http://i.imgur.com/y4Zj096.jpg

The Middle Eastern ethnicities, may not be European but they are related to both Eastern Europeans and all Southern Europeans. There is a continuum from Europe to the Middle East. As far as Kurds are concerned they speak an Indo-European language so it makes sense that they are more European-like than other Middle Easterners, if you look at their genetics.

[Demhat]

If you want i will change the sardinian score and replace them with the world9 percentage.

[Gaston]

The Middle Eastern ethnicities, may not be European but they are related to both Eastern Europeans and all Southern Europeans. There is a continuum from Europe to the Middle East. As far as Kurds are concerned they speak an Indo-European language so it makes sense that they are more European-like than other Middle Easterners, if you look at their genetics.

It's actually not true, Indo-European doesn't correlate with European ancestry but more with Ancient North Eurasian ancestry. Kurds are between 0 to 3% at best European while Levantines are between 4 and 7%. Iranians are 0-1% European.

[askra]

If you are speaking about a different study, impossible to find with google (link us please), why do the sum of northern european + mediterranean + west asian component in the europeans populations (except for sardinians) in the map you created is the same of the study i linked in the previous posts, that you are saying is not the same globe_13???

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FTCC6UyauUeBhPrA9aHzr7DLEnVq5q-wnTsfpe2a9Jg/edit?pli=1#gid=24

http://dodecad.blogspot.it/2012/10/globe13-calculator.html

Very weird.

[Demhat]

I am currently not at home. I will give you the link to the globe 13 spredsheat yourself

@gaston you probably mean european admixture from middle ages. in that case you are completely right. But what crank means is the percentages we took together are all genes which correlate with euros and stem from mesolithic to current time.

[Hadouken]

Sardinians are Europeans but their genes are Southern (Just like S.Italians and Greeks) meaning they have less of the Northern European componment than other Europeans, which makes them borderline by default.

Although we all look different from Kurds who are a Middle Eastern population, or Caucasian Georgians, pigmentation wise there isn't an enormous difference, because the West Asian in Georgians and Kurds contain Northern European componments.

However they have other non-European componments that gives them their own distinct look. If Kurds didn't have that much West Asian they'd probably look like Gulf Arabs. ;)

no because Gulf Arabs have more Red Sea and some also have SSA

[askra]

I am currently not at home. I will give you the link to the globe 13 spredsheat yourself

@gaston you probably mean recent european admixture from middle ages. in that case you are rigjt. But the percentages we took together are all genes which correlate with euros and stem from nesolithic to current time.

do you need the time to create a spreadsheet, like you did with the map?

[Gaston]

@gaston you probably mean recent european admixture from middle ages. in that case you are rigjt. But the percentages we took together are all genes which correlate with euros and stem from nesolithic to current time.

No, Lebanese Christians, an endogamous group that is very Arabian-like for its geography (more Arabian than Lebanese Muslims) score also 6% Western-Hunter Gatherers. It could be genuine mesolithic European ancestry or something very WHG-like, maybe pre-WHG (ancestral to it).

[wvwvw]

Which components would you consider as "European". The Neolithic Mediterranean which came from the Levant? or the partly Amerindian shifted North European?

West Asian is a significant part of the European genome, it came during Bronze Age with Indo Europeans and other herding populations.. If you don't count it, you will have populations like Southeast Europeans, and Italians appear 30% less European than other. And North Europeans significantly less European than Southwest Europeans.



Thats based on my own opinion and the fact that all populations who scored below 80% would be considered as non European by the majority of people here.
Or do you consider Turks, Lebanese, Iranians, Kurds and Armenians, North Africans as Europeans?

Somewhere I had to draw a line and I thought 20+% is enough non European DNA to make someone look "borderline".

Imo you correctly drew the borderline at Sicilians, Sardinians, Greeks and Georgians. These places are geographically borderline Europe but also genetically have the least Northern European.

After that Levantines, Kurds, Turks etc are not Europeans, they have significantly less of the other componments that are common to other Europeans, i.e Northern European and Mediterranean. Still Caucasus people are very much related to Europeans, and even the Kalash and some Afgani tribes are.

Georgians are borderline Europeans because they have enough Northern European componment in addition to their West Asian and low South-West Asian.

[Demhat]

do you need the time to create a spreadsheet, like you did with the map?
Bro you are far too butthurt about a simple map.

[askra]

Bro you are far too butthurt about a simple map.

Don't try this kind pf projection with me, i know you too well and know every single your posts here in the Apricity and in anthroscape, i know perfectly that you are an inferiority complexed 3rd worlder, northern european wannabe.

[Gaston]

Georgians are one of the least European-like people of Western Asians, in line with Kurds for instance, and completely different from Northern Caucasians who are 6 to 10% European.

[Demhat]

globe13 spredsheed. this was the last calculator dienekes brought out. since you were so outrages about th sardinian score , i will use the world9 data for sardinians

globe13
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9kaU E&f=true&noheader=false&gid=2

[wvwvw]

Georgians are one of the least European-like people of Western Asians, in line with Kurds for instance, and completely different from Northern Caucasians who are 6 to 10% European.

That's not the impression I get. Although some look clearly Central Asian and Middle Eastern, many look like Northern Caucassians and visibly more lighter pigmented than Kurds, possibly because they have less Gedrosia or S.Asian than Kurds.

[wvwvw]

Georgians are one of the least European-like people of Western Asians, in line with Kurds for instance, and completely different from Northern Caucasians who are 6 to 10% European.

But they score some 10% Northern European

[Sikeliot]

He had to draw the line at 80% lest we have angry Italic Roots members..

[Demhat]

Georgians are one of the least European-like people of Western Asians, in line with Kurds for instance, and completely different from Northern Caucasians who are 6 to 10% European.
thats so cometely wrong. I as a Kurd aay. no way are Georgians on line with us. You mus have never seen a Georgian or North Caucasian personally.

[Demhat]

No, Lebanese Christians, an endogamous group that is very Arabian-like for its geography (more Arabian than Lebanese Muslims) score also 6% Western-Hunter Gatherers. It could be genuine mesolithic European ancestry or something very WHG-like, maybe pre-WHG (ancestral to it).
from my knowledge neither lebanese muslims, nore Christians score any WHG. WHG is very sparse in all of thre middle east. the highest score iranians and north caucasians. as far as i know levantines score even negative for whg.

[wvwvw]

from my knowledge neither lebanese muslims, nore Christians score any WHG. WHG is very sparse in all of thre middle east. the highest score iranians and north caucasians. as far as i know levantines score even negative for whg.

They do score some 5% Northern European and they also share the Atlanto-Med componment with Southern Europeans while the Kurds and Iranians share more with Northern Europeans via their higher % of West Asian.

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Lebanese_5751.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Iranian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Northern-Caucasian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Georgian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Iberian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Sardinian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Greek_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Tuscan_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_African-American_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Western-Indian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Eastern-Indian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Northern-Indian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/populations_Chinese_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/populations_Japanese_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Altaian_575.png

[Demhat]

guys look. West Asian is the closest component to North European from all the other. West Asian is a substantial part off European genetic landscape.West Asian+North European+ Mediterranean combined Geprgians score significantly higher than any near eastern population. Be it Kurda or Levantines. No one reaches them. genetic can differ from phenotype slightly. But not in such obvious cases.

[Not a Cop]

It is worth emphasizing Basques are as European as any Northern European except Balts/Estonians who are the most.

I'm actually curious about it, what is this WesEurasian K8?

[Demhat]

They do score some 5% Northern European and they also share the Atlanto-Med componment with Southern Europeans while the Kurds and Iranians share more with Northern Europeans via their higher % of West Asian.

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Lebanese_5751.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Iranian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Sardinian_575.png

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/populations_Greek_575.png

notable here Southwest Asian=West Asian. as i said Southwest Asian is actiually a synonym for West Asian :) and shouldn't be taken as synonym for Arabian. The majority of this Southwest Asian component is actually. West Asian

[Shepherd]

WTF dude !!?? You included subsumed Scotland into England and called Scotland England ?

lol no man, there was just no Scottish measurements on the spreadsheet

there was Orkneys though, and they scored like the same as Irish

[Shepherd]

However they have other non-European componments that gives them their own distinct look

Georgians have hardly any non-European components other than Gedrosia of course, but thats a weird one.

[Shepherd]

If you are speaking about a different study, impossible to find with google (link us please), why do the sum of northern european + mediterranean + west asian component in the europeans populations

i made one, its the second map in the OP
:)

[Shepherd]

Georgians are one of the least European-like people of Western Asians, in line with Kurds for instance, and completely different from Northern Caucasians who are 6 to 10% European.

in WHG certainly, but again it depends how look at it

[Black Wolf]

The thing is, with all of the DNA evidence all saying the same thing, southern Italians will eventually have to accept that they are a peripheral European group genetically, and that while genetically mostly European of course, they still plot on the edge of Europe alongside Greek islanders and Maltese.

Southern Italians are on the peripheral edge of Europe when it comes to genetics. They are extremely Southeastern shifted Europeans. The vast majority of their genes relate back to the first Neolithic farmers of the Fertile Crescent although they do have more European Mesolithic hunter-gatherer ancestry than say Anatolians do.

[Black Wolf]

If any of you actually want to see the true real genetic components that Europeans are made up of check out this spreadsheet. I will list the main ones below.

WHG (West European Hunter-Gatherer)
ANE (Ancient North Eurasian)
Near Eastern (Neolithic farmers)


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8pm8sVcHqceiNFJMO082kxaBF5ePr4__bAK05VQRFw/edit?pli=1#gid=1138248510

[Sehnsucht]

My friend thats exactly what I am trying to tell you. This is why the West Euro/East Euro/Med map is not accurate.

As promised here is the map based on Globe_13 Total North European/Mediterranean/West Asian.

http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/europe8du1ozm613xa7p.png


For Blank countries (Belgium as example) I had no data.

My own intepretation of the results are as followed
Populations 80% upwards can be considered as Europeans

Populations with percentage ranging from 45% to 79% can be considered close to Europeans but are not Europeans

Populations below 45% are neither "Europeans" nor "Euro like".

I want to know if I'm European or not. Could someone please run me on Globe 13?

[wvwvw]

I want to know if I'm European or not. Could someone please run me on Globe 13?

Since you are German chances you are European are small :p

[Shepherd]

If any of you actually want to see the true real genetic components that Europeans are made up of check out this spreadsheet. I will list the main ones below.

WHG (West European Hunter-Gatherer)
ANE (Ancient North Eurasian)
Near Eastern (Neolithic farmers)


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8pm8sVcHqceiNFJMO082kxaBF5ePr4__bAK05VQRFw/edit?pli=1#gid=1138248510

Interesting.

Abkhazians and Sicilians are scoring the same on that except that Abkazians have .2 ANE and insignificant WHG while its vice versa with Sicilians. Both around 7 Near Eastern

[Demhat]

Well, that I am now at home, I had time to take a look at the Dodecad Globe13 data.

And I have to admit. Indeed Askra was right the Sardinian sample seem to have exactly 10% more European as I calculated.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2

The Sardinian sample is actually 91% and not 81%. I don't know how this could happen bu be sure that there was no intention in this.

This is the accurate map
http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/europe8du1gprca32j08.png


Legend

80 to 100% Can be considered as European
45 to 79% close genetic relatives to Europe but not Europeans themselves.
below 45% Other West Eurasian people.

[DanielJ1eH]

They are not European :bow00001:
..says the Finn

:picard1:

[SwampThing26]

Is the Globe13 calculator on Gedmatch?

[Demhat]

Is the Globe13 calculator on Gedmatch?

There should be. Globe13 and World are the same if I am not wrong.

[Demhat]

If any of you actually want to see the true real genetic components that Europeans are made up of check out this spreadsheet. I will list the main ones below.

WHG (West European Hunter-Gatherer)
ANE (Ancient North Eurasian)
Near Eastern (Neolithic farmers)


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8pm8sVcHqceiNFJMO082kxaBF5ePr4__bAK05VQRFw/edit?pli=1#gid=1138248510

That is actually the right way to go but still too deep into genetics for the average member here to understand. So Globe13 works well for most people.

[Black Wolf]

That is actually the right way to go but still too deep into genetics for the average member here to understand. So Globe13 works well for most people.

They need to read more lol.

[Demhat]

They need to read more lol.

I have seen people reading allot more, yet not having enough knowledge or understanding for the material.

[Black Wolf]

I have seen people reading allot more, yet not having enough knowledge or understanding for the material.

Yeah that is unfortunate.

[Dombra]

..says the Finn

:picard1:

What is the mist European? 3-7% Siberian with Over 90% European, like Finns?

Or less than 80% European like Italians?

[Sakis]

What is the mist European? 3-7% Siberian with Over 90% European, like Finns?

Or less than 80% European like Italians?

Siberian is not even caucasoid though.

[Damião de Góis]

Why Spaniards in general always show more European Admixture than Portuguese? Portuguese and Spaniards are part of the same Group......

Because they score more on Basque like components (named Atlantic in this case, or Atlantic Med in the run of the first post):

http://oi57.tinypic.com/2ldkhp2.jpg

We score closer results to western spaniards. Percentages will differ a bit in other components as well, but that one makes the most difference.

[Gaston]

That is actually the right way to go but still too deep into genetics for the average member here to understand. So Globe13 works well for most people.

It's not too deep, people are just lazy. You (and all others) choosing Globe13 over the most recent calculator that actually includes ancient DNA doesn't make sense at all. Globe13 makes components thanks to the degree of endogamy of modern populations = fake components which do not represent ancestral populations. While West_Eurasia_K8 avoids it thanks to less individuals per reference population (only the most outbred ones) and ancient DNA.



What is the mist European? 3-7% Siberian with Over 90% European, like Finns?

Or less than 80% European like Italians?

Finns are ~48% native mesolithic European hunter-gatherer, one of the most European population indeed. Italians range for ~20% in the south to around 34% in the North, the former being one of the least mesolithic Euro indeed and the latter in the range of Southern Europe like most of the Balkans and some parts of Iberia.