The Spanish Civil War

[The Lawspeaker]

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The Spanish Civil War -1 of 6 Prelude to Tragedy

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The Spanish Civil War - 2 of 6 Revolution, Counter-Revolution & Terror

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The Spanish Civil War - 3 of 6 Battleground for Idealists

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The Spanish Civil War - 4 of 6 Franco and the Nationalists

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The Spanish Civil War - 5 of 6 Inside the Revolution

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The Spanish Civil War - 6 of 6 Victory and Defeat

[poiuytrewq0987]

I wonder if the Republicans won the civil war would've meant Hitler invading Spain like he did Yugoslavia?

[The Lawspeaker]

That probably would have been the case. In that case Spain would have been devastated by two wars.

[poiuytrewq0987]

That probably would have been the case. In that case Spain would have been devastated by two wars.

And the irony is with the German invasion of Spain would've allowed them to take Gibraltar by force. Doing so would've gave the Axis powers absolute control over the Mediterranean Sea.

[The Lawspeaker]

The change would have been then that there might have been an alternative Operation Torch in Spain- with Portugal's neutrality being violated by the Allies (or liberated because the Germans would have taken Portugal as well). The Battle of the Atlantic would have been a lot more fierce with the Germans being able to use the Spanish and Portuguese ports.

The war might have ended differently. You would probably have had the Allies being forced to concede in North Africa and withdraw South thus expanding the war deep into Africa. By the time they would have been ready (if ever) for an invasion of Portugal and Spain the Soviets too would have been dead meat (as the Allies- stuck in their Atlantic battles in a desperate attempt to clear the routes to Africa could not have supported them.).

[The Lawspeaker]

Another reason why Spain's neutrality (and why Franco's victory was ironically speaking the Axis' undoing) was of vital importance to the Allies: from the Netherlands, Belgium and France downed airmen and other people (resistance fighters and some people who the Nazi regime would have loved to see dead) that were in mortal danger could be brought to neutral Spain and from there safely transferred to Britain.

Neutral Spain (and Portugal) if you may.. was the key to Allied victory in the Mediterranean. Suppose that Spain and Portugal got occupied the resistance (in particular the French Maquis) would have been doomed from the start.

In case Spain and Portugal would have been occupied there would have been a fierce scramble to take and hold the Azores and the Canaries.
Probably holding on to the Caribbean would have become vital too. And Mexico's and Brazil's entry into the war (which happened in 1942 btw) would have been vital for Allied interests. The Netherlands Antilles, Venezuela and Suriname would have been vital for the Allies to hold on to because of the Venezuelan oil, the refineries on the Antilles and Suriname's geographic location.

Suppose that the Allies would have won the war.. (very small chance) liberation would have come somewhere during the early '50 at the earliest...

[SwordoftheVistula]

Apparently there were divisions within the Spanish fascist party as well. I talked to a vendor with Asturian ancestry at a local Celtic fair last month, he said his father had been a founding member of the Spanish fascist party, but was later jailed by Franco, who tried to stamp out the Asturian identity in order to forge a universal 'Spanish' identity.

[JMarcial]

Sega, you are missing much information to speculate a conclusion.

If the National forces had lost the war the result would not be simple as a German invasion.

The Republic had been overthrown de facto (but not de iure) before the Civil War, by the forces of the Popular Front.

If you don't know what that means, think of Stalin having an allied Communist country in southwest Europe. With a people's army seasoned in war and Soviet armament in Spain, Hitler would have had to think it more than twice before attacking the USSR. Or Spain.

With Stalin with a firm hold in western Europe depending on the choice of aliance western democracies had made, the two most possible results would have been German or Slav hegemony over Europe. Either way, a totalitarian Europe.

Spanish Nationalists did not fight to create a Fascist state. They fought to prevent the creation of a Communist state.

Even the Spanish Division of Volunteers in Russia did not go to fight for Hitler. As they stated, they went "to return Russia their visit to Spain". Their idea was that in Russia they could keep on with the fight against Communism that had been started in Spain.

[JMarcial]

Apparently there were divisions within the Spanish fascist party as well. I talked to a vendor with Asturian ancestry at a local Celtic fair last month, he said his father had been a founding member of the Spanish fascist party, but was later jailed by Franco, who tried to stamp out the Asturian identity in order to forge a universal 'Spanish' identity.After the assassination of José Antonio Primo de Rivera (and before, while he was still in jail), Manuel Hedilla Larrey was appointed as leader of Falange. After the war, he opposed the decree of unification of Falange with the Traditionalists. That brought an internal quarrel in Falange which could have had terrible consequences as this was happening in 1937, in the midst of the war. In the quarrel he killed one member of Falange.

A war tribunal sentenced him and three others to death, and a few others to minor sentences. But this was later commuted to 20 years of prison by General Franco. He only served 4 years, after which Franco commuted the sentence to confinement. 5 years later he was indulted by Franco.

That is all that there is to it. Falange was never involved in any regional identity affairs in Asturias or anywhere. There was no need to "forge" a "universal" Spanish identity because one existed already, it was real, and all members of Falange stood for it with no single exception.

Your "vendor" clearly sold you a fake story. I hope that you didn't pay for it.

[The Lawspeaker]

I speculated what could have happened in case the Republicans had won the war.
The irony is that a weakened Republic (if they could have won which of course they didn't) would have become a sitting duck for the Germans. Even if they would have been "seasoned" they would have lacked the substantial supplies needed to take on the 1940 German Army (which was a serious war machine). The USSR wasn't ready for combat in 1940 since they just got their butts kicked in the frozen forests of Finland and were then in the process of restructuring.

The Republic probably would have been smashed to pieces. Think about a well-armed France that got run over in less then 6 weeks. Spain ? In that particular situation ? With a ruined economy, not enough food or supplies. Two weeks.. at the very best. Give or take a day.

The irony is that the Nationalist victory was a blessing in disguise for the Allies: after all.. suppose that the Republic would have won the war Spain would have been invaded and thus not being neutral in the war. That means that the Allies would have seen the entire Mediterranean cut off.

[Don]

There was no need to "forge" a "universal" Spanish identity because one existed already

Seems a real joke that some people dares to doubt that.

Ahh... the infamy of taking advantage of early ages and telling Stories calling them History.
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Dividing Europe into pieces.

Insidious Semitics.

...

Por cierto, no estaría de más que te presentaras. Que nadie ose decir que un Español no es cortés y educado.

[Falkata]

Remember Hitler words :D

Hitler , when asked about conquering Spain by his generals, just after having conquered France said:
"No way, Spain is the only mediterranean nation really brave; they´d organize guerrillas behind us. You can´t go into Spain without the permission of the spaniards."

[JMarcial]

Sega, the armies of Napoleon were also the greatest war machinery of their time. Napoleon tricked a useless king of Spain to allow his armies march through Spain to take Portugal and when they were in they took the country. But the napoleonic soldiers were the target of constant guerrilla warfare by a people badly dressed, badly fed and worsely armed. They found uprisings even in very small towns and the fiercest resistance till the last man and woman in major cities.

Finally Napoleon's Grand Armée met its first ever defeat at the hands of a reorganized army that looked more like a recycled militia. Which it was to a large extent. Yet the number of napoleonic soldiers dead, wounded and made prisoner matched the total number of the napoleonic army before the battle.

[JMarcial]

There is no irony. The High Staff of the Spanish Nationalist Army were not nazi sympathizers. I doubt that they saw Hitler as anything very different to some new type of lesser Bolchevique. A minor evil.

[Don]

Spanish nationalism sympathizer with Nazism???

Any Spanish nationalist knows about Spanish history and once you know little parts of it, it's normal to look nazism and Hitler as some kind of retarded with obvious superiority and arrogance attitude.

To put an example: They had problems with the jews 500 years after Spanish Inquisition fixed that problem in Spanish huge territories...

No way, Spanish Nationalists have massive number of elements in Spanish History to feed their love and pride. Sympathize with Nazism or Fascism is senseless and proper of childish teenagers, not properly Nacionalistas Españoles.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Oh good. Siesta time :D