K8 All Populations Spreadsheet

[Longbowman]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml

Now with all other populations added and organised geographically. Maps to come.

[Ades]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml

Now with all other populations added and organised geographically. Maps to come.

Thanks for your hard work.

Can't wait to see more colored K8 maps!!! They are really cool!!!

[Longbowman]

Thanks for your hard work.

Can't wait to see more colored K8 maps!!! They are really cool!!!

As with Europe, some places (China, Central Asia, the Levant) have excellent population data and some places (Africa, the Americas) have terrible population references so the maps might see a bit of an imbalance. However, for components such as ANE I don't see a problem. SSA might be hard to depict.

[Longbowman]

First map: ANE

http://i60.tinypic.com/17z588.jpg

[Sideritis]

Not to bother, why I miss Albanian from your list?

[Longbowman]

Ok so I need to work on my presentation abilities. Can anyone link me a better world map? Anyhow this should give a rough idea of ANE:

http://i58.tinypic.com/30vdpjd.jpg

[Longbowman]

Not to bother, why I miss Albanian from your list?

We have Kosovar but there's no Albanian reference sample. I wish there were, but I don't make the reference samples :shrug:

[Pjeter Pan]

We have Kosovar but there's no Albanian reference sample. I wish there were, but I don't make the reference samples :shrug:

you wanna loan me 20 buck? ;)

nevermind thats another test

[Longbowman]

Found a better map for the SEA and onwards.

[Black Wolf]

Awesome work Long! :D

[Jackson]

Brilliant thanks.

Interesting how everyone in my family bar my Grandmother appears to have above the ANE average, and that my mother has the highest (1% above average) despite also having the highest Near Eastern, above the average by 2.3%. I guess it makes sense because in other calculators my mother has significantly above average West Asian (although not so much in the case of her sister), and ANE is quite high in West Asia.

[Black Wolf]

Ok so I need to work on my presentation abilities. Can anyone link me a better world map? Anyhow this should give a rough idea of ANE:

http://i58.tinypic.com/30vdpjd.jpg

I am happy to see maps as well as they give a good visual of the components throughout the globe. The ANE component is starting to become the component that I am most interested in as well.

[Longbowman]

SEA. I found a better map and included all populations, I'll redo ANE at the end. Colour to come. Certain Jewish populations not included.

http://i60.tinypic.com/2vnexww.png

[Black Wolf]

Brilliant thanks.

Interesting how everyone in my family bar my Grandmother appears to have above the ANE average, and that my mother has the highest (1% above average) despite also having the highest Near Eastern, above the average by 2.3%. I guess it makes sense because in other calculators my mother has significantly above average West Asian (although not so much in the case of her sister), and ANE is quite high in West Asia.

My ANE score is 14.3% which is similar to that of which many people from Britain get. Some have a bit less (Southeast English) and some a bit more (North Scottish) from Britain it seems.

[Longbowman]

SEA, colour:

http://i59.tinypic.com/2po6wj8.png

[Longbowman]

Near east:

http://i61.tinypic.com/5zll3m.png

[Alessio]

Where do you guys get your k=8 results ?

[Longbowman]

Where do you guys get your k=8 results ?

Donate $20 to Eurogenes and mail Davidski your 23andme/FTDNA results.

[Alessio]

Donate $20 to Eurogenes and mail Davidski your 23andme/FTDNA results.

:icon_ask:

Maybe I will

[Longbowman]

:icon_ask:

Maybe I will

Do it mate. I did it and now I have a 14 inch cock and I won £3 million in the lottery.

[Ades]

Where do you guys get your k=8 results ?

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2014/12/crowdfunding-for-2015-new-test.html

EDIT: Longbowman already answered it, sorry.

[Ades]

It's a great test though, anyone with the chance to take it should do so.

[Alessio]

It's a great test though, anyone with the chance to take it should do so.

Explain in short why you think everyone should do it''

[Longbowman]

East Asian. Peaks in Hezhen and Oroqen in NE China/Kamchatka. Also proves I definitely have some kind of Asian ancestry, I have like twice any European average.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2mg6n13.png

[Longbowman]

EEA colour:

http://i57.tinypic.com/magoxd.png

[John Smith]

Good stuff, bro.. :)

[Longbowman]

Will definitely redo the ANE one when I have time.

[Longbowman]

This is, for me, the most interesting component: the European one, WHG:

http://i58.tinypic.com/2m7zy8l.png

[Ades]

Explain in short why you think everyone should do it''

Simply because it is the most accurate way of knowing your ancient ancestry to date. No other test rivals this one when it comes to WHG, EEF/ENF, ANE, and the other ancient populations that form modern mankind.

Since you want it in a short way:

"For it is a away to learn of the past, so we may reach for a better future" :clap2::tongue

[Alessio]

He should have just made it public.


Simply because it is the most accurate way of knowing your ancient ancestry to date. No other test rivals this one when it comes to WHG, EEF/ENF, ANE, and the other ancient populations that form modern mankind.

Since you want it in a short way:

"For it is a away to learn of the past, so we may reach for a better futere" :clap2::tongue

[Alessio]

艾丝 伊吾 西 开 伊 艾儿

王牌


East Asian. Peaks in Hezhen and Oroqen in NE China/Kamchatka. Also proves I definitely have some kind of Asian ancestry, I have like twice any European average.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2mg6n13.png

[Ades]

He should have just made it public.

He plans on making a public version, and send it to GEDmatch, in a few months.

This version is probably more accurate though, since he looks at the raw datas personally.

He hasn't done it for free right away because he needs to raise funds, as he explained on the link to his blog I posted.

It's not very expensive, to be fair.

[Alessio]

Sure, I'm doing this one too why not.


He plans on making a public version, and send it to GEDmatch, in a few months.

This version is probably more accurate though, since he looks at the raw datas personally.

He hasn't done it for free right away because he needs to raise funds, as he explained on the link to his blog I posted.

It's not very expensive, to be fair.

[Longbowman]

ANE:

http://i57.tinypic.com/27wvbcn.png

[Graham]

ANE has an R1a Ydna look to it.

[Longbowman]

When done with a bit more care, ANE is more interesting:

http://i60.tinypic.com/vobofk.png

[Dani Cutie]

Wut is ANE? central asian?

[Longbowman]

Wut is ANE? central asian?

Ancient North Eurasian.

[Longbowman]

Well, SEA was dull. It only scores highly in Polynesia, Austronesia, and some in India (proving that ancient Veddoid/Andamanese etc. Australoid link?) Not even the Malays have it.

http://i59.tinypic.com/11m82ed.png

[Longbowman]

http://i57.tinypic.com/2zitrua.png

[Longbowman]

Pygmy:

http://i61.tinypic.com/2ym876q.png

[Longbowman]

I'd like to see some more SSA sample populations.

http://i58.tinypic.com/34gu5hy.png

[Longbowman]

Central greek samples are still very weird. Is only Greek_Thessaly the mainland and central_greek the islands except for south aegean?

Ask Davidski. I'm treating it as Pelopponese.

[Longbowman]

In Dodecad central_greek had come out as northern if not more so than greek_thessaly albeit there were other groupings for greeks as well. Doesn't he get the samples from there?

You'd really have to ask him :shrug:

It's not a particularly odd result anyway.

[Longbowman]

My point is they are not even between thessaly and regular greek but even less ANE than the later. In Dodecad (assuming the ANE-WHG-ENF components are roughly) it was the opposite.

Eurogenes is generally more accurate in my opinion, and northerners being more ANE/WHG makes sense anyway.

[Longbowman]

What about cretans and dodecanese (being under 'greek'), Sikeliot's vaunted Sicilians-in-Greece, being more northern than his hated full-on-baltic Peloponnesians? (being under central_greek) That's what I meant when I mentioned the dodecad greek groupings.

Draw your own conclusions, or email Davidski. The Greek cluster may not include islanders for all I know. You could check the original datasheet and see if there are any obvious individual non-Peloponnesians there?

[wvwvw]

What about cretans and dodecanese (being under 'greek'), Sikeliot's vaunted Sicilians-in-Greece, being more northern than his hated full-on-baltic Peloponnesians? (being under central_greek) That's what I meant when I mentioned the dodecad greek groupings.

When Cypriots have 8% ANE and the average mainland Greek is 10% how much do you the expect the Greek islanders to have?

[Longbowman]

SSA. Note high SSA amongst South Indians, similar to high Oceanian. Says something about the pre-Indo-Aryan Indians.

http://i61.tinypic.com/fjkwt0.png

[SwampThing26]

Pygmy:

http://i61.tinypic.com/2ym876q.png

Pretty random 1% scores in a couple of places on the map.

[Longbowman]

Finally, SSA colour:

http://i60.tinypic.com/2prxtdy.png

[Longbowman]

Pretty random 1% scores in a couple of places on the map.

Not really, most North Eurasian populations seem to score between 0.5 and 1%, and the other 1%s are just over 0.5% in areas that score around 0.3-0.6%.

[Graham]

I've seen modern art in museums not as good looking as those maps. :P

[wvwvw]

SSA. Note high SSA amongst South Indians, similar to high Oceanian. Says something about the pre-Indo-Aryan Indians.

http://i61.tinypic.com/fjkwt0.png
What? I only see 5% SSA in South Indians, while I see Berbers scoring a whooping 20% :confused:

[Longbowman]

What? I only see 5% SSA in South Indians, while I see Berbers scoring a whooping 20% :confused:

5% is still pretty high, no? Berbers get 24%.

[Voskos]

What? I only see 5% SSA in South Indians, while I see Berbers scoring a whooping 20% :confused:

Το SSA ειναι subsaharan African.

[Longbowman]

Indian Ocean slave trade?

2% in the Burusho too though, I would say more ancient?

[Highlands]

Near east:

http://i61.tinypic.com/5zll3m.png

Interesting but aren't farmers in central and South Asia mostly Caucasus-Gedrosia in contrast to those in SE Europe which are largely East Med/West Med.

[Longbowman]

Interesting but aren't farmers in central and South Asia mostly Caucasus-Gedrosia in contrast to those in SE Europe which are largely East Med/West Med.

Those distinctions are far more recent and hard to articulate though.

[Black Wolf]

Interesting but aren't farmers in central and South Asia mostly Caucasus-Gedrosia in contrast to those in SE Europe which are largely East Med/West Med.

Those components from other ADMIXTURE calculators such as ''Caucasus'', ''Gedrosia'', ''East Med'' and ''West Med'' are not actually real. They are made up of the ancient components that are represented in this K8 test such as Near_Eastern and WHG. The Near _Eastern component from this K8 most likely represents true Neolithic farmer ancestry that spread far and wide after the Neolithic peoples of the Near East migrated out with agriculture.

[Highlands]

Those distinctions are far more recent and hard to articulate though.

My understanding is that italian/Balkan Neolithic components are an extension of Cypriots/Levantine-like Neolithic farmers whereas those in central and Southern Asia are an extension of Caucasus-like farmers. They score only ~5 Levantine East med and non existent Red Sea but high Caucasus-Gedrosia.

[Longbowman]

My understanding is that italian/Balkan Neolithic components are an extension of Cypriots/Levantine-like Neolithic farmers whereas those in central and Southern Asia are an extension of Caucasus-like farmers. They score only ~5 Levantine East med and non existent Red Sea but high Caucasus-Gedrosia.

But those populations were genetically pretty much the same.

[Highlands]

Those components from other ADMIXTURE calculators such as ''Caucasus'', ''Gedrosia'', ''East Med'' and ''West Med'' are not actually real. They are made up of the ancient components that are represented in this K8 test such as Near_Eastern and WHG. The Near _Eastern component from this K8 most likely represents true Neolithic farmer ancestry that spread far and wide after the Neolithic peoples of the Near East migrated out with agriculture.

I've seen various tests in which west Asian, East med and Red Sea are all classified as "Neolithic". So if southern Asians are getting 45 it must be due to Caucasus-Gedrosia component.

[Highlands]

But those populations were genetically pretty much the same.

Hm I don't know. I'm not feeling this test. It's not very specific.

[alfieb]

http://i61.tinypic.com/5zll3m.png

Well, there you go. If you're Mediterranean of any flavor, you're over 50% Middle Eastern by Polako's metrics.

(By some stroke of luck, even Scandinavians have higher Middle Eastern numbers than Poles do.)

[Black Wolf]

My understanding is that italian/Balkan Neolithic components are an extension of Cypriots/Levantine-like Neolithic farmers whereas those in central and Southern Asia are an extension of Caucasus-like farmers. They score only ~5 Levantine East med and non existent Red Sea but high Caucasus-Gedrosia.

All of those farmers from Neolithic farmers from Europe to India have the same origin in the Near Eastern neolithic. They all relate back to the Near_Eastern Neolithic component seen in this K8 test.

[Highlands]

All of those farmers from Neolithic farmers from Europe to India have the same origin in the Near Eastern neolithic. They all relate back to the Near_Eastern Neolithic component seen in this K8 test.

They originated in NE but that doesn't mean they were the same genetically. Those in Europe are clearly different to those in South Asia but they are still Neolthic farmers.

[Longbowman]

Well, there you go. If you're Mediterranean of any flavor, you're over 50% Middle Eastern by Polako's metrics.

(By some stroke of luck, even Scandinavians have higher Middle Eastern numbers than Poles do.)

It's not 'luck,' it's history.


Hm I don't know. I'm not feeling this test. It's not very specific.

Well, exactly. It trades being specific for being accurate, and bases its components on ancient population results. There's no substantive difference between Neolithic populations.

[Longbowman]

They originated in NE but that doesn't mean they were the same genetically. Those in Europe are clearly different to those in South Asia but they are still Neolthic farmers.

No, this is wishful thinking. What differentiates South Asians and Macedonians is the non-Neolithic ancestry, ie WHG and ANE versus SEA and ANE.

[Black Wolf]

I've seen various tests in which west Asian, East med and Red Sea are all classified as "Neolithic". So if southern Asians are getting 45 it must be due to Caucasus-Gedrosia component.

Like I said those other components from other ADMIXTURE calculators are not really real like these ones from the K8 test. They are made up of various combinations of the ancient components from this K8 test. The Near_Eastern component in this test basically links people from Europe all the way over to India together in ways. It has an origin most likely among the very first Neolithic farmers of the Near East. It shows that all people from Europe through the Near East (highest amounts) all the way over to India share a lot of the same genes that came from this early Near Eastern farming population(s).

[Black Wolf]

No, this is wishful thinking. What differentiates South Asians and Macedonians is the non-Neolithic ancestry, ie WHG and ANE versus SEA and ANE.

Correct.

[Highlands]

Like Is aid those other components from other ADMIXTURE calculators are not really real like these ones from the K8 test. They are made up of various combinations of the ancient components from this K8 test. The Near_Eastern component in this test basically links people from Europe all the way over to India together in ways. It has an origin most likely among the very first Neolithic farmers of the Near East. It shows that all people from Europe through the Near East (highest amounts) all the way over to India share a lot of the same genes that came from this early Near Eastern farming population(s).
No they don't. You think Cypriot shares same Levantine components with Northern Indian? There is seriously an agenda here so I will slowly leave the discussion.

[Black Wolf]

They originated in NE but that doesn't mean they were the same genetically. Those in Europe are clearly different to those in South Asia but they are still Neolthic farmers.

Well the Near_Eastern component comes from the same source in all of these populations. What makes them different is their types and levels of pre-Neolithic ancestral components. In the case of Europe it is mainly WHG and in the case of South Asia it is some sort of South/East Eurasian component.

[Black Wolf]

No they don't. You think Cypriot shares same Levantine components with Northern Indian? There is seriously an agenda here so I will slowly leave the discussion.

Yes they do. There is no agenda it is a fact.

[Willem]

So, were these maps made manually? Any way to automate it and produce it automatically (heat maps)?

[Longbowman]

No they don't. You think Cypriot shares same Levantine components with Northern Indian? There is seriously an agenda here so I will slowly leave the discussion.

All Europeans do :shrug:

No agenda, what differentiates us is mainly WHG.

[Longbowman]

So, were these maps made manually? Any way to automate it and produce it automatically (heat maps)?

I made them manually. Use my spreadsheet and make a heat map if you want.

[Black Wolf]

All Europeans do :shrug:

No agenda, what differentiates us is mainly WHG.

Some people unfortunately seem to have a hard time of accepting the truth that Europeans share a significant amount of their genes with Near Eastern and South Asian peoples in the form of Neolithic ancestry.

[Graham]

Polako is following where the other modern test are heading. With Ancient North Eurasians, Middle East Farmers & Hunter gatherers.

http://hms.harvard.edu/news/new-branch-added-european-family-tree

Dodecad and all that are behind the times.

[Black Wolf]

Polako is following where the other modern test are heading. With Ancient North Eurasians, Middle East Farmers & Hunter gatherers.

http://hms.harvard.edu/news/new-branch-added-european-family-tree

Dodecad and all that are behind the times.

Aye.

[wvwvw]

Some people unfortunately seem to have a hard time of accepting the truth that Europeans share a significant amount of their genes with Near Eastern and South Asian peoples in the form of Neolithic ancestry.

So race is a social construct after all :P

[alfieb]

No they don't. You think Cypriot shares same Levantine components with Northern Indian? There is seriously an agenda here so I will slowly leave the discussion.

Agreed. This sort of thing is why I avoid prehistory, there's way too much speculation, and when agendas come into play, one needs to ask themselves 'why'.

[wvwvw]

5% is still pretty high, no? Berbers get 24%.

I figured since Southern Indians look black they'd have a lot more of the Subsaharan SSA than Berbers.

[Jackson]

Agreed. This sort of thing is why I avoid prehistory, there's way too much speculation, and when agendas come into play, one needs to ask themselves 'why'.

It's hardly an agenda when distinct Neolithic cultural groupings make their way into Europe, these people are later found to be genetically very distinct from the previous inhabitants, and that modern Europeans are a combination of these two groups, with a later group (or groups rather) that carried a significant chunk of north-central Asian admixture into much of the continent. The genetic changes between Mesolithic-Neolithic and Late Neolithic - Bronze Age are quite conspicuous, especially now that we have a timeline in Hungary for example that cuts through these periods.

The majority of the Near Eastern component has been in Europe for millenia, there are no modern European groups who lack it entirely and the European cultures we are all familiar with were developed by groups for whom this component made up a significant part of their ancestry. One could argue that Europe in a political and cultural sense would not exist without it.

[alfieb]

The majority of the Near Eastern component has been in Europe for millenia
How long must it be in Europe before it ceases to be Near Eastern? Obviously, humans migrated to Europe from Asia. The 50% "Near Eastern" in a Frenchman is not the same as the 90% "Near Eastern" in a Gulf Arab.

[wvwvw]

How long must it be in Europe before it ceases to be Near Eastern? Obviously, humans migrated to Europe from Asia. The 50% "Near Eastern" in a Frenchman is not the same as the 90% "Near Eastern" in a Gulf Arab.

But the French also score 60% WHG plus ANE when Gulf Arabs score virtually 0% in these two components.

Afganis for example who also score a lot more ANE plus some WGH look more European than Gulf Arabs but since they also score quite a lot of South Asian they don't really look European.

[Jackson]

How long must it be in Europe before it ceases to be Near Eastern? Obviously, humans migrated to Europe from Asia. The 50% "Near Eastern" in a Frenchman is not the same as the 90% "Near Eastern" in a Gulf Arab.

Well it's the same component, this is just a matter of labels.

[Black Wolf]

Well it's the same component, this is just a matter of labels.

True...Genetically Europeans (Especially Southern Europeans) and Near Eastern peoples share a lot of the same genes. It is more so political history, religion and linguistics that separate them.

[Longbowman]

How long must it be in Europe before it ceases to be Near Eastern? Obviously, humans migrated to Europe from Asia. The 50% "Near Eastern" in a Frenchman is not the same as the 90% "Near Eastern" in a Gulf Arab.

Don't let it affect your identity. You and I may well have a similar share of Near Eastern blood. I think your problems can be addressed by a simple renaming: as per my ancestry bar:

WHG = Mesolithic [admixture in Europeans]
Near East = Neolithic [admixture in Europeans]

If you can't distinguish that, then you can't say an immigrant isn't European or even ethnic European if he chooses to define himself that way. Near East has been in Europe thousands of years, WHG, tens of thousands.

[Black Wolf]

Don't let it affect your identity. You and I may well have a similar share of Near Eastern blood. I think your problems can be addressed by a simple renaming: as per my ancestry bar:

WHG = Mesolithic [admixture in Europeans]
Near East = Neolithic [admixture in Europeans]

If you can't distinguish that, then you can't say an immigrant isn't European or even ethnic European if he chooses to define himself that way. Near East has been in Europe thousands of years, WHG, tens of thousands.

Nah you should definitely let it affect your identity. :P

[Longbowman]

Nah you should definitely let it affect your identity. :P

Barbarian scum. Bow before Rome and Sumer! I am the heir to the founders of Jericho and Catal Huyuk, you tree-hugging fire-worshipper.

[Jackson]

True...Genetically Europeans (Especially Southern Europeans) and Near Eastern peoples share a lot of the same genes. It is more so political history, religion and linguistics that separate them.

True, i basically just meant that because these three components are the basis for all European populations, there's no point in people getting agitated over how much of each component their country has.

[wvwvw]

How long must it be in Europe before it ceases to be Near Eastern? Obviously, humans migrated to Europe from Asia. The 50% "Near Eastern" in a Frenchman is not the same as the 90% "Near Eastern" in a Gulf Arab.


This is, for me, the most interesting component: the European one, WHG:

http://i58.tinypic.com/2m7zy8l.png

What distinguishes Sicilians, Greeks to non-European Neolithics is basically their WHG

[alfieb]

Don't let it affect your identity. You and I may well have a similar share of Near Eastern blood. I think your problems can be addressed by a simple renaming: as per my ancestry bar:

WHG = Mesolithic [admixture in Europeans]
Near East = Neolithic [admixture in Europeans]

If you can't distinguish that, then you can't say an immigrant isn't European or even ethnic European if he chooses to define himself that way. Near East has been in Europe thousands of years, WHG, tens of thousands.

Makes no difference to my identity. I think European-ness is horseshit. I'm Mediterranean.

[wvwvw]

No they don't. You think Cypriot shares same Levantine components with Northern Indian? There is seriously an agenda here so I will slowly leave the discussion.

Cypriots lack the South Asian and Gedrosia scores of Indians but otherwise yes they share the same Neolithic component with Indians

[Longbowman]

Makes no difference to my identity. I think European-ness is horseshit. I'm Mediterranean.

If you like. The Near East component is simply a different genetic grouping to WHG. You can call what you want.

[Black Wolf]

Barbarian scum. Bow before Rome and Sumer! I am the heir to the founders of Jericho and Catal Huyuk, you tree-hugging fire-worshipper.

Alas my Y-DNA is still Neolithic me lord.

[Longbowman]

Alas my Y-DNA is still Neolithic me lord.

Peasant neolithic though.

[Black Wolf]

Peasant neolithic though.

True built for hard labour in the salt mines and fields of our E-V13 overlords.

[Longbowman]

True built for hard labour in the salt mines and fields of our E-V13 overlords.

Built to conquer barbarians.

[Highlands]

Cypriots lack the South Asian and Gedrosia scores of Indians but otherwise yes they share the same Neolithic component with Indians

I don't think I'm being understood:
- Yes they are all Neolithic but some have more Caucasus-gedrosia and others Mediterranean. (Varying degrees). I get same Neolithic score as my Afghan friend BUT mine is Mediterranean (west Med/East med) while hers is more West Asian. Her McDonald painting also differs to mine. She has small segment of MENA while half of my painting is MENA
- so according to these maps, South asians score high Neolithic as well as highest ancestral North Eurasian. Or maybe this Neolithic is Caucasus-like and overlaps with ANE?
- half Afghan individual (without South Asian) and Swedish will basically produce Southern european? Even if the Neolithic in afghans is different to ours? Just like WHG is split into Atlantic and Baltic. The product will have almost no Mediterranean component/affinity.


I feel like Southern European heritage is being mocked here - we are simply "Neolithic" to some, just so Jewish people can pass as European.

[Ades]

So race is a social construct after all :P

Kind of, but not 100%.

Different proportions of the same ancestral populations, plus isolation and selection, show us results that still somewhat agree with the traditional divisions of mankind.

[Longbowman]

I don't think I'm being understood:
- Yes they are all Neolithic but some have more Caucasus-gedrosia and others Mediterranean. (Varying degrees). I get same Neolithic score as my Afghan friend BUT mine is Mediterranean (west Med/East med) while hers is more West Asian. Her McDonald painting also differs to mine. She has small segment of MENA while half of my painting is MENA
- so according to these maps, South asians score high Neolithic as well as highest ancestral North Eurasian. Or maybe this Neolithic is Caucasus-like and overlaps with ANE?
- half Afghan individual (without South Asian) and Swedish will basically produce Southern european? Even if the Neolithic in afghans is different to ours? Just like WHG is split into Atlantic and Baltic. The product will have almost no Mediterranean component/affinity.


I feel like Southern European heritage is being mocked here - we are simply "Neolithic" to some, just so Jewish people can pass as European.

Yes, the Jews did it. Why is being more Neolithic ('swarthier') than Northerners 'mocking' you? You're trying to attack the facts because you don't like them. Yes there will be (minor) differences in western and eastern and whatever Neolithic admixture but as a whole Neolithic blood is one genetic grouping and WHG is another and your Neolithic component is the same 'race' as the Afghan stuff and very distant to the WHG. Is that really a surprise? Is it really novel? Get over yourself.

On the old runs you're talking about European Jews still score with Southern Europeans.

[Black Wolf]

I don't think I'm being understood:
- Yes they are all Neolithic but some have more Caucasus-gedrosia and others Mediterranean. (Varying degrees). I get same Neolithic score as my Afghan friend BUT mine is Mediterranean (west Med/East med) while hers is more West Asian. Her McDonald painting also differs to mine. She has small segment of MENA while half of my painting is MENA
- so according to these maps, South asians score high Neolithic as well as highest ancestral North Eurasian. Or maybe this Neolithic is Caucasus-like and overlaps with ANE?
- half Afghan individual (without South Asian) and Swedish will basically produce Southern european? Even if the Neolithic in afghans is different to ours? Just like WHG is split into Atlantic and Baltic. The product will have almost no Mediterranean component/affinity.


I feel like Southern European heritage is being mocked here - we are simply "Neolithic" to some, just so Jewish people can pass as European.

You are not being misunderstood you are just failing to understand the fact that the components from other ADMIXTURE calculators/tests do not really mean that much anymore because we now have these ancient components such as Near_Eastern, WHG and ANE. Those components from other ADMIXTURE calculators/tests such as Eurogenes K13 and K15 are made up of the Near_Eastern, WHG and ANE ancient components. For example the West_Asian/Caucasus component from K13 or K15 is a component that is made up of a certain mix of mainly Near_Eastern and some ANE alleles and that is what makes it distinctly ''West_Asian''. As you can see if you look at the spreadsheets the populations of the Caucasus in the K8 test are dominated by the Near_Eastern component and they also have a good chunk of ANE and that is what makes the ''West_Asian'' component in the other calculators/tests. The same goes for other components such as ''North European'' which is made up of a certain combination of WHG, Near_Eastern and ANE alleles. So you see these ancient components from the K8 test are the true real components in people's genomes. The other one's such as ''West_Asian'', ''North_European'', ''Mediterranean'' etc are not so much as they are made up of different frequencies of the ancient components. No one is mocking anything here. I am not trying to be rude I am just pointing out the reality of what is now known about autosomal genetics.

[Ades]

You are not being misunderstood you are just failing to understand the fact that the components from other ADMIXTURE calculators/tests do not really mean that much anymore because we now have these ancient components such as Near_Eastern, WHG and ANE. Those components from other ADMIXTURE calculators/tests such as Eurogenes K13 and K15 are made up of the Near_Eastern, WHG and ANE ancient components. For example the West_Asian/Caucasus component from K13 or K15 is a component that is made up of a certain mix of mainly Near_Eastern and some ANE alleles and that is what make it distinctly ''West_Asian''. As you can see if you look at the spreadsheets the populations of the Caucasus in the K8 test are dominated by the Near_Eastern component and they also have a good chunk of ANE and that is what makes the ''West_Asian'' component in the other calculators/tests. The same goes for other components such as ''North European'' which is amde up of a certain combination of WHG, Near_Eastern and ANE alleles. So you see these ancient components from the K8 test are the true real components in people's genomes. The other one's such as ''West_Asian'', ''North_European'', ''Mediterranean'' etc are not so much as they are made up of different frequencies of the ancient components. No one is mocking anything here. I am not trying to be rude I am just pointing out the reality of what is now known about autosomal genetics.

That is correct.

We shouldn't completely discard these components from other tests/calculators though, as they are still the result of regional drift/selection. They are very useful for genealogy and "recent evolution", if we can call it so.

[wvwvw]

EEA colour:

http://i57.tinypic.com/magoxd.png

What does EEA stand for?

[Black Wolf]

What does EEA stand for?

East Eurasian.

[Highlands]

You are not being misunderstood you are just failing to understand the fact that the components from other ADMIXTURE calculators/tests do not really mean that much anymore because we now have these ancient components such as Near_Eastern, WHG and ANE. Those components from other ADMIXTURE calculators/tests such as Eurogenes K13 and K15 are made up of the Near_Eastern, WHG and ANE ancient components. For example the West_Asian/Caucasus component from K13 or K15 is a component that is made up of a certain mix of mainly Near_Eastern and some ANE alleles and that is what makes it distinctly ''West_Asian''. As you can see if you look at the spreadsheets the populations of the Caucasus in the K8 test are dominated by the Near_Eastern component and they also have a good chunk of ANE and that is what makes the ''West_Asian'' component in the other calculators/tests. The same goes for other components such as ''North European'' which is made up of a certain combination of WHG, Near_Eastern and ANE alleles. So you see these ancient components from the K8 test are the true real components in people's genomes. The other one's such as ''West_Asian'', ''North_European'', ''Mediterranean'' etc are not so much as they are made up of different frequencies of the ancient components. No one is mocking anything here. I am not trying to be rude I am just pointing out the reality of what is now known about autosomal genetics.

As I have said before, K8 is oversimplified.

[Black Wolf]

As I have said before, K8 is oversimplified.

It is reality.

[Maguzanci]

What??!! North Africans have around 13-20% SSA on average!!?? :shocked: Especially with Berbers 24% !!:faint2: :eek2: If they have that much SSA, why do many of them don't look that mixed??!!

Do these SSA look like modern day SSA or do they look more ancient humans?

Also Mongols are not pure Mongoloids??!! :scared::shocked::icon_eek: They seem to have 12% Caucasoid!!!

[Gaston]

HOLY SHEIT!!! North Africans have around 17-20% negro (I mean SSA) on average!!! :shocked::speechless-smiley-0Especially with Berbers 24% !!:faint2: :eek2: If they have that much negroid, why do many of them don't look that mixed??!!

Do these SSA look like modern day nignog or do they look more ancient humans?


It's been known for a while now. The reason is the mixture happened a long time ago (before modern ethnicities, in the Holocene), leaving time for selection to occur in a mediterranean direction. We also don't know what these African parent populations looked like because they don't exist anymore, although they were very likely dark-skinned and tropically adapted.

It's just like ANE admixture in Native Americans, South Asians, Caucasians and Europeans (to name a few): all these populations look quite distinct and nobody would have guessed a few months ago that they were related in the relatively recent past.




Also Mongols are not pure Mongoloids??!! :scared::shocked::icon_eek: They seem to have 12% Caucasoid!!!

It's old news again. :thumb001: But you shouldn't assign modern racial grouping to components of an ADMIXTURE analysis, it's much more complex than that. For instance, we know that paleolithic Eurasians were different from modern Eurasians (wether "caucasoid" or "mongoloid") so oftentimes you can't assign a "race" to a component. Not to mention the same component can actually results in different races (for instance East Eurasians range from "mongoloid", to less "mongoloid" Ainu types and Southeast Asian types, to Negritos etc...).

[Maguzanci]

It's been known for a while now. The reason is the mixture happened a long time ago (before modern ethnicities, in the Holocene), leaving time for selection to occur in a mediterranean direction. We also don't know what these African parent populations looked like because they don't exist anymore, although they were very likely dark-skinned and tropically adapted.

It's just like ANE admixture in Native Americans, South Asians, Caucasians and Europeans (to name a few): all these populations look quite distinct and nobody would have guessed a few months ago that they were related in the relatively recent past.




It's old news again. :thumb001: But you shouldn't assign modern racial grouping to components of an ADMIXTURE analysis, it's much more complex than that. For instance, we know that paleolithic Eurasians were different from modern Eurasians (wether "caucasoid" or "mongoloid") so oftentimes you can't assign a "race" to a component. Not to mention the same component can actually results in different races (for instance East Eurasians range from "mongoloid", to less "mongoloid" Ainu types and Southeast Asian types, to Negritos etc...).

So in this case you cannot really assign a race to the SSA found in modern day North Africans then? What is the lowest SSA autosomal DNA you have seen in North Africans?
Does K8 estimate admixture that goes back to the Paleolithic? How old are these admixtures from K8?

[Gaston]

So in this case you cannot really assign a race to the SSA found in modern day North Africans then?

If tropical African is a "race", than maybe you have your answer. But Africans (non-Eurasians) are actually very diverse and constitute several "races" (a Malian Mande and a Kenyan Maasai are not of the same "race") and we don't know how these ancient Africans looked like. not to mention NA's SSA ancestral populations are diverse too according to genetics.

[Maguzanci]

If tropical African is a "race", than maybe you have your answer. But Africans (non-Eurasians) are actually very diverse and constitute several "races" (a Malian Mande and a Kenyan Maasai are not of the same "race") and we don't know how these ancient Africans looked like. not to mention NA's SSA ancestral populations are diverse too according to genetics.

Are there any North Africans without any SSA admixture?

[Gaston]

Are there any North Africans without any SSA admixture?

No, and they ("pure" Eurasians) probably never existed in North Africa since modern populations exist (Holocene).

[Maguzanci]

No, and they probably never existed since modern populations exist (Holocene).

Just curious, what is the lowest SSA autosomal DNA you have seen in North Africans?

[Gaston]

What is the lowest SSA autosomal DNA you have seen in North Africans?
Does K8 estimate admixture that goes back to the Paleolithic? How old are these admixtures from K8?

The lowest is around 12-13%, maybe less, in some Egyptians. But Egypt is known for having received a lot of foreign admixture. Even today, there are many Near Easterners from the Levant, Arabia, Armenia and the Caucasus who identify as Egyptian and have children with Egyptians. More native Egyptians would be like the rest of North Africa (~17-24% African).

Berbers are more homogenous across the board, from Morocco to Libya.


K8 has the advantage (that all the other and older ADMIXTURE tests didn't have) of having actual ancient genomes recently tested (Mal'ta-Buret' for ANE, Loschbour for WHG, Stuttgart for Early European Farmers...). So yes, for some components, it goes back to the paleolithic (the rest is mesolithic, neolithic or unknown).

[Maguzanci]

If tropical African is a "race", than maybe you have your answer. But Africans (non-Eurasians) are actually very diverse and constitute several "races" (a Malian Mande and a Kenyan Maasai are not of the same "race") and we don't know how these ancient Africans looked like. not to mention NA's SSA ancestral populations are diverse too according to genetics.

I think I start to understand now. So the SSA found in NA does not mean that NA partly descend from populations that resemble modern day ancient Yoruba or other modern day SSA. This is because we don't know what these ancient African ancestors of NA look like? It just mean that North Africans and SSA share a common distant ancestor?

[Gaston]

I think I start to understand now. So the SSA found in NA does not mean that NA partly descend from populations that resemble modern day ancient Yoruba or other modern day SSA. This is because we don't know what these ancient African ancestors of NA look like? It just mean that North Africans and SSA share a common distant ancestor?

Yes, we don't know yet until we get ancient DNA (aDNA) and anthropological measures, like the recent findings with ancient Eurasian DNA. But this may never happen because most of Africa has conditions and climates that aren't great for preserving bodies and DNA. Maybe there is still hope because this recent paper stated that it was still possible to recover not too degraded DNA: Nubian medieval dna (http://www.researchgate.net/publication/275031861_No_longer_the_1_Optimizing_ancient_DNA_y ield_from_Saharan_African_samples).

But still, you can see some clear affinities: Egyptians have most of their African affinity with Eastern Africa (whether the Afroasiatics from the Horn or Nilo-Saharan), while Berbers share equal affinities with Eastern Africans and West/Central Africans.

[Maguzanci]

interesting.... so we don't know what these ancient african ancestral populations look like but that does not mean they look like modern day west africans or east africans?

[Maguzanci]

Yes, we don't know yet until we get ancient DNA (aDNA) and anthropological measures, like the recent findings with ancient Eurasian DNA. But this may never happen because most of Africa has conditions and climates that aren't great for preserving bodies and DNA. Maybe there is still hope because this recent paper stated that it was still possible to recover not too degraded DNA: Nubian medieval dna (http://www.researchgate.net/publication/275031861_No_longer_the_1_Optimizing_ancient_DNA_y ield_from_Saharan_African_samples).

But still, you can see some clear affinities: Egyptians have most of their African affinity with Eastern Africa (whether the Afroasiatics from the Horn or Nilo-Saharan), while Berbers share equal affinities with Eastern Africans and West/Central Africans.

just curious, does the northwest african component contain some ssa? how much percentage are there?
what about the east african component? are they ssa mixed with eurasian? how much percents are the ssa and the eurasian?

[Maguzanci]

can anyone tel me does the northwest african component contain some ssa? how much percentage hidden ssa are there out of total component?
what about the east african component? are they ssa mixed with eurasian? how much percents are the ssa and the eurasian?

[Longbowman]

can anyone tel me does the northwest african component contain some ssa? how much percentage hidden ssa are there out of total component?
what about the east african component? are they ssa mixed with eurasian? how much percents are the ssa and the eurasian?

There is no Northwest African or East African component on this test.

Normally they would contain about 25% and 50% SSA.

[Kriptc06]

When done with a bit more care, ANE is more interesting:

http://i60.tinypic.com/vobofk.png

what calculator is this? how can I get my results?

[Longbowman]

what calculator is this? how can I get my results?

Eurogenes K8, go to the Eurogenes blog. Idk if Davidski still runs it.

[Scandal]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JVGdg2UsN3jYWgaoxAZu-QsAmuCaq3kT7FvqSXwUsAA/pubhtml

Now with all other populations added and organised geographically. Maps to come.

Why isn't eurogenes k8 available on gedmatch.com? I wanted to compare my result to those avarages.

[Longbowman]

Why isn't eurogenes k8 available on gedmatch.com? I wanted to compare my result to those avarages.

It's one of the ones you have to pay for.