Genetic study on Southern Italains and Sicilians

[Kamal900]

An Ancient Mediterranean Melting Pot: Investigating the Uniparental Genetic Structure and Population History of Sicily and Southern Italy

Published: April 30, 2014
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074

Due to their strategic geographic location between three different continents, Sicily and Southern Italy have long represented a major Mediterranean crossroad where different peoples and cultures came together over time. However, its multi-layered history of migration pathways and cultural exchanges, has made the reconstruction of its genetic history and population structure extremely controversial and widely debated. To address this debate, we surveyed the genetic variability of 326 accurately selected individuals from 8 different provinces of Sicily and Southern Italy, through a comprehensive evaluation of both Y-chromosome and mtDNA genomes.

When Sicilian and Southern Italian populations were contextualized within the Euro-Mediterranean genetic space, we observed different historical dynamics for maternal and paternal inheritances. Y-chromosome results highlight a significant genetic differentiation between the North-Western and South-Eastern part of the Mediterranean, the Italian Peninsula occupying an intermediate position therein. In particular, Sicily and Southern Italy reveal a shared paternal genetic background with the Balkan Peninsula and the time estimates of main Y-chromosome lineages signal paternal genetic traces of Neolithic and post-Neolithic migration event

Overall, both uniparental genetic structures and TMRCA estimates confirm the role of Sicily and Southern Italy as an ancient Mediterranean melting pot for genes and cultures.

Results

Y-Chromosome perspective

Haplogroups G-P15 (12.3%), E-V13 and J-M410* (both 9.5%), together with R-M269* (7.4%) represent the most frequent lineages found in Sicily and Southern Italy (SSI). These are followed by five R1-sublineages (R-M17, R-L2, R-P312, R-U152, R-U106), whose frequencies range from 5.2% to 3.7%, and by J-M267 which embraces almost the 5% of total variability. All these paternal lineages reportedly originated in Europe or in the Near East, whereas much lower it seems to be the African paternal contribution, mainly represented by haplogroups belonging to HG-E sub-lineages (E-V12, 2.76%; E-V22, 2.15%; E-M81, 1.53%). Contrary to what previously reported in literature [8], no differential distribution of Y-chromosome lineages has been found in our dataset. Fisher exact tests performed on HG frequencies between Southern Italy and Sicily (P-value: 0.4765), as well as between Eastern and West Sicily (P-value: 0.2998), indeed do not reveal any significant differentiation. No significant percentage of variance among groups of populations (FCT) has been detected by regional AMOVAs (Table S4). In the same way, when our Sicilian populations were grouped with those of Di Gaetano et al. 2009 following their East-West subdivision scheme and by using the same HG resolution level, both AMOVA (variation among groups 0.30%, P-value 0.091) and Fst index (P-value 0.094), failed to reveal any significant difference in Y-chromosome HGs composition, thus pointing out a substantial homogeneous pattern of genetic variation within the island.

Moreover, when the distribution of Y-chromosome lineages in the present-day Sicilian and Southern-Italian population has been compared with the one of the surname-based selected subset, no significant differentiation appeared (P-value: 0.9551).

High levels of within-population variability have been observed for all the 8 populations analysed, as well as for the whole dataset (Table S5), thus suggesting a high genetic heterogeneity at a micro-geographical level among the considered Sicilian and Southern-Italian populations, as confirmed also by the presence of 312 out of 326 unique STRs haplotypes. In addition, all shared haplotypes involve at most two individuals.

In order to more deeply explore the genetic relationships among Mediterranean groups, our samples were then compared with the 29 Euro-Mediterranean, Levantine and North-African populations extracted from the literature (Table S1), by using a common level of Y-HGs resolution.

More precisely, the first sPC (Figure 1a) separates the Iberian, Central-European and North-Western Italian populations on one hand (black squares), from the Balkans and the Levant on the other hand (white squares). Sicily and Southern Italy particularly revealed to be well set in the genetic context of the Central and South-Eastern Mediterranean group, the only exception being Catania (CT), which instead shows a stronger affinity to the North-Western cluster (Iberian Peninsula, Germany and Northern Italy).


http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0096074.g001

Interestingly, the second sPC (Figure 1b), despite being much less representative compared to the first one in terms of both variance and spatial autocorrelation, identifies a subdivision between the two Mediterranean coastlines, which seems to involve the Eastern and Western parts of Sicily. The first group (black squares) is indeed represented by populations from the South-Eastern Mediterranean shore (Levant and North-Africa), including also the most western Sicilian provinces (Trapani and Agrigento) and the Iberian populations.

Conversely, the second cluster (white squares) is mainly a North-Eastern Mediterranean centred group, encompassing the Balkans, South-Italy and East-Sicily, together with the other central European populations. When the reliability of the sPCA-identified structures was tested by means of an AMOVA based on haplogroup frequencies, the proportion of genetic variation between groups (FCT) results however two times higher when grouping according to the sPC1 (8.31%, P-value<0.001) than sPC2 (4.31%, P-value = 0.004). The sPCA-suggested pattern of genetic relationships among the different Mediterranean populations, has been confirmed in the classical PCA plots reported in Figure S2a

The two high-structured Mediterranean clusters identified with sPC1, were further tested by means of DAPC analysis. Membership probabilities, represented with a structure-like plot (Figure 2), highlight the intermediate position of the Italian samples between the two Mediterranean clusters. In this context, Sicily and Southern Italy show clearly their stronger affinity with the populations from the South-Eastern Mediterranean side (with the partial exception of Catania - CT).


http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0096074.g002

The barplot represents DAPC-based posterior membership probabilities for each of the considered populations to belong at each of the two sPC1-identified groups (white = South-Eastern Mediterranean; black = North-Western Mediterranean). Population codes as in Table S1.

Despite the fact that these time estimates must be taken with caution, as they might be affected by the choice of both STRs markers and their mutation rates, overall our results agree in suggesting that most of the Y-chromosomal diversity in modern day Southern Italians originated during late Neolithic and Post-Neolithic times (~2,300 YBP for E-V13; from ~3,200 to ~3,700 YBP for J sub-lineages; ~4,300 YBP for R-M17 and R-P312; and ~2,000 YBP for R-U106 and R-U152).

Mitochondrial DNA perspective

The observed mtDNA HGs distribution reflects the typical maternal variability pattern documented for Mediterranean Europe. In fact, most of the individuals belong to super-haplogroup H, that on the whole accounts for the 38% of the total mtDNA lineages detected in our dataset. Within H, H1 represents the most frequent sub-lineage (10.9%), followed by H5 (3.2%) and H3 (2.6%). Noteworthy is also haplogroup HV, that has been found at relatively high frequencies (4.8%). Most of the remaining samples belong to haplogroups U5, K1, J1, J2, T1, T2, thus confirming prevalent European and Middle-Eastern genetic ancestries. MtDNA haplotypes of African origin are instead represented by few haplogroups at low frequencies, namely M1 (1.3%), U6a (0.6%) and L3 (0.6%).

Similarly to Y-chromosome, mtDNA does not reveal any kind of population sub-structure both within Sicily (East vs. West Sicily) as well as between Sicily and Southern Italy, neither considering haplogroups nor haplotypes (sequences). AMOVA results show low and non-significant FCT values when population samples were grouped according to geography (Table S4). Analogously, Fisher exact tests reveal no significantly different HG composition in any of the geographic regions considered (South Italy vs, Sicily, P-value: 0.5019; East Sicily vs. West Sicily, P-value: 0.0698). In the same way, both AMOVA (variation among groups 0.52%, P-value 0.082) and Fst (P-value 0.076) based on HG frequencies show the absence of significant genetic differentiation along the east-west axis of Sicily.

The highest eigenvalue obtained is the most positive one (sPC1) associated with the presence of a global structure. As previously emerged for Y-chromosome, sPC1 plot reveals a North-West/South-East (NW-SE) distribution of mtDNA genetic variation (Figure 3a). Nearly all of the Mediterranean populations (with some exceptions, i.e. AG, TV, BUR) appear indeed distributed along a longitudinal transect running from North African and Near Eastern countries (large white squares) to the Iberian Peninsula (large black squares), with the bulk of the South-Eastern European populations (including Balkans and Italy) roughly occupying an intermediate position therein (see also Figure S2b). Among them, Sicily and Southern-Italy appear linked to the South-Eastern Mediterranean coast. When the reliability of this sPC1-identified structure has been tested by means of AMOVA, the proportion of genetic variation between groups (FCT) results lower than in the case of Y-chromosome (2.45%) but still significant (P-value<0.001).

Fisher exact tests were applied to determine if differences in HG frequencies among population groups were statistically significant (Table S6). As expected, haplogroup H is found to be over-represented in Euro-Mediterranean populations and under-represented in North-African ones, while the opposite has been observed for haplogroup L. Haplogroup K is over-represented in Levantine populations, and haplogroup M in North-Africa. However, when the deepest level of HG resolution has been exploited for single pairwise comparisons between SSI and Mediterranean reference populations, we do not found any HG whose frequency is significantly higher than in our dataset. The only exception is a slightly significant (P-value: 0.045) over-representation of H1 haplotypes in the Iberian Peninsula.

Differently from Y-chromosome results, TMRCA estimates for the most frequent mtDNA haplogroups of Sicily and Southern Italy (Table 1) date back to pre-Neolithic times and could be mainly classified in lineages pre-dating the Last Glacial Maximum - LGM (~32,200 YBP for HV; ~31,100 YBP for J2; ~28,900 and ~28,600 YBP for T1 and T2; ~27,300 for U5; and ~25,000 YBP for J1) or dating immediately after it (~16,700 YBP for H5 and ~15,700 YBP for H1).

Comparative analysis of maternal and paternal genetic pools

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0096074.g004
Figure 4. Admixture-like barplots for Y-chromosome (a) and mtDNA (b).

The barplots represent DAPC-based posterior membership probabilities for each of the considered populations and for each inferred cluster (mclust algorithm). The affiliation of each population to a given cluster and its corresponding colour code are represented by letters (within coloured squares) on the top of each bar. Labels: NAFR: North-Africa, LEV: Levant, BALK: Balkans, SSI: Sicily and South-Italy, NCI: North-Central Italy, IBE: Iberian Peninsula, GER: Germany.

From a Y-chromosome point of view, SSI form a fairly coherent group with the Levantine and the Balkan populations (cluster 2), despite showing some minor contribution (black component) also from the North-Western Mediterranean group (cluster 3). From a mtDNA point of view, our results show the differentiation between European and non-European Mediterranean populations, with North Africa and the Levant clustering in separate and different groups (1 and 2). However – and differently from the other European populations – SSI shows a noteworthy contribution (grey component) from the Levantine cluster. Both genetic systems reveal a negligible contribution from North Africa (white component).

Y-chromosome admixture proportions to the current SSI genetic pool indeed confirm an high paternal contribution from the South-Eastern Mediterranean populations, and particularly from the Balkan Peninsula (~60%), whereas about 25% of SSI Y-chromosomes can be traced back to North-Western European group. Analogously, although the present-day SSI mtDNA genetic pool is largely shared with the other South-Eastern European populations of the Mediterranean Basin (respectively Balkan and Italian Peninsulas), a remarkable proportion of maternal ancestry (especially if compared with its paternal counterpart) derives from the Levant.

More --> http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074

[Sikeliot]

So to summarize,

Western Sicily has a Levantine derived Mtdna pool, eastern Sicily has a Balkan-Italian derived one.
Paternal haplogroups, with the exception of Catania, are mostly shared with Balkans and Levant.

[Kamal900]

So to summarize,

Western Sicily has a Levantine derived Mtdna pool, eastern Sicily has a Balkan-Italian derived one.
Paternal haplogroups, with the exception of Catania, are mostly shared with Balkans and Levant.

Yes, and they are more closer to south-east med than to northern italians and other europeans. I guess the guys from italicroots would be shitting their pants now, huh?

[Sikeliot]

Yes, and they are more closer to south-east med than to northern italians and other europeans. I guess the guys from italicroots would be shitting their pants now, huh?

Autosomally all Sicilians are fairly similar though, appearing halfway between the Levant and Spain.

What is more worth noting is that genetically, on a GLOBAL pca plot, Levantines appear almost like an extension of Europe, whereas because of their Mongoloid admixture, Russians and Finns are more distant from most Europeans than Levantines are.. so even though Sicilians are genetically half ancient Levantine, that still places them closer to Europe than Finns and Russians.

[Kamal900]

Autosomally all Sicilians are fairly similar though, appearing halfway between the Levant and Spain.

What is more worth noting is that genetically, on a GLOBAL pca plot, Levantines appear almost like an extension of Europe, whereas because of their Mongoloid admixture, Russians and Finns are more distant from most Europeans than Levantines are.. so even though Sicilians are genetically half ancient Levantine, that still places them closer to Europe than Finns and Russians.

Pretty much. I hope the study is consistent with your photos that you post about Sicily and etc. How do you find the study?

[Trogdor]

Interesting...and my mother's maiden name supposedly denotes having ancestry from Albania, which is a Balkan country.

[Sikeliot]

Pretty much. I hope the study is consistent with your photos that you post about Sicily and etc. How do you find the study?

I find it peculiar that Catania would be such an outlier. But I am not surprised that there is higher Levantine ancestry to southwestern Sicily, because it only makes sense that this would be the case. The people from southern Trapani province and the adjacent regions in Agrigento, like Sciacca, have a number of quite exotic phenotypes that are less common on the rest of the island.

[Foxy]

So Abruzzo is Balkanian? :confused:

[Sikeliot]

So Abruzzo is Balkanian? :confused:

Genetically closer to the Balkans than to NW Europe and Iberia, yes.

[Ulla]

Yes, and they are more closer to south-east med than to northern italians and other europeans. I guess the guys from italicroots would be shitting their pants now, huh?

Sicilians can be closer to south-east Meds than to Northern Italians and other Europeans but they are still Italian and European while Levantines won't ever be. As a Northern Italian myself I think that genetics doesn't change the status quo.

[Ulla]

So Abruzzo is Balkanian? :confused:

Or more likely Balkans are Abruzzese? ;)

[Sikeliot]

Sicilians can be closer to south-east Meds than to Northern Italians and other Europeans but they are still Italian and European while Levantines won't ever be. As a Northern Italian myself I think that genetics doesn't change the status quo.

On global PCA plots, Levantines appear very close to Europeans; NE Europeans drift away even further due to their Asian admixture (Finns and Russians). So genetically, Levantines are more European than Finns and Russians. Sicilians being up to half ancient Levantine means they're still more European than NE Euros.

[Kamal900]

Sicilians can be closer to south-east Meds than to Northern Italians and other Europeans but they are still Italian and European while Levantines won't ever be. As a Northern Italian myself I think that genetics doesn't change the status quo.

Um, i never once claimed that Levantines are europeans or whites. This study meant to discredit people from Italicroots that all italians look and genetically no different from one another thats all. Never said anything that they aren't european or italians much like i do consider Gazans to be Palestinians even though they're different from palestinians in other regions.

[Foxy]

Or more likely Balkans are Abruzzese? ;)

Faces are not that similar...

[Sikeliot]

Faces are not that similar...

Closer than to Iberians and West Europeans though I'd assume. After all you're facing the Balkans and not West Europe.

[Trun]

What is more worth noting is that genetically, on a GLOBAL pca plot, Levantines appear almost like an extension of Europe, whereas because of their Mongoloid admixture, Russians and Finns are more distant from most Europeans than Levantines are.. so even though Sicilians are genetically half ancient Levantine, that still places them closer to Europe than Finns and Russians.

:rolleyes:

[Trun]

So genetically, Levantines are more European than Finns and Russians. Sicilians being up to half ancient Levantine means they're still more European than NE Euros.

:picard1:

[Foxy]

:picard1:

I gave up several years ago. Unlucky madhouses are close. Vodka?

[Sikeliot]

Well I do not consider Russians and Finns to be fully European but that is just me.

[Trun]

Vodka?

:drink

[Volscian]

Basically, like all the other papers on Italian uniparental markers, it suffers from having too few samples(although it gains credibility because of a sampling method based on regional surnames), and from the fact that they're still not using full genome sequences. I think part of the problem is that since they perhaps don't have the resources to do wide spread testing, they are trying to draw what conclusions they can from comparisons with prior data bases, which are usually at a much lower level of resolution.

Still, I think there's some interesting stuff here.

I was particularly interested in their TMRCA dates, which they define as not the population split time, but the amount of time needed to evolve the STR genetic variation.I should emphasize that they emphasize how cautious you have to be with TMRCA dates, given the uncertainties about the proper mutation rates and how dependent the results are on the number and type of STR's that are chosen, even though they were careful to use only the slowest moving markers.

That said, I think looking at the relative ages is informative, and there are a few "good fits". Here is the chart:
Attachment 6418

In terms of yDNA, you have G-P15 coming in at around 7,000 B.C., which seems a pretty good fit for the Neolithic to me, although they maintain that this indicates a possible pre-Neolithic appearance in Italy. (In their prior paper, there was indeed one cluster of G2a that was even older than this. Clumping all the subclusters of G2a into one group obscures that in this case)

P312 and R-M17 show up next, with an approximate age of 2300 B.C. which would correlate with the putative dates for the appearance of the Indo-Europeans. In the rest of Europe, we're talking about Bell Beaker and Corded Ware, which would certainly fit with these two haplogroups. In Italy, we have evidence for Bell Beaker in some areas of northern Italy, but as for the south, it only appears in western Sicily. The modern distribution shows a slight preponderance in Sicily versus southern Italy, but he samples are, of course, small. (5.09/3.64)

Then, the authors examined the five most common yDNA "J" haplogroups, which by their calculations have a TMRCA of between 1700 to 1250 B.C., and total about 24% of all the y haplogroups. In northern Italy, this is the time of the Terramare culture, which some observers have tied to the Indo-Europeans, but the dates for P312 and R-M17 are older according to their method.

These are the groups with dates around 1600-1700 B.C.:
J2a-410, which is highest in the Caucasus but present in Anatolia and Greece. It has the highest frequency in the area, at 9.51%, and is slightly more frequent in Sicily.
J2b-M12, which has a similar distribution to E-V13, and is therefore high in the Balkans. It comes in at 3.37 and appears more in S.Italy than in Sicily.
J2a-M92, with high frequencies in Anatolia and Tuscany (Nobody 1, are you reading this? ) It also comes in at 3.37% and is spread equally throughout SSI.

Then you have these slightly later haplogroups with a supposed age of 1250 B.C.
J2a-M67, with peaks in Crete, Greeks, Albanians, and the Caucasus. It represents 3.07% of the population and is a little heavier in southern Italy.
J1-M267, which is the type found in Eastern Anatolia, and the Caucasus, not Arabia. It is 4.91% of the total population, and heavier in Sicily.

The authors waffle about the source of these lineages, saying that they could have a Neolithic source, or perhaps a source in Phoenician colonies.
I have my doubts about a Neolithic origin, given that the "J" lineages haven't shown up in any Neolithic context, although one could show up tomorrow, of course. As for the Phoenicians, everything I know about them indicates they established emporia, not large scale settlements on the Greek model, although even they were male mediated. I also would think the Phoenician signature, coming, as some of it would have, from Carthage, would have carried a North African flavor, and we don't see very much of that at all.

I'm rather surprised that these geneticists don't know that southern Italy, at this period in history was very much under the influence of the Minoan civilization, and then Mycenean Greece, and that there was also, according to Pallottino, a movement across the Adriatic which gave rise to the Appennine Culture of central into southern Italy. I would think the latter might be a good fit for J2b.

See The Foundations of Latin, by Philip Baldi, an online book, p. 100,
and The Bronze Age, by V. Gordon Childe, also an online book, p.195,
and https://www.academia.edu/1300703/The...ate_Bronze_Age

This is then followed by E-v13, with a date of approximately 350 B.C. This seems to be a relatively good fit for the Greek colonization of SSI, which began around the 700's B.C.

The last group for which dates are given are the R1b U-152 groups, and R-U106, both of which date to around the beginning of the Common Era. I have personally been leaning toward a possible correlation with Terramare for U-152 but that has a date of 1700 B.C. Otherwise, are we looking at Urnfield or Hallstadt influenced cultures? For L2, would we then be looking at Alpine Celts and/or Gauls? I really don't know. A date like this also doesn't make any sense for U-106 in Sicily, which is where it is more predominant by far. I would think that would correlate more with the Normans one thousand years later in 1000 A.D.. If all of these dates were to be pushed forward 1,000 years, that would play havoc with everything we think we know about the movement of these haplogroups.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29842-southern-Italian-paper-2014

[Ulla]

Um, i never once claimed that Levantines are europeans or whites. This study meant to discredit people from Italicroots that all italians look and genetically no different from one another thats all. Never said anything that they aren't european or italians much like i do consider Gazans to be Palestinians even though they're different from palestinians in other regions.

I haven't read the paper so I can't add more. What I have said it was just to establish an anchor point.

PS

Europeans and whites have much in common but aren't synonyms.

[Ulla]

On global PCA plots, Levantines appear very close to Europeans; NE Europeans drift away even further due to their Asian admixture (Finns and Russians). So genetically, Levantines are more European than Finns and Russians. Sicilians being up to half ancient Levantine means they're still more European than NE Euros.

Levantines aren't European but surely the birth of the concept of Europe has more to do with South East Mediterranean than with Finns and Russians.

[Sikeliot]

Levantines aren't European but surely the birth of the concept of Europe has more to do with South East Mediterranean than with Finns and Russians.

Yes. Genetics aside, Sicilians could be 100% Levantine (they're not) and they'd still be more European in my eyes than Finns, who have not contributed anything to European cultural development as a whole. If they hadn't been there, Europe would be exactly as today.

[Ulla]

Faces are not that similar...

I know, I was kidding of course.

[Ulla]

Yes. Genetics aside, Sicilians could be 100% Levantine (they're not) and they'd still be more European in my eyes than Finns, who have not contributed anything to European cultural development as a whole. If they hadn't been there, Europe would be exactly as today.

That's sure.

Europa on the bull: Metope from a temple in Selinunte, Sicily

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Palermo-Museo-Archeologico-bjs-14.jpg/1024px-Palermo-Museo-Archeologico-bjs-14.jpg

[Bell Beaker]

What does it says about Iberia?

[Sikeliot]

That's sure.

Europa on the bull: Metope from a temple in Selinunte, Sicily

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Palermo-Museo-Archeologico-bjs-14.jpg/1024px-Palermo-Museo-Archeologico-bjs-14.jpg


Yes. If anything "European" should refer to Italians and Greeks, and not to Northerners.

[Cristiano viejo]

What I said, Northern Italians and Southern Italians are two different and separated races.

[Ulla]

Yes. If anything "European" should refer to Italians and Greeks, and not to Northerners.

Agree, but after the Barbarian Invasion Northerners are trying to rewrite the history of Europe. :rolleyes:

Still today in Germany (I mean in the German universities, not in the German anthrophora) the Indo-European studies are called "Indogermanistik" (Indo-Germanic studies). :laugh2:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5ODXgMhJAyo/maxresdefault.jpg

[Styrian Mujo]

Agree, but after the Barbarian Invasion Northerners are trying to rewrite the history of Europe. :rolleyes:

Still today in Germany (I mean in the German universities, not in the German anthrophora) the Indo-European studies are called "Indogermanistik" (Indo-Germanic studies). :laugh2:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5ODXgMhJAyo/maxresdefault.jpg
Lol at Poland on that globe;)

[FeederOfRavens]

Agree, but after the Barbarian Invasion Northerners are trying to rewrite the history of Europe. :rolleyes:

Still today in Germany (I mean in the German universities, not in the German anthrophora) the Indo-European studies are called "Indogermanistik" (Indo-Germanic studies). :laugh2:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5ODXgMhJAyo/maxresdefault.jpg

The people of Corded Ware and other PIEs were much closer to Germanic peoples than they are to the Latins. At least genetically.

[Cristiano viejo]

Finns, who have not contributed anything to European cultural development as a whole. If they hadn't been there, Europe would be exactly as today.

:clap2:

[Ulla]

The people of Corded Ware and other PIEs were much closer to Germanic peoples than they are to the Latins. At least genetically.

Latins were IEs, surely of a different stock of Germans being that Latins were civilized at least 1500 years before. :)

[Not a Cop]

On global PCA plots, Levantines appear very close to Europeans; NE Europeans drift away even further due to their Asian admixture (Finns and Russians). So genetically, Levantines are more European than Finns and Russians. Sicilians being up to half ancient Levantine means they're still more European than NE Euros.

Interesting, so SSA in Sicily don't pull it futher?

[FeederOfRavens]

Latins were IEs, surely of a different stock of Germans being that Latins were civilized at least 1500 years before. :)

Latins were only IEs culturally. They lack genetic and ethnic commonality with PIEs(Namely Y-dna R1a) unlike Germanic peoples.

[Ulla]

Latins were only IEs culturally. They lack genetic and ethnic commonality with PIEs(Namely Y-dna R1a) unlike Germanic peoples.

Not true, they were IE genetically as well but closer to Celts than to Germanic people.

[Daniele90]

Well I do not consider Russians and Finns to be fully European but that is just me.
The Asian part of Russia, maybe (although heavily influenced by the European part of Russia), Finns are fully European
Genetics don't matter in Europe..

[Trun]

In Sicilian nightclubs people text on Nokia and drink Finlandia and nobody gives a fuck about Archimed.

At the end of the day Scandos and other barbarians enjoy their high life standart while we wogs complain about unemployment.

[FeederOfRavens]

Not true, they were IE genetically as well but closer to Celts than to Germanic people.

I mean the modern day Latin ethnicities(Spaniards, Italians, French)

[Daniele90]

Agree, but after the Barbarian Invasion Northerners are trying to rewrite the history of Europe. :rolleyes:

Still today in Germany (I mean in the German universities, not in the German anthrophora) the Indo-European studies are called "Indogermanistik" (Indo-Germanic studies). :laugh2:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5ODXgMhJAyo/maxresdefault.jpg
This is shameful though..
"Nordicism" at its worst

[Ulla]

I mean the modern day Latin ethnicities(Spaniards, Italians, French)

In this case I think is better to call them (I mean "us") "Romance" or "neo-Latin". Romance is probably the more appropriate.

[Jackson]

Well I do not consider Russians and Finns to be fully European but that is just me.

One also has to consider the genetic distance of the populations that aren't contributing to each. If a population was 50% southern European 50% Levantine they might look less distinct from some (southern) European samples than say a 90% northern European 10% east Asian group, but in the end one is 50% European the other 90% European. These numbers are arbitrary BTW. My point is this depends on what one considers as European and what one doesn't. Russians are still quite close to the main northern European group - basically north-east Europeans with a little Siberian/Asian proper DNA...but they are still European, along with Finns. Could be comparable to southern Italians/Sicilians having a chunk of ancestry from the Near east more recently than most other Europeans, yet people in general still consider Sicily and southern Italy to be European.

[Cristiano viejo]

The Asian part of Russia, maybe (although heavily influenced by the European part of Russia), Finns are fully European
Genetics don't matter in Europe..

:blink::blink:

[Ulla]

This is shameful though..
"Nordicism" at its worst

Incredible ma è così. Ancora oggi nelle università tedesche usano quel nome come se gli Europei di Indo-Europei coincidessero solamente con le popolazioni germaniche. E poi ci meravigliamo di quanto sta accadendo nell'UE.

[Daniele90]

Indo-germanico.. uno sputo in un occhio alle leggi linguistiche del PIE (in particolar modo), e il ceppo linguistico germanico non è particolarmente conservativo tra l'altro..

[Jackson]

Latins were only IEs culturally. They lack genetic and ethnic commonality with PIEs(Namely Y-dna R1a) unlike Germanic peoples.

Incorrect, they have PIE influence, just less than northern Europeans.

[Ulla]

Indo-germanico.. uno sputo in un occhio alle leggi linguistiche del PIE (in particolar modo), e il ceppo linguistico germanico non è particolarmente conservativo tra l'altro..

As a matter of fact the more IE conservative language is the Lituanian, if I remember well.

[FeederOfRavens]

Incorrect, they have PIE influence, just less than northern Europeans.

Looking at Y-dna, the influence is quite minimal.

[Daniele90]

:blink::blink:
Like it or not, historical immigration from outside of the continent always happened in Europe
There's no "pure" European population

[Ulla]

Looking at Y-dna, the influence is quite minimal.

Not really, even in Italy R1b is the most common Y-Dna among the males. Not to mention France, Spain and Portugal.

[FeederOfRavens]

Not really, even in Italy R1b is the most common Y-Dna among the males. Not to mention France and Spain.

R1b? Indo-European?

[Ulla]

R1b? Indo-European?

Yes, not only R1a is considered IE.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152

[Jackson]

Looking at Y-dna, the influence is quite minimal.

Looking at autosomal DNA, the influence is low - but higher than that in, for example Iberia. Generally they have 2-3% more ANE, but in the south-eastern areas some of that will be due to more recent near eastern influence no doubt.

R1a cannot be the only marker associated with Indo-Europeans (although it is one of the most obvious), as for example Britain in general has only around 5% R1a, but levels of ANE only slightly below that of eastern Europe - and the ratios of the ANE/WHG/EEF in NW Europe do not support it predominantly being sourced from Neolithic Scandinavian foragers. Reich is holding a presentation next week in Oxford about this very subject, and through their genetic studies of Samara valley populations, as well as other European individuals from the Neolithic through to the late Bronze age, seems to have concluded that around 50% of northern European ancestry could be from these western steppe/far eastern European PIE speakers. Of course it doesn't drop to 0% in southern Europe, especially as Greek, Albanian, Italic and Celtic have to be explained, but it is less in general - at least going by the understanding that northern Europeans are specifically mentioned, and that ANE levels are lower in the south, and in particular the south-west of Europe.

[FeederOfRavens]

Yes, not only R1a is considered IE.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152

R1b just isn't proto-Indo-European. It was Indo-Europeanised in western Europe, but it wasn't at the proto-Indo-European urheimat.

[Ulla]

R1b just isn't proto-Indo-European urheimat.. It was Indo-Europeanised in western Europe, but it wasn't at the proto-Indo-European urheimat.

Do you mean Kurgan? There are many theories about the proto-Indo-European urheimat. Which one?

BTW R1a can't be the only proto-Indo-Europeans Y-Dna. This excludes more than half western Europe.

[FeederOfRavens]

Do you mean Kurgan? There are many theories about the proto-Indo-European urheimat. Which one?

Of course, the Kurgan.

[Not a Cop]

One also has to consider the genetic distance of the populations that aren't contributing to each. If a population was 50% southern European 50% Levantine they might look less distinct from some (southern) European samples than say a 90% northern European 10% east Asian group, but in the end one is 50% European the other 90% European. These numbers are arbitrary BTW. My point is this depends on what one considers as European and what one doesn't. Russians are still quite close to the main northern European group - basically north-east Europeans with a little Siberian/Asian proper DNA...but they are still European, along with Finns. Could be comparable to southern Italians/Sicilians having a chunk of ancestry from the Near east more recently than most other Europeans, yet people in general still consider Sicily and southern Italy to be European.

Funniest part is that according to K8 Sicily have more SSA than Russians EEA, not to mention the fact that EEA is more common is Europe than SSA.

[FeederOfRavens]

Looking at autosomal DNA, the influence is low - but higher than that in, for example Iberia. Generally they have 2-3% more ANE, but in the south-eastern areas some of that will be due to more recent near eastern influence no doubt.

R1a cannot be the only marker associated with Indo-Europeans (although it is one of the most obvious), as for example Britain in general has only around 5% R1a, but levels of ANE only slightly below that of eastern Europe - and the ratios of the ANE/WHG/EEF in NW Europe do not support it predominantly being sourced from Neolithic Scandinavian foragers. Reich is holding a presentation next week in Oxford about this very subject, and through their genetic studies of Samara valley populations, as well as other European individuals from the Neolithic through to the late Bronze age, seems to have concluded that around 50% of northern European ancestry could be from these western steppe/far eastern European PIE speakers. Of course it doesn't drop to 0% in southern Europe, especially as Greek, Albanian, Italic and Celtic have to be explained, but it is less in general - at least going by the understanding that northern Europeans are specifically mentioned, and that ANE levels are lower in the south, and in particular the south-west of Europe.

Which markers should be associated with PIEs other than R1a?

[Ulla]

In Sicilian nightclubs people text on Nokia and drink Finlandia and nobody gives a fuck about Archimed.

At the end of the day Scandos and other barbarians enjoy their high life standarts while we wogs complain about unemployment.

But this gonna change.

[Jackson]

Funniest part is that according to K8 Sicily have more SSA than Russians EEA, not to mention the fact that EEA is more common is Europe than SSA.

Indeed, given that much of Europe is basically central/north Asian shifted already, it could be argued that a little extra EEA is not as 'foreign' to Europe as a little extra 'SSA', although these are fairly silly arguments to have anyway IMO, people are who they are. :)

[Ulla]

Of course, the Kurgan.

When Kurgan hypothesis was postulated in the 1950s by Marija Gimbutas haplos didn't even exist.

[FeederOfRavens]

When Kurgan hypothesis was postulated in the 1950s by Marija Gimbutas haplos didn't even exist.

Yet the "discovery" of Y-dna Haplogroups backed up the same hypothesis.

[alfieb]

Like it or not, historical immigration from outside of the continent always happened in Europe
There's no "pure" European population

There's no "pure" Europe full stop. Europeanism is a cultural concept, man-made. Recent. It has no basis in genetics.

That's not to say that Europe was created recently. Greco-Roman people named it thousands of years ago... but the idea of a European identity is recent. In Rome they didn't give a fuck if you were from Syria, Tunisia, or Spain.

Sicilians and Southern Italians have a high amount of Near Eastern admixture. That doesn't make them Near Easterners any more than an abnormal amount of Siberian admixture makes Finns and Russians Northeast Asians. That said, they're obviously not "pure Europeans", as if the thing actually existed.

[Jackson]

Which markers should be associated with PIEs other than R1a?

We'll find out soon hopefully. R1b is a good candidate IMO, otherwise we are looking at a massive loss of male lineages in western Europe post Bronze Age. Not to mention there are some western European groups of R1a and vice versa for eastern European R1b. I don't know as much about this as some other people, but it would suggest to me that there was at least some degree of overlap between the populations carrying R1a and R1b prior to their current distribution.

We know already that R1b was present in German Bell Beaker, and that R1a was present in Corded ware. I have also read recently that there was a lot of interface between Bell Beaker and Corded Ware in the northern areas, so it may be that if R1b and R1a were different autosomally in the beginning, interaction along this interface made these Bell Beaker groups more similar to Corded Ware groups nearby but without leaving much in the way of the cross over in regard to paternal lineages, and that might be a small part of the explanation as to why areas in which northern Bell Beaker dominated are genetically closer (now) to western areas of the Corded Ware region than to southern Bell Beaker regions, despite the abundance of R1b throughout western Europe?

As a side note, early and late Bronze age individuals from Hungary (one of the major routes into Europe these people likely took) are the oldest individuals yet who look just like modern Europeans (western Europeans specifically, modern Hungarians are further east genetically) in terms of their genetic composition. The early sample was from the Mako culture of around 2200-2000 BC, and the later was from the Kyjatice culture of around 1300-1100 BC.

So in other words, easterners who look like modern central-western Europeans are resident in Hungary in the early through to the late Bronze age (the later one carried J2a1 y-DNA), and in the Iron Age an individual carrying y-dna N, who was genetically even further eastern (and also carried even more of a West Asian component) is in residence. Modern Hungarians are about halfway between those two on the PCA. So basically, if somewhere in central-eastern Europe is shifted east genetically by the Bronze age, but not as much as many present day western Europeans - basically there needs to be a substantial penetration of eastern genes into western Europe, where R1a alone cannot account for that as it is quite uncommon west of Germany.

I'm sure a lot will be revealed in the coming months, this is all speculation on my part, and i'm quite new to Bronze Age Europe. But it seems that some mechanism needs to explain what is currently observed.

[Blood C]

Funniest part is that according to K8 Sicily have more SSA than Russians EEA, not to mention the fact that EEA is more common is Europe than SSA.

Joke of the year. Beside that half of East Asian admixture in Russians and Finns is swallowed in the fake ANE cluster, since Polako used Karitiana as a proxy for that component. South Italian samples from Eurogenes come from Crotone.


In Sicilian nightclubs people text on Nokia and drink Finlandia and nobody gives a fuck about Archimed.

At the end of the day Scandos and other barbarians enjoy their high life standart while we wogs complain about unemployment.

I've not seen people using Nokias in ages. Crappy phones who only nerds had.

Scando women love sexual gangbangs with wogs in the summer.

The next time you come to Italy, send my a message. I will let you know some of my Swedish friends here.

[Foxy]

Yes. Genetics aside, Sicilians could be 100% Levantine (they're not) and they'd still be more European in my eyes than Finns, who have not contributed anything to European cultural development as a whole. If they hadn't been there, Europe would be exactly as today.

As a Southern European without inferiority complexes I just want to apologize with Finns for having produced such idiots like Sikeliot (who is a mixed mutt btw).

I refuse both the nordicist views and the sudist views. I think both are expression of low self confidence. Imo Europe is perfect like it is, with a northern, a Southern and an eastern Europe on the same continent. None is more or less European. I also think that northerns can contribute well exactly like southerns and easterns.

About Sikeliot... :picard1:

Just a question, Sikeliot: you had decided to go away forever, why did you return?

[Foxy]

There's no "pure" Europe full stop. Europeanism is a cultural concept, man-made. Recent. It has no basis in genetics.

That's not to say that Europe was created recently. Greco-Roman people named it thousands of years ago... but the idea of a European identity is recent. In Rome they didn't give a fuck if you were from Syria, Tunisia, or Spain.

Sicilians and Southern Italians have a high amount of Near Eastern admixture. That doesn't make them Near Easterners any more than an abnormal amount of Siberian admixture makes Finns and Russians Northeast Asians. That said, they're obviously not "pure Europeans", as if the thing actually existed.

Sincerly I don't see all these middle eastern faces were I live. You can spot an immigrant from 1 km. Sikeliot just picks the most exotic people.
Where I live most people have brown hair, light white skin and brown eyes, with 25% of people having light eyes.

If you in Sicily have people looking like Middle Eastern speak for you.

[alfieb]

Sincerly I don't see all these middle eastern faces were I live. You can spot an immigrant from 1 km. Sikeliot just picks the most exotic people.
Where I live most people have brown hair, light white skin and brown eyes, with 25% of people having light eyes.

If you in Sicily have people looking like Middle Eastern speak for you.

I believe you when you say this. You're from Centro. You're only ever considered terroni because your region was part of Il Regno.

Sicily is swarthier. Calabria is swarthier. Puglia is swarthier. There's nothing wrong with that, and we're obviously not Near Easterners.

[Blood C]

Syrian refugees are easy to spot anywhere in Italy.

They are much darker in skintone and have foreign facial features.

I've met a Syrian lady few days I ago, I thought she was Brazilian parda or something.

[Alchemysta]

Italians are white and genetically more similiar to Swedes.

[Blood C]

Sincerly I don't see all these middle eastern faces were I live. You can spot an immigrant from 1 km. Sikeliot just picks the most exotic people.
Where I live most people have brown hair, light white skin and brown eyes, with 25% of people having light eyes.

If you in Sicily have people looking like Middle Eastern speak for you.

Light eyed people make 31% of population in Abruzzo and Molise.

Now it is probably higher due to mixing with Slavs and other Eastern Euros.

[Tiberio]

Syrian refugees are easy to spot anywhere in Italy.

They are much darker in skintone and have foreign facial features.

I've met a Syrian lady few days I ago, I thought she was Brazilian parda or something.

Indeed. In this forum the MENA looking is different to their real average. If you are Mediterranean here you become MENA.

[alfieb]

Indeed. In this forum the MENA looking is different to their real average. If you are Mediterranean here you become MENA.

In my case NA, in most cases ME. In reality, you go to those places and they know you're a tourist, whereas in Sicily it's just another bloke.

[Tiberio]

I've seen loads of NA and ME and they look far away from us.

[Tiberio]

Sincerly I don't see all these middle eastern faces were I live. You can spot an immigrant from 1 km. Sikeliot just picks the most exotic people.
Where I live most people have brown hair, light white skin and brown eyes, with 25% of people having light eyes.

If you in New York have people looking like Middle Eastern speak for you.

Fixed

[alfieb]

Fixed

Leave New York out of it. Sikeliot is Boston.

[Tiberio]

Boston or New York don't change so much to me. Anyway the division in look between deep southern Italians and NA is sharp, you have nothing in look like them but here MENA are uber white.

[Tiberio]

Sicily is swarthier. Calabria is swarthier. Puglia is swarthier. There's nothing wrong with that, and we're obviously not Near Easterners.

This don't make us as MENAS and you know that. Certainly the average of Sicily, Calabria and Puglia is more close to Abruzzese than Tunisia and Palestina. Who think we are similar to them is a blind.

http://s23.postimg.org/rzxbn24ob/0_LHR8_M9_A.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/ot2s3fk87/full/)

http://s23.postimg.org/5mpl093qj/r_PALESTINIANS_PROTEST_large570.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

[alfieb]

I never said we are.

But there are light Palestinians and light Syrians and light Lebanese and light Tunisians and light Moroccans who could pass anywhere from Trapani to Lecce.

[Tiberio]

I never said we are.

But there are light Palestinians and light Syrians and light Lebanese and light Tunisians and light Moroccans who could pass anywhere from Trapani to Lecce.

Few individual cases though, I've met a lot of MENAS in my life.

[alfieb]

Few individual cases though, I've met a lot of MENAS in my life.

So have I. Lived in a neighborhood called Bay Ridge which used to be mostly Italian but is nowadays nicknamed Beirut. Mostly Christian Lebanese, Christian Egyptian, but a lot of Muslims too. A lot of them could pass for Southern European. The ones you encounter are probably Muslim.

[Tiberio]

If christian Lebanese are different from other MENAS i don't know but i've visited Egypt and their average is like Tunisia (also been there two times).

[Tiberio]

Sicilians can be closer to south-east Meds than to Northern Italians and other Europeans but they are still Italian and European while Levantines won't ever be. As a Northern Italian myself I think that genetics doesn't change the status quo.

Actually is only Agrigento close to Eastern Mediterranean by Y-DNA, the other cities of the South are close to Balkans and the rest of Italy while Catania show affinities with North Western Europe by Y-DNA. We know that Y-DNA and mtDNA are 2% of our total gene-pool and it's much less important than autosomal were all southern Italians fall in the European cluster.
Because 12% of Catanese men in this study have R1b-U106 which is a Germanic Y-DNA but surely these men don't look German and they aren't close to Germans in autosomal. In addition to this study specify that these haplogroups entered in the Bronze age.
This is the PCA.

http://s24.postimg.org/id48ma4kl/Figure_S2.png (http://postimg.org/image/oe1xjcr6p/full/)

Principal Component Analysis (PCA) based on haplogroup frequencies for Y-chromosome (a) and mtDNA (b). Population codes as in Table S1. Colour codes for geographic affiliations as in the legends at the bottom-left of each plot. Legend abbreviations: NAFR: North-Africa, LEV: Levant, BALK: Balkans, SSI: Sicily and South-Italy, NCI: North-Central Italy, IBE: Iberian Peninsula, GER: Germany.

[alfieb]

If christian Lebanese are different from other MENAS i don't know but i've visited Egypt and their average is like Tunisia (also been there two times).

http://maroniteparishcalgary.com/blog/wp-content/themes/church-wp52/sliderimage/7.jpg
http://starscene.dailystar.com.lb/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Maronite-League.jpg
http://www.maronite-sf.org/photo_gallery/first_communion/first_communion_08.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HT26WE-1SeU/UZpMej7S53I/AAAAAAAAAAc/fx4UhDz6bsE/s1600/food+4.jpg

Tell me this can't be people in Cefalù or Caccamo and you are lying. These are Lebanese Roman Catholics. Not cherrypicked. The first pictures that came up when I asked for large images.

[Tiberio]

http://maroniteparishcalgary.com/blog/wp-content/themes/church-wp52/sliderimage/7.jpg
http://starscene.dailystar.com.lb/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Maronite-League.jpg
http://www.maronite-sf.org/photo_gallery/first_communion/first_communion_08.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HT26WE-1SeU/UZpMej7S53I/AAAAAAAAAAc/fx4UhDz6bsE/s1600/food+4.jpg

Tell me this can't be people in Cefalù or Caccamo and you are lying. These are Lebanese Roman Catholics. Not cherrypicked. The first pictures that came up when I asked for large images.

Not all of them can pass though and not only in Sicily and southern Italy.

[alfieb]

I have never said that ALL people of any group outside of Italy could pass in Sicily, with the exception of pure blooded Maltese with no British ancestry, because Maltese are genetically identical to Western Sicilians.

[wvwvw]

Interesting...and my mother's maiden name supposedly denotes having ancestry from Albania, which is a Balkan country.

By the way, in the Balkan peninsula it includes Greece

[wvwvw]

Finns, who have not contributed anything to European cultural development as a whole. If they hadn't been there, Europe would be exactly as today.

Finns are mostly a Germanic ethnic group and the contributions of Germans count as Finnish too.

[Highlands]

How old is the Balkan ancestry in Apulia? I know there were large Illyrian settlements in Adriatic Italy but could it also be recent, maybe dating to medieval times?
Is Serbia-Hungary used as a reference for Balkan?

[wvwvw]

How old is the Balkan ancestry in Apulia? I know there were large Illyrian settlements in Adriatic Italy but could it also be recent, maybe dating to medieval times?
Is Serbia-Hungary used as a reference for Balkan?

See Volscian's post in page #1

[alfieb]

How old is the Balkan ancestry in Apulia? I know there were large Illyrian settlements in Adriatic Italy but could it also be recent, maybe dating to medieval times?
Is Serbia-Hungary used as a reference for Balkan?

Some is more recent (Albanians settled very heavily in Apulia after Skanderbeg).
Some is older, from Byzantine period.
Some is ancient (the south around Lecce and Taranto was part of Magna Graecia while the northern part was Messapian which was Illyrian).

I don't think there's an easy way to tell percentages of which era it came from. It's the same blood more or less.

[Blood C]

Places of origin of the samples:

Sicily: Agrigento, Catania, Ragusa-Siracusa, Trapani, Enna
Calabria: Cosenza
Basilicata: Matera
Puglia: Lecce

@Tiberio

LOL at Alfieb posting photos of Diaspora types mixed for 4 generations with WASPs and other North Euros. Maronites who only make 1% of Levant's population and 0.1% of total Arab population in the world.

Photos from University of Beirut, the Scandinavians of the Middle East.

https://www.facebook.com/BeirutArabUniv/photos_stream?tab=photos_albums&__fns&hash=Ac3fh5tvbaZwkcja

If you really think that more than 10% of them can fit anywhere in Europe, then you need a serious help.

[alfieb]

LOL at Alfieb posting photos of Diaspora types mixed for 4 generations with WASPs and other North Euros. Maronites who only make 1% of Levant's population and 0.1% of total Arab population in the world.

You're an idiot. Civil War was 1975-1990. Before Civil War Lebanon was majority-Catholic. Now Lebanon is about 20-30% Catholic. Now there are millions of refugees in the diaspora and the vast majority of them are Catholic.

I never say "Oh this Jordanian can pass in Naples" or "That Sicilian looks Gazan". When I talk about comparisons to Levantines I use Lebanon, and the context is Maronites when people ask me to expand. Obviously Muslims are swarthier on average. They are mixed with Arabs.

[Blood C]

You're an idiot. Civil War was 1975-1990. Before Civil War Lebanon was majority-Catholic. Now Lebanon is about 20-30% Catholic. Now there are millions of refugees in the diaspora and the vast majority of them are Catholic.

There are not milions of Maronite refugees and even if it was true, they would be completely mixed with their host population by a long time.

Do not dare to insult me anymore! :mad:

[Kamal900]

*sigh* wow, i never thought the study would create such tensions here about the phenotypes about southern Italians and levantines. Now, some genetic isolates of the levant, like the Druze and Maronites, may pass in some areas in Sicily individually but as a group they wouldn't nor they are genetically and culturally European either.
http://sa.druze.org.au/events/bdw2008/Photos/Hyatt/slides/big%20druze%20weekend%202008%20in%20adelaide%20017 .JPG
http://sa.druze.org.au/events/bdw2008/Photos/Hyatt/slides/big%20druze%20weekend%202008%20in%20adelaide%20010 .JPG
http://www.druzeworldwide.com/sitebuilder/images/ADY_CA_-_30-603x335.jpg

I posted the study only to counter against the members from italicroots about the idea that ALL southern Italians are 100 percent pure, and their outrageous claims against the Iberians and etc. We DONT consider ourselves whites or Europeans nor do we associate ourselves to them or to any other alien races. I'm proud to be an Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Arab and Palestinian, and i know my place that i truly belong and that is in the middle east. If you people wished to argue about southern italians then do it in another thread not mine.

[Ulla]

Actually is only Agrigento close to Eastern Mediterranean by Y-DNA, the other cities of the South are close to Balkans and the rest of Italy while Catania show affinities with North Western Europe by Y-DNA. We know that Y-DNA and mtDNA are 2% of our total gene-pool and it's much less important than autosomal were all southern Italians fall in the European cluster.
Because 12% of Catanese men in this study have R1b-U106 which is a Germanic Y-DNA but surely these men don't look German and they aren't close to Germans in autosomal. In addition to this study specify that these haplogroups entered in the Bronze age.
This is the PCA.

http://s24.postimg.org/id48ma4kl/Figure_S2.png (http://postimg.org/image/oe1xjcr6p/full/)

Principal Component Analysis (PCA) based on haplogroup frequencies for Y-chromosome (a) and mtDNA (b). Population codes as in Table S1. Colour codes for geographic affiliations as in the legends at the bottom-left of each plot. Legend abbreviations: NAFR: North-Africa, LEV: Levant, BALK: Balkans, SSI: Sicily and South-Italy, NCI: North-Central Italy, IBE: Iberian Peninsula, GER: Germany.

That Sicilians can be closer to south-east Meds it was said by OP, not by me. I was just repeating what he said to confirm that no genetics paper can change what Sicilians are, Italian and European.

[alfieb]

There are not milions of Maronite refugees
Wikipedia article on Maronites say there are estimated 3+ million of them worldwide and a max of one million in Lebanon. I wasn't a math major at university but...

[Blood C]

Big Druze weekend?

In Australia? ;)

Yeah sure.

Actually the average for Lebanon is much darker than that, considering that there are up to 2 milions of Arab refugees, mostly Syrians, Iraqis and Palestinians, who usually don't go to University.

[Kamal900]

Wikipedia article on Maronites say there are estimated 3+ million of them worldwide and a max of one million in Lebanon. I wasn't a math major at university but...

There are far more Lebanese living in Brazil(8 to 10 million) alone than they are in Lebanon. Anyway, i ask people here to stop this nonsense or i would have to ask Loki to close down the thread.

[Kamal900]

Big Druze weekend?

In Australia? ;)

Yeah sure.

Actually the average for Lebanon is much darker than that, considering that there are up to 2 milions of Arab refugees, mostly Syrians, Iraqis and Palestinians, who usually don't go to University.

Listen, i'm just showing the genetic isolates of the levant only and most dont look southern italians. Most palestinians in Lebanon already have their diplomas and batchular degrees in lebanon, but they arent allowed to work in white collar professions because of the discriminatory policies towards us. Anyway, we're not white, and its funny that your from a forum that keep demonizing the iberians in being NA admixed and etc.

[alfieb]

There are far more Lebanese living in Brazil(8 to 10 million) alone than they are in Lebanon. Anyway, i ask people here to stop this nonsense or i would have to ask Loki to close down the thread.


http://aws.vdkimg.com/article/8/5/4/8/854850_main_scale_450xauto.jpg

Pilato, vedendo che non riusciva a nulla, ma che si sollevava un tumulto, prese dell’acqua e si lavò le mani in presenza della moltitudine, dicendo: Io sono innocente del sangue di questo giusto; pensateci voi.

[wvwvw]

*sigh* wow, i never thought the study would create such tensions here about the phenotypes about southern Italians and levantines. Now, some genetic isolates of the levant, like the Druze and Maronites, may pass in some areas in Sicily individually but as a group they wouldn't nor they are genetically and culturally European either.
http://sa.druze.org.au/events/bdw2008/Photos/Hyatt/slides/big%20druze%20weekend%202008%20in%20adelaide%20017 .JPG
http://sa.druze.org.au/events/bdw2008/Photos/Hyatt/slides/big%20druze%20weekend%202008%20in%20adelaide%20010 .JPG
http://www.druzeworldwide.com/sitebuilder/images/ADY_CA_-_30-603x335.jpg

I posted the study only to counter against the members from italicroots about the idea that ALL southern Italians are 100 percent pure, and their outrageous claims against the Iberians and etc. We DONT consider ourselves whites or Europeans nor do we associate ourselves to them or to any other alien races. I'm proud to be an Afro-Asiatic, Semitic, Arab and Palestinian, and i know my place that i truly belong and that is in the middle east. If you people wished to argue about southern italians then do it in another thread not mine.

Where have Italians ever claimed they were pure? They are content to be Italians but I don't think they have ever claimed they are pure.

[Blood C]

We don't consider ourselves white

Then post photos of 75% Anglo Saxon admixed "Druzes" from Australia.

Can't be more trollish than that. ;)