Khevsurs

[Shepherd]

Khevsureti/Khevsuria (Georgian: ხევსურეთი, a land of valleys) is a historical-ethnographic region in eastern Georgia. They are the branch of Kartvelian (Georgian) people located along both the northern (Pirikita khevsureti, Georgian: პირიქითა ხევსურეთი) and southern (Piraketa khevsureti, Georgian: პირაქეთა ხევსურეთი) slopes of the Great Caucasus Mountains.

http://image.geotorrents.ge/images/rlcvgvkj96r788sge74x.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5tivfqy.jpg
http://www.magticom.ge/magazine/1999-3/mshvidobit-2.jpg
http://www.kaukasus-kaleidoscope.com/images/khevsurs/khevsur-7opt.jpg
http://z3.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p470436/282550_239108346124003_4553323_n.jpg

[Black Wolf]

They apparently have a high frequency of Y-DNA haplogroup J2a as well. :)

[Hadouken]

cool

[Shepherd]

Medieval Georgia was never able to establish a typical feudal system. The civil code of the community remained based on the ancient traditions and values. Children of the noble families and lords were brought up by the families of peasants (გლეხი, glekhi) who were known for their wisdom and human qualities. These people introduced youth to their culture, history, traditions and all aspects of human knowledge and experiences based on Christian orthodox values. Later prominent writer Ilia Chavchavadze expressed three Georgian treasures: language, land and belief.

http://z3.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p470042/b07867204d82.jpg
http://z3.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p470036/208622_198428560196472_5951620_n.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/boPOaeb.jpg

[Shepherd]

Coolest thing about these people to me is that their way of life was historically always very democratic

[Demhat]

They are mostly Med tyes (Robust Pontid, Eastmed, Irano_Pontid), Dinaric types (Mtebid), and Alpines.

As I thought and already said, there isn't that much difference between ethnic Georgians from East and West.

There is some difference to Western Georgians sure (West Georgians having slightly higher frequency of light hair). But if you actually listen to some members on this board you might get the impression West Georgians are like Scandos while East Georgians like Tamils.

[Hadouken]

I like their costumes and it seems they are very sport active and close to nature

[Shepherd]

Historically, Georgian highlander communities enjoyed a degree of autonomy. Khevsurs never accepted local lords; they elected their leaders or khevisberi (ხევისბერი, elder) and council of elders and submitted themselves only to the monarch. They were exceptional warriors with traditional Georgian qualities of courage, openness and honesty, fraternity, independence and love of freedom, who were often promoted as royal bodyguards. Kings regarded them as reliable guardians of the Caucasus Mountains and the northern border of the kingdom. In the battles Khevsurs wore flags adorned with crosses and considered themselves permanent members of the army of the sacred flags and guardians of Georgian Kings.

http://i.imgur.com/yY9VdNr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PpqhQto.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eXLyUOF.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NPsrGTn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XqrR32Q.jpg

[Shepherd]

They are mostly Med tyes (Pontid, Eastmed, Irano_Med), Dinaric types (Mtebid), and Alpines.

As I thought and already said, there isn't that much difference between ethnic Georgians from East and West.

There is some difference to Western Georgians sure (West Georgians having highr frequency of light hair). But if you actually listen to some members on this board you might get the impression West Georgians are like Scandos while East Georgians like Tamils lol.
The difference is greatly exaggerated mostly because of the amount of ethnic minorities in eastern Georgia who have been there for a long time. Parts of Kakheti are like 50% Azeri or Armenian iirc

[Demhat]

They apparently have a high frequency of Y-DNA haplogroup J2a as well. :)

Up to 70% I have heard (second biggest frequency after Ingush).

Khevsuris

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTL-0HVkGHU

They appear pred. robust Pontid. with some Mtebid admixture.

[Hadouken]

Up to 70% I have heard (second biggest frequency after Ingush).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTL-0HVkGHU

They appear pred. Pontid.

are these Ingush or Georgians ?

[Demhat]

are these Ingush or Georgians ?

Georgians, Khevuris

[Black Wolf]

The difference is greatly exaggerated mostly because of the amount of ethnic minorities in eastern Georgia who have been there for a long time. Parts of Kakheti are like 50% Azeri or Armenian iirc

It makes one wonder what the traditional societal organization of the Khevsurs was? Were they clan based and tribal people?

[Demhat]

The difference is greatly exaggerated mostly because of the amount of ethnic minorities in eastern Georgia who have been there for a long time. Parts of Kakheti are like 50% Azeri or Armenian iirc

I know thats what I also wrote. East Georgia has the highest percentage of Azeris, South/Southeast has Armenians and some Kurds. The North has Ossetians and Northwest has Abkhazians. I only count ethnic Kartvelian groups as Georgians.

[Demhat]

Interesting fact about the costumes of the Khevsuris they seem to differ from the mainstream Kavkaz clothes and remind me more to that of Indo Europeans.

[Shepherd]

There has been a hypothesis, coming from the locals and descriptions by Russian serviceman and ethnographer Arnold Zisserman who spent 25 years (1842–67) during Russian expansion in the Caucasus, that these Georgian highlanders were descendants of the last Crusaders because their folk culture – the material, social, and religious practices – greatly resembled those of the Crusaders.

http://i.imgur.com/9xpETkK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CCXycX4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cTxdZdX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lAz52zP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JmMatEc.jpg

[Shepherd]

I know thats what I also wrote. East Georgia has the highest percentage of Azeris, South/Southeast has Armenians and some Kurds. I only count ethnic Kartvelian groups as Georgians.
Gypsies also

[Shepherd]

It makes one wonder what the traditional societal organization of the Khevsurs was? Were they clan based and tribal people?




Medieval Georgia was never able to establish a typical feudal system. The civil code of the community remained based on the ancient traditions and values. Children of the noble families and lords were brought up by the families of peasants (გლეხი, glekhi) who were known for their wisdom and human qualities. These people introduced youth to their culture, history, traditions and all aspects of human knowledge and experiences based on Christian orthodox values. Later prominent writer Ilia Chavchavadze expressed three Georgian treasures: language, land and belief.

[Black Wolf]

Villagers.

[Demhat]

I doubt that they are descend of Crusaders, but their clothes do appear more Indo European than traditional Kavkaz imo.

[Shepherd]

Although large scale settlements are unlikely, some form of settlement of Crusaders in these areas is possible, as they are mentioned in several manuscripts of the time as participants of several battles against the Muslims in Georgia (100 "Frankish" Crusaders participated in King David's army in the Battle of Didgori), and the fact that some passed through here after the fall of the Holy Land.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Khevsur_clansmen,_ca._1910.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Khevsurian_girl.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/M._Tilke%2C_%27Khevsurs%27%2C_1910.jpeg
http://cs410619.vk.me/v410619819/65b1/N3TlzDizymc.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7298/1050/1600/khevsurian.jpg
http://www.jentour.com.ge/files/qartuli-erovnulisamosi_daaqsesuarebi/Georgia-Khevsurian%20chokha%204.jpg

[Shepherd]

Battle of Didgori that I mentioned earlier

http://i.imgur.com/PCvFBTL.png

[Anglojew]

An Assyrid element. They look like ancient near easterners.

[Demhat]

An Assyrid element. They look like ancient near easterners.
I disagree
I don't see any "Assyrid" (Armenid with Arabid influx) element in them. They look pred. Robust Med, Alpine and Dinaric imo.

[Shepherd]

An Assyrid element. They look like ancient near easterners.

theres no sw asian influence so i doubt they can be assyrid

i don't physically see it either

[Anglojew]

I disagree
I don't see any "Assyrid" (Armenid with Arabid influx) element in them. They look pred. Robust Med, Alpine and Dinaric imo.

I see it clearly.

http://i.imgur.com/5tivfqy.jpg

He looks like he's come straight out of ancient Assyria:

http://socialstudiesrms6second.pbworks.com/f/sargon-bust.jpg

[Demhat]

I see it clearly.

http://i.imgur.com/5tivfqy.jpg

He looks like he's come straight out of ancient Assyria:

http://socialstudiesrms6second.pbworks.com/f/sargon-bust.jpg

That guy is a clear Dinaric (Mtebid).

A light skinned Assyroid (Armenid+some Arabid) type can produce a similar look to Dinarid.

Also it is not possible to tell from this ancient figure if it resembles him.

The Assyrian figure does not even look Assyrid imo, but Med (Iranid?).

You have to know the type they call "Assyroid" is Armenid+ some Arabid and not every Assyrian was Assyroid. And to be honest beside the beard I don't see the similarity. The Georgian dude has a hawkish nose. The Assyrian statue has a straight nose (atypical for Assyroid).



On the left image the guy on front. Assyroids
http://www.zindamagazine.com/html/archives/2002/10.21.02/arizona.jpghttp://www.chudesa.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/KOstow.jpghttp://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Images_Egypt/Assyrian_soldier.jpg

[interes]

They are mostly Med tyes (Robust Pontid, Eastmed, Irano_Pontid), Dinaric types (Mtebid), and Alpines.

As I thought and already said, there isn't that much difference between ethnic Georgians from East and West.

There is some difference to Western Georgians sure (West Georgians having slightly higher frequency of light hair). But if you actually listen to some members on this board you might get the impression West Georgians are like Scandos while East Georgians like Tamils.

Khevsurians are north east georgians not est.

west georgians have much light skin , but they look east georgians

[Shepherd]

"Khevsurians first are mentioned in the 10th-century manuscripts. In 1745 they were described by Vakhushti Bagrationi in his work “Description of the Kingdom of Georgia”.
Anthropologically Khevsurians have slim, east Georgian type of face, due to harsh living conditions in mountain area many of them are thin. Khevsurians generally have light colored eyes and hair color is ranging from blonde to brown."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/4/43/20140301145150%21Khevsur_clansmen%2C_ca._1910.JPG
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=43538&d=1390142159

[interes]

"Khevsurians first are mentioned in the 10th-century manuscripts. In 1745 they were described by Vakhushti Bagrationi in his work “Description of the Kingdom of Georgia”.
Anthropologically Khevsurians have slim, east Georgian type of face, due to harsh living conditions in mountain area many of them are thin. Khevsurians generally have light colored eyes and hair color is ranging from blonde to brown."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/4/43/20140301145150%21Khevsur_clansmen%2C_ca._1910.JPG
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=43538&d=1390142159

Some khevsur have very slavic and some very Iranid types

[Shepherd]

Some khevsur have very slavic and some very Iranid types

I don't see any Iranid, maybe the CM element along with Mtebid/Dinarid makes it look pseudo Iranid to you but even then I don't see the resemblance

[interes]

I don't see any Iranid, maybe the CM element along with Mtebid/Dinarid makes it look pseudo Iranid to you but even then I don't see the resemblance

Kolelishvili have khevsurian blood bro

[interes]

They are khevsurians but most of khevsurs look more southern balkan

https://fbcdn-photos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-0/29001_443203899081313_1530122301_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjo iYiJ9&oh=a6b52806b8d2c7007b59d9b475fdfcb4&oe=556C4070&__gda__=1429504974_daa6eb8107a8c64dffc86c18c5a7d89 1

[Black Wolf]

There has been a hypothesis, coming from the locals and descriptions by Russian serviceman and ethnographer Arnold Zisserman who spent 25 years (1842–67) during Russian expansion in the Caucasus, that these Georgian highlanders were descendants of the last Crusaders because their folk culture – the material, social, and religious practices – greatly resembled those of the Crusaders.

http://i.imgur.com/9xpETkK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CCXycX4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cTxdZdX.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lAz52zP.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/JmMatEc.jpg

They are not descendants of Crusaders. Most if not all of their ancestors have been in the Caucasus since pre-historic times.

[interes]

They are not descendants of Crusaders. Most if not all of their ancestors have been in the Caucasus since pre-historic times.
They look more checehns or ingush people than georgians .

But khevsurians are 100% georgians

[Wild North]

The folk costumes of the Khevsurs, seems to be more similar to those weared in Central and Eastern Europe. Not the typical caucasian cherkesska.

[klarji]

They look more checehns or ingush people than georgians .

But khevsurians are 100% georgians

Khevsurs look like Eastern Georgians

They look different from Chechens and Ingushs

ps Georgians that wear "Talavari" are not all Khevsurs

I see here a lot of Georgians of non-Khevsurian origion who wear only "talavari" but are not Khevsurians.

Khevsurian "Talavari" is original Georgian costume that is why Georgians wear it often

[klarji]

I see it clearly.

http://i.imgur.com/5tivfqy.jpg


This boy is Mtiulian and looks like Mtiulian

Though We - Khevsurians, Mtiulians, Gudamakarians, Mokhevians, Pshavians, Tushians - are very close to each other by our origin, genetic, culture, tradition, history and anthropology but we are also different.

Mtiulians are known as bears because they are tall and Khevsurians are not tall

But we these six tribes are very close
We are one and I don't like when it said Khevsurs are Chechens or Mokhevians are Ossetians and other idiot thing

[klarji]

I doubt that they are descend of Crusaders, but their clothes do appear more Indo European than traditional Kavkaz imo.

They are one of the Georgian tribes.
Their closest relatives are Pshavians.
All neighbours of Georgians want to take different Georgian tribes. Khevsurs are Chechens, Meskhs are Armenians and blia blia blia

[Wild North]

ps Georgians that wear "Talavari" are not all Khevsurs

I see here a lot of Georgians of non-Khevsurian origion who wear only "talavari" but are not Khevsurians.

Khevsurian "Talavari" is original Georgian costume that is why Georgians wear it often

So these folk costumes are called "Talavari" ?


Btw, is there a common Caucasian identity ?

[klarji]

So these folk costumes are called "Talavari" ?

We call Khevsurian man costume "Talavari"
How I am reading now in google, the Khevsurian woman costume is also called "Talavari"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lwwcJvwtLU



Btw, is there a common Caucasian identity ?

Caucasians are more nationalists then have Caucasian identity. Yes, we say we are Caucasians but national identity is the main.
There are also difference between Caucasians. The main part of Caucasians dont consider Armenians and Azerbaijanians to be Caucasians. Its said they have not Caucasian culture. There are also Caucasian languages speaking Caucasians and non-Caucasian languages speaking Caucasians. Ossetian language belongs to the Iranic languages, Karachay-Balkarians, Kumyks speak Turkic languages and they have also Turkic identity. So many Pan-Caucasians dont consider non-Caucasian languages speaking peoples living in the Caucasus as real native Caucasians. There are also a lot of conflicts in the Caucasus so many Caucasians dont like each other.
Peoples that speak South Caucasian or Kartvelian languages have no relatives in the Caucasus (our languages are not related to the Northern Caucasian languages) and we have no relatives outside of the Caucasus too so we have our own identity. We consider ourselves to have our own world different from the North Caucasians (except those Kartvelian tribes who live in the North - Pirikita Khevsurs, Tushians, Mokhevians).

[Demhat]

You can seperate the Caucasus roughly into three.

North, West and South. North and West (Georgia) are generally much closer to each other, culturally (dances etc) and linguistically (mostly part of the same language family).

South Caucasus is a different thing. They are pred. Armenians and Azerbaijanis with different languages. In the North you have the Ossetians who are descend of the ancient Alans and some Turkic speaking tribes which are yet more akine to Ossetians when it comes to genetics.

Just because someone speaks a language of the "Caucasic" language family it doesn't make him more native than others. We still don't know what languages were spoken in the Caucasus just 2000 years ago. The Cimmerians are reported by various sources to have been living there very early on.
The only reason why the Caucasic languages are designated as "Caucasian" is because there are no known relatives outside of the Caucasus. So it is much more complicated than that.

[klarji]

Just because someone speaks a language of the "Caucasic" language family it doesn't make him more native than others. We still don't know what languages were spoken in the Caucasus just 2000 years ago.

I dont know English so I dont know how explain but look for example Svan language and proto-Kart-Zanian language divided into Svan and proto-Kart-Zanian in the 3 millenium BC. This division had to be in the Caucasus. So are other native Caucasian languages - Abkhazo-Circassian, Nakho-Dagestanian.

[Proto-Shaman]

Caucasians are like "linguistic paragroups". They are the cousins of Eurasiatic languages. No need to "indo-europeanize" everything around the globe. Indo-Europan is not even a language family. And btw. "Kartli" is suffixed with a Turkic expression, '-li' means "of a nation or place".

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Indo-Europan is not even a language family.

No? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

Stop with this turkish bullshit (if you don't have inferiority complex).

[Proto-Shaman]

No? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

Stop with this turkish bullshit (if you don't have inferiority complex).

European scholars: Indo-Europan is not a language family.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

European scholars: Indo-Europan is not a language family.

Are you blind? It is wikipedia.

"The Indo-European languages are a language family of several hundred related languages and dialects." - wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

Again, stop with Turkish bullshits.

[Root]

Thanks God that North Caucasus is not full of non-Caucasic alien trash

[Root]

You can seperate the Caucasus roughly into three.

North, West and South. North and West (Georgia) are generally much closer to each other, culturally (dances etc) and linguistically (mostly part of the same language family).

South Caucasus is a different thing. They are pred. Armenians and Azerbaijanis with different languages. In the North you have the Ossetians who are descend of the ancient Alans and some Turkic speaking tribes which are yet more akine to Ossetians when it comes to genetics.

Just because someone speaks a language of the "Caucasic" language family it doesn't make him more native than others. We still don't know what languages were spoken in the Caucasus just 2000 years ago. The Cimmerians are reported by various sources to have been living there very early on.
The only reason why the Caucasic languages are designated as "Caucasian" is because there are no known relatives outside of the Caucasus. So it is much more complicated than that.





Caucasic languages are part of Dene-Caucasian family and they are native to the place where they live unlike the other groups such as IE and Turkic

[Proto-Shaman]

Are you blind? It is wikipedia.

"The Indo-European languages are a language family of several hundred related languages and dialects." - wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

Again, stop with Turkish bullshits.

wikipedia ≠ science

[Vlatko Vukovic]

wikipedia ≠ science

Wikipedia = science. In wikipedia are proven informations. You can spread your Turkish propaganda without wikipedia, but facts from wiki can destroy you :)

[Proto-Shaman]

Wikipedia = science. In wikipedia are proven informations. You can spread your Turkish propaganda without wikipedia, but facts from wiki can destroy you :)
Wikipedia is exhibiting systemic bias, presenting a mixture of "truths, half truths, and some falsehoods," and, in controversial topics, being subject to manipulation and spin. source Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia):)

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Wikipedia is exhibiting systemic bias, presenting a mixture of "truths, half truths, and some falsehoods," and, in controversial topics, being subject to manipulation and spin. source Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia):)

Yeah. Real sources are Turkish pages. Pages from Anatolian inferior complexed people (Kazakh people, Kipchaks like you with them and others), mongoloid Turks who want to claim that Europe is Turkish :picard1:

Sadly. Give us little science. We don't learn in schools that Turks created Europe hahahaha :D

[Proto-Shaman]

Yeah. Real sources are Turkish pages. Pages from Anatolian inferior complexed people (Kazakh people, Kipchaks like you with them and others), mongoloid Turks who want to claim that Europe is Turkish :picard1:

Sadly. Give us little science. We don't learn in schools that Turks created Europe hahahaha :D

Shut up: http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/125437

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Shut up: http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/125437

Who heard for this portal? It is irrelevant portal for world :D Even you Turks don't read this shits.

[kevinmac]

Textbook Persian

http://i.imgur.com/5tivfqy.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

Who heard for this portal? It is irrelevant portal for world :D Even you Turks don't read this shits.

what?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

what?

This forum what you send to me is very irrelevant for scholar world. Wikipedia is admitted as real source of information.

[Hudayar]

https://www.magticom.ge/magazine/1999-3/mshvidobit-2.jpg
In this pic, Georgians look very similar to Turkmens (not phenotypically i'm talking about hair style and dress)
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/4f/95/1f/4f951f306cc1e46f136e0a107fe86a32--world-cultures-central-asia.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

source of information.
agree, but not academic ;)

[Vlatko Vukovic]

agree, but not academic ;)

If you "agree", why you denied that Indo-European is a language family, wikipedia presented this information as 100% correct.

[Proto-Shaman]

If you "agree", why you denied that Indo-European is a language family, wikipedia presented this information as 100% correct.

I said many European schoolars state it doesn't, is this so hard to understand? you are debating with me about simple facts since 10 pages?

[Vlatko Vukovic]

I said many European schoolars state it doesn't, is this so hard to understand? you are debating with me about simple facts since 10 pages?

Yes, becouse you are denying facts.

[Proto-Shaman]

Yes, becouse you are denying facts.


I said many European schoolars state it doesn't, is this so hard to understand?