Why did British-English lose the "R" sound?

[Lenny]

As everyone knows, most North-Americans pronounce "r" at the ends of words whereas British-speakers don't.

Example:
FIREPOWER
British: Fiyah-powah
American: Figh-err-pow-err


Supposedly, in the early 1600s, 'standard' English in England had you pronouncing Rs. Shakespeare and King James would have prounounced Rs (so I'm told). [Thus, the old question about how George Washington's, Jefferson's, etc. accents would have sounded -- Would they have "sounded British"? I have been told that it's, ironically, the opposite: The British of the 1600s would've sounded more like Americans of today than Americans of the 1600s-1700s would've sounded like British of today! I don't see how this could be, but several very smart people have told me this]

What I do not understand is:
Why did pronunciation of the letter R drop-away in Britain itself? Why did it not do so among American settlers?

[Murphy]

As everyone knows, most North-Americans pronounce "r" at the ends of words whereas British-speakers don't.

I do.. everyone I know does.. please don't generalise.

[Fortis in Arduis]

The 'rrrrrr' is present in some British accents and dialects.

Perhaps a larger number of Americans derived from those regions.

That could be significant.

The British accent was also deliberately standardised towards the end of the 19th Century, by what came to be known as 'received pronounciation'.

This was deliberately effected through some schools.


It is the business of educated people to speak so that no-one may be able to tell in what county their childhood was passed.
A. Burrell, Recitation. A Handbook for Teachers in Public Elementary School, 1891.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation

[Lenny]

I do.. everyone I know does.. please don't generalise.
Not all North-Americans do, actually.

But generalization is possible.
The typical British person will say the word "poor" as "pu-ah" or "po-ah", whereas the typical American will say "pu-err".

(Actually most Americans tend to say the word as more like the word "pore", I find. Not me, though: I say "pu-err". I take after my mother [b.Connecticut] more linguistically, who also says "auhnt" and not "ant" for one's mother's sister...)

[Lenny]

The 'rrrrrr' is present in some British accents and dialects.
Yes, OK, but why did pronunciation of the "heavy"-R sound lose out in Britain and now only "some dialects" retain it? I understand that it was once predominant, and not anymore.


Maybe this is an unanswerable question. Why does any linguistic shift ever happen? Still, it's fascinating to me.

[Electronic God-Man]

The 'rrrrrr' is present in some British accents and dialects.

Perhaps a larger number of Americans derived from those regions.

That could be significant.

Which regions have the dialects that pronounce the R?

The English settlers were from all over really, but a majority in New England came from East Anglia.*

*Though I managed to get a whole lot from Somerset, Dorset, and Devon in my family as well...

[Fortis in Arduis]

Which regions have the dialects that pronounce the R?

The English settlers were from all over really, but a majority in New England came from East Anglia.*

*Though I managed to get a whole lot from Somerset, Dorset, and Devon in my family as well...

Norfolk has 'rrr', South-West England has 'rrr', much of Scotland has 'rrr' and so does Ireland.


RP is often believed to be based on the Southern accents of England, but in fact it has most in common with the Early Modern English dialects of the East Midlands. This was the most populated and most prosperous area of England during the 14th and 15th centuries. By the end of the 15th century, "Standard English" was established in the City of London.[13] A mixture of London speech with elements from East Midlands, Middlesex and Essex, became known as RP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Received_Pronunciation

RP still predominates in the media, but only 2% of the UK population actually uses it.

The 'City of London' refers to a small part of central London.

[Lenny]

I would add that all German accents I've ever heard shy away from pronouncing Rs, too.

"That costs ten Mark"
"Das kostet zehn Mark"
="Dah-ss kohs-tet tzehn Mah-k"


The opposite extreme is Spanish, where R is one of the strongest sounds (the famous "rolling R").

[Wulfhere]

American accents in general appear, to my ear at least, to be largely descended from the English accents of the South-West. Not only do both pronounce their r's quite prominently, but there are other similarities to, such as a tendency to prounce t's as d's, and s's as z's.

Conversely, the accents of Australia and New Zealand are descended from those of the South-East. Since the descent was a lot more recent, they're still a lot closer. I still sometimes have difficulty telling the difference between a Londoner and an Aussie.

[Lenny]

American accents in general appear, to my ear at least, to be largely descended from the English accents of the South-West.

The English settlers were from all over really, but a majority in New England came from East Anglia.
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/3157/eastanglia.gif

:mmmm:

[Wulfhere]

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/3157/eastanglia.gif

:mmmm:

Maybe that's true in some limited areas - and I suspect those areas of New England where East Anglians settled are among the few that don't pronounce their r's very much.

[Lenny]

Maybe that's true in some limited areas - and I suspect those areas of New England where East Anglians settled are among the few that don't pronounce their r's very much.
Southern-whites in the USA generally pronounce Rs less than Northern-whites do. Whites born in northern states will pronounce R every time, Southern-whites will do it just "most of the time".

Blacks and certain other nonwhite groups in the USA have the tendency to not pronounce 'R' at the ends of words very much at all. Black speech is very "relaxed" in all sorts of ways, and Puerto-Ricans and others mostly copied their style of speech. (The unfortunate result of which is Rosie Perez (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpJlNfS5EbI#t=00m32s):D)

[Beorn]

As everyone knows, most North-Americans pronounce "r" at the ends of words whereas British-speakers don't.

I nearly fell off my sofer when I read that. I damn well had to pur me a stiff drink for the shock. I even got the kidders offer d slider to show em.

[Liffrea]

Probably something to do with rhotic accents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotic_and_non-rhotic_accents

[Lenny]

Probably something to do with rhotic accents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotic_and_non-rhotic_accents
That's very informative, Thanks. I enjoyed perusing the article.

But, it doesn't tell us why "non-rhotic" [fiyah-powah] accents developed.

What we can see from that article is that all English-speakers at one time pronounced the R, but some in Britain itself began moving away from it for some unknown reason, centuries ago. By today, British speakers are almost all sayers of "fiyah-powah".








moving away from it for some unknown reason
:confused: :mmmm:

[Arne]

People often asked me why i do Pronounce the R ...
I am from a South German Pronouncing Background and they always roll the "R"..
Must be the Reason..
It makes me a lil bit different ;)

[Lenny]

People often asked me why i do Pronounce the R ...
I am from a South German Pronouncing Background and they always roll the "R"..
Must be the Reason..
It makes me a lil bit different ;)
I heard people there saying, "Buy-ahn", though, I think :confused: I could not hear a strong 'R'.

...Do you say "Buy-errn"?

(Bayern)

[Arne]

I heard people there saying, "Buy-ahn", though, I think :confused: I could not hear a strong 'R'.

...Do you say "Buy-errn"?

(Bayern)

It´s like buyeR´n..
In every word i do pronounce the R and never thought about it as i speak with my Parents..
My Sister raised up in this Area and she´s only average sounding.. ;)
This local area have even another Dialekt.
But i can´t speak it fully..

[Kanasyuvigi]

This discussion is pointless. You all don't pronounce the real RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :D
This is what I call real English : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf6qMXi5n4I :D:D:D

[Bloodeagle]

American English derives from 17th century British English. Virginia and Massachusetts, the “original” colonies, were settled mostly by people from the south of England, especially London. The mid Atlantic area -- Pennsylvania in particular -- was settled by people from the north and west of England and by the Scots-Irish (descendents of Scottish people who settled in Northern Ireland). These sources resulted in three dialect areas -- northern, southern, and midland. Over time, further dialects would develop.

The Boston area and the Richmond and Charleston areas maintained strong commercial -- and cultural -- ties to England, and looked to London for guidance as to what was “class” and what was not. So, as the London dialect of the upper classes changed, so did the dialects of the upper class Americans in these areas. For example, in the late 1700’s and early 1800’s, r-dropping spread from London to much of southern England, and to places like Boston and Virginia. New Yorkers, who looked to Boston for the latest fashion trends, adopted it early, and in the south, it spread to wherever the plantation system was. On the other hand, in Pennsylvania, the Scots-Irish, and the Germans as well, kept their heavy r’s.

[Wulfhere]

That's very informative, Thanks. I enjoyed perusing the article.

But, it doesn't tell us why "non-rhotic" [fiyah-powah] accents developed.

What we can see from that article is that all English-speakers at one time pronounced the R, but some in Britain itself began moving away from it for some unknown reason, centuries ago. By today, British speakers are almost all sayers of "fiyah-powah".








:confused: :mmmm:

Again, it is incorrect to assume that British speakers are "almost all" non-rhotic. The standard dialect of London is - what you tend to hear mostly on TV - but many dialects are rhotic.

Another weird thing is this - why can't Americans pronounce the short o in words like "on" or "god"?

[Osweo]

Rhotic England:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4534&stc=1&d=1272481711

I'm from just southeast of that island of it in the NorthWest, I'm afraid. :o

I heard an old woman doing it in a shop yesterday, here in Devon. Very curious. I half wondered if she was Dutch or something for a second.

All sorts of weird chance factors determine the incidence and spread of phonetic shifts. :shrug:

[Albion]

Oh for god sake!

There's nothing more annoying than an American trying to tell the English how to speak English.

Seriously we've been speaking and evolving our language for around 1000 years, why don't you leave it to the experts eh?


Besides, your not right. Only posh Londoners and Southerners speaker like that, but even most of them pronounce their R's.
If you ever come to England and travel about it, I mean really travel around the place (that means outside of London) then you'll understand there's a huge load of different dialects and accents.

Apparently English in its purest form is either a spoken in South West England, Australia or in the Northern English dialects, depending on who you believe.


English will continue to develop and telling people how they should and shouldn't speak it will lead to the language stagnating.
If Americans really care that much about their version then why don't they just claim their versions as a new language? That's basically what happened with Scots, everyone knows its just archaic Northern English, everyone that is apart from the Scots. It only exists as a language for nationalistic purposes and to preserve the strong dialects of Southern Scotland.

[Grey]

Not all North-Americans do, actually.

But generalization is possible.
The typical British person will say the word "poor" as "pu-ah" or "po-ah", whereas the typical American will say "pu-err".

(Actually most Americans tend to say the word as more like the word "pore", I find. Not me, though: I say "pu-err". I take after my mother [b.Connecticut] more linguistically, who also says "auhnt" and not "ant" for one's mother's sister...)

In the South we tend not to pronounce R's. Hence N'awlins or New Awlins instead of New Orleans. We wouldn't say poor at all, but "pouw-ah". But then again that's a generalization as well; I talk more like a Yank.

[Albion]

Yes, OK, but why did pronunciation of the "heavy"-R sound lose out in Britain and now only "some dialects" retain it? I understand that it was once predominant, and not anymore.


Maybe this is an unanswerable question. Why does any linguistic shift ever happen? Still, it's fascinating to me.

That's my point exactly. Americans should stop criticizing the dialects of the UK, because after all they are just shifting and evolving English, a natural process which has always happened and will continue to do so.
Its what makes "British English" dialects fun!:thumbs up

[Albion]

American accents in general appear, to my ear at least, to be largely descended from the English accents of the South-West. Not only do both pronounce their r's quite prominently, but there are other similarities to, such as a tendency to prounce t's as d's, and s's as z's.

Conversely, the accents of Australia and New Zealand are descended from those of the South-East. Since the descent was a lot more recent, they're still a lot closer. I still sometimes have difficulty telling the difference between a Londoner and an Aussie.

Have you ever seen scousers arguing? Now that's un-interpretable. :D:D:D

[Allenson]

Example:
FIREPOWER
British: Fiyah-powah


Sounds like Boston/eastern New England to me. ;)

[Loddfafner]

According to a public television series on the history of the English language some years ago, the distinctive American R is primarily the result of Scots-Irish influence.

[Loki]

According to a public television series on the history of the English language some years ago, the distinctive American R is primarily the result of Scots-Irish influence.

I was just about to say the same thing, Lodd beat me to it. ;)

I have often wondered about why Americans pronounce their "R" as they do, and my theory is that it is because of the substantial Irish contribution to the American genepool. I don't think British people ever spoke like that, and as celtabria rightly said, the RP pronunciation is, and always has been, limited to class and region. The American "R" also sounds vastly different from the "R" in RP. It sounds more like the Irish one. So, I'm sorry Americans, but you're more Irish than English. ;)

[Osweo]

I have often wondered about why Americans pronounce their "R" as they do, and my theory is that it is because of the substantial Irish contribution to the American genepool. I don't think British people ever spoke like that, and as celtabria rightly said, the RP pronunciation is, and always has been, limited to class and region. The American "R" also sounds vastly different from the "R" in RP. It sounds more like the Irish one. So, I'm sorry Americans, but you're more Irish than English. ;)

Nah, it's a case of A and C are similar cos both are from B.

Irish in those days were still near enough speaking their own language to an appreciable degree. They learnt English en masse in the late 1600s early 1700s, exactly when the foundations were laid for Anglo-America. The sort of English of the time was more rhotic, even in the east, and it stayed that way in these outposts.

Received Pronunciation is a very recent phenomenon. As late as 1845 we had a Prime Minister with a local accent.

There WAS a large Irish and Scotch (i.e. Lowlands) impact, sure, but I didn't want to make the 'A, B, C' scheme too complicated! :thumb001:

[Beorn]

The decline in England, and the rest of Britainland, is due to this...

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/126642/2/istockphoto_126642_old_television.jpg

[Treffie]

But generalization is possible.
The typical British person will say the word "poor" as "pu-ah" or "po-ah", whereas the typical American will say "pu-err".

(Actually most Americans tend to say the word as more like the word "pore", I find. Not me, though: I say "pu-err". I take after my mother [b.Connecticut] more linguistically, who also says "auhnt" and not "ant" for one's mother's sister...)

Many Scots and Welsh will slightly trill the final `r` - quite a lot of areas in England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotic_and_non-rhotic_accents) still pronounce it too.

It's weird, but I'm rhotic when I speak Welsh, but hardly ever when I speak English :)

Accents and Dialects of the UK (http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/)

[Óttar]

As Lenny pointed out, r is not pronounced in German in many instances. In Boston neither the high-class, soon to be moribund (:() Boston Brahmin dialect (this is very close to URP English) nor the blue collar Boston dialect (No-maaah Gar-see-a-pair-ah, Wicked haaahd) retain the final "r." In the latter, "Cocksparrer" would be pronounced Cahk'Spair'ah, and the "sparrer" part would be "spairah" in the Cockney as well.

Don't forget the "cracked peppah."

I wish I could find the Saturday Night Live skit making fun of the Boston accent, it's funny as Hell.

[Libertas]

In SE England they make up for it by sticking R where it does not belong as in AfricaR or IndiaR.

[Comte Arnau]

You call that an r? Come on, that's so lame, you don't even touch the roof of the mouth. At least the Scottish do it. :)

[Treffie]

In SE England they make up for it by sticking R where it does not belong as in AfricaR or IndiaR.

No, they pronounce it Africaah and Indiaah :p

[HungAryan]

I would add that all German accents I've ever heard shy away from pronouncing Rs, too.

"That costs ten Mark"
"Das kostet zehn Mark"
="Dah-ss kohs-tet tzehn Mah-k"


I that French has similar stuff going on as well.
Pronouncing R as H...

It sounds like when someone is eating chocolate, and attempting to talk at the same time.

[Albion]

No, they pronounce it Africaah and Indiaah :p

Lol, posh twits. :p

[Osweo]

I that French has similar stuff going on as well.
Pronouncing R as H...


I heard that German lost the rolling trilled R and adopted a more Frenchy/Parisian one under influence from the Francophile German elite in the late 1700s.

TrOO Germans should roll the R! :p

[Comte Arnau]

I heard that German lost the rolling trilled R and adopted a more Frenchy/Parisian one under influence from the Francophile German elite in the late 1700s.

TrOO Germans should roll the R! :p


What's even worse, the Portuguese decided to change the strong r for the Parisian one too. Ahhh, how could an Iberian folk do it, I still wonder. :shakefist

[Damião de Góis]

What's even worse, the Portuguese decided to change the strong r for the Parisian one too. Ahhh, how could an Iberian folk do it, I still wonder. :shakefist

We did? I don't get why you keep say that :lol:
My inability of saying R's the spanish way has nothing to do with the french. :coffee:

[Comte Arnau]

We did? I don't get why you keep say that :lol:
My inability of saying R's the spanish way has nothing to do with the french. :coffee:

Of course you did. You pronounced strong r's the way your Iberian neighbours (Spaniards, Basques and Catalans) do. I even think some rural accents in Portugal might still keep it.

You just tried to imitate the Parisians to look more posh. And now you say cagggho instead of the macho caRRRo. Bah, Iberian traitors. :p

[Han Cholo]

Some portuguese still roll the r. The accent from Porto I've heard roll the ending syllabe's R.
For example, estar, fuder, expresar, comportamento, português are rolled but not real, carro, ferro, etc.

[Damião de Góis]

Of course you did. You pronounced strong r's the way your Iberian neighbours (Spaniards, Basques and Catalans) do. I even think some rural accents in Portugal might still keep it.

You just tried to imitate the Parisians to look more posh. And now you say cagggho instead of the macho caRRRo. Bah, Iberian traitors. :p

I don't know about that. All i know is i can't say caRRRo, i say something like "cajo" (using a castillian J) instead. Some people do say those strong R's btw, even in Lisbon. But they are a minority.

However, as you might know i'm not from Lisbon. So even if the higher classes of Lisbon adopted some french diction years ago, there would be no reason for me to speak the same way. In fact i think people elsewhere don't say R's that way either, not just in Lisbon. I think northern people speak like that too.

[Comte Arnau]

Some portuguese still roll the r. The accent from Porto I've heard roll the ending syllabe's R.
For example, estar, fuder, expresar, comportamento, português are rolled but not real, carro, ferro, etc.

Great! :thumb001:


I don't know about that. All i know is i can't say caRRRo, i say something like "cajo" (using a castillian J) instead. Some people do say those strong R's btw, even in Lisbon. But they are a minority.

However, as you might know i'm not from Lisbon. So even if the higher classes of Lisbon adopted some french diction years ago, there would be no reason for me to speak the same way. In fact i think people elsewhere don't say R's that way either, not just in Lisbon. I think northern people speak like that too.

Well, I only know that the "French r" is what I see in all books about Standard Portuguese, and the one I usually hear when I listen to the Portuguese, wherever they're from. But as I said, I'm convinced some "Iberian r" are still pronounced by some people, as you and Decimator confirmed to me.

I was just jokin, of course. You're not responsible for this kind of things, lol. I'm also sad that the distinction b/v is almost lost in Catalan now, for example. You keep it well alive, way to go! ;)

[HungAryan]

In the Eastern European langauges - including Hungarian, Romanian, and every single Slavic language - we only have the Rolled R... We don't want the posh Anglo-French R :D

[Graham]

You call that an r? Come on, that's so lame, you don't even touch the roof of the mouth. At least the Scottish do it. :)

You sir, a man of wisdom. :D

Just get some englishman to say the letter 'r'. Sounds like aaa.

The English have the cheek to laugh at us when we say words like murder,burger and burglar correctly. We say it right you bastards!! :shakefist:shakefist:mad:

The letter 'h' is disappearing in England also, I noticed.

[Albion]

You sir, a man of wisdom. :D

Just get some englishman to say the letter 'r'. Sounds like aaa.

The English have the cheek to laugh at us when we say words like murder,burger and burglar correctly. We say it right you bastards!! :shakefist:shakefist:mad:

The letter 'h' is disappearing in England also, I noticed.

Hey, we speak English - it's you lot who speak Scots (AKA Scotlish).
Ours is a progressive language. :D

[Albion]

You sir, a man of wisdom. :D

Just get some englishman to say the letter 'r'. Sounds like aaa.

The English have the cheek to laugh at us when we say words like murder,burger and burglar correctly. We say it right you bastards!! :shakefist:shakefist:mad:

The letter 'h' is disappearing in England also, I noticed.

[Graham]

Hey, we speak English - it's you lot who speak Scots (AKA Scotlish).
Ours is a progressive language. :D

curly wurly pronounced cu-rr-ly wu-rr-ly
"haych" not "aych". :D

Get it right! :p

[johngaunt]

curly wurly pronounced cu-rr-ly wu-rr-ly
"haych" not "aych". :D

Get it right! :p

You;re right infact.
Scots (and majority of northern English) is actually what most of England sounded like pre-Norman conquest. The influx of French Norman dialects changed English in England to a greater extent than the north and Scotland. English is a bastardised version of Scots.

[Albion]

curly wurly pronounced cu-rr-ly wu-rr-ly
"haych" not "aych". :D

Get it right! :p

I pronounce it them that way, well apart from "hey up" which everyone knows is pronounced as " 'ey up".


English is a bastardised version of Scots.

Not really, Scots is an offshoot of Middle English whereas Modern English is the direct descendant.
Scots has less Romanic loan words than English but has been subjected to more North Germanic input than Standard English (however Northern English dialects went through a similar process).

A lot of people think the Northern dialects and Scots represent some unaltered Germanic dialects but in fact it was the Northern dialects which evolved the most during the Middle Ages.
Southern and Midland dialects were more conservative in many respects, especially in the South West. However they did absorb more Romanic vocabulary and show similar changes to other Germanic languages.

The main difference is that the Northern dialects retained a more archaic vocabulary and speech pattern whereas the Southern dialects evolved slower but absorbed more new words and went through major changes.

To suggest that Northern England and Scotland are some bastion of a unaltered tongue is wrong, you can quite clearly see it is not the case by looking at the sheer amount of dialects and accents in the North compared to the South. New dialects and accents mean that the dialects of the North and Scotland mustn't be all that unchanged after all.
Even Scots is subdivided into dialects, some of which are quite distinct such as Shetlandic (absorbed much Norn).

Vocabulary isn't everything.

Scots feels archaic because that's what it is. Its comprehensible but I'd rather talk my native NW Midlands dialect than strain to make all the extra Scottish sounds, some are quite German-esque. :D

Interesting developments of Middle English (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36802)

[Amapola]

I think Some British people still pronounce it as the Scots or the people from Devon?

[Osweo]

I think Some British people still pronounce it as the Scots or the people from Devon?

Yep, you heard the old fellers shouting in the street in Ilfracombe! :D