Scotch-Iirish not a real ethnicity

[TheForeigner]

You often hear Americans speak of ''Scotch Irish'' ethnicity and how important it was in colonial North America and how important their descendants as American pioneers and settlers of the interior of their country, but there is no such ethnicity in the British Isles. The people they speak of are North Irish Protestants and they never called themselves that and have never been called that in the British Isles or Europe. Also these people settled alongside other British settlers, mainly in the Appalachian mountains and they intermarried with them, to a considerable degree. They were likely not even a majority of settlers in that region. North Irish Protestants seem to be a mix of Scottish and English settlers, plus some number of native Irish converted to Protestantism.

[Mark]

This is true. But I think the term Scotch/Irish is just used loosely, and most people in the USA do not think it's an actual single ethnicity.

[Hong Key]

Ulster Scots people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people)

The Ulster Scots (Ulster-Scots: Ulstèr-Scotch; Irish: Albanaigh Uladh or Uladh-Albanaigh) are an ethnic group in Ireland, found mostly in the Ulster region, although also to a lesser extent in the rest of Ireland. Their ancestors were mostly Protestant Lowland Scottish (and Northern English people from Cumberland and Northumberland), many being from the "Border Reivers" culture. These people migrated to Ireland in large numbers with the Plantation of Ulster, a planned process of colonisation which took place under the auspices of James VI of Scotland and James I of England on land confiscated from those members of the Irish nobility who fled Ireland, fearing arrest.

Ulster-Scots emigrated in significant numbers to the United States and all corners of the then-worldwide British Empire — Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa along with the British West Indies — and to a lesser extent to Argentina and Chile. Scotch-Irish is a traditional term for Ulster Scots who later emigrated to what is now the United States; "Scots-Irish" is a more recent form of the American term, and is not to be confused with Irish-Scots, i.e., recent Irish immigrants to Scotland.

Between 1717 and 1775, an estimated 200,000 migrated to what became the United States of America. In the United States Census of 2000, 4.3 million Americans (1.5% of the population of the United States) claimed Scotch-Irish ancestry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Andrew_Jackson.jpg
Andrew Jackson, seventh President of the United States, was the first of Scots-Irish extraction.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/223/480496465_6a4e2cbf89_z.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2411/2373099497_2a6813a2da_z.jpg?zz=1
USA mural in Newtownards, NI

[TheForeigner]

These people are basically Irish Protestants.

[Hong Key]

These people are basically Irish Protestants.

Not really, no.

Protestant Lowland Scottish (and Northern English people from Cumberland and Northumberland)

Now if you want to go back far enough the Scots used to live in the Northern part of Ireland and then invaded what we now call Scotland. Plantation of Ulster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster)started 400 years ago so maybe you can make your argument, DNA would be interesting, how Scottish/N. English or Irish are the decedents?

They have everything that makes up an ethnic group. DNA would be interesting though. I would like you to go to a Ulster Scot neighborhood and tell them that they do not exist, that they are just Irish who don't fancy the Pope.

[Hong Key]

Ulster-Scots hub: New visitor centre opens in Belfast city centre
Ulster Scots Agency The Ulster-Scots Agency will now have its main offices at Belfast's Cathedral Quarter

A new Ulster-Scots hub and visitor centre has opened in Belfast city centre.

The Corn Exchange building in the Cathedral Quarter is now home to the Discover Ulster-Scots Centre.

Several organisations including the Ulster-Scots Agency, library and archive will now have their offices there.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-30240544

[TheForeigner]

I think they are not very sure about ethnicity and base their identity more on religion and loyalty to the British state and crown, some history. They are a mix and can't be called Scots anymore. I doubt many say they are. In a documentary about the English language I once saw, one Ulster Protestant said about people in some villages and himself, that '' some say we are more Scottish than the Scots themselves'', meaning they know they are not Scots anymore. And these were from rural areas settled only by Scottish Presbyterians, but many are Anglicans and mix of Scots, English and Irish. All of them stick together and don't consider themselves Scottish. I think they are not very sure about their ethnic or national identity, because of the conflict there and their religion. I hope Elsa will comment on this, since she is a North Irish Presbyterian herself.

[Hong Key]

I hope Elsa will comment on this, since she is a North Irish Presbyterian herself.

I would be interested as well.

WHERE ARE YOU ELSA?

[TheForeigner]

bump

[Hong Key]

bump

i emailed Elsa but she never responded.

[TheForeigner]

i emailed Elsa but she never responded.

I left a visitor message and also got no response yet. I'm also surprised to see that she is no longer a moderator.

[TheForeigner]

Northern Irish Presbyterians and Scots-Irish don't follow the same politics, history & mentality. You wouldn't get anywhere with that.

I don't think there is such a thing as ''Scots-Irish'' ethnicity. It is an American concept. Do you consider North Irish Protestants as Irish people or what? What do they think and what do other Britons see them as?

[TheForeigner]

Where does ''Ulster Scots'' name come from?

[Hong Key]

What is Ulster-Scots by The Ulster-Scots Agency
http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/what-is-ulster-scots/

The Ulster Scot magazine - January 2015 by The Ulster-Scots Agency
http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/fs/doc/2015-ulster-scots/Ulster_Scot_January_2015_%28NXPowerLite_Backup%29. pdf

Ulster-Scots Language Society
http://www.ulsterscotslanguage.com/

The Scot-Irish of America and Ulster-Scots of N.Ireland share ancestors but they are old ancestors. To acknowledge the obvious connection does not indicate they are still the same but lineages (genetic/music/etc) can be traced back.

Now a good question Foreigner asked is how many Protestants in N.Ireland descend from Ulster-Scots aswell as consider themselves Ulster-Scots? I would assume they are descendents (with a small/large? Irish admixture) As far as identifying themselves maybe I am wrong , perhaps the examples I gave of murals, organizations are a very small minority.

[TheForeigner]

Their American descendants are much more mixed than the ones in Ireland.

[Nathaniel P. Banks]

Outside of America these people are referred to as Ulster Scots, even though there were sizable Northern English and Irish converts to Protestantism among them. This is documented somewhere in Albion's Seed I believe.

[Nathaniel P. Banks]

Some Historians describe these immigrants as "Ulster Irish" or "Northern Irish." IT is true that many sailed from the province of Ulster in northern Ireland, but these labels are not accurate when applied to the movement as a whole. The emigration from Ulster was part of much larger flow which drew from the lowlands of Scotland, the north of England, and every side of the Irish Sea.

Many Scholars call these people "Scotch-Irish." That expression is an Americanism, rarely used in Britain and much resented by the people to whom it was attached."We're no Eerish bot Scoatch," one of them was heard to say in Pennsylvania. Some preferred to be called Anglo-Irish, a label that was more commonly applied to them than Scotch-Irish during the Eighteenth century. Others were called "Saxon-Scotch." One Scholar writes: "....some Ulster protestants derived from families that were not Scottish at all, but English or Irish," He adds "... some immigrant groups that historians have labeled as Scots-irish never lived in Ireland but came directly from Scotland."

Albion's Seed (David Hackett Fischer) page 618

[TheForeigner]

So, I was right to assume it's an American term that describes a group that doesn't even exist.

[Nathaniel P. Banks]

The group existed and still exists. The term scots-irish is just an imprecise description.

[TheForeigner]

The group existed and still exists. The term scots-irish is just an imprecise description.

As your sources say, it was a more diverse stream of British migrants and settlers. They were just a bunch of Britons and their descendants are just American.

[TheForeigner]

To be fair it makes more sense than the Northern Irish calling themselves British. Considering the Scots migrated to Ireland before 1707 & the creation of 'Great Britain'.

If they are British citizens, why should they not be called that? Anyway, in continental Europe, many would still call even the Irish as British. It's the British Isles after all and you guys are all so similar culturally and phenotypically too. The ''Anglo-Saxons'' and ''Celts'' thing is naive, since you have a similar mix of that ethnically and culturally. I would call them British and North Irish Protestants. Scots consider them Scottish?

[TheForeigner]

Not sure if you're being deliberately ignorant. That is how it comes across.

That would be a bad mistake to make if said in Ireland.

I don't live in Ireland and know they would not like it. To me they are British. Don't know a better and more realistic term to group you Islands people together.

[Styrian Mujo]

They are just Anglo-Saxon Protestans.

[HoboJim]

Most of my ancestry is Northern Irish and I couldn't be more proud. For a relatively small community of people they've made a massive impact in North America.

[DarkSecret]

Yeah, they are just mountain Anglos.

[Albannach]

They are just Anglo-Saxon Protestans.

Not true, most came from Dumfries and Galloway in Southwest Scotland, which historically was never predominantly Anglo-Saxon. Gaelic even survived there into the 18th century. Shame there is so much hatred between Catholics and Protestants in the North of Ireland as they are basically the same people.

[Creoda]

Not true, most came from Dumfries and Galloway in Southwest Scotland, which historically was never predominantly Anglo-Saxon. Gaelic even survived there into the 18th century. Shame there is so much hatred between Catholics and Protestants in the North of Ireland as they are basically the same people.
I thought they were mostly from the Scottish/English border region? Most of their names are not Gaelic origin.

[PostOak1]

Call 1/3 of my ancestry what you want, but I am proud of them. They were the vanguard in forces that brought the British Empire to its knees in the Southern Backcountry during the American Revolution.


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[AvalonDelAcqs]

You often hear Americans speak of ''Scotch Irish'' ethnicity and how important it was in colonial North America and how important their descendants as American pioneers and settlers of the interior of their country, but there is no such ethnicity in the British Isles. The people they speak of are North Irish Protestants and they never called themselves that and have never been called that in the British Isles or Europe. Also these people settled alongside other British settlers, mainly in the Appalachian mountains and they intermarried with them, to a considerable degree. They were likely not even a majority of settlers in that region. North Irish Protestants seem to be a mix of Scottish and English settlers, plus some number of native Irish converted to Protestantism.

I don't think it is real ethnicity either. I used to think I was Scotch-Irish due to Ulster ancestry but then I was like wait ? huh ? I have a hiberno-Norman Irish name not Scottish. It turns out I am Old English (Norman) from Ireland and I an Anglo-Cornish (southwest English).

[Odin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIzJArehUAo

[StevenTylerAerosmith]

y u come to speak bullshits about america?

hav u ever even been here?

i dont speak bullshits about rumania on here...