Scytho-Turkic Z93 branch Z2125 vs. Indo-Aryan migration theory

[Petros Houhoulis]

You are a disgrace to alevis. I know there are good, nationalistic alevis too.

You are a disgrace to the human race. You were a disgrace to Kemalist Turkey too, but this fable is no more...

[Ice]

Also, the Shia authority was created by a Turkic civilization, Safavid Empire.

So, if you call yourself a Turk, why do you attack Shia people althought there are millions of Turks who believe in Shia Islam.

If you want to get respect from us, you have to respect.

His grandpa was a sunni sheikh,he later adopted shia from opportunistic reasons. Thera are rumours about his origin. Some say he's arab(sheikh), turk or kurd. Anyway, he was turkified but still gave his son a persian name. After couple generations they(his turcoman army) are assimilated in persian society. We've lost many turkic people because him.Death in battle or ran to his side and became shia now. He can be turkish, he doesnt belong to turkish history (except his poetry).

If you are turkish, if you are really turcoman alevi, dont chose iranian side over seljuk/ottoman/republican turkey. If you do this, i'll prefer sunni kurds to so-called alevis (i still think you're kurdish alevi or caferi from kars).

[Demhat]

interesting
http://s27.postimg.org/yrvx97cz7/kurt_680557.jpg

Is that she? I agree bro, she definitely looks as you described her.

[Instinct]

Alevism, a religion itself is a mix of Shia Islam and Shamans. Well, we were not loyal to Ottomans of course we didn't need to be loyal to a barbaric so called empire (Ottomans are barbars) and we were their enemies but it's not the same with the republic of Turkey.

Turkey wouldn't be Turkey if we wouldn't be loyal like the other groups in Turkey.

Go to your fellow yazid kurdish brothers now so called turk.

ÖlüEzgi thumbed down this post xD, hey you thumb down because of butthurt I guess. You know that if millions of Alevis wouldn't exists in Turkey you wouldn't live a good modern life but suffer under a dictatorship so you should be thankful to us instead of thumbing down my post.

xD

[Petros Houhoulis]

The update was good.. i don't think i've wasted my money. If you analyse the updated version you can see the link with turkic migration to anatolia.

Which makes up what? 5% of your genes???


It's your problem if you can't afford the test. Maybe you don't have the balls to take the test?

I have no need to reinforce my identity with genetic tests. I might do a test in the future, but mostly to see what sort of diseases I might get in the future, not for the reasons you make those tests...


Persians (4 grandparetns) are very ugly people. Good looking persians must have azeri,turkmen or kurd ancestry. The mollahs allow them to have anal sex with their ugly wives, still there are many iranians fags. Especially in the netherlands. They are fag + anti-islam at the same time,perhaps just like you?

The Persians are not ugly. Stop believing your own propaganda...

I am not a fag. I am only an Atheist...

[gültekin]

Is that she? I agree bro, she definitely looks as you described her.
no thats your qurmanchi Kürt brother. ahh do you know that the name Kürt is given to you by Türks , cause qurmanchi sounds very weird

[Pennywise]

gelmiş gene tipini siktiğim.:picard2:

[Petros Houhoulis]

Humeyni is azeri. Btw, iran was ruled by turks for a millennia. Pehlevi dynasty is the only persian dynasty that took control over iran after Omar (god bless him) have conquested iran.

...And the Azeris are Turkified Persians. Your point???

[Demhat]

no thats your qurmanchi Kürt brother. ahh do you know that the name Kürt is given to you by Türks , cause qurmanchi sounds very weird

Your mother is a transsexual? Ah that explain why she has a bigger penis than you.

Bro just for your record. With a fugly face as yours I wouldn't make fun of your mother or anyone else.

[Pennywise]

Which makes up what? 5% of your genes???I have no need to reinforce my identity with genetic tests. I might do a test in the future, but mostly to see what sort of diseases I might get in the future, not for the reasons you make those tests...

The Persians are not ugly. Stop believing your own propaganda...

I am not a fag. I am only an Atheist...

petros, send us your photo and show everyone a true hellen son how to be look like.

[Ice]

Which makes up what? 5% of your genes???I have no need to reinforce my identity with genetic tests. I might do a test in the future, but mostly to see what sort of diseases I might get in the future, not for the reasons you make those tests...

The Persians are not ugly. Stop believing your own propaganda...

I am not a fag. I am only an Atheist...

12+ there is some hidden in euro components. If you are not interested in your y-dna, mtdna and autosomal dna what are you doing here?

I have visited azerbaijan(republic),tebriz(occupied azerbajian) and tahran(only place where i saw ethnic persians) few years ago. Plus there are many iranians (persians included) where i live.

I don't have problem with atheists. I'm not a religious fanatic as instict is trying to portray me.

[gültekin]

Your mother is a transsexual Kurd who became Turk? Ah that explain why she has a bigger penis than you.
no she isn't. but i'm pretty sure your mother prefer donkeys like most sorani monkeys, and you are an offspring her sexual relationship

[Ice]

...And the Azeris are Turkified Persians. Your point???

You called it waste of money but according to oracle results on gedmatch, i cluster with azeris.. I'm turkified persian too?

[Ice]

You are a disgrace to the human race. You were a disgrace to Kemalist Turkey too, but this fable is no more...

I'm not kemalist, never liked the english spy.

Btw, i'm not 100% Turkish. I'm part Laz.

[Demhat]

no she isn't. but i'm pretty sure your mother prefer donkeys like most sorani monkeys, and you are an offspring her sexual relationship

What, your father raped your ass with a baseball bat while your mom was filming it ? Bro thats just too much insider for the Forum. That explains your mental state.

[Instinct]

His grandpa was a sunni sheikh,he later adopted shia from opportunistic reasons. Thera are rumours about his origin. Some say he's arab(sheikh), turk or kurd. Anyway, he was turkified but still gave his son a persian name. After couple generations they(his turcoman army) are assimilated in persian society. We've lost many turkic people because him.Death in battle or ran to his side and became shia now. He can be turkish, he doesnt belong to turkish history (except his poetry).

There are rumors about Ottoman Emperor's ancestry too. Many of them got slavic blood from maternal side we know. What the fuck you say that you lost Turkic peoples? Ottomans forced Turkic people to change their religion to Sunni. That was happened to the Chepni of Black Sea and other Turkic clans of Anatolia. You are the ones who assimilated to Beduin Arab society that you even didn't use Turkish language however official language of Safavid Empire was Turkish and Persian.

Who you are that you say he doesn't belong to Turkish history?

Watch what the National Movement Party Leader says;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QjdTuqQg5I





If you are turkish, if you are really turcoman alevi, dont chose iranian side over seljuk/ottoman/republican turkey. If you do this, i'll prefer sunni kurds to so-called alevis (i still think you're kurdish alevi or caferi from kars).

Who you are? Ottoman Emperor Selim I? xD

We are citizens of Turkey and we are the ones who created modern Turkey, not you sheih said supporter. Yes, prefer sunni kurds and go to Kurdistan, we are fed up with you in our country.

I'd say if I was a Kurdish Alevi or Azeri Jafari Turk of Kars, but I am not. Don't forget that we are millions in Turkey so if you respect you'll get respect.

[Instinct]

gelmiş gene tipini siktiğim.:picard2:

Siktir amk cahil yobazı. Utanmalısın lan, burada Azerilerin inancı ve kültürü olan Şii İslam'ı aşağılayıp, Aleviler'e hakaret edip bir de saygı ve birlik bekliyorsun insan ol.

[Pennywise]

okay, please no more insults. no one have to like each other but it doesn't mean you can insult him/her. if you contiune this, I'll summon a mod.

[Instinct]

I'm not kemalist, never liked the english spy.

Btw, i'm not 100% Turkish. I'm part Laz.

It was clear that you were not Turkish at all. None of real and secular Turks have problems with us, but you do laz.

[gültekin]

What your father raped your ass with chopsticks? Bro thats just too much insider for the Forum.
againe nope, but you smells like a raped little dogy who trys to act like a man. go back to your donkey stall and watch out for your mommy

[KawaiiKawaii]

okay, please no more insults. no one have to like each other but it doesn't mean you can insult him/her. if you contiune this, I'll summon a mod.

...says the troll who started, with Gultekin, all this shit...

[Demhat]

againe nope, but you smells like a raped little dogy who trys to act like a man. go back to your donkey stall and watch out for your mommy

haha :D Oh boy you have no idea. You would be crying if you stand in front of me. Must be hard to know that even a Kurd has more to do with your beloved Turkic ancestors than yourself.

[Pennywise]

yavşak bir de utanmadan alıntılıyor. yüzü de kızarmıyor zibidinin. neyse...

[Ice]

Anyways you are against Alevis also. We have the same faith (12 Imams) in common with Shia of Azerbaijan and Iran and historicaly we are related to Safavid Empire.

Do you consider as crazy sunni imams of saudi arabia that they allow you to marry kids?



Wahabis are just like shia and zionists big threat to us. I think we should let them fight each other, and pick up the bones.

I'm a moderate muslim, it's okay with me if you worship ali and dance during your religious ceremonies as long as you are loyal to turk and dont disrespect sunni islam.

[Demhat]

okay, please no more insults. no one have to like each other but it doesn't mean you can insult him/her. if you contiune this, I'll summon a mod.

You should have summoned a mod when Göttekin was annoying and insulting the whole forum with his smelly breath. Don't act like a neutral person now.

[gültekin]

...says the troll who started, with Gultekin, all this shit...
realy, do not act like a sneaky trol, you silly know definitely which retarded monkeys has started. hau ap

[Ice]

It was clear that you were not Turkish at all. None of real and secular Turks have problems with us, but you do laz.

Part of me is native to the region so what?

[Pennywise]

You should have summoned a mod when Göttekin was annoying the whole forum with his smelly breath. Don't act like a neutral person now.

I'am always neutral. ask other turkish members if you want. I never supported anyone fully. but you still insulting him. you're guilty here.

[Instinct]

yavşak bir de utanmadan alıntılıyor. yüzü de kızarmıyor zibidinin. neyse...

amk sen kimsin git hayat yap kendine amk yobazı türküm diyor bi de kim bilir ne göçmen dönmesisin de aleviler'i aşağılıyorsun kimsin lan sen haberin var mı milyonlarca insan Alevi Türkiye'de ne biçim bi moronsun amk sana yardım eden bir sürü Alevi olmuştur haberin olmadığı utanmıyor musun lan. Geldiğimde adam olmuşsundur diye düşündüm Alevi-Sünni kavgası yapmayalım dedik hatta ben bu kavgayı alphawolf ile bitirdim de senin kapasiten yok siktir git

alıntılıyor diyor bi de triplere bak amk ne kadar ciddiye almışsın cahil sikik ergen.

[gültekin]

pfff what a retarded peace of monkey.. just waste of time. to much butthurt of such donkeys irritates me

[Demhat]

I'am always neutral. ask other turkish members if you want. I never supported anyone fully. but you still insulting him. you're guilty here.
Sure sure
Good story bro.

[Petros Houhoulis]

petros, send us your photo and show everyone a true hellen son how to be look like.

Why don't you come to see me from a close range? I'll donate the vaseline for your arse...

[Instinct]

I'm a moderate muslim, it's okay with me if you worship ali and dance during your religious ceremonies as long as you are loyal to turk and dont disrespect sunni islam.

You are a radical islamist. Alevis have their own trinity which is Allah (the god), Mohammad (messenger) and Ali (the vali and caliphate). That's not a dance you see yobaz yazid, that's a dance you can't get what its mean only mavlavi and sufis can understand the meaning and its divine.

It's okay with me if you are a sunni laz and don't disrespect Alevism.

[Ice]

There are rumors about Ottoman Emperor's ancestry too. Many of them got slavic blood from maternal side we know. What the fuck you say that you lost Turkic peoples? Ottomans forced Turkic people to change their religion to Sunni. That was happened to the Chepni of Black Sea and other Turkic clans of Anatolia. You are the ones who assimilated to Beduin Arab society that you even didn't use Turkish language however official language of Safavid Empire was Turkish and Persian.

Who you are that you say he doesn't belong to Turkish history?

Watch what the National Movement Party Leader says;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QjdTuqQg5I





Who you are? Ottoman Emperor Selim I? xD

We are citizens of Turkey and we are the ones who created modern Turkey, not you sheih said supporter. Yes, prefer sunni kurds and go to Kurdistan, we are fed up with you in our country.

I'd say if I was a Kurdish Alevi or Azeri Jafari Turk of Kars, but I am not. Don't forget that we are millions in Turkey so if you respect you'll get respect.

Ottomans are oghuz. Their ancestors have fought against mongols, they lost the battle and run to anatolia to seek asylum from seljuks, which is granted.

Ottomans have built many medreses in anatolia. Even before yavuz have conquested egypte. If they were alevi they wouldnt do that. I'm not a religous fanatic, i'm willing to accept you as a fellow turk but do not disprect sunni islam/ottoman legacy like many alevis do.

your beloved shah was the reason why sunni turks couldn't unite, his wars were always against ottomans or turkics(uzbeks). he never attacked europeans. he's also the reason why eastern turkey became kurdish. because alevis like you were not loyal to ottomans. thats why yavuz gave sunni kurds many priviliges. I think it was a good decision. If eastern turkey was alevi, ottomans would in the end lose control over the region. You'd join iran and lose your faith, just like turkish warrios who run to iran's side in 16th century.

[Instinct]

Part of me is native to the region so what?

Şaraptan dönen sirke keskin olur işte böyle.

Sen kimsin de Aleviler'i aşağılıyorsun da bir de laz olarak utanmadan bizim milletimizi bizden esirgemeye çalışıyorsun kendince? Bir de dans diyerek kültürü hor görüyorsun amk hayatında devleti bile olmamış bir lazsın işte.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV0lsHiZehU

[gültekin]

Why don't you come to see me from a close range? I'll donate the vaseline for your arse...
says a idiot who lives still with his mommy. you can't nothing you coward worm. Tell your mom she should buy for you such things, seems you need that

[Ice]

Şaraptan dönen sirke keskin olur işte böyle.

Sen kimsin de Aleviler'i aşağılıyorsun da bir de laz olarak utanmadan bizim milletimizi bizden esirgemeye çalışıyorsun kendince? Bir de dans diyerek kültürü hor görüyorsun amk hayatında devleti bile olmamış bir lazsın işte.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV0lsHiZehU

If you don't like it, go to Iran..

[Pennywise]

amk sen kimsin git hayat yap kendine amk yobazı türküm diyor bi de kim bilir ne göçmen dönmesisin de aleviler'i aşağılıyorsun kimsin lan sen haberin var mı milyonlarca insan Alevi Türkiye'de ne biçim bi moronsun amk sana yardım eden bir sürü Alevi olmuştur haberin olmadığı utanmıyor musun lan. Geldiğimde adam olmuşsundur diye düşündüm Alevi-Sünni kavgası yapmayalım dedik hatta ben bu kavgayı alphawolf ile bitirdim de senin kapasiten yok siktir git

alıntılıyor diyor bi de triplere bak amk ne kadar ciddiye almışsın cahil sikik ergen.

la sen adam mı oldun da benden adamlık bekliyorun it. :) açtırma ağzımı şimdi. tanımadığın etmediğin insanların soyu sopu hakkında da yorum yapma. elazığlı ne üdüğü belirsiz bir sözde alevi olarak bu senin en son yapacağın iş. siktir git, bir daha alıntılama.

[Petros Houhoulis]

12+ there is some hidden in euro components. If you are not interested in your y-dna, mtdna and autosomal dna what are you doing here?

Mocking the "Turks" who believe they are "Turkish" with as little as 12% Turkish blood, as usual...


I have visited azerbaijan(republic),tebriz(occupied azerbajian) and tahran(only place where i saw ethnic persians) few years ago. Plus there are many iranians (persians included) where i live.

Maybe you need to buy glasses...


I don't have problem with atheists. I'm not a religious fanatic as instict is trying to portray me.

Why do you hate the Shias then? Only the Sunni fundamentalists hate the Shias...

[Petros Houhoulis]

You called it waste of money but according to oracle results on gedmatch, i cluster with Azeris.. I'm turkified Persian too?

With 12% Turkish ancestry, you are a Turkified whatever...

[Instinct]

Ottomans have built many medreses in anatolia. Even before yavuz have conquested egypte. If they were alevi they wouldnt do that. I'm not a religous fanatic, i'm willing to accept you as a fellow turk but do not disprect sunni islam/ottoman legacy like many alevis do.

Ottomans are the muslim Greeks and Armenians in fact. Yes, of course we Alevis do not accept and recognise the legacy of Ottoman Empire and very happy that you were destroyed by Atatürk.

I don't care that you accept me as a fellow Turk or not. I am a Turk by blood and you are Laz by blood that's all.

Then go to be with the side of your fellow Kurdish Zaza Sunni Shafi Kurds.



your beloved shah was the reason why sunni turks couldn't unite, his wars were always against ottomans or turkics(uzbeks). he never attacked europeans. he's also the reason why southern turkey became kurdish. because alevis like you were not loyal to ottomans. thats why yavuz gave sunni kurds many priviliges. I think it was a good decision. If southern turkey was alevi, ottomans would in the end lose control over the region. You'd join iran and lose your faith, just like turkish warrios who run to iran's side in 16th century.

You are the murderer of more than 40.000 Turks in Anatolia. Most of Chepnis of Black Sea were forced to convert Sunni Islam, the rest of Chepnis could protect their identity in Western Anatolia.

After you genocide Alevi Turks in southeastern Anatolia you Ottomans settled Sunni Kurds, you moron still try to blame Safavid Empire for this shit. You should accept what you did at least if you dare.

[gültekin]

la oğlum bi birbirinize düşmeden bırakın, ite köpeğe mlzm vermeyin. derdinizi özelden paylaşın :)

[Demhat]

As already wrote. Central Asian Turkic groups are descend of the Tur(Iranic) and an Altaic group. That doesn't make Scythians Turkic but Turks part Scythian.

[Petros Houhoulis]

says a idiot who lives still with his mommy. you can't nothing you coward worm. Tell your mom she should buy for you such things, seems you need that

Whom I live with is none of your concern. Your smelly arse is full of empty threats, but no substance...

[gültekin]

Whom I live with is none of your concern. Your smelly arse is full of empty threats, but no substance...
siktir malaka :) sikerim senin maymun suratını

[Ice]

Mocking the "Turks" who believe they are "Turkish" with as little as 12% Turkish blood, as usual...Maybe you need to buy glasses...

Why do you hate the Shias then? Only the Sunni fundamentalists hate the Shias...

I compare my results with turkmens. I see many similarities. They have more mongloid genes but it's normal i guess, since anatolia was not empty when we have arrived..

Shia is based on hate against sunnis. It's a dangerous indoctrination and very imperialistic. I wish iran became sunni again. Did you know that we turks learnt islam from iranians (sunni) and not from arabs?

[Instinct]

la sen adam mı oldun da benden adamlık bekliyorun it. :) açtırma ağzımı şimdi. tanımadığın etmediğin insanların soyu sopu hakkında da yorum yapma. elazığlı ne üdüğü belirsiz bir sözde alevi olarak bu senin en son yapacağın iş. siktir git, bir daha alıntılama.

Siktir şerefsiz. Aç ağzını köpekler sıçacakmış amk ne olacakmış.

Aleviler genellikle Sivas, Tokat, Tunceli, Elazığ, Çorum illerinden olurlar zaten gerizekalı ergen. Bağlı olduğum ocak, kültür, gelenek gayet temiz ki sen ne olduğun belirsiz balkanlardan müslüman olup dönmüşler gelmişler işte Türkiye'ye. Bu yani senin olayın dönme boku.

Alıntılarsam ne olur? Sen kimsin amk? Bir daha sakın ve sakın yavşakoğlu yavşaklık yapma.

[zarzian]

I think Turkic ethnicity is a result of a Mongol women and an Aryan men. This is why Turks get highly r1a and r1b in Central Asia.

And this is the one thing that kills every Turk's pride, this fact burns their soul. And add to that the fact that the Anatolian Turks have 95% Greek/Armenian/Kurdish/Persian/Levantine ancestry, now anyone can understand why Turks are so extremely butthurt.

[Pennywise]

Why don't you come to see me from a close range? I'll donate the vaseline for your arse...

why, do you embrace your racial features? if you so proud pure blood hellen, then show your half god face!

[Pennywise]

lan eşeğe söylesem şimdiye anladıydı. ne menem bi sıpaymış bu ya. nereden bulaştık bu tavus bokuna.

[Instinct]

If you don't like it, go to Iran..

Hahahahahah, go to Lazistan if you don't like us, if lazistan exists.

This is our own republic we created after destroying the Ottoman Empire.

[Instinct]

lan eşeğe söylesem şimdiye anladıydı. ne menem bi sıpaymış bu ya. nereden bulaştık bu tavus bokuna.

siktir amk, karı gibi laf yapma şerefsiz enik.

[Instinct]

And this is the one thing that kills every Turk's pride, this fact burns their soul. And add to that the fact that the Anatolian Turks have 95% Greek/Armenian/Kurdish/Persian/Levantine ancestry, now anyone can understand why Turks are so extremely butthurt.

That doesn't kill any Turk's pride. There are many turkologists say that Turkic ethnicity is a result of Aryan and Mongol admixture, the ethnicities are with many or some admixtures of races you know.

I don't think 95% of Turks have Armenian, Greek, etc. ancestry but the so called turkish members called Ice and ÖlüEzgi are not Turks.

[Ice]

Ottomans are the muslim Greeks and Armenians in fact. Yes, of course we Alevis do not accept and recognise the legacy of Ottoman Empire and very happy that you were destroyed by Atatürk.

I don't care that you accept me as a fellow Turk or not. I am a Turk by blood and you are Laz by blood that's all.

Then go to be with the side of your fellow Kurdish Zaza Sunni Shafi Kurds.



You are the murderer of more than 40.000 Turks in Anatolia. Most of Chepnis of Black Sea were forced to convert Sunni Islam, the rest of Chepnis could protect their identity in Western Anatolia.

After you genocide Alevi Turks in southeastern Anatolia you Ottomans settled Sunni Kurds, you moron still try to blame Safavid Empire for this shit. You should accept what you did at least if you dare.

I knew you'd use the laz card against me. I'm happy with it, i see it as an enrichment.

Ottomans took wives from different etnicites. There were here and there some conversions, but it's not right to call the empire greek-armenian, just because it won several wars against safevids.

Alevi propaganda. yavuz have only killed alevis that helped safevids. Innocent alevis were relocated to other parts of anatolia or balkans. You were helping the enemy and you're braggin' about it?

[gültekin]

And this is the one thing that kills every Turk's pride, this fact burns their soul. And add to that the fact that the Anatolian Turks have 95% Greek/Armenian/Kurdish/Persian/Levantine ancestry, now anyone can understand why Turks are so extremely butthurt.
againe a butthurt irano-gyparyan
actualy iranians was the slaves of Turkics and mongols over centuries. represent iranians are mostly rape victims of them

[Instinct]

Shia is based on hate against sunnis. It's a dangerous indoctrination and very imperialistic. I wish iran became sunni again. Did you know that we turks learnt islam from iranians (sunni) and not from arabs?

Fuck off you liar. Your religion is hatred towards Shias and Christians, Jews and Atheists. This is why you attacked Charlie Hebdo two days ago.

Iran will kick your ass and never become sunni you laz.

You learned your wahabi way from Arabs.

[Ice]

That doesn't kill any Turk's pride. There are many turkologists say that Turkic ethnicity is a result of Aryan and Mongol admixture, the ethnicities are with many or some admixtures of races you know.

I don't think 95% of Turks have Armenian, Greek, etc. ancestry but the so called turkish members called Ice and ÖlüEzgi are not Turks.

I'd love to see your test results. Last time i saw an alevi result it was textbook kurdish. The guy was a turkish nationalist before he did the test just like you. He became kurdish nationalist, i think he also supports pkk.

You can see my results in this thread.

If you want it i can also give you my gedmatch and harappa number. I even score more east asian than average turks.

are you man, sorry turkish enough to show yours ?

[Ice]

Fuck off you liar. Your religion is hatred towards Shias and Christians, Jews and Atheists. This is why you attacked Charlie Hebdo two days ago.

Iran will kick your ass and never become sunni you laz.

You learned your wahabi way from Arabs.

This is exactly why turkish people (people who livei n turkey) dont trust alevis. You are scumbag.

I already said i don't like wahabis, they are dangerous as zionists or shia's are. You didnt quote that part, why??

[KawaiiKawaii]

This is exactly why turkish people (people who livei n turkey) dont trust alevis. You are scumbag.

I already said i don't like wahabis, they are dangerous as zionists or shia's are. You didnt quote that part, why??

Why are Shias dangerous? The ones financing terrorism everywhere are Saudis and Qataris, who are Sunnis, not Shias from what I understand. Shias actually look like the sanest Muslims.

[Instinct]

I knew you'd use the laz card against me. I'm happy with it, i see it as an enrichment.
Ottomans took wives from different etnicites. There were here and there some conversions, but it not right to call the empire greek-armenians, just because it won severals wars against safevids.
Alevi propaganda. yavuz have only killed alevis that helped safevids. Innocent alevis were relocated to other parts of anatolia or balkans. You were helping the enemy and you're braggin' about it?

It's funny a stupid laz says that Alevi Turks should go to Iran? Kimin ülkesinden kimi kovuyorsun sen laz? xD

The Turkish proffesssor Ilber Ortayli and historian Murat Bardakçı and many proffessors say that I. Selim killed more than 40.000 Alevis, written in the documents.

I don't mind if you have a laz ancestry or not, I am not racist basicaly but it's just funny you as a laz trying to show yourself Turkish however most of Alevis are pure Turks. So, stop saying that. You are not Turkish nor turkish nationalist but an islamist neo ottoman laz.

I am very glad you live in Germany.

[Instinct]

This is exactly why turkish people (people who livei n turkey) dont trust alevis. You are scumbag.

I already said i don't like wahabis, they are dangerous as zionists or shia's are. You didnt quote that part, why??

What? We are 15 million of Turkey, be careful what you say. Main opposition leader of Turkey is Alevi, our country would be such a beautiful modern place if you wouldn't exists but you made lots of babies like your fellow kurds.

[KawaiiKawaii]

It's funny a stupid laz says that Alevi Turks should go to Iran? Kimin ülkesinden kimi kovuyorsun sen laz? xD

The Turkish proffesssor Ilber Ortayli and historian Murat Bardakçı and many proffessors say that I. Selim killed more than 40.000 Alevis, written in the documents.

I don't mind if you have a laz ancestry or not, I am not racist basicaly but it's just funny you as a laz trying to show yourself Turkish however most of Alevis are pure Turks. So, stop saying that. You are not Turkish nor turkish nationalist but an islamist neo ottoman laz.

I am very glad you live in Germany.

Wait, he lives in Germany and tells you to go back to Iran? :D

[zarzian]

againe a butthurt irano-gyparyan
actualy iranians was the slaves of Turkics and mongols over centuries. represent iranians are mostly rape victims of them

It's ok Tork, you can let out your frustrations, its understandable if you are feeling butthurt because you are a result of male extermination by Iranian central Asians who raped the mongloid siberians woman and killed their Mongloid men, and gave rise to Turks. And as i remember reading, Torks were fleeing the Mongol hoards more then anyone.

Oh and don't forget, any Turkic dynasty of Iran were completely Persianate and the ruling class were always of Iranic stock, just like the R1a of the Ottoman rullers, it was always the smart Aryan ruling over the Idiotic turkic masses.

[Instinct]

I'd love to see your test results. Last time i saw an alevi result it was textbook kurdish. The guy was a turkish nationalist before he did the test just like you. He became kurdish nationalist, i think he also supports pkk.
You can see my results in this thread.
If you want it i can also give you my gedmatch and harappa number. I even score more east asian than average turks.
are you man, sorry turkish enough to show yours ?

The guy you talk about his test results is individual. I have more Turkic blood and ancestry that's clear because we already live with it and we have got our own faith and Turkic culture. This is why we don't do stupid stuff like you laz, armenian, greek converts. Get the fuck off out my country and go to saudi arabia and mix with them.

[Instinct]

Wait, he lives in Germany and tells you to go back to Iran? :D

Indeed. He is a funny moron, isn't he? xD

Also, he is partly Laz, not Turkish. xD

[Pennywise]

Why are Shias dangerous? The ones financing terrorism everywhere are Saudis and Qataris, who are Sunnis, not Shias from what I understand. Shias actually look like the sanest Muslims.

let's test it in tehran. wanna yell like "there is no allah, you muslims are all stupids" at there? if you can do this and turn your home in one piece, i will agree you and always attack sunnis here.

[Instinct]

Why are Shias dangerous? The ones financing terrorism everywhere are Saudis and Qataris, who are Sunnis, not Shias from what I understand. Shias actually look like the sanest Muslims.

Thanks for this response. He is just a liar, butthurt moron. His religions fanatics' terror organisations are spreading their evil scums in all over the world.

You know many Christians of Lebanon vote for Hezbollah (Shia party).

[Ice]

It's funny a stupid laz says that Alevi Turks should go to Iran? Kimin ülkesinden kimi kovuyorsun sen laz? xD

The Turkish proffesssor Ilber Ortayli and historian Murat Bardakçı and many proffessors say that I. Selim killed more than 40.000 Alevis, written in the documents.

I don't mind if you have a laz ancestry or not, I am not racist basicaly but it's just funny you as a laz trying to show yourself Turkish however most of Alevis are pure Turks. So, stop saying that. You are not Turkish nor turkish nationalist but an islamist neo ottoman laz.

I am very glad you live in Germany.

I hope turcoman alevi's will kick your ass.

You'are lying, again. Ilber ortayli said even big cities like sivas or kayseri didnt had 40.000 people. He said 40.000 is very exaggerated.

Okay, take the test and show me your results..

Ps.i don't live in germany.

[Ice]

The guy you talk about his test results is individual. I have more Turkic blood and ancestry that's clear because we already live with it and we have got our own faith and Turkic culture. This is why we don't do stupid stuff like you laz, armenian, greek converts. Get the fuck off out my country and go to saudi arabia and mix with them.

It's up to you to prove you're oghuz and not a shia leftover.

[Instinct]

I hope turcoman alevi's will kick your ass.
You'are lying, again. Ilber ortayli said even big cities like sivas or kayseri didnt had 40.000 people. He said 40.000 is very exaggerated.
Okay, take the test and show me your results..

Turcoman Alevi's think like I do. So why they would do it? They would kick your ass firstly because you are their first enemy for sure. I can say that Azeri Turks will kick your ass too.

You're lying here like all the time. First of everything you started to attack Shia people and Alevis when you were talking about sychtians. This is the way how you are hatred towards Shia people.

I am sure you can't naturalise in Germany. You have no homeland, poor laz.

[Instinct]

It's up to you to prove you're oghuz and not a shia leftover.

Shia is a religion and branch of Islam (Twelvers). Azeris and Persians are Shia. Alevis are considered as Shia in main faith with several differences.

So, what the fuck you think that somebody can't be turk and shia? You stupid neo ottoman moron.

[KawaiiKawaii]

let's test it in tehran. wanna yell like "there is no allah, you muslims are all stupids" at there? if you can do this and turn your home in one piece, i will agree you and always attack sunnis here.

Let's do the same thing in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Qatar, etc. The Iranian government is insane, yes, but Iranians are actually one of the nicest people over there.

[Demhat]

What? We are 15 million of Turkey, be careful what you say. Main opposition leader of Turkey is Alevi, our country would be such a beautiful modern place if you wouldn't exists but you made lots of babies like your fellow kurds.

Instinct you are probably one of the typical Turkish wannabe "seculars".

Secularism only exists in words with you. In reality you don't know what it means. You feel insulted about what Ice says about shia's and ask for respect while at the same time you insult Yazidi Kurds by using "Yazidi" as insult against him. And now use Kurds as an insult when it suits you.

Turkey was never really secular neither real Muslim but always a totaliterian racist state. You guys are simply not capable of a working democratic society.

On one side you have too radical wannabe "muslims" on the other side wannabe "seculars" who believe secularism is all about beeing against the headscarf and living a western livestyle.

[Instinct]

Instinct you are probably one of the typical Turkish "secular". Secularism only exists in words with you. In reality you don't know what it means. You feel insulted about what Ice says about shia's and ask for respect while at the same time you insult Yazidi Kurds by using "Yazidi" as insult against him.

Turkey was never secular not real Muslim you guys are simply not capable of a working democratic society.

Yazid is Yezid, means barbar, cruel. The son of Muawiya.

I didn't mean Yazidi religion. I know Yazidi Kurds and feel sorry for them when I see them on the death march. Fuck ISIS.

[Ice]

What? We are 15 million of Turkey, be careful what you say. Main opposition leader of Turkey is Alevi, our country would be such a beautiful modern place if you wouldn't exists but you made lots of babies like your fellow kurds.

You are not turkish alevi.You're either caferi or some confused kurdish alevi.

Pkk has many alevis in his ranks.. They also don't want peace between majority of turks and majority of kurds. I think you should join pkk.

Which alevi politicians? Only kilicdaroglu is alevi and his kurdish aswell.. baykal was karaçay.

[Ice]

Shia is a religion and branch of Islam (Twelvers). Azeris and Persians are Shia. Alevis are considered as Shia in main faith with several differences.

So, what the fuck you think that somebody can't be turk and shia? You stupid neo ottoman moron.

You are even a bigger threat to turks than pkk.. You idiot just dont realise it.

[Instinct]

You are not turkish alevi.You're either caferi or some confused kurdish alevi.
Pkk has many alevis in his ranks.. They also don't want peace between majority of turks and majority of kurds. I think you should join pkk.
Which alevi politicians? Only kilicdaroglu is alevi and his kurdish aswell.. baykal was karaçay.

I am a Turkish Alevi, descendant of Begdili Clan. (Begdili Aşireti). I'd say and be proud if I would be a Kurdish Alevi but I am not, how many times I would say? If you are a Laz, do I need to be Kurdish?

You should create your own so called lazistan instead of being a dog of us. xD go away now.

[Instinct]

You are even a bigger threat to turks than pkk.. You idiot just dont realise it.

Laz'a bak laz'a, sen kimsin laz?

Siktir olup gideceksin ülkemden ki gitmişsin zaten, senin gibi Atatürk'e hakaret eden, aydınlıktan yana olmayan tüm pislikler gitsin ülkemden.

[Pennywise]

Let's do the same thing in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Qatar, etc. The Iranian government is insane, yes, but Iranians are actually one of the nicest people over there.

I didn't say sunnis are best. there are plenty of radical shia islamists and supporters of the current regime in iran. you're underestimating them.

[Ice]

Someone should ban this indian looking alevi.. Things can get ugly..

[Ice]

Laz'a bak laz'a, sen kimsin laz?

Siktir olup gideceksin ülkemden ki gitmişsin zaten, senin gibi Atatürk'e hakaret eden, aydınlıktan yana olmayan tüm pislikler gitsin ülkemden.

Yeni turkiye'de senin gibilere yer yok..

[Instinct]

Someone should ban this indian looking alevi.. Things can get ugly..

You have indian ancestry on the map stupid moron sunni laz xD

[Ice]

I always support azeri's in their fight for freedom, while this alevi is backing up iran and shia imperialism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_newspaper_cockroach_cartoon_controversy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhwgyU7KZK0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vSf1D--eaQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tyTKOlCT0Y

[Instinct]

Yeni turkiye'de senin gibilere yer yok..

Yeni Türkiye mi? Hahaha, seküler Sünniler ve Aleviler çok güzel anlaşıyorlar ülkede de işte senin gibi üç beş laz, kürt, arnavut çok üremişler maalesef.

[Instinct]

I always support azeri's in their fight for freedom, while this alevi is backing up iran and shia imperialism


Don't make me laugh again... You are hatred towards Azeris cause they're Shia and have Qizilbash culture.

You see that you are the only problem in the world. All the members say that Sunnis are the biggest terrorists and threats for whole world, like al qaeda and ISIS but very soon France and Iran both are going to kick your terrorist ass.

[Instinct]

Someone should ban this indian looking alevi.. Things can get ugly..

I look whiter than you, butthurt? You stupid laz product.

[Ice]

You have indian ancestry on the map stupid moron sunni laz xD

That's not indian it's central asian.. European wannabe aryans are dying to have that. I got more ANE than average brit, german or greek.

I think original aryans live in india(upperclass, thus not youre look alikes) and some places in afghanistan and maybe iran. I can't deny their linguistic impact though.

[Instinct]

That's not indian it's central asian.. European wannabe aryans are dying to have that. I got more ANE than average brit, german or greek.

I think original aryans live in india and some places in afghanistan. I can't deny their linguistic impact though.

go to afghanistan and join al qaeda or go to ISIS and join your fellow sunni brothers.

[Ice]

Don't make me laugh again... You are hatred towards Azeris cause they're Shia and have Qizilbash culture.

You see that you are the only problem in the world. All the members say that Sunnis are the biggest terrorists and threats for whole world, like al qaeda and ISIS but very soon France and Iran both are going to kick your terrorist ass.

What has isis to do with me? You bring isis, so people who are reading this topic would chose your side? Or they will think i support isis?

Iran and azerbaijan were once sunni, they should be sunni again.. it would be good for iranians too. they have oil, but they can't even produce plastiic or macaroni. Why? they give billions to shia arabs in iraq, lebanon while average iranian in iran is very poor.

[Instinct]

What has isis to do with me? You bring isis, so people who are reading this topic would chose your side? Or they will think i support isis?
Iran and azerbaijan were once sunni, they should be sunni again.. it would be good for iranians too. they have oil, but they can't even produce plastiic or macaroni. Why? they give billions to shia arabs in iraq, lebanon while average iranian in iran is very poor.

Al Qaeda, ISIS, Al-Nusra and other radical islamist terrorist organisations are your fellow sunni brothers. I think you should be careful that they might arrest you because of your radical responses. You know, the Europe is against the Sunni Terrorism in their own countries.

Iran and Azerbaijan both are happy with their religion and culture. You should sell your identity and religion instead of suggesting them seriously, don't make me laugh.... xD

[KawaiiKawaii]

What has isis to do with me? You bring isis, so people who are reading this topic would chose your side? Or they will think i support isis?

Iran and azerbaijan were once sunni, they should be sunni again.. it would be good for iranians too. they have oil, but they can't even produce plastiic or macaroni. Why? they give billions to shia arabs in iraq, lebanon while average iranian in iran is very poor.

Aren't Shiites discriminated everywhere else but Iran? This is why they have to give them billions. Also Iran has the best education system in the region, they've produced great scientists. They're isolated by the rest of the world, this is why they're poor I guess.

[Instinct]

Aren't Shiites discriminated everywhere else but Iran? This is why they have to give them billions. Also Iran has the best education system in the region, they've produced great scientists. They're isolated by the rest of the world, this is why they're poor I guess.

He is a pro yezid. Yezid means barbaric, cruel by the way. This is how we call those barbars in our culture. As you mentioned Iran and Azerbaijan are the only countries where Shiites are majority and they are the moderate muslims.

Turkey is mostly Sunni 80% (Half of it secular), 20% Alevi.

These neo ottomans have problems with Alevis and this is why they burned 37 Alevi writer, philosopher and poets in Sivas. They also killed over 200 Alevis in Marash and killed many Alevis in Çorum and Malatya. These radical islamists like Ice know that we are the guarantee of secularism in Turkey so we are their first goal to murder.

[Ice]

Iran is very important for sunni islam. Hadith scholars are mostly persian. I have also read rumi's mesnevi and sadi. Both persian.

It's a shame that a sunni sheikh was not happy about his position and became suddenly shia, and his grandson ismail invented qizilbash and has killed every sunni (turkoman,kurd,arab etc). And made iran shia.. If iran was a sunni country, they'd be like turkey, maybe even more developed.

[KawaiiKawaii]

Iran is very important for sunni islam. Hadith scholars are mostly persian. I have also read rumi's mesnevi and sadi. Both persian.

It's a shame that a sunni sheikh was not happy about his position and became suddenly shia, and his grandson ismail invented qizilbash and has killed every sunni (turkoman,kurd,arab etc). And made iran shia.. If iran was a sunni country, they'd be like turkey, maybe even more developed.

But... Why? Why does being Sunni means being more developed? What has Iran's underdevelopment to do with Iran being Shiite? I don't understand you.

[Ice]

Until ataturk's reforms persian was very important in turkey. It was a must for every educated turk to speak persian, and memorize some parts of firdovs'is shahname, mesnevi or sadi. Ataturk didnt like this, he banned persian and arabic words, he replaced them with mongol (not even chagatay!), or french counterparts.

[Instinct]

Until ataturk's reforms persian was very important in turkey. It was a must for every educated turk to speak persian, and memorize some parts of firdovs'is, shahname, mesnevi or sadi. Ataturk didnt like this, he banned persian and arabic words, he replaced them with mongol (not even chagatay!), or french counterparts.

go to saudi arabia if you don't like Atatürk's modern revolution.

[Instinct]

But... Why? Why does being Sunni means being more developed? What has Iran's underdevelopment to do with Iran being Shiite? I don't understand you.

He doesn't mean development actually. He means terrorism, he knows that an Islamic republic like Iran would fund ISIS and Al Qaeda if Iran would be sunni. So, this is why he says that ;)

[Ice]

But... Why? Why does being Sunni means being more developed? What has Iran's underdevelopment to do with Iran being Shiite? I don't understand you.

Iran is creating constant chaos.. They use their oil to support shia arabs. There is also proxy war going on between russia/china/india and israel/usa/saudi arabia. Iran is backed up by russia. They have to fight, not for their country but for russia's interests. If iran wasnt shia, arabs or muslims would still fight each other, but not on this level.. Turkey and iran could unite against wahabis..

[Ice]

Alevi dog has provoked me and i said some bad shit about persians. Hope this will fix it


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVGN5CpI8gU

[Instinct]

Iran is creating constant chaos.. They use their oil to support shia arabs. There is also proxy war going on between russia/china/india and israel/usa/saudi arabia. Iran is backed up by russia. They have to fight, not for their country but for russia's interests. If iran wasnt shia, arabs or muslims would still fight each other, but not on this level.. Turkey and iran could unite against wahabis..

Turkey is a secular state, so why do you try to involve Turkey to every scum of pro sunnis like wahabis.

[Instinct]

Alevi dog has provoked me and i said some bad shit about persians. Hope this will fix it


You used to put Alevi cultural songs on TA, and now you try to insult hahaha you funny sunni yezid shit.

[KawaiiKawaii]

Iran is creating constant chaos.. They use their oil to support shia arabs. There is also proxy war going on between russia/china/india and israel/usa/saudi arabia. Iran is backed up by russia. They have to fight, not for their country but for russia's interests. If iran wasnt shia, arabs or muslims would still fight each other, but not on this level.. Turkey and iran could unite against wahabis..

And Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc. use their oil to support Sunnis and create constant chaos through international terrorism.
This is not a Shiite problem, but a general problem in the Middle East about people not being able to respect their neighbors without trying to impose their views on them.

[Ice]

go to saudi arabia if you don't like Atatürk's modern revolution.

If an armenian or anatolian (karamanides,pontic) greek said this. it could mean something. But who are you? Go to iran, turkey is sunni country. Kurdistan will be sunni too. There is no room for you. Except ... iran!

[Ice]

And Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc. use their oil to support Sunnis and create constant chaos through international terrorism.
This is not a Shiite problem, but a general problem in the Middle East about people not being able to respect their neighbors without trying to impose their views on them.

I'm Turkish i speak from turkish perspective. Turkish+iranian alliance could beat wahhabis and maybe zionists too. Now it's too fucked up(balanced) Non-muslims decide what happens in muslim countries.

[Instinct]

If an armenian or anatolian (karamanides,pontic) greek said this. it could mean something. But who are you? Go to iran, turkey is sunni country. Kurdistan will be sunni too. There is no room for you. Except ... iran!

You poor cahil laz, you have no homeland. We enjoy secularism in Turkey and you shit radicalism in Christian countries.

[Ice]

You poor cahil laz, you have no homeland. We enjoy secularism in Turkey and you shit radicalism in Christian countries.

I'm the example of harmony between different ethnicities in turkey. I'm part laz but i'm ready to die for turkey. Turk,kurd,laz,circassian,georgian,bosniak they are all turkish to me. But you're shia leftover. You should go to iran.

[Instinct]

I'm the example of harmony between different ethnicities in turkey. I'm part laz but i'm ready to die for turkey. Turk,kurd,laz,circassian,georgian,bosniak they are all turkish to me. But you're shia leftover. You should go to iran.

That's why you are not a Turkish Nationalist (Secular) and this is why you hate Atatürk. You even didn't complete your military job in Turkey however I did.

Now I bought my ticket to Tehran xD and I'll get a beautiful persian woman there. Bye bye.

[Ice]

F..k off.Don't come back.....

[Instinct]

Fuck off.Don't come back.

butthurt?

[Ice]

Iran is already sending missionnaries to turkey, they kidnap alevi children and teach them with shia indoctrinations and later send them back to turkey, i believe in qum they have a center for it.

I hope you won't visit qum?

[Instinct]

Iran is already sending missionnaries to turkey, they kidnap alevi children and teach them with shia indoctrinations and later send them back to turkey, i believe in qum they have a center for it.

I hope you won't visit qum?

I do.

Turkey will be Shia in 50 years.

[Ice]

Remember what idiris-i bitlisi and kuyucu murat pasha did to you.. turkey was almost becoming shia majority , but those guys did excellent work.

[Ice]

wtf, i wrote "don't come back" it says "don't be back"

is anyone editing my posts??

[Instinct]

Remember what idiris-i bitlisi and kuyucu murat pasha did to you.. turkey was almost becoming shia majority , but those guys did excellent work.

we will do worse what you did in the past and when those beautiful days come you'll try to find a hole to asylum.

[Ice]

Yatacak yerin yok. Kendini rezil etmene lafim yokta milyonlarca vatanini seven alevileri de rezil ediyorsun. Su forumda uc bes tane ecnebiye yaranabilmek icin deger mi? Aleviler cem evlerine fon isteyecekleri yerde once içindeki pislikleri temizlesinler.

[Instinct]

Yatacak yerin yok. Kendini rezil etmene lafim yokta milyonlarca vatanini seven alevileri de rezil ediyorsun. Su forumda uc bes tane ecnebiye yaranabilmek icin deger mi? Aleviler cem evlerine fon isteyecekleri yerde once içindeki pislikleri temizlesinler.

Lan sen ne utanmaz birisin? İdris-i Bitlisi köpeğinin yaptıklarını hatırlatıyorsun şerefsiz, ne dememi bekliyorsun sana madalya mı takayım?

O milyonlarca vatanını seven Alevilerden biri de benim, askerliğini bile yapmamışsın abuk subuk konuşuyorsun burada. Kıbrıs dahil her türlü savaşta şehid vermemize rağmen senin gibi üç beş ucuz reklam yapıp vatansever ayaklarına yatmıyoruz.

Orospu çocuğu bir Alevi düşmanısın, yobazsın, köpeksin. Senin gibiler Türkiye'de yaşayamıyor zaten siktir olup gidiyor. Cem Evleri'ne kurban ol sen, sünni kardeşlerim geliyor hep beraber ibadet ediliyor orada. İnsan olmayı öğren önce sen, içinde nefret ve pislik olan sensin domuz dölü.

[Ice]

Içinde bulundugun kimlik bunaliminin amina koyim. Akp ajani bile olabilirsin.. Ben alevilerin hassas oldugu konulara dikkat ederdim ama senin gibiler yuzunden tahrike dayanamayip damarim atiyor. Belki iyi de oluyordur kim bilir.

[Instinct]

Içinde bulundugun kimlik bunaliminin amina koyim. Akp ajani bile olabilirsin.. Ben alevilerin hassas oldugu konulara dikkat ederdim ama senin gibiler yuzunden tahrike dayanamayip damarim atiyor. Belki iyi de oluyordur kim bilir.

Kimse kimlik bunalımı içerisinde değil gerizekalı. Şiilere, Alevilere, Hristiyanlar'a laf söyleyeceğine sürekli dön bir de kendine bak. O damarına da dikkat et, hiç bir Aleviye söyleme kesmesinler o atan damarını oralarda çok Alevi var zira bu konular çok hassas biliyorsun.

Sünniler'e laf söylemiyorum, sünniler benim kardeşim ve önemli olan insan olmak benim gözümde amma velakin senin gibi radikal islamcı birini gördüğümde deliriyorum mesele bu, Türkiye 50 yıl içinde Şii olacak lafını bile ciddi alacak kadar gözün dönmüş zamanım yok fazla haydi bye.

[Ice]

Madem kiviracaktin niye iki saat bosuna ugrastirdin. Ha soyle yola gel.

[Instinct]

Madem kiviracaktin niye iki saat bosuna ugrastirdin. Ha soyle yola gel.

Kıvıran yok ortada sikik.

On binlerce Alevi Türkmen'i katledeni hatırlatıp iyi yapmışlar diyecek kadar adisin, soyun sopun kurusun ve bunu ümit ediyorum başka bir şey değil.

[Ice]

Gokten kemik yaginca haber et..

[Instinct]

Madem kiviracaktin niye iki saat bosuna ugrastirdin. Ha soyle yola gel.

senin gibi şerefsiz sünniler kardeşim değil o ayrı, sen ancak vuracağım düşmanım olabilirsin.

[Instinct]

Gokten kemik yaginca haber et..

Şerefsizsin, düşünsene çoluğun çocuğun var ve katlediliyorsun. İyi olmuş desem mi sana? Sevinir misin?

Biraz empati kur, insan ol. Türkiye'de milyonlarca Alevi var, senin gibi düşünen sünniler de siktir olup gittiler ülkeden Maraş'ta ve Sivas'ta yaptıkları adilikten sonra.

[Instinct]

Ha, idrisi bitlis köpeğinin katliamına seviniyorsun da bunu sakın günümüz için düşünme sonuçları hiç iyi olmaz. Alevilerin nüfusu senin gibi düşünen yezid köpeklerden ve hatta hatta tüm lazlar senin gibi düşünüyorsa ki düşünmüyorlar fazla. Aklından çıkarma bunu, akıllı ol.

[Instinct]

Gokten kemik yaginca haber et..

Doğru kemik yiyorsun ya sen, köpek beslemeyi ben de severim gökten yağmasına gerek yok

[Ice]

Foruma uye olmayip burada yazilanlara okuyan alevvier varsa onlardan ozur dilerim. Milliyetçi alevilerle braber buyudum on numara insanlar. Arkadaslik yapmadigim ama hiçte tasvip etmedigim aleviler de gordum ki onlar azinlik. Bu instinc gotvereni yuzunden aleviler hakkinda nahos seyler yazdim. O yuzden alevilerden minus instinct ozur dilerim. Lutfen sevgili aleviler bunun gibi firlamalarin aranizdan çikmaniza izin vermeyin. Gerekirse timarhaneye kapatin yinede alevilerin adini lekelemesine izin vermeyin.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I compare my results with turkmens. I see many similarities. They have more mongloid genes but it's normal i guess, since anatolia was not empty when we have arrived..

I thought that the Turkmen were the stereotypical Turks once as well, but lately I begun to realize that the name Turk-man accounts for nothing. The original Turks arrived from much further east, especially if the first people to record them were the Chinese...


Shia is based on hate against sunnis. It's a dangerous indoctrination and very imperialistic. I wish iran became sunni again. Did you know that we turks learnt islam from iranians (sunni) and not from arabs?

Sunnis tend to be more violent than Shias. All the shitty Muslim stuff comes from the Sunnis: ISIS, Boko Haram, Taliban, Al-Shabab, Al-Qaeda... There is too little Shia shit flying around.

I know that the Seljuk Turks conquered Iran and got assimilated into the Muslim religion by the Persians, although I can't remember if that happened before the conquest or afterwards.

[Petros Houhoulis]

let's test it in tehran. wanna yell like "there is no allah, you muslims are all stupids" at there? if you can do this and turn your home in one piece, i will agree you and always attack sunnis here.

Why, would you have a better chance of survival in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan or Somalia or Yemen?

Cut that crap Turk, because the Sunnis kill people in Paris, Madrid, New York, London, Sydney... The Shias would not kill anyone farther away than Israel...

[Petros Houhoulis]

You are even a bigger threat to turks than pkk.. You idiot just dont realise it.

You just cross the line.

The Alevis, as more secular than the Sunnis, formed the backbone of Kemalism for ages.

Too bad for them that the Kemalists had them for granted and were willing to ditch them in order to appease the Sunnis in every occasion...

[Petros Houhoulis]

I didn't say sunnis are best. there are plenty of radical shia islamists and supporters of the current regime in iran. you're underestimating them.

Can't underestimate them. Iran has not started an offensive war during the last 100 years or more, which is something that few countries in the world can claim these days...

[Petros Houhoulis]

I always support azeri's in their fight for freedom, while this alevi is backing up iran and shia imperialism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_newspaper_cockroach_cartoon_controversy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhwgyU7KZK0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vSf1D--eaQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tyTKOlCT0Y

The Azeris of Persia don't seem very willing to be liberated though...

...Unlike the Kurds of Turkey...

[Petros Houhoulis]

That's not indian it's central asian.. European wannabe aryans are dying to have that. I got more ANE than average brit, german or greek.

I think original aryans live in india(upperclass, thus not youre look alikes) and some places in afghanistan and maybe iran. I can't deny their linguistic impact though.

The origin of the word "Aryan" is Persian...

[Petros Houhoulis]

What has isis to do with me? You bring isis, so people who are reading this topic would chose your side? Or they will think i support isis?

Iran and azerbaijan were once sunni, they should be sunni again.. it would be good for iranians too. they have oil, but they can't even produce plastiic or macaroni. Why? they give billions to shia arabs in iraq, lebanon while average iranian in iran is very poor.

Egypt used to be Shia... Should it become Shia as well?

Iran used to be Zoroastrian, should it become Zoroastrian again?

Iranians are suffering from Yankee sanctions, but they have ballz and weather them out, which is more than what can be said about Turkey which licks the Arabs for money every single day...

[Petros Houhoulis]

But... Why? Why does being Sunni means being more developed? What has Iran's underdevelopment to do with Iran being Shiite? I don't understand you.

Are you trying to understand a Muslim???

[just]

Reminds me of the person who I Know was crazy about Andronovo culture.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Iran is creating constant chaos.. They use their oil to support shia arabs. There is also proxy war going on between russia/china/india and israel/usa/saudi arabia. Iran is backed up by russia. They have to fight, not for their country but for russia's interests. If iran wasnt shia, arabs or muslims would still fight each other, but not on this level.. Turkey and iran could unite against wahabis..

In other words, If Iran was Sunni, you would still be fighting, but you would have different enemies...

Great deal!!!

[Petros Houhoulis]

If an armenian or anatolian (karamanides,pontic) greek said this. it could mean something. But who are you? Go to iran, turkey is sunni country. Kurdistan will be sunni too. There is no room for you. Except ... iran!

The Kurds are turning to Communism. There is no turn back after their conflict with ISIS...

Kurdistan shall divide and rule all over you!!!

[Petros Houhoulis]

I'm Turkish i speak from turkish perspective. Turkish+iranian alliance could beat wahhabis and maybe zionists too. Now it's too fucked up(balanced) Non-muslims decide what happens in muslim countries.

If you don't become technologically advanced, Non-Muslims shall ALWAYS decide what happens in Muslim countries, whether they are Sunni or Shia...

[KawaiiKawaii]

Are you trying to understand a Muslim???

Yes :D I still don't understand why Shias are worse than Sunnis though.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I'm the example of harmony between different ethnicities in turkey. I'm part laz but i'm ready to die for turkey. Turk,kurd,laz,circassian,georgian,bosniak they are all turkish to me. But you're shia leftover. You should go to iran.

It doesn't matter what they are to you. The Kurds don't want to be "mountain Turks" anymore, and you'll have to realize that, before you become a "lowland Kurd"!!!

[Petros Houhoulis]

I do.

Turkey will be Shia in 50 years.

Turkey will be Kurdish in 50 years...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Yes :D I still don't understand why Shias are worse than Sunnis though.

They are not. It's the usual quabbling between Shias and Sunnis.

[Böri]

But... Why? Why does being Sunni means being more developed? What has Iran's underdevelopment to do with Iran being Shiite? I don't understand you.

This isnt about sect. The Iranian regime is evil, they are responsible for the war in ME. The people of Iran can have same life standards as UAE people but they are poor people as the regime spend all money to spread radicalism. Iran must be secular and Mullah radicalism must end.

[KawaiiKawaii]

This isnt about sect. The Iranian regime is evil, they are responsible for the war in ME. The people of Iran can have same life standards as UAE people but they are poor people as the regime spend all money to spread radicalism. Iran must be secular and Mullah radicalism must end.

Iran's regime is evil... just like Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Saudi Arabia and Qatar are much more responsible for the war in the ME than Iran. They are after all the main financier of the various revolutions in the ME. Actually, Iran's regime is evil only for Iranians, whereas the rest are evil for everybody.

Iran is poor because of its regime, but mainly because they are isolated by the West from the international community. Don't get me wrong, I very much dislike the crazy Islamic regime, but this regime is not worse than the Saudi or Qatari one.

[Böri]

Iran is very important for sunni islam. Hadith scholars are mostly persian. I have also read rumi's mesnevi and sadi. Both persian.

It's a shame that a sunni sheikh was not happy about his position and became suddenly shia, and his grandson ismail invented qizilbash and has killed every sunni (turkoman,kurd,arab etc). And made iran shia.. If iran was a sunni country, they'd be like turkey, maybe even more developed.

That's right. Iran didnt allow any Sunnis and they killed them. Ottomans allowed Shias this why there is Alevi people in Turkey today.

[Böri]

Iran's regime is evil... just like Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Saudi Arabia and Qatar are much more responsible for the war in the ME than Iran. They are after all the main financier of the various revolutions in the ME. Actually, Iran's regime is evil only for Iranians, whereas the rest are evil for everybody.

Iran is poor because of its regime, but mainly because they are isolated by the West from the international community. Don't get me wrong, I very much dislike the crazy Islamic regime, but this regime is not worse than the Saudi or Qatari one.

Saudi and Qatar are open to world and they are developed countries. Iran isnt open, they have much oil and gas but Iranian people must work in UAE as toilet cleaners. Iranian regime are evils. They started radicalism in ME, they push people identify with sect above everything. This is why Iraqi Turkmens are divided. ISIS story is same this is reaction to Iranian sectarianism.

[Böri]

You just cross the line.

The Alevis, as more secular than the Sunnis, formed the backbone of Kemalism for ages.

Too bad for them that the Kemalists had them for granted and were willing to ditch them in order to appease the Sunnis in every occasion...

Kemalists are secular Sunni Turks not Shias. This was always same. Turkey was always ruled by Sunnis.

[KawaiiKawaii]

Saudi and Qatar are open to world and they are developed countries. Iran isnt open, they have much oil and gas but Iranian people must work in UAE as toilet cleaners. Iranian regime are evils. They started radicalism in ME, they push people identify with sect above everything. This is why Iraqi Turkmens are divided. ISIS story is same this is reaction to Iranian sectarianism.

Open to the world? They ban alcohol, women driving, they're still absolute monarchies, no democracy, no freedom of speech, sharia law, etc. Pretty closed to the world IMO. They're developed because they're allied with the West, meaning that they can freely develop themselves, while Iran is isolated by everybody, which means that they can't develop properly and must work as toilet cleaners in UAE as you said.

How did they start radicalism in the ME? Even if they did start it, I see mainly the Gulf states promoting radicalism these days, not Iran.

As I said, Iran and Saudi Arabia have pretty much the same national policies. Their international policies differ, and I see Saudi Arabia as the principal culprit financing terrorism in the ME and all over the world.

Of course, neither of these regimes have my sympathy.

[Böri]

I do.

Turkey will be Shia in 50 years.

No.Iranian regime will get destroyed. People hate religion in Iran as they see religion the reason for corruption, lack of equality and poverty despite all oil and gas. As regime use all money to spread Shia bigotry and radicalism

[Böri]

Open to the world? They ban alcohol, women driving, they're still absolute monarchies, no democracy, no freedom of speech, sharia law, etc. Pretty closed to the world IMO. They're developed because they're allied with the West, meaning that they can freely develop themselves, while Iran is isolated by everybody, which means that they can't develop properly and must work as toilet cleaners in UAE as you said.

How did they start radicalism in the ME? Even if they did start it, I see mainly the Gulf states promoting radicalism these days, not Iran.

As I said, Iran and Saudi Arabia have pretty much the same national policies. Their international policies differ, and I see Saudi Arabia as the principal culprit financing terrorism in the ME and all over the world.

Of course, neither of these regimes have my sympathy.

There is facts. You are European. There is millions Europeans working in Saudi or Qatar oil/gas industry. But not in Iran as this is a country like North Korea and closed to world. Also see google, Jeddah in Saudi or Dubai in Qatar are very developed cities with modern infrastructure. And you compare with Tehran in Iran, Tehran is like Angola its slums.
And Iran has lots oil and lots gas, Saudis only oil. Turkey has no oil or gas but at least two times more developed than Iran.

People in Iran especially young generations think this is because their religion and are all atheists. You don't know Iran, street prostitution is very spread as poverty-stricken people. There is also sex tourists who go to Tehran from Turkey as some women sell their body there. Only reason is their biggot regime who use money for spread Shia radicalism and they don't use money for improve people life.

[Ice]

Egypt used to be Shia... Should it become Shia as well?

Iran used to be Zoroastrian, should it become Zoroastrian again?

Iranians are suffering from Yankee sanctions, but they have ballz and weather them out, which is more than what can be said about Turkey which licks the Arabs for money every single day...

Egypt should stay muslim, they should threat christians better though. Iran is free to become zoroastrian. Would be good to all muslims.

Anyway, i visit apricity mostly for taxonomy. Yesterday was an exception. This is my last post in this thread.

[Demhat]

First of all let's be realistic and honest here. shia's muslims beeing more moderate is romantizing bullshit. Iran might not be as extreme as Saudi Arabia but it is not far away. Shia Iraqi Arabs are capably of as cruel acts as sunni Iraqis, no wonder after shia Iraqis taking over the power in Iraq the country is still a place full of shit. And I don't need to remind that Iran is hanging and stoning almost on daily basis. The one cut heads (Saudi Arabia) the other hang or stone you to death not much difference there. And Iran has assassinated oppositionals in Western countries since decades. Iran never started an offensive war on their own the last decades thats true, but the same is also the case with Saudi Arabia and Turkey because all three start proxy wars using other groups.
It's countries and their leadership simply with no sense for democracy and human rights.

[Demhat]

The Kurds are turning to Communism. There is no turn back after their conflict with ISIS...

Kurdistan shall divide and rule all over you!!!

Kurdistan is not turning into anything of that. We are neither horny about becoming North Korea, Soviet Union style communists nor do we want to turn into extreme capitalist country such as it is lived today in the US.

We will have our own political system with elements of both and some new elements.

[Böri]

Kurdistan is not turning into anything of that. We are neither horny about becoming North Korea, Soviet Union style communists nor do we want to turn into extreme capitalist country such as it is lived today in the US.

We will have our own political system with elements of both and some new elements.

He is right because PKK becomes strong in Kurdish politics. They have support of Syrian Kurds and control all lands, banned Barzani political parties in Jizira. Turkish Kurds also support PKK and in Iraq the Yezidis are with them also Talabani ideology close with them. Barzani is weak. Your Kurdistan will be North Korea of Middle East.

[Demhat]

He isn't right because the PKK has changed long time ago it's politics from communist into sozial Switzerland like Canton system as we see in Syrian Kurdistan.
There are some leftist groups which are affiliated to PKK and are communist but they don't belong to the PKK ruling class. If PKK was hardcore communist they wouldn't accept Western help against ISIS. PKK is more leftist than PDK true but both parties have a similar political system at the end of the day.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Kurdistan is not turning into anything of that. We are neither horny about becoming North Korea, Soviet Union style communists nor do we want to turn into extreme capitalist country such as it is lived today in the US.

We will have our own political system with elements of both and some new elements.

In any case, you won't get stuck into Islamism like most of the goons around you.

[Pennywise]

In any case, you won't get stuck into Islamism like most of the goons around you.

do you like kurds petros?

[Petros Houhoulis]

do you like kurds petros?

I prefer them from the Turks. They used to be more backward, but they have a greater potential - towards civilization - than the Turks nowadays...

[Pennywise]

I prefer them from the Turks. They used to be more backward, but they have a greater potential - towards civilization - than the Turks nowadays...

It's fine to me. So, if you so much love kurds, how about a 10 million of them? We can exile them to Greece.

[Demhat]

It's fine to me. So, if you so much love kurds, how about a 10 million of them? We can exile them to Greece.

How about you get your pseudo Turkic/Balkan or whatever ass to where it came from and we stay where we are,my "neutral(lol) friend". :)

[Instinct]

How about you get your pseudo Turkic/Balkan or whatever ass to where it came from and we stay where we are,my "neutral(lol) friend". :)

I bet not turkic but a balkan convert. He or she is not from Greece immigrants for sure. The only settlers I like from Greece (They are secular and modern).

[Petros Houhoulis]

It's fine to me. So, if you so much love kurds, how about a 10 million of them? We can exile them to Greece.

Unfortunately - for you - you can't...

[Demhat]

I bet not turkic but a balkan convert. He or she is not from Greece immigrants for sure. The only settlers I like from Greece (They are secular and modern).

Whatever he is now, he is not representative for his original people anymore.

[Petros Houhoulis]

This isnt about sect. The Iranian regime is evil, they are responsible for the war in ME. The people of Iran can have same life standards as UAE people but they are poor people as the regime spend all money to spread radicalism. Iran must be secular and Mullah radicalism must end.

The Iranian people cannot have the same standards with the UAE people because the Iranians are millions and the UAE folks are hundreds of thousands...

The shits who spread radicalism are all Sunni, and we know it from all over the world. Even the lunatic who stormed the cafe in Australia was a Sunni convert formerly Shia Iranian....

[Petros Houhoulis]

That's right. Iran didnt allow any Sunnis and they killed them. Ottomans allowed Shias this why there is Alevi people in Turkey today.

You just couldn't kill all of the Alevis. You had too many even for Selim I to massacre...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Saudi and Qatar are open to world and they are developed countries. Iran isnt open, they have much oil and gas but Iranian people must work in UAE as toilet cleaners. Iranian regime are evils. They started radicalism in ME, they push people identify with sect above everything. This is why Iraqi Turkmens are divided. ISIS story is same this is reaction to Iranian sectarianism.

The Saudis are still massacring their Shias:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7zgifyiqnA

Also in Bahrain:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWm6N32re8g

[Petros Houhoulis]

Kemalists are secular Sunni Turks not Shias. This was always same. Turkey was always ruled by Sunnis.

This is your misfortune. Turkey never ceased to be not just Muslim, but Sunni Muslim, the worst possible shit within the Muslims...

[Petros Houhoulis]

No.Iranian regime will get destroyed. People hate religion in Iran as they see religion the reason for corruption, lack of equality and poverty despite all oil and gas. As regime use all money to spread Shia bigotry and radicalism

The same applies for religion everywhere, but you Sunni Muzzies are still the most stupid of the lot. You shall fall the hardest eventually...

[Pennywise]

You just couldn't kill all of the Alevis. You had too many even for Selim I to massacre...

the uncomplete works are always be trouble. even same for here. you're right.

[Instinct]

the uncomplete works are always be trouble. even same for here. you're right.

says a non-turkic balkan fag.

No worries, the work you failed will bring your end.

[Pennywise]

How about you get your pseudo Turkic/Balkan or whatever ass to where it came from and we stay where we are,my "neutral(lol) friend". :)

if petros say yes. but you don't deserve to live our land. you are a separatist traitor scum.

[Ice]

do you like kurds petros?

He loves the kurds as much as we love the albanians and macedonians.

[Petros Houhoulis]

There is facts. You are European. There is millions Europeans working in Saudi or Qatar oil/gas industry. But not in Iran as this is a country like North Korea and closed to world.

Iran is not closed to the world like North Korea. Anybody can visit Iran. The fact that the Iranians use their own people for their industry instead of relying upon the West for every minor shit in their life only proves that they are smarter than you Sunnis...


Also see google, Jeddah in Saudi or Dubai in Qatar are very developed cities with modern infrastructure. And you compare with Tehran in Iran, Tehran is like Angola its slums.

Saudi Arabia and Dubai have more money and less problems than the Iranians, because they are Americas' poodles...


And Iran has lots oil and lots gas, Saudis only oil. Turkey has no oil or gas but at least two times more developed than Iran.

Turkey is not more developed than Iran. Iran is close to having a domestic nuclear industry. The Turks are nowhere near Iran despite the constant arselicking to both the Arabs and the West...


People in Iran especially young generations think this is because their religion and are all atheists.

They are smarter than you, not just now but always!!! (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?151801-Omar-Khayyam-his-calendar-the-Turks-and-other-stories)


You don't know Iran, street prostitution is very spread as poverty-stricken people.

Many immigrants from Afghanistan and elsewhere in Iran, same shit in Turkey...


There is also sex tourists who go to Tehran from Turkey as some women sell their body there.

Not with so many Syrians and Iraqis in Turkey right now!!!


Only reason is their biggot regime who use money for spread Shia radicalism and they don't use money for improve people life.

Oh they do, but they suffer heavy sanctions...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Egypt should stay muslim, they should threat christians better though. Iran is free to become zoroastrian. Would be good to all muslims.

Anyway, i visit apricity mostly for taxonomy. Yesterday was an exception. This is my last post in this thread.

Egypt would still be Muslim if it reverted back to Shia! I never suggested anything else, but in hindsight, it would be better for them to return to their ancient cult of the Pharaohs: Osiris, Isis, Seth and so on...

Keep posting, you'll need a lot of lubricant while debating me!!!

http://williamsburgsoftball.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/lube.jpg

[Petros Houhoulis]

He is right because PKK becomes strong in Kurdish politics. They have support of Syrian Kurds and control all lands, banned Barzani political parties in Jizira. Turkish Kurds also support PKK and in Iraq the Yezidis are with them also Talabani ideology close with them. Barzani is weak. Your Kurdistan will be North Korea of Middle East.

Not quite. The Yankees and the Jews shall make sure Kurdistan fucks your brains out in the long term, and if they fail, the Russkis have some payback for your support in Chechnya to Jihadists...

[Pennywise]

He loves the kurds as much as we love the albanians and macedonians.

it's a little bit confusing comparison. :) some turks like them somes are not.

[Petros Houhoulis]

if petros say yes. but you don't deserve to live our land. you are a separatist traitor scum.

I say that in 50 years, you will be sucking Kurdish cock...

[Petros Houhoulis]

He loves the kurds as much as we love the Albanians and Makedonishtanis.

We have no real troubles (war - rebellions) with either of them. They have troubles with each other though!

You have even worse troubles with the Kurds, and you have burnt ~4.000 Kurdish villages so far. Sooner or later, there shall be payback time...

[Duke]

bunch of Turks neg reped me on this thread, i see education, and keeping up with archeology and genetics is not on the level in turkey :)

[ordar]

Btw, i didnt say sycthians were turkic in origin, i dont think they were slav either. I'm just saying turks/turkics have absorbed sycithian blood.

I totally agree. Many Turkic people (in Central Asia, Siberia, the Volga region) have Scythian genes on the Y chromosome as well as autosomal. But of course this does not mean that the Scythians were Turkic-speaking.

[Proto-Shaman]

ok guys, lets set an end to this endless R1a indo-european or Turkic bs. I just say haplogroup P and Native American R + Q. Google and be quite.

[Demhat]

I totally agree. Many Turkic people (in Central Asia, Siberia, the Volga region) have Scythian genes on the Y chromosome as well as autosomal. But of course this does not mean that the Scythians were Turkic-speaking.

At least someone with sense so far.

[Petros Houhoulis]

ok guys, lets set an end to this endless R1a indo-european or Turkic bs. I just say haplogroup P and Native American R + Q. Google and be quite.

The only haplogroup spread from Japan and Korea to Turkey is the haplogroup C. The others are not spread all over the Altaic world, and have to be dismissed...

[Artek]

The only haplogroup spread from Japan and Korea to Turkey is the haplogroup C. The others are not spread all over the Altaic world, and have to be dismissed...
We have to agree that R1a was picked up and took part in expansion of Turkic people, although probably at least double % of of it was slaughtered as a result.

But any Z93 to some point in history spoke an indo-iranian language, that's beyond doubt to me. There are no genuinely Turkic branches of it aside from some very downstream clades.

[Petros Houhoulis]

We have to agree that R1a was picked up and took part in expansion of Turkic people, although probably at least double % of of it was slaughtered as a result.

Only in the direction of the west, since no R1a exists in Japan or China. Before that, C was certainly the original haplogroup.


But any Z93 to some point in history spoke an indo-iranian language, that's beyond doubt to me. There are no genuinely Turkic branches of it aside from some very downstream clades.

Indeed, R1a is Satem Indo-European...

[Bure]

you wanna see my scyth tattoo?

[Bure]

At least someone with sense so far.

that's true with the east turkic people in central asia, volga region, east ukraine etc having scythian genes. as i said bulgars, chuvash etc are descendants of scythians.
avars may as well

[Proto-Shaman]

edit

[Bure]

i don't read what a guy with a chechnya flag says anyway

[Proto-Shaman]

Guys, the Scytho-Iranic theory is an european dogma solely based on linguistic pseudo-science. If you still believe this myth (itself 100% refuted by genetics, anhtropology, ethnography etc)... it's up to you, I can only welcome you the the 21st century. The Indo-European culture is not a rival with the Turkic culture, their origins and histories are much interspersed, the protestations appearing in the posting are aimed solely at distortions and misrepresentations endemic to the Eurocentric offshoot of the science, and a full credit must be given to Eurocentrism for the studies that unwittingly advanced Turkology.

Coming to haplogroup C:

1. hp C is not limited to Altaics.
2. hp R is not limited to IE's.
3. Language groups share multiple hp's!
4. Altaic is not even an accepted family, and it never will.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54305&d=1421146680
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54304&d=1421146680

5. The most ancient source of R1a1 haplotypes is provided by the people now living in northern China. It was shown (Bittles et al., 2007) that for a number of Chinese (Sino-Tibetan+Altaic) populations, such as Hui, Bonan, Dongxiang, Salars, a percentage of R1a1 haplotypes reached 18% - 32%.

6. The gene pool of the Turkic-speaking peoples of Siberia such as Altaians, Khakas, Shors and Soyots, living between the Altai and Lake Baikal along the Sayan mountains, are genetically closest to Amerindians. Sorry, but I can't detect any sign of IE except of this (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2013/04/27/k-16-admixture-analysis-of-mongoloids/).

7. Turkic branch of hp P ! ... keep ignoring it...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Guys, the Scytho-Iranic theory is an european dogma solely based on linguistic pseudo-science.

It's based upon Herodotus. You have nothing to dispute Herodotus.


If you still believe this myth (itself 100% refuted by genetics, anhtropology, ethnography etc)... it's up to you, I can only welcome you the the 21st century. The Indo-European culture is not a rival with the Turkic culture,

We have proof of the Indo-Europeans' culture since many thousand years ago. The Turkic's origins elude us in terms of history, and you'd better get used to it. The only thing left is genetics, and in terms of genetics all of Asia is mixed beyond reasonable recognition.


their origins and histories are much interspersed, the protestations appearing in the posting are aimed solely at distortions and misrepresentations endemic to the Eurocentric offshoot of the science, and a full credit must be given to Eurocentrism for the studies that unwittingly advanced Turkology.

Turkology is mere speculation prior to the time of Jesus Christ, and much later too! Can't help you if you are a rather modern people...


Coming to haplogroup C:

1. hp C is not limited to Altaics.

It is present to many people, but it is present to ALL OF THE ALTAICS. That's what matters.


2. hp R is not limited to IE's.

It is present to ALL OF THE IndoEuropeans. That's what matters.


3. Language groups share multiple hp's!

Everybody is a bastard since thousand of years ago, or else we would all be retards. We are trying to trace the original haplogroups of every language family, not those who were picked up along the way.


4. Altaic is not even an accepted family, and it never will.

It is!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages


Altaic / (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)æ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)l (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ˈ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)t (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)eɪ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ɨ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)k (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English) is a proposed language family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_family) of central Eurasia. Various versions include the Turkic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_languages), Mongolic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolic_languages), Tungusic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungusic_languages), Koreanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreanic_languages), and Japonic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japonic_languages).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages#cite_note-1) These languages are spoken in a wide arc stretching from northeast Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia) through Central Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia) to Anatolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia) and eastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages#cite_note-2) The group is named after the Altai Mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_Mountains), a mountain range in Central Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia).
The Altaic language families share numerous characteristics. The debate is over the origin of their similarities. One camp, often called the "Altaicists", views these similarities as arising from common descent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_relationship_%28linguistics%29) from a proto-Altaic language spoken several thousand years ago. The other camp, often called the "anti-Altaicists", views these similarities as arising from areal interaction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_contact) between the language groups concerned. Some linguists believe the case for either interpretation is about equally strong; they have been called the "skeptics".[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages#cite_note-3)
Another view accepts Altaic as a valid family but includes in it only Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic. This view was widespread prior to the 1960s, but has almost no supporters among specialists today.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages#cite_note-4) The expanded grouping, including Korean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_language) and Japanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_language), came to be known as "Macro-Altaic", leading to the designation of the smaller grouping as "Micro-Altaic" by retronymy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retronym). Most proponents of Altaic continue to support the inclusion of Korean and Japanese.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages#cite_note-China_2008-5)
Micro-Altaic includes about 66 living languages,[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages#cite_note-6) to which Macro-Altaic would add Korean, Japanese, and the Ryukyuan languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryukyuan_languages) for a total of about 74. (These are estimates, depending on what is considered a language and what is considered a dialect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_or_dialect). They do not include earlier states of languages, such as Middle Mongol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Mongol_language) or Old Japanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Japanese).)



Get over it!




http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54305&d=1421146680
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54304&d=1421146680

5. The most ancient source of R1a1 haplotypes is provided by the people now living in northern China. It was shown (Bittles et al., 2007) that for a number of Chinese (Sino-Tibetan+Altaic) populations, such as Hui, Bonan, Dongxiang, Salars, a percentage of R1a1 haplotypes reached 18% - 32%.

For the moment, that is true. Nobody can prove this is the last evidence that shall be uncovered in the future. Furthermore, the vast majority of the ancient genetic samples are gone, this is why you need to take into accounts of history and archaeology as well...


6. The gene pool of the Turkic-speaking peoples of Siberia such as Altaians, Khakas, Shors and Soyots, living between the Altai and Lake Baikal along the Sayan mountains, are genetically closest to Amerindians. Sorry, but I can't detect any sign of IE except of this (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2013/04/27/k-16-admixture-analysis-of-mongoloids/).

All of these Amerindians are C haplogroup, which further proves my point that the C haplogroup is the origin of the Turkic speaking people.


7. Turkic branch of hp P ! ... keep ignoring it...

It's a branch, not the trunk! The trunk is the C haplogroup...

[Proto-Shaman]

It's based upon Herodotus. You have nothing to dispute Herodotus.
Actually Heredotus said nothing about the relationship of the Scythian languages. And he knew Persian very well btw. What you have meant was Vasily Abaev in the 50's. Since then the majority of European sholarship accepted the Scytho-Iranic theory which is providentially weakening again since the last 24 years.


We have proof of the Indo-Europeans' culture since many thousand years ago. The Turkic's origins elude us in terms of history, and you'd better get used to it. The only thing left is genetics, and in terms of genetics all of Asia is mixed beyond reasonable recognition.
Read A. Klyosov's papers and became enlightened about dna genealogy contradicting Indo-European expansion theories.


Turkology is mere speculation prior to the time of Jesus Christ, and much later too! Can't help you if you are a rather modern people...
Turkology began as a periphery of european romanticism in the 18th c.


It is present to many people, but it is present to ALL OF THE ALTAICS. That's what matters.
Kazakhs are not the only Turkic nation. Sorry, but your argument has no foundation.


It is present to ALL OF THE IndoEuropeans. That's what matters.
So, at the end Indo-Europeans even made it to North America... :picard2:


Everybody is a bastard since thousand of years ago, or else we would all be retards. We are trying to trace the original haplogroups of every language family, not those who were picked up along the way.
This is blinkered thinking, very common among humans, but that's normal. The problem is Turkics have almost no founder effects for R. They have the most ancient R1b haplotypes for example. Another big problem is Basque R1b which is NON-Indo-European! Haplogroups do not correlate 100% with language families.


It is!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages

Get over it!
Can you read?

"This view was widespread prior to the 1960s, but has almost no supporters among specialists today.[4]"

Let alone macro-Altaic, not even micro-Altaic is accepted. Do you remeber Tuna's last words btw?


For the moment, that is true. Nobody can prove this is the last evidence that shall be uncovered in the future. Furthermore, the vast majority of the ancient genetic samples are gone, this is why you need to take into accounts of history and archaeology as well...
I hope so, too. I am especially waiting for the new ANE results.


All of these Amerindians are C haplogroup, which further proves my point that the C haplogroup is the origin of the Turkic speaking people.

It's a branch, not the trunk! The trunk is the C haplogroup...
Haplogroup P is almost absent in modern populations but it still peaks in central Asian Turkic nations. The trunk of Turkics is R, hell can't you get it? BTW, a Kazakh Turk (P-M45) from Kyrgyzstan still holds the record of being ancestral to nearly 2.5 billion people. C is only common among the half of Kazakhs and is just the link with Na-Dené and Tungusic tribes. That's all behind the story.

[Pennywise]

Actually Heredotus said nothing about the relationship of the Scythian languages. And he knew Persian very well btw. What you have meant was Vasily Abaev in the 50's. Since then the majority of European sholarship accepted the Scytho-Iranic theory which is providentially weakening again since the last 24 years.


Read A. Klyosov's papers and became enlightened about dna genealogy contradicting Indo-European expansion theories.


Turkology began as a periphery of european romanticism in the 18th c.


Kazakhs are not the only Turkic nation. Sorry, but your argument has no foundation.


So, at the end Indo-Europeans even made it to North America... :picard2:


This is blinkered thinking, very common among humans, but that's normal. The problem is Turkics have almost no founder effects for R. They have the most ancient R1b haplotypes for example. Another big problem is Basque R1b which is NON-Indo-European! Haplogroups do not correlate 100% with language families.


Can you read?

"This view was widespread prior to the 1960s, but has almost no supporters among specialists today.[4]"

Let alone macro-Altaic, not even micro-Altaic is accepted. Do you remeber Tuna's last words btw?


I hope so, too. I am especially waiting for the new ANE results.


Haplogroup P is almost absent in modern populations but it still peaks in central Asian Turkic nations. The trunk of Turkics is R, hell can't you get it? BTW, a Kazakh Turk (P-M45) from Kyrgyzstan still holds the record of being ancestral to nearly 2.5 billion people. C is only common among the half of Kazakhs and is just the link with Na-Dené and Tungusic tribes. That's all behind the story.

Klyosov's work is really interesting actually. His claims are hypothesis but based on many data. He claimed that r1b spreading made by turkic speakers but it was linguistically critized.

[Proto-Shaman]

Klyosov's work is really interesting actually. His claims are hypothesis but based on many data. He claimed that r1b spreading made by turkic speakers but it was linguistically critized.
His claims are very new in the european spectrum. It will be a long debate, but it was really necessary. I actually don't believe that R1b was spread only by Turkic languages into Europe. What he really meant was likely a Nostratic offshoot of 4 main linguistic branches: Basque, North Caucasian, Italo-Celtic & Turkic. Even though, in terms of genealogy he brought a lot of light into the dark.

[Pennywise]

His claims are very new in the european spectrum. It will be a long debate, but it was really necessary. I actually don't believe that R1b was spread only by Turkic languages into Europe. What he really meant was likely a Nostratic offshoot of 4 main linguistic branches: Basque, North Caucasian, Italo-Celtic & Turkic. Even though, in terms of genealogy he brought a lot of light into the dark.

Well, I don't know the reflection of his works on academia. Most of his articles in Russian, I can't read them. As far as I know, his works are not considering reliable source in wikipedia. Many of them self-published and I didn't saw anybody who reffering him.

[Proto-Shaman]

Well, I don't know the reflection of his works on academia. Most of his articles in Russian, I can't read them. As far as I know, his works are not considering reliable source in wikipedia. Many of them self-published and I didn't saw anybody who reffering him.
Yes, Wikipedia is a strange thing, usually I don't read its stuff because everbody can edit the contents. Aren't Klyosov's papers also published by SciRes (http://science.psu.edu/current-students/science-research-distinction-scires-undergraduate-certificate-program)?

[Proto-Shaman]

Indeed, R1a is Satem Indo-European...
If you ask me Turkic languages preserved both linguistic elements, Satem and Centum.

[Pennywise]

Yes, Wikipedia is a strange thing, usually I don't read its stuff because everbody can edit the contents. Aren't Klyosov's papers also published by SciRes (http://science.psu.edu/current-students/science-research-distinction-scires-undergraduate-certificate-program)?

No, not all of them I guess.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Actually Heredotus said nothing about the relationship of the Scythian languages. And he knew Persian very well btw. What you have meant was Vasily Abaev in the 50's. Since then the majority of European sholarship accepted the Scytho-Iranic theory which is providentially weakening again since the last 24 years.

Herodotus didn't say anything about the Scythian langauge, he simply preserved the words, and his knowledge of Persian is questionable at best. You cannot destroy that evidence... You never will.


Read A. Klyosov's papers and became enlightened about dna genealogy contradicting Indo-European expansion theories.

Klyosov is an idiot, and he is not the only one. Arnaiz-Villena did the same shit, and Greeks like Triandafyllidis are also doing the same shit. His claims in linguistics are lame - to say the least - since he is NOT a linguist, and his lies are laughable. Take a look at this one for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatole_Klyosov



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Klyosov was the first person in the early 1980 USSR to use the global computer network that later became the Internet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internet).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatole_Klyosov#cite_note-3)
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

THE YANKEES INVENTED THE INTERNET, NOT THE RUSSKIS!!!

SOMEBODY TELL THAT IDIOT TO STOP MAKING RIDICULOUS CLAIMS...

Turkology began as a periphery of european romanticism in the 18th c.
We are not in the 18th century, and the various Eurocentric theories - especially about race - have been thrown out of the window ever since the end of WWII. You'd better stop complaining for bias nowadays...

Kazakhs are not the only Turkic nation. Sorry, but your argument has no foundation.
Nobody said that the Kazakhs are the only Turkic nation. What I said is that the C haplogroup is present in ALL OF THE ALTAIC SPEAKING PEOPLE. Get used to it!

So, at the end Indo-Europeans even made it to North America... :picard2:
We are not talking about North America, but even in North America a huge number of European colonists belong to the R1b haplogroup. Don't masturbate.

This is blinkered thinking, very common among humans, but that's normal. The problem is Turkics have almost no founder effects for R. They have the most ancient R1b haplotypes for example.
Those R1b could have spoken Indo-European in the past, and most probably they did. Just because the Turks speak Turkish today, it doesn't mean that the people of Turkey always spoke Turkish. Try to use your brain for a while!

Another big problem is Basque R1b which is NON-Indo-European! Haplogroups do not correlate 100% with language families.
Nobody said that Haplogroups correlate even 1% with language families. The point was that all language families have at least a minimal amount of genetic material surviving from the earliest users of the language family. I don't know which Haplogroup relates to the Basque language, I never looked for it! It is difficult to estimate anything about the Basques, because we cannot fit them in any language family.

Can you read?
"This view was widespread prior to the 1960s, but has almost no supporters among specialists today.[4]"
This sentence was following the sentence Another view accepts Altaic as a valid family but includes in it only Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic. It means that everybody accepts that Korean and Japanese are part of the family nowadays, unlike in the past. In any case, another sentence makes clear of what the meaning is:
Most proponents of Altaic continue to support the inclusion of Korean and Japanese.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages#cite_note-China_2008-5)

Let alone macro-Altaic, not even micro-Altaic is accepted. Do you remeber Tuna's last words btw?
Both Micro-Altaic and Macro-Altaic are ACCEPTED EQUALLY.

I hope so, too. I am especially waiting for the new ANE results.
Haplogroup P is almost absent in modern populations but it still peaks in central Asian Turkic nations. The trunk of Turkics is R, hell can't you get it?
The trunk of Greeks is J/E Middle Eastern/African genes, but the Greek language is INDOEUROPEAN. That's because the Greeks conquered the Neolithic farmers of Greece and imposed their language upon them. The same applies with the Turkics: They conquered other people and imposed their language upon them. Do you seriously suggest that Turkey speaks Turkish because it has a lot of R genes? Fuck, their R genes are even fewer than the Greek R genes!!! In either case, it is irrelevant: We know that the people of Turkey begun speaking Turkish only AFTER the Turks conquered Turkey...

BTW, a Kazakh Turk (P-M45) from Kyrgyzstan still holds the record of being ancestral to nearly 2.5 billion people.
This proves nothing at all. He lives in the center of the largest continent of Earth, so I wouldn't be surprised...

C is only common among the half of Kazakhs and is just the link with Na-Dené and Tungusic tribes. That's all behind the story.
C is common in ALL OF THE ALTAIC SPEAKING PEOPLE. R is not present in the Japanese or the Korean people. Even if the Japanese and Korean languages only have an "aerial" relationship with Turkish (as you suggest but nobody accepts since the 1960's) then they wouldn't only share linguistic traits, they would also share genes... and THIS IS NOT THE CASE...

[Petros Houhoulis]

His claims are very new in the european spectrum. It will be a long debate, but it was really necessary. I actually don't believe that R1b was spread only by Turkic languages into Europe. What he really meant was likely a Nostratic offshoot of 4 main linguistic branches: Basque, North Caucasian, Italo-Celtic & Turkic. Even though, in terms of genealogy he brought a lot of light into the dark.

Nostratic remains a fable for the moment. People cannot reconstruct properly Proto-Indo-European or Proto-Altaic, and some fool thinks he can trace Nostratic???

[Petros Houhoulis]

If you ask me Turkic languages preserved both linguistic elements, Satem and Centum.

Many languages have both Centum and Satem elements. Parts of the French language have been under Satemization for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum%E2%80%93satem_isogloss#The_Satem_concept


Satem-like features have arisen multiple times during history (e.g. French cent pron. [sã], Spanish ciento). As a result, it is sometimes difficult to firmly establish which languages were part of the original Satem diffusion and which were affected by secondary assibilation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assibilation) in a later time period. While extensive documentation of Latin and Old Swedish shows that the assibilation found in French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language) and Swedish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_language) were later developments, there are not enough records of Dacian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language) and Thracian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language) to conclusively settle the issue of when their Satem-like features originated. Extensive lexical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexicon) borrowing, such as Armenian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language) from Iranian, may also add to the difficulty. The status of Armenian as a Satem language as opposed to a Centum language with secondary assibilation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assibilation) rests on the evidence of a very few words.

[Demhat]

This is blinkered thinking, very common among humans, but that's normal. The problem is Turkics have almost no founder effects for R. They have the most ancient R1b haplotypes for example. Another big problem is Basque R1b which is NON-Indo-European! Haplogroups do not correlate 100% with language families.


You are actually turning arguments against a Turkic origin of R* (Haplogroup R* is over 30000 years old how the fuck can any modern nationality be that old) for it.

It is actually quite the opposite almost all R in Turks is based on Bottleneck and founder effect. There is no "ancient " R1b in Turks but almost all of it is m73. The only basal R1b* (m343) in Central Asia so far is found among 13% of the Kurds from Kazakhstan who were settled there by Stalin. Otherwise all other R1b m343 is found in Western Asia.

[Proto-Shaman]

Many languages have both Centum and Satem elements. Parts of the French language have been under Satemization for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum%E2%80%93satem_isogloss#The_Satem_concept
Just saying because Turkic knows both forms:

kün - sün (day, light, sun)
köpek - söpek (male dog, female dog) etc..


Nostratic remains a fable for the moment. People cannot reconstruct properly Proto-Indo-European or Proto-Altaic, and some fool thinks he can trace Nostratic???
Nostratic is the rising sun in the linguistics :)


Herodotus didn't say anything about the Scythian langauge, he simply preserved the words, and his knowledge of Persian is questionable at best. You cannot destroy that evidence... You never will.
The evidence is Abaev not Herodotus. Abaev is the father of the fake Scytho-Iranian acceptance. Pseudo-linguistics at its best. If Herodotus knew what Abaev did to his works, he would have beaten him to the moon xD


Klyosov is an idiot, and he is not the only one. Arnaiz-Villena did the same shit, and Greeks like Triandafyllidis are also doing the same shit. His claims in linguistics are lame - to say the least - since he is NOT a linguist, and his lies are laughable. Take a look at this one for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatole_Klyosov

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

THE YANKEES INVENTED THE INTERNET, NOT THE RUSSKIS!!!

SOMEBODY TELL THAT IDIOT TO STOP MAKING RIDICULOUS CLAIMS...
Sorry, but your argument is blasphemy and has no foundation. This happens when people have no qualitative argumentation.


We are not in the 18th century, and the various Eurocentric theories - especially about race - have been thrown out of the window ever since the end of WWII. You'd better stop complaining for bias nowadays...
Eurocentrism is an interdisciplinary term for a start :picard2:


Nobody said that the Kazakhs are the only Turkic nation. What I said is that the C haplogroup is present in ALL OF THE ALTAIC SPEAKING PEOPLE. Get used to it!
And haplogroup R is representing the main bulk of the Turkic peoples, then comes J, then N, and then Q, and then C. Talking about getting used to it?


We are not talking about North America, but even in North America a huge number of European colonists belong to the R1b haplogroup. Don't masturbate.
Colonialist R1b is based on new mutations from Europe (very young). But Native American R1b mutations are ancient from Asia. You don't even know the ABC of genetics, what a waste of time :picard2:


Those R1b could have spoken Indo-European in the past, and most probably they did.
Maybe in your imagination? What you have said is not even registered as a credible theory.


Just because the Turks speak Turkish today, it doesn't mean that the people of Turkey always spoke Turkish. Try to use your brain for a while!
I mean the general Turkic R1b-M73 areas:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54339&d=1421234018

What a coincidence that Turkic has the most ancient R1b haplotypes.


Nobody said that Haplogroups correlate even 1% with language families. The point was that all language families have at least a minimal amount of genetic material surviving from the earliest users of the language family.
So what's your problem?


I don't know which Haplogroup relates to the Basque language, I never looked for it! It is difficult to estimate anything about the Basques, because we cannot fit them in any language family.
Clever boy, Basques are 90% R1b, but still NON-Indo-European.


This sentence was following the sentence Another view accepts Altaic as a valid family but includes in it only Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic. It means that everybody accepts that Korean and Japanese are part of the family nowadays, unlike in the past. In any case, another sentence makes clear of what the meaning is:
Most proponents of Altaic continue to support the inclusion of Korean and Japanese.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages#cite_note-China_2008-5)
Holy shit, your knowledge of English is not very well, isn't it?

This view (you have mentioned above) "... was widespread prior to the 1960s, but has almost no supporters among specialists today.[4]"


Both Micro-Altaic and Macro-Altaic are ACCEPTED EQUALLY.
Where is it written? In a Petros Houhoulis guide book?


The trunk of Greeks is J/E Middle Eastern/African genes, but the Greek language is INDOEUROPEAN. That's because the Greeks conquered the Neolithic farmers of Greece and imposed their language upon them. The same applies with the Turkics: They conquered other people and imposed their language upon them. Do you seriously suggest that Turkey speaks Turkish because it has a lot of R genes? Fuck, their R genes are even fewer than the Greek R genes!!! In either case, it is irrelevant: We know that the people of Turkey begun speaking Turkish only AFTER the Turks conquered Turkey...
Central Asian R1b lines always spoke Turkic. Turkey is another case of its own. Don't derail from the topic.


This proves nothing at all. He lives in the center of the largest continent of Earth, so I wouldn't be surprised...
So then, let's wait for the next central Asian Turk breaking the record xD


C is common in ALL OF THE ALTAIC SPEAKING PEOPLE. R is not present in the Japanese or the Korean people. Even if the Japanese and Korean languages only have an "aerial" relationship with Turkish (as you suggest but nobody accepts since the 1960's) then they wouldn't only share linguistic traits, they would also share genes... and THIS IS NOT THE CASE...

This is not true. Korean and Japanese do not just share an areal relationship with Turkish but also an areal relationship with C. Yakut SAKA Turks for example have 90% N, haplogroup C is not common among them. The same is evident for other Turkic nations.

You really want to create a relationship with Australian Aboriginal languages? :picard2::picard2::picard2::picard2:

http://hanisyria.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/haplogroup-c.jpg

___________________

Artek, Artek, Artek, now I see your level of knowledge.

[Proto-Shaman]

You are actually turning arguments against a Turkic origin of R* (Haplogroup R* is over 30000 years old how the fuck can any modern nationality be that old) for it.
No, I am defending Nostratic-like origins. Because it's the only logical non-dogmatic theory.


It is actually quite the opposite almost all R in Turks is based on Bottleneck and founder effect. There is no "ancient " R1b in Turks but almost all of it is m78. The only basal R1b* (m343) in Central Asia so far is found among 13% of the Kurds from Kazakhstan who were settled there by Stalin. Otherwise all other R1b m343 is found in Western Asia.
This is not true. Turkic R1b is 16.000 years old and shares the oldest common ancestor with European R1b. These are information you should have known before arguing.

[Demhat]

with a "Nostratic like " origin of P* and K* in general I could agree. Since Q, R, N O etc all share a common origin as "Eurasian" lineages.

But 16000 years of Turkic origin? Man use common sense.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Just saying because Turkic knows both forms:
kün - sün (day, light, sun)
köpek - söpek (male dog, female dog) etc..
Nostratic is the rising sun in the linguistics :)
Hope dies last I guess... But Nostratic would not help the Altaic cause, and it is not the rising sun. The Sun language theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Language_Theory) has already set in the mud of the Islamic mythology (not to mention shit!!!)

The evidence is Abaev not Herodotus. Abaev is the father of the fake Scytho-Iranian acceptance. Pseudo-linguistics at its best. If Herodotus knew what Abaev did to his works, he would have beaten him to the moon xD
The source is Herodotus. Read AGAIN:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#Herodotus.27_Scythian_etymologi es

Herodotus' Scythian etymologies

The Greek historian Herodotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus) provides another source of Scythian; he reports that the Scythians called the Amazons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons) Oiorpata, and explains the name as a compound of oior, meaning "man", and pata, meaning "to kill" (Hist. 4,110).


Most scholars associate oior "man" with Avestan vīra- "man, hero", Sanskrit vīra-, Latin vir (gen. virī) "man, hero, husband",[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#cite_note-12)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#cite_note-13) PIE *u̯iHro-. Various explanations account for pata "kill":

Avestan paiti- "lord", Sanskrit pati-, PIE *poti-, cf. Lat. potestate (i.e. "man-ruler");[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#cite_note-14)
Ossetian maryn "kill", Pashto mrəl, Sanskrit mārayati, PIE *mer- "die" (confusion of Greek Μ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_%28letter%29) and Π (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_%28letter%29));[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#cite_note-15)
Ossetian fædyn "cleave", Sanskrit pātayati "fell", PIE *peth₂- "fall".[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#cite_note-16)


Alternatively, one scholar suggests Iranian aiwa- "one" + warah- "breast",[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#cite_note-17) the Amazons believed to have removed a breast to aid drawing a bow, according to some ancient folklorists, and as reflected in Greek folk-etymology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk-etymology): a- (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privative_a) (privative) + mazos, "without breast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast)".

Elsewhere Herodotus explains the name of the mythical one-eyed tribe Arimaspoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arimaspi) as a compound of the Scythian words arima, meaning "one", and spu, meaning "eye" (Hist. 4,27).


Some scholars connect arima "one" with Ossetian ærmæst "only", Avestic airime "quiet", Greek erēmos "empty", PIE *h₁(e)rh₁mo-?, and spu "eye" with Avestic spas- "foretell", Sanskrit spaś-, PIE *speḱ- "see".[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#cite_note-18)
However, Iranian usually expresses "one" and "eye" with words like aiwa- and čašman- (Ossetian īw and cæst).
Other scholars reject Herodotus' etymology and derive the ethnonym Arimaspoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arimaspi) from Iranian aspa- "horse" instead.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#cite_note-19)
Or the first part of the name may reflect something like Iranian raiwant- "rich", cf. Ossetian riwæ "rich".[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#cite_note-20)

Herodotus' Scythian theonyms

Herodotus also gives a list of Scythian theonyms (Hist. 4.59):


Tabiti = (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_Graeca) Hestia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hestia). Perhaps related to Sanskrit Tapatī, a heroine in the Mahābhārata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata), literally "the burning (one)".[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#cite_note-21)
Papaios = Zeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus). Either "father" (Herodotus) or "protector", Avestan, Sanskrit pā- "protect", PIE *peh₃-.[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#cite_note-22)
Api = Gaia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_%28mythology%29). Either "mother"[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#cite_note-23) or "water", Avestan, Sanskrit āp-, PIE Hep-[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#cite_note-24)
Goitosyros or Oitosyros = Apollo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo). Perhaps Avestan gaēθa- "animal" + sūra- "rich".[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#cite_note-25)
Argimpasa or Artimpasa = Aphrodite Urania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aphrodite_Urania). To Ossetic art and Pashto or, "fire", Avestan āθra-.[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#cite_note-26)
Thagimasadas = Poseidon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poseidon).



Sorry, but your argument is blasphemy and has no foundation. This happens when people have no qualitative argumentation.
It seems that Klyosov is a self-promoting raskal. Any reasonable person would have deducted this conclusion by now. Are his works peer-reviewed? Or are they complete bullcrap like he is?

Eurocentrism is an interdisciplinary term for a start :picard2:
Eurocentrism/Aryanism/Racism died as a result of WWII. Get used to it!

And haplogroup R is representing the main bulk of the Turkic peoples, then comes J, then N, and then Q, and then C. Talking about getting used to it?
The bulk of the Greek people have E1b1b/J2 genes, but nobody suggests that those genes gave birth to the Greek language. The Greek language is an Indo-European language, and the entire Indo-European family is based upon the haplogroup R. The folks in Sardinia are also predominantly I2, but their language is also predominantly Indo-European. Why don't they speak a language deriving from the I haplogroup instead of the Indo-European language which relates to the R haplogroup?
The Altaic speakers used to belong to the C haplogroup, but converted huge masses of the R haplogroup in the long term. There is no other explanation!

Colonialist R1b is based on new mutations from Europe (very young). But Native American R1b mutations are ancient from Asia.
I am not interested in the Amerindian R1b. This is further proof that R people switched to a non-synthetic language, since the most of the Amerindian people do not speak a synthetic language... Yet the R haplogroup is in the majority of the Amerindians in NorthEast Canada! Only the Navajo, Nahuatl, Mohawk, Quechua and a few other Amerindian languages - in most probability - copied the synthetic language spoken by their R haplogroup ancestors.

You don't even know the ABC of genetics, what a waste of time http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm2.gif
We are not debating genetics. We are debating linguistics, and we use genetics as one of the few tools available... Nobody denies that the trunk of the Turkic speaking people are R today. What is denied is the notion that those R haplogroup people were Altaic speaking in the past, especially before the Turkish domination over them!

Maybe in your imagination? What you have said is not even registered as a credible theory.
It is more than a probability. I am creating my own version of "Nostratic" I guess, just as you make yours!

I mean the general Turkic R1b-M73 areas:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54339&d=1421234018
What a coincidence that Turkic has the most ancient R1b haplotypes.
Demhat disagrees that the most ancient R1b haplotypes are Turkic, and in any way it is irrelevant, since they could have been Turkicized over many thousand years... Like so many people, including the modern Turks!

So what's your problem?
My problem is that we are looking for the ORIGINAL SPEAKERS OF ALTAIC, not the modern speakers of Altaic who have switched to an Altaic language after a conquest...

Clever boy, Basques are 90% R1b, but still NON-Indo-European.
The Basque language is related to some of the remaining 10% of the genes, which is actually a further proof of my theory, because in the same token, even if 90% of the Altaic speakers were either R1a or R1b, this would not be proof that the Altaic language originates in either haplogroup, just as the Basque language does not originate in the R1b haplogoup!!!
BTW, you and Klyosov should coordinate each other and decide whether Altaic presumably originates from R1a (as he hallucinates) or from a subclade of R1b [R1b-M73] (as you hallucinate) because you are getting more ridiculous by the hour!!!

Holy shit, your knowledge of English is not very well, isn't it?
Most proponents of Altaic continue to support the inclusion of Korean and Japanese.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages#cite_note-China_2008-5)

This view (you have mentioned above) "... was widespread prior to the 1960s, but has almost no supporters among specialists today.[4]"
Exactly: People used to think that Japanese and Korean were not part of Altaic prior to the 1960's, but this view is COLLAPSED TODAY. GET USED TO IT!!!

Where is it written? In a Petros Houhoulis guide book?
I quote wikipedia. Maybe you should read the same passage a million times until you understand it!

Central Asian R1b lines always spoke Turkic. Turkey is another case of its own. Don't derail from the topic.
You can't prove that, no extant sources survive, and you can't prove why Altaic speakers in Korea and Japan have no R1b lineage. Your fable is crumbling!!!

So then, let's wait for the next central Asian Turk breaking the record xD
It would still be irrelevant, because you can't possibly know what language the ancestor of any of those Turks spoke! Them speaking Turkish today is as much relevant as the Turks of Turkey speaking Turkish today!!!

This is not true. Korean and Japanese do not just share an areal relationship with Turkish but also an areal relationship with C. Yakut SAKA Turks for example have 90% N, haplogroup C is not common among them. The same is evident for other Turkic nations.
That is exactly the problem: Even if the relation between all Altaic languages is aerial, the "aerial mix" would not have taken place without a genetic mix as well (since there was no religion like Judaism to apply rigid enforcment of blood relations) and the conclusion is that all of the Altaic languages begun with the C haplogroup, which is shared by all of them! It doesn't matter how common the C haplogroup is in ANY population. The Hungarians have as little as 0.5% of the N haplogroup, and yet they speak an Uralic language shared by other people whose common link is the N haplogroup as well!
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

<tbody>
[QUOTE]Region/Haplogroup
I1
I2*/I2a
I2b
R1a
R1b
G

J2
J*/J1
E1b1b
T
Q
N

</tbody>




<tbody>
Hungary
8.5
16
2
29.5
18.5
3.5
6.5
3
8
0
0
0.5
http://www.eupedia.com/images/design/rate09.gif


</tbody>

You see, a 0.5% of all the Hungarians assimilated the other 99.5% into the Hungarian language in the long term!
The rest of the N haplogroup in Europe south of Estonia and Finland were absorbed by the Indo-European peoples!
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-N.gif


You really want to create a relationship with Australian Aboriginal languages? :picard2::picard2::picard2::picard2:

There is a distant relationship. The Australian Aboriginal languages, as well as the Amerindian languages, as well as the Altaic languages are all agglutinative languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutination)!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutination#Eurasia


Eurasia


<tbody>
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg)
This section does not cite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources) any references or sources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability). Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Introduction_to_referencing/1). Unsourced material may be challenged and removed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Burden_of_evidence). <small>(October 2014)</small>


</tbody>
Examples of agglutinative languages include the Uralic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages), such as Finnish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language), Estonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_language), and Hungarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_language). These have highly agglutinated expressions in daily usage, and most words are bisyllabic or longer. Grammatical information expressed by adpositions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adposition) in Western Indo-European languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_language) is typically found in suffixes.

Hungarian uses extensive agglutination in almost all and any part of it. The suffixes follow each other in special order, and can be heaped in extreme amount, resulting words conveying complex meanings in very compact form. An example is fiaiéi where the root "fi-" means "son", the subsequent four vowels are all separate suffixes, and the whole word means "[properties] of his/her sons". The nested possessive structure and expression of plurals is quite remarkable (note that Hungarian uses no genders).

Almost all Austronesian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austronesian_languages), such as Malay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_language), and most Philippine languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_languages), also belong to this category, thus enabling them to form new words from simple base forms. The Indonesian and Malay word mempertanggungjawabkan is formed by adding active-voice, causative and transitive affixes to the compound verb tanggung jawab, which means "to account for". In Tagalog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagalog_language) (and its standardised register, Filipino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipino_language)), nakakapágpabagabag ("that which is upsetting/disturbing") is formed from the root bagabag ("upsetting" or "disquieting").

Japanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_language) is also an agglutinating language, adding information such as negation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negation_%28rhetoric%29), passive voice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice), past tense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_tense), honorific (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorific) degree and causality in the verb form. Common examples would be hatarakaseraretara (働かせられたら), which combines causative, passive or potential, and conditional conjugations to arrive at two meanings depending on context "if (subject) had been made to work..." and "if (subject) could make (object) work", and tabetakunakatta (食べたくなかった), which combines desire, negation, and past tense conjugations to mean "(subject) did not want to eat".

Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language) is another agglutinating language: the expression Çekoslovakyalılaştıramadıklarımızdanmışçasına is pronounced as one word in Turkish, but it can be translated into English as "as if you were one of those whom we could not make resemble the Czechoslovakian people."

All Dravidian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_languages), including Kannada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kannada), Telugu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telugu_language), Malayalam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayalam) and Tamil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_language), are agglutinative. Agglutination is used to very high degrees both in formal written forms in Telugu.

Agglutination is also a common feature of Basque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_language). The conjugations of verbs, for example, are done by adding different prefixes or suffixes to the root of the verb: dakartzat, which means 'I bring them', is formed by da (indicates present tense), kar (root of the verb ekarri → bring), tza (indicates plural) and t (indicates subject, in this case, "I"). Another example would be the declination: Etxean = "In the house" where etxe = house.

Americas

Agglutination is used very heavily in most Native American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas) languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language), such as the Inuit languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_languages), Nahuatl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahuatl), Quechua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quechua_languages), Tz'utujil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tz%27utujil_language), Kaqchikel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaqchikel_language), Cha'palaachi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cha%27palaachi) and K'iche (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%27iche%27_language), where one word can contain enough morphemes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morpheme) to convey the meaning of what would be a complex sentence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_%28linguistics%29) in other languages. Conversely, Navajo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_language) contains affixes for some uses, but overlays them in such unpredictable and inseparable ways that it is often referred to as a fusional language.


Somewhere between the Indo-European languages and the "Nostratic" languages there is a link: The Agglutinative languages (or rather, the most of them) which are based upon the C, N and other haplogroups, while the IndoEuropean languages are based upon the R haplogroup!
Isn't it obvious???



http://hanisyria.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/haplogroup-c.jpg

___________________

Artek, Artek, Artek, now I see your level of knowledge.

[Petros Houhoulis]

with a "Nostratic like " origin of P* and K* in general I could agree. Since Q, R, N O etc all share a common origin as "Eurasian" lineages.

But 16000 years of Turkic origin? Man use common sense.

There is no such a thing as "Nostratic languages". Uralic, Indo-European, Altaic and other langauges share aerial features, but in the end:

The R haplogroup originates speaking a synthetic language

The C and N haplogroups (and perhaps many others in-between) originate speaking an agglutinative language.

...And that's all folks!

[Pahli]

There is no such a thing as "Nostratic languages". Uralic, Indo-European, Altaic and other langauges share aerial features, but in the end:

The R haplogroup originates speaking a synthetic language

The C and N haplogroups (and perhaps many others in-between) originate speaking an agglutinative language.

...And that's all folks!

Why do you even bother discussing with these people? It has been proven that Scythians and Sarmatians are of Iranian origin and spoke an Iranic language. They have nothing to do with Turks.

I'll give you Turks a short one: Turks originated from West Mongolia and China. They invaded Central Asia after the Scythians and Sarmatians migrated to Europe. And shortly after the Huns came.

[Proto-Shaman]

edit. delete

[zarzian]

Most basal R1b' have been found exclusively in West Asia especificaly western Iran near the Armenian highlands, although if I remember correctly, there was a descent study that found a deeper clade in Nepal, either way nothing to do with Turks.

[Pahli]

Most basal R1b' have been found exclusively in West Asia especificaly western Iran near the Armenian highlands, although if I remember correctly, there was a descent study that found a deeper clade in Nepal, either way nothing to do with Turks.

But you have to wage a war just to make them understand so.

[Proto-Shaman]

Hope dies last I guess... But Nostratic would not help the Altaic cause, and it is not the rising sun. The Sun language theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Language_Theory) has already set in the mud of the Islamic mythology (not to mention shit!!!)
What do dogs have in common with a sun language? :crazy: is that a kind of Petros style argumentation?


The source is Herodotus. Read AGAIN:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages#Herodotus.27_Scythian_etymologi es
One of the sources of the Scythian languages is Herodotus, that's right. But the interpretations you are presenting are mostly pseudo-linguistic attempts of modern scholars.


It seems that Klyosov is a self-promoting raskal. Any reasonable person would have deducted this conclusion by now. Are his works peer-reviewed? Or are they complete bullcrap like he is?
Yes, many of his works are peer-reviewed. Just because you don't like him this doesn't mean you can bash him aside. Dna doesn't lie.


Eurocentrism/Aryanism/Racism died as a result of WWII. Get used to it!

Read:

"... the first IE specialists – imbued with European colonialism of the 19th century - chose to see the Proto-Indo-Europeans as a superior race of warriors and colonizers, who would have conquered the allegedly "pre-IE" Neolithic Europe in the Copper Age, and brought their 'superior' civilization to it. (...). At the same time, while the concept of the Arian super-race gave shape to the myth of the Battle-Axe horse-riding invaders, another myth, within the Arian larger myth, emerged: Pangermanism. Within the Arian superior race, the German father-founders of IE studies saw the Germanic people as the supermen, the purest and the closest to the original blessed race, and chose the Germanic area as the Urheimat of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. After WW2, with the end of Nazi ideology, a new variant of the traditional scenario (i.e. scenario "imbued with European colonialism of the 19th century"), which soon became the new canonic IE theory, was introduced by Marija Gimbutas, an ardent Baltic nationalist: the PIE Battle-Axe super-warriors were best represented by Baltic élites, instead of Germanic ones (Gimbutas 1970, 1973, 1977, 1979, 1980). Interestingly, also the central idea of the NDT, namely that the inventors of farming were the Indo-Europeans, rather than the 'real' Middle-Eastern, Sumerian and/or Semitic, people, is yet another vein of this often unwitting ethnocentrism that runs through the history of research on IE origins."

source: http://www.continuitas.org/intro.html


the entire Indo-European family is based upon the haplogroup R. The folks in Sardinia are also predominantly I2, but their language is also predominantly Indo-European. Why don't they speak a language deriving from the I haplogroup instead of the Indo-European language which relates to the R haplogroup?
Again,

1. R in central Asia is Turkic:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54347&d=1421279665

2. R in North America is Amerindian:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54348&d=1421279665

3. Albania, Greece, Italy and Iran, all "IE's", but not predominantly R:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54349&d=1421279665

4. Basque R is not IE.


The Altaic speakers used to belong to the C haplogroup, but converted huge masses of the R haplogroup in the long term. There is no other explanation!
Then "Altaics" forgot to build a time machine to convert the last Australian Aboriginals into Altaics :bored:


I am not interested in the Amerindian R1b. This is further proof that R people switched to a non-IndoEuropean language, since the Amerindian R people do not speak Indo-European... Yet they are the majority of Amerindians in NorthEast Canada!
Ok let's fix: "R people switched to a non-IndoEuropean language, since the Amerindian R people do not speak Indo-European" :rotfl::rotfl:


We are not debating genetics. We are debating linguistics, and we use genetics as one of the few tools available...
I was just saying that Amerindian R is ancient and not from colonial times.


Nobody denies that the trunk of the Turkic speaking people are R today. What is denied is the notion that those R haplogroup people were Altaic speaking in the past, especially before the Turkish domination over them!
Fine but genetics says "fuck off" to linguistics. Do you understand?


It is more than a probability. I am creating my own version of Nostratic I guess, just as you make yours!
Sorry, but Turkic (central Asian, Siberian) R1b lines are the most ancient. And R1b in Asia is almost only common among Turkics, not IE's. Ancient Time machine? :scratch:


Demhat disagrees that the most ancient R1b haplotypes are Turkic, and in any way it is irrelevant, since they could have been Turkicized over many thousand years... Like so many people, including the modern Turks!
Dna can't lie for a start. There is no basis for a Turkification of R1b lineages in Asia. Scholarship is shrouded in silence concerning this, sorry.


My problem is that we are looking for the ORIGINAL SPEAKERS OF ALTAIC, not the modern speakers of Altaic who have switched to an Altaic language after a conquest...
Original Altaics did never existed and a language shifting never happened. Best proof are R1b-M73 and R1a-Z93.


The Basque language is related to some of the remaining 10% of the genes, which is actually a further proof of my theory, because in the same token, even if 90% of the Altaic speakers were either R1a or R1b, this would not be proof that the Altaic language originates in either haplogroup, just as the Basque language does not originate in the R1b haplogoup!!!
BTW, you and Klyosov should coordinate each other and decide whether Altaic presumably originates from R1a (as he hallucinates) or from a subclade of R1b [R1b-M73] (as you hallucinate) because you are getting more ridiculous by the hour!!!
Petros Houhoulis, fortunately your hardcore absurd theory doesn't even exist xD


Most proponents of Altaic continue to support the inclusion of Korean and Japanese.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages#cite_note-China_2008-5)
This is correct. And what was your point? Petros, you still didn't improved your English! :thumbs up


Exactly: People used to think that Japanese and Korean were not part of Altaic prior to the 1960's, but this view is COLLAPSED TODAY. GET USED TO IT!!!

Let's fix:

"Another view accepts Altaic as a valid family but includes in it only Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic. This view was widespread prior to the 1960s, but has almost no supporters among specialists today.[4]"

Japanese? a..n..d Korean? wtf? :picard2: Petros learn English please, I have better things to do!


I quote wikipedia. Maybe you should read the same passage a million times until you understand it!
Yes, pleeease show me that Micro-Altaic a...n...d Macro-Altaic are equally accepted language families. Don't forget to look into Petros Houhoulis guidebook xD


You can't prove that,
The best proof is that Turkic R1b line are the oldest :bored:


and you can't prove why Altaic speakers in Korea and Japan have no R1b lineage. Your fable is crumbling!!!
because Altaic doesn't exist and R1b is a 18,500 years old Eurasian haplogroup.


It would still be irrelevant, because you can't possibly know what language the ancestor of any of those Turks spoke! Them speaking Turkish today is as much relevant as the Turks of Turkey speaking Turkish today!!!
Let's fix: Turks don't even exist... :thumbs up

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54350&d=1421281799


That is exactly the problem: Even if the relation between all Altaic languages is aerial, the "aerial mix" would not have taken place without a genetic mix as well (since there was no religion like Judaism to apply rigid enforcment of blood relations) and the conclusion is that all of the Altaic languages begun with the C haplogroup, which is shared by all of them! It doesn't matter how common the C haplogroup is in ANY population. The Hungarians have as little as 0.5% of the N haplogroup, and yet they speak an Uralic language shared by other people whose common link is the N haplogroup as well!
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
...

You see, a 0.5% of all the Hungarians assimilated the other 99.5% into the Hungarian language in the long term!
The rest of the N haplogroup in Europe south of Estonia and Finland were absorbed by the Indo-European peoples!
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-N.gif
Altaic languages? 53,000 years ago? :suspicious:


There is a distant relationship. The Australian Aboriginal languages, as well as the Amerindian languages, as well as the Altaic languages are all agglutinative languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutination)!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutination#Eurasia
Hungarian is another cherry picked topic. Anyway:

Habsburg Propaganda about Hungarian Language and History (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?145023-Habsburg-Propaganda-about-Hungarian-Language-and-History)

The pseudo-scientific status of the Finno-Ugric theory (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?144989-The-pseudo-scientific-status-of-the-Finno-Ugric-theory)

The Myth of the Uralic language family (Hungarian reconsidered) (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?144484-The-Myth-of-the-Uralic-language-family-(Hungarian-reconsidered))


Somewhere between the Indo-European languages and the "Nostratic" languages there is a link: The Agglutinative languages (or rather, the most of them) which are based upon the C, N and other haplogroups, while the IndoEuropean languages are based upon the R haplogroup!
Isn't it obvious???
no: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language


There is no such a thing as "Nostratic languages". Uralic, Indo-European, Altaic and other langauges share aerial features, but in the end:
Uralic, IE, and Altaic don't exist. Proponents of these dogmas are just old bones splitters. They will belong to the long forgotten past in the next 100 years. The only solution is a Nostratic-like model.


The R haplogroup originates speaking a synthetic language
To bad that synthetic languages also include Turkic and Amerindian :picard2:

• 1. Synthetic
•• 1.1. Polysynthetic
•• 1.2. Fusional
•• 1.3. Agglutinative
•• 1.4. Oligosynthetic


The C and N haplogroups (and perhaps many others in-between) originate speaking an agglutinative language.

...And that's all folks!
To bad that Na-Dené languages are mostly polysynthetic and less agglutinative. And to bad that Armenian, Bantu, Dravidian, Kartvelian, Berber, Persian languages are agglutinative :picard2:

[Demhat]

R1b* (that is R1b with no subsequent distinguishing SNP mutations) is extremely rare. The only population yet recorded with a definite significant proportion of R1b* are the Kurds of southeastern Kazakhstan with 13%.[7] However, more recently, a large study of Y-chromosome variation in Iran, revealed R1b* as high as 4.3% among Persian sub-populations.[19]

R1b m343 (basal R1b) has it's highest frequency around West Iran/Eastern Kurdistan + Azeris and North Mesopotamia/Central and South Kurdistan.

High frequency of R1b is ok but it doesn't tell much about the origin. Armenians are 30% R1b but almost exclusively from the Balkan L23 variant. Turkmens are heavy in R1b too but almost exclusively m73

[Proto-Shaman]

Some of haplotypes, however, from seperate branches, the most remarkable branch is most remote from the trunk, hence, the most ancient, (...) contains 12 haplotypes which all belong to R1b1a1-M73 and R1b-M343 subclades, and provided by Uighurs and the close tribes of the Naxi, Han and Tu (Zhong et al., 2010). All the 12 haplotypes are derived from the base haplotype 13 24 15 11/10 X X X 12 X 14/13 12 30, and contain collectively 65 mutations from it. Using the “linear” formula, we obtain 65/12/.013 = 417 → 619 conditional generations (the arrow here is a correction for back mutations), or 15,475 ± 2500 years from their common ancestor (the calculation is explained in the Materials and Methods section). This date is in a fair agreement with 16,000 ± 1400 years from a common ancestor of R1b haplotypes (Klyo- sov, 2008a, 2009d) (...) . It also indicates that the R1b haplogroup arose in Central Asia, and, apparently, in the Altay region in South Siberia, where their upstream haplogroups NOP → NO + P; P → R + Q; R → R1 + R2; R1 → R1a + R1b all migrated and lived there during the time period between 52 and 20-15 thousand years before present (Klyosov & Rozhanskii, 2012b).
http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=19567

[Petros Houhoulis]

What do dogs have in common with a sun language? is that a kind of Petros style argumentation?
You are trying the same shit twice... You never learn!

One of the sources of the Scythian languages is Herodotus, that's right. But the interpretations you are presenting are mostly pseudo-linguistic attempts of modern scholars.
If that was true then scholars of Altaic would have interpreted Herodotus' Scythian words as Altaic words, which is NOT THE CASE. Perhaps you should grow a brain and try to reason why the surviving Scythian words don't fit into any modern Altaic language...

Yes, many of his works are peer-reviewed. Just because you don't like him this doesn't mean you can bash him aside. Dna doesn't lie.
DNA doesn't lie, but you are trying to prove that an x people did never change their language over the millenia, which is a false assumption.

Read:

"... the first IE specialists – imbued with European colonialism of the 19th century - chose to see the Proto-Indo-Europeans as a superior race of warriors and colonizers, who would have conquered the allegedly "pre-IE" Neolithic Europe in the Copper Age, and brought their 'superior' civilization to it. (...). At the same time, while the concept of the Arian super-race gave shape to the myth of the Battle-Axe horse-riding invaders, another myth, within the Arian larger myth, emerged: Pangermanism. Within the Arian superior race, the German father-founders of IE studies saw the Germanic people as the supermen, the purest and the closest to the original blessed race, and chose the Germanic area as the Urheimat of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. After WW2, with the end of Nazi ideology, a new variant of the traditional scenario (i.e. scenario "imbued with European colonialism of the 19th century"), which soon became the new canonic IE theory, was introduced by Marija Gimbutas, an ardent Baltic nationalist: the PIE Battle-Axe super-warriors were best represented by Baltic élites, instead of Germanic ones (Gimbutas 1970, 1973, 1977, 1979, 1980). Interestingly, also the central idea of the NDT, namely that the inventors of farming were the Indo-Europeans, rather than the 'real' Middle-Eastern, Sumerian and/or Semitic, people, is yet another vein of this often unwitting ethnocentrism that runs through the history of research on IE origins."

source: http://www.continuitas.org/intro.html

You quote Alinei, who nobody takes seriously, and you confuse a few things: the new IndoEuropean theory by Gimbutas is divorced from the development of agriculture, and everybody know it. In fact, Alineis' theory is basically rubbish:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory


The Paleolithic Continuity Theory (or PCT, Italian La teoria della continuità), since 2010 relabelled as a "paradigm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm)", as in Paleolithic Continuity Paradigm or PCP), is a hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis) suggesting that the Proto-Indo-European language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) (PIE) can be traced back to the Upper Paleolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Paleolithic), several millennia earlier than the Chalcolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcolithic) or at the most Neolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) estimates in other scenarios of Proto-Indo-European origins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_origins).
As advanced by Mario Alinei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Alinei) in his Origini delle Lingue d’Europa (Origins of the Languages of Europe), published in two volumes in 1996 and 2000,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory#cite_note-1) the PCT posits that the advent of Indo-European languages should be linked to the arrival of Homo sapiens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_Homo_sapiens) in Europe and Asia from Africa in the Upper Paleolithic. Employing "lexical periodization", Alinei arrives at a timeline deeper than even that of Colin Renfrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Renfrew)'s Anatolian hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hypothesis).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory#cite_note-2)
Since 2004, an informal workgroup of scholars who support the Paleolithic Continuity Theory has been held online.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory#cite_note-3) Members of the group (referred to as "Scientific Committee" in the website) include linguists Xaverio Ballester (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xaverio_Ballester) (University of Valencia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Valencia)) and Francesco Benozzo (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Francesco_Benozzo&action=edit&redlink=1) (University of Bologna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Bologna)), prehistorian Marcel Otte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Otte) (Université de Liège (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universit%C3%A9_de_Li%C3%A8ge)) and anthropologist Henry Harpending (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Harpending) (University of Utah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Utah)).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory#cite_note-continuitas-4)
The Paleolithic Continuity Theory is distinctly a minority view as it enjoys very little academic support, serious discussion being limited to a small circle of scholars. It is not listed by Mallory among the proposals for the origins of the Indo-European languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_Urheimat_hypotheses) that are widely discussed and considered credible within academia.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory#cite_note-5)



Alinei is no better goon than Klyosov, and nobody takes any of them seriously!



Again,

1. R in central Asia is Turkic:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54347&d=1421279665

The question is not what it is today, but what it was several thousands of years ago. We are looking for the sources of languages, not the current speakers of any language.


2. R in North America is Amerindian:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54348&d=1421279665

The question is not what it is today, but what it was several thousands of years ago. We are looking for the sources of languages, not the current speakers of any language.


3. Albania, Greece, Italy and Iran, all "IE's", but not predominantly R:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54349&d=1421279665

If they are not predominantly R, then why are they Indo-European? Can you explain that? This is exactly where your theory fails: There are people today who speak a language that was not spoken thousand of years ago by their ancestors in their location, and this applies equally to South Balkaners (E3b) North Balkaners (I2a) South Italians and Turks (J2) and so on. Why shouldn't the same apply to the Turkic people of Central Asia? Are they immune to invasions and changes of language???


4. Basque R is not IE.

R is synthetic, and Basque R would still be a synthetic language.


Then "Altaics" forgot to build a time machine to convert the last Australian Aboriginals into Altaics

All of the C haplogroup speakers have originated as speakers of an agglutinative language, the split into Altaic/Amerindian/Aboriginal took place later.

Ok let's fix: "R people switched to a non-IndoEuropean language, since the Amerindian R people do not speak Indo-European"

This is what I said:

I am not interested in the Amerindian R1b. This is further proof that R people switched to a non-synthetic language, since the most of the Amerindian people do not speak a synthetic language... Yet the R haplogroup is in the majority of the Amerindians in NorthEast Canada! Only the Navajo, Nahuatl, Mohawk, Quechua and a few other Amerindian languages - in most probability - copied the synthetic language spoken by their R haplogroup ancestors.
Not what you claim!

I was just saying that Amerindian R is ancient and not from colonial times.
Irrelevant. People can change their language at any time.

Fine but genetics says "fuck off" to linguistics. Do you understand?
Genetics gives us a more complex image of the world. It doesn't say "fuck off" to linguistics. It is impossible to correlate modern haplogroups with modern languages (this is where you are screwing it) but we can try to detect which haplogroup gave rise to which language family in the past (which is what I am doing!)

Sorry, but Turkic (central Asian, Siberian) R1b lines are the most ancient. And R1b in Asia is almost only common among Turkics, not IE's. Ancient Time machine?
No time machine, even if what you say is correct, people can be conquered and change their language at any time. You can't prove that Turkish was spoken anywhere more than 13 centuries ago. What makes you believe that the people speaking Turkish today must have always speaking Turkish?

Dna can't lie for a start. There is no basis for a Turkification of R1b lineages in Asia. Scholarship is shrouded in silence concerning this, sorry.
If science is silent, then how do you prove a non-Turkification, especially in light of the fact that non-Turkic people as far as in modern Turkey were Turkified during the last 10 centuries? How can you prove that R1b was Turkish 10.000 years ago when you cannot prove that it was Turkish 1.000 years ago? Do you know what happened during the last 10.000 years?

Original Altaics did never existed and a language shifting never happened. Best proof are R1b-M73 and R1a-Z93.
You cannot prove or disprove the existence of a language family based upon genetics alone? You need to study linguistics in order to prove language theories? What you suggest is outrightly INSANE!

Petros Houhoulis, fortunately your hardcore absurd theory doesn't even exist
Basque is not related to any language in Europe today! It could be a remnant of the haplogroup I, G, J, E or even Q, all of those haplogroups scoring 0.5 or more, since the haplogroup N scores 0.5 in Hungary, and Hungary is an Uralic language, and all of the Uralic speakers outside Hungary have even more significant traces of N.

This is correct. And what was your point? Petros, you still didn't improved your English! :thumbs up
Korean and Japanese are part of Altaic. If you believe that Altaic doesn't exist, that is your problem. How could Korean and Japanese be part of an inexistent linguistic family?

Let's fix:

"Another view accepts Altaic as a valid family but includes in it only Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic. This view was widespread prior to the 1960s, but has almost no supporters among specialists today.[4]"
Yes, because Japanese and Korean are also part of the group now!

Japanese? a..n..d Korean? wtf? Petros learn English please, I have better things to do!
Japanese AND Korean are part of the Altaic language family today. Get used to it!

Yes, pleeease show me that Micro-Altaic a...n...d Macro-Altaic are equally accepted language families. Don't forget to look into Petros Houhoulis guidebook xD

Most proponents of Altaic continue to support the inclusion of Korean and Japanese.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages#cite_note-China_2008-5)


Micro-Altaic is a subset of Macro-Altaic today. Do you know set theory?

A is Micro-Altaic, and B is Macro-Altaic:

http://dj1hlxw0wr920.cloudfront.net/userfiles/wyzfiles/70f35df2-1821-40f7-bdfc-233a1a75d1b1.gif


The best proof is that Turkic R1b line are the oldest
It's not a proof. Older lineages are not less susceptible to subjugation and change of language than newer lineages. Stop having that weird fetish with older lineages!
If an older lineage of Amerindians were conquered by the Yankees and forced to speak English, while a newer lineage of Amerindians fled and manage to maintain its' language, what would that prove?

because Altaic doesn't exist and R1b is a 18,500 years old Eurasian haplogroup.
Altaic exists, either you like it or not. It is very fragmented because it has few samples which are as much widespread as IndoEuropean in the old world - but IndoEuropean has by far more languages, by far more written accounts of its' existence and more evidence to draw upon in general. Whether R1b is 18,500 old Eurasian haplogroup or 50,000 old Eurasian haplogroup is irrelevant. What is relevant is that R gave rise to synthetic langauges, while C gave rise to agglutinative languages - including the Americas and Australia!

Let's fix: Turks don't even exist...
Turks exist too, just as the Altaic language exists. Don't destroy everything.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54350&d=1421281799
Altaic languages? 53,000 years ago?
C gave rise to the most of the agglutinative languages that still exist today.


Hungarian is another cherry picked topic. Anyway:

Habsburg Propaganda about Hungarian Language and History (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?145023-Habsburg-Propaganda-about-Hungarian-Language-and-History)

You can masturbate all you like, but Sumerian is basically related to Dravidian, not to and Uralic or Altaic languages. It is also agglutinative though! The word "Ur" (town, city, settlement) still exists in most dravidian languages! Hungarian has no relation with the Neolithic farmers for sure, neither genetic not linguistic! All of the Uralic languages are spoken near the North pole, no other language is centered further from a potential cradle of agriculture than the Uralic languages!!!



The pseudo-scientific status of the Finno-Ugric theory (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?144989-The-pseudo-scientific-status-of-the-Finno-Ugric-theory)

This link is in the bottom of the wikipedia page about the Uralic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages#.22Rebel.22_Uralists), under the title "Rebel Uralists", and lists a mere 4 scientists who dispute the Uralic language family. The beginning of the page leaves no question though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages


The Uralic languages / (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)j (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ʊ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ˈ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)r (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)æ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)l (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ɨ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)k (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English) (sometimes called Uralian / (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English)j (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ʊ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ˈ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)r (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)eɪ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)l (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)i (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)ə (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)n (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English#Key)/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English) languages) constitute a language family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_family) of some 38[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages#cite_note-2) languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language) spoken by approximately 25 million people. The Uralic languages with the most native speakers are Hungarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_language), Finnish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language), and Estonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_language), which are official languages of Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary), Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland), and Estonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia), respectively, and of the European Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union). Other Uralic languages with significant numbers of speakers are Erzya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzya_language), Moksha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moksha_language), Mari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_language), Udmurt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udmurt_language), and Komi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komi_language), which are officially recognized languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Russia) in various regions of Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia).
The name "Uralic" derives from the fact that areas where the languages are spoken spread on both sides of the Ural Mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural_Mountains). Also, the original homeland (Urheimat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urheimat)) is commonly hypothesized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Uralic_homeland_hypotheses) to lie in the vicinity of the Urals.
Finno-Ugric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_languages) is sometimes used as a synonym for Uralic, though Finno-Ugric is widely understood to exclude the Samoyedic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samoyedic_languages).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages#cite_note-3)


In fact there are more question marks about the Altaic langauges than the Uralic languages. The Uralic language family is accepted by the vast majority of scholars, whether you like it or not!



The Myth of the Uralic language family (Hungarian reconsidered) (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?144484-The-Myth-of-the-Uralic-language-family-(Hungarian-reconsidered))

Kunnap is an IDIOT! Look at what he claims:


Geneticists look at Finno-Ugrians as pure Europoids (Caucasoids) and Samoyeds as pure Mongoloids. Geneticists are strictly asking for our help. They say: we have a lot of genetic data but no idea how to work with these data. Give us such ideas, theories, hypotheses and we will check them. Geneticists cannot work with their databanks without concrete aims – databanks are so large that they overload the computers: the capacity of computers ends. Uralists must help them.


Even a 5 year old kid can see the relation between the haplogroup N and the Uralic languages. Take a look morons:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Fenno-Ugrian_people.png

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-N.gif

Furthermore:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#Theories_of_the_origins_of_ethnic_Finns


A hugely controversial theory is so-called refugia. This was proposed in the 1990s by Kalevi Wiik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevi_Wiik), a professor emeritus of phonetics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonetics) at the University of Turku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Turku). According to this theory, Finno-Ugric speakers spread north as the Ice age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age) ended. They populated central and northern Europe, while Basque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque) speakers populated western Europe. As agriculture spread from the south-east into Europe, the Indo-European languages spread among the hunter-gatherers. In this process, both the hunter-gatherers speaking Finno-Ugric and those speaking Basque learned how to cultivate land and became Indo-Europeanized. According to Wiik, this is how the Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages), Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages), Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages), and Baltic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_languages) were formed. The linguistic ancestors of modern Finns did not switch their language due to their isolated location.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#cite_note-42) The main supporters of Wiik's theory are Professor Ago Künnap (Univ. of Tartu), Professor Kyösti Julku (Univ. of Oulu) and Associate Professor Angela Marcantonio (Univ. of Rome). Wiik has not presented his theories in peer-reviewed scientific publications. Many scholars in Finno-Ugrian studies have strongly criticized the theory. Especially Professor Raimo Anttila, Petri Kallio and brothers Ante and Aslak Aikio have renounced Wiik's theory with strong words, hinting strongly to pseudoscience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience) and even at right-wing political biases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias) among Wiik's supporters.[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#cite_note-Aikio-41)[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#cite_note-43) Moreover, some dismissed the entire idea of refugia, due to the existence even today of arctic and subarctic peoples. The most heated debate took place in the Finnish journal Kaltio during autumn 2002. Since then, the debate has calmed, each side retaining their positions.[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#cite_note-44) While the refugium theory proved unpopular among Finns, substantial genotype analyses across the greater European genetic landscape have mostly confirmed the Last Glacial Maximum refugiums to be correct and have substantial backing of the greater scientific community.[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#cite_note-45)[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#cite_note-46)[47] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#cite_note-47)[48] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#cite_note-48)[49] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#cite_note-49) But this does not in anyway corroborate or prove that these 'refugia' spoke Uralic/Finnic, as it belies wholly independent variables that are not necessarily coeval (i.e. language spreads and genetic expansions can occur independetly, at different times and in different directions).
In other words, the theories of Wiik and Kunnap are nationalistic and not part of mainstream academia...


no: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language
Uralic, IE, and Altaic don't exist. Proponents of these dogmas are just old bones splitters. They will belong to the long forgotten past in the next 100 years. The only solution is a Nostratic-like model.
Yeah, I've heard a lot of bullcrap, all of which comes from nationalist idiots. Greek nationalists dispute the IndoEuropean language family as well, and they are just ending up ridiculing themselves. Man, stop the rabble and grow up. Uralic, Indo-European and Altaic language families are here to stay. As for Nostratic:

It is not a mainstream theory:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages#Status_within_comparative_ling uistics


While the Nostratic hypothesis is not endorsed by the mainstream of comparative linguistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_linguistics), Nostratic studies by nature of being based on the comparative method remain within the mainstream of contemporary linguistics from a methodological point of view; it is the scope with which the comparative method is applied rather than the methodology itself that raises eyebrows.
Nostraticists tend to refuse to include in their schema language families for which no proto-language has yet been reconstructed. This approach was criticized by Joseph Greenberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Greenberg) on the ground that genetic classification is necessarily prior to linguistic reconstruction[63] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages#cite_note-63) but this criticism has so far had no effect on Nostraticist theory and practice.
Certain critiques have pointed out that the data from individual, established language families that is cited in Nostratic comparisons often involves a high degree of errors; Campbell (1998) demonstrates this for Uralic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages) data. Defenders of the Nostratic theory argue that were this to be true, it would remain that in classifying languages genetically, positives count for vastly more than negatives (Ruhlen 1994). The reason for this is that, above a certain threshold, resemblances in sound/meaning correspondences are highly improbable mathematically.
The technique of comparing grammatical structures (as opposed to words) has suggested to some[who? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions)] that the Nostratic candidates lack interrelatedness. However, Pedersen's original Nostratic proposal synthesized earlier macrofamilies, some of which, including Indo-Uralic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Uralic_languages), involved extensive comparison of inflections.[64] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages#cite_note-64) It is true the Russian Nostraticists and Bomhard initially emphasized lexical comparisons. Bomhard recognized the necessity to explore morphological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphology_%28linguistics%29) comparisons and has since published extensive work in this area (see especially Bomhard 2008:1.273–386). According to him the breakthrough came with the publication of the first volume of Joseph Greenberg's Eurasiatic work,[65] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages#cite_note-65) which provided a massive list of possible morphemic correspondences that has proved fruitful to explore.[66] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages#cite_note-66) Other important contributions on Nostratic morphology have been published by John C. Kerns[67] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages#cite_note-67) and Vladimir Dybo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Dybo).[68] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages#cite_note-68)
Critics argue that were one to collect all the words from the various known Indo-European languages and dialects which have at least one of any 4 meanings, one could easily form a list that would cover any conceivable combination of two consonants and a vowel (of which there are only about 20*20*5=2000). Nostraticists respond that they do not compare isolated lexical items but reconstructed proto-languages. To include a word for a proto-language it must be found in a number of languages and the forms must be relatable by regular sound changes. In addition, many languages have restrictions on root structure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_root), reducing the number of possible root-forms far below its mathematical maximum. These languages include, among others, Indo-European, Uralic, and Altaic—all the core languages of the Nostratic hypothesis. To understand how the root structures of one language relate to those of another has long been a focus of Nostratic studies.[69] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages#cite_note-69) For a highly critical assessment of the work of the Moscow School, especially the work of Illich-Svitych, cf. Campbell and Poser 2008:243-264.

It has also been argued that Nostratic comparisons mistake Wanderwörter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderwort) and cross-borrowings between branches for true cognates.[70] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages#cite_note-70)


They can't compare existing languages, but FICTIONAL reconstructed Proto-languages, and if a proto-language does not exist (how could you create a proto-language for Basque? It is a language isolate!) they just can't fit in the picture!!!

Furthermore, even Nostratic CANNOT wipe out the existing language families:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Nostratic_tree.svg/330px-Nostratic_tree.svg.png
Please, stop masturbating! Nostratic shall never go as far as you dream of it. The Uralic, IndoEuropean and Altaic language families are here to stay... And the Computers won't crash from the data fed to them, trust me!



To bad that synthetic languages also include Turkic and Amerindian :picard2:

• 1. Synthetic
•• 1.1. Polysynthetic
•• 1.2. Fusional
•• 1.3. Agglutinative
•• 1.4. Oligosynthetic

Proto-Indo-European (haplogroup R) is is Fusional Synthetic, while Turkic, Aboriginal and Amerindian (haplogroup C) are agglutinative synthetic.

To bad that Na-Dené languages are mostly polysynthetic and less agglutinative.
Some Amerindians have R haplogroup as well. They kept SOME of their original language. The 90% of the C haplogroup still speaks agglutinative, while the 90% of the R haplogroup still speaks fusional. Some languages are shitfing over time due to the influence of their neighbors, like Estonian:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusional_language


A fusional language is a type of synthetic language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_language), distinguished from agglutinative languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language) by their tendency to overlay many morphemes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morpheme) to denote grammatical, syntactic, or semantic change.

Examples of fusional Indo-European languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages) are: Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit), Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) (classical and modern), Latvian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_language), Pashto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashto_language), Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language), German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language), Icelandic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_language), Serbo-Croatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian_language), Czech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_language), French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language), Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language), Albanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language), Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin), Punjabi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_language), and the Iberian Romance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Romance_languages) dialect continuum. Another notable group of fusional languages is the Semitic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages) group. A high degree of fusion is also found in many Sami languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_languages), such as Skolt Sami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skolt_Sami).[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] Unusually for a natively North American language, Navajo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_language) is sometimes described as fusional due to its complex and inseparable verb morphology.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusional_language#cite_note-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusional_language#cite_note-2)

An illustration of fusionality is the Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language) word bonus ("good"). The ending -us denotes masculine gender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_gender), nominative case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_case), and singular number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_number). Changing any one of these features requires replacing the suffix -us with a different one. In the form bonum, the ending -um denotes masculine accusative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusative_case) singular, neuter accusative singular, or neuter nominative singular.


History


Fusional languages generally tend to lose their inflection over the centuries—some languages much more quickly than others.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusional_language#cite_note-unfolding-3) While Proto-Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) was fusional, some of its descendants have shifted to a more analytic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic_language) structure, such as Modern English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_English) and Afrikaans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaans), or agglutinative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language), such as Persian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language) and Armenian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language). Other descendants are fusional, including Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit), Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin), Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_language), Lithuanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_language), and Slavic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages).

Some languages shift over time from agglutinative to fusional. For example, while most Uralic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_language) are predominantly agglutinative, Estonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_language) is markedly evolving in the direction of a fusional language. On the other hand, Finnish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language), its close relative, exhibits fewer fusional traits, thereby keeping closer to the mainstream Uralic type.



And to bad that Armenian, Bantu, Dravidian, Kartvelian, Berber, Persian languages are agglutinative :picard2:

Armenian is fusional (see above)
Bantu is not related to either European or Asian Haplogroups or languages. It is IRRELEVANT to the subject.
Dravidian is agglutinative, but not directly related to the Uralic or Altaic language families. It might be distantly related though. Dravidian genetics have nothing to do with either Turkic or IndoEuropeans, but the possibility of an IndoEuropean invasion splitting the Uralic and Altaic people from the Dravidians cannot be ruled out.
Kartvelian is in the Caucasus which is a small kaleidoscope of dozens of different languages and linguistic families. You can't use Caucasian languages for any conclusion, because they are so close and yet so different from each other. Kartvelian might be agglutinative because of a relation with older farmting languages of Mesopotamia (Sumerian) or because of later influences by the Altaic languages, or because it is a link between Uralic/Altaic and Sumerian, or for entirely different reasons which elude us so far.
Berber is part of the Afro-Asiatic language family, no direct relation to Uralic, Altaic or IndoEuropean genetics or languages. Possible distant relation with Basque or perhaps even Sumerian though.
Persian is THE ONLY IRANIAN LANGUAGE which is agglutinative:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language

Some assert that Persian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language) is the only Iranian language which is agglutinative[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language#cite_note-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language#cite_note-4)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language#cite_note-5)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language#cite_note-6)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language#cite_note-7)
Which means that Persian probably was fusional like the other Iranian (and by extent, Indo-European) languages, and at some point, probably because of the influence of Sumerian and other old Mesopotamian agglutinative languages, turned agglutinative, just as Estonian which borders Indo-European languages today shifts from agglutinative to fusional!

Nothing unusual really! Languages change all of the time...

[Proto-Shaman]

You are trying the same shit twice... You never learn!
So, please tell me what do dogs have in common with a sun language?


If that was true then scholars of Altaic would have interpreted Herodotus' Scythian words as Altaic words, which is NOT THE CASE.
Which was the case. And which is still the case. Aaah Petros, you don't even know the ABC of Scythology, be happy I am still answering to your ignorance.


Perhaps you should grow a brain and try to reason why the surviving Scythian words don't fit into any modern Altaic language...
Almost all of them do.


DNA doesn't lie, but you are trying to prove that an x people did never change their language over the millenia, which is a false assumption.
You are claiming mass conversion. Thats hypocritical eurocentrism.


You quote Alinei, who nobody takes seriously, and you confuse a few things: the new IndoEuropean theory by Gimbutas is divorced from the development of agriculture, and everybody know it. In fact, Alineis' theory is basically rubbish:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory

Alinei is no better goon than Klyosov, and nobody takes any of them seriously!
Wrong, I just cited European facts which are published by the PCT workgroup. Swallow please.


The question is not what it is today, but what it was several thousands of years ago. We are looking for the sources of languages, not the current speakers of any language.
A mass conversion is a hypocritical eurocentric scenario. R is the bulk of Turkics. Q is substratum in Turkics. N is parental to Turkics. C is also substratum in Turkics.


The question is not what it is today, but what it was several thousands of years ago. We are looking for the sources of languages, not the current speakers of any language.
Indo-Europeans did not travelled to America :picard2:


If they are not predominantly R, then why are they Indo-European? Can you explain that? This is exactly where your theory fails: There are people today who speak a language that was not spoken thousand of years ago by their ancestors in their location, and this applies equally to South Balkaners (E3b) North Balkaners (I2a) South Italians and Turks (J2) and so on. Why shouldn't the same apply to the Turkic people of Central Asia? Are they immune to invasions and changes of language???
PETROS !!! MULTIPLE HAPLOGROUP ORIGINS !!!! haplogroups do not correlate with languages !!!


R is synthetic, and Basque R would still be a synthetic language.
Basque = NON-Indo-European.


All of the C haplogroup speakers have originated as speakers of an agglutinative language, the split into Altaic/Amerindian/Aboriginal took place later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflection#Inflection_in_various_languages

"... a stage which language must necessarily pass through before reaching the higher inflectional or Aryan stage, for, as Professor Müller observes, 'we cannot resist the conclusion that what is now inflectional was formerly agglutinative'." (Hodder M. Westropp, Handbook of Egyptian, Greek, Etruscan and Roman Archeology, Kessinger Publishing, 2003, p.483)


Irrelevant. People can change their language at any time.
Why are you denying a genetic fact that Amerindian R is ancient and not from colonial times? I mean do you have brain cells?


Genetics gives us a more complex image of the world. It doesn't say "fuck off" to linguistics. It is impossible to correlate modern haplogroups with modern languages (this is where you are screwing it) but we can try to detect which haplogroup gave rise to which language family in the past (which is what I am doing!)
Your hypocritical viewpoint is not in the scientific position to claim "Mal'ta boy".


No time machine, even if what you say is correct, people can be conquered and change their language at any time. You can't prove that Turkish was spoken anywhere more than 13 centuries ago. What makes you believe that the people speaking Turkish today must have always speaking Turkish?
Swallow the map and be quite:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54339&d=1421234018


If science is silent, then how do you prove a non-Turkification, especially in light of the fact that non-Turkic people as far as in modern Turkey were Turkified during the last 10 centuries? How can you prove that R1b was Turkish 10.000 years ago when you cannot prove that it was Turkish 1.000 years ago? Do you know what happened during the last 10.000 years?
I don't have to disprove a non-Turkification, since a Turkification theory doesn't even exist.


Do you know what happened during the last 10.000 years?
Yes, I know even what happened in the last 16.000 years. Should I show you what happened?


You cannot prove or disprove the existence of a language family based upon genetics alone? You need to study linguistics in order to prove language theories? What you suggest is outrightly INSANE!
Keep calm, Altaic is just a hypothesis.


Basque is not related to any language in Europe today! It could be a remnant of the haplogroup I, G, J, E or even Q, all of those haplogroups scoring 0.5 or more, since the haplogroup N scores 0.5 in Hungary, and Hungary is an Uralic language, and all of the Uralic speakers outside Hungary have even more significant traces of N.

:picard2::picard2::picard2::picard2:

1. Basque = NON-Indo-European

2. Recent Developments in Uralistics:

“It is obvious that not only the Ugric taxon should be reconsidered. It looks that recent developments in Uralistics are creating a sort of a crisis of a scientific paradigm in the field of Uralistics. One can notice the main features of this crisis, which were or are the same as in the other Sciences or Humanities. These features are well described by T. S. Kuhn in his book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" as the crisis of the old scientific paradigm and the creation of the new scientific theories (Kun, 1977: 96 - 109). Kuhn is quite correct to stress that the old scientific paradigm never goes away peacefully. Usually, the scholars strongly and negatively react to new theories and to those scholars who introduce new theories. Kuhn points out that what the scholars never do is to rush to the support of the new theory (Kun, 1977: 110 - 119). We can see the similar negative reaction of the majority of the specialists in Uralistics to the new theories of Ago Kuennap, Angela Marcantonio, Wiik Kalevi and others, who reject the old scientific paradigm in Uralistics. … It is easy to explain psychologically why the old scientific paradigms are more stable and why many scholars would rather cling to false (but old) paradigm than switch over to the true (but new and unknown) one. It is quite cosy to remain in the embrace of the old and known paradigm. One can always close his or her eyes to its inconsistencies and drawbacks. Many Uralic linguists got used to the old classification, which they first studied as students. They do not want to think about it twice, since they usually work on some other linguistic problems which do not concern the classification of languages. Usually, many linguists do not want to disturb "sleeping dogs". They do not believe that this or that linguistic classification must be checked again and again. Fortunately, in Uralistics there are some other linguists who think that with growing linguistic knowledge the old linguistic classifications should be verified. That is, every new linguistic fact should be used to verify the old linguistic classifications. If more and more new linguistic facts are discovered that contradict the old classification, it has to be reconsidered on the basis of the new level of linguistic knowledge. The linguists with modern linguistic thinking argue that the old linguistics classifications must be verified and checked again and again, and reconsidered if necessary, again and again. However, in Uralistics, as well as in linguistics in general, old classifications are not reconsidered after an abundance of new linguistic facts has been received. One must bear in mind a simple idea: what was good and logical several centuries ago, i.e., at the old level of development of linguistics, may be neither good nor logical at a more advanced development of linguistics, of course, if we want to call this "science". Any linguist must understand the difference between a linguistic fact, which may remain true, though discovered several centuries ago, and a linguistic theory, which can be altered or rejected when abundant new linguistic facts are discovered.”

http://english.fullerton.edu/publications/cln/clnarchives/2009winter/Tamb-Ugric.pdf


Korean and Japanese are part of Altaic. If you believe that Altaic doesn't exist, that is your problem. How could Korean and Japanese be part of an inexistent linguistic family?
Altaic is just a hypothesis without acceptance. Ainu is also included. Whereas IE is a hypothesis with a wide acceptance.


Yes, because Japanese and Korean are also part of the group now!

Japanese AND Korean are part of the Altaic language family today. Get used to it!

Most proponents of Altaic continue to support the inclusion of Korean and Japanese.[5]

Micro-Altaic is a subset of Macro-Altaic today. Do you know set theory?

A is Micro-Altaic, and B is Macro-Altaic:

http://dj1hlxw0wr920.cloudfront.net/userfiles/wyzfiles/70f35df2-1821-40f7-bdfc-233a1a75d1b1.gif
No Petros, please learn English! Everybody will give you the same answer: Altaic is not an accepted language family.


It's not a proof. Older lineages are not less susceptible to subjugation and change of language than newer lineages. Stop having that weird fetish with older lineages!
If an older lineage of Amerindians were conquered by the Yankees and forced to speak English, while a newer lineage of Amerindians fled and manage to maintain its' language, what would that prove?Altaic exists, either you like it or not. It is very fragmented because it has few samples which are as much widespread as IndoEuropean in the old world - but IndoEuropean has by far more languages, by far more written accounts of its' existence and more evidence to draw upon in general. Whether R1b is 18,500 old Eurasian haplogroup or 50,000 old Eurasian haplogroup is irrelevant. What is relevant is that R gave rise to synthetic langauges, while C gave rise to agglutinative languages - including the Americas and Australia!
You are obsessed, nothing else Petros, you have no sense for reality but live in a IE fantasy world.


Turks exist too, just as the Altaic language exists. Don't destroy everything.
Prove :bored:


C gave rise to the most of the agglutinative languages that still exist today.
1. Aboriginal Australian languages are not agglutinative.
2. Examples of agglutinative languages include:

• Algonquian languages, namely Cree and Blackfoot
• Japanese language
• Koreanic languages
• Mongolic languages
• Tungusic languages
• Turkic languages
• Armenian language
• Athabaskan languages
• Austronesian languages[citation needed]
• Bantu languages (see Ganda)
• Dravidian languages, most prominent of which are Tamil, Kannada, Telugu, Malayalam and Tulu
• Eskimo–Aleut languages, namely Aleut, Inuktitut, and Yupik
• Igboid languages
• Kartvelian languages
• some Mesoamerican and native North American languages including Nahuatl, Huastec, and Salish
• Muskogean languages
• Northeast and Northwest Caucasian languages
• Berber languages
• Some assert that Persian language is the only Iranian language which is agglutinative[3][4][5][6][7]
• many Uralic languages, namely Hungarian, Finnish and Sami languages
• Siouan languages, namely Lakota and Yuchi
• many Tibeto-Burman languages
• Quechua languages and Aymara
• Vasconic languages namely Basque, and the extinct Aquitanian

Many languages spoken by Ancient Near East peoples were agglutinative:

• Gutian
• Elamite
• Hattic
• Hurrian
• Kassite
• Lullubi
• Sumerian
• Urartian

Agglutination is a typological feature and does not imply a linguistic relation, but there are some families of agglutinative languages. For example, the Proto-Uralic language, the ancestor of Uralic languages, was agglutinative, and most descended languages inherit this feature. But since agglutination can arise in languages that previously had a non-agglutinative typology and it can be lost in languages that previously were agglutinative, agglutination as a typological trait cannot be used as evidence of genetic relationship to other agglutinative languages. The uncertain theory about Ural-Altaic proffers that there is a genetic relationship with this proto-language. As seen at Finnish and as seen at Mongolian and Turkish.[8] And they have historical borders with Sumerian too.[9]
___________

Where is haplogroup C in all of these folks unifying them? :picard2:


You can masturbate all you like, but Sumerian is basically related to Dravidian, not to and Uralic or Altaic languages. It is also agglutinative though! The word "Ur" (town, city, settlement) still exists in most dravidian languages! Hungarian has no relation with the Neolithic farmers for sure, neither genetic not linguistic! All of the Uralic languages are spoken near the North pole, no other language is centered further from a potential cradle of agriculture than the Uralic languages!!!
That's why Dravidians (HAPLOGROUP R2!!!) once were grouped within Turanian languages together with Uralic, Altaic, many Siberian languages and many more! :picard2:


This link is in the bottom of the wikipedia page about the Uralic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages#.22Rebel.22_Uralists), under the title "Rebel Uralists", and lists a mere 4 scientists who dispute the Uralic language family. The beginning of the page leaves no question though:

The Uralic languages /jʊˈrælɨk/ (sometimes called Uralian /jʊˈreɪliən/ languages) constitute a language family of some 38[2] languages spoken by approximately 25 million people. The Uralic languages with the most native speakers are Hungarian, Finnish, and Estonian, which are official languages of Hungary, Finland, and Estonia, respectively, and of the European Union. Other Uralic languages with significant numbers of speakers are Erzya, Moksha, Mari, Udmurt, and Komi, which are officially recognized languages in various regions of Russia.
The name "Uralic" derives from the fact that areas where the languages are spoken spread on both sides of the Ural Mountains. Also, the original homeland (Urheimat) is commonly hypothesized to lie in the vicinity of the Urals.
Finno-Ugric is sometimes used as a synonym for Uralic, though Finno-Ugric is widely understood to exclude the Samoyedic languages.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages


In fact there are more question marks about the Altaic langauges than the Uralic languages.
Investigation revealed that Uralic language taxon (MV= 28.31%, MTMB= 0.57) is more disperced than the Samoyedic (MV= 18.29%, MTMB= 0.16) or Finno-Ugric (MV= 24.14%, MTMB= 0.47) family. It shows that Uralic taxon is not natural, but rather artificial, i.e. created by linguists.


The Uralic language family is accepted by the vast majority of scholars, whether you like it or not!

More recently, the conventional framework of Uralic studies has been challenged from two points of view. On the one hand, the so-called Roots Group, led by Kalevi Wiik (e.g. 2004) and anticipated by János Pusztay (1996), has proposed that the Uralic comparative corpus, or at least a considerable part of it, should be explained as the result of areal convergence, rather than genetic divergence. If this were the case, there would have been no single coherent Proto-Uralic language, but, rather, two or more regional proto languages and centres of expansion. In this context, Proto-Uralic has also been described as having been formed as a regional lingua franca (for a critical review of the issue, cf., e.g., Jaakko Häkkinen 2006). On the other hand, it has been claimed, notably by Angela Marcantonio (2002), that the entire Uralic comparative corpus is simply not valid and thus requires neither a divergence nor a convergence explanation. According to this view, the conventional Uralic comparisons and reconstructions are statistically unlikely to be true. This would be especially so since the comparative corpus shared by Finno-Ugric and Samoyedic is very small, comprising hardly more than 200 lexical items.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54373&d=1421452181

In fact, Ago Kuennap and Angela Marcantonio believe that it is high time to reconsider some of the language families. They consider it quite wrong to call the Uralic set of languages "a family", since their genetic relationship has not been properly proved (Marcantonio, 2002).


Even a 5 year old kid can see the relation between the haplogroup N and the Uralic languages. Take a look morons:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Fenno-Ugrian_people.png

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-N.gif

Cool story:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54374&d=1421453330

Yakut Saka Turks and Chukchis don't speak Uralic.


Furthermore:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#Theories_of_the_origins_of_ethnic_Finns

bla...bla...bla...

In other words, the theories of Wiik and Kunnap are nationalistic and not part of mainstream academia...

1. Nationalism is part of Indo-Germanism. Because the Finno-Ugric hypothesis is a function of Indo-Germanism, this theory collapsed along with the collapse of Indo-Germanism.
2. Do you believe mainstream 9/11 report?


Yeah, I've heard a lot of bullcrap, all of which comes from nationalist idiots. Greek nationalists dispute the IndoEuropean language family as well, and they are just ending up ridiculing themselves. Man, stop the rabble and grow up. Uralic, Indo-European and Altaic language families are here to stay. As for Nostratic:
Your personal opinion is not of interest.


They can't compare existing languages, but FICTIONAL reconstructed Proto-languages, and if a proto-language does not exist (how could you create a proto-language for Basque? It is a language isolate!) they just can't fit in the picture!!!

Furthermore, even Nostratic CANNOT wipe out the existing language families:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Nostratic_tree.svg/330px-Nostratic_tree.svg.png
Please, stop masturbating! Nostratic shall never go as far as you dream of it. The Uralic, IndoEuropean and Altaic language families are here to stay... And the Computers won't crash from the data fed to them, trust me!
Trust me, old thinkers are out, new thinkers are in. Take a look at Mandelbrot, previously called dreamer, now common mathematics.


Proto-Indo-European (haplogroup R) is is Fusional Synthetic, while Turkic, Aboriginal and Amerindian (haplogroup C) are agglutinative synthetic.

1. No paper exists claiming haplogroup R as IE.
2. Dravidians and Turkics have agglutinative languages.
3. Aboriginal Australians are not even related.
4. Amerindian is R + C


Armenian is fusional (see above)
No Petros, Armenian is agglutinative (see your own quotation :picard2:)


It is IRRELEVANT to the subject.
Like most of your masturbation.


Bantu is not related to either European or Asian Haplogroups or languages.

Dravidian is agglutinative, but not directly related to the Uralic or Altaic language families. It might be distantly related though. Dravidian genetics have nothing to do with either Turkic or IndoEuropeans,

Kartvelian is in the Caucasus which is a small kaleidoscope of dozens of different languages and linguistic families. You can't use Caucasian languages for any conclusion, because they are so close and yet so different from each other. Kartvelian might be agglutinative because of a relation with older farmting languages of Mesopotamia (Sumerian) or because of later influences by the Altaic languages, or because it is a link between Uralic/Altaic and Sumerian, or for entirely different reasons which elude us so far.

Berber is part of the Afro-Asiatic language family, no direct relation to Uralic, Altaic or IndoEuropean genetics or languages. Possible distant relation with Basque or perhaps even Sumerian though.
Persian is THE ONLY IRANIAN LANGUAGE which is agglutinative:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language

Some assert that Persian language is the only Iranian language which is agglutinative[3][4][5][6][7]


Which means that Persian probably was fusional like the other Iranian (and by extent, Indo-European) languages, and at some point, probably because of the influence of Sumerian and other old Mesopotamian agglutinative languages, turned agglutinative, just as Estonian which borders Indo-European languages today shifts from agglutinative to fusional!

Nothing unusual really! Languages change all of the time...
Still waiting for haplogroup C !!

[Kamal900]

-----


Can i ask you something real quick; why are you so obsessed in taking iranic culture and heritage away from the iranian peoples in central, south and west asia? Iranians played a HUGE role in shaping your people's culture and etc, and Turkic peoples were greatly influenced by the iranian peoples that they once lived close to like the Scythians, Parthians, Persians and etc. Hell, even the Mughuls who are descended from the mongols are a persianite turkic people who are very persianized in their culture, language and etc. Turanism, like Afrocentrism and other ethnocentric ideologies, is nothing but a racist sham built on the idea of Turanic supremacism. If you want to be a proud turk then i have no objections, but please, dont steal the civilizations and heritages from other peoples.

[Proto-Shaman]

---------
Sorry, I don't buy it.

[Kamal900]

Sorry, I don't buy it.

What do you mean by that statement even, do you think its some kind of trick or something? As i said, leave the iranic and other people's cultures and heritages alone, and just take pride in your own heritage and accomplishments more.

[Pahli]

Sorry, I don't buy it.

We achieved a lot more than warware and killing like you did. And now you're stealing history haha. Its pretty well documented who is who, but I guess you're fed up with your pro-mongolism / pro-turkism.

Turks all originated from West Mongolia and Western China, they had nothing to do with Central Asia untill around 2200 years ago.

[Proto-Shaman]

What do you mean by that statement even, do you think its some kind of trick or something? As i said, leave the iranic and other people's cultures and heritages alone, and just take pride in your own heritage and accomplishments more.
I don't want do own Iran.

[Demhat]

Ottomans and Seljuks were not only war like people but they took elements of other cultures, which made their own relatively advanced. I also don't see why some people feel the need to take pride in other peoples heritage.

I mean even without trying to take away the Iranic groups heritages. There are still signficant/important groups such as the Ottomans, Seljuks, Ghaznavids, Cumans, Khazar, Göktürks as example, in which they can take pride.

[Pahli]

Ottomans and Seljuks were not only war like people but their culture was relatively advanced. I also don't see why some people feel the need to take pride in other peoples heritage.

I mean even without trying to take away the Iranic groups heritages. There are still the Ottomans, Seljuks, Timurids, Cumans, Khazar, Göktürks as example in which they can take pride.

Thats because they want to be linked with Europeans, and they can't do this without claiming some of our heritage as their.

[Kamal900]

I don't want do own Iran.

When i said iranian peoples i meant by iranic peoples like Pashtuns, Pamiris, Yaghnobi, Tajiks, Lurs, Ossetians and etc. I know many Balochi people in Oman, and i dont like it when people like you try to demonize them by staling their ancestral heritage away from them(Baloch are a north-west iranian people who make up around 27 percent of the Omani population). Besides, isn't kemalism based on europeanism and demonization everything middle easterner?

[Proto-Shaman]

Ottomans and Seljuks were not only war like people but they took elements of other cultures, which made their own relatively advanced. I also don't see why some people feel the need to take pride in other peoples heritage.

I mean even without trying to take away the Iranic groups heritages. There are still signficant/important groups such as the Ottomans, Seljuks, Timurids, Cumans, Khazar, Göktürks in which they can take pride.
According to the official story even Cumans must be of Iranic orign.

[Proto-Shaman]

When i said iranian peoples i meant by iranic peoples like Pashtuns, Pamiris, Yaghnobi, Tajiks, Lurs, Ossetians and etc. I know many Balochi people in Oman, and i dont like it when people like you try to demonize them by staling their ancestral heritage away from them(Baloch are a north-west iranian people who make up around 27 percent of the Omani population). Besides, isn't kemalism based on europeanism and demonization everything middle easterner?
I am not interested in stealing Iranian elements. I am also not interested in Kemalism.

[Pahli]

According to the official story even Cumans must be of Iranic orign.

Cumans are as what I know, of Turkic origin.

[Proto-Shaman]

Cumans are as what I know, of Turkic origin.
Turkic origin, yes and no, but genealogical data tend more to a Saka origin, which is, according to the current mainstream, Iranian.

[Demhat]

Thats because they want to be linked with Europeans, and they can't do this without claiming some of our heritage as their.

Cumans and Khazars were pretty much connected to Europe, also Ottomans expanded into Europe.

[Demhat]

Turkic origin, yes and no, but genealogical data tend more to a Saka origin, which is, according to the current mainstream, Iranian.

As already wrote, Turanian people in general are a mixture of Iranic and Altaic groups, in terms of Cumans it was Massagaeta or Scythians with just some Altaic elements. Cumans were probably allot more Scythian than Mongol like based on DNA.

You have to realize without an Iranic elements, there is no Turkic people. early Iranic element is what makes Turkic tribes what they are and sets them apart from Mongols.

[Proto-Shaman]

As already wrote, Turanian people in general are a mixture of Iranic and Altaic groups, in terms of Cumans it was Massagaeta or Scythians with just some Altaic elements. Cumans were probably allot more Scythian than Mongol like based on DNA.

You have to realize without an Iranic elements, there is no Turkic people. early Iranic element is what makes Turkic tribes what they are and sets them apart from Mongols.

Just like it is an proto Mesopotamian/Southwest Iranian element( Elamites) what makes Persians what they are, a Southwest Iranic group.
Do you understand now why I don't buy the Scytho-Irano hypothesis as the only truth?

[Demhat]

Do you understand now why I don't buy the Scytho-Irano hypothesis as the only truth?

No I don't because it doesn't need the Scythians beeing Turkic just so that the Scythians play a role in the appearance of Turkic tribes. Proto_Indo Europeans and their language is also the result of proto agricultural people merging with H&G. Without these two elements Proto Indo European wouldn't exist. But saying any of these two elements is Indo European is incorrect like saying your father or mother is also the same person as you. Just because you came to existence out of the merge of your mother's and father's dna that doesn't make any of your parents to the same person like you.

[Demhat]

Another example.

Just like it is an proto Mesopotamian/Southwest Iranian element( Elamites) what makes Persians what they are. Without this Elamite element (Even the traditional Persian long robe is adopted from Elamites) Persians wouldn't exist. But does that make Elamites, Persians?

[Proto-Shaman]

Another example.

Just like it is an proto Mesopotamian/Southwest Iranian element( Elamites) what makes Persians what they are. Without this Elamite element (Even the traditional Persian long robe is adopted from Elamites) Persians wouldn't exist. But does that make Elamites, Persians?
So you would consider this man as mixture of Iranian and Mongol?

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54419&d=1421604524

___

If modern day Iranians are more Elamite than IE, why Iranians speak an IE language?

[Demhat]

So you would consider this man as mixture of Iranian and Mongol?

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54419&d=1421604524

___


Not clear from that one sculpture, genetics is also very important when it comes to West and East Eurasian division. However lookwise he is more Caucasoid looking but with East Eurasian mixture. He looks archaic for an Eurasian anyways.


If modern day Iranians are more Elamite than IE, why Iranians speak an IE language?


Who wrote modern Persians are more Elamite than Proto Iranic? You are sometimes taking my statements out of context. I worte any group of Indo European people mixed with the local groups and created their own identity. Scandinavians are Proto_Germanic in connection with pre Indo European Nordic tribes.

Persians evolved out of Proto Indo_iranians merging with Elamites. This Elamite element might be around ~40% but it was significant in the forming of Persians and since the Persians speak an Indo Iranian language, they are regarded as Indo European. if some modern Turkic groups would have spoken the language of their Iranic ancestors instead the language of their Altaic, we would now call them Indo_Iranians with varying Altaic admixture. But they speak Turkic which in itself is Altaic but has heavy Iranic elements, therefore it is something new which evolved out of two other elements.

[Pahli]

The Iranic people were widely spread around 500 BC:

54420

[Artek]

The Iranic people were widely spread around 500 BC:
Yuezhe(Kushans) ?

That's a figure from relevant period, depicting Yuezhi
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/rogday_rosomaha/25180123/121477/121477_600.jpg

[Shah-Jehan]

The Iranic people were widely spread around 500 BC:

54420

that map is false. But, yes Iranic people were very widespread during that time.

[Proto-Shaman]

Not clear from that one sculpture, genetics is also very important when it comes to West and East Eurasian division. However lookwise he is more Caucasoid looking but with East Eurasian mixture. He looks archaic for an Eurasian anyways.
Maybe bad example. This was actually the reconstruction of Kennewick man, a standard native American by DNA, but looks very Eurasian.


Who wrote modern Persians are more Elamite than Proto Iranic? You are sometimes taking my statements out of context. I worte any group of Indo European people mixed with the local groups and created their own identity. Scandinavians are Proto_Germanic in connection with pre Indo European Nordic tribes.

Persians evolved out of Proto Indo_iranians merging with Elamites. This Elamite element might be around ~40% but it was significant in the forming of Persians and since the Persians speak an Indo Iranian language, they are regarded as Indo European. if some modern Turkic groups would have spoken the language of their Iranic ancestors instead the language of their Altaic, we would now call them Indo_Iranians with varying Altaic admixture. But they speak Turkic which in itself is Altaic but has heavy Iranic elements, therefore it is something new which evolved out of two other elements.
The first part of your statement makes very much sense. Some posts before you wrote that without Iranic elements, there is no Turkic people, and that early Iranic element is what makes Turkic tribes what they are and sets them apart from Mongols. Do you have any anthropology or aDNA data backing up this suggestion? Maybe some genealogical data or any other?

[Demhat]

Maybe bad example. This was actually the reconstruction of Kennewick man, a standard native American by DNA, but looks very Eurasian.


The first part of your statement makes very much sense. Some posts before you wrote that without Iranic elements, there is no Turkic people, and that early Iranic element is what makes Turkic tribes what they are and sets them apart from Mongols. Do you have any anthropology or aDNA data backing up this suggestion? Maybe some genealogical data or any other?

I have been in contact with established linguists and linguistic studying people for long time and what I hear dfrom all of them is, the Iranic element in Turkic languages is so strong, so heavy that there are even some grammatical charecteristics which are typical iranic rather than Altaic, and if some element in a language is so strong that it already reached the grammer, this must be very strong part o the ancestry.

Additional to that, if an "foreign" element is found in all modern people of the same group, this elements must be a substantial part of their ethnogesis.

The Iranic element is not just present in some Turkic groups while absent in other, it is a substantial part in all Turkic groups, which speaks for this beeing a founding element among the emerging of Turkic tribes.
Or is there any Turkic group which does not show Iranic, ethno_cultural and at least some genetic signature? I don't know of any.


Than in the Turkic tongues there are strong Iranic charecteristics, which can't simply be explained with loans, but as part of the first proto Turks. For example there are linguists who are pretty convinced that words like "Aksham" for night are actually East Iranic derived.

The word for I, "ben" which is substantial part of the Turkish language derives from a proto form "men" which in itself is definitely Iranic and derives from the root "men" which originally means "me" and became "I" in some Iranic tongues such as Persian which lost the Casus Obliquus. Than there is the "me" put on words in form of denial. Which is also typical Middle iranic grammatically. I can give example from some Kurdish dialects, were "me" is used as denial. "mece" , what means don't go, Turkish gitme "don't go". Middle Persian and I think modern Persian does also have this characteristic.

There are far more examples. This is why I say Iranic is substantial part of the Turkic ethnogenesis, and without an Iranic element Turkic wouldn't be existing as it is. And thats the case for Proto Turkic which is basically something in between Iranic and Mongolian.

[Pennywise]

Maybe bad example. This was actually the reconstruction of Kennewick man, a standard native American by DNA, but looks very Eurasian.


The first part of your statement makes very much sense. Some posts before you wrote that without Iranic elements, there is no Turkic people, and that early Iranic element is what makes Turkic tribes what they are and sets them apart from Mongols. Do you have any anthropology or aDNA data backing up this suggestion? Maybe some genealogical data or any other?

you're giving too much credits to these retards. let them alone.

[Demhat]

you're giving too much credits to these retards. let them alone.

Look who arrived. My "neutral " (lol) Balkan dönme. Butthurt is it part of your hobby to skip throw topics and thumb down people?

[Proto-Shaman]

you're giving too much credits to these retards. let them alone.
Never mind, but I like to exchange our point of view. Only by this way we can understand each other better.

[Pennywise]

Never mind, but I like to exchange our point of view. Only by this way we can understand each other better.

well then, good luck with understanding schizophrenic trolls.

[Proto-Shaman]

I have been in contact with established linguists and linguistic studying people for long time and what I hear dfrom all of them is, the Iranic element in Turkic languages is so strong, so heavy that there are even some grammatical charecteristics which are typical iranic rather than Altaic, and if some element in a language is so strong that it already reached the grammer, this must be very strong part o the ancestry.

Additional to that, if an "foreign" element is found in all modern people of the same group, this elements must be a substantial part of their ethnogesis.

The Iranic element is not just present in some Turkic groups while absent in other, it is a substantial part in all Turkic groups, which speaks for this beeing a founding element among the emerging of Turkic tribes.
Or is there any Turkic group which does not show Iranic, ethno_cultural and at least some genetic signature? I don't know of any.


Than in the Turkic tongues there are strong Iranic charecteristics, which can't simply be explained with loans, but as part of the first proto Turks. For example there are linguists who are pretty convinced that words like "Aksham" for night are actually East Iranic derived.

The word for I, "ben" which is substantial part of the Turkish language derives from a proto form "men" which in itself is definitely Iranic and derives from the root "men" which originally means "me" and became "I" in some Iranic tongues such as Persian which lost the Casus Obliquus. Than there is the "me" put on words in form of denial. Which is also typical Middle iranic grammatically. I can give example from some Kurdish dialects, were "me" is used as denial. "mece" , what means don't go, Turkish gitme "don't go". Middle Persian and I think modern Persian does also have this characteristic.

There are far more examples. This is why I say Iranic is substantial part of the Turkic ethnogenesis, and without an Iranic element Turkic wouldn't be existing as it is. And thats the case for Proto Turkic which is basically something in between Iranic and Mongolian.
You mentioned some good aspects, and I can only agree with your subjective impression, but other people like me have this impression the other way around. I have left this subjective way of observing for a long time, I am more concentrated in a objective (Nostratic or Borean) way which in many cases explains similarities between distantly related languages.

1. Did you ever asked yourself why two 1st person pronouns exist for the same meaning: I & me? In Turkic we have öz and min/men/bin/ben. Kurdish has ez and min. German has ich and mein. Japanese has wáǸ, bànù, ánù. The pronouns me and we in most world languages have the same linguistic base root *mV (http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2feura%2fglobet&text_number=+403&root=config) ('I, we'). In Turkic the number "one" reads as bir, but it is also used with the meaning "mono, single, someone, person". Also compare Proto-Germanic '*wīz' ("we") and Proto-Turkic '*biz' ("we"). The root, doesn't matter if plural or singular, is always *ba, *be, *bi, *ma, *me, *mi etc. in all proto-forms around the globe.

Indo-European and its closest relatives. 1. Grammar. Joseph Harold Greenberg Stanford University Press, 2000. (https://books.google.de/books?id=z4ISPKGtl9YC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=proto-turkic+we+biz&source=bl&ots=EHnbbYwJBO&sig=iXKymSaM9G6Lpc3nWUw39W6sCg8&hl=de&sa=X&ei=65G9VLHeLMP9Uq3fgIAF&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=proto-turkic%20we%20biz&f=false)
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54457&d=1421710308

2. The negation suffix in Turkish has two forms: -ma and -me. In other Turkic languages like Kazakh it is -may and -mey. Japanese has a similar nagation suffix: -nai (archaic -mai). Compare tabemai ('not eat').

3. Also compare Turkic verbal suffix -mek/-mak and Germanic make/mach-. For more see: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?96353-Germanic-Turkic-linguistic-allegories

[Proto-Shaman]

The common 1st person pronoun among Uralics and Altaics btw:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/Fi-ugr-turk-comparison.png/420px-Fi-ugr-turk-comparison.png

[Proto-Shaman]

Ouh, and Petros, common sense in comparative linguistics is still that there is no need for typologically related languages to be also genetically related and vice versa. Proto-Indo-European including Nostratcic were agglutinative btw.

[Proto-Shaman]

Bump it!

The Scytho-Iranian hypothesis (http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/40_Language/Scytho-IranianTheoryWikipedia08032006.htm), taken literally, would predict some genetic continuity from the ancient Indo-Iranian Scythians to their modern Indo-Iranian descendents. But archeological and genetic studies performed up to date consistently fail this test[citation needed], and instead consistently point to Uralic-Altaic genetic make-up (Voevoda M.I. et al. "Reconstruction ..."), detested by Iranist proponents for its Mongoloid/Lapponoid component unbecoming for pure "Arian" Indo-Europeans.

[Pahli]

Not again ...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg

You know this is going to cause a huge flame war now ...

[Proto-Shaman]

Not again ...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg

You know this is going to cause a huge flame war now ...
Thats why I bumped it, thats why TA exists ;)