Why is there little Baltic/East Euro in southern Italians & Sicilians, but there is in Greeks?

[Sikeliot]

No one has yet given a satisfactory answer as to why even in places like Ionian islands and the North Aegean, there is a Baltic/East European genetic element that is low in southern Italians and Sicilians, and why the amount of admixture on other runs called "North European" is higher in nearly any part of Greece, save some of the islands.

This is perplexing because most Greek settlements to southern Italy came from the mainland, not the islands; also that paternal haplogroups do show a Greek input. So where is the Baltic genetic element in southern Italians?

Does this mean southern Italians have no actual Greek ancestry? If it is really due to Slavicization why is it present in places in Greece that never had Slavs?

[Mark]

I would assume it's because some ancient Greek people may have intermingled with their northern Balkan neighbors.

[wvwvw]

It's New Year, have some mercy on us!

[Roy]

I think that Greek islands received at some point migration of Greeks from mainland just after Slavic expansion. It's the easiest way to answer.

[Sikeliot]

Because what I think is that the North Euro that is in Sicilians and southern Italians is native to there, and is not the result of Normans (otherwise you'd be assuming it was even lower in ancient Greek times, and thus the discrepancy between Greeks and southern Italians in terms of North Euro would be even more unrealistically large). Thus I have to wonder where the discrepancy comes from that is there today.

[Thrax]

Maybe the ancient southern Italians and Sicilians had more than they do today (and the greeks less than they do today) but throughout the years the percentages changed due to other migrations.

[Casandrinos]

Because Sicilians and south Italians don't have much Greek ancestry

[Sikeliot]

Because Sicilians and south Italians don't have much Greek ancestry

Then the same must be true of Cretans because they are genetically similar.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Because my father! He was a combination of Vandal and a Norman vikking! Imagine the atrocities he did with my mother!

R.I.P. COWARD!

[solaris]

you could've spread your balto-polish genes all over sicily, but you are attracted to your own gender.

[Sacrificed Ram]

It could be a miracle like occur in some countries, in places where were close to american military bases, the babies miraculously birth blondies and redhaired! (sometime blacks)

[Black Wolf]

I think you already know the answer to this question. It is probably because Greeks and especially mainland Greeks have more recent admixture from the North via Balkan Slavs and maybe some other groups who have origins and Eastern Europe. Either way these old ADMIXTURE calculators although being interesting are now pretty much outdated. There is a new wave of them already here and probably more to come such as the newest Eurogenes K8 test.

[Stimpy]

Baltic is probably the oldest genetic component in all of Europe and it has probably previously been more widespread. Maybe it's just survived in Greece more than Italy.

[Sikeliot]

I think you already know the answer to this question. It is probably because Greeks and especially mainland Greeks have more recent admixture from the North via Balkan Slavs and maybe some other groups who have origins and Eastern Europe.

That answer once made sense until I saw Greeks from some islands scoring similarly, like Chios. Unless that could be explained by fairly recent mainland ancestry, due to repopulation or whatnot.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Maybe because during some time Southern Italy was more engaged in the commerce of slaves while such mentioned areas are more engaged in the fight to survive...

Seriously, Is sad "work with the old bones", but if We want be impartial with science we will need say about so sad thematics.

[Sikeliot]

Highly unlikely as it is quite low in the islands (some of whom, like crete, have been proven to have a freakish amount of continuity) yet it reaches 20% or more on the mainland. Perhaps a small part of it existed 3000 years ago but it was clearly heavily reintroduced later during the migration period.

It's low in the islands but still higher than in southern Italy, except for the Dodecanese and some Cretans who get a similar amount.

[Sikeliot]

Some parts of the north aegean did get repopulated later. It's natural that Crete has a pretty low amount, for the reasons I mentioned.

Someone before tried to argue that the baltic in the mainland is due to the indo-european invasion, same way with the high ANE on mainland greece. (and higher WHG, according to the recent K8 test) Until we get more samples from the southern balkans (the ones we have so far show the steppe people to become overwhelmingly more EEF/southern the more south you go, just look at the bulgarian ones) that point towards that, my money is on slavs.

So therefore you think that if people from some islands are scoring similar to mainland Greeks it means that the islands got repopulated from the mainland.

Therefore, do you propose that all of the Balkans was once more 'Sicilian-like' (for lack of better term) than it is today?

[Sacrificed Ram]

Southern Italians had more admixtures to dilute such component.

[Black Wolf]

So therefore you think that if people from some islands are scoring similar to mainland Greeks it means that the islands got repopulated from the mainland.

Therefore, do you propose that all of the Balkans was once more 'Sicilian-like' (for lack of better term) than it is today?

Initially during the Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic much of the Balkans was probably WHG like. Then after Neolithic farmers moved in the Balkans became very Near Eastern like. Then during the Bronze Age and later migrations of mixed groups from the North and East brought back some WHG and also introduced some ANE. Migrations also during that time from Anatolia and the Near East probably brought back more Near Eastern and maybe even some ANE.

[Black Wolf]

Exactly. I'm pretty sure that a chunk of the ANE is due to population movements from the east into the balkans during the iron age and bronze age collapse. The amount of high ANE cannot be explained otherwise this far south.

I would say that most likely most of the ANE in Greece and the Balkans is related to the migrations of Indo-European tribes.

[Black Wolf]

Perhaps but Renfrew was certainly partially right. The double intrusion from the north then the east by indo-european speakers and their phenotypical difference was supported by anthropologists from the '50s onwards and with a lot of hard evidence. Now with those ANE reconstructions looking like hardcore armenian highlanders (true MENAs) I'd say that quite a bit of that component came from the east while the one from the north reintroduced WHG as well.

ANE reconstructions looking like hardcore Armenian highlanders?

[Black Wolf]

Wrong choice of words. Vesuvian had posted some reconstructions from the north caucasus dated to the PIE era in a thread. I'll try to find it.

Any reconstruction of the original ANE people should like like Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic Siberians. Whatever they actually looked like.

[Faklon]

Highly unlikely as it is quite low in the islands (some of whom, like crete, have been proven to have a freakish amount of continuity) yet it reaches 20% or more on the mainland. Perhaps a small part of it existed 3000 years ago but it was clearly heavily reintroduced later during the migration period.

It's interesting nevertheless that many South Islands get IBD shares with Balkans,Russia and Poland.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?146213-Greek-IBD-Sharing-on-23andme-Top-5-Countries-of-Ancestry-for-the-Greeks-on-my-list

Charles among else finds a "Corded" type that he puts his possible origins around the black sea.

This:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?131244-The-Slavs-in-Greece&p=3208345&viewfull=1#post3208345


Some parts of the north aegean did get repopulated later.

Based on dialect affinity?

Anyway,it's assumptions that come close to classical Greek mythology.

Ancient 'nuff.

[Black Wolf]

Not so sure yet. We're still pretty far from identifying what the true, full-blooded originals looked like.

Indeed...We really do not know what the first Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic Siberians looked like.

[Faklon]

Didn't he put his in the neo-med category? I remember you posted once that he never found proper cordeds but hybrids. Angel and Coon put the corded type with both northern and eastern migrations.


He separated the Irano-med types and put it under neo-med from what I understood.



Rapports et différences. Nous n'avons trouvé que 5 sujets qui, en Grèce,
correspondissent à la diagnose de Coon (1939), que nous rappelons brièvement :
« Grande taille (167-174) ; corps linéaire mais musclé ; peut-être plus lourd que celui
des Mégalithiques ; crâne très allongé et haut ; relief sus-orbitaire et musculaire
moyens à forts ; face très haute ; nez leptorhinien, souvent proéminent ».
Angel (1942) attribue à ce type, 44 sujets, parmi lesquels se trouvent, outre
les cinq véritables cordés, des sujets intermédiaires entre les cordés et les néo
méditeranéens,

Under 44 skulls of Angel,he puts 5 as pure Corded and the rest between Corded and neo-meds.


Wikipedia and some stuff from Dimopoulos about settlements from asia minor to the bigger islands.

And migrations from Anatolia will bring more Baltic(random variable) elements?

[Faklon]

Greeks from western anatolia, at least on 23andme (from Sikeliot's thread so yeah) do score almost as much north euro as mainlanders, 20-25%. So I fail to see why not.

As for the rest, I meant this post of yours

http://puu.sh/dCbky.png

In which he found no corded skulls in Argos but that might've been at a later date. (late bronze/early iron)

Maybe.I will try to reread it later.


Greeks from western anatolia, at least on 23andme (from Sikeliot's thread so yeah) do score almost as much north euro as mainlanders, 20-25%. So I fail to see why not.


Source?

I only have seen 1-2 Anatolians that were slightly "north"/mainland-shifted than Cretans,still in a close spectrum.

[Faklon]

Sikel has 3000 a-dna threads about greeks. Fuck if I remember which one.

On the IBD one, anatolians tend to have poland or russia quite often as well.

Sikeliot posts one results and declares 500 theories.


On the IBD one, anatolians tend to have poland or russia quite often as well.

This is more interesting but you can see that South Aegean can get it too.

Imo,to say that immigrants from Asia Minor raised the "Baltic"(random variable again) of North Aegean is a bit too much.

There is dialect affinity of course between Central-Northern Greece and Lesbos,Imbros,Limnos,Samos.
http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/modern_greek/studies/dialects/thema_a_1_1en/


2. Northern

The northern area is characterised by high vowel loss and consists of: the northern mainland (except for Western Epirus), Lefkada, northern Evia, Thassos, Samothraki, Imbros, Lesbos, Limnos, Skiros, Skiathos, Skopelos, Alonissos (and the other smaller northern Sporades). There is considerable regional variation within this area in the extent to which this rule is carried through.
2a. Samos

Samos also has high vowel loss. This is classed as a separate sub-area solely because of its geographical separation from area 2.

[Dorian]

Indeed...We really do not know what the first Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic Siberians looked like.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?124685-Classify-interesting-Greeks

[Black Wolf]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?124685-Classify-interesting-Greeks

What lol?

[Vesuvian Sky]

The Yamna guys as Reptile pointed out turned out to be Armenian + Karelian or in more neutral terms half ENF + 'Mesolithic' (presumably a mix of WHG +ANE to = 'Mesolithic').

Here are some of the threads relating to their taxonomy and admixture:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?94924-Classify-Aryans-Yamna-Culture-Men

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?150846-Guess-More-ANE-ENF-or-WHG

Regarding pure or purest ANE people, right now the individual that scores highest ANE is 'Malta Boy':

http://i61.tinypic.com/mvgh1s.jpg

He course dates back to 24,000 BC and is of the R lineage. If you run his oracle on MDLP K23b this is how he ranks according to f-stats:

Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Tubalar @ 58.145641
2 Khant @ 59.781586
3 Mansi @ 60.346027
4 Udmurd @ 67.725456
5 Ket @ 68.638206
6 Selkup @ 69.783745
7 Hakas @ 73.969345
8 Bashkir @ 75.684319
9 Tatar-Siberian @ 77.050774
10 Mari @ 77.755081
11 Chuvash @ 79.401367
12 Saami @ 80.591766
13 Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan @ 81.109665
14 Chuvashs @ 81.114220
15 Turkmen_Afghan @ 81.119324
16 Altaian @ 81.865051
17 Tajik_Yagnobi @ 81.921104
18 Komi @ 82.281502
19 Uzbek @ 82.988045
20 Tatar @ 83.201286

So out of 620 present day populations used in the run, he is closest to Tubulars who are closely related to Tofalars of Irkutsk Oblast:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/%D0%93%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%B0_%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5% D0%BD%D1%8F%D1%80%D1%96%D0%B2_%D0%A2%D0%BE%D1%84%D 0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8_%D0%86%D1%80%D0%BA%D1 %83%D1%82%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%B3%D1%83%D0% B1._%D0%9D%D0%B8%D0%B6%D0%BD%D1%8C%D0%BE%D1%83%D0% B4%D1%96%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%B F%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%96%D1%82_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%87_XX_%D 1%81%D1%82_%D0%A0%D0%95%D0%9C.jpg

Modern day populations with the most ANE are Karitiana Indians:

http://legacy.joshuaproject.net/profiles/photos/p14025.jpg

I wouldn't be surprised if based on the above, early/proto-ANE = Paleo-mongoloid.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

No one has yet given a satisfactory answer as to why even in places like Ionian islands and the North Aegean, there is a Baltic/East European genetic element that is low in southern Italians and Sicilians, and why the amount of admixture on other runs called "North European" is higher in nearly any part of Greece, save some of the islands.

This is perplexing because most Greek settlements to southern Italy came from the mainland, not the islands; also that paternal haplogroups do show a Greek input. So where is the Baltic genetic element in southern Italians?

Does this mean southern Italians have no actual Greek ancestry? If it is really due to Slavicization why is it present in places in Greece that never had Slavs?

Haven't we finally put the imaginary slavicization which is somehow most prominent in mountain refugeums to rest once and for all by now? This never happened.

South Italians and Sicilians probably used to have this, but it has been washed away by the multicultural nature of the roman empire, taking hundreds of thousands of north african slaves for example, moorish conquests etc. etc.

For some reason there is an obsession to paint intrusions like that have always been there, and treat what's obviously an older and pervasive layer as though it is something new. Stuff that's spread out = been there foreever. Newcomer = all in one lump and has no mixing at edges.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Well, it's proven. And by stuff you posted as well. (see Hellenthal) And it's mostly prominent in the north and the mainland (obviously), the rest is mostly banter among the greeks.


No it isn't. There's no proof of any slavicization in most places of greece, quite the opposite we know they never went to most of them at all. The r1a etc' are not in the same forms or mixtures as in slavs, that alone 100% disproves this idiotic bullshit. It's a clinal north south progression which implies slowly washing it away over time. Not something that suddenly arrived.



As in what for example? Even the (uncontaminated and presumed contaminated both) iron age thracians scored quite a bit southwest asian and caucausus and little northern european, especially compared to modern greeks. Clearly someone introduced more of the later some time after-and we know who the best canditates are and have their footprints.

This straw man is really fucking hilarious, but enough is enough. No one ever said there are literally huge amount of northern HG DNA in greece. This is Hellenas logic.

The only DNA they have is from one group. It's very often the case there is 'elite dominance' and also slavery, so basically it means dick. Even if it did mean something for thracians as a whole which is probably a big meta-ethnicity in reality, it does not really mean anything for ancient Greeks let alone modern ones.

It's also worth noting that there is 'west asian' DNA dominant in the oldest european DNA sequenced so far, 37k years back. So I would be careful about taking any of these labels seriously in the sense of being indicative of origins due to where they lie today. When analyzed for population groups, neanderthals showed as 100% african, to give you an idea of how easily these tests can be biased. y-dna and mtdna and genes for eye and skin color are much more reliable, but we don't have enough ancient samples to say a whole lot yet.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Well, it's proven. And by stuff you posted as well. (see Hellenthal) And it's mostly prominent in the north and the mainland (obviously), the rest is mostly banter among the greeks.


No it isn't. There's no proof of any slavicization in most places of greece, quite the opposite we know they never went to most of them at all. The r1a etc' are not in the same forms or mixtures as in slavs, that alone 100% disproves this idiotic bullshit. It's a clinal north south progression which implies slowly washing it away over time. Not something that suddenly arrived.



As in what for example? Even the (uncontaminated and presumed contaminated both) iron age thracians scored quite a bit southwest asian and caucausus and little northern european, especially compared to modern greeks. Clearly someone introduced more of the later some time after-and we know who the best canditates are and have their footprints.

This straw man is really fucking hilarious, but enough is enough. No one ever said there are literally huge amount of northern HG DNA in greece. This is Hellenas logic.

The only DNA they have is from one group. It's very often the case there is 'elite dominance' and also slavery, so basically it means dick. Even if it did mean something for thracians as a whole which is probably a big meta-ethnicity in reality, it does not really mean anything for ancient Greeks let alone modern ones. That greeks are heavily mixed is just fact. You can't even point to a single dominant y-dna clade. Obviously this had to have NOT been the case back in the time of ancient greeks. The only question is which are the 'real' greeks.

It's also worth noting that there is 'west asian' DNA dominant in the oldest european DNA sequenced so far, 37k years back. So I would be careful about taking any of these labels seriously in the sense of being indicative of origins due to where they lie today. When analyzed for population groups, neanderthals showed as 100% african, to give you an idea of how easily these tests can be biased. y-dna and mtdna and genes for eye and skin color are much more reliable, but we don't have enough ancient samples to say a whole lot yet.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I can't seem to edit, so some mod please delete the first post and this one. Keep the middle one. Sorry.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

To put this in perspective this exists all through europe (as you'd expect) except in south italy, sicilay, south greece, and most of spain. I WONDER WHY. WHAT IS THE COMMONALITY? :lol:

[Damião de Góis]

To put this in perspective this exists all through europe (as you'd expect) except in south italy, sicilay, south greece, and most of spain. I WONDER WHY. WHAT IS THE COMMONALITY? :lol:

What does exist everywhere except in those places?

[Voskos]

What does exist everywhere except in those places?

Neanderthaloid Nordicists