Brazil and Argentina vs Britain and U.S: Who Would Win?

[Murphy]

Discuss.

[Beorn]

Ooh! I detect a certain forum member having conflicting opinions over this one.

[Eldritch]

In what?

Curling? Ping pong? Chessboxing? Wife-carrying?

[Murphy]

In what?

Curling? Ping pong? Chessboxing? Wife-carrying?

In a section for war and military I think it's safe to assume what this topic is asking..

[Eldritch]

In a section for war and military I think it's safe to assume what this topic is asking..

Just checking.

[Guararapes]

Argentina is our client state as a proxy small state in our Big Federation. We are going to protect and help the Argentinians to reconquer the Malvinas. Today we can easily win a conventional war against the United Kingdom in the Southern Atlantic islands. In the next 20-50 years Brazil will be consolidated as one of the next Big World Powers and we are going to have 5-10 nuclear submarines, 3-5 modern aircraft carriers, 200-300 first generation fighters and about 50-100 (or more) nuclear warheads ICBMs, so we will wait our Chinese allieds to get back Taiwan to also get back the Malvinas to UNASUL-UNASUR, I hope in a peaceful negotiation process just like Hong Kong, but we will be prepared. The United States must get out of the Southern Hemisphere for their own sake. The Spaniards are annoyed because they have not yet retaken Gibraltar and they can act bravely again after centuries of inaction and misery. The United States would be worried if Brazil and China could support a Mexican insurgency in places like Arizona, Texas, California. We must help the weak Spanish speaking ones against the decadent English pirates. That's fair enough.

[Treffie]

Argentina is our client state as a proxy small state in our Big Federation. We are going to protect and help the Argentinians to reconquer the Malvinas.

Pfftt, lol :D

[Eldritch]

... so we will wait our Chinese allieds to get back Taiwan to also get back the Malvinas to UNASUL-UNASUR, I hope in a peaceful negotiation process just like Hong Kong, but we will be prepared.

...

The United States would be worried if Brazil and China could support a Mexican insurgency in places like Arizona, Texas, California...

I'd be interested in seeing you elaborate a bit further on this eventual Chinese-Brazilian alliance.

[RoyBatty]

Discuss.

Nothing to discuss, the answer is obvious.

[Guararapes]

First, the news:

China overtakes the US as Brazil's largest trading partner
China has become Brazil's most-important trading partner, disrupting a relationship between the United States and the Latin country that stretches back to the 1930s.

By Malcolm Moore in Shanghai
Published: 6:28PM BST 09 May 2009
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/5296515/China-overtakes-the-US-as-Brazils-largest-trading-partner.html

Second, the projects:

China needs food, agricultural commodities, meat, metals, oil and Brazil is one of the world top producers of all of them and is increasing the production of all raw materials. No Chinese agricultural subsidies like the broken European Union (Euro=Greece, tomorrow all the PIIGS) so the Brazilian agriculture and pecuary, the most competitive of the world, has found a big market.
China is a powerhouse of basic manufactured goods to a fast expanding Brazilian middle class. Brazil has some high technological enterprises of the Chinese interest, like Embraer airplanes, Petrobras chemicals, developed Brazilian banking services.
In military terms the BRIC countries are a Club of big underrepresented countries in the world politics wanting more participation. They can share military technologies as equal partners in several areas.
Brazil is the main branch and the only Heir of the Portuguese Empire, the first Empire to promote the world globalization and Brazil will be a bridge between the West and East, the North and South, between America, Europe, Africa and Asia.
Welcome to the 21st Century
Welcome to the Brave New World

[Eldritch]

First, the news:

China overtakes the US as Brazil's largest trading partner
China has become Brazil's most-important trading partner, disrupting a relationship between the United States and the Latin country that stretches back to the 1930s.

By Malcolm Moore in Shanghai
Published: 6:28PM BST 09 May 2009
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/5296515/China-overtakes-the-US-as-Brazils-largest-trading-partner.html



No offense, but that article seems to reflect the decline of the US and the rise of China more than anything else. Besides, a trade partnership does not a military alliance make.

[Austin]

In the next 20-50 years Brazil will be consolidated as one of the next Big World Powers.



Yes but in the next 20-50 years the U.S. will have developed even further as will UK. Latin America will always be 20-50 years behind. Much of what Latin America has military wise currently even is from the grace and benevolence of greater powers giving it to them technology wise through trade agreements. Latin America's military industrial complex is nowhere near as sophisticated as the U.S. or even Russian equivalents.

Also Mexico is a joke you have gotta be kidding...Mexico is internally undermined within their actual government by criminal cartels. Mexican army can't even trust its own leaders not to sell out which they often do unless their already working directly for the cartels to begin with which many are. Mexico is not a country it shouldn't even be considered it is a narco- fascist state run by a small ruling elite. The main opposition candidate in the last Mexican election was funded by the cartels and Hugo Chavez. That should give you an idea of the actual capabilities of the Mexican military...

In my city here in Texas rich Mexican nationals, like the elite of the elite in Mexican business, are moving here in droves because of the violence and lost faith in the governments ability to protect them and their children. What does that say about a country when its upper class is running for the hills and buying new homes and new investments in another country because they are afraid if the police come to their house it will be to kidnap them for the cartels.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Easily the UK, especially if the US helps (which is unlikely, especially with Obama as President). The UK is a naval power with an advanced air force, and this would be a naval war.

[poiuytrewq0987]

One thing's for certain is that this will be a war completely naval. Meaning whoever wins the naval war will win the war unless the Brazilian and Argentinian forces manage to fortify the Falklands with hundreds of thousands of troops forcing a land invasion of the Falklands.

Britain's Navy has 3 carriers, 6 frigates, 17 destroyers and 12 submarines. Brazil's navy has 1 carrier, 9 frigates, 5 submarines, and 5 corvettes. However it's fair to assume that if Brazil became involved, so would the Argentine navy. The Argentinians would bolster Brazil's navy by adding 5 destroyers, 9 frigates and 2 submarines for available deployment.

The British may have some advantage in total number of carriers and other ships however they're deployed all over the world and it's highly unlikely that the British would bring in the full force of their navy and prepare for total war with Brazil and Argentina over an island (unless they want another Danzig). It's more likely that the BRARG navy will sink whatever ships that is still protecting the seas there and force the RAF base situated on the islands to surrender and occupation of the Falklands will mostly likely proceed.

Also it's lolable to assume that the US would get involved in such conflict. The US would care less if Britain lost more colonial possessions as long as the British manage to be good whores for the US in Afghanistan and serve American interests where else.

[Grumpy Cat]

Hmmm... Vietnam? Iraq?

The US doesn't have a good track record as of late.

[Cato]

U.S. = Global force projection.
U.K. = as above but to a lesser degree.
Brazil and Argentina = squat.

[poiuytrewq0987]

U.S. = Global force projection.
U.K. = as above but to a lesser degree.
Brazil and Argentina = squat.

That's right, the UK naval forces will be spread out all over the world meaning it'll be easier for Brazil and Argentina to capitalize on that and quickly defeat any British presence in the area and quickly fortify the Falklands with hundreds of thousands of troops making it nigh impossible to be taken back unless you prepare a D-Day-like operation.

[Cato]

That's right, the UK naval forces will be spread out all over the world meaning it'll be easier for Brazil and Argentina to capitalize on that and quickly defeat any British presence in the area and quickly fortify the Falklands with hundreds of thousands of troops making it nigh impossible to be taken back unless you prepare a D-Day-like operation.

I was thinking of air power myself.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I was thinking of air power myself.

Brazil has a well-equipped and modern air force. In fact their aircraft carrier can carry up to 40 aircraft which is the equivalent of 2 HMS Invincible class aircraft carriers which can only carry 20 aircraft per carrier.

[Guapo]

Brazil has a well-equipped and modern air force.

Don't forget Bulgaria.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Hmmm... Vietnam? Iraq?

The US doesn't have a good track record as of late.

Iraq, Afghanistan, etc are guerrilla wars, which the US struggled with because it has a military designed to fight conventional wars. When those countries attempted to fight in a conventional fashion, such as Saddam's tank armies, they were wiped out easily.

A war like this would be exactly the type the US army is designed to excel at, shooting down aircraft and sinking ships. The UK army uses similar equipment and design (originally designed to fight a USSR invasion of Europe).


That's right, the UK naval forces will be spread out all over the world meaning it'll be easier for Brazil and Argentina to capitalize on that and quickly defeat any British presence in the area and quickly fortify the Falklands with hundreds of thousands of troops making it nigh impossible to be taken back unless you prepare a D-Day-like operation.

Where are they going to get food and supplies from? The UK could just put a naval blockade around the place and wait for them to surrender.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Iraq, Afghanistan, etc are guerrilla wars, which the US struggled with because it has a military designed to fight conventional wars. When those countries attempted to fight in a conventional fashion, such as Saddam's tank armies, they were wiped out easily.

A war like this would be exactly the type the US army is designed to excel at, shooting down aircraft and sinking ships. The UK army uses similar equipment and design (originally designed to fight a USSR invasion of Europe).


lol you mean Saddam's obsolete tanks?



Where are they going to get food and supplies from? The UK could just put a naval blockade around the place and wait for them to surrender.

That's assuming if Britain manages to completely decimate BRARG's navy. Whatever happens, I believe it'd be wise to stockpile supply that would last them for years.

[Cato]

Here's my kind of airpower:

http://test.ecanadanow.com/Pentagon_nuclear_fuses_Taiwan.jpg

[Cato]

I'm sorry, I can't take these kinds of threads very seriously. It's basically a wankfest like the "Roman Empire versus Han Dynasty" or "Star Wars versus Star Trek".

[poiuytrewq0987]

Here's my kind of airpower:

http://test.ecanadanow.com/Pentagon_nuclear_fuses_Taiwan.jpg

Right, the US is sooo going to use nuclear weapons to help Britain preserve her colonial possessions.

BTW (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,693336,00.html)

[Cato]

Right, the US is sooo going to use nuclear weapons to help Britain preserve her colonial possessions.

BTW (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,693336,00.html)

Yup, 'cause I'm the boss who pushes the button down. :)

[Falkata]

Brazil could send their policemen, specially the BOPE, they have the most badass emblem ever :p

http://charlesgomes.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/bope.jpg

They have more experience in real combat than all the SAS and marines together :D

Rio de Janeiro, tropical paradise! Where the criminals shoot down police helicopters lol

UqpHlyMvBI0

[Psychonaut]

Anyone who thinks that there currently exists a nation that the US could not defeat, if it were to fully engage said nation in unrestricted (non-nuclear) warfare, is seeing the picture through retard-colored glasses.

[Wulfhere]

In the next 20-50 years Brazil will be consolidated as one of the next Big World Powers and we are going to have 5-10 nuclear submarines, 3-5 modern aircraft carriers, 200-300 first generation fighters and about 50-100 (or more) nuclear warheads ICBMs,

It's probably best if we nuke you now then.

[Austin]

All that really matters on the question of what would the U.S. do.....


U.S. Refineries* Operable Capacity

Rank COMPANY STATE SITE Barrels per Calendar Day
1 EXXONMOBIL REFINING & SUPPLY CO Texas BAYTOWN 572,500
2 EXXONMOBIL REFINING & SUPPLY CO Louisiana BATON ROUGE 503,000
3 BP PRODUCTS NORTH AMERICA INC Texas TEXAS CITY 455,790
4 CITGO PETROLEUM CORP Louisiana LAKE CHARLES 429,500
5 BP PRODUCTS NORTH AMERICA INC Indiana WHITING 405,000
6 EXXONMOBIL REFINING & SUPPLY CO Texas BEAUMONT 344,500
7 SUNOCO INC (R&M) Pennsylvania PHILADELPHIA 335,000
8 CHEVRON USA INC Mississippi PASCAGOULA 330,000
9 DEER PARK REFINING LTD PARTNERSHIP Texas DEER PARK 329,800
10 WRB REFINING LLC Illinois WOOD RIVER 306,000
11 Flint Hills Resources LP Texas CORPUS CHRISTI 288,468
12 PREMCOR REFINING GROUP INC Texas PORT ARTHUR 287,000
13 Motiva Enterprises LLC Texas PORT ARTHUR 285,000
14 Flint Hills Resources LP Minnesota SAINT PAUL 280,500
15 CHEVRON USA INC California EL SEGUNDO 279,000
16 HOUSTON REFINING LP Texas HOUSTON 270,600
17 BP West Coast Products LLC California LOS ANGELES 265,000
18 MARATHON PETROLEUM CO LLC Louisiana GARYVILLE 256,000
19 CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY Louisiana BELLE CHASSE 247,000
20 CONOCOPHILLIPS COMPANY Texas SWEENY 247,000

29 BP West Coast Products LLC Washington FERNDALE 225,000
56 BP-HUSKY REFINING LLC Ohio TOLEDO 125,600
127 BP EXPLORATION ALASKA INC Alaska PRUDHOE BAY 12,780

[Beorn]

No, my penis is the biggest. It has 12 fully operational inches in length, it has 4 very hardy inches in width, and can muster up a whole teaspoon each session with over a billion little 'wrigglers' dying to get all in yo face, bitches.

[Amapola]

The Spaniards are annoyed because they have not yet retaken Gibraltar and they can act bravely again after centuries of inaction and misery.

http://www.frikipedia.es/images/6/6d/Lol_wut.jpg

[SuuT]

My penis v. Dave Angel's penis.... Who would win?

[poiuytrewq0987]

My penis v. Dave Angel's penis.... Who would win?

Mandingo.

[Matritensis]

Brazil has a well-equipped and modern air force. In fact their aircraft carrier can carry up to 40 aircraft which is the equivalent of 2 HMS Invincible class aircraft carriers which can only carry 20 aircraft per carrier.


It's not only the tools.It's the workers too.Nobody in this planet would stand a chance against the US in a conventional war,is that so difficult to understand? About the UK,Brazilians have ZERO experience in combat,and the British army is very,very professional.

[poiuytrewq0987]

It's not only the tools.It's the workers too.Nobody in this planet would stand a chance against the US in a conventional war,is that so difficult to understand? About the UK,Brazilians have ZERO experience in combat,and the British army is very,very professional.

Have you ever been to Brazil before? Brazil's terrain is like Vietnam but 100 times worse.

[Cail]

Why does everyone assume that Brazil is going to stand up for Argentina? I'm not aware of any relations that warm between them.

[Wulfhere]

Why does everyone assume that Brazil is going to stand up for Argentina? I'm not aware of any relations that warm between them.

Indeed, it's not even as if Argentina and Brazil speak the same language. They speak debased and bastardised versions of Spanish and Portuguese, respectively.

[Cail]

Indeed, it's not even as if Argentina and Brazil speak the same language.
Good point, and even if they did - there have even been wars between LA countries speaking the same language (Spanish). It's not like they are too fond of each other.


They speak debased and bastardised versions of Spanish and Portuguese, respectively.
Brazilian Portuguese does indeed somewhat differ from Portuguese proper, but Argentinian Spanish is more or less the same as the original.

[antonio]

Have you ever been to Brazil before? Brazil's terrain is like Vietnam but 100 times worse.

So they would resist USA tunneling the jungle and living underground. I don't see it clear.

Seriously, and take it as a good example of the kind of power which rules the world today: did you realize that USA and UK know exactly what is going on in every fucking street of our planet (satellites). And if they dont like what people being spyed are doing, send them, for example, a unpiloted remotely manouvrable jet (from a terrain base, or in a foreseable future, from a a mother aircraft) to kill them all. Some days ago, an AlQaeda leader was treated this way.

No country would be able today of sustain a conventional war against USA. Not even Russia or China.

[Wulfhere]

In a fight for survival, let it be remembered that the Royal Navy, with its nuclear armed submarines, has the capability to destroy any country on earth.

[antonio]

In a fight for survival, let it be remembered that the Royal Navy, with its nuclear armed submarines, has the capability to destroy any country on earth.

Not doubt about it.

[Äike]

the UK and the US are in NATO, thus it's actually NATO VS Brazil and Argentina.

NATO would win, there's no question about it.

[antonio]

Not exactly, my friend, NATO is a defensive alliance to be active just in the case of an aggresion of a third power in the mainland of one of the allies.:

Ps. Your girls are prettier each day. :thumb001:

[Eldritch]

It's probably best if we nuke you now then.

Yep. Pre-emptive nuclear strikes are indeed the key to permanently eliminating all problems and achieving eudaumonia.

Here's an idea: build a nuclear bomb the size of the Earth, cut out a Mercia-shaped bit out the side, and then drop the bomb. That'll put all potential competition out of the game for good. After all, you never know if in 200 or 300 years, Upper Volta or Guinea-Bissau rises to threaten the global Mercian hegemony.

[Electronic God-Man]

Hmmm... Vietnam? Iraq?

The US doesn't have a good track record as of late.

We've had our hands tied in both cases. And we crushed in Iraq, it was the fact that we've stayed there for years now that caused the problems. We ran over the place in a matter of days. We should have just blown the shit out of that place and bounced... :cool: haha.


This question is retarded, to be honest.

[Eldritch]

In a fight for survival, let it be remembered that the Royal Navy, with its nuclear armed submarines, has the capability to destroy any country on earth.

http://jamblichus.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/tpdng22.jpg

[Albion]

Have you ever been to Brazil before? Brazil's terrain is like Vietnam but 100 times worse.

And? The Falklands are cold, rainy, barren islands with a climate and terrain more akin to the Pennines or the Scottish Highlands and islands - where the British have all their training grounds.
In the Falklands War the British found ill-prepared Argentines trying to escape the bitter cold in the crags.
Apparently despite having Tierra del Fuego as a training ground the Argentines hadn't actually trained for the conditions.

The UK also has approximately 160 nukes if things get desperate.

[curupira]

The US and the UK obviously. Actually the UK alone could handle pretty well both Brazil and Argentina. The technology gap is quite large. However one could not fail to mention that Argentines from Buenos Aires repelled a British invasion in the early XIX century... and Brazilians from the Northeast expelled the Dutch invaders in the XVII century (the battles of Guararapes perhaps being the most notable).

The real problem for the US is to deal with the booming Mexican population, since they don't like Mexicans and don't want to integrate them in mainstream WASP society, just like they haven't with African Americans. How are they going to cope with 140 to 150 million Mexicans near or within their own territory? According to George Friedman, Mexico will rise by the end of this century and will pose a threat to the US. Let us just wait and see.

As for the UK I doubt it will become a superpower again in the future as it was in the past. They can handle Brazil and Argentina now, but they wouldn't be able to handle India, North Korea or even Israel. India has space missions of its own, and it is going to be much stronger in the future. As van Creveld pointed it out, Israel is not simply a major power: it is among the top 5 military forces in the world, ahead of the UK in my opinion (technology is crutial these days). And I think North Korea would be able to hit back the UK if they invaded it like they have invaded Iraq: they invaded Iraq exactly because Iraq could not respond like North Korea would.

[Max]

What kind of question is this? Of course the US/UK would win... If they wanted to they could wipe Brazil and Argentina off the face of the earth. China might be a tougher nut to crack though but they will still lose in the end. US has some of the most advanced weapons and a lot of money.The UK has quite possibly the best trained soldiers.

[Cato]

What kind of question is this? Of course the US/UK would win... If they wanted to they could wipe Brazil and Argentina off the face of the earth. China might be a tougher nut to crack though but they will still lose in the end. US has some of the most advanced weapons and a lot of money.The UK has quite possibly the best trained soldiers.

The U.S. has been tinkering with battlefield lasers for a few years now. Non-lethal prototypes exist in terms of small arms:

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/thinking-tech/-8216laser-rifle-8217-is-latest-us-weapon-against-enemies/6176

But, imagine if this technology is perfected.

As to to the U.K., yes, those Gurkhas are pretty badass. :thumb001:

[rustyshiv]

America would crush Brazil and Argentina under it's mighty arches.

[Gaztelu]

The Falkland Islands belong to the UK.

[Óttar]

HIGfNhme3H0

[Dobverrick2023]

Britain and U.S. No doubt

[Bloodeagle]

Is there an Argentine/Brazilian alliance? I assumed they hated each other, kind of a new world Portugues/Spaniard rivalry. They need a SATO to protect Southern Atlantic interests. :D
I nominate the sign of the southern cross as their symbol.
http://dclips.fundraw.com/zobo500dir/southen_cross_01.jpg

[Geto-Thracian]

That's right, the UK naval forces will be spread out all over the world meaning it'll be easier for Brazil and Argentina to capitalize on that and quickly defeat any British presence in the area and quickly fortify the Falklands with hundreds of thousands of troops making it nigh impossible to be taken back unless you prepare a D-Day-like operation.

It would take a week to completely cut off those hundreds of thousands of troops on the islands--who would subsequently starve and die within weeks. There would be no need to invade. Supplying those troops would be impossible with stealth fighters sinking all supply ships...hell those troops would never make it on shore unless they swam there, lol!

US would back UK no matter what, if attacked by an aggressor and the British citizens of Falklands were under threat.

[Albion]

It would take a week to completely cut off those hundreds of thousands of troops on the islands--who would subsequently starve and die within weeks. There would be no need to invade. Supplying those troops would be impossible with stealth fighters sinking all supply ships...hell those troops would never make it on shore unless they swam there, lol!

US would back UK no matter what, if attacked by an aggressor and the British citizens of Falklands were under threat.

Yeah, there's nothing but sheep on the islands and fish in the seas, once the sheep were gone they'd have to risk the British and Americans taking pot-shots at them if they wanted to go fishing. :p

[curupira]

One could look at it the other way... could the US and the UK handle Israel? The answer is no! :thumb001: Brazil and Argentina are large countries but have no real technology to rival the Anglosphere, and they are actively sabotaged. However a country as small as Israel could easily take care of both the US and the UK. :) The wonders of the world, even the "most powerful" nations have their limits.

[rustyshiv]

America would go through Brazil and Argentina like shit through a goose.

The only time Americans would leave is when they grew tired of kicking ass.

[Guararapes]

No need to hurry. Let's wait the 21st century unfold. Argentina is but a small economic province of Brazil. So sweet ! If the United States lost the war to a small tropical country like Vietnam when they were the Hegemon and nowadays NATO is losing the war in Afghanistan, Iraq and they are facing new Arab revolts threatening the Muslim oil and the Anglo-Israelite ruling class ! No need to hurry because the Muslims are making a favour to the world defeating and bankrupting the United States. So game over, the economic deficit and the US Dollar is sinking and melting down ! We can enjoy and applaud the fast economic and geopolitical downfall of the Brittonics and the non-English immigrant-lacqueys in the United States while the BRIC countries are growing stronger year by year. The United South America led by Brazil will take the rotten Malvinas just like China took Hong Kong. The Mexican-Hispanics and the Brown-Black majority in the United States in 2050 will not save an English lost outpost in the Southern Seas.

[poiuytrewq0987]

The Mexican-Hispanics and the Brown-Black majority in the United States in 2050 will not save an English lost outpost in the Southern Seas.

Did you just describe Brazil and pretty much the rest of South America excluding Argentina?

[Rosenrot]

Our belic power is with the bad guys. We have a tuff elite troop, but this guys just have "heart" and they're bad enough. If some crazy war happens right now for shure USA and the British would destroy us.

[Lorene]

Brazil and Argentina!

[Cato]

Brazil and Argentina!

Hehe, on what grounds? :P

[Guararapes]

Did you just describe Brazil and pretty much the rest of South America excluding Argentina?

We have built a big Empire, a big National State because we were the most powerful and the fiercest slaveholders of the entire planet. We were not a failed state like the Austro-Hungarian Empire broken in small unimportant states. Your place is in the Liliput league of the irrelevant countries.
Where in the American continent can you find one Austrian Archduchess but only in the Brazilian Nobility:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Leopoldina_of_Austria

[Kosovo je Sjrbia]

I' ve voted China because the others belong to NATO.
Serbia cannot forgets.

[poiuytrewq0987]

We have built a big Empire, a big National State because we were the most powerful and the fiercest slaveholders of the entire planet. We were not a failed state like the Austro-Hungarian Empire broken in small unimportant states. Your place is in the Liliput league of the irrelevant countries.
Where in the American continent can you find one Austrian Archduchess but only in the Brazilian Nobility:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Leopoldina_of_Austria

I'm NOT Austrian... thank you. :D

[Albion]

No need to hurry. Let's wait the 21st century unfold. Argentina is but a small economic province of Brazil. So sweet ! If the United States lost the war to a small tropical country like Vietnam when they were the Hegemon and nowadays NATO is losing the war in Afghanistan, Iraq and they are facing new Arab revolts threatening the Muslim oil and the Anglo-Israelite ruling class ! No need to hurry because the Muslims are making a favour to the world defeating and bankrupting the United States. So game over, the economic deficit and the US Dollar is sinking and melting down ! We can enjoy and applaud the fast economic and geopolitical downfall of the Brittonics and the non-English immigrant-lacqueys in the United States while the BRIC countries are growing stronger year by year. The United South America led by Brazil will take the rotten Malvinas just like China took Hong Kong. The Mexican-Hispanics and the Brown-Black majority in the United States in 2050 will not save an English lost outpost in the Southern Seas.

Actually its 'BRICS' now, South Africa has joined and now the organisation looks like a bad joke.
America and Western Europe are stagnating more so than actually declining, because you see every economy reaches a peak and that peak has been reached and from there it can go one of two ways - it can fall or it can remain relatively stable (which leads to stagnation in a lot of cases).

Nations have periods of unprecedented growth and the old powers start placing bets for who is going to emerge as the next superpower or great power.
At the turn of the last century it looked as if a few nations would become economically powerful - Australia, Argentina, Canada, South Africa and a few others - what happened to Argentina and South Africa?
Australia and Canada developed well and stayed on course but the other two didn't.

Brazil and Russia are blessed with resources but as we see with Russia in the present era, diversifying and cutting the dependence on raw materials is tricky.
Commodity prices fluctuate dramatically, as a Brazilian do you remember what the British Empire did to your rubber industry by any chance? If not look it up and it'll give you something else to hate the west over.

Now we come to human capital - what individual humans can manufacture, produce and what services they can offer.
Now to offer good human capital a country should offer the following things:

A large labour force - check
Cheap labour - check
Skilled labour - for China: Check, Russia?: Check, Brazil?: Only a part of the population


And then we have geopolitics and pure geography coming into play.
Why is China open to trade over say Brazil? Because the trade routes go from East to West and vice-versa and not so much from North to South.
Even in the Americas with the cheap and large labour force in Latin America the only Latin American country which is really intertwined with the American economy is Mexico.
Russia lies isolated away from the major markets of Western Europe or East Asia, it offers nothing that any other country around it doesn't already offer apart from natural resources and some good scientists.

Brazil is again dependent on resources but is diversifying quite steadily but as of yet the only real multinational or significant business it really has to offer is Embraer. The majority of the Brazilian population is mixed race in some form or other, it is only the white south of the country that makes any significant money! The problem is the majority of your population is to put it simply: stupid.
Why the hell does anyone need Brazil for anyhting but resources when you can go to East Asia and you can actually find quite intelligent people, often more intelligent the Westerners who can offer better products and services than Brazil. With average IQ maps you have to allow for the population to actually be a bit less intelligent than the map actually shows, for example countries with 100 are more likely to be 95-98.
Now take a look at Brazil and tell me what you see:

http://www.kevinalfredstrom.com/art/d/3867-1/race-and-iq.png

And now for India. Why do you think India hasn't developed even nearly as well as China despite being a major economy within the former British Empire? Despite transport links being already in place, left by the British? The good governance left there? The existing trade links with the West and especially the Anglosphere? Why would anyone pick China over India???
Because the Chinese are relatively clever, resourceful and hard working - all the attributes you don't find in India.
Recently however India has produced some IT experts, but bear in mind that this is only a small fractional of their huge and largely dim-witted population.

I'm not even bothering with South Africa.

Now tell me, how does it feel to be a leech? That's what BRICS is. China and maybe perhaps even Russia are the real economies to watch, Brazil, India and especially SA whilst developing in the short term are always going to be held back by the makeup of the population, geography and competition.
Brazil might develop along the lines of say Italy or Spain, but don't count on being number two after China.
China has potential but also has a lot of problems in regards to bubbles and competition from other countries with cheaper labour, their success we depend on them controlling their economy well and the large internal market.
But unless the other BRICS somehow manage to overcome their problems, this is what awaits you:

http://www.hsd1223.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/image0072.jpg
Ever heard of sinking like a stone? Well you'll be sinking like a BRIC.

Oh, and side note: Without a decent economy you're nothing. You won't even be able to afford a decent military and the West still has many nukes and better aircraft carriers, planes, ships and tanks - not the 3rd world cheapo rubbish that Russia and China churn out (mostly inferior copies of Western tech).

[curupira]

Here is a more important question: what will the future of the Anglo US be like? Everyone knows Argentina and Brazil are too weak, and the UK alone would handle both very well. The technology gap is too big, and both Argentina and Brazil are heavily sabotaged so as not to develop technologically.

As of now, the "non hispanic" white percentage of the US is at 63% only (and this includes Near Easterners, South Asians, etc); and going fast downhill. Everyone knows the Israelis and international Jewry have access to all of the American military secrets, and everyone knows they are primarily loyal to the Jewish identity and Israel (Spielberg said to "der Spiegel" he would die for Israel, but I haven't heard him saying he would die for the US). The African American population is growing and they have only but a big resentment against the Anglo establishment. The same goes for the growing US hispanic population.

How is the US going to deal with the booming Mexican population, since they don't like Mexicans and don't want to integrate them in mainstream WASP society, just like they haven't with African Americans? How are they going to cope with 140 to 150 million Mexicans near or within their own territory? According to George Friedman, Mexico will rise by the end of this century and will pose a real threat to the US. Let us just wait and see.

[curupira]

Please don't take what I said above as anti American, which I am not. I was only trying to pose a real challenge, and one that truly exists, not something that could not pose danger at all to the US (or even to the UK alone), such as an Argentine Brazilian alliance. The answer to the question of this thread is too obvious. But the solution of the challenge I mentioned is not: it is quite blurry indeed.

[Laubach]

Well, my father is the Brazilian air force. Our armed forces are bankrupt. Our aircraft are outdated. Let's buy some Rafale, which are not the most modern. We have an old aircraft carrier. We would lose miserably to the Uk and the USA. However, if the combat was in Brazil, we would have our only chance. Our military are not prepared to fight until the Lula´s goverment and were slaves of the U.S. war levy. No use a union with Argentina, because they are in a situation similar to ours. The only thing that could reverse this situation is that the U.S. economy be bankrupt, with successive wars, the fact that the growing presence of Hispanics and the decline of American empire. But even so, today, a short war, we would not have a chance.

[BeerBaron]

:dielaughing: brazil vs the USA in a WAR the Americans would slaughter them, it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. The Americans wouldn't even be trying either, they would lazily send an aircraft carrier and just bomb them for months on end. If they were feeling really lazy they'd just send a nuke over and glass the place.

:dielaughing: brazil vs usa

[Albion]

I don't see why it needs discussing anyway, I highly doubt if it would ever happen, this thread is basically ego-nationalism.