Three dead as Greece protest turns violent

[Vulpix]

Three dead as Greece protest turns violent (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8661385.stm)


BBC NEWS: At least three people have been killed in the Greek capital as protesters set fire to a bank during a general strike over planned austerity measures.
The fire brigade said three bodies were found inside the bank in Athens. Two other buildings are also on fire.
Petrol bombs were thrown at police who responded with pepper spray, tear gas and stun grenades.
Protesters are angered by spending cuts and tax rises planned in return for a 110bn euro (£95bn) bail-out for Greece.

Parliament is to vote on the measures by the end of the week.
Measures include wage freezes, pension cuts and tax rises. They aim to achieve fresh budget cuts of 30bn euros over three years, with the goal of cutting Greece's public deficit to less than 3% of GDP by 2014. It currently stands at 13.6%.
Outside parliament, a group of protesters rushed up a flight of steps, taunting MPs to come out and calling them "thieves".
Riot police forced them back, but right next to parliament, others groups set buildings on fire - including a tax office.

[...] The general strike is the third to hit Greece in as many months.

Meanwhile, the German parliament has begun considering the bail-out plan for Greece.
Chancellor Angela Merkel urged MPs to back the emergency loan package agreed by European finance ministers at the weekend.
It requires Germany to pay the largest proportion of the loans.
"Quite simply, Europe's future is at stake," she said.
The EU has agreed to provide 80bn euros (£69bn) in funding - of which around 22bn euros would come from Germany - while the rest will come from the International Monetary Fund (IMF). [...]

[Absinthe]

It's started... Watch what happens from now on :....

[The Lawspeaker]

Usually when the first blood flows there are two possibilities: either people will come to their senses and start looking for a compromise.. or it turns REALLY nasty.
And now that I see what Absinthe here said: I think it will be the latter.

[Wölfin]

:S I have a feeling as Absinthe and Asega said that things are going to get ugly...

[Absinthe]

Yes, that is what I meant...

[Absinthe]

Okay, exclusive news from Athens:

I just read on a Greek website that the 4th floor of the Ministry of Finances is on fire.

"Coincidentally" this is were the paper reports from recent investigations containing data about massive tax evasion and frauds are....

It's not very likely that a firebomb was thrown from the street up to the 4th floor so my only guess can be that somebody deliberately set this floor on fire... :shocked:

[The Lawspeaker]

NRC.nl (http://www.nrc.nl/buitenland/article2538379.ece/Drie_doden_bij_rellen_Athene), one of the biggest newspapers confirms the three dead and has a series of pictures included. The scene is tale-telling. Anarchists/communists vs riot police and every method in and outside the book is being used. Including throwing molotov cocktails in police lines.

May 5, 2010 may go into history as Black or Bloody Wednesday..

[Absinthe]

NRC.nl (http://www.nrc.nl/buitenland/article2538379.ece/Drie_doden_bij_rellen_Athene), one of the biggest newspapers confirms the three dead and has a series of pictures included.

Holy crap, in photo 02/08 does it say that a fireman is standing next to one of the three that died? So that's the actual corpse in the picture? :eek:

[Cato]

The shit is hitting the fan everywhere these days. Is the collapse of the global welfare state looming on the horizon?

[The Lawspeaker]

Holy crap, in photo 02/08 does it say that a fireman is standing next to one of the three that died? So that's the actual corpse in the picture? :eek:
Yes.

[Absinthe]

To make matters worse, apparently one of the three dead was pregnant. So it's actually four dead. :(

[julie]

This is bad!I'm speachless

[The Lawspeaker]

This is bad!I'm speachless
Greece has always been a basket case. In effect they are the canary of the European Union.:)
When trouble is brewing they are the first to see the results.

[Agrippa]

The shit is hitting the fan everywhere these days. Is the collapse of the global welfare state looming on the horizon?

Global welfare state?

Funny huh...

Its the final stage for the next turn of the Plutocratic Oligarchy which has to make a major reform anyway, but not because there are "unbearable welfare states" but unbearable interest rates, speculative bubbles and overcapitalisation, like in every financial-interest rate cycle in the last centuries, with or without social security and welfare states.

Thats the game of the plutocracy and thier fraud.

I just hope what will come, Greece is just a small start, might actually be not even that, since they can further overstretch the financial cycle and keep the people calm that way in most larger states, will be the end of the high finance and the Plutocratic Oligarchy.

As anybody who knows something about that: The next cycle will start not peacefully, there will be dead people and dead people will be anyway. I just hope it will be for good and the plutocrats, including such prominent clans like the Rockefellers and Rothschilds, will be disempowered.

Because the last cycles were always used for crisis, wars and new structures which were in favour of them.

Actually the internet is the only hope because it spreads informations so fast, that its not as easy to cheat the whole public as in the past, especially after the 2nd World War, political correctness and the manipulated mass media started to keep critical, fundamntel opposition voices down everywhere.

As for Greece, I hope just, if they start to try to overturn the system, what I dont think right now, but we might all have hopes, its not being down by mindless Marxists, but those which know what its really about, be the superficially right or left, they must know the background and real national interests on the longer run.

They should learn from Kyrgyzstan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jrx49tfrfJk&feature=related

Best all Europeans do, at least if its about how to do it, because if we dont do it in the next years, the means of control and manipulation of the people, in the totalitarian surveillance state, will be much more elaborated and the plutocrats and their menials won't hesitate to use it.

This soft political climate, as if it would be about nothing in the politics of Europe, as there wouldnt be our very future, freedom and social security at stake, must come to an end.

The more radical the climate and the more anger in the people the better. We need that for a real change or we can just clap our hands for the plutocrats, there is really no other choice.

Do we want a change and at least a chance to make it better, or not. And if we want it, we can't trust the major parties and politicians, for sure not the bank managers and plutocrats, but we need a revolutionary atmosphere.

The only thing I real fear is that the plutocrats even calculated that in their plans and for their advantage, like the terrorist panic for bunnies...

[Absinthe]

In effect they are the canary of the European Union.:)
When trouble is brewing they are the first to see the results.

So true. We're the EU's beta-testers...

[SwordoftheVistula]

Crazy stuff. Where does it go from here-will security be stepped up, or do the police not have the power to control the riots? If the police can't maintain control, will they bring in military or police from other parts of the country?



Global welfare state?

Funny huh...

Its the final stage for the next turn of the Plutocratic Oligarchy which has to make a major reform anyway, but not because there are "unbearable welfare states" but unbearable interest rates, speculative bubbles and overcapitalisation

They wouldn't have needed all that if not for going into debt to fund the welfare state.

[Agrippa]

Crazy stuff. Where does it go from here-will security be stepped up, or do the police not have the power to control the riots? If the police can't maintain control, will they bring in military or police from other parts of the country?

Actually in Europe, at least in the FRG, a law was passed allowing forces from other countries to operate in Germany if needed and sending police forces elsewhere.

They just prepare for what will come when the financial-interest cycle will come to an end - which will happen when the plutocrats decide so, at a poing of time in which they think they can control events and get through with their "reforms" against the interests of the people.


They wouldn't have needed all that if not for going into debt to fund the welfare state.

Oh yes, the USA being in such a debt because of their great welfare system :thumbs up
That was a good one! :D

Go back to the history class and learn again. Even long before something like a welfare state existed debts existed and oftentimes the politicians were tricked into them, to get control over them.

The Rothschilds f.e. started to become a great plutocratic clan in Germany, in the corrupted state of Hessen-Kassel.

Its ruler loaned his well-trained army units to those who paid the most. Thats the way they got to America in the war of Independence, you might know that.

The Rothschilds were introduced to the court by a corrupted soul named Buderus, then he started to bring out his first bond. Soon he grew as the exclusive banker of the house of Hessen-Kassel until Napoleon came and he had the money of Hessen-Kassel largely in his hands, with the sovereign away.

He sent his sons to Britain among other nations, where this small bastard bought himself into the ruling class and became big with British war efforts and finally the "bet on Waterloo".

That was one story of the beginning of one of those corrupted families which still are among the highest ranking plutocrats, but the story of corruption and debts in Europe is much older, and became virulent with the founding of the Bank of England.

You can't come out of your debt in a debt-based money system in which the state has to pay interest rates for his own money. That system of financial Capitalism is to its core a sick perversion from the start and completely outdated - if there would be a policy in the interest of the people, by now.

Also the derivate trade being a new bubble which just came up for easier manipulation, maxial profits to the end of the cycle and finally the option to prolong it.

If you dont see that this is a systemic failure which lies much deeper and that a social welfare system and group oriented policy is the only real choice for any decent human being, I'm sorry, you're lost.

The FED-system in the USA must not just implode, it must vanish completely, not being revived in a new form in Europe or all of North America - probably the whole world. It was and is since 1913 like cancer, a dangerous cancer growing in the USA and the Western world.

This is the real problem, not a fair and just economic and social system, which is the base of wealth and a decent life for the people, rather than that perverted Liberalcapitalism of the plutocrats, which is just a threat to it.

[SuuT]

Oh yes, the USA being in such a debt because of their great welfare system :thumbs up
That was a good one! :D

The U.S. is still remarkably liquid if considering it as asset heavy, with the best evidence of this being the fact that markets world-wide are still investing in U.S. futures, commodities and currency. The Trifecta.

As bad as U.S. fiscal policy is, it is, in my opinion, second to none in the world as concerns entitlements that can be removed with little overall change in the quality of life of its citezens. Remove even one plank in the system of any European nation and I bid you welcome to Greece.

[ikki]

It's started... Watch what happens from now on :....

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/uutiset/op.asp?id=2129002 exploit the exploiters ;)
maybe 500-1000e(?) for a original news article with pics.. but better begin by forcing that contract from them :p

[Agrippa]

The U.S. is still remarkably liquid if considering it as asset heavy, with the best evidence of this being the fact that markets world-wide are still investing in U.S. futures, commodities and currency. The Trifecta.

As bad as U.S. fiscal policy is, it is, in my opinion, second to none in the world as concerns entitlements that can be removed with little overall change in the quality of life of its citezens. Remove even one plank in the system of any European nation and I bid you welcome to Greece.

The FED does for years now what the EZB is not allowed to, namely buy up its own US-bonds if there is a need!

Thats like a system which eats its own shit, that won't work forever, especially not in a debt based - interest rate system, because who is supposed to pay that rates?

If the dollar loses its appeal, I wrote about the ressource-based value of the dollar in many fields already, then this won't work out any more. Its the main security behind this scheme.

The Capitalisation of the world is already beyond every reason, you could buy up the whole world various times with all that digital money around!



Its absurd, everybody knows that who cares for the issue, the derivates in particular made the speculative market explode in a totally destructive way.

If the EZB would have done that, no problem at all, but for that the rules in Europe would have to be changed and it might result in a FED-system 2.0 in Europe.

Even though the European politicians are totally corrupted, some still dont want that, but its the only thing close to whats needed in the moment the plutocracy would allow, thats the problem.

In the US they did everything to prolong the financial-interest rate cycle, it started with the removal of the Glass-Steagall Act latest, which was a good law, a really good law, absolutely necessary especially for the situation in the USA.

What happened now with Goldman Sachs & Co. wouldnt have possible otherwise, especially if looking how they betrayed their own customers.


The bill that ultimately repealed the Act was introduced in the Senate by Phil Gramm (Republican of Texas) and in the House of Representatives by Jim Leach (R-Iowa) in 1999. The bills were passed by a Republican majority, basically following party lines by a 54–44 vote in the Senate[12] and by a bi-partisan 343–86 vote in the House of Representatives.[13] After passing both the Senate and House the bill was moved to a conference committee to work out the differences between the Senate and House versions. The final bill resolving the differences was passed in the Senate 90–8 (one not voting) and in the House: 362–57 (15 not voting). The legislation was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on November 12, 1999.[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act

That says something about your "parties" too, tweedledee and tweedledum I mean...

The whole deregulation of the markets, financial markets in particular, had to result in huge bubbles in the current debt-interest rate based system, that was inevitable. On the other hand it allowed an even greater confusion and cover-ups of financial manipulations, that was what they seem to have looked for.

Now you have the results and their next moves are everything but friendly to the interests of the people...

[SuuT]

The FED does for years now what the EZB is not allowed to, namely buy up its own US-bonds if there is a need!

Thats like a system which eats its own shit, that won't work forever, especially not in a debt based - interest rate system, because who is supposed to pay that rates?

If the dollar loses its appeal, I wrote about the ressource-based value of the dollar in many fields already, then this won't work out any more. Its the main security behind this scheme.

The Capitalisation of the world is already beyond every reason, you could buy up the whole world various times with all that digital money around!



Its absurd, everybody knows that who cares for the issue, the derivates in particular made the speculative market explode in a totally destructive way.

If the EZB would have done that, no problem at all, but for that the rules in Europe would have to be changed and it might result in a FED-system 2.0 in Europe.

Even though the European politicians are totally corrupted, some still dont want that, but its the only thing close to whats needed in the moment the plutocracy would allow, thats the problem.

In the US they did everything to prolong the financial-interest rate cycle, it started with the removal of the Glass-Steagall Act latest, which was a good law, a really good law, absolutely necessary especially for the situation in the USA.

What happened now with Goldman Sachs & Co. wouldnt have possible otherwise, especially if looking how they betrayed their own customers.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act

That says something about your "parties" too, tweedledee and tweedledum I mean...

The whole deregulation of the markets, financial markets in particular, had to result in huge bubbles in the current debt-interest rate based system, that was inevitable. On the other hand it allowed an even greater confusion and cover-ups of financial manipulations, that was what they seem to have looked for.

Now you have the results and their next moves are everything but friendly to the interests of the people...

I am aware of and agree with all of that. What I'm doing a poor job of saying is that there is less relative digital/fake wealth floating around within American fiscal boundaries than there is in European markets: It's a far more diverse portfolio in America that is ultra-heavy in tangible assets. The best evidence for that is the reality that if Germany, France, all of Scandinavia and the U.K were to financially implode, America would slip into a depression but would survive. Whereas if America were to financially implode, the whole of the world would revert to a barter economy. :icon_ask:...which might not be so bad.

[Don]

None of the dead were responsible of the problematic situation reached in Greece.

As usual, the people on charge and responsible of these tragic events, don't pay with their money, life quality neither with their lives the consequences of their incompetence.

[Agrippa]

I am aware of and agree with all of that. What I'm doing a poor job of saying is that there is less relative digital/fake wealth floating around within American fiscal boundaries than there is in European markets: It's a far more diverse portfolio in America that is ultra-heavy in tangible assets. The best evidence for that is the reality that if Germany, France, all of Scandinavia and the U.K were to financially implode, America would slip into a depression but would survive. Whereas if America were to financially implode, the whole of the world would revert to a barter economy. ...which might not be so bad.

I think you somehow confuse the financial system and its dependencies, all build around the FED-system with the real economy.

In fact, it would be rather the other way around, at least if Europe would be allowed an independent and adequate policy.

Because if you look at how the structures in the USA being ruined, you get an idea of what would be left without the imports from the rest of the world.

The trade balance deficit of the USA is a catastrophy and only works out because of this financial-dollar fraud, once that is over, the USA would slip into something like a 3rd World economy with a huge, largely oversized military apparatus and some high level sectors, obviously nothing which could happen in a peaceful and nice way you might guess...

The real asset of the USA is the country itself, a large country with many good soils, large free space, many ressources available, basically a rich country. Just imagine Germany would have had that...

Thats the real thing Americans can build upon which f.e. Germany and Japan can't, which would be otherwise much better off, because if looking at the basic structures, the USA are coming down - but at least are not as likely to starve to death with that country...

Its absurd, but the whole trade balance issue being related to the fact, that the USA use the dollar like a drug for an addict, the other countries depend on the money flow, even if they get little else in return but dollars with which they can primarily buy ressources, which they could buy with another currency - like their own - without this US dominance.

The problem is the lack of independent financial structures in Europe which are a real alternative, but thats something I want to fight for.

[SuuT]

You are talking too many "what if" scenarios and hypotheticals for me to be able to follow you adequately. I'm no fan of the global Plutocracy either, but your increasing verve of dislike for America's part in the play is indicative of a fundamental misunderstanding of modern Macroeconomics.

As you say, the fundamental resource of America is it's country, i.e. the diversity of it's tangible assets portfolio. The trade balance deficit of the USA is a catastrophy, yes, and only works out because of a (not the) financial-dollar fraud, yes, but what you fail to realise is when the numbers are crunched for speculative wealth relative to actual holders of speculative assets not only does Europe (if considered as a whole, including Scandianavia) stalwartly outweigh holdings of this digital wealth, it is in much greater peril to market fluctuations than the U.S. for that very reason as we are seeing come to fruition right now. America only owns roughly 50% of it's own speculative wealth...lol that's what's funniest about economic America bashing, in my opinion: My European bretheren own more of America per person than AMericans:D, but AMerica is somehow the bastion repository of and for the economic enslavement of the western world. I'm sorry, but that's not how the numbers crunch, for the 'home' of the Plutocracy in the entire western world (primarily) - those are it's boundaries. America is not the heart of the problem, but it is a main artery of a macroeconomic system that is wrapped firmly around everyone. And, as had been stated, Greece is the canary in the European mine: Europe is now set to face the wave that hit the US and those who think that that already happened are sadly mistaken and unprepared.

[Agrippa]

Well, there were various frauds with the dollar and US-financial system already. In fact, the Oil crisis at the end of the 1970's just took away wealth and investments from the the FRG and Japan, they had to spend a large fraction of their dollar reserves for the ressources.

Many countries today really work, in a macro-economic sense if you prefer that, to a large degree for nothing in return to keep up the American bubble. FRG, Japan and China really finance that war machine and plutocratic power, indirectly at least, thats so perverted about it, especially if talking about a "free market policy".

Yes, it didnt start in the USA, thats true, nor are the USA the only infected country, but they are the primary host for the parasite right now and there were and are various characteristics of the system and people, which existed even before that, which made it much easier for the plutocrats to make it their new than f.e. in France, Germany or Russia, what we might sum up with Continental Europe.

Its still largely the USA and GB and without those two the system would surely crumbly right now.

Looking at things as they are, the USA are the main mercenary, the military arm, centre of propaganda and manipulation, the financial system - in some respects together with GB, especially the City of London and show one of the lowest possibilities to really challenge the system.

So simple put, they are the force which keeps it up, defends it and will be a great obstacle for the freedom of the other people and nations. Thats just how it is.

The whole health care debate, the constant economic Liberalism, the Evangelicals and connection of Creationists with "Conservatism" etc., all of that shows a fundamental problem of the USA, namely the inability to really change their mind.

The Germans now are a lousy bunch, I know that better than you, so are many other European people, but once you get through to them with a message and show them the truth - which I dont know if it will ever happen in my short lifetime - then you can be sure there will be a correct and STRONG reaction. It will be about principles, for the group and the personal interests together.

In the USA the people are just fatalistic, partly because of the Christian-Calvinist and Liberalcapitalist indoctrination, they not only believe in the "politically correct crap" but really in THIS Capitalist system to a large degree.

People saying that "the state" is responsible and a "small state" could be a solution, back to Christian and constitution values, the Individualist freedom etc., heck where the hell are they living, in a paleolithic cave?

Alex Jones is just a perfect example for what I mean, he got so many things right, he is, with all his faults, really an enrichment, but in the end he too being stucked in the American disease. As if "Nazis and Fascists" have anything to do with the Rockefellers-Rothschilds and Plutocratic Oligarchy.

In fact, those were the only groups which really posed a threat to their rule in the last centuries and he lumps them together for the average American-Joe as if what happens now being a "Nazi-plan". Thats so ridiculous, its close to the "Dinosaurs played with children 5000 years B.C."

As small as European groups of resistance might be, they have an attitude which is in way "more sane and complete", which the Americans seem, as a rule and with all the exceptions, simply lack. I dont know for how long, or every reason, I can just observe it. They can only work in a sane way on small, local level. As soon as it comes to ideology, to a more complete worldview and their greater interests, they seem to have been beaten on the head too often.

If I speak with "re-educated" Europeans, they have a lot of crap in their heads too, but thats more of the sort "normal crap", like Hedomatism, rationalised Cultural Marxism, meaningful Christian Conservatism, real Marxism etc.
All things I despise, but they can be fixed by fixing some logical fallaces, ruining the manipulation and putting things straight again.

Thats much harder in the US of A, and while there are individually very great persons there, the situation as a whole seems to be so completely fucked up, that I have more trust in a change coming from Brazil or Argentina than the USA. The only thing I expect from the USA is pressure, pressure, pressure coming from the plutocrats, a demand for money, people, power, money, people, power and finally that they might throw bombs on those which dont comply to the Plutocratic New World Order.

I just hope I'm wrong, but I see little reason right now. So the USA are a problem for Europe, whether I like that fact or not.

[Troll's Puzzle]

So true. We're the EU's beta-testers...

what are you talking about? the whole EU is a beta test.
the only thing 'special' about Greece in that is, as the weakest link, it popped first.

Next in line: Spain, Portugal, Italy

ie: 'if you're Med you're Dead' ;)

[Absinthe]

ie: 'if you're Med you're Dead' ;)

That should be printed on T-shirts and souvenirs...

[Agrippa]

what are you talking about? the whole EU is a beta test.
the only thing 'special' about Greece in that is, as the weakest link, it popped first.

Next in line: Spain, Portugal, Italy

ie: 'if you're Med you're Dead' ;)

Great Britain and Ireleand are not that much better off actually.

The Dutch have harsh social cuts too.

It spreads around I guess, but the British have more "international" support it seems and are a financial centre by themselves, while Greece is really just a small fish so to say and therefore an even easier target for the speculators.

Interestingly Japan has a deficit of 200 percent - but the rating agencies react still rather moderately, because "there is trust"...

[SwordoftheVistula]

European banks and governments have much more invested here than vice versa. Also, people have more understanding of economics here, and until recently the major businesses and industries were not nearly as controlled by the government.

I'm not going to post huge essays by Hayek here, the concepts are very simple:

If someone, including a government, does not go into debt, they do not need to worry about what interest rates are being charged.

Regulations and taxes inhibit economic growth. A country like Greece, where opening a simple business such as a hotel takes 10, 20 years, maybe not at all, is not going to have much economic growth from new businesses. If it costs more to ship a load from one part of the country to Athens than from Athens to London, you are not going to have a very efficient economy. The less economic growth you have, the harder it is for a government to get tax revenue, and the more people come to the government looking for support, so the more likely it is that the government will not be able to balance its budget and go into debt. If a company has to go through a huge long process with a labor board to lay off workers who are no longer needed, they are far less likely to hire people in the first place, and unemployment will be higher. If you've got a huge amount of people on state employment, state pensions, and state benefits, and not much economic activity in the private sector to support all this, you are headed for disaster. All these financial shenanigans can prop up the system for a while, but not forever.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Great Britain and Ireleand are not that much better off actually.

The Dutch have harsh social cuts too.

It spreads around I guess, but the British have more "international" support it seems and are a financial centre by themselves, while Greece is really just a small fish so to say and therefore an even easier target for the speculators.

Interestingly Japan has a deficit of 200 percent - but the rating agencies react still rather moderately, because "there is trust"...

Japan still makes stuff. Toyota, Honda, Suzuki, Panasonic, Sony, etc. Even if some of the low level manufacturing is now done in China, the nexus is still in Japan, R&D and so on. What is actually produced in those other countries? What R&D is there? What companies and industries are based out of there? Not much

[Troll's Puzzle]

Great Britain and Ireleand are not that much better off actually.

Ireland and Iceland are population small countries with overgrown financial sectors which collapsed, exposing the rest of the country.

The same is true of Great Britain, which has the most overblown financial sector of anyone, otherwise it wouldn't be in such a bad position

the med countries, on the other hand, collectively dug their own graves without needing help from an overblown financial sector (although that is also a part of some of their problems especially spain).


It spreads around I guess, but the British have more "international" support it seems and are a financial centre by themselves, while Greece is really just a small fish so to say and therefore an even easier target for the speculators.

what international support has Britain had?

the British bank already has to buy the British govts. bonds to prop it up.
it magik'd about as much as the entire british deficit into existance only a few months to do so, and will probably do so again.

when it's britains turn (after the meds, maybe before some of them, depends), watch that 'outside support' (whatever it was) vanish into thin air...


Interestingly Japan has a deficit of 200 percent - but the rating agencies react still rather moderately, because "there is trust"...

Japan 'makes stuff'

Greeks retirement age is 53... what do they make?

personally I don't like Ouzo, but they can send Feta and Olives, that's be super :wink

[RoyBatty]

what are you talking about? the whole EU is a beta test.
the only thing 'special' about Greece in that is, as the weakest link, it popped first.

Next in line: Spain, Portugal, Italy

ie: 'if you're Med you're Dead' ;)

Net tovarish. Portugal ain't on da Med innit :P

[Absinthe]

Greeks retirement age is 53... what do they make?

Not true (anymore)...

Back in the days retirement age was 60 (or 58?) for men, and 55 for women.
50 for women who at the time of retirement had children under the age of 18 (and there's many of them considering that due to financial difficulties Greeks are having kids in their 40s).

Now the limits have been progressively raised, I think it is 65 for men and 60 for women and it's about to become 65 for both.

[Troll's Puzzle]

Net tovarish. Portugal ain't on da Med innit :P

Geography Nazi!!! :mad:

but Portugal is racially med ;)

(+ not insignificant negroid :eek:)


Not true (anymore)...

Back in the days retirement age was 60 (or 58?) for men, and 55 for women.
50 for women who at the time of retirement had children under the age of 18 (and there's many of them considering that due to financial difficulties Greeks are having kids in their 40s).

Now the limits have been progressively raised, I think it is 65 for men and 60 for women and it's about to become 65 for both.

OK

but they still have to pay the pension for those guys who retired before 60 (probably quite a lot...)
pension is crippling for all western countries, it can only be much, much worse for countries with even sillier pension laws (like greece) which is part of why they are ending up on the chopping block first ;)

(in fact the western pensions are scams, the govt. simply took the money from them, I understand that in the USA's case the 'social security set-aside' money actually never 'really' exists???)

now, you can tell me about another med practice... that being paying people more month's salary then there are months in a year... :lightbul: ;)

[RoyBatty]

Geography Nazi!!! :mad:


Almost. Geography Commie! :thumb001: :cool:

[Absinthe]

now, you can tell me about another med practice... that being paying people more month's salary then there are months in a year... :lightbul: ;)

It's a kind of alternative calculation - but the end result is equally as bad.

14 paychecks might sound as a luxury but when the average Greek salary is 700euro/month, a total of 14 paychecks (given as Christmas bonus, and Easter/summer vacations bonus split in half) is still

~816, 6 euros/month for the average Greek.

(14x700 divided by 12).

Which still makes it the lowest wages in EU whereas the cost of living is equally high as the rest of the EU.

I guess it was arranged in such a way, (not evenly but as three seasonal bonuses) for the money to flow into the market during the respective seasons.

I mean, if the average Greek knew he was getting a measly 816,6 euros/month then he would definitely hold his horses during the holidays.

But when this little extra money comes in the form of, e.g. a Christmas bonus of 700 euros given all at once then the Greek would go on a spending spree just to delude himself that for just those days of the year he is not miserable.

Now, cutting those extras puts automatically the majority of the middle-class work force below the poverty line.

Because no one can live with 700 euros per month in a country as expensive as Greece, without the additional aid (which served as a savings opportunity for most of the people).

[SwordoftheVistula]

I understand that in the USA's case the 'social security set-aside' money actually never 'really' exists???)

Not really. For year, more $ was paid in to Social Security than was paid out, and they used that money to pay for other things. That's how we had 'balanced budgets' in the 90s, took money from Social Security to cover the deficit in the other parts of the budget. The 'Social Security trust fund' consists of promissory notes from the US govt to pay back the $ they took from Social Security (all of it). So obviously, when it comes time to take money out of the 'Social Security trust fund', it will have to come from the main part of the US govt budget. So really it was just an accounting trick to make the budget look better than it was, and at the same time claim to have a 'Social Security trust fund'


Not true (anymore)...

Back in the days retirement age was 60 (or 58?) for men, and 55 for women.
50 for women who at the time of retirement had children under the age of 18 (and there's many of them considering that due to financial difficulties Greeks are having kids in their 40s).

Now the limits have been progressively raised, I think it is 65 for men and 60 for women and it's about to become 65 for both.

Can't the government workers retire after 30 years?

[Agrippa]

Ireland and Iceland are population small countries with overgrown financial sectors which collapsed, exposing the rest of the country.

In Ireland its worse than that, structures are not that stabilised neither.


The same is true of Great Britain, which has the most overblown financial sector of anyone, otherwise it wouldn't be in such a bad position

Yeah, but this financial sector is in plutocratic hands, might I just think about Jersey, City of London etc., they are part of the Neoliberal expoitation, should be taken down anyway.


the med countries, on the other hand, collectively dug their own graves without needing help from an overblown financial sector (although that is also a part of some of their problems especially spain).

Well, guess which billions were put into useless projects, ruining the landscapes, water, environment, house prices going up through the roof for common people, then attracting so many foreigners that Spain now closes up to the rest of Europe in just some years with its proportion of non-integrable foreigners.


what international support has Britain had?

the British bank already has to buy the British govts. bonds to prop it up.
it magik'd about as much as the entire british deficit into existance only a few months to do so, and will probably do so again.

Well, the EZB is not allowed to do so and if it would have done, Greece would be still intact...


when it's britains turn (after the meds, maybe before some of them, depends), watch that 'outside support' (whatever it was) vanish into thin air...

Britain is the Neoliberal core land, they made up "offshore banks and financial institutes" for the worst of the West, what do we expect? They did nothing right in the last centuries, nothing good for the people of their own country, nor that of others.

Britain though will get help, it has some of the great plutocrats in its country, they won't destabilise it completely...

The Brits like the USA had a good structure once, they ruined it by themselves by ruining their local companies, working class, job market and domestic market.

We all know what they did hopefully, but Brits still vote for Labour. Ok, the British have a shitty voting system too, otherwise the BNP and more radical social parties would have popped up and being more successful.

But seriously, the USA and GB just followed the Neoliberal dogma and didnt care for healthy structures and the long term economic development at all, everything being under TOTAL plutocratic control, even worse than on continental Europe, even much worse, they spread that venome to the continent. Just think about what they call a health care on the island - that was even an argument for some American maniacs to be against state health care, as if a state system must be that crappy...

Now they have in some areas similarly shitty structures like the Greeks, but the difference is they had better ones already, could have made more out of it, whereas Greece has some real problems even by its terrain and local structures.

Yes, Greeks did many other things wrong, thats their fault, but at least countries like Germany had just to pay for them and they didnt forced them into a perverted system and wrong development.

But oh well, there will be an election soon, lets see what the British vote for this time...

Hope for the best and expect the worst, as with Greece and the Eurozone, the plutocrats and Neoliberal policies.

[Troll's Puzzle]

Well, the EZB is not allowed to do so and if it would have done, Greece would be still intact...

...for a little while at least
...but not for too long (especially not once they started having to do the same for the other wops & then everybody else ;))



Britain is the Neoliberal core land, they made up "offshore banks and financial institutes" for the worst of the West, what do we expect? They did nothing right in the last centuries, nothing good for the people of their own country, nor that of others.

Britain though will get help, it has some of the great plutocrats in its country, they won't destabilise it completely...


I'm unconvinced - the rats might have good reasons to leave Britian when it sinks. Why must they stay there? what more 'use' could they have with a degenerated place that makes and has nothing anymore, not even the finance, which they can and will move when need be?
it's not like they didn't move around much in the past ;)

I'm not fully convinced about all this either, because there is also the prospect of China & Asia 'getting their shit together' which would leave the west in just 'the shit' (eg forming an pan-Asian bond market, something which is possibly going to happen and which would make Britain & worthless & maybe even j00 york, at the very least weaken it)
then the all-powerful, all history-controlling 'plutocrats' suddenly look very silly and not so powerful

if somehow this is stopped, or China is 'dragged down' too, then it gives more credibility to the theory, for sure ;)
for example, china has all its money in dollars, which is 'scary' for the US but also for china because if that's all it has when the $ goes worthless then they are screwed too
but other then this, I don't see what hooks the crumbling west has in there

I hope that does happen too, crumbling it away will mean a european flower can grow through the rouble :)



But seriously, the USA and GB just followed the Neoliberal dogma and didnt care for healthy structures and the long term economic development at all, everything being under TOTAL plutocratic control, even worse than on continental Europe, even much worse, they spread that venome to the continent. Just think about what they call a health care on the island - that was even an argument for some American maniacs to be against state health care, as if a state system must be that crappy...

I only live in 1 country (and I never get ill ;)) so I can't compare what any one country has the best health care vs. another one first hand ;)
however going by life expectancy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy) Britain is above Germany by 1 place, I think all european countries are basically not too far away from each other in health care.
America is below Cuba though, being government-phobic in the extreme I imagine they just wanted 'bad healthcare stories from socialist europe' and articles in English from Britain were easiest for them to get.

[RoyBatty]

I'm unconvinced - the rats might have good reasons to leave Britian when it sinks. Why must they stay there? what more 'use' could they have with a degenerated place that makes and has nothing anymore, not even the finance, which they can and will move when need be?
it's not like they didn't move around much in the past ;)


Britain is their home base. They're NOT going to desert it. Why rip the heart and guts out of a well-oiled and established global network steeped in centuries of conquest and tradition? It doesn't make sense.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The once great civilization of Hellenism that at one time ruled nearly all of the known world now are only rioting and committing acts of petty violence. If the Greeks want real change then they should know that the only way to do it is to replace rulers. The Greek situation is sad and unfortunate but it was inevitable by allowing corrupt rulers to stay in power (and even electing them over and over). What good is democracy if it allows the people to elect in the same old corrupt bastards?

[Troll's Puzzle]

Britain is their home base. They're NOT going to desert it. Why rip the heart and guts out of a well-oiled and established global network steeped in centuries of conquest and tradition? It doesn't make sense.

because all of a sudden a place can out-live its usefullness http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/traurig/sad-smiley-062.gif

then it's better to be somewhere else... just like that.

But... ve shall zee, VoyBatty. ve shall zee. ;)

(unless your're talking along the lines of the shapeshifting Reptilian-Queen of the British Empire fighting with the Dark Pope of the Vatican for control of the world. Then we probably won't see anything at all. :wink)

[RoyBatty]

because all of a sudden a place can out-live its usefullness http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/traurig/sad-smiley-062.gif

then it's better to be somewhere else... just like that.

But... ve shall zee, VoyBatty. ve shall zee. ;)

(unless your're talking along the lines of the shapeshifting Reptilian-Queen of the British Empire fighting with the Dark Pope of the Vatican for control of the world. Then we probably won't see anything at all. :wink)

Outlived it's usefulness? Let's not have zees defeatist talk.

I tell you now Rebecca, our people vill not give up so easily on zees established secure base. Not vith our Reptilian Qveen, our Money Sqvuare Mile and our complete ownership of ze politikal spektrum. :)

[Guapo]

What good is democracy if it allows the people to elect in the same old corrupt bastards?

Democracy only exists in the minds of your average North American :p I wonder if George Sorostein has anything to do with this Feta Revolution.

[RoyBatty]

Democracy only exists in the minds of your average North American :p I wonder if George Sorostein has anything to do with this Feta Revolution.

Somehow I don't think so, in this particular case.

[The Lawspeaker]

What good is democracy if it allows the people to elect in the same old corrupt bastards?
Well there is no real democracy if the electorate does not received fair and unbiased information.:wink

[RoyBatty]

Well there is no real democracy if the electorate does not received fair and unbiased information.:wink

But that's the entire point of Western Democracy.... to "appear real" but not to be real. I mean heaven forbid that those unconnected to the traditional power & money structures should come to power and remain uhm.... "unsympathetic" to the requirements and whims of the elites.

It just won't do.

Which is why "democracy" is never grassroots but instead belongs to those who can afford to bankroll it.

[The Lawspeaker]

But that's the entire point of Western Democracy.... to "appear real" but not to be real. I mean heaven forbid that those unconnected to the traditional power & money structures should come to power and remain uhm.... "unsympathetic" to the requirements and whims of the elites.

It just won't do.

Which is why "democracy" is never grassroots but instead belongs to those who can afford to bankroll it.
I prefer to make it grassroots rather then abandoning it for tyranny. What good is fighting the NWO is you simply replace it with homegrown tyranny ?
That's why there is only good solution for the present elite and those that might spring up one day in case try to cease power one way or the other:

http://franceshunter.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/guillotine.jpg
Sic semper tyrannis.

[RoyBatty]

Who said anything about "tyranny". A good spring cleaning by a nationalist military council would be just what the doctor ordered.

Efficient, effective, assertive. No wishy washy should we shouldn't we nonsense.

[The Lawspeaker]

Who said anything about "tyranny". A good spring cleaning by a nationalist military council would be just what the doctor ordered.

Efficient, effective, assertive. No wishy washy should we shouldn't we nonsense.
Give them five years and then transfer power to the people. In case this council has committed crimes against the people they too will have a date with the National Razor.

[Agrippa]

Every chance is better than what we have, because with what we have, Europeans will be completely ruined and finally exhausted. What will be left if even our villages look like the major cities already do?
If our welfare, health, law and economic system - I speak of the good parts of it, were going down the drain?

They will, that will be all gone, if we dont get rid of the Plutocratic Oligarchy. Its like a surgery with a risk but without it you die for sure...

If you want to fight for yourself, people and mankind, you have to fight, there will always be a risk, who cares, only death is for sure.

Also a revolutionary change should have fixed goals, goals which mean the people can judge those in charge whether they reached it or at least tried to reach, with some sort of corrective.

I dont think thats really impossible, the much larger problem I have in mind is that in the current context, things must happen in more than one country in Europe, because one alone would be just bashed.

Also for the City of London and Britain in general as the place to be for the old Plutocracy: Well, they have a system there, security, established rules, many "friends" and its just "their trading place", especially if you look for the gold fixing, its still the old Rothschilds & Co. which have there "golden fingers" in the game. This can be even seen in a long term analysis of the intraday gold price change.

The largest change comes on average always from the fixing in London.

I might add how important the gold price is especially for the US of A. Its like a friendly greeting from Rothschild England to Rockefeller in the USA every day...

[SuuT]

Well, there were various frauds with the dollar and US-financial system already. In fact, the Oil crisis at the end of the 1970's just took away wealth and investments from the the FRG and Japan, they had to spend a large fraction of their dollar reserves for the ressources.

Many countries today really work, in a macro-economic sense if you prefer that, to a large degree for nothing in return to keep up the American bubble. FRG, Japan and China really finance that war machine and plutocratic power, indirectly at least, thats so perverted about it, especially if talking about a "free market policy".

Yes, it didnt start in the USA, thats true, nor are the USA the only infected country, but they are the primary host for the parasite right now and there were and are various characteristics of the system and people, which existed even before that, which made it much easier for the plutocrats to make it their new than f.e. in France, Germany or Russia, what we might sum up with Continental Europe.

Its still largely the USA and GB and without those two the system would surely crumbly right now.

Looking at things as they are, the USA are the main mercenary, the military arm, centre of propaganda and manipulation, the financial system - in some respects together with GB, especially the City of London and show one of the lowest possibilities to really challenge the system.

So simple put, they are the force which keeps it up, defends it and will be a great obstacle for the freedom of the other people and nations. Thats just how it is.

The whole health care debate, the constant economic Liberalism, the Evangelicals and connection of Creationists with "Conservatism" etc., all of that shows a fundamental problem of the USA, namely the inability to really change their mind.

The Germans now are a lousy bunch, I know that better than you, so are many other European people, but once you get through to them with a message and show them the truth - which I dont know if it will ever happen in my short lifetime - then you can be sure there will be a correct and STRONG reaction. It will be about principles, for the group and the personal interests together.

In the USA the people are just fatalistic, partly because of the Christian-Calvinist and Liberalcapitalist indoctrination, they not only believe in the "politically correct crap" but really in THIS Capitalist system to a large degree.

People saying that "the state" is responsible and a "small state" could be a solution, back to Christian and constitution values, the Individualist freedom etc., heck where the hell are they living, in a paleolithic cave?

Alex Jones is just a perfect example for what I mean, he got so many things right, he is, with all his faults, really an enrichment, but in the end he too being stucked in the American disease. As if "Nazis and Fascists" have anything to do with the Rockefellers-Rothschilds and Plutocratic Oligarchy.

In fact, those were the only groups which really posed a threat to their rule in the last centuries and he lumps them together for the average American-Joe as if what happens now being a "Nazi-plan". Thats so ridiculous, its close to the "Dinosaurs played with children 5000 years B.C."

As small as European groups of resistance might be, they have an attitude which is in way "more sane and complete", which the Americans seem, as a rule and with all the exceptions, simply lack. I dont know for how long, or every reason, I can just observe it. They can only work in a sane way on small, local level. As soon as it comes to ideology, to a more complete worldview and their greater interests, they seem to have been beaten on the head too often.

If I speak with "re-educated" Europeans, they have a lot of crap in their heads too, but thats more of the sort "normal crap", like Hedomatism, rationalised Cultural Marxism, meaningful Christian Conservatism, real Marxism etc.
All things I despise, but they can be fixed by fixing some logical fallaces, ruining the manipulation and putting things straight again.

Thats much harder in the US of A, and while there are individually very great persons there, the situation as a whole seems to be so completely fucked up, that I have more trust in a change coming from Brazil or Argentina than the USA. The only thing I expect from the USA is pressure, pressure, pressure coming from the plutocrats, a demand for money, people, power, money, people, power and finally that they might throw bombs on those which dont comply to the Plutocratic New World Order.

I just hope I'm wrong, but I see little reason right now. So the USA are a problem for Europe, whether I like that fact or not.

I think that's accurate to say that economic change will not come (start) from the US. I think the most encouraging reality of the situation, however, is that if any one of the primary European trade partners of the US were to commit to changing their economic paradigm, the US and the rest of Europe would be forced to adapt. So get to work. :D