Irish Slaves in the Caribbean

[Bloodeagle]

What were the Cavanaughs doing in Barbados in the first place? The answer takes us down a revolting path wandering through one of the most insensitive and savage episodes in history, where the greed and avarice of the English monarchy systematically planned the genocide of the Irish, for commercial profit, and executed a continuing campaign to destroy all traces of Irish social, cultural and religious being. As the topic was politically sensitive, little has been written about this attempted genocide of the Irish, and what has been written has been camouflaged because it is an ugly and painfully brutal story. But the story should be told.

Transportation and Banishment

Queen Elizabeth IIf Queen Elizabeth I had lived in the 20th Century. she would have been viewed with the same horror as Hitler and Stalin. Her policy of Irish genocide was pursued with such evil zest it boggles the mind of modern men. But Elizabeth was only setting the stage for the even more savage program that was to follow her, directed specifically to exterminate the Irish. James II and Charles I continued Elizabeth's campaign, but Cromwell almost perfected it. Few people in modern so-called "civilized history" can match the horrors of Cromwell in Ireland. It is amazing what one man can do to his fellow man under the banner that God sanctions his actions!

Slave ShipThe reign of Elizabeth I, English privateers captured 300 African Negroes, sold them as slaves, and initiated the English slave trade. Slavery was, of course, an old established commerce dating back into earliest history. Julius Caesar brought over a million slaves from defeated armies back to Rome. By the 16th century, the Arabs were the most active, generally capturing native peoples, not just Africans, marching them to a seaport and selling them to ship owners. Dutch, Portuguese and Spanish ships were originally the most active, supplying slaves to the Spanish colonies in America. It was not a big business in the beginning, but a very profitable one, and ship owners were primarily interested only in profits. The morality of selling human beings was never a factor to them.

KinsaleAfter the Battle of Kinsale at the beginning of the 17th century, the English were faced with a problem of some 30,000 military prisoners, which they solved by creating an official policy of banishment. Other Irish leaders had voluntarily exiled to the continent, in fact, the Battle of Kinsale marked the beginning of the so-called "Wild Geese", those Irish banished from their homeland. Banishment, however, did not solve the problem entirely, so James II encouraged selling the Irish as slaves to planters and settlers in the New World colonies. The first Irish slaves were sold to a settlement on the Amazon River In South America in 1612. It would probably be more accurate to say that the first "recorded" sale of Irish slaves was in 1612, because the English, who were noted for their meticulous record keeping, simply did not keep track of things Irish, whether it be goods or people, unless such was being shipped to England. The disappearance of a few hundred or a few thousand Irish was not a cause for alarm, but rather for rejoicing. Who cared what their names were anyway, they were gone.

The rest of the article is found at:http://khemet.co.uk/irish.html

[Osweo]

Oh my, and all so utterly impartial! :thumbs


A shame. I was hoping for something more substantial than 'Oh my God, the English were so evil!!1111!!'. :(

[Bloodeagle]

Oh my, and all so utterly impartial! :thumbs


A shame. I was hoping for something more substantial than 'Oh my God, the English were so evil!!1111!!'. :(

From the opening statement, I suspect James F. Cavanaugh's ancestors were hijacked from their green Ireland and landed in Barbados by the English.
This might explain his obvious hatred of the English.:)

[blan]

This is a great post.
but the history continues further.
Many of these former Irish and scott slaves got emancipation and formed there own villages and some stand to this day in Barbados.
Also some of there great grand children who are white remain in the country.
White slavery also happned in other islands like Jamaica, and in south America and still some enclaves can be found, such as the bakras people and red legs.

[Great Dane]

It is more importsnt to combat injustices that currently happening, instead of whining about what happened 300 years ago. Nowadays everyone wants to be a victim.

[blan]

Its history not victimization.
These events that took place over 300 years ago shape the islands greatly.
From language, music, culture, and like i said the people who draw there bloodlines from these former slaves and servants.
But i agree we should care about whats happening currently but if we do not understand history then we will be ignorant in the present.



It is more importsnt to combat injustices that currently happening, instead of whining about what happened 300 years ago. Nowadays everyone wants to be a victim.

[Bloodeagle]

It is more importsnt to combat injustices that currently happening, instead of whining about what happened 300 years ago. Nowadays everyone wants to be a victim.
Really! :ranger:

[Wulfhere]

In the same way that the Americans wiped out the Red Indians and stole their land to live on, the English should have dealt with the Irish. Instead our measures were too half-hearted and kind, and so the perennial Irish problem still remains.

[blan]

Is this a joke!!!?? aside from crazy your comment seems off topic with this thread.


In the same way that the Americans wiped out the Red Indians and stole their land to live on, the English should have dealt with the Irish. Instead our measures were too half-hearted and kind, and so the perennial Irish problem still remains.

[The Ripper]

In the same way that the Americans wiped out the Red Indians and stole their land to live on, the English should have dealt with the Irish. Instead our measures were too half-hearted and kind, and so the perennial Irish problem still remains.

What are you doing on this forum (besides trolling)? :coffee:

[Wulfhere]

What are you doing on this forum (besides trolling)? :coffee:

I had hoped I was encouraging people to think, and question their beliefs.

[The Ripper]

I had hoped I was encouraging people to think, and question their beliefs.

So, do you think that you've managed to convince people in this thread that English-British policy in Ireland was too lenient? That the Irish should have been genocided all the way instead of half-way?

[Equinox]

So, do you think that you've managed to convince people in this thread that English-British policy in Ireland was too lenient? That the Irish should have been genocided all the way instead of half-way?

European Preservation needn't imply that all European peoples ought to be preserved.

I do not see such stances to be outside of the orientation of the forum.

[The Ripper]

European Preservation needn't imply that all European peoples ought to be preserved.

I do not see such stances to be outside of the orientation of the forum.

It is a despicable orientation nonetheless and Wulfwere's Anglocentrism is anti-European.

Where were you from again?

[Wulfhere]

So, do you think that you've managed to convince people in this thread that English-British policy in Ireland was too lenient? That the Irish should have been genocided all the way instead of half-way?

You don't get it, do you? I was pointing out the hypocrisy of Irish-Americans who slag off the English but are themselves reaping the benefits of a much worse genocide by living on stolen land and making use of stolen resources.

[The Ripper]

You don't get it, do you? I was pointing out the hypocrisy of Irish-Americans who slag off the English but are themselves reaping the benefits of a much worse genocide by living on stolen land and making use of stolen resources.

Yes, its strange how suddenly so many Irish needed to get out of Ireland, is it not.

[Wulfhere]

Yes, its strange how suddenly so many Irish needed to get out of Ireland, is it not.

Indeed. The potato famine hit the Irish economy quite badly because of its dependence on that product. Fortunately for the Irish, the British Government introduced unprecedented public works and other measures to alleviate the worst of it, Queen Victoria donated a sizeable chunk of her personal wealth, and charity drives across the whole of Britain raised thousands and thousands of pounds.

[The Ripper]

Indeed. The potato famine hit the Irish economy quite badly because of its dependence on that product. Fortunately for the Irish, the British Government introduced unprecedented public works and other measures to alleviate the worst of it, Queen Victoria donated a sizeable chunk of her personal wealth, and charity drives across the whole of Britain raised thousands and thousands of pounds.

British land policy in Ireland is one of the root causes for the famine. Your claims of British generosity and good-will are ridiculous against that background. The Irish were on the verge of starving long before the failed crops, because the British landowners milked them dry.

[Wulfhere]

British land policy in Ireland is one of the root causes for the famine. Your claims of British generosity and good-will are ridiculous against that background. The Irish were on the verge of starving long before the failed crops, because the British landowners milked them dry.

Actually, the landowners were Irish.

[Oinakos Growion]

the landowners were Irish.
Sure. That's why there's so many "Irish noblemen" left in the Republic of Ireland.

Oh wait...

[Wulfhere]

Sure. That's why there's so many "Irish noblemen" left in the Republic of Ireland.

Oh wait...

They didn't leave, they're still there.

[Oinakos Growion]

Of course. I see them every day.

[Equinox]

It is a despicable orientation nonetheless and Wulfwere's Anglocentrism is anti-European.

Let us all join hands, dance, skip and sing, no? The European peoples are the way they are not because of solidarity, but because of cut-throat politics, constant feuds, bitter rivalries and war.


Where were you from again?

We ask these questions in order to better understand the morality, or ethics of the individual. In doing so, we draw upon stereotypes. Will the Dutch be overly sympathetic? The Germans too blunt? The Irish lost in faerie-land? Stereotypes lead to assumptions about moral regulation - how societies reproduce model citizens.

In this instance, it matters not where I am from as I have had very little moral education, and that which I have had, I have been able to easily subvert. My morals and preferences are entirely my own, there is not one single community that I have encountered which could align my moral framework with their own. I am from nowhere.



Would you please point out to me how Anglocentricism is in any way anti-European? Is not a Finnish nationalist Finnocentric? I do not understand your point of view, nor have I ever encountered it before.

[Wulfhere]

Of course. I see them every day.

Lords are not so thick on the ground that you see them every day. I've lived in England my whole life and I only think I've seen one genuine lord in person.

[Bridie]

ancestors were hijacked from their green Ireland and landed in Barbados by the English.
This might explain his obvious hatred of the English.:)Many Australians feel the same way, so I understand...

Shouldn't be a hatred of the English though, rather a hatred for the British social elite and political leaders.

[Treffie]

Many Australians feel the same way, so I understand...


Also Scots, Welsh etc, let's gang up on the English :p

[Oinakos Growion]

Let us all join hands, dance, skip and sing, no? The European peoples are the way they are not because of solidarity, but because of cut-throat politics, constant feuds, bitter rivalries and war
Rivalry, sure. But Europe was mostly built on trade, alliances, cultural exchange, shared ideals (especially when confronted with non-Europeans), even pilgrimage. After all Europe is source of civilisation and enlightenment.


Would you please point out to me how Anglocentricism is in any way anti-European? Is not a Finnish nationalist Finnocentric? I do not understand your point of view, nor have I ever encountered it before.
hm... For example, where I come from, our nationalism is strongly marked by a deep sense of "Europeism", if you can call it that way. It's a history with plenty of war, but also positive contact with the rest of the continent. For me being a nationalist and taking a wider look at Europe comes naturally.
Islanders, on the other hand, sometimes fall on the isolation side of things a bit too much. But that's a well known psychological trait studied by many disciplines.


I've lived in England my whole life
For the looks of it I think you should go for a weekend break to the other island one of these days, even if it's just for the "craic".
Then again... They might not like you. hm. Tricky one.

[Bridie]

Also Scots, Welsh etc, let's gang up on the English :pAh well, I was referring to the "being plucked from their green homeland and taken to a hostile, foreign land forever" kind of thing as being something many Aussies still harbour resentment over. :p Personal legacies aren't dissolved easily.

Despite other injustices, at least you other fellows still live in the land of your roots...

[Wulfhere]

Rivalry, sure. But Europe was mostly built on trade, alliances, cultural exchange, shared ideals (especially when confronted with non-Europeans), even pilgrimage. After all Europe is source of civilisation and enlightenment.


hm... For example, where I come from, our nationalism is strongly marked by a deep sense of "Europeism", if you can call it that way. It's a history with plenty of war, but also positive contact with the rest of the continent. For me being a nationalist and taking a wider look at Europe comes naturally.
Islanders, on the other hand, sometimes fall on the isolation side of things a bit too much. But that's a well known psychological trait studied by many disciplines.


For the looks of it I think you should go for a weekend break to the other island one of these days, even if it's just for the "craic".
Then again... They might not like you. hm. Tricky one.

In England being pro-European is the very antithesis of being pro-English and patriotic. Every single attempt to crush English freedoms has come from Europe - from Napoleon to Hitler to the EU. But it's unfair to call the English "isolationist" - no people that was isolationist would have created the biggest colonial empire in history and sent its people, language and culture to the four corners of the world and founded so many new and important nations.

As for visiting Ireland I'd love to one day - I like the Irish. But I don't need to go to Ireland for the "craic" - we have loads of Irish pubs in Birmingham.

[Oinakos Growion]

the English should have dealt with the Irish. Instead our measures were too half-hearted and kind, and so the perennial Irish problem still remains

I like the Irish
I see. I take it you like them as pets of some sort...


In England being pro-European is the very antithesis of being pro-English and patriotic
It must be annoying you're so close to Europe. Damn. When I studied geography they even told me that England is in Europe. You are so unlucky!


Every single attempt to crush English freedoms has come from Europe - from Napoleon to Hitler to the EU
You mean every other war that the rest of Europeans also endured and from which England also took profit when it could like any other European country?
Poor you.
By the way, that is called "history".


But I don't need to go to Ireland for the "craic" - we have loads of Irish pubs in Birmingham.
I thought they were hard to find with all the Indians and Pakis. Good for you. Enjoy the second hand experience. It'll work just find with the third party information you seem to use to draw your ideas from.


Rhetorical open question: "The Apricity Forum: Cultural & Ethnic European Preservation" - Am I in the right forum?

[The Ripper]

Actually, the landowners were Irish.

So that's why many of them never set foot on Ireland? :confused:

You live in a universe of your own. But hey, what else is new?

[Wulfhere]

I see. I take it you like them as pets of some sort...


It must be annoying you're so close to Europe. Damn. When I studied geography they even told me that England is in Europe. You are so unlucky!


You mean every other war that the rest of Europeans also endured and from which England also took profit when it could like any other European country?
Poor you.
By the way, that is called "history".


I thought they were hard to find with all the Indians and Pakis. Good for you. Enjoy the second hand experience. It'll work just find with the third party information you seem to use to draw your ideas from.


Rhetorical open question: "The Apricity Forum: Cultural & Ethnic European Preservation" - Am I in the right forum?

You just don't understand irony, do you? My comments were not directed against the Irish, but against the Irish-Americans and others who hypocritically hate the British.

England is indeed close to Europe, but there's a crucial 21 miles of sea separating us - our moat.

There's nothing "second hand" about experiencing real Irish people in real Irish pubs (not pseudo-Irish pubs, be it noted). Strangly, there are very few Paki pubs.

[Wulfhere]

So that's why many of them never set foot on Ireland? :confused:

You live in a universe of your own. But hey, what else is new?

But loads of them did set foot in Ireland. In fact they lived there. And they still do.

[Bridie]

You just don't understand irony, do you? My comments were not directed against the Irish, but against the Irish-Americans and others who hypocritically hate the British.
It would only be hypocritical if the Irish migrants to North America were involved in the policies that drove the mass exterminations of natives. I'm not sure if they were or not... but I was under the impression that the Irish were later arrivals and largely formed a rather powerless underclass in North America?



England is indeed close to Europe, but there's a crucial 21 miles of sea separating us - our moat.I agree with you that Europe is an ever-present threat to England. Probably as great of a threat as the British Empire was to average English citizens.

[Wulfhere]

It would only be hypocritical if the Irish migrants to North America were involved in the policies that drove the mass exterminations of natives. I'm not sure if they were or not... but I was under the impression that the Irish were later arrivals and largely formed a rather powerless underclass in North America?


I agree with you that Europe is an ever-present threat to England. Probably as great of a threat as the British Empire was to average English citizens.

Even if the Irish in Amercia were not directly involved in the genocide of the Red Indians, they are still reaping the benefits, simply by living there.

How could the British Empire have been a threat to the English?

[Oinakos Growion]

My comments were not directed against the Irish, but against the Irish-Americans and others who hypocritically hate the British
Let me read again:

In the same way that the Americans wiped out the Red Indians and stole their land to live on, the English should have dealt with the Irish. Instead our measures were too half-hearted and kind, and so the perennial Irish problem still remains.
hm. I don't see it...
Are you somehow trying to ditch the obvious contradiction in your statements?


England is indeed close to Europe, but there's a crucial 21 miles of sea separating us - our moat
Note to self: 'Islands are not part of Continents in the geographical sense. Therefore Japan is not in Asia, and so on'. Riiight.


Strangly, there are very few Paki pubs.
No shit! How come? Is it that hard to get after hours licenses for curry sauce?


There's nothing "second hand" about experiencing real Irish people in real Irish pubs (not pseudo-Irish pubs, be it noted)
And again, you know because you're comparing directly with... what?


You just don't understand irony, do you?
aah you got me mate! You're indeed too smart for me. And if you'll excuse me I'll now go and proceed to whip myself :thumb001:

[Wulfhere]

Let me read again:

hm. I don't see it...
Are you somehow trying to ditch the obvious contradiction in your statements?


Note to self: 'Islands are not part of Continents in the geographical sense. Therefore Japan is not in Asia, and so on'. Riiight.


No shit! How come? Is it that hard to get after hours licenses for curry sauce?


And again, you know because you're comparing directly with... what?


aah you got me mate! You're indeed too smart for me. And if you'll excuse me I'll now go and proceed to whip myself :thumb001:

Fog in Channel, Europe Cut Off! So ran the famous, if apocryphal, headline. That tells you pretty much everything you need to know about whether the English consider themselves European or not, and our attitude to that benighted place.

Pakis don't tend to have pubs because Muslims don't tend to drink booze. But they do have loads of curry and balti houses, some of them even former pubs.

[Beorn]

Fog in Channel, Europe Cut Off!

It was actually 'Fog in Channel, Continent Cut Off'.

[Wulfhere]

It was actually 'Fog in Channel, Continent Cut Off'.

Same thing :)

[The Ripper]

Let us all join hands, dance, skip and sing, no? The European peoples are the way they are not because of solidarity, but because of cut-throat politics, constant feuds, bitter rivalries and war.
For an Englishman (nay, a "Mercian" :D) to speak of a "perennial Irish problem" in this day and age, considering their situation, is a sign that they are not in touch with reality. Europeans would do well to concentrate on the problems that threaten the continent as a whole.


We ask these questions in order to better understand the morality, or ethics of the individual. In doing so, we draw upon stereotypes. Will the Dutch be overly sympathetic? The Germans too blunt? The Irish lost in faerie-land? Stereotypes lead to assumptions about moral regulation - how societies reproduce model citizens.
I'm just interested in what your relation to Europe is. If it is at all.


In this instance, it matters not where I am from as I have had very little moral education, and that which I have had, I have been able to easily subvert. My morals and preferences are entirely my own, there is not one single community that I have encountered which could align my moral framework with their own. I am from nowhere.
You are from nowhere? Then how do you expect to understand European nationalisms?


Would you please point out to me how Anglocentricism is in any way anti-European? Is not a Finnish nationalist Finnocentric? I do not understand your point of view, nor have I ever encountered it before.

I did not say Anglocentrism is anti-European per se, I said W's anglocentrism is anti-European, because it is. He simultaneously dreams of a powerful British empire sticking it to the Irish, French, Germans, and what have you, and of Mercian statehood, partly based on a dead historical entity, partly based on fantastical fiction and new-age nonsense.

And it is my point of view you do not understand. Interesting.

[Bridie]

Even if the Irish in Amercia were not directly involved in the genocide of the Red Indians, they are still reaping the benefits, simply by living there.Not sure that living in the US could be construed as "reaping the benefits". :D More like suffering the consequences.



How could the British Empire have been a threat to the English?
Pity you can't ask my Great-Grandpa who was orphaned as a very young child and consequently sent from living in a workhouse in England across the oceans to Australia as part of the British Child Migrant Scheme. Such a scheme that uprooted, exploited, abused, isolated and stripped basic human rights from innocent, young English children would never have been possible had it not been for the Empire. Nor needed. The purpose of sending these children, who had no loved ones to protect them, to the outreaches of the Empire was to reinforce the Empire's prosperity.

Add to that the thousands upon thousands of poverty stricken people that resorted to theft to survive, at a time in English history when it was commonplace to die of diseases related to malnutrition and starvation, who were conveniently dumped in foreign lands to build a nation for the purpose of economic benefit of a relative few British elite and political control for the British state. Oh, and the political prisoners who suffered the same fate.

Then there is the convenient excuse that the Empire came to represent for rampant immigration and multiculturalism back in the homelands. Soon after WW2 it came to be that the English were encouraged to leave, while the flood gates were opened to the ethnic and cultural foreigners (mostly from within the former British Empire) to enter. Social engineering instilling guilt in the mass English population for deeds done in the name of the British Empire in the past came to be a powerful tool for those who sought to destroy the English nation.

I could go on and on really, but I might go have a cuppa tea instead. :)

[Oinakos Growion]

Pakis don't tend to have pubs because Muslims don't tend to drink booze. But they do have loads of curry and balti houses, some of them even former pubs
Thanks for clarifying that. As I said, you're too smart for me :coffee:
Next time I'm in Birmingham I'll check again and ask the Muslims why is it they don't drink, see if I can expand my education.

[Wulfhere]

Not sure that living in the US could be construed as "reaping the benefits". :D More like suffering the consequences.


Pity you can't ask my Great-Grandpa who was orphaned as a very young child and consequently sent from living in a workhouse in England across the oceans to Australia as part of the British Child Migrant Scheme. Such a scheme that uprooted, exploited, abused, isolated and stripped basic human rights from innocent, young English children would never have been possible had it not been for the Empire. Nor needed. The purpose of sending these children, who had no loved ones to protect them, to the outreaches of the Empire was to reinforce the Empire's prosperity.

Add to that the thousands upon thousands of poverty stricken people that resorted to theft to survive, at a time in English history when it was commonplace to die of diseases related to malnutrition and starvation, who were conveniently dumped in foreign lands to build a nation for the purpose of economic benefit of a relative few British elite and political control for the British state. Oh, and the political prisoners who suffered the same fate.

Then there is the convenient excuse that the Empire came to represent for the justification of rampant immigration and multiculturalism back in the homelands. Soon after WW2 it came to be that the English were encouraged to leave, while the flood gates were opened to the ethnic and cultural foreigners (mostly from within the former British Empire) to enter. Social engineering instilling guilt in the mass English population for deeds done in the name of the British Empire in the past came to be a powerful tool for those who sought to destroy the English nation.

I could go on and on really, but I might go have a cuppa tea instead. :)

No empire in history is free of controversy, but in general they bring civilisation.

[Wulfhere]

Thanks for clarifying that. As I said, you're too smart for me :coffee:
Next time I'm in Birmingham I'll check again and ask the Muslims why is it they don't drink, see if I can expand my education.

They don't drink because Muhammad (May He Burn in Hell) told them not to.

[Great Dane]

It would only be hypocritical if the Irish migrants to North America were involved in the policies that drove the mass exterminations of natives. I'm not sure if they were or not... but I was under the impression that the Irish were later arrivals and largely formed a rather powerless underclass in North America?




The Irish are a very powerful political class in America. They were big supporters of immigration reform in the 1960s that lead to the current population crisis. Have you never heard of the Kennedys?

[Bridie]

No empire in history is free of controversy, but in general they bring civilisation.England did not need an Empire to obtain civilisation. The British Empire was formed as an economic initiative. Fair enough. But the way in which the wealth derived from the Empire was distributed and the number of people who were exploited in the process, made the British Empire destructive to civilisation, rather than instrumental in bringing it.

[Bridie]

The Irish are a very powerful political class in America. They were big supporters of immigration reform in the 1960s that lead to the current population crisis. Have you never heard of the Kennedys?What about back in the days when the natives were being genocided? That is the era that I was referring to. Their social position nowadays is of little consequence.

[Oinakos Growion]

They don't drink because Muhammad (May He Burn in Hell) told them not to.
Damn. This forum is fun.
:)

[Wulfhere]

England did not need an Empire to obtain civilisation. The British Empire was formed as an economic initiative. Fair enough. But the way in which the wealth derived from the Empire was distributed and the number of people who were exploited in the process, made the British Empire destructive to civilisation, rather than instrumental in bringing it.

The English were indeed civilised, but they brought it to others. Are you saying that Australia was civilised before we colonised it, or conversely that it still isn't? Because unless you maintain one or the other of those opinions, you must accept that we brought civilisation there.

[Beorn]

The English were indeed civilised, but they brought it to others. Are you saying that Australia was civilised before we colonised it, or conversely that it still isn't? Because unless you maintain one or the other of those opinions, you must accept that we brought civilisation there.

Australian Aborignes already had a civilisation. The British brought only death and destruction and eventual servitude.

[Wulfhere]

Australian Aborignes already had a civilisation. The British brought only death and destruction and eventual servitude.

They had a culture. To call it a civilisation renders the word civilisation meaningless.

[Bridie]

Are you saying that Australia was civilised before we colonised it,
Sweeeeeeeeeeeeetie!!! The abos still aren't civilised. :p (Seriously.)

Anyway, I don't know why you say "we". I don't think it was a Mercian venture. :D




or conversely that it still isn't?Well, I wasn't going to admit it but..... :embarrassed ;)

[Beorn]

To call it a civilisation renders the word civilisation meaningless.

The word is meaningless.

[Wulfhere]

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeetie!!! The abos still aren't civilised. :p (Seriously.)

Anyway, I don't know why you say "we". I don't think it was a Mercian venture. :D



Well, I wasn't going to admit it but..... :embarrassed ;)

Mercians took part in the venture. Just because I advocate Mercian sovereignty, doesn't mean I deny our history as part of the English state.

[Wulfhere]

The word is meaningless.

If you think that, I suggest you stop using it and use one you do know the meaning of.

[Equinox]

For an Englishman (nay, a "Mercian" :D) to speak of a "perennial Irish problem" in this day and age, considering their situation, is a sign that they are not in touch with reality. Europeans would do well to concentrate on the problems that threaten the continent as a whole.


Instead of caring about genocide in the Balkans, why not direct attention to ensuring Northern Ireland is safe and secure?


You are from nowhere? Then how do you expect to understand European nationalisms?

I have studied in respected institutions. Ask not just where someone is from, but when. Nationalism, as a political force, was far more influential in previous generations. You do not belong to that time, just as I do not. It is impossible to understand European nationalisms without looking into the history of them - and in history, we are all foreigners.


I did not say Anglocentrism is anti-European per se, I said W's anglocentrism is anti-European, because it is.

Anglocentricism from someone that supports a sovereign Mercian state? It is like a drop of piss in a pond. Anglocentricism would not be confined to Mercia, but extend to encompass all England and perhaps even Anglophone countries.


He simultaneously dreams of a powerful British empire sticking it to the Irish, French, Germans, and what have you, and of Mercian statehood, partly based on a dead historical entity, partly based on fantastical fiction and new-age nonsense.

Well, that is not Anglocentricism at all and if the above information is true, you ought to not label him as an Anglocentrist.


And it is my point of view you do not understand. Interesting.

I am confused as to how someone promoting Mercian independence can be labelled as an Anglocentrist. If the man feels so passionately about Mercian sovereignty (evidently he does) then he is actually taking a step towards European cultural renaissance by resurrecting Mercian culture from the conformity of the rest of the "Anglo-zone". How is this any different from the plights of the Basque people?

I am still no closer to understanding your point of view and I suspect that is because you do not fully understand it yourself. Perhaps you could clarify it?

[Beorn]

If you think that, I suggest you stop using it and use one you do know the meaning of.

I am comfortably aware of what the word means. What you don't appreciate is the bias by which you use it.

[Equinox]

Australian Aborignes already had a civilisation. The British brought only death and destruction and eventual servitude.

"Australian Aborigines" is touted as a unified collective. It is the same as Cornwall or Mercia to England.

The unification of the collective leads to destruction of traditions and conformity. It is no wonder there are many Aboriginal languages which are either under threat or extinct already.

Hunt or be hunted.

[Wulfhere]

I am comfortably aware of what the word means. What you don't appreciate is the bias by which you use it.

Trappings of civilisation include cities, specialised classes, writing, law, centralised government, etc. etc.

[Beorn]

Trappings of civilisation include cities, specialised classes, writing, law, centralised government, etc. etc.

There you go then. That is your bias interpreting what a civilisation should be.

[Wulfhere]

There you go then. That is your bias interpreting what a civilisation should be.

Just like it's my bias that a chair should be something you can sit on? It ain't bias mate, it's just what the word means.

[Beorn]

Just like it's my bias that a chair should be something you can sit on? It ain't bias mate, it's just what the word means.

You're getting confused. I suggest you look up the word bias before attempting to apply it towards such objects like a chair.

A chair was created in order to sit down. It has many differing aspects by which it can be used, but each involves sitting down upon the chair.

[Wulfhere]

You're getting confused. I suggest you look up the word bias before attempting to apply it towards such objects like a chair.

A chair was created in order to sit down. It has many differing aspects by which it can be used, but each involves sitting down upon the chair.

No, it's you who's getting confused, by assuming that the word "civilisation" carries some sort of moral judgment, and therefore needs to be redefined. In fact it's a perfectly neutral way of describing a society with certain features.

[blan]

his profile seems to state that he was born in the center of the sun.

perhaps in short all this means is to much acid and heavy drugs back in the day.

quote from- Equinox

We ask these questions in order to better understand the morality, or ethics of the individual. In doing so, we draw upon stereotypes. Will the Dutch be overly sympathetic? The Germans too blunt? The Irish lost in faerie-land? Stereotypes lead to assumptions about moral regulation - how societies reproduce model citizens.

In this instance, it matters not where I am from as I have had very little moral education, and that which I have had, I have been able to easily subvert. My morals and preferences are entirely my own, there is not one single community that I have encountered which could align my moral framework with their own. I am from nowhere.



Would you please point out to me how Anglocentricism is in any way anti-European? Is not a Finnish nationalist Finnocentric? I do not understand your point of view, nor have I ever encountered it before.[/QUOTE]

[Great Dane]

What about back in the days when the natives were being genocided? That is the era that I was referring to. Their social position nowadays is of little consequence.

The current natives, the European-Americans, are being genocided through social policies favored by the Irish Catholic establishment. The social position of the Irish in America today is of great consequence.

I find it odd that you seem to have more empathy for Sibero-Americans then for people who are your racial kin.

Btw, if the Sioux and Iroquois were genocided then who are those people with the casinos scattered across America?

[blan]

What a shame a great topic was derailed by supporters of Genocide and others wanting division with the people of european decent,
then it turns into a war of semantics.
such silly in fighting.

[Murphy]

Boring :rolleyes2:..

[blan]

what would you prefer to talk about jon


Boring :rolleyes2:..

[Murphy]

what would you prefer to talk about jon

Oh, it isn't the topic that is boring.. it's Wulfhere and his usual trolling antics that are boring.

[blan]

i agree here is something on topic, this is on the irish of Montserrat, its a small island in the west indies and is rooted in irish culture

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=0QHYFXDGf4Y


Oh, it isn't the topic that is boring.. it's Wulfhere and his usual trolling antics that are boring.

[blan]

there better link many Irish from Montserrat were servants and slaves

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=0QHYFXDGf4Y

[Equinox]

his profile seems to state that he was born in the center of the sun.

perhaps in short all this means is to much acid and heavy drugs back in the day.



An interesting theory, though quite unfounded (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=213243&postcount=8).



Civilization (or Civilisation) is a term used to describe a certain kind of development of a human society.[1] A civilized society is often characterized by advanced agriculture, long-distance trade, occupational specialization, and urbanism. Aside from these core elements, civilization is often marked by any combination of a number of secondary elements, including a developed transportation system, writing, standards of measurement (currency, etc.), contract and tort-based legal systems, great art style, monumental architecture, mathematics, sophisticated metallurgy, and astronomy....

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilisation)

[blan]

just playing around man. relax


An interesting theory, though quite unfounded (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=213243&postcount=8).




Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilisation)

[Óttar]

You just don't understand irony, do you? My comments were not directed against the Irish, but against the Irish-Americans and others who hypocritically hate the British.
Irish Americans hate the British? That's news to me. :coffee:

[Osweo]

Sure. That's why there's so many "Irish noblemen" left in the Republic of Ireland.

Oh wait...


They didn't leave, they're still there.
Wulfhere is an objectionable person in many ways, but he's right here, to a great extent.

I was doing some genealogical research on my Irish kin, and found some interesting material on the Grants, an originally Norman and traditionally Protestant family in northern Tipperary. Many left for America and Australia, especially due to changing circumstances, political and economic, but there are still representatives (converted to Catholicism and assimilated) in the same little town they've been living around for centuries.

If anyone's particularly interested in this case study, the link is here;
http://www.grantonline.com/grant-family-genealogy/Tipperary/Moyaliffe/grants_of_moyaliff.htm

And, considering that the Grants got 'off the boat' in the 1100s, I think you CAN describe them as 'Irish'. THat's certainly how they described themselves.

So that's why many of them never set foot on Ireland? :confused:
The absentee landlords were a glaring abuse, sure, but they were probably a minority of landlords in numerical terms. I don't know about relative acreage, though.

It would only be hypocritical if the Irish migrants to North America were involved in the policies that drove the mass exterminations of natives. I'm not sure if they were or not... but I was under the impression that the Irish were later arrivals and largely formed a rather powerless underclass in North America?
Some were there in the beginning too. And many took part in 'naughty' activities, like any American of those days. My own distant cousins had a plantation with slaves in Alabama, even... and there are blacks today there, bearing my rare Irish surname! :D :eek: :p

Australian Aborignes already had a civilisation... That is your bias interpreting what a civilisation should be.
Beorn, no.
:rolleyes:

[Bridie]

The current natives, the European-Americans, are being genocided LOL. I wouldn't worry too much, Great Dane... there are enough of you breeding like rabbits over there to prevent any great reduction in numbers. I guess there is something to be said for religious extremism afterall...



I find it odd that you seem to have more empathy for Sibero-Americans then for people who are your racial kin.European Americans are not my racial kin. But it is not a matter of empathy, to be honest. (Although I do feel empathy for any of God's creatures that are suffering.) It is a matter of common sense and moral integrity.



Btw, if the Sioux and Iroquois were genocided then who are those people with the casinos scattered across America?
The descendants of the few who managed to survive.

[Beorn]

Beorn, no.
:rolleyes:

Yes. It is a subjective word with little actual meaning.

[Osweo]

Yes. It is a subjective word with little actual meaning.
It's not. It's a straightforward term for large and elaborate state-structures with urbanism and all the other things that have already been mentioned. Why be contrary for the mere sake of it? :rolleyes:

[Beorn]

Why be contrary for the mere sake of it? :rolleyes:

Why is it everyone assumes I do this? I am not doing this to stretch an argument over a tedious period of time, it is because often I actually believe what I write.

Yes, there is times I do that but that is easily spotted. For instance British-English or questioning posts about labelling a taxonomy subject as half something and half English.

[Bridie]

It's not. It's a straightforward term for large and elaborate state-structures with urbanism and all the other things that have already been mentioned. Why be contrary for the mere sake of it? :rolleyes:Bah! It's all relative anyway. :p

The Aussie abos did/do have a civilisation, just not a very advanced/sophisticated one.

[Osweo]

The Latin word for "city" was urbs, but a resident was civis. Civitas seems to have replaced urbs as Rome (the ultimate urbs) lost its prestige.

It's intimately related to town life.

No towns, no civilisation.

Abos had cultures, as do every human group.

[Bridie]

It's intimately related to town life.

No towns, no civilisation.

Abos had cultures, as do every human group.Well, I was always under the impression that civilisation referred to an advanced level of social organisation... of relative degrees. For example, the Maori were more civilised than the Australian aborigines, but compared to the Chinese, both were uncivilised. Unless, of course, one throws advancement of moral reasoning and discourse into the social organisation mix. In this case, the degree to which the Chinese could be considered civilised would surely be somewhat compromised...

[blan]

there are many more vids about white slavery and it pisses alot of blacks off when they hear it.
Many blacks like to play the slavery card because they think it makes them special in terms of unjust treatment in History.
This afrocentric crazy posted a vid in response to white slavery and claims no white was a slave and there treatment was not as bad so we have no right to speak of there pain,

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=_OiseOalmEc

however i doubt most will be able to watch her video because she goes off topic so often and it takes her 6 mins to get to the point

[The Ripper]

Instead of caring about genocide in the Balkans, why not direct attention to ensuring Northern Ireland is safe and secure?

Wat. :confused:


I have studied in respected institutions. Ask not just where someone is from, but when. Nationalism, as a political force, was far more influential in previous generations. You do not belong to that time, just as I do not. It is impossible to understand European nationalisms without looking into the history of them - and in history, we are all foreigners.

You have studied in respected institutions. I am no foreigner to my own history - my grandparents lived it and they live on in me. Further more, there are some of us who are trying to develope the European nationalist tradition, to continue it. Frankly I don't quite understand what you are trying to say.


Anglocentricism from someone that supports a sovereign Mercian state? It is like a drop of piss in a pond. Anglocentricism would not be confined to Mercia, but extend to encompass all England and perhaps even Anglophone countries.

You obviously don't know W.


Well, that is not Anglocentricism at all and if the above information is true, you ought to not label him as an Anglocentrist.
He is a terribly confused Anglocentrist. Better?


I am confused as to how someone promoting Mercian independence can be labelled as an Anglocentrist. If the man feels so passionately about Mercian sovereignty (evidently he does) then he is actually taking a step towards European cultural renaissance by resurrecting Mercian culture from the conformity of the rest of the "Anglo-zone". How is this any different from the plights of the Basque people?

It is very different from the "plights" of the Basque people, mainly because the Basques exist.


I am still no closer to understanding your point of view and I suspect that is because you do not fully understand it yourself. Perhaps you could clarify it?

What exactly requires clarification? It is not I, or my point of view, which is confusing.

[Bloodeagle]

there are many more vids about white slavery and it pisses alot of blacks off when they hear it.
Many blacks like to play the slavery card because they think it makes them special in terms of unjust treatment in History.
This afrocentric crazy posted a vid in response to white slavery and claims no white was a slave and there treatment was not as bad so we have no right to speak of there pain,

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=_OiseOalmEc

however i doubt most will be able to watch her video because she goes off topic so often and it takes her 6 mins to get to the point

On page 2 of the article:

Treatment

Although the Africans and Irish were housed together and were the property of the planter owners, the Africans received much better treatment, food and housing. In the British West Indies the planters routinely tortured white slaves for any infraction. Owners would hang Irish slaves by their hands and set their hands or feet afire as a means of punishment. To end this barbarity, Colonel William Brayne wrote to English authorities in 1656 urging the importation of Negro slaves on the grounds that, "as the planters would have to pay much more for them, they would have an interest in preserving their lives, which was wanting in the case of (Irish)...." many of whom, he charged, were killed by overwork and cruel treatment. African Negroes cost generally about 20 to 50 pounds Sterling, compared to 900 pounds of cotton (about 5 pounds Sterling) for an Irish. They were also more durable in the hot climate, and caused fewer problems. The biggest bonus with the Africans though, was they were NOT Catholic, and any heathen pagan was better than an Irish Papist. Irish prisoners were commonly sentenced to a term of service, so theoretically they would eventually be free. In practice, many of the slavers sold the Irish on the same terms as prisoners for servitude of 7 to 10 years.

[Equinox]

Wat. :confused:

You imply that we all ought to unite and combat common "enemies". One such thing that is touted as being a threat to Europe is the Islamisation of the Balkans. What I was trying to convey, was that it is better for the United Kingdom to reinforce the border in Northern Island as opposed to wage wars and involve their military in any other operations whatsoever.

It is of little consequence if there is a threat to the outskirts of the European continent. This is of little to no interest to [U]any[U] sort of nationalist within the British Isles. Anyone that says differently is not a nationalist, but a pan-nationalist or some such.




You have studied in respected institutions. I am no foreigner to my own history - my grandparents lived it and they live on in me. Further more, there are some of us who are trying to develope the European nationalist tradition, to continue it. Frankly I don't quite understand what you are trying to say.

Is this an appeal to genetic memory?

What on earth is the European nationalist tradition? Are you saying that there is such thing as a European nationalist?




You obviously don't know W.


He is a terribly confused Anglocentrist. Better?

I am impartial to Wulfhere. What I am after is consistency of argument. On which count you are both doing not too well. Him with perverted Anglocentricism and you with a seemingly illogical pan-European nationalism.




It is very different from the "plights" of the Basque people, mainly because the Basques exist.

And Mercians do not?




What exactly requires clarification? It is not I, or my point of view, which is confusing.

This is getting boring. Please answer the questions above and I hope that can be the end of it.

[Wulfhere]

Wat. :confused:



You have studied in respected institutions. I am no foreigner to my own history - my grandparents lived it and they live on in me. Further more, there are some of us who are trying to develope the European nationalist tradition, to continue it. Frankly I don't quite understand what you are trying to say.



You obviously don't know W.


He is a terribly confused Anglocentrist. Better?



It is very different from the "plights" of the Basque people, mainly because the Basques exist.



What exactly requires clarification? It is not I, or my point of view, which is confusing.

Actually, since the Mercians are the true English (Angles), there is no contradiction between Anglo-centrism and Mercian nationalism.

[Beorn]

Actually, since the Mercians are the true English (Angles), there is no contradiction between Anglo-centrism and Mercian nationalism.

The "true English" are the English.

[Wulfhere]

The "true English" are the English.

The true English - the original English - are the Angles. The term English was only later extended to include the Saxons in the south, and later still to the Danes in the north.

[Beorn]

The "true English" are the English. The Angles are Angles.

[Bridie]

Actually, since the Mercians are the true English (Angles), there is no contradiction between Anglo-centrism and Mercian nationalism.You have me intrigued with all this Mercian business, Wulfhere. What about those of Northumbria and East Anglia. Would they not be considered by you to be true English also? (Since those were the other Angle kingdoms.)


http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/schools/primaryhistory/images/anglo_saxons/kings_and_laws/anglo-saxon_map_kingsandlaw.jpg

[Wulfhere]

You have me intrigued with all this Mercian business, Wulfhere. What about those of Northumbria and East Anglia. Would they not be considered by you to be true English also? (Since those were the other Angle kingdoms.)


http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/schools/primaryhistory/images/anglo_saxons/kings_and_laws/anglo-saxon_map_kingsandlaw.jpg

That's absolutely correct, they were indeed Angles. However, those areas were later colonised by the Danes, a fact still reflected in their dialects and their general "Northern" culture. It's true that eastern Mercia was too, but Angle culture survived intact in western Mercia.

Historically it is also worth mentioning that the Mercian monarchy was descended directly from that of the Angles. There's a lot more info on our website, linked below.

[Bridie]

There's a lot more info on our website, linked below.

Oh dear. I just had a look at your website. I don't suppose you expect anyone to take that sort thing seriously, do you? :blink: :D

[Wulfhere]

Oh dear. I just had a look at your website. I don't suppose you expect anyone to take that sort thing seriously, do you? :blink: :D

We have over 400 members on our postal mailing list and two fortnightly meetings in the Birmingham area.

[Oinakos Growion]

Sure. That's why there's so many "Irish noblemen" left in the Republic of Ireland

They didn't leave, they're still there


Wulfhere is an objectionable person in many ways, but he's right here, to a great extent.

I was doing some genealogical research on my Irish kin, and found some interesting material on the Grants, an originally Norman and traditionally Protestant family in northern Tipperary. Many left for America and Australia, especially due to changing circumstances, political and economic, but there are still representatives (converted to Catholicism and assimilated) in the same little town they've been living around for centuries
I didn't say there were none, I said not so "many" ;) Like there's Anglicans left and all.
Sure there were the "noble peers" and all that, and some of those families are left around with very interesting family histories. Of course. What I meant is that in the current social panorama of Ireland that means nothing; it's just that, nice family stories. Some might have inherited some land or nice house (often transformed into a b&b run by the actual families; or "castles to rent" for tourists). I know a few cases personally. Actually, by definition nobility means nothing in a Republic.
Now that you mention Tipperary that's indeed a curious case, because it probably is one of the counties with the biggest footprint of the "old days" and Protestant communities. If I may I'd recommend this book:
Butler, D. (2005): South Tipperary 1570-1841. Religion, Land and Rivalry (http://www.fourcourtspress.ie/product.php?intProductID=369). Four Courts Press.
which explains an important period in the history of the county. It helps to better understand the area today (methinks).
:)

[Bridie]

We have over 400 members on our postal mailing list and two fortnightly meetings in the Birmingham area.Oh well... I suppose 400 loonies in a country of over 60 million people isn't so concerning. :coffee:

[Wulfhere]

Oh well... I suppose 400 loonies in a country of over 60 million people isn't so concerning. :coffee:

And growing quickly too. People are sick of London politics, and want a fresh start.

[Bridie]

And growing quickly too. People are sick of London politics, and want a fresh start.And the virgin females are sick of wearing clothes and having orgasms also? :D

[Wulfhere]

And the virgin females are sick of wearing clothes and having orgasms also? :D

This is a return to our ancestral Pagan traditions.

[Beorn]

http://thenakedpheasant.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/fat-man-at-computer.jpg

[Great Dane]

LOL. I wouldn't worry too much, Great Dane... there are enough of you breeding like rabbits over there to prevent any great reduction in numbers. I guess there is something to be said for religious extremism afterall...It is the Hispanic immigrants who are breeding like rabbits here.



European Americans are not my racial kin. Why not?
But it is not a matter of empathy, to be honest. (Although I do feel empathy for any of God's creatures that are suffering.) It is a matter of common sense and moral integrity. But you live in Australia. You have your own history with the Aboriginals. If it is a question of moral integrity you would turn over your house to an Aboriginal family and move to the British Isles.



The descendants of the few who managed to survive.

There were quite a few survivors. There was no genocide. Indians didn't have immunity from European diseases. They mainly died of natural causes, something that would have happended eventually through human contact. There are more Indians in the United States and Canada in 2010 then there was in 1492. That goes against the definition of genocide.

[blan]

This is insane. Whites against whites.
It seems White nationalism and any other form of white pride is bound to fail.
It would be against Caucasians of the east and then southern europe and then celtic against nordic and on and on and on.
This is the same as what happens with blacks in rawanda and Seirra Leone
One tribe does not like another tribe and its war.
This thread was about a interesting topic and now its just a argument with all kinds of insanity talking about wiping out entire races and ethnic groups,
If anyone supports the killing and wiping out a whole race they are no friend to me but the in fighting here is absurd.
Say what you like about blacks and others of color but at least they can organize.
Nation of Islam and others are getting there jobs done while all we have are people on the internet who make outrageous comments and fight about off topic garbage.

[Equinox]

This is the same as what happens with blacks in rawanda and Seirra Leone
One tribe does not like another tribe and its war.


Say what you like about blacks and others of color but at least they can organize.


:coffee:

[blan]

wow your cool as a cumber for a 99 year old man that lives in the center of the sun.
Seriously though amazing response keep up the good work.
2 can play this game.. :thumb001::):thumb001:;):eek::love::lol00002::tape d-shut::icon_yell::icon_yawn:


:coffee:

[Murphy]

This is insane. Whites against whites.

This is reality.


It seems White nationalism and any other form of white pride is bound to fail.

Of course it is.

[blan]

so what do you suggest?


This is reality.



Of course it is.

[Murphy]

so what do you suggest?

I suggest people start taking pride in their nation and their people once more, and stop with fancies of viewing our race as some monolithic bloc when even our own ethnicities are not so.

I suggest people start viewing Capitalism for what it is. I suggest people get down on their knees and pray to Almighty God, because I have no doubt He's pissed off.

I suggest people get into Church.

That's what I suggest.

[blan]

excellent suggestions.


I suggest people start taking pride in their nation and their people once more, and stop with fancies of viewing our race as some monolithic bloc when even our own ethnicities are not so.

I suggest people start viewing Capitalism for what it is. I suggest people get down on their knees and pray to Almighty God, because I have no doubt He's pissed off.

I suggest people get into Church.

That's what I suggest.

[blan]

:coffee:

if you would take what i said in context it would make sense you.
i said blacks in africa, i was talking about tribal mind sets, i was not talking about black groups within the west, such as the nation of Islam ect.
they seem much more effective at uniting there people than WN based groups or many of the people here who try to turn everything into in fighting and creating witch hunts every other day

[Mordid]

Whites against whites.


What insane me is that anyone against other white are basically Slav and Southern European.

[Stars Down To Earth]

I just had to necromance this thread, because Wulfhere and his ideas for a sovereign Mercia are just awesome. Well done, mate. With a stunning website and a political platform like that, it's impossible for the Mercian independence struggle to fail:



The head of state of Mercia, or matriarch, shall have the title of Folk Mother. She shall be declared the legal successor to the ancient kings of Mercia. The Folk Mother may overturn any decision of the Lord Chamberlain or Witan, and may issue any order to safeguard the constitution. Her official residence shall be located in what is currently the Chamberlain Memorial, Chamberlain Square, Birmingham, for which city she shall also serve as High Priestess. She shall appoint, and may dismiss, High Priestesses for the other shires and boroughs.

http://www.enterprisegames.com/Chainmail_Girl.jpg

(EDIT: Wulfie, stop retro-editing and deleting your pics. I added a new one, that looks the same as yours.)

[GeistFaust]

The poor Irish always suppressed and oppressed by the evil English. The English just did not know how to leave people alone. If only the Scottish and Irish unified to fight the British now that would have been epic.