I2a Dinaric came to Central Europe from the Balkans

[JQP4545]

I've noticed on 23andMe that many Central Europeans (Austrians, Hungarians, Czechs, etc.) get a considerable percentage of their DNA from the Balkans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_in_Hungary According to Wikipedia, areas of Austria and Hungary become depopulated and many migrants from the Balkans settled there. When you also consider the large number of Vlachs who came to Central Europe, along with refugees from the Byzantine Empire who fled the Turks, it should be reasonable to assume that many Central Europeans have ancestors from the Balkans.

How, then can we take Ken Nordvedt's assertion that I2a Dinaric spread to the Balkans from the area north of the Carpathian Mountains seriously when it is equally possible that the great diversity of I2a Dinaric in Galicia region could be the result of migrants from the south? How can we look at the haplogroups of Turkey, of which the great majority are native Anatolian, and assume to nearly all I2a came to the Balkans from the Slavs? Central Europe was a very diverse place for hundreds of years so why should we assume that their haplogroups are all native? Why should we assume that the "warlike" Illyrians were so easily defeated by the Slavs?

In my opinion it is clear that I2a Dinaric is a native South-East European haplogroup, which made its way north after the Ice Ages.

[Jana]

I believe it did. Some are speculating it is another original Slavic haplogroup, although it occurs in highest frequencies among populations that looks least Slavic from a physical standpoint. It is present in Central Europe, maybe invading Slavs picked it up in there and brought it back to the source. There are members with better knowledge of population genetics, so they may give you more satisfying answer.

[Peterski]

Rather inversely - it migrated from Eastern and Central Europe to the Balkans.

I2a Dinaric was brought to the Balkans by Slavonic invaders and settlers - check this link:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?148889-What-s-the-verdict-on-I2a2-in-the-Balkans


Progress in the field of y-DNA testing (Y-DNA sequencing) allowed to confirm that previously done TMRCA estimates for I2-L621(Dinaric) were accurate and I2-DIN(L621) is young.
There are 90+ SNPs on the level of L621 what indicates long bottleneck that lasted through eneolithic, bronze age and big part of iron age period. So the whole Dinaric branch stems from one man who lived around the year of foundation of Rome in Central-Eastern Europe, most likely as a part of proto-Slavic people.

Frequency is meaningless and calculations show that diversity and TMRCA of I2-L621 decreases in the southerly direction. So the frequency in Balkans(Bosnia in particular) is a result of relatively recent founder effect, that happened at start of Slavic presence there and later strengthened regionally. It was just a chance, that Bosnia now is 60% I2, not 60% R1a.

As for now, L621* is found only in Poland and Western Ukraine, Polish haplotype was sequenced. The tree of Dinaric branch is available here http://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

So yes, it's slavic. Very young age allows for ethnic specification of this branch.

Let's add that some Slavic groups came to the Balkans from the east, but some other from the north (from Central Europe):

http://historum.com/european-history/80546-origin-croats-25.html

http://historum.com/european-history/80546-origin-croats-26.html

http://historum.com/european-history/68714-did-goths-return-sweden-scandinavia-4.html

Roughly like this (some smaller groups also went through what is now Eastern Hungary and Western Romania):

http://s10.postimg.org/r1inlawhl/Balkan_colonization_by_Slavs.png

[Skerdilaid]

kosovo has actually 23% I haplogroup with 16.3% I2a
http://atlas.xyvy.info/country-national-haplogroup-chart-dna/kosovo
i think kosovo is very diverse with their haplogroups. but i don't really trust these studies... lol. i also think its wrong to assume where the origin of dna is... but my bet would be afro-asia.

E-V13 is over 40% on Kosovars....what is this anyways??

[Skerdilaid]

no it not... its actually 23.4% this website is more reliable then other sites, because they just work on science then just peoples opinion http://atlas.xyvy.info/country-national-haplogroup-chart-dna/kosovo

lol sure it is.

[Peterski]

although it occurs in highest frequencies among populations that looks least Slavic from a physical standpoint.

Many South Slavs look pretty Slavic, unlike - for example - Greeks, who are low on I2a Din and look like Ancient Balkanians:

http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/146687.pdf

http://www.angle.org/doi/pdf/10.1043/0003-3219%281989%29059%3C0195%3AACCIOT%3E2.0.CO%3B2

Some photos of modern Greeks:

http://s2.postimg.org/l4ljerkbd/Greeks.png

And from the same book by Lawrence Angel - this time about Ancient Athenians / people from Ancient Attica:


Mean male stature of 162.2 cm. (5 feet 3 5/6 inches) and female stature of 153.35 cm. (5 feet 7/16 inches) are both short. (...)

Both publications linked above also reveal that Ancient Greeks looked very similar to modern Greeks.

So forget about all these statues of Heracles, etc. - they were photoshopped by ancient equivalents of photoshop.

=============================

Also:

http://dienekes.awardspace.com/texts/greekmorphological/

http://archhades.blogspot.com/2014/12/historical-greek-racial-continuity-and.html

[kuqezi]

i think it is, other sites just allow forums to be ignorant, whereas the one i posted is less narrow minded. face it, kosovo is most likely only 23.4% E-v13 and 17.2%R1a and 16.3% i2a. these are the national pies for other countries click on them.
http://atlas.xyvy.info/country-national-haplogroup-chart-dna

A random sampling of Gheg clans.. EV-13 is a lot higher than 23.4: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Abanian_DNA_Poject/default.aspx?section=results

[kuqezi]

hmmm no... that just random names... my one seems more reliable. more chances E=-v13 is only 23.4% there is problem with your site... read the email, its albanian, my site is controlled by non albanians.

Lol I am the one who controls the site and collects the samples.. If you test your father's YDNA and ask him his clan then I would add that as an additional entry, that is as random as it gets since you don't get to pick your YDNA or which clan you belong to.

[Skerdilaid]

:rotfl:

[Pjeter Pan]

thats the problem you control the sites and you're albanian, i'd prefer to use site not controlled by people for political agenda.

go away little girl, your too stupid for this

[kuqezi]

thats the problem you control the sites and you're albanian, i'd prefer to use site not controlled by people for political agenda.

LOL

[Pjeter Pan]

why because i refuse to be white washed by extremist albanians like you? are you scared of R being higher then E? or H showing up, or J? or I being higher?

no its because your 15-16 years old and you're ignorant as fuck, you don't know anything about genetics. i couldn't care less about those haplo groups since im L2*
dont talk about things you cant comprehend. mybll gojen edhe ik me fjet, majmun e vogel

[kuqezi]

face it. its a fact, and that site works with 23andme.com in fact there studies are far more realiable then your site.

The entries are from tested clansmen from ftdna, 23andme, and NatGeo Genographic. You can believe what you want but your slander does not stick without evidence.

[kuqezi]

there is evidence, but you like to use wikipedia who is easily edited by anyone and your "special" site because it is controlled by albanians,

Wikipedia? That has nothing to do with what I said as I havn't mentioned it.

You are basically calling me a liar. Please provide evidence of me lying or falsifying results. Otherwise stfu.

[kuqezi]

so you decided to cherry pick who had the most E-v13? if there was NO albanian controlling that, the tests would be far more different, the site is unreliable, because it would have real scientists not people like you who spread racist ideology who spends their time on the internet.

Again with your baseless accusations... That won't get you anywhere in life little girl the sooner you learn that the better.

[Pjeter Pan]

so you decided to cherry pick who had the most E-v13? if there was NO albanian controlling that, the tests would be far more different, the site is unreliable, because it would have real scientists not people like you who spread racist ideology who spends their time on the internet. fuck off you stupid little cunt, are this fucking retarded? my god, get the fuck off this forum kurva

[Ballist]

fuck off you stupid little cunt, are this fucking retarded? my god, get the fuck off this forum kurva

Ej ej ma kadale tash.

[Drawing-slim]

face it e-v13 isn't 40% in kosovo and what ever dna we have does NOT determine who more ancestral rights to certain lands, face it, a surname is just a surname, people mix and so so, its stupid to say oh i'm older oh no i am its stupid. live up to the reality.No it's not, it's actually over 55%

[Skerdilaid]

Justme for god's sake chill the fuck out! kuqezi does not own a site, but he is a mod on the Albanian project at ftDNA, along with me. The page he linked are actually all the examples that we have collected so far on Albanians that can confirm their Clan. There is not propaganda on it, so please leave genetics to people that actually understand them.

[Drawing-slim]

Kuqezi is a PRICK who is helping the agenda that albanians from macedonia are "newcomers" to macedonia.

so no i don't need to listen to his fairytales about which dna albanians mostly belong to.
Can you post your photo one more time please. I forgot exactly your classification.

[Ballist]

You guys need to stop with this shit, seriously. I'm going to sleep. That Anglofag has tired me and this is the last arrow to the ass. Goodnight mudafuckas.

[Drawing-slim]

no its not its actually less then 30%.
Why you thumbing me down? I'm not insulting you in anyway. I remember seeing you photo and it's interesting look you have. You're cute too.

[Pjeter Pan]

Why you thumbing me down? I'm not insulting you in anyway. I remember seeing you photo and it's interesting look you have. You're cute too.

i saw that pic she looked like she just woke up, looks 13 and needs to be slaped

[Ballist]

You're cute too.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Skerdilaid]

thats the problem he is the mod there... no i would not trust him, he does it in an agenda that he is an E-V13 man so it suits him to put albanians there, which people? people like you who use it for political reasons? clans don't confirm dna, and surnames change people mix, face it.

The tests are not done by him or me lol, but by ftDNA, 23andme etc. We only just list them there and confirm their Clan, and also we help/guide people that want to test. That's all, now relax and go to sleep because it's like 5:00 am in London.

[Pjeter Pan]

I have NEVER posted my photo here, but of other people yes.

you posted your "friend" but it was your ugly ass :heh:

[Borna]

I have NEVER posted my photo here, but of other people yes.

Most likely because you are not Albanian.

[Borna]

Albanian means being like you guys then I wouldn't mind that.

I am not Albanian lol, but i remember how you trolled, said that Albanians feel close with Turks and Kurds.

[Pjeter Pan]

I'd rather be ugly then be caught in bed with you :D



little girl go to sleep now

[Drawing-slim]

I have NEVER posted my photo here, but of other people yes.oh, ok. That was your firend then. I thought we collectively agreed it was actually you. But it's ok, regardless the girl you posted was cute and interesting looking. Phenotype wise.

[Pjeter Pan]

ahhh are you crying?.... here have a tissue :ranger:

yes im crying because i never meat such a dumb little gabelle like you

[Drawing-slim]

:bored: Albanian men... they are disgraceful i'd rather marry a foreigner.
And why is that justme? What have I done to you?

[Loki]

Of course it did. All I2 is Balkanic in origin.

[Pjeter Pan]

albanian men are horrible in general. albanian men who marry polish women raise them up like queens but albanian girls what do they get? 0.

thank you, both albania and kosovo are high in I haplogroup. you live in london.... i know the type of girl you are now xD

[Loki]

thank you, both albania and kosovo are high in I haplogroup.

As expected. The other endemic one being E-V13 of course. Together they represent the Balkans, since thousands of years ago.

[Pjeter Pan]

where do you live in a cage? i'd love to be near you but i might be arrested for animal abuse.

oooooh a feisty one ;) maybe if your were good looking albanian men would treat you well

[Skerdilaid]

:lmao

[Pjeter Pan]

when it comes to treating their own woman albanian men are disgraceful, but with polish czech girls no its a different story, in kosovo a lot of girls are starting to date and marry out side their background and i say GOOD FOR THEM.
stop trolling gabelle, dont be mad no one wants your ugly ass

[Drawing-slim]

albanian men are horrible in general. albanian men who marry polish women raise them up like queens but albanian girls what do they get?.you see, I understand you. You must be a nice honest strong willed albo girl. Because I actually agree with you on this one subject. Some albanian men Do treat None-albanian whores as princes but use the macho man rule towards much prettier nicer albanian women. Its very cowardly of them because they take advantage of their costumes knowing their wife or girlfriend will not get out of line, due to her respecting this tradition not to bring shame to her family. But I assure its not all albnians, some moronic coward few. Those type of men that can't get laid much on their own anyway.

[Borna]

That is very common. Foreing fruits are always taken with more care than domestic.

[Skerdilaid]

Loki, stop trolling us with this justme character :D

[Drawing-slim]

That is very common. Foreing fruits are always taken with more care than domestic.

It shouldn't be. It's wrong in so many levels IMO.

[Loki]

But I assure its not all albnians, some moronic coward few.

I hate generalizations. You, for example, strike me as a perfect gentleman.

[Pjeter Pan]

no one is offering you anything. i'd rather be ugly.

who said i want you xD
rather be ugly? but you already are

[Loki]

Loki, stop trolling us with this justme character :D

lol why? :D I can remember in the past I disagreed with her on something quite strongly.

[Borna]

It shouldn't be. It's wrong in so many levels IMO.

I generally had different attitude toward foreing girls i met and was in relationship then with my own. Not in the way we are speaking now, but something was different. Can't explain what.
It is not a same if you date foreing or domestic girl.

[Drawing-slim]

Loki, stop trolling us with this justme character :Dnow that you mentioned, you might be correct!xD

[Skerdilaid]

lol why? :D I can remember in the past I disagreed with her on something quite strongly.

I just got a hunch xD

[Pjeter Pan]

and I'm proud of being ugly, because it means I won't be touched by you :rolleyes:

i wouldn't touch your if your the last Albanian girl on earth xD now go to sleep, your definitely not getting your beauty sleep.

seriously who is this troll?

[Borna]

Polish girls are pretty Justme. They should be treated like a queens.

[Pjeter Pan]

even better I don't want to get aids.

:lmao

gabelle whats wrong? your too young to be talking about such matter, go to sleep now

[Pjeter Pan]

Yes they are pretty, that's why men are pigs because girls who are are seen are below average should be treated like dirt, that's what comment is stating.

no wonder your so angry, you dont get any love or attention xD

[Pjeter Pan]

Please don't give me TB or any disease sometimes I'm scared you might pass it to me through the internet...
go to sleep

[Borna]

Yes they are pretty, that's why men are pigs because girls who are are seen are below average should be treated like dirt, that's what comment is stating.

I smell some serious personal agenda behind your posts lol.

[StormBringer]

I believe it did. Some are speculating it is another original Slavic haplogroup, although it occurs in highest frequencies among populations that looks least Slavic from a physical standpoint. It is present in Central Europe, maybe invading Slavs picked it up in there and brought it back to the source. There are members with better knowledge of population genetics, so they may give you more satisfying answer.

I thought diversity > frequency in tracing point of origin.

[Jana]

I thought diversity > frequency in tracing point of origin.

Can you explain what do you mean?

[StormBringer]

Can you explain what do you mean?

I'm not sure do I fully understand it myself, but, if a haplogroup is prevalent in some region it doesn't necessary mean it originated there, but in the place where there's lot of different subtypes of that haplogroup.


Taj istočni M423, poznat kao Dinaric, danas i najmnogobrojniji, je genetski veoma mlad, tačnije predak svih današnjih pripadnika ove haplogrupe živio je prije nekih 2.500 godina. Upravo ta genetska mladost, iznenadna demografska eksplozija, veća raznovrsnost haplotipova u Zakarpatju nego na Balkanu, oborila je hipotezu da je I2a M423 Dinaric starosjedilački na Balkanu.

[Jana]

I see. Thanks for information, it makes sense.