Merkel misled Germans

[hereward]

She was initially hailed as the “Iron Chancellor” for holding out against a bailout for the Greeks. But this weekend Angela Merkel was accused of having misled voters after it emerged that Germany would contribute more than €25 billion (£21.7 billion) towards a rescue package.
Merkel was forced to concede last week that Germany would pay the lion’s share of the EU money to be pumped into Greece by 2012.
“I know that this will be very painful,” Merkel said, adding that there was no “sensible alternative”.
Merkel’s earlier tough rhetoric had fuelled fierce anti-Greek sentiment, with more than 80% of Germans opposing a bailout. “Most Germans struggle to understand why they should be paying for the Greeks, who are broke because they squandered their money,” said Bild, Germany’s top-selling tabloid.
The backlash could cause Germany to reconsider its role as Europe’s paymaster.
“The economic consequences of the failure of monetary union, which now appears likely, cannot be calculated,” said Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Germany’s leading broadsheet, in a front-page editorial.
Thomas Klau, of the European Council on Foreign Relations think tank, said Berlin’s handling of the Greek crisis had diminished Germans’ trust in the euro, with potentially serious consequences for European integration.
The latest polls indicate that 66% of Germans have become disillusioned with the government and 57% feel Merkel’s coalition should be “taught a lesson” in elections next Sunday in the populous state of North Rhine-Westphalia.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7114100.ece

Keep your wealth for your own, wake up Germany.

[Arne]

These swarthy Greeks didn´t earn to get Money.

[The Lawspeaker]

Did we expect a different outcome ?

[poiuytrewq0987]

Actually it's good that Merkel decided to bail out the Greeks? Why? Because it means the Germans will vote them out of the parliament instead of voting them in like they are a bunch of drones.

[Arne]

Actually it's good that Merkel decided to bail out the Greeks? Why? Because it means the Germans will vote them out of the parliament instead of voting them in like they are a bunch of drones.

You´re telling bullshit because you have absolutely no clues what´s going on.
Germany don´t have the need to bail for these failed greeks.

[The Lawspeaker]

Actually it's good that Merkel decided to bail out the Greeks? Why? Because it means the Germans will vote them out of the parliament instead of voting them in like they are a bunch of drones.
That's mere theory, Void. The German electorate is not much different from the American, Dutch or British electorate. Just as sheepish and just as stupid so in the end they will fall for Merkel's nonsense again keep her in power. :rolleyes:

[Agrippa]

The Greeks are in a financial crisis which was as much the fault of the banks and rating agencies as of themselves. If the interest is going up that much, almost every country would get in serious troubles and there are huge speculations and plutocratic interests at work once more.

The real profiteers are the banks and speculators, neither the Greeks and for sure not the Germans. After all its just about cheap credits for the Greeks, in theory the Greeks should pay it back.

But what they really do is to make an example of Greece, with a Neoliberal-asocial policy they forced upon a whole nation.

Britain, Portugal and Spain are in almost as desperate conditions, and if the FED wouldnt be able to buy the own US-bonds and force the rest of the world to use and buy dollars and bonds, because the plutocracy and political power manipulates the system, the USA would long be bankrupt.

After all, the raw data of Greece is not that bad in comparison to various other nations, its all made up - yet we can't say they are innocent, thats for sure, they shouldnt have lied when they came into the Euro-zone to begin with, but after the financial crisis, market and rating agency manipulation, they were simply forced to become beggars and now they want to brainwash them, making an example for a totally asocial and control policy which the plutocracy wants to install in all of Europe.

Thats the real threat beside a major economical crisis, which in turn being the result of a corrupted and wrong financial system, money based on the banks and dept, for which the public, the people have to pay interest, which is a crime and redistribution of wealth, simple power of the people by this corrupted clique of the plutocratic oligarchy.

[Svanhild]

Actually it's good that Merkel decided to bail out the Greeks? Why? Because it means the Germans will vote them out of the parliament instead of voting them in like they are a bunch of drones.
No party in our parliament is against a bail out, no party is against the European Union and the Euro currency. It doesn't matter if Merkel loses the next election or not, the shit stays the same. Until a real pro national party enters the parliament.

[poiuytrewq0987]

No party in our parliament is against a bail out, no party is against the European Union and the Euro currency. It doesn't matter if Merkel loses the next election or not, the shit stays the same. Until a real pro national party enters the parliament.

Don't tell me the NPD is pro-bailout. ;)

[Absinthe]

I am quoting this post that comes from a discussion on the BBC website (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/05/greece_the_price_of.html) about the Greek crisis.

It is extremely objective and accurate. And since they come from a non-Greek, those words are bound to be sincere (or at least, unbiased).

So for those of you who imagine the average Greeks as lazy welfare niggas lying around in the sun all day and eating with silver spoons, please read this and try to get a better understanding of reality. :)


73. At 7:09pm on 02 May 2010, Angela wrote:

I am not Greek but I live in Greece and after reading some of the comments here I felt compelled to respond.

Some of you have this opinion that Greeks are lazy and freeloaders. I would like to point out that Greeks work some of the longest hours in the European Union. Yet they get 650 Euros monthly as a minimum wage even if they have a bachelor's degree. Many work 10 - 13 hours a day with no expectation of over time. I personally know someone who has been working for 10 years at the same company as a computer programmer and he receives 1500 Euros. This is not a random case but quite the opposite. A great salary in Greece is a measly 2000 Euros a month. Why though is this considered a great salary? Because it can cover a person's basic needs and leave a bit to save and go out a few times a month. I assure you not many Greeks make such a salary. A Greek household usually makes a salary of 2000 Euros or more when there are two people working. However, with two people, costs double and not much cash remains after bills are paid. Add a child or two into the mix and things get really rough. This is one of the main reasons that Greeks do not have lots of children in general. They simply cannot afford it and unlike many countries where citizens can expect plentiful assistance from their government when they have children, Greeks can look forward to about 100 Euros a year of assistance. It is simply laughable.

Yes Greeks are corrupt but many of them do it because they have no choice. This is not their fault but that of the public servants but then again a large part of that blame falls on the government. Let me give you an example, doctors in Greece are seriously underpaid and overworked so they try to make extra money by charging patients who need surgeries or other assistance such as pregnant women. When a woman goes to the public hospital to give birth, she knows her doctor beforehand and he has already told her how much he will expect to deliver the baby, this price can run from 500 - 2500 Euros depending on where she gives birth. What is a woman supposed to do in such a case? Refuse to give birth? Complain? Who to? The government knows what has been going on for all these years and have done nothing while the Greek people suffer. Basically if you want to get something done in the Greek public sector you are much more likely to get it done quickly if you know someone or you pay someone. Again I say the government knows this and have done nothing. What are the people to do? In Greece if you call a plumber or electrician or someone to fix something in you home, they will tell you the price is this amount but without a receipt, I will give you a lower price. For many cash strapped Greeks, the lower price is the best option. When someone makes 650 Euros a month and has to pay 300 Euros in rent, 35 Euros to publicly commute to and from work, 20 Euros minimum in building fees, 100 Euros in food, 20 - 40 Euros for a landline, 20 for a mobile, 10 -15 for water, 20 - 80 for Electricity not to mention any other personal items they might need, they are pretty hard pressed not to try to find a cheaper solution to live. The average Greek person doesn't aim to have the world at their feet but they would like to be able to pay their bills and have a little bit of money left over to save, go out to eat or go out for a coffee a few times a month.

It is easy to sit in your country and try to pass blame on the Greek people but unless you live here and see the day to day life, you cannot judge. That however doesn't mean that you can't judge the Greek politicans because they are the ones that have brought this country to it's knees. There are two main political parties in Greece, PASOK and Nea Democratia and none of the two is useful. They both blame each other for whatever crisis the country is in and hope that the people will not see through their veil of deceit.

They took the money of the pensioners and played it in the stock market and now tell them that they have no money to pay their pensions and that they will take away some of their benefits. There are people here who receive 500 Euros a month in pension. Thank God their benefits will still be available to them as they already get little money as it is. They talk about taking away the extra money Greeks receive at Easter, Summer and Christmas. This might seem like a luxury to outsiders but considering Greek employers do not give raises this money is usually critical for a Greek family. My husband has been working in the same company for four years and only once has he received a raise and that was for 120 Euros. Due to these ridiculously low wages many Greeks live in extended family household and many move out when they are in their 30's. This is simply because they cannot afford to do otherwise.

I am in serious doubt that the money from the bailout will help the Greek people because the measures that are going to be introduced in my opinion will cripple the Greek people. They are already suffering, barely scraping by month by month and with the hike in taxes, it will be worse and unfortunately instead of curbing corruption, it will just make the average person think of more creative ways to avoid paying taxes or find a cheaper way of paying for a service. I don't agree with it but I can understand it.

The people that the government should go after is that minority group of wealthy people who are the biggest avoiders of taxes. They build their villas and mansions illegally but are fined a few thousands, they employ and exploit illegal immigrants and they get the best accountants who can show them how is the best way to write off their hummers and BMWs.

So when you are sitting their watching or reading the news ask yourself, what if my government was lying to me about the finances of my country? What if they were telling you that the economy has no problems for years and then suddenly they say that the country is on the brink of bancruptcy?What if they say we know it's the fault of our politicians but we want to start over new? What if they say we know it's not your fault but for the better of the country you will have to suffer some extremely hard years? What will you do? Will you be angry? Will you protest? Will you look at you child or children and wonder how you will take care of them? Will you look at your parents and wonder if they have enough to eat now that their pension benefits are being cut? Will you worry about your pension? Will you want someone to be held accountable? Or will you leave everything in their trusting hands and accept whatever they say?

While you are thinking about this and deciding what action you would have taken, the Greek people have no choice and are forced to accept the latter option no matter if they choose to exercise their rights for the former options.

And for those of you who rejoice in Greece's current misery, heed my words:

you might be next. :....

[poiuytrewq0987]

That's really unfortunate, Absinthe. I thought at least the situation in Greece was better than other Balkan countries but it doesn't seem Greece is very high on the ladder. I think if the Greeks want a real change then they should vote for LAOS instead just of PASOK or ND (oddly similar to the political situation in the USA where people just vote for the Democrat/Republican party).

[The Lawspeaker]

That's really unfortunate, Absinthe. I thought at least the situation in Greece was better than other Balkan countries but it doesn't seem Greece is very high on the ladder. I think if the Greeks want a real change then they should vote for LAOS instead just of PASOK or ND (oddly similar to the political situation in the USA where people just vote for the Democrat/Republican party).
It doesn't make much of a difference for what party one votes. They're all the same. :coffee:

[poiuytrewq0987]

It doesn't make much of a difference for what party one votes. They're all the same. :coffee:

Not really. The PASOK and ND are the two parties that have been in power post-WW2. Those two parties have a monopoly on Greek politics. If a party like LAOS or some other right wing party comes in and break the monopoly then there's likely to be a change.

[Absinthe]

I think if the Greeks want a real change then they should vote for LAOS instead just of PASOK or ND (oddly similar to the political situation in the USA where people just vote for the Democrat/Republican party).

Well if the average Greek is guilty of one crime, that's not laziness or even corruption.

It's stupidity. Immense, unfathomable stupidity.

They've been voting for those two interchangeably over the last 40 years, despite the fact that they've been repeatedly let down by both.

So what they do is vote for one of them and when one scandal appears after another, they "punish" this government by voting for the competition. And when the competition gets elected and fucks up they bring back the previous party.

But don't think that LAOS would change the situation. Why? Because they're against immigration? In my eyes they're potential candidates for corruption just like everyone else in Greek politics. They might not appear to be so because so far they don't have enough power. But over the years there hasn't been a single party that hasn't been corrupted once they entered the parliament.

[Agrippa]

Well if the average Greek is guilty of one crime, that's not laziness or even corruption.

It's stupidity. Immense, unfathomable stupidity.

They've been voting for those two interchangeably over the last 40 years, despite the fact that they've been repeatedly let down by both.

So what they do is vote for one of them and when one scandal appears after another, they "punish" this government by voting for the competition. And when the competition gets elected and fucks up they bring back the previous party.

Well, thats what we call "Liberal Democracy" in the West, especially in countries in which there is a majority voting system, which makes things works. Tweedledee and Tweedledum, I call it in German "Schaukeldemokratie", because it swings forth and back, forth and back, but always in the established range which the "political correctness", pressure by the media and educational system, the structures and police state, allow it. Thats in the end a plutocratic rule, even more so as the swing became shorter and shorter. I mean in some distant past, some decades from now, voting for the Socialists/Social Democrats had at least something to do with a prosocial and fair policy in general, yes, too lax with immigration, moral and faster spreaders of Cultural Marxism too, but still.

Now you can look at Labour in Britain or the SPD in Germany, they dont even apply to their own old standards any more, being totally corrupted, not just in Greece, just think about the "politicians to rent like a taxi" in Britain...

This system as such has be overthrown, Liberal Democracy doesnt work. I dont know if Democracy, real one, works at all, but this one for sure not.


But don't think that LAOS would change the situation. Why? Because they're against immigration? In my eyes they're potential candidates for corruption just like everyone else in Greek politics. They might not appear to be so because so far they don't have enough power. But over the years there hasn't been a single party that hasn't been corrupted once they entered the parliament.

That was called in Italy "Transformismo". It worked with most movements and parties once they had to "go through the institutions" and when they achieved to move into the higher political sphere, they were already as "centered and corrupted" as all others...

Thats more virulent in the South of Europe I'd say, shows that there is more will for a change and less for stability there, but not enough to form a group with real idealists who have concrete and consequent goals.

Yet thats what all of Europe is suffering from, probably the whole of humanity, especially in our times in which Liberalcapitalism degraded all of them under the plutocratic rule.

[Austin]

No party in our parliament is against a bail out, no party is against the European Union and the Euro currency. It doesn't matter if Merkel loses the next election or not, the shit stays the same. Until a real pro national party enters the parliament.

That's what I was thinking, Merkel is like moderate-right compared to most other German politicians yes? Come down to Texas and see what a fiscal anti-tax, anti-welfare politician really is hah (:

[The Lawspeaker]

That's what I was thinking, Merkel is like moderate-right compared to most other German politicians yes? Come down to Texas and see what a fiscal anti-tax, anti-welfare politician really is hah (:
But as a consequence the levels of poverty in Texas are astoundingly high. The odd thing is that if there would be no immigrants in Germany then the tax income could be better spend and there would be no poverty whatsoever.

[Austin]

But as a consequence the levels of poverty in Texas are astoundingly high. The odd thing is that if there would be no immigrants in Germany then the tax income could be better spend and there would be no poverty whatsoever.

Yes but you see the reason Texas has so much poverty is because, and this is what you will never hear, anywhere, ever, is that Texas has 5-6 million illegal aliens from Mexico in it living ten to a house on the poor sides of cities where everyone is illegal.

Also most Mexicans in Texas are poor, even the legit ones. I live in a middle-upper class neighborhood of 400 in south Texas in a majority Mexican-city. Know how many Mexicans live in my neighborhood? Zero. Texas government is still run by whites. The whites take the tax revenue (since they generate it) and allocate it only to our districts, to our schools, to our communities.

The reason Texas has poverty is because Texas state and local govt. doles out the tax money to white (European-descent) only areas, and lets the immigrants squalor in their filth drug ridden ghetto's.

In the U.S. whites have had to learn to find ways to keep non-whites out of their areas and stop them from plundering our tax money that we generate. In Texas this is done by a zealous anti-minority police force and radical drug laws which negatively impact minorities.

[Arne]

Well if the average Greek is guilty of one crime, that's not laziness or even corruption.

It's stupidity. Immense, unfathomable stupidity.

They've been voting for those two interchangeably over the last 40 years, despite the fact that they've been repeatedly let down by both.

So what they do is vote for one of them and when one scandal appears after another, they "punish" this government by voting for the competition. And when the competition gets elected and fucks up they bring back the previous party.

But don't think that LAOS would change the situation. Why? Because they're against immigration? In my eyes they're potential candidates for corruption just like everyone else in Greek politics. They might not appear to be so because so far they don't have enough power. But over the years there hasn't been a single party that hasn't been corrupted once they entered the parliament.
It´s not about Guilty it´s about bail out Greek even if you´re already in the same Trouble ?
How can a Country give Money if they are in Debts ?
Had you noticed Germany is heavily indebted ?
Maybe these Germans don´t work enough to satisfy the Hunger of each and every Country which demand Money.
Who will be the Next ?
That´s one of the Questions you reconsider yourself..
Don´t you think it´s stopping ?
Who will pay Germany´s debts ?
Anyone ? Someone ?
People outside from Germany should understand that Germany is not the rich Spender anymore.
Then Germany is Guilty supporting Countrys with not available Money.

[Absinthe]

It´s not about Guilty it´s about bail out Greek even if you´re already in the same Trouble ?

I am sorry, I don't understand your English :....


How can a Country give Money if they are in Debts ?
Had you noticed Germany is heavily indebted ?

Why are you saying this to me? :shocked: :p Am I the Prime Minister of Greece? Is it my decision?

And yes, I very well understand why Germans are pissed off. I would be equally so if in their shoes. But those are decisions that the average citizen (of either country) has absolutely no say over.

In this respect, we have been both (Germans and Greeks) lied to and cheated by our fucking governments.

You think the ordinary Greek citizen wanted to end up asking money from Germans? If anything, it is humiliating.


Maybe these Germans don´t work enough to satisfy the Hunger of each and every Country which demand Money.

Again, why are you directing this question at me? Effing LOL! Or even at Greeks in general?

WE didn't make the EU or the Eurozone. It was obviously a lousy idea, and a situation where nobody wins. If Germany (and every other European country) had chosen sovereignty over those stupid monetary policies then nobody would be in this deep shit today.



Who will be the Next ?

I don't know. It could be anyone. It could be you.


That´s one of the Question you reconsider yourself..
Don´t you think it´s stopping ?

Here's a question that I don't understand. What do I think is stopping? Your English doesn't make sense.


Who will pay Germany´s debts ?
Anyone ? Someone ?

LOL, let me call my personal accountant and come back with the answers :rolleyes:


People outside from Germany should understand that Germany is not the rich Spender anymore.
Then Germany is Guilty supporting Countrys with not available Money.

Why are you saying this to me? Did I ask for German money? Did our politicians tell me they were embezzling German money? Do you think I was personally approving this? :rolleyes2:

[Svanhild]

I am quoting this post that comes from a discussion on the BBC website (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/05/greece_the_price_of.html) about the Greek crisis.

It is extremely objective and accurate. And since they come from a non-Greek, those words are bound to be sincere (or at least, unbiased).

So for those of you who imagine the average Greeks as lazy welfare niggas lying around in the sun all day and eating with silver spoons, please read this and try to get a better understanding of reality. :)
I'm sorry for the problems of your country and please don't take offence in my words, but I'm against spending even one single cent to your country. It's a bottomless pit in its current situation and there's a self-imposed factor among others. Ridiculous boycott calls of Greeks against Germany and German products are only decreasing the public concern for the fate of your country further and further. Almost 80% of Germans are against financial helps for Greece but our politicians don't give a damn. There have to be consequences.


Don't tell me the NPD is pro-bailout. ;)
Rightwing parties aren't in our national parliament.

[RoyBatty]

Perhaps it would have been better if instead of forcing Germany (and other EU countries ) to stump up money for bailing out Greece that instead the loans to the banks and lenders were defaulted. They then go out of business or get nationalised. The bosses lose their cushy jobs. The shareholders (particularly the major ones who had influence over the banks' dealings) lose their ill-gotten gains.

This situation with Greece was engineered through an intricate system of cheap credit, bogus financial products and deliberate fraud by Western (particularly US) financial institutions and Greek Administrations to mislead the Eurozone about Greece's economic position.

Screw the banks. Screw paying back the loans. The Goldman Sachs boss recently said that "investors came looking for risk and they got risk". Well, banks and lenders who lent indiscriminately to Greece also came looking for and got risk.

[Absinthe]

I'm sorry for the problems of your country and please don't take offence in my words, but I'm against spending even one single cent to your country. It's a bottomless pit in its current situation and there's a self-imposed factor among others. Ridiculous boycott calls of Greeks against Germany and German products are only decreasing the public concern for the fate of your country further and further. Almost 80% of Germans are against financial helps for Greece but our politicians don't give a damn. There have to be consequences.


Wait a minute, it seems you got me wrong here :wink

My previous posts were not intended to show that Germany ought to give money to Greece. My only goal was to shatter this stereotype of Greeks (as a whole) being a lazy nation who likes going on vacations with other people's money and eat with silver spoons.

Yes, a percentage of them is like that. Mostly the public servants as well as certain economic mafias.

But you see in order for a society to function, if a percentage of the work force is crippled then the rest have to work twice as much in order to compensate. And ironically, those are the ones that get paid the least. And ironically, those are also the ones that pay their taxes.

I know that in the end of the day it doesn't matter because that's not your problem. If money comes out of your own pocket you couldn't care less if it goes to the lazy bastard or the hard working Greek - what matters is that it's coming out of your pocket and going to someone you don't know while you had nothing to do with that in the first place.

I'd be equally pissed off if I were you, and I do agree with you that Greece is a bottomless pit. The debt is abyssmal and I seriously doubt that any of that money is going to the right places.

And that's just your side of the story.

How about ours? For us it means, first and foremost, humiliation (probably the greatest one experienced in recent History), and most importantly, slavery.

You do understand how it is to feel that your whole nation has been enslaved by monetary unions, bankers, stoke brokers.
From now on, no matter how harder Greeks might work or how many sacrifices they make, and how much the country may develop by doing so, the money is never again going into our own pockets but straight to the banks and unions.

The only way to describe how I feel:

I feel like my own father sold me to a Russian mafioso/pimp because he couldn't repay the debts he made for his own entertainment.

So now I have to work in a brothel (and quite literally speaking at that!!! :D) and as if this wasn't bad enough, I don't get to see a penny as it all goes to the Russian mafia.
(This is not to equate Germans with the mafia, it's just an example :p)

Loans, stocks, bonds, spreads, all that is totally Greek to the average Greek citizen who works all day in a crappy job and earns 700 euros/month.

My bank account currently holds the measly amount of 500 euros and that is all the "security" I have in the world until I get my next paycheck which will barely cover basic expenses.
So not me, or most of Greeks for that matter, got into this game willingly.

Most of us have never even seen that money as it went straight from the EU and into the pockets of a few criminals.
So the average citizen has never enjoyed a "better life" because of foreign aid. And we sure ain't gonna enjoy it now. But hey, that's Capitalism!

For what it's worth it I would much prefer it if Greece was allowed to declare bankruptcy.
Surely that would be a big blow but then we would also have to rebuild our country and this time knowing we are on our own so we have to do our best.

That would be much preferred than the perpetual financial slavery we've gotten ourselves into. When will this end? Like you said, it's a bottomless pit.
Surely we deserved what was coming because we were so stupid as to believe that our politicians were doing their best for the country.
But in the end of the day, noone (and I mean, of the regular people) deserves that fate. :(

[SwordoftheVistula]

But hey, that's Capitalism!

No, that's socialism. The money got sucked up by public sector unions, heavily regulated industries (I saw in a recent article that it costs more to ship a load of potatoes from northern Greece to Athens than from Athens to London), and people with political connections. Same article, this guy's friend spent 10 years trying to open a hotel, and would have had to spend another 10 or pay a hefty bribe if he was not politically connected, due to all the regulatory hurdles. You can't have much economic growth in such a place, and they needed money from somewhere to pay off all the government employees (able to retire around age 50 with full pension, including some extra months of pay per year). Solution? Falsify records in order to obtain loans, same as a street criminal who gets a credit card using false info and then tries to get out of paying.

[Austin]

Yes I do believe the fault of the massively unproductive public sector in Greece is being largely ignored in this thread. A country which relies on its public sector for most its jobs is doomed without a healthy private sector.

[Turkophagos]

Euro states to share profits from Greek loans, officials say

Brussels - Euro area states are expected to share the profits they will make from lending money to Greece, with mechanisms in place to make sure that none of them ends up losing money in the process, European Commission officials said Monday.

The eurogroup, the panel of eurozone finance ministers, agreed Sunday to let Greece tap into an 110-billion-euro (146 billion dollars) rescue package over the next three years, to help it avoid default on its skyrocketing debt.

Euro area states are expected to offer around 80 billion euros at an interest rate of around 5 per cent, with the rest coming from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) at a slightly lower interest rate.

The money, expected to be dished out in 12 instalments, would be raised individually by each euro government, but then 'pooled into a single fixed rate loan' by the commission, officials explained.

Activation of the aid mechanism is still dependent on parliamentary approval in several euro countries, but the first portion is expected to be disbursed before May 19, in order to allow Greece to pay back 8.5 billion euros of debt maturing on that day.

The arrangement is favourable to Greece, where risk premiums on 2- year government bonds have jumped to over 10 per cent, as well as for financially solid countries such as Germany, which can raise capital in the markets at around 3 per cent and loan it to Athens at a higher price.

But the system may be risky for other eurozone countries whose debt restructuring costs are also on the rise due to precarious fiscal positions.

Yields on 10-year government bonds from Portugal and Ireland, for example, have jumped over the 5-per-cent bar, raising the prospect that both countries would have to borrow money at rates higher than they would lend to Greece.

But a commission official said any euro country facing such a loss 'would be paid back in full' by other eurozone partners still in the black, which would take home as a result 'a slightly lower profit as a result.'

The same source said loans would mature after three years, so that Greece 'would begin repaying them in 2013 and finish in mid 2016.'

He also stressed that the 110-billion-euro figure, which some analysts say may not be sufficient, is not intended to cover all of Greece's refinancing needs over the next three years.

The commission expects that, as the austerity measures recommended by the EU and IMF are implemented, Greece will regain the markets' confidence and again start raising capital privately at a rate lower than the 5 per cent offered by the eurozone.

'We expect them to be able to do that by mid-2011,' the EU official said, mentioning Hungary's precedent of not needing to draw on the last instalment of the 20-billion-euro extended to it by the EU and IMF because of its improved market standing.

Officials also insisted that disbursement of the money would depend on Greece following a strict road map for reforms, with quarterly progress reviews planned.

On that basis, eurozone finance ministers would decide regularly whether to grant the next portion of the aid.

'We have not given them a blank cheque for three years,' commission officials stressed.


http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Money/Story/STIStory_522155.html




None is spending money for Greeks, european governments are making money out of greek misery. It's called loan, with an interest 500% more than inflation, not aid. You're not "saving" anyone here, you're sharing the profits, deal with it!

[SwordoftheVistula]

I doubt that money will ever get paid back, at least not most of it. How can they, when they are still expected to have a budget deficit even after the 'austerity measures'?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/05/04/greeks_aim_to_change_culture_after_crisis.html

When Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou discusses the $145 billion bailout plan that was adopted Sunday, he describes his nation's chaotic finances in language that should make sense even to grumpy German taxpayers who will be putting up the largest share of the rescue money.

Greece's problem, Papandreou says, was that it developed a financial culture in which pervasive corruption and tax evasion were tolerated. Its leaders made promises they couldn't keep; they expanded public-sector employment so much that nobody even knew, for sure, the number of government employees.

Now it's time to pay the euro-piper, with one of the most severe austerity programs, on paper at least, ever proposed for a developed country. The package will cut public-sector wages and pensions for three years and slash the Greek budget deficit from 13.6 percent of gross domestic product to less than 3 percent by the end of 2014. For every five government workers who leave their jobs, only one will be hired.

"This will create a different Greece," Papandreou said in an interview Sunday. "Our basic bet is that we are cutting down on disorder, cutting down on graft and tax evasion." He explained that under the old culture, "there was a sense that people who had the power and means could go around and do what they wanted. They asked, 'Why should I pay my taxes when others don't?' "

That financial never-land was Greece in the old days. According to Papandreou, those days ended Sunday. He managed to persuade European Union finance ministers and the International Monetary Fund to extend the rescue package this weekend, in exchange for the Greek concessions. We'll see this week whether the financial markets believe that Papandreou can deliver on these promises.

"Austerity" and "Greece" don't go easily in the same sentence. That's my chief reason for skepticism about the bailout-austerity package. It goes against the freewheeling, boisterous national spirit that makes Greece such a delightful place to visit -- and such a nightmare for finance ministers from the more uptight, less spendthrift countries of northern Europe. But it's precisely those cultural issues that Papandreou indicated he is ready to tackle.

Papandreou spoke by telephone from his home in Athens late Sunday evening. Negotiations with the E.U. finance ministers, which have dragged on for days, had ended; the angry Greek demonstrators who had been in the streets this weekend, protesting what one trade union official called "savage" cuts, had gone home for the night.

The prime minister was trying his best to put a positive spin on events. He argued that the demise of the old culture of corruption created a new "opportunity for Greece and for investors" to build the economy on a more solid foundation. He said he plans to conduct a census to count the public-sector work force -- yes, it's really that bad -- and replace a haphazard system in which some public pay records are computerized and others are kept by hand.

Corruption's drain on the Greek economy is huge, Papandreou said. He cited a Brookings Institution study that estimated the total cost at $20 billion, and a Greek study that pegged the cost at $30 billion. Graft accounts for 8 to 12 percent of Greek GDP, Papandreou said.

What comes next for Europe, now that the Greek rescue package has been negotiated? The first question the eurozone will face Monday is whether the other weak, debt-laden economies -- Portugal, Ireland and Spain -- will also need bailouts to avoid default. Financial bailouts tend to be like falling dominoes: Once one goes down, the others tend to follow.

But the larger challenge is to fix the European fiscal system -- or, to be more accurate, the lack of one -- that created the crisis in the first place. This eurozone has been a weird amalgam of one currency, 16 finance ministers and no final accountability. That must change.

Papandreou cited the stimulus package that Greece and other E.U. countries adopted in 2008 at the behest of Brussels. The rules were too flexible, he said, and in Greece the stimulus money just "ballooned the debt and deficit."

The Greeks need to change their financial culture in the wake of this crisis, just as Papandreou says. But what's equally necessary is a culture change in Brussels and the eurozone capitals, so that Europe has a union in more than name only.

[Agrippa]

The "plan" in detail is economic and social suicide for Greece. You can't do that to a nation in a recession, it will be completely ruined, its totally asocial and won't work out economically.

Rather than eliminating the holes in the tax system and end corruption to begin with, they take away the purchasing power from the people, ruin the economic programs etc., its just insane.

If these Greek politicians are not totally corrupted, they might sacrifice themselves politically because the only way out of this IMF prison might be a total failure in a short time, uprisings and revolts. Other than that Greece is now in slavery and the banks will put it down in an unbelievable way, especially for a European country.

Considering that Europe will pay for the IMF too, especially Germany, but with much less of an option to decide where it will go, the IMF, the Neoliberal, US-controlle plutocratic force is the worst choice.

If they spread a similar "austerity" to the rest of Europe, thats the end of social and economic structures as we know it in Europe, then there has to be a revolution, or we become poor, helpless and fully dependent slaves in a debt-based slavery system of the Plutocratic Oligarchy.

Really EVERY reasonable economic analysts says that this package will just completely ruin Greece, it won't bring it back on its feets, surely not.

[The Black Prince]

The "plan" in detail is economic and social suicide for Greece. You can't do that to a nation in a recession, it will be completely ruined, its totally asocial and won't work out economically.

Rather than eliminating the holes in the tax system and end corruption to begin with, they take away the purchasing power from the people, ruin the economic programs etc., its just insane.

Considering that Europe will pay for the IMF too, especially Germany, but with much less of an option to decide where it will go, the IMF, the Neoliberal, US-controlle plutocratic force is the worst choice.

Really EVERY reasonable economic analysts says that this package will just completely ruin Greece, it won't bring it back on its feets, surely not.

The truth is that the European countries already had thrown to much money into Greece (and for the record also Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc.). If they would have allowed for Greece to go bankrupt it might have performed a chain reaction throughout the EU, at the least it would seriously damage the other EU countries their economic balances.

However you are right that this money injection is a fatal one for Greece and therefore also a fatal one for the EU. Since Greece will take no severe actions agaisnt its bureaucrats and civil service, It won't be able to pay it back, with a chance that it will be in the same situation again within a couple of years.

The money injection is also a weak sign towards the other economically weak/corrupt Mediterranean countries... Instead of pushing them to conform to the EU rules (to keep up your financial balance) the current actions to "help" Greece will only show them that the EU is a milking cow not able to show its teeth.

[Jarl]

It's a bottomless pit in its current situation and there's a self-imposed factor among others.

This is partly because Greece introduced the euro, and joined the Union (which is a paper union as it turns out - as when shit happens nobody wants to clean it up).


Ridiculous boycott calls of Greeks against Germany and German products are only decreasing the public concern for the fate of your country further and further. Almost 80% of Germans are against financial helps for Greece but our politicians don't give a damn. There have to be consequences.

Rightwing parties aren't in our national parliament.

Your politicians dont give a damn coz EU means means business to the capitalists that make German politics. And as long as EU means cheap markets and business for Germany, they will be ready to sustain it. If they would not earn more than theyd lose, they would not set up the whole EU and EURO-zone in the first place.



You seem to believe that EU is some sort of free a handout that poor Germany delivers to everybody out of her soft benevolent heart. No. EU is not German martyrdom. EU is the greatest vent for German capital ever invented and it is partly thanks to EU that Germany can sustain itself as one of world's leading economies.

[SwordoftheVistula]

If they spread a similar "austerity" to the rest of Europe, thats the end of social and economic structures as we know it in Europe, then there has to be a revolution, or we become poor, helpless and fully dependent slaves in a debt-based slavery system of the Plutocratic Oligarchy.

It's already in process, and hard to avoid, thanks to the "social and economic structures as we know it in Europe" There's no such thing as a free lunch, and it will be difficult to pay back the money which is owed for the past few decades of living fat, especially since such a large portion of the costs incurred are through the retirement systems.

Even the 80% cut in the hiring of new government workers in Greece, while a good step, will not be enough because they will still have to pay pensions to all the current workers as they retire. There's no move to eliminate any workers currently in the system, nor any regulatory reform to get the economy moving in a proper fashion.

[Agrippa]

The truth is that the European countries already had thrown to much money into Greece (and for the record also Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc.). If they would have allowed for Greece to go bankrupt it might have performed a chain reaction throughout the EU, at the least it would seriously damage the other EU countries their economic balances.

However you are right that this money injection is a fatal one for Greece and therefore also a fatal one for the EU. Since Greece will take no severe actions agaisnt its bureaucrats and civil service, It won't be able to pay it back, with a chance that it will be in the same situation again within a couple of years.

The money injection is also a weak sign towards the other economically weak/corrupt Mediterranean countries... Instead of pushing them to conform to the EU rules (to keep up your financial balance) the current actions to "help" Greece will only show them that the EU is a milking cow not able to show its teeth.

In the situation of the "financial crisis" it was absurd to demand any country to conform to the old criteria and it was clear that states and economies, which were not that good off already, would suffer significantly.

Thats really no help in the sense of being helpful, but just a threat to European social and economic standards with the IMF being on board.

The only Greeks which should be punished by law are the Greek politicians which lied about the true financial situation of the country over the years before and after the introduction of Euro.

Its absurd to ruin a whole country with such idiotic and asocial measures which are completely unnecessary and won't bring forward any betterment.

Also the speculators and banks are primarily responsible for the whole situation now.

On the longer run the best solution for the Eurozone might be to exclude Greece from it though, if thinking that way, yet if thats not being done, we need to punch them free from the plutocratic grip or its no help.

Now they being thrown into the plutocratic pit rather, thats no help.

Also I dont wonder about that measures and policy, because the rest of Europe is also a plutocratic slave and that must be changed, with the complete corrupted financial system.


It's already in process, and hard to avoid, thanks to the "social and economic structures as we know it in Europe" There's no such thing as a free lunch, and it will be difficult to pay back the money which is owed for the past few decades of living fat, especially since such a large portion of the costs incurred are through the retirement systems.

Even the 80% cut in the hiring of new government workers in Greece, while a good step, will not be enough because they will still have to pay pensions to all the current workers as they retire. There's no move to eliminate any workers currently in the system, nor any regulatory reform to get the economy moving in a proper fashion.

That financial system with dept based money for which the people had to pay interest rates to the banks and plutocrats was exploitative for a very long time, this structure caused various crisis when the next saturation point, cycle came to an end and all the time the plutocrats exploited the situation, they were not eliminated over the centuries already.

Now they have accumulated so much wealth and power, that if we dont get rid of them now, this parasite might be able to overtake even more control over the world and people.

The rating agencies, banks and international institutions all played together to provoke the situation we have right now.

One asshole even spoke about how countries with a much worse economic situation by raw data are able to keep their interest rates low: "The market believes in them", as if there is any objective or reasonable judgement from the speculators, we know that from Soros & Co., we know that from the Hedge Fonds, they just ruin values for nothing good.

The derivate trade got out of a reasonable control since the last good laws were eliminated and now we have the mess which only a few people can completely overlook and which are highly dangerous politically, economically and of course financially, in a system which is already totally corrupted anyway.

I just hope that the crisis of the Capitalist-Financial system we have now will result in the elimination of the plutocrats and the reform of it for the good of the people and group and not the tyranny of the plutocratic oligarchy in an asocial control state.

[SwordoftheVistula]

If they hadn't run a budget deficit and had to borrow money in the first place, none of this dealing with the financial institutions would have happened. The influence of the banks probably has something to do with convincing Germany and other northern EU countries to bail out Greece, so that Greece can replay loans to those banks, but has nothing to do with Greece's economic crisis other than enabling Greece to prolong the behavior (large public sector and pensions, regulatory regime hostile to economic growth)

[The Black Prince]

On the longer run the best solution for the Eurozone might be to exclude Greece from it though, if thinking that way, yet if thats not being done, we need to punch them free from the plutocratic grip or its no help.


It would be very difficult to exclude (kick out) a country from the EU. Basically once your in the inner circle, you can't be given the bum.

However there is not much difficulty for a country to step out by themself.. Thus if the strong countries (German speaking lands, English speaking lands, the Lowlands, the Scandinavian lands, French?) would step out and in turn create and join in an economic cooperation, there would be nothing to stop them. Except perhaps the thought about that part of the population from the remaining EU countries that does work hard.

[poiuytrewq0987]

When Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou discusses the $145 billion bailout plan that was adopted Sunday, he describes his nation's chaotic finances in language that should make sense even to grumpy German taxpayers who will be putting up the largest share of the rescue money.

First I heard they needed $25 billion, then $30 then $35 then $110 but now it's $145... seriously, wtf?

[SwordoftheVistula]

It would be very difficult to exclude (kick out) a country from the EU. Basically once your in, you can't be given the bum.

However there is not much difficulty for a country to step out themself.. Thus if the strong countries (German speaking lands, English speaking lands, the Lowlands, the Scandinavian lands, French?) would step out and in turn create and join in an economic cooperation, there would be nothing to stop them. Except the thought about that part of population from the remaining EU countries that does work hard.

Quite likely refusing a bailout of any sort would have forced Greece to at least leave the Euro if not the EU as a whole, in order to devalue their currency (which is a large reason why they got bailed out)

[poiuytrewq0987]

I think with the total collapse of Greece' economy has shown that there is no successful economy in the Balkans right now. All Balkan countries are either broke or shit deep in debt. :icon_lol: That's good for the Turks because we'll make it easier for the Turks to retake the Balkans and be forced into another 500 years of Ottoman rule! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-dance017.gif

[Agrippa]

First I heard they needed $25 billion, then $30 then $35 then $110 but now it's $145... seriously, wtf?

Thats not just their fault, because the rating agencies constantly put them under pressure, making credits more and more expensive, so that Greece can't get money from the international market to an acceptable price any more.

Thats also because of the relatively late reaction of the other EU-states and the lack of a guarantee, which would have largely eliminated the rating agencies and speculators attack.

Now that they are in such a situation, they have to borrow almost all money they need in the next time from the other EU-states, because the interest rates are totally insane and inacceptable "the market" demands now.

[SwordoftheVistula]

You can't blame them. Would you want to lend money to a country which is discussing whether or not they will default on their debts?

[Agrippa]

You can't blame them. Would you want to lend money to a country which is discussing whether or not they will default on their debts?

If you make such an idiotic plan which won't work for the economy and people, you are an even greater idiot if accepting it!

That was no help, thats not even a plan, but just the plan for a complete degradation of the Greek economy and social system.

Reasonable economic scientists which strongly oppose the financial aid for Greece, even want the Greeks go out of the Eurozone, like Joachim Starbatty said in an absolutely clear manner, that this program will completely ruin Greece and MAKE IT a bottomless pit!

And for becoming that bottomless pit for the Neoliberal interests in Europe, the Greeks should cheer? How dumb are they supposed to be?

[ikki]

Oh yeah, how about our demands for islands? :p
heard germans are asking for kreta, finns going for rhodos... as guarantees for the debt.

Well, in my view what good would such islands be. Much better to demand 1L ouzo/cent unpaid.
At best some 320 billion liters of ouzo, or each finn getting 1000L a year... for over 60 years :D Damn that would be fun, signing out your yearly dose :D

[The Lawspeaker]

What about we give Greece those 2 billion euro's and we demand a couple of islands and limitless amounts of ouzo and retsina for the coming century. ;)

[RoyBatty]

Thats not just their fault, because the rating agencies constantly put them under pressure, making credits more and more expensive, so that Greece can't get money from the international market to an acceptable price any more.

Thats also because of the relatively late reaction of the other EU-states and the lack of a guarantee, which would have largely eliminated the rating agencies and speculators attack.

Now that they are in such a situation, they have to borrow almost all money they need in the next time from the other EU-states, because the interest rates are totally insane and inacceptable "the market" demands now.

The whole mess is a pre-arranged "Capitalist" con by the Banksters. I use "Capitalist" in quotation marks because of course it isn't really Capitalism at work but fraud - a cleverly designed fraud concocted between the banks and EU / Greek politicians to ensnare Greece and turn them into Serfs.

The same things are being done to other Western Countries (USA + EU) but so far the effects have been less extreme on the general population than in Greece.

It doesn't take a genius to understand that when big supposedly "Capitalist" Corporations and Banks get to privatise their profits but SOCIALISE THEIR DEBTS meaning that WE THE TAXPAYERS HAVE TO STUMP UP THE MONEY FOR THEIR INEVITABLE FAILURES and then WATCH HOW THEY USE OUR MONEY TO BUY OUT OUR COUNTRIES AND LAND FROM UNDER OUR FEET TURNING US INTO SERFS that we are being assaulted by the vilest most evil Internationalist Mafia known to humanity.

Forget the boring fake "terrorism threat" and "Islam is out to get us" BS. Whatever damage a handful of ragtag Friends of Allah cause is insignificant compared to the havoc and destruction the Zionist Banksters are causing.

The only way to take our countries back is to deny them access to our land, markets and economies, to place banks under STATE CONTROL and to get rid of our current corrupt bought and paid for fake "democracy" and clone politicians who all work for the same Banksters.

[ikki]

neither would iceland have been in any that serious problem, uness for that insidious piece of legislation... state guaranteeing banks...

That is one piece of law that has to go, and if that does away with banking, then so be it. Its not like they serve any kind of meaningful job paying intrest on depositions or on lending for say industrial projects.
If a company needs the money, they might aswell issue bonds, or print more shares.

[Agrippa]

neither would iceland have been in any that serious problem, uness for that insidious piece of legislation... state guaranteeing banks...

That is one piece of law that has to go, and if that does away with banking, then so be it. Its not like they serve any kind of meaningful job paying intrest on depositions or on lending for say industrial projects.
If a company needs the money, they might aswell issue bonds, or print more shares.

The problem comes from the independent Central Banks, which are not that independent at all anyway, especially that of the FED-system and the fractional banking system as such.

Companies really need credits, they need the flow of money. If that stops you can really expect in every country a crisis which might let the crisis of the 1930's look like a picnic in the park.

If the state doesnt react then, make up a state owned back and a debt free new fiat currency, you are a slave in a nightmare.

Gold and Silver? Guess who owns it and can speculate with it like with the money we have right now, the same plutocratic institutions and people.

In most European countries, without money flow in a recession, you can really begin to plant potatoes in your garden if you have some space, because it might be the only thing you get to eat for quite some time...

[SwordoftheVistula]

If you make such an idiotic plan which won't work for the economy and people, you are an even greater idiot if accepting it!

That was no help, thats not even a plan, but just the plan for a complete degradation of the Greek economy and social system.

Reasonable economic scientists which strongly oppose the financial aid for Greece, even want the Greeks go out of the Eurozone, like Joachim Starbatty said in an absolutely clear manner, that this program will completely ruin Greece and MAKE IT a bottomless pit!

And for becoming that bottomless pit for the Neoliberal interests in Europe, the Greeks should cheer? How dumb are they supposed to be?

The bailout plan is a bad idea any way you look at it, but these rioters are more angry about the austerity measures, which needed to be imposed anyways. This would have come to a head years ago, except joining the Euro (with faked statistics) allowed them to borrow money at an unnaturally low rate and prolong the system for years. The rioters are mad that they might no longer be able to get a cushy government job where they jack around for 30 years and then retire with a generous pension, which they shouldn't have been able to do in the first place. It's so out of control, they don't even have any idea how many government workers they have, so probably they have no clue what, if anything, all these workers are doing or supposed to be doing either.


Companies really need credits, they need the flow of money.

And that's why we need banks and stock markets, to provide that.

[Agrippa]

but these rioters are more angry about the austerity measures, which needed to be imposed anyways.

Thats the destructive Neoliberal IMF plan and its deadly. Measures should have been taken much earlier and corruption in Greece is omnipresent, as well as tax-fraud etc., but they didnt do anything about those problems, they just ruined the base for their own domestic market and for those which have not too much to live already.

Really no way out of that, it will just put them into an even deeper recession.


And that's why we need banks and stock markets, to provide that.

Yes. But not necessarily a private Central bank, no fractional banking system like we have it no, not an uncontrolled stock market with absurd financial products, derivates etc.

Remind you, some of those things are not that old, talking about some of the financial products and the derivates, they being here not much longer than a decade, some even shorter! They just opened the pandoras box by changing the law in the USA!

[Vulpix]

Remind you, some of those things are not that old, talking about some of the financial products and the derivates, they being here not much longer than a decade, some even shorter! They just opened the pandoras box by changing the law in the USA!

Derivatives were first devised long ago, originally for agricultural purposes.


The history of derivatives is surprisingly longer than what most people think. Some texts even find the existence of the characteristics of derivative contracts in incidents of Mahabharata. Traces of derivative contracts can even be found in incidents that date back to the ages before Jesus Christ.

However, the advent of modern day derivative contracts is attributed to the need for farmers to protect themselves from any decline in the price of their crops due to delayed monsoon, or overproduction.

The first 'futures' contracts can be traced to the Yodoya rice market in Osaka, Japan around 1650. These were evidently standardised contracts, which made them much like today's futures.

The Chicago Board of Trade (CBOT), the largest derivative exchange in the world, was established in 1848 where forward contracts on various commodities were standardised around 1865. From then on, futures contracts have remained more or less in the same form, as we know them today.

Derivatives have had a long presence in India. The commodity derivative market has been functioning in India since the nineteenth century with organized trading in cotton through the establishment of Cotton Trade Association in 1875. Since then contracts on various other commodities have been introduced as well.

Source (http://www.rediff.com/money/2005/apr/19perfin1.htm)

What has changed in the past decade was the explosive growth and development of financial derivatives, with those dodgy CDOs as an example in primis.

[Agrippa]

Derivatives were first devised long ago, originally for agricultural purposes.

What has changed in the past decade was the explosive growth and development of financial derivatives, with those dodgy CDOs as an example in primis.

Thats correct of course, should have been more precise. :thumbs up

Its worth to note though that even the old derivatives were constantly used for frauds and uncontrolled speculation, like with the "Tulip Mania", close to the times when the first Central Banks were founded, which I consider as one possible starting point for what we might consider "modern Capitalism" with all its merits and deficiencies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

[Klärchen]

State elections in Germany are often of marginal importance. But Sunday's vote in North Rhine-Westphalia has profound implications for Chancellor Angela Merkel, Germany's political landscape and the future of the Social Democrats. Here, a guide to the issues to watch out for.

North Rhine-Westphalia Votes (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,693662,00.html)