View Full Version : Subsaharan admixture in ''MENA'' groups
TheForeigner
01-14-2015, 01:02 PM
What are the average SSA admixture for the various MENA groups?
Tooting Carmen
01-14-2015, 01:03 PM
North Africans (especially Moroccans and Egyptians) usually score 15-25%; Gulf Arabs 10-15%; other MENAs below 10%, being virtually non-existent in Turkey and the Caucasus.
TheForeigner
01-14-2015, 01:42 PM
North Africans (especially Moroccans and Egyptians) usually score 15-25%; Gulf Arabs 10-15%; other MENAs below 10%, being virtually non-existent in Turkey and the Caucasus.
Those are high admixture levels for North Africans and Gulf Arabs! What about Iraquis and Levantines like Palestinians?
Tooting Carmen
01-14-2015, 01:46 PM
Those are high admixture levels for North Africans and Gulf Arabs! What about Iraquis and Levantines like Palestinians?
5-10% range usually.
TheForeigner
01-14-2015, 02:01 PM
5-10% range usually.
How did all these Arab and Berber groups get such high negroid admixture levels? I thought there is very little and it doesn't show in them, apart for some North Africans and few others.
Hadouken
01-14-2015, 02:02 PM
How did all these Arab and Berber groups get such high negroid admixture levels? I thought there is very little and it doesn't show in them, apart for some North Africans and few others.
slave trade etc. as far as I know
TheForeigner
01-14-2015, 02:06 PM
So are many Arabs and Berbers essentially light mulattoes?
So are many Arabs and Berbers essentially light mulattoes?
More like quadroons. However, they look different from proper mulattoes (SSA + European).
StonyArabia
01-14-2015, 02:21 PM
North Africans (especially Moroccans and Egyptians) usually score 15-25%; Gulf Arabs 10-15%; other MENAs below 10%, being virtually non-existent in Turkey and the Caucasus.
Those numbers don't match recent genetic tests actually. Gulf Arabs and Bedouins are not 10% to 15% and are way less than that. Some of these test include minorities, which skews the results. Based on all ethnic Gulf Arab/Bedouin Arabs they had the same amount of SSA as found in Southern Europe unlike them it's East African. It's way exaggerated. The Levant has less obviously, btw some of it also ancient adn not recent. North Africans have an ancient admix, with some recent admix, in their case it's also exaggerated. It's due to geographical proximity as well.
StonyArabia
01-14-2015, 02:22 PM
More like quadroons. However, they look different from proper mulattoes (SSA + European).
Certainly not, but there is some minor SSA among all Semitic people, even Ashkenazim. If they are Quadroons, Russians are Castizos.
Certainly not, but there is some minor SSA among all Semitic people, even Ashkenazim. If they are Quadroons, Russians are Castizos.
I meant North Africans. There are heavily admixed Moroccans.
StonyArabia
01-14-2015, 02:25 PM
I meant North Africans. There are heavily admixed Moroccans.
Indeed, in Southern Morocco there is good amount of admix and it's recent, but in other parts it's more ancient and does not influence the phenotype and is minor like any other place.
Indeed, in Southern Morocco there is good amount of admix and it's recent, but in other parts it's more ancient and does not influence the phenotype and is minor like any other place.
Yeah, however, I hear some Saudis are part black.
Moroccans
http://firepic.org/images/2015-01/14/d2qjfls0wd7s.jpg (http://firepic.org/)
TheForeigner
01-14-2015, 02:56 PM
More like quadroons. However, they look different from proper mulattoes (SSA + European).
Quadroons and octoroons are light mulattoes. Although with MENA varieties the term ''light'' seems inapropriate.
Quadroons and octoroons are light mulattoes.
Octoroons usually look white, they aren't mulattoes.
StonyArabia
01-14-2015, 03:09 PM
Yeah, however, I hear some Saudis are part black.
Moroccans
http://firepic.org/images/2015-01/14/d2qjfls0wd7s.jpg (http://firepic.org/)
Yes Saudi has muslim immigrants from all over the world. Ethnic population is still quite proto Semitic and Arabid.
Longbowman
01-14-2015, 03:11 PM
What are the average SSA admixture for the various MENA groups?
From K8:
Berber: 24.01%
Morocco: 20.44%
Tunisian: 19.67%
Egypt: 17.71%
Bedouin: 10.42%
Palestinian: 8.55%
Jordan: 8.08%
Saudi: 7.07%
Syria: 5.78%
Lebanese Muslim 4.02%
Druze: 2.53%
Iran: 2.43%
Samaritan: 2.42%
Lebanese Christian 1.86%
Iranian Jewish: 1.30%
Iraqi Jewish: 1.14%
Azeri: 0.71%
Georgian Jewish: 0.71%
Assyrian: 0.36%
Kurd: 0.29%
Turkey: 0.28%
Lezgin 0.06%
Kumyk: 0.05%
Armenia: 0.03%
Adyghei: 0.01%
Abkhazia: 0%
Balkar: 0%
Chechen: 0%
Georgian: 0%
Laz: 0%
Kabardin: 0%
North Ossetian: 0%
Ossetian: 0%
Tabassaran: 0%
From K8:
Berber: 24.01%
Morocco: 20.44%
Tunisian: 19.67%
Egypt: 17.71%
Bedouin: 10.42%
Palestinian: 8.55%
Jordan: 8.08%
Saudi: 7.07%
Syria: 5.78%
Lebanese Muslim 4.02%
Druze: 2.53%
Iran: 2.43%
Samaritan: 2.42%
Lebanese Christian 1.86%
Iranian Jewish: 1.30%
Iraqi Jewish: 1.14%
Azeri: 0.71%
Georgian Jewish: 0.71%
Assyrian: 0.36%
Kurd: 0.29%
Turkey: 0.28%
Lezgin 0.06%
Kumyk: 0.05%
Armenia: 0.03%
Adyghei: 0.01%
Abkhazia: 0%
Balkar: 0%
Chechen: 0%
Georgian: 0%
Laz: 0%
Kabardin: 0%
North Ossetian: 0%
Ossetian: 0%
Tabassaran: 0%
15-20% is more than 1/8 (12.5%).
TheForeigner
01-14-2015, 03:23 PM
Octoroons usually look white, they aren't mulattoes.
Mixed race then.
Mixed race then.
If they don't look that way, they are not. I couldn't care less about the detailed genetic make-up if it's unseen in the phenotype.
TheForeigner
01-14-2015, 03:40 PM
If they don't look that way, they are not. I couldn't care less about the detailed genetic make-up if it's unseen in the phenotype.
Was Pushkin Octoroon?
Was Pushkin Octoroon?
Yes. However, he was 1/8 East African, not West African. East Africans are usually 20% ME (West Asian) or something like that. He didn't look black, he just had dark curly hair and dark eyes. Some idiots or haters exaggerate his negroidness, as if he looked like a real black or a mulatto. Anyway, he was probably more Russian than many Russians of today.
TheForeigner
01-14-2015, 03:46 PM
Yes. However, he was 1/8 East African, not West African. East Africans are usually 20% ME (West Asian) or something like that. He didn't look black, he just had dark curly hair and dark eyes. Some idiots or haters exaggerate his negroidness, as if he looked like a real black or a mulatto. Anyway, he was probably more Russian than many Russians of today.
Not sure about that, but maybe you mean Horn Africans and North Sudanese who are actually more than that. I think they are like 40-50% West Eurasian and Pushkin may have been 1/8 Ethiopian. Of course he was a real Russian and your national poet. He looked like a white European person too.
Willem
01-14-2015, 03:50 PM
South Moroccans are the most Sub-Saharan in North Africa, followed by Upper Egyptians.
In the Arabian peninsula, it's Yemenis and Omanis over all, but Gulf Arab states like Kuwait/Bahrain/UAE/Qatar etc can have Swahili descent outliers who are over 60% SSA.
Gauthier
01-14-2015, 03:53 PM
Yeah, however, I hear some Saudis are part black.
Moroccans
http://firepic.org/images/2015-01/14/d2qjfls0wd7s.jpg (http://firepic.org/)
These people look like Dominicans, which happen to be mulatos.
Not sure about that, but maybe you mean Horn Africans and North Sudanese who are actually more than that. I think they are like 40-50% West Eurasian and Pushkin may have been 1/8 Ethiopian. Of course he was a real Russian and your national poet. He looked like a white European person too.
There were 23andme tests of Ethiopians on this site. They were like 20-25% ME. I'll try and find them now.
Pushkin didn't really care about his ancestry, there were no such things as "black" and "white" in Russia. In today's America he would have probably boasted about his "minority" ancestry.:rolleyes:
@Foreigner (and anybody else)
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?113034-Post-23andme-results-of-Horners-%28East-African-SW-Asian-mongrels%29&highlight=23andme+Ethiopian
Willem
01-14-2015, 03:56 PM
There were 23andme tests of Ethiopians on this site. They were like 20-25% ME. I'll try and find them now.
Pushkin didn't really care about his ancestry, there were no such things as "black" and "white" in Russia. In today's America he would have probably boasted about his "minority" ancestry.:rolleyes:
23andMe has Ethiopians as references for the East African cluster. So, it reduces their overall MENA score. When they are not used as references like in acadamic population genetics studies they are usually 40% West Eurasian.
Similarly, 23andMe reduces the SSA in North Africans due to how their system works.
23andMe has Ethiopians as references for the East African cluster. So, it reduces their overall MENA score. When they are not used as references like in acadamic population genetics studies they are usually 40% West Eurasian.
Similarly, 23andMe reduces the SSA in North Africans due to how their system works.
Well, maybe they are even less SSA. They are obviously different from West Africans.
TheForeigner
01-14-2015, 04:07 PM
Well, maybe they are even less SSA. They are obviously different from West Africans.
East Africans would be not just Horn Africans, but also Kenyans,Ugandans, Tanzanians etc. Those latter groups are much more negroid than ''Horners''.
East Africans would be not just Horn Africans, but also Kenyans,Ugandans, Tanzanians etc. Those latter groups are much more negroid than ''Horners''.
I agree.
Hubal
01-14-2015, 06:38 PM
Over 9000 in south east Morocco
randomguy1235
01-14-2015, 06:44 PM
From K8:
Berber: 24.01%
Morocco: 20.44%
Tunisian: 19.67%
Egypt: 17.71%
Bedouin: 10.42%
Palestinian: 8.55%
Jordan: 8.08%
Saudi: 7.07%
Syria: 5.78%
Lebanese Muslim 4.02%
Druze: 2.53%
Iran: 2.43%
Samaritan: 2.42%
Lebanese Christian 1.86%
Iranian Jewish: 1.30%
Iraqi Jewish: 1.14%
Azeri: 0.71%
Georgian Jewish: 0.71%
Assyrian: 0.36%
Kurd: 0.29%
Turkey: 0.28%
Lezgin 0.06%
Kumyk: 0.05%
Armenia: 0.03%
Adyghei: 0.01%
Abkhazia: 0%
Balkar: 0%
Chechen: 0%
Georgian: 0%
Laz: 0%
Kabardin: 0%
North Ossetian: 0%
Ossetian: 0%
Tabassaran: 0%
How do Palestinians have more SSA than Jordanians and Saudis? Not to say those groups are admixed (since it's usually an ancient component), but that doesn't make any sense. They must be using skewed samples.
LightHouse89
01-14-2015, 06:51 PM
What are the average SSA admixture for the various MENA groups?
soon it will be everywhere :thumbs up
Well, take for example these two Palestinians. The first one is sorta "white", the second one looks part black
http://firepic.org/images/2015-01/14/nf7mgzs2y6wz.jpg (http://firepic.org/)
http://firepic.org/images/2015-01/14/6cu5bfksphf2.jpg (http://firepic.org/)
randomguy1235
01-14-2015, 07:07 PM
Well, take for example these two Palestinians. The first one is sorta "white", the second one looks part black
http://firepic.org/images/2015-01/14/nf7mgzs2y6wz.jpg (http://firepic.org/)
http://firepic.org/images/2015-01/14/6cu5bfksphf2.jpg (http://firepic.org/)
They both look admixed with SSA.
They both look admixed with SSA.
They first one has blue eyes and brown hair.
SupaThug
01-14-2015, 07:09 PM
Well, take for example these two Palestinians. The first one is sorta "white", the second one looks part black
http://firepic.org/images/2015-01/14/nf7mgzs2y6wz.jpg (http://firepic.org/)
http://firepic.org/images/2015-01/14/6cu5bfksphf2.jpg (http://firepic.org/)
The first one looks like a tri-racial I know.
randomguy1235
01-14-2015, 07:09 PM
They first one has blue eyes and brown hair.
Look at his features, he's clearly mixed.
Look at his features, he's clearly mixed.
Congrats, Palis are not fully caucasoid:thumb001::D
randomguy1235
01-14-2015, 07:11 PM
Congrats, Palis are not fully caucasoid:thumb001::D
Congrats, I guess if I posted two mixed Russians they would be representative of all Russians?
Congrats, I guess if I posted two mixed Russians they would be representative of all Russians?
LOL. I tried to present that guy as white, and you Palestinian said he looked mixed. Am I to blame for this?!
randomguy1235
01-14-2015, 07:13 PM
Well, take for example these two Palestinians. The first one is sorta "white", the second one looks part black
http://firepic.org/images/2015-01/14/nf7mgzs2y6wz.jpg (http://firepic.org/)
http://firepic.org/images/2015-01/14/6cu5bfksphf2.jpg (http://firepic.org/)
And how do you know they are Palestinian? Where did you get these pictures?
Alessio
01-14-2015, 07:15 PM
These people look like Dominicans, which happen to be mulatos.
The guy on the right looks my Dominican neighbor.
And how do you know they are Palestinian? Where did you get these pictures?
They are. I saved the pictures from an article about refugees or something like that. They are two friends if I remember correctly. Do they look unpassable to you? I'm not trolling, don't think I am.
randomguy1235
01-14-2015, 07:17 PM
They are. I saved the pictures from an article about refugees or something like that. They are two friends if I remember correctly. Do they look unpassable to you? I'm not trolling, don't think I am.
They are clearly mixed if that's what you're asking. No, they aren't passable.
They are clearly mixed if that's what you're asking. No, they aren't passable.
I'm surprised. I actually thought the light guy represented that "Judaean" part of the population, as AngloJew says. He says the "original" Palis were white. :)
randomguy1235
01-14-2015, 07:22 PM
I'm surprised. I actually thought the light guy represented that "Judaean" part of the population, as AngloJew says. He says the "original" Palis were white. :)
He is not light dude, he just has blue eyes.
Tooting Carmen
01-14-2015, 07:22 PM
I'm surprised. I actually thought the light guy represented that "Judaean" part of the population, as AngloJew says. He says the "original" Palis were white. :)
Nordicist nonsense. It is Jews who have got much lighter through mixing with Europeans, whereas Palestinians look much the same as they always did, as do most other Middle Easterners for that matter.
Nordicist nonsense. It is Jews who have got much lighter through mixing with Europeans, whereas Palestinians look much the same as they always did, as do most other Middle Easterners for that matter.
Well, he isn't a real nordicist. He only means that Africans corrupted Palestinian people. Black admixture was absent when Jesus lived there.
Tooting Carmen
01-14-2015, 07:25 PM
Well, he isn't a real nordicist. He only means that Africans corrupted Palestinian people. Black admixture was absent when Jesus lived there.
Perhaps. But even so, they'd have still been an overwhelmingly dark-haired, dark-eyed, olive-skinned people, even without the Black admixture.
randomguy1235
01-14-2015, 07:28 PM
Well, he isn't a real nordicist. He only means that Africans corrupted Palestinian people. Black admixture was absent when Jesus lived there.
Which is bullshit. He claims that because he wants equal genetic claim to the land since it's been proven that Jews are a mixed peoples.
Perhaps. But even so, they'd have still been an overwhelmingly dark-haired, dark-eyed, olive-skinned people, even without the Black admixture.
I've always thought so. I imagine them being similar to this
http://hd.se/multimedia/dynamic/00751/49grattis-1203-isma_751085v530x800.jpg
Which is bullshit. He claims that because he wants equal genetic claim to the land since it's been proven that Jews are a mixed peoples.
I don't know what he claims. I won't speak for him. Maybe we should invite him here.
Sorry, if those two guys are not representative. I didn't mean anything bad. I'll try to find the source of the pictures.
randomguy1235
01-14-2015, 07:36 PM
Sorry, if those two guys are not representative. I didn't mean anything bad. I'll try to find the source of the pictures.
It's ok, it's not like you were trying to disingenuously portray Palestinians. That's been done plenty of times before on this forum by a multitude of people.
Tooting Carmen
01-14-2015, 07:39 PM
These are what I'd envisage average Palestinians to look like:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?143846-Classify-these-two-senior-members-of-the-Palestinian-Authority
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?146521-Classify-Mahmoud-Al-Habbash-Senior-Advisor-to-the-Palestinian-Authority
Isleño
01-14-2015, 07:40 PM
These people look like Dominicans, which happen to be mulatos.Well that's because North Africans and Caribbean people such as Dominicans and Puerto Ricans have similar components in similar percentages. North Africans can range from having little SSA (northern North Africa) to having larger SSA (southern North Africa). For instance, when you add up the recent SSA and ancient SSA found in the North African component, you get numbers ranging in the teens into the twenties (and even higher for very SSA admixed types). For North Africans, the number can be greater the closer they are to black populations near the Sahara, and less the farthest away from the Sahara. So if you look at Spanish-speaking Caribbeans such as Puerto Ricans and Dominicans, they have similar amounts of Caucasoid DNA and similar amounts of Negroid DNA as North Africans do, which in that combination can lead to similar looking phenotypes.
23andMe has Ethiopians as references for the East African cluster. So, it reduces their overall MENA score. When they are not used as references like in acadamic population genetics studies they are usually 40% West Eurasian.
Similarly, 23andMe reduces the SSA in North Africans due to how their system works.
That's true.
People will very often read 23andme's AC results in a wrong way when it comes to ancient admixtures. Willem's comment explains it very well.
The first one looks like a tri-racial I know.
Both of them could easily pass as Brazilians. They are both mixed looking.
Both of them could easily pass as Brazilians. They are both mixed looking.
I can't find the sourse, so let's discount them for lack of evidence. I may have confused something.
SupaThug
01-14-2015, 07:51 PM
Both of them could easily pass as Brazilians. They are both mixed looking.
Few people can't pass as brazilian hahaha...but yeah they both look like stereotypical ''pardos''!
I can't find the sourse, so let's discount them for lack of evidence. I may have confused something.
I am not saying they aren't from where you claim them to be. I just said their looks wouldn't be out of place in Brazil.
Isleño
01-14-2015, 07:57 PM
Which is bullshit. He claims that because he wants equal genetic claim to the land since it's been proven that Jews are a mixed peoples.
Actually both Jews and Palestinians have admixture in modern times. Jews picked up some in abroad before returning to the Levant and Palestinians picked up some from the spread of Islam to the Levant. Neither modern Jews or Palestinians are fully like the ancient Levantines genetically.
Few people can't pass as brazilian hahaha...but yeah they both look like stereotypical ''pardos''!
Yes, indeed they have a big "pardo vibe" to them.
randomguy1235
01-14-2015, 08:00 PM
Actually both Jews and Palestinians have admixture in modern times. Jews picked up some in abroad before returning to the Levant and Palestinians picked up some from the spread of Islam to the Levant. Neither modern Jews or Palestinians are fully like the ancient Levantines genetically.
The amount of foreign admixture that ETHNIC Palestinians have picked up is negligible compared to the amount of admixture Jews as a whole have obtained and you know that.
The amount of foreign admixture that ETHNIC Palestinians have picked up is negligible compared to the amount of admixture Jews as a whole have obtained and you know that.
Jews are 1/3 non-Judaean or something. Mark Zuckerberg can't pass in the Levant.
Berel Lazar, Chief Rabbi of Russia. He was born in Milan, Italy.
http://via-midgard.info//uploads/posts/2012-11/1353623696_1308062574_berl_lazar.jpg
Longbowman
01-14-2015, 08:07 PM
Jews are 1/3 non-Judaean or something. Mark Zuckerberg can't pass in the Levant.
1/3 is a very low estimate and assumes Northern admixture, rather than Southern.
Anyhow I update my K8 spreadsheet and organised it geographically, if anyone's interested in the racial breakdown by ethnicity of Ethiopia and the Horn:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml
Isleño
01-14-2015, 08:24 PM
The amount of foreign admixture that ETHNIC Palestinians have picked up is negligible compared to the amount of admixture Jews as a whole have obtained and you know that.
Yes, I do know that. I was just making a statement that they are both different than the ancients as they both have picked up admixture. But yes it's very true that Jews have picked up much more. However, the Druze have picked up the least and are much less admixed than other Jews.
Longbowman
01-14-2015, 08:28 PM
Yes, I do know that. I was just making a statement that they are both different than the ancients as they both have picked up admixture. But yes it's very true that Jews have picked up much more. However, the Druze have picked up the least and are much less admixed than other Jews.
Indeed, Druze aren't Jews at all.
Most non-European Jews have negligible or even zero WHG.
Isleño
01-14-2015, 08:58 PM
Indeed, Druze aren't Jews at all.
Most non-European Jews have negligible or even zero WHG.
No, I wouldn't say Druze are "Jews", but certainly Levantines that have picked up less admixture than the two groups in question. It's true most non-European jews have negligible or zero WHG yes. But where they lack in one ancestry, they may have picked up in another.
It can be difficult to gauge the actual percentages of which components the ancients were, it makes the arguement about it difficult as well. But there are peer-reviewed studies that suggest the ancient Levantines were more European-like than modern Levantines. So it's really a big question mark when we discuss these things.
Longbowman
01-14-2015, 09:01 PM
No, I wouldn't say Druze are "Jews", but certainly Levantines that have picked up less admixture than the two groups in question. It's true most non-European jews have negligible or zero WHG yes. But where they lack in one ancestry, they may have picked up in another.
It can be difficult to gauge the actual percentages of which components the ancients were, it makes the arguement about it difficult as well. But there are peer-reviewed studies that suggest the ancient Levantines were more European-like than modern Levantines. So it's really a big question mark when we discuss these things.
Druze empirically are not Jews. They're not a Jewish group. That's all I'm saying. They're a Levantine group that profess the Druze religion which, and yes I know the name is confusing, is a derivative of Islam, not Judaism.
randomguy1235
01-14-2015, 09:04 PM
Druze empirically are not Jews. They're not a Jewish group. That's all I'm saying. They're a Levantine group that profess the Druze religion which, and yes I know the name is confusing, is a derivative of Islam, not Judaism.
Sorry to interject but could you explain how Palestinians score higher SSA than Jordanians and Saudis? Those two groups aren't recently mixed either (with some exceptions in Saudi), so it is very strange. What region were the samples obtained from?
Longbowman
01-14-2015, 09:08 PM
Sorry to interject but could you explain how Palestinians score higher SSA than Jordanians and Saudis? Those two groups aren't recently mixed either (with some exceptions in Saudi), so it is very strange. What region were the samples obtained from?
Potentially Gaza, there's no breakdown of the Palestinian sample. Either way the difference is not very high and could be explained by proximity to Egypt.
Lebanese Christian (n=25) - 1.86%
Lebanese Muslim (n=25) - 4.02%
Islam has "blackened" them.:D
Longbowman
01-14-2015, 09:12 PM
Lebanese Christian (n=25) - 1.86%
Lebanese Muslim (n=25) - 4.02%
Islam has "blackened" them.:D
Also made them more European:
Christian: 5.54% WHG
Muslim: 6.18% WHG
Also made them more European:
Christian: 5.54% WHG
Muslim: 6.18% WHG
Well, I'm joking, whether it's 2 or 4 percent, it's still a small amount anyway. Actually, according to that spreadsheet, some places in Iberia are 2+ percent SSA.
Sikeliot
01-14-2015, 09:17 PM
How do Palestinians have more SSA than Jordanians and Saudis?.
Egyptian ancestry in many Gazans. As we can see Egyptian average is 17-18% SSA, and surely there are many who have much more.
SupaThug
01-14-2015, 09:17 PM
Well, I'm joking, whether it's 2 or 4 percent, it's still a small amount anyway. Actually, according to that spreadsheet, some places in Iberia are 2+ percent SSA.
Most of those places are actually small enclaves that are not representative of the Iberian population.
Vasconcelos
01-14-2015, 09:18 PM
Most of those places are actually small enclaves that are not representative of the Iberian population.
It's probably just remnants of old migrations from North Africa.
Most of those places are actually small enclaves that are not representative of the Iberian population.
Maybe, but Sicily is also 1.5-2% SSA. It's still pretty negligible.
Sikeliot
01-14-2015, 09:19 PM
Maybe, but Sicily is also 1.5-2% SSA. It's still pretty negligible.
That is probably due to the proximity to North Africa. It is likely that it arrived with the NW African component that appears also.
Isleño
01-14-2015, 09:34 PM
Most of those places are actually small enclaves that are not representative of the Iberian population.Averages are never really a fix all result representing everyone in a nation, but they do a good job of giving a ballpark figure. But they can change slightly from calculator to calculator and study to study. Especially for national average vs. regional average. For instance, Dodecad has Spaniards with the national average as 2%-3% North African, but then one from Dodecad has regional averages with higher percentages for certain regions like 5% for Andalucía and 6% for Murcia and such. But of course there will be some in both regions with less, more and around those figures.
Isleño
01-14-2015, 09:42 PM
It's probably just remnants of old migrations from North Africa.
From the information that I've gathered over the years about Iberian genetics, I think it's a mix of remnants from ancient migrations as well as the Moorish conquest. There's still a debate out as to whether more of it is from ancient or Moorish remnants, but one thing can be certain is that it does exists in the population. Debates about it to explore the possibilities are always beneficial.
Isleño
01-14-2015, 09:45 PM
I do understand; you've misunderstood the evidence. I will explain later, I am drawing maps now.
Well if you insist on telling me that I'm wrong and I misunderstood, I guess I will have to wait until you can get back to me with evidence that supports that theory. I will let you carry on with what you are doing. My pm inbox is always open to messages.
Vasconcelos
01-14-2015, 09:51 PM
From the information that I've gathered over the years about Iberian genetics, I think it's a mix of remnants from ancient migrations as well as the Moorish conquest. There's still a debate out as to whether more of it is from ancient or Moorish remnants, but one thing can be certain is that it does exists in the population. Debates about it to explore the possibilities are always beneficial.
That moorish theory doesn't make any sense.
Galicia has over 2%, despite being under Islamic control for as long (or short) as Narbonne, in France, whereas Aragon scores 0% eventhough Zaragoza was only taken from the local taifa in 1118. Besides, since 756 the Caliphate of Córdoba was independent from North Africa.
Isleño
01-14-2015, 10:03 PM
That moorish theory doesn't make any sense.
Galicia has over 2%, despite being under Islamic control for as long (or short) as Narbonne, in France, whereas Aragon scores 0% eventhough Zaragoza was only taken from the local taifa in 1118. Besides, since 756 the Caliphate of Córdoba was independent from North Africa.
I said it's probably a mix of the two, both ancient and Moorish. In some areas could be one or the other or neither. This of course is my belief from what I've read, you may come to a different conclusion. Can I ask where are you getting your percentages from?
Let me ask you a question, do you believe SW Asian would be related to the Moorish conquest or no?
Vasconcelos
01-14-2015, 10:39 PM
I said it's probably a mix of the two, both ancient and Moorish. In some areas could be one or the other or neither. This of course is my belief from what I've read, you may come to a different conclusion. Can I ask where are you getting your percentages from?
The K8 spreadsheet (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?155723-K8-All-Populations-Spreadsheet).
Let me ask you a question, do you believe SW Asian would be related to the Moorish conquest or no?
No, I don't. My bet is that's it's older, like Neolithic.
Isleño
01-14-2015, 10:59 PM
The K8 spreadsheet.How are you doing that? The K8 doesn't give NW African-specific percentages.
No, I don't. My bet is that's it's older, like Neolithic.I think there is both ancient and recent, just the same as I do for North African. There's a Gerard et al. study on the Arab subhaplotype Va and it's significant presence in Andalucía which they attribute to the conquest.
So from all the evidence I've read, I've come to the conclusion that both NW African and SW Asian in Iberia has both a recent and ancient origin.
Vasconcelos
01-14-2015, 11:11 PM
How are you doing that? The K8 doesn't give NW African-specific percentages.
I'm talking about SSA. It's possible that NW Africans thast moved into Europe in the Neolithic had some SSA in them.
StonyArabia
01-14-2015, 11:12 PM
My cousin who is half Anglo American is 2% East African she scores 0 west African, I do the same but one % higher lolz. That said there is ancient and recent admix in the Mideast in my case and cousin I think it's not recent at all and can be explained by Arabia's proximity to Africa, the desert also played a role in being a barrier.
Alchemysta
01-14-2015, 11:14 PM
Moroccans have the largest sub-saharan admixture
Alchemysta
01-14-2015, 11:15 PM
http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/4253271372176939image.jpg
Longbowman
01-14-2015, 11:31 PM
Ok so my total SSA as an egyptian is 7%
No, it's 17% or so.
Isleño
01-14-2015, 11:54 PM
I'm talking about SSA. It's possible that NW Africans thast moved into Europe in the Neolithic had some SSA in them.
Oh, ok. Well I was talking about NW African. SSA probably fluctuated among NW Africans just like today, possibly less though. It's an interesting subject nevertheless. Especially for people such as you and I who's ancestry is from Iberia. There are never ending debates to whether the ancestry is ancient or recent or both. Debate is healthy though.
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 12:09 AM
Sure, thanks for the tip. I have been using Dodecad most of the time. It works beautifully when looking for some of the sub-categories such as East African, Northwest African etc. But true for a basic category like SSA it can be a guessing game sometimes if you are using a calculator that has other categories that contain SSA. And the K8 looks suited for that type of task. But it seems the K8 has the opposite problem, it's great for basic categories like SSA, but to find East African, NW African, SW Asian or some sub-category, it's the same type of guessing. I will continue to use Dodecad as I have, but I'll check out the K8 more often as well. I've frequented them all and tended to neglect Eurogenes. But it can be useful.
Eurogenes, I feel, has the better series. Also bear in mind we're moving away from the old-style components which don't tell us as much as the K8-style ones do.
Isleño
01-15-2015, 12:21 AM
Eurogenes, I feel, has the better series. Also bear in mind we're moving away from the old-style components which don't tell us as much as the K8-style ones do.
Yes, I'm sure Eurogenes calculators like the K8 has it's place and so do those from Dodecad and others. But it's awfully difficult to assess the Northwest African of a population or the SW Asian of a population on calculators like K8. And for that, I think it's probably best to use a variety for whichever component is in question. I know there is increased use of categories such as "West Eurasian", but even that can seem to prove difficult to find a specific component of a population within that large area since it's so general.
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 12:23 AM
Yes, I'm sure Eurogenes calculators like the K8 has it's place and so do those from Dodecad and others. But it's awfully difficult to assess the Northwest African of a population or the SW Asian of a population on calculators like K8. And for that, I think it's probably best to use a variety for whichever component is in question. I know there is increased use of categories such as "West Eurasian", but even that can seem to prove difficult to find a specific component of a population within that large area since it's so general.
That's what oracles are for.
Isleño
01-15-2015, 12:31 AM
That's what oracles are for.
Yeah but if we are talking about the same oracles, they only show 100%, 50% or 25% percentages. There's no way to see if one is, say for instance, 9.8% SW Asian or 2.1% NW African. I think the best plan of attack is to move around and use calculators from several different series that fit the task you are looking for rather than using one as a default go to for all your genetic questions.
oblivion
01-15-2015, 01:29 AM
No, it's 17% or so.
How do you reckon? Based on his calculations, I would have 7%....
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 01:39 AM
How do you reckon? Based on his calculations, I would have 7%....
As he has realised, his calculations are incorrect. You have what K8 says you have.
oblivion
01-15-2015, 02:38 AM
As he has realised, his calculations are incorrect. You have what K8 says you have.
How do I takevthe k8 test because I dont think I have 17% SSA...
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 02:45 AM
How do I takevthe k8 test because I dont think I have 17% SSA...
You need to pay $20 to Davidski. What did your K7 say?
oblivion
01-15-2015, 03:52 AM
You need to pay $20 to Davidski. What did your K7 say?
Where do I take the k7?
oblivion
01-15-2015, 03:53 AM
You need to pay $20 to Davidski. What did your K7 say?
Where do I take the k7?
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 04:26 AM
Where do I take the k7?
GEDmatch.
oblivion
01-15-2015, 04:58 AM
GEDmatch.
If you are talkibg about k7 eurogenes I score 11% east afrixan and 0 west african
oblivion
01-15-2015, 05:02 AM
GEDmatch.
If you are talking about dodecad k7b its at 9%
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 05:21 AM
If you are talking about dodecad k7b its at 9%
Variation will be high in Egypt. Around 10% is believable, even for a full Egyptian, I think. Still, K8 is better.
Smeagol
01-15-2015, 05:33 AM
No, it's 17% or so.
She is a Copt. They have less SSA than Muslim Egyptians, and zero West African which the Muslims acquired from the slave trade.
Smeagol
01-15-2015, 05:50 AM
Nordicist nonsense. It is Jews who have got much lighter through mixing with Europeans, whereas Palestinians look much the same as they always did, as do most other Middle Easterners for that matter.
Wrong, you ignore the Arab conquest, and slave trade.
Smeagol
01-15-2015, 05:53 AM
You're behind the times. Use K8. Saudis are quite SSA influenced.
No, even according to your source, they only have 7%, and it's East African. Probably very ancient for the most part, and associated with people who had a Caucasoid phenotype.
TheForeigner
01-15-2015, 09:19 AM
No, even according to your source, they only have 7%, and it's East African. Probably very ancient for the most part, and associated with people who had a Caucasoid phenotype.
Lol at the ''Caucasoid Horner'' thing again. Well they were some kind of ancient mulatto race and still are, so maybe half of that should be considered their real negroid admixture.
TheForeigner
01-15-2015, 09:29 AM
That is probably due to the proximity to North Africa. It is likely that it arrived with the NW African component that appears also.
So many Moors were assimilated into the Christian population, you think?
TheForeigner
01-15-2015, 09:36 AM
The amount of foreign admixture that ETHNIC Palestinians have picked up is negligible compared to the amount of admixture Jews as a whole have obtained and you know that.
Who are the majority of the ancestors of the Palestinians exactly?
TheForeigner
01-15-2015, 09:50 AM
Also is the old European admixture in Jews all South European Greco-Roman?
Dombra
01-15-2015, 09:54 AM
Also is the old European admixture in Jews all South European Greco-Roman?
Ashkenazim have Germanic and Slavic admixture while Sephardi have Iberian
Harkonnen
01-15-2015, 10:01 AM
No, even according to your source, they only have 7%, and it's East African. Probably very ancient for the most part, and associated with people who had a Caucasoid phenotype.
Somalis score 57 SSA, 41% Middle Eastern which would suggest me that the SSA is not a East African component.
What comes to the phenotype of first neolithics, the Natufians fit the bill I think
http://i.imgur.com/7NRxk.jpg
As you can see Natufians had on the most meaningful variate 1, actually more similarity to West Africans, than what modern East Africans have. Which is a amazing feat in itself. This makes me think the so called 'caucasoidness' of East Africans is actually rather recent evolution, as I doubt they, the Natufians had more SSA in them than what modern East Africans have. But I guess it is possible, they did. According to Brace, Natufians the first Neolithics had a "Sub-Saharan African element present of almost equal importance as the Late Prehistoric Eurasian element".
The assessment of prehistoric and recent human craniofacial dimensions supports the picture documented by genetics that the extension of Neolithic agriculture from the Near East westward to Europe and across North Africa was accomplished by a process of demic diffusion (11–15). If the Late Pleistocene Natufian sample from Israel is the source from which that Neolithic spread was derived, then there was clearly a SubSaharan African element present of almost equal importance as the Late Prehistoric Eurasian element.
Here is what Coon wrote about Natufians
The brain cases are of medium size, and the faces absolutely small. The lower jaws are also small and weakly developed, with little chin prominence and a prevalence of alveolar prognathism. The wide, low-vaulted nose, in combination with prognathism, gives a somewhat negroid cast to the face. The browridges are smooth, and the whole system of muscularity in the male but slightly developed. These late Natufians represent a basically Mediterranean type with minor negroid affinities. There was, apparently, a change of race during the Natufian. These small Mediterraneans must have brought their microliths from some point farther south or east, impelled by changes of climate.
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 11:41 AM
She is a Copt. They have less SSA than Muslim Egyptians, and zero West African which the Muslims acquired from the slave trade.
Zero is probably a stretch but as I said, yeah, there'll be variation. Egypt's huge and diverse yet I only have one reference population for it. 10% is believable.
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 11:43 AM
No, even according to your source, they only have 7%, and it's East African. Probably very ancient for the most part, and associated with people who had a Caucasoid phenotype.
7.07% and no, it isn't East African. I just had a very long debate over this with Isleno, please read the entire thread before commenting. The component is SSA and does not include Caucasian East African admixture. I know you tend to focus on phenotype and are behind on genetics but it was literally written out for you.
TheForeigner
01-15-2015, 11:44 AM
Zero is probably a stretch but as I said, yeah, there'll be variation. Egypt's huge and diverse yet I only have one reference population for it. 10% is believable.
I think there is much variability with Morrocan and Algerian populations that doesn't show here in these results. They are divided in tribes too. I imagine Khabiles,Riffians and a few other groups are not really admixed. How come Lybians have such a high average? Tuaregs must be the most mixed.
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 11:45 AM
Lol at the ''Caucasoid Horner'' thing again. Well they were some kind of ancient mulatto race and still are, so maybe half of that should be considered their real negroid admixture.
The 7.07% is that half. Do I really have to explain that to everyone? Read the entire thread before you post.
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 11:46 AM
Also is the old European admixture in Jews all South European Greco-Roman?
IBD sharing supports that but we don't know for sure.
TheForeigner
01-15-2015, 11:52 AM
IBD sharing supports that but we don't know for sure.
What were the Palestinians' ancestors?
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 11:57 AM
What were the Palestinians' ancestors?
Southern Levantines for the most part, plus other Arabians, black slaves/travellers and some Europeans.
TheForeigner
01-15-2015, 12:01 PM
Southern Levantines for the most part, plus other Arabians, black slaves/travellers and some Europeans.
How did these Southern Levantines end up there or who were they?
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 12:03 PM
How did these Southern Levantines end up there or who were they?
Probably been there since OOA.
oblivion
01-15-2015, 12:05 PM
Zero is probably a stretch but as I said, yeah, there'll be variation. Egypt's huge and diverse yet I only have one reference population for it. 10% is believable.
I know most ppl dont believe me but all the copts who have done dna tests either score 0%west african like me or very little... I dunno if its isolated or something we conclude about all copts. On that K7 test my top population is bedouin and then yemeni jew and then egyptian so I dunno
TheForeigner
01-15-2015, 12:07 PM
Probably been there since OOA.
OOA?
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 12:07 PM
I know most ppl dont believe me but all the copts who have done dna tests either score 0%west african like me or very little... I dunno if its isolated or something we conclude about all copts. On that K7 test my top population is bedouin and then yemeni jew and then egyptian so I dunno
Bedouin are over 10% SSA on average, Yemenite Jews almost 7.5%.
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 12:07 PM
OOA?
Out of Africa.
Lol at the ''Caucasoid Horner'' thing again. Well they were some kind of ancient mulatto race and still are, so maybe half of that should be considered their real negroid admixture.
No one would seriously consider them "caucasoid". They are blacks to the world, however, we cannot deny that they are different from West Africans.
TheForeigner
01-15-2015, 12:10 PM
Out of Africa.
So they are also Israelites who went Muslim then, plus other Levantines. I know what you mean by out of Africa, but do you think the Israelites really were captives in Egypt too or any proof they lived there?
TheForeigner
01-15-2015, 12:12 PM
No one would seriously consider them "caucasoid". They are blacks to the world, however, we cannot deny that they are different from West Africans.
Yes, I agree but apparently some old anthropologists classed them as such and I don't get why. Also, some people claim that Finns were once not seen as white or true Europeans and some Euro-Mongoloid race or something, but haven't seen proof of it.
TheForeigner
01-15-2015, 12:13 PM
I've only seen anthro stuff claim Lapps were mixed race, but they are clearly white to me and with minor admixture. Same with Eastern Finnics.
Yes, I agree but apparently some old anthropologists classed them as such and I don't get why. Also, some people claim that Finns were once not seen as white or true Europeans and some Euro-Mongoloid race or something, but haven't seen proof of it.
Well, "black" and "white" are more cultural terms. Horners might be West Asian-admixed, but they are Sub-Saharan African enough to be considered "black".
oblivion
01-15-2015, 12:31 PM
Bedouin are over 10% SSA on average, Yemenite Jews almost 7.5%.
I score 9% but I wish I could see what the egyptian reference scored.. Is there a spreadsheet for that? I know for a fact I have non egyptian blood in me which may have diluted the SSA or the SSA was introduced later on once my ancestors moved to egypt
Abeja
01-15-2015, 12:36 PM
What about Iraqi Sunnis and Shias? How much is their SSA component?
Smeagol
01-15-2015, 07:57 PM
Natufians clustered craniofacially between Subsaharan, and West Eurasian groups, and they apparently had African ancestry from around the area of Nubia which during the Mesolithic had more affinities to Negroids than in later eras. Brace's study only had four Natufian skulls though, and other authors noted that they varied by period, so I think there may have been more variation between them. Also, the Natufian culture was probably not the source of the Neolithic Revolution. The first farmers appear to have been from Anatolia, and they spread into the Levant, which according to Brace seems to lose its Subsaharan affinity by the Neolithic. J. Lawrence Angel also noted that the early Neolithic people of the Levant were "Caucasoid".
Quoting Brace:
The interbreeding of the incoming Neolithic people with the in situ foragers diluted the Sub-Saharan traces that may have come with the Neolithic spread so that no discoverable element of that remained
Quoting Angel:
"Although the first agricultural inhabitants of the belt from Syria-Israel-Jordan to North Africa were mainly rugged Mediterranean (A3 and some B, in varying preponderance) the eastern end of this belt (McGown, 1939; Vallois, 1936), shows some almost Bushmen-like Basic White (A4b) as well as lateral traits (E1 and C4 [Mixed Alpine and Alpine]) as at Jericho."
Study on Neolithic Farmers:
http://www.ceacb.ucl.ac.uk/cultureclub/files/2004-2005/CC2004-10-07-pinhasi_pluciennik.pdf
[Pinhasi and Pluciennik (2004) analyzed the crania of Mesolithic and Neolithic populations and found no biological relationship between the Natufians and the later West Asian groups who spread farming to Europe:
Analysis of morphological variability in the Near East and Europe suggests that the Epipalaeolithic populations from the Natufian Levant were noticeably different to the Mesolithic populations described from the Danube Gorge, the western Mediterranean, and central Europe. No close similarities were observed between Early Neolithic and Mesolithic European groups in any of the regions studied, with the possible exception of Mediterranean Europe. However, neither were clear affinities observed between Epipalaeolithic Near Eastern groups [Natufians] and any other Neolithic or Mesolithic groups.These results support a third scenario — that the Epipalaeolithic population from which the first Anatolian farmers descended has yet to be discovered.... There is therefore no unequivocal evidence from biological morphometrics for local continuity between Natufian specimens and any of those from the Anatolian or Levantine PPN [Pre-Pottery Neolithic] cultures. Statistical analysis of the Levantine populations indicates no obvious biological continuity between Natufian groups and their successors — either the first Neolithic cultures of the PPNA or subsequently between the PPNA and the PPNB.
Another study on Neolithic Farmers: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0006747 Does not involve the Natufians at all in any of the possible dispersal models of migration from West Asia to Europe.
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/3483/fetchobjectactionuriinf.png
Figure 1. Map showing geographic distribution of all OTUs. Dispersal models involving the active migration of people from SW Asia take two basic forms. Once-off single dispersals from either Anatolia (brown arrow) or the Levant (orange arrows), or continuous dispersal models whereby active population migration continued from southeastern Europe into central Europe (blue arrows). CD = Continuous dispersal, IBD = Isolation-by-distance (null), LGF = Limited gene flow.
Figure 3 plots the first two principal co-ordinates of the craniometric distance matrix. The OTUs [operational taxonomic units] do not group according to any particular geographic or temporal pattern on the first or second principal co-ordinates. However, the first principal co-ordinate separates the archaeologically defined Neolithic OTUs from OTUs designated as Mesolithic plus the Natufian.Therefore, the principal co-ordinate analysis suggests that Neolithic and Mesolithic populations are biologically differentiated.
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8625/pinhasi2009fig3.png
Figure 3. Plot of the first two principal co-ordinates illustrating OTU affinity patterns based on craniometric data. The major axis of variation (horizontal axis, 34.9% variance) shows a clear distinction between all archaeologically defined Neolithic OTUs (green, brown and black circle symbols) and all Mesolithic OTUs (purple and red symbols) plus the Natufian (black triangle). Second axis = 18.7% variance.
As for Horn Africans, the probably got Eurasian admixture from Arabs who spread Semitic languages to East Africa, but how much, I don't know. Coon said that prehistoric Horners were predominantly Caucasoid with some Negroid traits by phenotype though, and the were apparently distinct from the Nubians of the same era according to some studies I've seen. My view is that Somalis are probably a good representation of what Horn Africans have been phenotypic ally for thousands of years, since they for the most part lack admixture from Arabian Semites unlike many Ethiopians.
Results of Interesting study on the Elmenteita, Nakuru and Kopje skulls from prehistoric Kenya:
"Howells WW (1995) Who's Who in skulls: ethnic identification of crania from measurements. Peabody Museum Papers 82:1-108."
(...) The DISPOP results here are not indicative of anything, except a general non-African nature for all these skulls. Display of POPKIN distances (infra) reinforces this and seems to find nearer neighbors among such more generalized populations as Peru, Guam, or Ainu, but also Europeans or even Easter Island.
Remembering that the Teita series (Bantu speakers of southeastern Kenya), and the recent East African skulls in table 4 above, do clearly exhibit African affiliations, it is fair to say, contra Rightmire, that there seems to be no clear continuity here in late prehistory. On the broad scale, looking at an "Out-of-Africa" scenario, one would expect that, in some region between southern and northeastern Africa, some differentiation would have been taking place within a Homo sapiens stock, evolving into something beginning to approximate later Sub-Saharan peoples on the one hand, and evolving in another direction on the other hand. East Africa would be a likely locale for appearance of the latter. So anyone is welcome to argue that this is what Elmenteita et al. are manifesting. The ensuing picture for East Africa, that is to say, would later have beeen changed through replacement by the expansion of Bantu or other "Negroid" tribes.
Smeagol
01-15-2015, 07:59 PM
Somalis score 57 SSA, 41% Middle Eastern which would suggest me that the SSA is not a East African component.
What comes to the phenotype of first neolithics, the Natufians fit the bill I think
http://i.imgur.com/7NRxk.jpg
As you can see Natufians had on the most meaningful variate 1, actually more similarity to West Africans, than what modern East Africans have. Which is a amazing feat in itself. This makes me think the so called 'caucasoidness' of East Africans is actually rather recent evolution, as I doubt they, the Natufians had more SSA in them than what modern East Africans have. But I guess it is possible, they did. According to Brace, Natufians the first Neolithics had a "Sub-Saharan African element present of almost equal importance as the Late Prehistoric Eurasian element".
Here is what Coon wrote about Natufians
I meant to quote you in my previous post.
How did all these Arab and Berber groups get such high negroid admixture levels? I thought there is very little and it doesn't show in them, apart for some North Africans and few others.
Are you sure? Those are Moroccans, typical ones actually.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/05/09/arts/rock.184.1.6350.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/WORLD/africa/06/19/morocco.protests/t1larg.morocco.jpg
Smeagol
01-15-2015, 08:13 PM
Are you sure? Those are Moroccans, typical ones actually.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/05/09/arts/rock.184.1.6350.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/WORLD/africa/06/19/morocco.protests/t1larg.morocco.jpg
These are are probably Southern Moroccans who have a lot of recent Bantu ancestry. I wouldn't say they"re typical for Morocco in general.
ButlerKing
01-15-2015, 08:16 PM
If they don't look that way, they are not. I couldn't care less about the detailed genetic make-up if it's unseen in the phenotype.
Turks also have 5%, 10%, 15% Mongoloid admixture but is unseen in the phenotype but doesn't change the fact they are 5-15% more Mongoloid than the average European though.
Turks also have 5%, 10%, 15% Mongoloid admixture but is unseen in the phenotype but doesn't change the fact they are 5-15% more Mongoloid than the average European though.
4.34%, according to this spreadsheet.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 10:27 PM
I score 9% but I wish I could see what the egyptian reference scored.. Is there a spreadsheet for that? I know for a fact I have non egyptian blood in me which may have diluted the SSA or the SSA was introduced later on once my ancestors moved to egypt
If the SSA was introduced after your ancestors came to Egypt you wouldn't be exempt from it. I haven't seen a breakdown of the Egyptian reference populations. The number is probably lower in the Sinai, in the far north, and amongst Copts. If you have significant non-Egyptian blood that could also be a factor. What is your ancestry?
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 10:28 PM
What about Iraqi Sunnis and Shias? How much is their SSA component?
Dunno but probably around 4%, perhaps higher in the south, where the Zanj slaves used to live.
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 10:29 PM
4.34%, according to this spreadsheet.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml
I'd add SEA to that. It's an average though, some parts of Turkey have more and some, less.
Abeja
01-15-2015, 10:35 PM
Dunno but probably around 4%, perhaps higher in the south, where the Zanj slaves used to live.
There are no official data?
What a pity that semites mixed in ancient time. They created great civilizations. Imagine if Sumerians and Egyptians were still pure without admixing with foreigners. Probably their civilization would have lasted longer or even until today. Such a pity.
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 10:36 PM
There are no official data?
It's just a pity that semites mixed in ancient time. They created great civilizations. Imagine if Sumerians and Egyptians were still pure without admixing with foreigners. Probably their civilization would have lasted longer or even until today. Such a pity.
Not that I've seen.
Sumerians weren't Semites and no Caucasian people remain unmixed from the Neolithic.
Vasconcelos
01-15-2015, 10:39 PM
Not that I've seen.
Sumerians weren't Semites and no Caucasian people remain unmixed from the Neolithic.
Looking at these ancestral components, how would you define a Caucasian?
Voskos
01-15-2015, 10:39 PM
There are no official data?
What a pity that semites mixed in ancient time. They created great civilizations. Imagine if Sumerians and Egyptians were still pure without admixing with foreigners. Probably their civilization would have lasted longer or even until today. Such a pity.
Genetic purity is not necessarily a good thing though. Being pure is basically equivalent to being inbred.
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 10:40 PM
Looking at these ancestral components, how would you define a Caucasian?
However you want, Vasconcelos, it's an almost totally arbitrary term. People who look white or off white?
Abeja
01-15-2015, 10:41 PM
Not that I've seen.
Sumerians weren't Semites and no Caucasian people remain unmixed from the Neolithic.
I know Sumerians weren't semite, I just put them in the same group since they interacted only with Semites. What I'm saying is that generally speaking, Semites downgraded themeselves and most of them just completely lost their identity. Nowadays only Jews and Assyrians escaped this fate.
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 10:43 PM
I know Sumerians weren't semite, I just put them in the same group since they interacted only with Semites. What I'm saying is that generally speaking, Semites downgraded themeselves and most of them just completely lost their identity. Nowadays only Jews and Assyrians escaped this fate.
Neither Jews nor Assyrians are pure, though Assyrians come close. The population with the highest ENF percentage appears to be Yemenite Jews, followed by Samaritans; other high-scorers do include Assyrians, Saudis, Iraqi Jews, and suchlike. European Jews don't even come close.
Abeja
01-15-2015, 10:45 PM
Genetic purity is not necessarily a good thing though. Being pure is basically equivalent to being inbred.
That is a general misconception. Every ethnic group in the beginning was inbred. This is how you start a nation, there's no other way. Once your nation have bred in great number, then this is the moment where genetic variation may occur in order to preserve the genetic health of your people, without denaturalizing the main feauter of the ethnic group.
Abeja
01-15-2015, 10:49 PM
Neither Jews nor Assyrians are pure, though Assyrians come close. The population with the highest ENF percentage appears to be Yemenite Jews, followed by Samaritans; other high-scorers do include Assyrians, Saudis, Iraqi Jews, and suchlike. European Jews don't even come close.
ENF?
Vasconcelos
01-15-2015, 10:52 PM
ENF?
Early Neolithic Farmer
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 10:53 PM
ENF?
Early Neolithic Farmer; Near East. Farmer blood. First civilization blood.
Scores above 80%:
1) Yemenite Jews, 88.55%
2) Samaritans, 87.50%
3) Saudi, 85.51%
4) Lebanese Christian, 83.15%
5) Iraqi Jewish, 82.72%
6) Bedouin, 81.63%
7) Assyrian, 80.25%
8) Druze, 80.02%
9) Iranian Jewish, 79.77%
Abeja
01-15-2015, 10:56 PM
Early Neolithic Farmer; Near East. Farmer blood. First civilization blood.
Scores above 80%:
1) Yemenite Jews, 88.55%
2) Samaritans, 87.50%
3) Saudi, 85.51%
4) Lebanese Christian, 83.15%
5) Iraqi Jewish, 82.72%
6) Bedouin, 81.63%
7) Assyrian, 80.25%
8) Druze, 80.02%
9) Iranian Jewish, 79.77%
So basically ENF is what we associate with "pure" semites? In this case Samaritans are a better example since Yemenite Jews have some significant SSA admixture.
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 11:11 PM
So basically ENF is what we associate with "pure" semites? In this case Samaritans are a better example since Yemenite Jews have some significant SSA admixture.
Why does it matter what their non-ENF admixture is? Yemenites have the most of it.
Anyhow, ENF =/= Semites.
Longbowman, if that's your on your avatar, then you're a good looking guy
also this is the first interesting thread on this forum, I was always asking myself that, as I regard many MENA people as being caucasian, a bit darker caucasian obviously
oblivion
01-15-2015, 11:35 PM
If the SSA was introduced after your ancestors came to Egypt you wouldn't be exempt from it. I haven't seen a breakdown of the Egyptian reference populations. The number is probably lower in the Sinai, in the far north, and amongst Copts. If you have significant non-Egyptian blood that could also be a factor. What is your ancestry?
Well ghassanid (arabian) and levantine
Longbowman
01-15-2015, 11:44 PM
Well ghassanid (arabian) and levantine
How much?
Vasconcelos
01-15-2015, 11:50 PM
However you want, Vasconcelos, it's an almost totally arbitrary term. People who look white or off white?
Yes I know. Even Loschbour (http://blobsvc.wort.lu/picture/bbea9ba55a019d57bf5c0fec43eaf82a/519/291/wortv3/2334d8c5a0f081505ce8892d640c37f1965fa43c) look a bit wierd.
ButlerKing
01-15-2015, 11:50 PM
4.34%, according to this spreadsheet.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml
4.34% has to be the lowest average Mongoloid admixture I've ever seen unless you read it wrong. Unless it was studied in a province where there wasn't much Turkic migrants. Turkey is so confusing it shows higher Mongoloid admixture in some province where Turkic migrants and Turkic was historically longer than other parts like Instanbul for example.
The first study I saw with Turks showed them with a average 6.8%, others had shown them with 5.62% , 7.2%, the highest was in Aydin 11.8%
Besides average means nothing and is extremely bias depending at times. Mongoloid admixture in Turks is very diverse in variations. I've seen studies which shows Egyptian and Morrocans are only 7-9% Sub-saharan even 5%. I believe Egyptians with highest Negroid admixture are in the south like in the same case of Morocco.
For examples if 2 out of 20 samples happens to be 4.23% than that's the average but that doesn't change the fact there are other Turks with 15-25% Mongoloid admixture
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=37103&d=1378454779
Turkish people are even more genetically diverse than Mongolians. As can be seen here East Asian/Mongoloid admixture is like 9% to 25%????
http://oi60.tinypic.com/2myu6u0.jpg
Demhat
01-15-2015, 11:58 PM
North Africans (especially Moroccans and Egyptians) usually score 15-25%; Gulf Arabs 10-15%; other MENAs below 10%, being virtually non-existent in Turkey and the Caucasus.
15-25% North Africa, 7-15% Arabians, 3-9% Levant, 0-2%, Iran-Anatolia-South Caucasus
Demhat
01-16-2015, 12:01 AM
@Some of the Mongoloid is Amerindian like and gets absorbed by ANE. This is why most population score lower East Eurasian.
Longbowman
01-16-2015, 12:03 AM
4.34% has to be the lowest average Mongoloid admixture I've ever seen unless you read it wrong. Unless it was studied in a province where there wasn't much Turkic migrants. Turkey is so confusing it shows higher Mongoloid admixture in some province where Turkic migrants and Turkic was historically longer than other parts like Instanbul for example.
The first study I saw with Turks showed them with a average 6.8%, others had shown them with 5.62% , 7.2%, the highest was in Aydin 11.8%
Besides average means nothing and is extremely bias depending at times. Mongoloid admixture in Turks is very diverse in variations. I've seen studies which shows Egyptian and Morrocans are only 7-9% Sub-saharan even 5%. I believe Egyptians with highest Negroid admixture are in the south like in the same case of Morocco.
For examples if 2 out of 20 samples happens to be 4.23% than that's the average but that doesn't change the fact there are other Turks with 15-25% Mongoloid admixture
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=37103&d=1378454779
Turkish people are even more genetically diverse than Mongolians. As can be seen here East Asian/Mongoloid admixture is like 9% to 25%????
http://oi60.tinypic.com/2myu6u0.jpg
Dodecad isn't as good as Eurogenes but yes, it's an average. EEA in Istanbul will be low integers and EEA around Ankara will be in the 10s. In K8 it's subdivided into EEA and SEA, a clearly Asian component:
http://i59.tinypic.com/2po6wj8.png
which would give Turkey an average of around 7.55%, a reasonable number considering that yes, it's a country-wide average, not region specific.
In K8, EEA should be read as 'Northeast Asian' and SEA as 'Southeast Asian.' They're both clearly 'Mongoloid.'
Longbowman
01-16-2015, 12:04 AM
15-25% North Africa, 7-15% Gulf Arabs, 3-9% Levant, 0-2%, Iran-Anatolia-South Caucasus
I've already listed every single MENA population, with the precise numbers, in an earlier post. Could people please read through the thread before commenting :(
Demhat
01-16-2015, 12:06 AM
More like quadroons. However, they look different from proper mulattoes (SSA + European).
The reason why they don't look quadroon or Mulatto is because the SSA in them is very ancient. It is so ancient that it has created a stable phenotype in which their pred. Caucasian genes took the overhand, through selection.
This is not comparable to recent quadroon new world mixes in which there is nothing stabilized and no selection.
ButlerKing
01-16-2015, 12:08 AM
15-25% North Africa, 7-15% Gulf Arabs, 3-9% Levant, 0-2%, Iran-Anatolia-South Caucasus
I don't agree with this.
Most Saudi Arabian in this study shows only 5-6% Sub-saharan DNA and Egyptians 11 -19% with exception 1 sample being 25-30% Sub-saharan.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2011/01/ethioDOD2.png
Demhat
01-16-2015, 12:09 AM
Dodecad isn't as good as Eurogenes but yes, it's an average. EEA in Istanbul will be low integers and EEA around Ankara will be in the 10s. In K8 it's subdivided into EEA and SEA, a clearly Asian component:
http://i59.tinypic.com/2po6wj8.png
which would give Turkey an average of around 7.55%, a reasonable number considering that yes, it's a country-wide average, not region specific.
In K8, EEA should be read as 'Northeast Asian' and SEA as 'Southeast Asian.' They're both clearly 'Mongoloid.'
The distribution of SEA (South Eurasian) clearly speaks for an South_Centra and Southeast Asian origin. It is ANE related. And the percentage of it in modern populations matches with the frequency of ANI+ASI.
SEA is more 1/2 ANI and 1/2 ASI (Southeast Asian).
If SEA was Southeast Asian exclusively, Davidski wouldn't call it "South Eurasian".
Longbowman
01-16-2015, 12:10 AM
As I already wrote in a different thread. The distribution of SEA (South Eurasian) clearly speaks for an South_Central Asian origin. It is ANE related. And the percentage of it in modern populations matches with the frequency of ANI.
SEA is more 3/4 ANI and 1/4 ASI.
Except it doesn't, it peaks in Malays. Low SCE values.
Longbowman
01-16-2015, 12:11 AM
I don't agree with this.
Most Saudi Arabian in this study shows only 5-6% Sub-saharan DNA and Egyptians 11 -19% with exception 1 sample being 25-30% Sub-saharan.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2011/01/ethioDOD2.png
You are correct, Demhat is guessing wildly even though I have provided him with a spreadsheet of numbers.
K8 averages: Egypt, 17.71%, Saudi, 7.07%.
oblivion
01-16-2015, 12:13 AM
How much?
20%
Longbowman
01-16-2015, 12:14 AM
20%
If you're 20% non-Egyptian you can't be considered to be an ethnic Egyptian for these purposes and obviously your genetic results would be quite different from the average Egyptian.
Demhat
01-16-2015, 12:15 AM
Except it doesn't, it peaks in Malays. Low SCE values.
Yes it peaks in Malay but it s also far too high in non Southeast Asian population to be simply "Southeast Asian".
I corrected my estimation. SEA is more like 1/2 ANI and 1/2 ASI (which is basically Southeast Asian).
THis is probably the reason why Davidski called it South Eurasian and not Southeast Asian.
ButlerKing
01-16-2015, 12:16 AM
You are correct, Demhat is guessing wildly even though I have provided him with a spreadsheet of numbers.
K8 averages: Egypt, 17.71%, Saudi, 7.07%.
I've seen a Egyptian study with only 8-9% on average although there were other samples that shows them with 17-19% which was a minority ( although they still made up 1/3 of total Egyptian samples )
Longbowman
01-16-2015, 12:17 AM
Yes it peaks in Malay but it s also far too high in non Southeast Asian population to be simply "Southeast Asian".
I corrected my estimation. SEA is more like 1/2 ANI and 1/2 ASI (which is basically Southeast Asian).
THis is probably the reason why Davidski called it South Eurasian and not Southeast Asian.
You're guessing pretty wildly. As a component it reaches a peak of over 50% only in far Southeast Asians and is only noticeable to India, and then drops off almost completely. It's not strong in the northern Indian Subcontinent or anywhere that might be considered 'South-Central Asian.' It's definitively Southeast Asian.
Longbowman
01-16-2015, 12:17 AM
I've seen a Egyptian study with only 8-9% on average although there were other samples that shows them with 17-19% which was a minority ( although they still made up 1/3 of total Egyptian samples )
Well, then link it, and bear in mind I'm using the most recent data and I've seen you post that chart for at least a year.
Demhat
01-16-2015, 12:18 AM
I don't agree with this.
Most Saudi Arabian in this study shows only 5-6% Sub-saharan DNA and Egyptians 11 -19% with exception 1 sample being 25-30% Sub-saharan.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2011/01/ethioDOD2.png
And Arabia is all Saudi Arab?
We don't have any Yemenite samples, but I know for a fact that in every other calculator with Yemenite samples. The Yemenites score almost twice as much SSA as Saudis.
I am not wildly guessing, I simple took this into consideration when I made my statement of 7-15%. Saudi Arabian average per K8 is 7 %
Longbowman
01-16-2015, 12:18 AM
And Arabia is all Saudi Arab?
We don't have any Yemenite samples, but I know for a fact that in every other calculator with Yemenite samples. The Yemenites score almost twice as much SSA as Saudis.
I am not wildly guessing, I simple took this into consideration when I made my statement of 7-15%. Saudi Arabian average per K8 is 7 %
Gulf Arabs doesn't mean Kuwait, Bahrain for you?
ButlerKing
01-16-2015, 12:26 AM
Well, then link it, and bear in mind I'm using the most recent data and I've seen you post that chart for at least a year.
For example the Sub-Saharan component in Egyptian here clearly doesn't look that great. It's more in the 8 - 13% range rather than 15-25%
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png
Demhat
01-16-2015, 12:27 AM
You're guessing pretty wildly. As a component it reaches a peak of over 50% only in far Southeast Asians and is only noticeable to India, and then drops off almost completely. It's not strong in the northern Indian Subcontinent or anywhere that might be considered 'South-Central Asian.' It's definitively Southeast Asian.
South Eurasian, is ASI (Ancestral South Eurasian) of K7, have you ever seen Southeast Asian reaching 5% in Caucasus?
A statement by Davidski himself
Here's the Fst table. Keep in mind though, the East and South Eurasian clusters are probably mixed.
t's hard to say what it represents, because this test is mainly designed to distill ANE and WHG, so as to give Europeans an idea how much post-Mesolithic ancestry from outside of Europe they might have.
SEA represents a the third group related to WHG/ANE.If we had to explain this component by new designation we would need to see it as ASI, Southeast Asian and ANI admixed.
Calling South Eurasian , Southeast Asian just because it peaks nowadays there, is as correct as calling ANE Northeast Asian or ENF "Semite" because it peaks in them.
There is a reason why Davidski didn't call this component simply Southeast Asian, just like he did with East Eurasian, if it was all entirely Southeast Asian.
Longbowman
01-16-2015, 12:27 AM
For example the Sub-Saharan component in Egyptian here clearly doesn't look that great. It's more in the 8 - 13% range rather than 15-25%
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png
YDNA study? Dismissed, sorry.
Anyhow it's out of date and using way too many components. K8 is better.
ButlerKing
01-16-2015, 12:28 AM
And Arabia is all Saudi Arab?
We don't have any Yemenite samples, but I know for a fact that in every other calculator with Yemenite samples. The Yemenites score almost twice as much SSA as Saudis.
I am not wildly guessing, I simple took this into consideration when I made my statement of 7-15%. Saudi Arabian average per K8 is 7 %
The same goes for other Arabs. Look at Lazardis 2013
Demhat
01-16-2015, 12:29 AM
Gulf Arabs doesn't mean Kuwait, Bahrain for you?
Sorry than, because I have seen people using the term "Gulf Arab, for Yemenites and Omanis too. And they have significantly more SSA. I should have used Arabian instead?
Longbowman
01-16-2015, 12:30 AM
South Eurasian, is ASI (Ancestral South Eurasian) of K7, have you ever seen Southeast Asian reaching 5% in Caucasus?
A statement by Davidski himself
SEA represents a the third group related to WHG/ANE.If we had to explain this component by new designation we would need to see it as ASI and ANI admixed.
Calling South Eurasian , Southeast Asian just because it peaks nowadays there, is as correct as calling ANE Northeast Asian or ENF "Semite" because it peaks in them.
There is a reason why Davidski didn't call this component simply Southeast Asian, just like he did with East Eurasian, if it was all entirely Southeast Asian.
But ANE is supposedly NE Asian in origin, or more accurately North Asian, and whilst 'Semite' is the wrong term, ENF is indeed ME in origin, so your examples are poor here. Davidski isn't always correct.
Longbowman
01-16-2015, 12:30 AM
Sorry than, because I have seen people using the term "Gulf Arab, for Yemenites and Omanis too. And they have significantly more SSA. I should have used Arabian instead?
I would use Arabian, yes.
ButlerKing
01-16-2015, 12:30 AM
YDNA study? Dismissed, sorry.
Anyhow it's out of date and using way too many components. K8 is better.
Dude...... this is no freaking way a Y-DNA study it doesn't match their component
It's just posting the Y-DNA associated with a racial components in their autosomal DNA
Longbowman
01-16-2015, 12:30 AM
Dude...... this is no freaking way a Y-DNA study it doesn't match their component
It's just posting the Y-DNA associated with a racial components in their autosomal DNA
Read my second sentence then.
Demhat
01-16-2015, 12:38 AM
But ANE is supposedly NE Asian in origin, or more accurately North Asian, and whilst 'Semite' is the wrong term, ENF is indeed ME in origin, so your examples are poor here. Davidski isn't always correct.
The calculator is made by Davidski I doubt anyone else beside him knows best what he meant with thsi component. (SEA is a component created by him). It is not yet clear in who the ANE component originated. In fact ANE peaks in groups such as Burusho and Karitiana (Amerindians)two very distant regions. We don't have any samples from kalash but chances are high that it peaks in them (as seen by hammer et al). So were it peaks is not always the place of origin, because I doubt it originated in America.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8pm8sVcHqceiNFJMO082kxaBF5ePr4__bAK05VQRFw/edit#gid=62882571
Longbowman
01-16-2015, 12:54 AM
The calculator is made by Davidski I doubt anyone else beside him knows best what he meant with thsi component. (SEA is a component created by him). It is not yet clear in who the ANE component originated. In fact ANE peaks in groups such as Burusho and Karitiana (Amerindians)two very distant regions. We don't have any samples from kalash but chances are high that it peaks in them (as seen by hammer et al). So were it peaks is not always the place of origin, because I doubt it originated in America.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x8pm8sVcHqceiNFJMO082kxaBF5ePr4__bAK05VQRFw/edit#gid=62882571
ANE peaks in Karitiana, Burusho are a very distant third. If you're going to mention Burusho you may as well mention Selkup.
I get what you're saying but SEA is modal in Mongoloid populations. Can it really be non-Mongoloid?
oblivion
01-16-2015, 01:00 AM
If you're 20% non-Egyptian you can't be considered to be an ethnic Egyptian for these purposes and obviously your genetic results would be quite different from the average Egyptian.
Oh I didnt think 20% was significant.. Ok
Longbowman
01-16-2015, 01:02 AM
Oh I didnt think 20% was significant.. Ok
In terms of identity, the choice is yours, and I think everyone would accept you as Egyptian, but not for genetic runs.
I, too, am impure, so you're in good company :thumb001:
Demhat
01-16-2015, 01:38 AM
I get what you're saying but SEA is modal in Mongoloid populations. Can it really be non-Mongoloid?
SEA is neither Mongoloid nor Caucasoid it is proto South Eurasian. and contributed into different populations. Thats what I mean.
Longbowman
01-16-2015, 01:46 AM
SEA is neither Mongoloid nor Caucasoid it is proto South Eurasian. and contributed into different populations. Thats what I mean.
Still extra-Anatolian and 'eastern;' recent, in Turkey. Elevated anyhow.
oblivion
08-25-2015, 05:58 PM
From K8:
Berber: 24.01%
Morocco: 20.44%
Tunisian: 19.67%
Egypt: 17.71%
Bedouin: 10.42%
Palestinian: 8.55%
Jordan: 8.08%
Saudi: 7.07%
Syria: 5.78%
Lebanese Muslim 4.02%
Druze: 2.53%
Iran: 2.43%
Samaritan: 2.42%
Lebanese Christian 1.86%
Iranian Jewish: 1.30%
Iraqi Jewish: 1.14%
Azeri: 0.71%
Georgian Jewish: 0.71%
Assyrian: 0.36%
Kurd: 0.29%
Turkey: 0.28%
Lezgin 0.06%
Kumyk: 0.05%
Armenia: 0.03%
Adyghei: 0.01%
Abkhazia: 0%
Balkar: 0%
Chechen: 0%
Georgian: 0%
Laz: 0%
Kabardin: 0%
North Ossetian: 0%
Ossetian: 0%
Tabassaran: 0%
What calculator is this? Is it on gedmatch? I want to compare my own results...
Nurzat
08-25-2015, 06:10 PM
North Africans (especially Moroccans and Egyptians) usually score 15-25%; Gulf Arabs 10-15%; other MENAs below 10%, being virtually non-existent in Turkey and the Caucasus.
xD so there's no point in making such a distinction anymore (SSA vs Maghreb)
Longbowman
08-26-2015, 12:19 PM
What calculator is this? Is it on gedmatch? I want to compare my own results...
It isn't. It's only available on the Eurogenes blog and you need to get in contact with the owners to run your data (they will require a donation, but you will get several runs and PCA charts).
Maleficent
08-28-2015, 10:01 PM
More like quadroons. However, they look different from proper mulattoes (SSA + European).
"Mulatto" means SSA + Caucasoid.
"Proper mulatto" means 1st generation mix, unlike say some new worlder groups may be half ssa half caucasian, but their entire family is mixed since many generations ago.
Lightman
08-29-2015, 09:07 AM
"Mulatto" means SSA + Caucasoid.
"Proper mulatto" means 1st generation mix, unlike say some new worlder groups may be half ssa half caucasian, but their entire family is mixed since many generations ago.
Doesn't matter since niggers and semites are the same subhuman creatures of the demiurge.
From K8:
Berber: 24.01%
Morocco: 20.44%
Tunisian: 19.67%
Egypt: 17.71%
Bedouin: 10.42%
Palestinian: 8.55%
Jordan: 8.08%
Saudi: 7.07%
Syria: 5.78%
Lebanese Muslim 4.02%
Druze: 2.53%
Iran: 2.43%
Samaritan: 2.42%
Lebanese Christian 1.86%
Iranian Jewish: 1.30%
Iraqi Jewish: 1.14%
Azeri: 0.71%
Georgian Jewish: 0.71%
Assyrian: 0.36%
Kurd: 0.29%
Interesting and OWD Gilgamesh said it's %3,5.
TheForeigner
01-27-2018, 02:10 PM
Coon claimed in the Races of Europe that there iis a Veddoid/Australoid substratum in southern Arabian population. Is there any evidence(genetic, archaeological, antropologial etc) for this?
CrazyCatLady
01-27-2018, 02:54 PM
Coon claimed in the Races of Europe that there iis a Veddoid/Australoid substratum in southern Arabian population. Is there any evidence(genetic, archaeological, antropologial etc) for this?
Yes. Veddoid types are found in some Arabian populations and there's genetic influence from Veddoid types in Southern Arabia.
But Veddoid isnt the same as Australoid. It is a mixed group. ASI, proxy for Veddoid, is basically a mix of Australoid, Caucasoid and Mongoloid.
Talking about SSA in Middle Easterners I would say the follow:
Turks, Armenians, Georgians, North Caucasians, Assyrians and Druze have virtually none.
Lebanese, Syrians, Mizrahi Jews, Iranians and Kurds negligible admixture.
Palestinians and ethnic Saudis around 7-8%.
North Africans around 20% depending on the individual. Some can be less than 5% SSA and others much more than 30%.
Hadouken
01-27-2018, 05:47 PM
Yes. Veddoid types are found in some Arabian populations and there's genetic influence from Veddoid types in Southern Arabia.
But Veddoid isnt the same as Australoid. It is a mixed group. ASI, proxy for Veddoid, is basically a mix of Australoid, Caucasoid and Mongoloid.
Talking about SSA in Middle Easterners I would say the follow:
Turks, Armenians, Georgians, North Caucasians, Assyrians and Druze have virtually none.
Lebanese, Syrians, Mizrahi Jews, Iranians and Kurds negligible admixture.
Palestinians and ethnic Saudis around 7-8%.
North Africans around 20% depending on the individual. Some can be less than 5% SSA and others much more than 30%.
yes very well put :) you are pretty good at expressing yourself and explaining things :D
but not fully correct . Kurds have virtually none ssa too . I have around 1.5% and am an outlier in that . generally it is basically 0% . in my case I think one of the reasons is that I was a big tupac and nas fan when I was a teen
also ASI in some calculators is straight up australoid because the caucasoid elements are taken out and the reference group are people like onge . on eurasia k9 asi that is the case for example . the ASE component is even more so based on australoid groups
@Foreigner . there is a yemeni member whose results might interest you
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?228296-MY-FTDNA&p=4804565&viewfull=1#post4804565
Gangrel
01-27-2018, 10:07 PM
yes very well put :) you are pretty good at expressing yourself and explaining things :D
but not fully correct . Kurds have virtually none ssa too . I have around 1.5% and am an outlier in that . generally it is basically 0% . in my case I think one of the reasons is that I was a big tupac and nas fan when I was a teen
also ASI in some calculators is straight up australoid because the caucasoid elements are taken out and the reference group are people like onge . on eurasia k9 asi that is the case for example . the ASE component is even more so based on australoid groups
@Foreigner . there is a yemeni member whose results might interest you
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?228296-MY-FTDNA&p=4804565&viewfull=1#post4804565
Hadouken's GANGSTAmatch
Hoodgenes K13
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Compton +50% Cali @ 0.000000
TheForeigner
02-05-2018, 06:42 PM
What is the SSA admixture level for Riff, Khabyles and Chaoui Berbers who are supposed to be purer and look whiter than other Berbers?
Kamal900
02-05-2018, 07:01 PM
Interesting and OWD Gilgamesh said it's %3,5.
It's my results, asshat. Not the average Palestinian results.
Mingle
02-06-2018, 06:14 PM
North Africans (especially Moroccans and Egyptians) usually score 15-25%
Around half of that is East African iirc.
Mingle
02-06-2018, 06:17 PM
There were 23andme tests of Ethiopians on this site. They were like 20-25% ME. I'll try and find them now.
Pushkin didn't really care about his ancestry, there were no such things as "black" and "white" in Russia. In today's America he would have probably boasted about his "minority" ancestry.:rolleyes:
This person is an Ethiopian and 50-60% West Eurasian on GEDmatch calcs: http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=47868
Duffmannn
09-15-2019, 07:21 AM
Saudi Arabia national football team
https://cdn1.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/1200x800/public/images/methode/2019/01/03/1f335d46-0f15-11e9-85d9-37db0e8cf837_image_hires_152715.jpg?itok=xM3du9Rs&v=1546500443
Morocco national football team
https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/moroccan-team.jpg
Tunisia national football team
https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/ap_portugal_tunisia_soccer_100246855.jpg?w=1000&h=600&crop=1
This team has the single light haired MENA football player I have ever known:
https://e0.365dm.com/17/12/2048x1152/tunisia-world-cup-2018-russia-qualification_4171573.jpg
Egypt national football team
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2ba47dee3f440bbdace5020d09e8cade
Algeria
http://www.lingofacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/algeria-soccer-team-1280x640.jpg
Syria
https://sana.sy/en/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Syrian-national-football-team.jpg
Jordan
https://www.albawaba.com/sites/default/files/styles/de2e_standard/public/im/Sport/jordan_squad_2016.jpg?itok=l-ydT6Sq
Iraq
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Iraq_men%27s_football_team_2016_Olympics.jpg
Iran
https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/OZW82RkYqqjuY8yiwOWFZd179kQ=/1484x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/N2JIZBSCKA7QDA4IMMUH4RFEOA.jpg
Lebanon
https://blogbaladi.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Lebanons-players-celebrate-after-winning-an-Asian-Cup-2019-1024x651-750x420.jpg
Yemen
https://amp.thenational.ae/image/policy:1.813813:1547569788/UAE-SOCCER-AFC-ASIAN-CUP-2019.jpg?f=default&q=1.0&w=1024&$p$f$q$w=3edb01f
Tigranes
09-15-2019, 08:55 AM
North Africans (especially Moroccans and Egyptians) usually score 15-25%; Gulf Arabs 10-15%; other MENAs below 10%, being virtually non-existent in Turkey and the Caucasus.
https://i.ibb.co/DkyYjrw/3alo5i.jpg
PaleoEuropean
09-15-2019, 09:10 AM
@Carmen
Most Gulf Arabs trace their lineage to Yemenites who interbred with Axum. Himyarites colonized Axum and many were enslaved Axum also colonized a tiny portion of Yemen.
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