Reich: Yamnaya brought R1b to Europe

[blogen]

Any writings by Homer and Pindar describing the gods, heroes, or notable people (most of them were said to be blond). For example, Homer described Menelaus, the king of the Spartans, as blond in "Iliad".

This was a clear question. What is the sources?

[Peterski]

Data for three steppe IE cultures - Andronovo + Tachtyk + Tagar:

1. Hair pigmentation (when known):

blond or light brown - 6 (60%)
brown - 3
dark brown - 1

2. Y-DNA haplogroups (when known):

R1a1a - 9 (90%)
C (not C3) - 1 -------------------> individual with C had dark brown hair

3. mtDNA haplogroups (for everyone):

T3 - 3
H or U - 3
T1 - 2
C - 2
U4 - 2
U5a1 - 1
U2e - 1
H5 - 1
H6 - 1
T2a1b1 - 1
K2b - 1
I4 - 1
G2a - 1
Z1 - 1
HV - 1
F1b - 1
N9a - 1

4. mtDNA of individuals with blond or light brown hair:

T1 - 2
C - 2
N9a - 1
U5a1 - 1

[blogen]

Data for three steppe IE cultures - Andronovo + Tachtyk + Tagar:

1. Hair pigmentation (when known):

blond or light brown - 6 (60%)
brown - 3
dark brown - 1

What would be interesting, since:

The Andronovo samples from Krasnoyarsk region (sex/YDNA/mtDNA/skin/hair/eye) 1800–1400 BC:

wogs: 50%
male/C/U4/medium/brown/brown
male/R1a1a/U2e/-/brown/-
female/U4/medium/brown/brown
female/Z1/-/-/brown

borderline case (maybe!): 25%
female/T2a1b1/-/-/light
unknown/K2b/-/-/light

light color complexion: 25%
male/-/T1/fair or medium/light/light
male/R1a1a/U5a1/fair or medium/light/light

[Peterski]

male/C/U4/medium/brown/brown

Wrong, C male was dark brown (not brown). I provided all the data above.

Here is the source:

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnaintro.shtml

===================

http://s28.postimg.org/yk0dq7659/Tachtyk.png

http://s2.postimg.org/kz2vhilpl/Andronovo.png

http://s23.postimg.org/fc9z8n1kr/Tagar.png

http://s28.postimg.org/yk0dq7659/Tachtyk.png
http://s2.postimg.org/kz2vhilpl/Andronovo.png
http://s23.postimg.org/fc9z8n1kr/Tagar.png

This above is all pigmentation from genes.

But pigmentation preserved in mummies also shows the same pattern.

Some mummies from R1a Siberian Scythians (Pazyryk culture):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30889-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-extended-discussion/page5

[blogen]

So these are the other datas:

Tagar, 800BC-100AD (sex/YDNA/mtDNA/skin/hair/eye):

wogs: 50%
unknown/-/T3/fair or medium/brown/blue or green
female/-/T3/-/-/brown
male/R1a1a/C/fair or medium/blond or light brown/brown
male/R1a1a/H5/-/-/brown

unknown or borderline case (maybe!): 50%
unknown/-/T3/-/-/blue or green
male/R1a1a/I4/-/-/blue or green
male/R1a1a/G2a/-/-/blue or green
male/R1a1a/-/-/-/blue or green

light color complexion: 0%


Tachtyk, 100-400AD (sex/YDNA/mtDNA/skin/hair/eye):

wogs: 20%
female/-/-/-/-/brown

unknown or borderline case (maybe!): 20%
male/R1a1a/-/-/blue or green

light color complexion: 60%
female/-/C/fair or medium/blond or light brown/blue or green
female/-/N9a/fair or medium/blond or light brown/blue or green
female/-/T1/fair or medium/blond or light brown/blue or green


TOTAL STEPPE (bronze and iron age):

wogs: 43%
unknown: 33%
light color complexion: 24%

[Bloodnigger]

Any writings by Homer and Pindar describing the gods, heroes, or notable people (most of them were said to be blond). For example, Homer described Menelaus, the king of the Spartans, as blond in "Iliad".


Any writings by Homer and Pindar describing the gods, heroes, or notable people (most of them were said to be blond). For example, Homer described Menelaus, the king of the Spartans, as blond in "Iliad".

Your sources are wrong, partly.

Bacchylides describes 1 spartan woman as blond. He makes no generalization. Pindar and Homer wrote poetry and it wasn't take as realistic at all. Bacchylides also. Taking poetry at point blank but ignoring their more "scientific" texts is not a very smart move.

And on this Sophocles, laughing at the Eretrian, said,- 'Then, my friend, I suppose you are not pleased with the line in Simonides which is generally considered among the Greeks to be a beautiful one-
The maid poured forth a gentle voice
From out her purple mouth.
And you do not either like the poet who spoke of the golden-haired Apollo; for if a painter were to represent the hair of the god as actually golden, and not black, the picture would be all the worse. Nor do you approve of the poet who described women as rosy-fingered. For if any one were to dip his fingers in rosy-coloured paint he would make his hands like those of a purple-dyer, and not of a pretty woman.' And when they all laughed at this, the Eretrian was checked by the reproof; and Sophocles again turned to pursue the conversation with the boy; for he asked him, as he was brushing away the straws from the cup with his little finger, whether he saw any straws: and when he said that he did, he said, 'Blow them away, then, that you may not dirty your fingers.' And when he brought his face near the cup he held the cup nearer to his own mouth, so as to bring his own head nearer to the head of the boy. And when he was very near he took him by the hand and kissed him. And when all clapped their hands, laughing and shouting out, to see how well he had taken the boy in, he said, 'I, my friends, am practising the art of generalship, since Pericles has said that I know how to compose poetry, but not how to be a general; now has not this stratagem of mine succeeded perfectly?' And he both said and did many things of this kind in a witty manner, drinking and giving himself up to mirth: but as to political affairs he was not able nor energetic in them, but behaved as any other virtuous Athenian might have done."

The above can be found here
http://www.attalus.org/old/athenaeus13d.html#600
Section 81, go to page 600. The two poets he describes, btw, are Pindar and Homer respectively. (pindar for Apollo, Homer for the rest)

On the other hand we have several greek physiognomists or proto-anthropologists such as pseudo-Aristotle. Or historians like Herodotus which described the attributes of different peoples.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hh/hh4100.htm
The Geloni are descended by greek colonists and he states that they are completely different to the pale and red/blond Budini who are classified as thracians ore scythians.

Pseudo-Aristotle is the most famous in that regard and was used in a lot of such debates. The fact that he puts "white-haired/blond" scythians as far away from greeks as greeks from the ethiopians says a lot. There is also Gallen who says that in teenage and adulthood the people of greece have hair as "dark as the ethiopians" but he comes later, during the early roman era.

Nevertheless, from what I know, the dorians were classified as dinaric-alpine by anthropologists and they compared very well to pre-slavic central balkanic people so they would be even less blond than those today. I remember a classicist remarking that Herodotus, who loved descriptions and used colors of hair, tunics and other things, fails to make any such remark on the pigmentation of Spartans who prepared to die at the Hot Gates despite exhaustive descriptions on how they oiled their hair, wore crowns of leaves on their scalps and much more. I remember the same in Athenian plays during the Pelloponessian war where the spartans, their mortal foes, are not described thus and in war it pays to make the enemy look as alien to you as possible. (and athenians were predominately dark haired, as Aristophanes says good athenian girls have black hair or the wise woman does not bleach her hair)

Yamnaya culture is the one closest to europe and from what we know so far the original people who would become the myceneans came from the Ukraine. And, as it has been proven that 80% of the samples have dark hair and eyes, only a minority of them would have been blond. And the dorians even less so. A much more learned and serious person who also shares your views makes much, much more modest claims.

http://www.amazon.com/Indo-European-Origins-The-Anthropological-Evidence/dp/0941694755 (highly recommended) Kemp and Earlson are good trolling material but very far from the truth.

[Bloodnigger]

So these are the other datas:

Tagar, 800BC-100AD (sex/YDNA/mtDNA/skin/hair/eye):

wogs: 50%
unknown/-/T3/fair or medium/brown/blue or green
female/-/T3/-/-/brown
male/R1a1a/C/fair or medium/blond or light brown/brown
male/R1a1a/H5/-/-/brown

unknown or borderline case (maybe!): 50%
unknown/-/T3/-/-/blue or green
male/R1a1a/I4/-/-/blue or green
male/R1a1a/G2a/-/-/blue or green
male/R1a1a/-/-/-/blue or green

light color complexion: 0%


Tachtyk, 100-400AD (sex/YDNA/mtDNA/skin/hair/eye):

wogs: 20%
female/-/-/-/-/brown

unknown or borderline case (maybe!): 20%
male/R1a1a/-/-/blue or green

light color complexion: 60%
female/-/C/fair or medium/blond or light brown/blue or green
female/-/N9a/fair or medium/blond or light brown/blue or green
female/-/T1/fair or medium/blond or light brown/blue or green


TOTAL STEPPE (bronze and iron age):

wogs: 43%
unknown: 33%
light color complexion: 24%

Didn't Andranovo split off from Yamnaya? (the main group) The Corded Ware era warrior was also similar to the yamnaya sample. (http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2015/01/bronze-age-warrior-from-poland.html)

[blogen]

Didn't Andranovo split off from Yamnaya? (the main group)

Yes, and not. Yes, there was a yamnaya expansion into Western Siberia, but there is a problem with this: R1b yamnaya samples from the Volga valley and R1a Andronovo samples from Western Siberia. Maybe the majority of the Andronovans were assimilated pre-Indoeuropeans (R1a) from Western Siberia.


The Corded Ware era warrior was also similar to the yamnaya sample.

How?

[Bloodnigger]

Yes, and not. Yes, there was a yamnaya expansion into Western Siberia, but there is a problem with this: R1b yamnaya samples from the Volga valley and R1a Andronovo samples from Western Siberia. Maybe the majority of the Andronovans were assimilated pre-Indoeuropeans (R1a) from Western Siberia.



How?

Took this from the comments
U5b1, H1b, H2a, H1b, H1a, H2a, H6 (the mtdna taken from the CW skeletons) Same ones from Yamna.

Wasn't there R1a also found in Yamnaya?

[blogen]

Took this from the comments
U5b1, H1b, H2a, H1b, H1a, H2a, H6 (the mtdna taken from the CW skeletons) Same ones from Yamna.
Wasn't there R1a also found in Yamnaya?

Where?

[Peikko]

Ukko, :) we are trying a serious discussion, not a penis comparison contest.



Maybe Nokia was invented 7500 years ago by that R1a hunter from Karelia ??? And you were hiding it so long. :)

I think Ukko is just pulling things out of his ass (because he's karl and that's what karl does). But the arrival of Finnic language might coincide with the arrival of Iron Age to Finland around 500BC.

[Äijä]

I think Ukko is just pulling things out of his ass (because he's karl and that's what karl does). But the arrival of Finnic language might coincide with the arrival of Iron Age to Finland around 500BC.

You know I am Finnish and you keep spreading this shit about Karl, maybe you should be banned for that.




My academic dissertation "Bidrag till Fennoskandiens språkliga förhistoria i tid och rum" ("Spatiotemporal Contributions to the Linguistic Prehistory of Fennoscandia") is an interdisciplinary study of the linguistic prehistory of Northern Europe chiefly in the Iron Age (ca. 700 BC―AD 1200), but also to some extent in the Bronze Age (ca. 1700―700 BC) and the Early Finnish Middle Ages (ca. AD 1200―1323). The disciplines represented in this study are Germanistics, Nordistics, Finnougristics, history and archaeology. The language-forms studied are Proto-Germanic, Proto-Scandinavian, Proto-Finnic and Proto-Sami. This dissertation uses historical-comparative linguistics and especially loanword study to examine the relative and absolute chronology of the sound changes that have taken place in the proto-forms of the Germanic, Finnic and Samic languages. Phonetic history is the basis of historical linguistics studying the diachronic development of languages. To my knowledge, this study is the first in the history of the disciplines mentioned above to examine the systematic dating of the phonetic development of these proto-languages in relation to each other. In addition to the dating and relating of the phonetic development of the proto-languages, I study Fennoscandian toponyms. The oldest datable and etymologizable place-names throw new light on the ethnic history and history of settlement of Fennoscandia. For instance, I deal with the etymology of the following place-names: Ahvenanmaa/Åland, Eura(joki), Inari(järvi), Kemi(joki), Kvenland, Kymi(joki), Sarsa, Satakunta, Vanaja, Vantaa and Ähtäri.

My dissertation shows that Proto-Germanic, Proto-Scandinavian, Proto-Finnic and Proto-Sami all date to different periods of the Iron Age. I argue that the present study along with my earlier published research also proves that a (West-)Uralic language – the pre-form of the Finnic and Samic languages – was spoken in the region of the present-day Finland in the Bronze Age, but not earlier than that. In the centuries before the Common Era, Proto-Sami was spoken in the whole region of what is now called Finland, excluding Lapland. At the beginning of the Common Era, Proto-Sami was spoken in the whole region of Finland, including Southern Finland, from where the Sami idiom first began to recede. An archaic (Northwest-)Indo-European language and a subsequently extinct Paleo-European language were likely spoken in what is now called Finland and Estonia, when the linguistic ancestors of the Finns and the Sami arrived in the eastern and northern Baltic Sea region from the Volga-Kama region probably at the beginning of the Bronze Age. For example, the names Suomi ʻFinlandʼ and Viro ʻEstoniaʼ are likely to have been borrowed from the Indo-European idiom in question. (Proto-)Germanic waves of influence have come from Scandinavia to Finland since the Bronze Age. A considerable part of the Finnic and Samic vocabulary is indeed Germanic loanwords of different ages which form strata in these languages. Besides mere etymological research, these numerous Germanic loanwords make it possible to relate to each other the temporal development of the language-forms that have been in contact with each other. That is what I have done in my extensive dissertation, which attempts to be both a detailed and a holistic treatise.


https://helda.helsinki.fi/handle/10138/135714

[Äijä]

The N1c1 fits perfectly with what Heikkilä writes, a Bronze Age arrival to Estonia of Finnic speakers.

I am not that focused on the Germanic or Sami side yet, when we pinpoint the Finnic carriers lines we can start start finding the likely language shifters.

My argument has been that L1022 fits to be a certain language carrier for Baltic Finnic from Estonia to Finland.

I also argue that L550 is more plausible to also be similar, same dating for the split from VL29, it just spread wider but in origin it is most likely Finnic also.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/SNP-N-TREE.jpg


http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/


Mälar type of axe spread, claimed to be an Bronze Age colonisation of Russia from Sveland, I consider more plausible spread from Volga to Baltic and Scandinavia.

http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g452/HuckleberryXXXFinn/Maumllaraxe_zpsda816718.jpg~original


http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi1.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi2.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi3.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi4.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi6.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi7.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi8.jpg

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomensynty.html

[Peikko]

You know I am Finnish and you keep spreading this shit about Karl, maybe you should be banned for that.

https://helda.helsinki.fi/handle/10138/135714
I know that study, I posted it in this forum. It doesn't say that Finnics spread bronze. Bronze age culture started in Finland 1500BCE.

I'm convinced that you're karl. Like what's with the Albo bashing? karl used to do that too. Just putting Finnish flag in your profile doesn't change your style and the way you write and your overall behaviour.

And no Finn would have some of your opinions and worldviews like this Finnic-Germanic bullshit, which is 100% karl, the Estonian with low natnational self esteem.

[Äijä]

I know that study, I posted it in this forum. It doesn't say that Finnics spread bronze. Bronze age culture started in Finland 1500BCE.

I'm convinced that you're karl. Like what's with the Albo bashing? karl used to do that too. Just putting Finnish flag in your profile doesn't change your style and the way you write and your overall behaviour.

And no Finn would have some of your opinions and worldviews like this Finnic-Germanic bullshit, which is 100% karl, the Estonian with low natnational self esteem.


HEIKKILÄ


Finns and the Sami arrived in the eastern and northern Baltic Sea region from the Volga-Kama region probably at the beginning of the Bronze Age.

Yes, it is my theory that the arrival is connected to metal working/trade.

In Finland where the Germanic and Sami groups, it had two Bronze Age cultures.

The Baltic Finnic language and culture spread from Estonia, scientific fact.

So are the close relations to the Germanic language and culture, it is not BS, it is a scientific fact.

Finland as Baltic Finnic came to be in the Iron and Viking Age expansions, scientific fact.

[Peikko]

HEIKKILÄ



Yes, it is my theory that the arrival is connected to metal working/trade.

In Finland where the Germanic and Sami groups, it had two Bronze Age cultures.

The Baltic Finnic language and culture spread from Estonia, scientific fact.

So are the close relations to the Germanic language and culture, it is not BS, it is a scientific fact.

Finland as Baltic Finnic came to be in the Iron and Viking Age expansions, scientific fact.

"Scientific fact" lol. Bronze Age came to Finland from Scandinavia karl. Ever heard of the Nordic bronze age? or maybe Estonian schools don't teach that. Back to high school, boyo.

[Äijä]

"Scientific fact" lol. Bronze Age came to Finland from Scandinavia karl. Ever heard of the Nordic bronze age? or maybe Estonian schools don't teach that. Back tito high school, boyo.

You sound like a nigger.

And tell what is not true in the sentences that have the label scientific fact?

[Peikko]

Yes, it is my theory that the arrival is connected to metal working/trade.
Iron perhaps.


In Finland where the Germanic and Sami groups, it had two Bronze Age cultures.
The inland population, which are the ancestors of modern Saami, had different bronze age, yes. Germanic language in Finland is disputed. The study is not confirmed by other scientists yet and Jaska was sceptical.
It's not a scientific fact.


Finnic language and culture spread from Estonia, scientific fact.

So are the close relations to the Germanic language and culture, it is not BS, it is a scientific fact.
nobody's disputing this, you just have a pathological need to bring up Estonia in every sentence.


Finland as Baltic Finnic came to be in the Iron and Viking Age expansions, scientific fact.
What the fuck do vikings have to do with anything?


You sound like a nigger.

And tell what is not true in the sentences that have the label scientific fact?
Happy?

[Äijä]

Happy?

No I am not.

You seem to focus just on Finland, not even to the Baltic Sea region, not to mention the bigger picture of Bronze Age in Europe.

Maybe you should read again what I wrote and quoted before? I have not placed Baltic Finns in most of Finland in the start of Bronze Age, that would be Sami area at that time.

The Baltic Finns are in Estonia at that time, they seem to spread in Sweden and down the Baltic coast looking at the DNA trail.

You said Germanic connections with Baltic Finnic is BS, in reality it is crucial to scientists studying the ethnogenesis.
Estonian history is Baltic Finnish history, focusing on Finland will not get you any answers alone.

Who disputes Germanics being in Finland? We have thousands of place names like HARJAVALTA, anyone disputing their presence is mental. :bored:
Just looking at the I1 haplo in Finland should ring some bells..:rolleyes:

Can you point where Jaska was sceptical? He seem to think highly of Heikkilä from what I have observed.

Viking Age is the period most of Finland became Baltic Finnic, you have some other name for the period?

[Äijä]

If you like to focus only on Finland then you should study the Sami, folklore connects them to travelling merchants in Northern Russia, that is what they most likely where doing in Finland and Scandinavia originally.

Again, I would bet it relates to trading with metals.

[Peikko]

You seem to focus just on Finland, not even to the Baltic Sea region, not to mention the bigger picture of Bronze Age in Europe.

Why would I care about history of others?


Maybe you should read again what I wrote and quoted before? I have not placed Baltic Finns in most of Finland in the start of Bronze Age, that would be Sami area at that time.

Tell that to the bronze age Finns.


The Baltic Finns are in Estonia at that time, they seem to spread in Sweden and down the Baltic coast looking at the DNA trail.
Sweden? M'kay.


You said Germanic connections with Baltic Finnic is BS, in reality it is crucial to scientists studying the ethnogenesis.

I didn't say it's BS.


Estonian history is Baltic Finnish history, focusing on Finland will not get you any answers alone.

Estonian history is Estonian history, but history of Finland is another book.


Who disputes Germanics being in Finland? We have thousands of place names like HARJAVALTA, anyone disputing their presence is mental. :bored:
Just looking at the I1 haplo in Finland should ring some bells..:rolleyes:

Can you point where Jaska was sceptical? He seem to think highly of Heikkilä from what I have observed.

Viking Age is the period most of Finland became Baltic Finnic, you have some other name for the period?
Most of Finland didn't become anything until much later. Finnic was spoken only in coastal regions. And Viking Age started some 300 years later.

[Äijä]

Why would I care about history of others?



Estonian history is Estonian history, but history of Finland is another book.


Most of Finland didn't become anything until much later. Finnic was spoken only in coastal regions. And Viking Age started some 300 years later.

Finlands history with this culture and language goes back to the Iron Age, anything before that is prior to the ethnogenesis and is not directly connected to us.

That cultural and linguistic package came to us from Estonia, they are our closest relatives in every way.

I dont see Scandinavians considering their ancient history and ethnogenesis as separate from the others.

Finland would not exist as it is without Baltic Finns from Estonia, you will just have to live with that. :thumb001:

[Peikko]

Finlands history with this culture and language goes back to the Iron Age, anything before that is prior to the ethnogenesis and is not directly connected to us.

That cultural and linguistic package came to us from Estonia, they are our closest relatives in every way.

I dont see Scandinavians considering their ancient history and ethnogenesis as separate from the others.

Finland would not exist as it is without Baltic Finns from Estonia, you will just have to live with that. :thumb001:

Just change the flag in your profile, okay?

[Harkonnen]

Why would I care about history of others?

You are Finnic. Finnic history is your history you fucking retard.



Tell that to the bronze age Finns.



There are no Bronze Age Finns in Finland. There are Saamis, some Paleos and Indoeuros. Retard.

[Äijä]

Just change the flag in your profile, okay?

Change your signature, Kalevala is connected to Estonians also, it is like you are living in a fantasy or just very good at trolling. :D

[Harkonnen]

Change your signature, Kalevala is connected to Estonians also, it is like you are living in a fantasy or just very good at trolling. :D

He is a nigger. I'm sure of it.

[Äijä]

He is a nigger. I'm sure of it.

Or some of the youth degenerates by just watching niggers in TV. :confused:

[Harkonnen]

Or some of the youth degenerates by just watching niggers in TV. :confused:

If we'd live in a civilized age he'd be shot for treason.

[Peikko]

You are Finnic. Finnic history is your history you fucking retard.
D'oh. Estonian history doesn't equate to Finnic history and Estonians didn't even exist at that time.



There are no Bronze Age Finns in Finland. There are Saamis, some Paleos and Indoeuros. Retard.
All of which contributed to what eventually became modern Finns.

[Äijä]

D'oh. Estonian history doesn't equate to Finnic history and Estonians didn't even exist at that time.


All of which contributed to what eventually became modern Finns.

:picard2:

[Peikko]

Change your signature, Kalevala is connected to Estonians also, it is like you are living in a fantasy or just very good at trolling. :D
Kalevala was written and compiled by a Finnish poet and the painting in my signature was painted by a Finnish painter.


He is a nigger. I'm sure of it.
I bet you 1000€ I'm more Finnish than you. Just take a look at your avatar, lol. Clown.

[Harkonnen]

D'oh. Estonian history doesn't equate to Finnic history and Estonians didn't even exist at that time.

Estonian history is part of Finnic history.



All of which contributed to what eventually became modern Finns.

They sure did. But according to your logic all other contributed to modern Finns ...except.. TADAA.. Baltic Finns.

Seriously, go fuck yourself.

[Äijä]

How is it possible that even foreigners can understand this presentation but Peikko cant, I even used pictures. :picard2:


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?159505-Reich-Yamnaya-brought-R1b-to-Europe&p=3410179&viewfull=1#post3410179

[Äijä]

Kalevala was written and compiled by a Finnish poet and the painting in my signature was painted by a Finnish painter.


I bet you 1000€ I'm more Finnish than you. Just take a look at your avatar, lol. Clown.

You must have some really suspicious family background or weird ideology for having this mental block about a very simple concept.

[Peikko]

How is it possible that even foreigners can understand this presentation but Peikko cant, I even used pictures. :picard2:


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?159505-Reich-Yamnaya-brought-R1b-to-Europe&p=3410179&viewfull=1#post3410179

You think that people, who brought Finnic to Finland were Estonians? Or that they called themselves Estonian? Lol. For all we know they called themselves Suomalaiset and Estonians are just rejects they didn't want take with them.

[Äijä]

You think that people, who brought Finnic to Finland were Estonians? Or that they called themselves Estonian? Lol. For all we know they called themselves Suomalaiset and Estonians are just rejects they didn't want take with them.

They where BALTIC FINNS then, Estonians are BALTIC FINNS today.

Your history stops in the sea shore, those men spread all the way to England, Russia and FINLAND, proven by DNA.

Calling them rejects is spitting on your ancestors. :picard2:

[Harkonnen]

You think that people, who brought Finnic to Finland were Estonians? Or that they called themselves Estonian? Lol. For all we know they called themselves Suomalaiset and Estonians are just rejects they didn't want take with them.

Seriously, how fucking stupid can you be to not to realize that Finns, Estonians, Karelians, Vepsians, Votians, Izhorians, Livonians (RIP), Setos etc, all share the same Proto-Finnic root. Sure all of these people might have different later influences, but it is the Proto-Finnic root which makes them Finnic. Finns have no monopoly on Finnic.


You must have some really suspicious family background or weird ideology for having this mental block about a very simple concept.

He's just a lost postmodern fag who does not understand the concept of roots.

[Peikko]

They where BALTIC FINNS then, Estonians are BALTIC FINNS today.

Your history stops in the sea shore, those men spread all the way to England, Russia and FINLAND, proven by DNA.

Calling them rejects is spitting on your ancestors. :picard2:

No it's not because my ancestors are the ones who came to Finland, not the ones who stayed in Estonia. Finns and Estonians share common ancestry, but Finns don't descend from Estonians get that in your skull. Those people spoke proto-Finnic, not Estonian.

[Peikko]

Seriously, how fucking stupid can you be to not to realize that Finns, Estonians, Karelians, Vepsians, Votians, Izhorians, Livonians (RIP), Setos etc, all share the same Proto-Finnic root. Sure all of these people might have different later influences, but it is the Proto-Finnic root which makes them Finnic. Finns have no monopoly on Finnic.
.
Proto-Finnic is not the same as Estonian. Estonian language split some 400 years later.

[Harkonnen]

No it's not because my ancestors are the ones who came to Finland, not the ones who stayed in Estonia. Finns and Estonians share common ancestry, but Finns don't descend from Estonians get that in your skull. Those people spoke proto-Finnic, not Estonian.

Nobody has claimed they spoke Estonian. This is your own retard idea.

[Äijä]

No it's not because my ancestors are the ones who came to Finland, not the ones who stayed in Estonia. Finns and Estonians share common ancestry, but Finns don't descend from Estonians get that in your skull. Those people spoke proto-Finnic, not Estonian.

They spoke the same language, for centuries, get that in your head.

Do you understand that there was constant contact over the Finnish Gulf always, families stayed months at a time in the other side up to historical times.

This contact was disturbed only by Russian agression and invasion.

The countries should be united in the hearts and minds of every Finnish nationalist.

[Harkonnen]

The countries should be united in the hearts and minds of every Finnish nationalist.

We should do all possible to help Estonia to develop, but this fucker just keeps on hating them, because some loonie Estonian hurt his fag feelings on a stupid internet forum.

[Äijä]

We should do all possible to help Estonia to develop, but this fucker just keeps on hating them, because some loonie Estonian hurt his fag feelings on a stupid internet forum.

I am a Tavastian-Karelian, I have Ingrian and Estonians friends, had an Estonian gf, I have met several Estonians with Finnish, Ingrian and Karelian ancestry.

I even like Savonians. ;)

To me we are all brothers and sisters, IMO we should open our borders to the Volga Finnic instead of Somalis and Arabs.

[Peikko]

We should do all possible to help Estonia to develop, but this fucker just keeps on hating them, because some loonie Estonian hurt his fag feelings on a stupid internet forum.

Maybe you haven't been around that long, but having all the shit karl=ukko has said about Finns past ~5 years or so would make you dislike them very much. Not to mention all these sock puppets, so that he could make Finns look bad with his bs.

[Harkonnen]

Indeed those Volga fuckers should move here. We have a party.

[Äijä]

Maybe you haven't been around that long, but having all the shit karl=ukko has said about Finns past ~5 years or so would make you dislike them very much. Not to mention all these sock puppets, so that he could make Finns look bad dith his bs.

Miten vitussa jaksat jauhaa tuota paskaa, kukaan virolainen ei varmaan kirjoittele täällä suomalaisena.

How am I making Finns look bad by studying and discussing our interesting history all the way to the Volga-Kama urheimat?

[Peikko]

Miten vitussa jaksat jauhaa tuota paskaa, kukaan virolainen ei varmaan kirjoittele täällä suomalaisena.

For a fact.

[Äijä]

For a fact.

Fakta on että sulla rupeaa iso pyörä heittämään.

[Peikko]

Fakta on että sulla rupeaa iso pyörä heittämään.

Postaa kuva, jossa sulla on kyltti, että "mä en oo kalle", niin sitten ehkä uskon.

[Äijä]

Postaa kuva, jossa sulla on kyltti, että "mä en oo kalle", niin sitten ehkä uskon.

I can live without you believing but quit trolling these threads.

[Peikko]

I can live without you believing but quit trolling these threads.

Thought so. "It's a historical fact". How many times have I heard that phrase?

[Äijä]

Thought so. "It's a historical fact". How many times have I heard that phrase?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Kalevipoeg.jpg

[Peikko]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Kalevipoeg.jpg
Remember when you tried to claim kalevala as Estonian? That was a hoot.

[Äijä]

Remember when you tried to claim kalevala as Estonian? That was a hoot.


The Finnish word Kaleva has a known cognate only in the Karelian and
Estonian languages, which means that the word seems to have a rather
limited distribution in the Finnic languages. The compound Kalevanpoika
[‘Kalevaʼs son’] ‘strong giantʼ also occurs in Ingria, including the Votic
region of Ingria


The father of the Finnish written language Mikael Agricola (ca. 1510–
1557) mentions Caleuanpojat in his list of Tavastian pre-Christian gods in
1551 (SSA 2001 s.v. Kaleva).
Finnish farms (and families) called Kaleva are found in historical documents from the 15th century onwards.

Thecapital of Estonia, Tallinn, and the homophonic name of a heroic giant is
mentioned in Old Russian chronicles and folk tales (bylinas) in the form
Kolyvan from the year 1223 CE onwards. The town name Kolyvan is
probably to be read as *Kalevan(linna) ‘Kalevaʼs (burg)ʼ (USN 1988: 94;
Huurre 2003: 250).

The final vowel in the name Kolyvan points to that the
Estonian kalev goes back to an earlier form *kaleva, identical with the
Finno-Karelian stem form. An even earlier attestation of the name Kaleva
might be found in a source from a distant country.

The Arab geographer Muhammad Al-Idrisi (ca. 1100–1165) from Sicily began the work on
drawing a world map with a commentary in 1140 at the court of and by the
commission of the Norman King Roger II of Sicily (1095–1154).

Al-Idrisi published his famous world map and its commentary (Tabula Rogeriana) in
1154. On the map, a small fortress town spelled qlwry is mentioned as
situated in the country of ˊslˊndh /aslandh/ ‘Estoniaʼ (cf. OGut Aistland
‘Estoniaʼ).

Vowels are not written in Arabic so they have to be added, but the first three consonants qlw in qlwry fit with
the ones in the Finnish–Estonian name Kalev(a).

When compared with the Old Russian name Kolyvan for Tallinn, it is possible that the burg and town
of qlwry really refers to Tallinn and contains the earliest known attestation
of Kaleva less than a hundred years after the end of the Viking Age, which
traditionally has been dated as ranging from 793 CE to 1066 CE or from
800 to 1050.

However, a more realistic starting point for the Nordic Viking Age would
be ca. 760 .

I wonder if qlwry actually stands for an Old Estonian compound *Kaleveeri
< *Kalevinveeri “Kalevaʼs hill(side)”

Kaleva and his Sons from Kalanti –
On the Etymology of Certain Names in Finnic Mythology

http://www.linguistics.fi/julkaisut/SKY2012/Heikkila.pdf

[curupira]

The genetic age is uncovering markers (R1a and R1b) which fit nicely, within the same timeframe, with the IE expansions. One should just follow the trail of single grave burials (testing those tall men buried in pompous graves, with large weapons by their side), in Mycenae, Central Europe, Italy, etc, to have an ever clearer view of it. So far, Gimbutas' theory is making perfect sense. We have noticed a large discontinuity between Neolithic and Bronze Age Europe. A shift towards the East, in autosomal terms. And two major y DNA haplogroups, from the steppes, which became very dominant, in the same timeframe of IE languages expansion. Looking at the genetic data, and comparing it to what we already know, I guess the steppes urheimat theory is the one which makes most sense, not the Anatolian. Bronze Age Europe and Neolithic Europe are quite different periods. The computer results which seemed to confirm the Anataolian theory of Renfrew are perhaps the only major reason I'm still cautious to say we could be 100% certain of Gimbutas' position.

[aherne]

The genetic age is uncovering markers (R1a and R1b) which fit nicely, within the same timeframe, with the IE expansions. One should just follow the trail of single grave burials (testing those tall men buried in pompous graves, with large weapons by their side), in Mycenas, Central Europe, Italy, etc, to have an ever clearer view of it. So far, Gimbutas' theory is making perfect sense. We have noticed a large discontinuity between Neolithic and Bronze Age Europe. A shift towards the East, in autosomal terms. And two major y DNA haplogroups, from the steppes, which became very dominant, in the same timeframe of IE languages expansion.

If so, how can you explain the dominant racial type in every European village, region, country is non-Aryan and that Aryan race is found in 20% at most and rarely in pure form. This to me says the Aryan element is less than what R1a/R1b would show. So how do you reconcile genetic data with racial data?

[Jackson]

If so, how can you explain the dominant racial type in every European village, region, country is non-Aryan and that Aryan race is found in 20% at most and rarely in pure form. This to me says the Aryan element is less than what R1a/R1b would show. So how do you reconcile genetic data with racial data?

Probably because the racial data is not good enough at detecting actual ancestry, so it needs to be improved to be in line with the genetic data.

[Graham]

There are markers for hair & eye colour and stuff. Not 100% accurate yet.


You can find that in other threads Aherne.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Pure bullshit.

1. The clades they found are eastern specific. If this was where it started then these would be all over europe but these clades didn't come to most of europe at all.
2. Wrong mtdna. If this was where PIE come from AND if this had anything to do with genetics, then it should be mainly H and V mtdna, not random middle east crap.
3. This r1b is found right next to a bunch of r1a. But this r1a never made it much past this point. Why did the r1b but not the r1a? One went 100% east and one 100% west?
4. There's no blond hair associated with r1b and there's no red hair associated with r1a. If these developed in the same place they would overlap.
5. Similar to above, mtdna for r1b and r1a are a lot different. This "northern hunter gatherer" thing is associated with U mtdna. There is some U among r1b heavy areas but it's not the main, and THIS is probably where this component comes from in them, a separate population absorbed in refugeum times.
6. this "ANE" component is much lower in high r1b populations. Having overlap is not the same as literally saying that these are the same people. This guy is completely incompetent if he actually believes this nonsense.
7. Time is all wrong. These idiots who have this theory predicted this stuff happened MUCH closer to historic times. That is the only way this crap could really work, but at this time r1a IS ALREADY HUGE, why would r1b be some tiny corner of russia only???
8. Clades are already split up. If this is the urheimat and r1b is so incredibly young (the data itself shatters this) then how come even this far back the modern clades already exist.
9. Concurrent r1b in spain. OOPS. Now NONE of these are the r1b that is most common today but NONE of these is one that it could have evolved from either, they are ALL dead ends. That means that r1b is already all over europe, but due to cremation we just aren't seeing all of it yet.
10. We have fairly conclusive evidence that mtdna is much older in europe than these dates, and that it spread from west to east. R1b is heavily tied to H mtdna.
11. Idiots on this fucking site have told me r1b is only 4k years old 1000 times. Now it's twice that. Wake me up when it's 15k years old and we'll know for sure where the homeland is (iberia or north africa most likely).

In short this paper proves the very opposite of what this idiot is claiming, he comes from the same propaganda school as the retard at eupedia.com. This data shows that r1b existed in europe 7500 years ago in ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME AREAS AS TODAY.

Now it's very hard to find hunter gatherer dna. Very hard. SUPER HARD. It's also only rich countries that can afford to do full sequencing, and these rich countries are all infested by social justice warrior anti-white "anti-racist" retards who only look for things that they think will confirm their beliefs. If they thought they would have found neanderthal DNA in humans they probably never would have sequenced them at all, for example. Svante Paabo said as much himself, that his whole point was to prove that there was NOT mixture of neanderthals in people today!

No one has really been testing for y-dna in iberia and north africa. Eventually they will have both the opportunity and the money and that will be the end of the controversy. Bell beaker is r1b, the so called "middle eastern" megalithic will turn out to have some r1b, magdalenians will turn out to be r1b. That's just fact, there is no real doubt of this. Guys like renfrew and oppenheimer wrote whole fucking books on this and so far every single thing they've said has been fairly prophetic. It's only internet fucksticks and social justice warrior fucktards who have worked hard to debunk the obvious reality.

Also r1b is nothing to do with indo-european languages. Anyone who thinks that is a complete fucking idiot. Basques are not IE and Iberia was not IE and pre-roman italy was not IE. THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE STOP SAYING THIS.

R1a locations may be indo-iranian origin. But maybe not. No one even knows for sure where r1a formed, but certainly not in the middle of some fucking glaciers in the ice age. NOTHING formed at the time they are suggesting, yamanaya. They have to have been formed way before that, especially given that we now know r1b is already split into a bunch of clades at this point!

[ALL]

There are markers .................

Meet my kin.
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf
http://i61.tinypic.com/1zcpteb.png
Soon they will release auDNA.

[Äijä]

Pure bullshit.

1. The clades they found are eastern specific. If this was where it started then these would be all over europe but these clades didn't come to most of europe at all.
2. Wrong mtdna. If this was where PIE come from AND if this had anything to do with genetics, then it should be mainly H and V mtdna, not random middle east crap.
3. This r1b is found right next to a bunch of r1a. But this r1a never made it much past this point. Why did the r1b but not the r1a? One went 100% east and one 100% west?
4. There's no blond hair associated with r1b and there's no red hair associated with r1a. If these developed in the same place they would overlap.
5. Similar to above, mtdna for r1b and r1a are a lot different. This "northern hunter gatherer" thing is associated with U mtdna. There is some U among r1b heavy areas but it's not the main, and THIS is probably where this component comes from in them, a separate population absorbed in refugeum times.
6. this "ANE" component is much lower in high r1b populations. Having overlap is not the same as literally saying that these are the same people. This guy is completely incompetent if he actually believes this nonsense.
7. Time is all wrong. These idiots who have this theory predicted this stuff happened MUCH closer to historic times. That is the only way this crap could really work, but at this time r1a IS ALREADY HUGE, why would r1b be some tiny corner of russia only???
8. Clades are already split up. If this is the urheimat and r1b is so incredibly young (the data itself shatters this) then how come even this far back the modern clades already exist.
9. Concurrent r1b in spain. OOPS. Now NONE of these are the r1b that is most common today but NONE of these is one that it could have evolved from either, they are ALL dead ends. That means that r1b is already all over europe, but due to cremation we just aren't seeing all of it yet.
10. We have fairly conclusive evidence that mtdna is much older in europe than these dates, and that it spread from west to east. R1b is heavily tied to H mtdna.
11. Idiots on this fucking site have told me r1b is only 4k years old 1000 times. Now it's twice that. Wake me up when it's 15k years old and we'll know for sure where the homeland is (iberia or north africa most likely).

In short this paper proves the very opposite of what this idiot is claiming, he comes from the same propaganda school as the retard at eupedia.com. This data shows that r1b existed in europe 7500 years ago in ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME AREAS AS TODAY.

Now it's very hard to find hunter gatherer dna. Very hard. SUPER HARD. It's also only rich countries that can afford to do full sequencing, and these rich countries are all infested by social justice warrior anti-white "anti-racist" retards who only look for things that they think will confirm their beliefs. If they thought they would have found neanderthal DNA in humans they probably never would have sequenced them at all, for example. Svante Paabo said as much himself, that his whole point was to prove that there was NOT mixture of neanderthals in people today!

No one has really been testing for y-dna in iberia and north africa. Eventually they will have both the opportunity and the money and that will be the end of the controversy. Bell beaker is r1b, the so called "middle eastern" megalithic will turn out to have some r1b, magdalenians will turn out to be r1b. That's just fact, there is no real doubt of this. Guys like renfrew and oppenheimer wrote whole fucking books on this and so far every single thing they've said has been fairly prophetic. It's only internet fucksticks and social justice warrior fucktards who have worked hard to debunk the obvious reality.

Also r1b is nothing to do with indo-european languages. Anyone who thinks that is a complete fucking idiot. Basques are not IE and Iberia was not IE and pre-roman italy was not IE. THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE STOP SAYING THIS.

R1a locations may be indo-iranian origin. But maybe not. No one even knows for sure where r1a formed, but certainly not in the middle of some fucking glaciers in the ice age. NOTHING formed at the time they are suggesting, yamanaya. They have to have been formed way before that, especially given that we now know r1b is already split into a bunch of clades at this point!

Always nice to hear from you .:D

What is your theory for N1c1?

[Graham]

I know it's a bit unorthodox, but I PCA'd..


Identifying proximate ancestral populations for present-day Europeans.
Best reference populations for present-day Europeans


At N=2 most populations appear to be a mixture of two different elements which are EN/MN and LN/BA.

There are interesting exceptions such as the Lithuanians (who have LN/BA plus SHG, consistent with our finding that they have more hunter-gatherer ancestry than Late Neolithic Europeans).

For most other northern European populations it seems that the best N=2 model involves admixture between LN/BA and MN, consistent with our observations about the dilution of the ancestry brought into Late Neolithic Europe in modern populations.

Conversely, modern southern Europeans appear to be a mixture of EN/MN and LN/BA. This does not necessarily imply that LN/BA populations of central northern Europe admixed into the populations of southern Europe as the LN/BA central Europeans may be the best proxy in our dataset for the ANE-bearing populations that affected the entire European continent.

Unlike central Europe where the appearance of ANE-related populations can be dated to the Late Neolithic by the results of our paper, we do not know when such populations arrived elsewhere in Europe.

Did they arrive at the same time, as part of a general phenomenon affecting the entire European continent? Alternatively, did they arrive later, perhaps related to migrations from north to south that overlap the period of recorded..
LNBA = Late Neolthic/Bronze Age
EN = Early Neolithic
MN = Mid Neolithic
WHG = West Hunter Gatherer
EHG = East Hunter Gatherer
SHG = Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer


http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=55364&d=1424701326http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=55365&d=1424701354

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Always nice to hear from you .:D

What is your theory for N1c1?

I don't know really, but I guess it was always northerly.

[Äijä]

I don't know really, but I guess it was always northerly.

The oldest N* is from Balkans, I was not accurate.

N1c1 is northern eurasian, it fits perfectly with the Uralic urheimat in Volga-Kama, right on top of the Kurgan theory IE urheimait, linguistics support this well.

How they showed up there is a mystery that most dont think about much.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The oldest N* is from Balkans, I was not accurate.

N1c1 is northern eurasian, it fits perfectly with the Uralic urheimat in Volga-Kama, right on top of the Kurgan theory IE urheimait, linguistics support this well.

How they showed up there is a mystery that most dont think about much.


It makes sense, you can't have been on a glacier during ice age. That was once extreme north.

[Äijä]

It makes sense, you can't have been on a glacier during ice age. That was once extreme north.

The Balkans are still fairly recent, I dont have much theories for the origins of the haplo, more occupied with those recent expansions usually.


http://www.yfull.com/tree/N/

[Jackson]

Pure bullshit.

1. The clades they found are eastern specific. If this was where it started then these would be all over europe but these clades didn't come to most of europe at all.
2. Wrong mtdna. If this was where PIE come from AND if this had anything to do with genetics, then it should be mainly H and V mtdna, not random middle east crap.
3. This r1b is found right next to a bunch of r1a. But this r1a never made it much past this point. Why did the r1b but not the r1a? One went 100% east and one 100% west?
4. There's no blond hair associated with r1b and there's no red hair associated with r1a. If these developed in the same place they would overlap.
5. Similar to above, mtdna for r1b and r1a are a lot different. This "northern hunter gatherer" thing is associated with U mtdna. There is some U among r1b heavy areas but it's not the main, and THIS is probably where this component comes from in them, a separate population absorbed in refugeum times.
6. this "ANE" component is much lower in high r1b populations. Having overlap is not the same as literally saying that these are the same people. This guy is completely incompetent if he actually believes this nonsense.
7. Time is all wrong. These idiots who have this theory predicted this stuff happened MUCH closer to historic times. That is the only way this crap could really work, but at this time r1a IS ALREADY HUGE, why would r1b be some tiny corner of russia only???
8. Clades are already split up. If this is the urheimat and r1b is so incredibly young (the data itself shatters this) then how come even this far back the modern clades already exist.
9. Concurrent r1b in spain. OOPS. Now NONE of these are the r1b that is most common today but NONE of these is one that it could have evolved from either, they are ALL dead ends. That means that r1b is already all over europe, but due to cremation we just aren't seeing all of it yet.
10. We have fairly conclusive evidence that mtdna is much older in europe than these dates, and that it spread from west to east. R1b is heavily tied to H mtdna.
11. Idiots on this fucking site have told me r1b is only 4k years old 1000 times. Now it's twice that. Wake me up when it's 15k years old and we'll know for sure where the homeland is (iberia or north africa most likely).

In short this paper proves the very opposite of what this idiot is claiming, he comes from the same propaganda school as the retard at eupedia.com. This data shows that r1b existed in europe 7500 years ago in ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME AREAS AS TODAY.

Now it's very hard to find hunter gatherer dna. Very hard. SUPER HARD. It's also only rich countries that can afford to do full sequencing, and these rich countries are all infested by social justice warrior anti-white "anti-racist" retards who only look for things that they think will confirm their beliefs. If they thought they would have found neanderthal DNA in humans they probably never would have sequenced them at all, for example. Svante Paabo said as much himself, that his whole point was to prove that there was NOT mixture of neanderthals in people today!

No one has really been testing for y-dna in iberia and north africa. Eventually they will have both the opportunity and the money and that will be the end of the controversy. Bell beaker is r1b, the so called "middle eastern" megalithic will turn out to have some r1b, magdalenians will turn out to be r1b. That's just fact, there is no real doubt of this. Guys like renfrew and oppenheimer wrote whole fucking books on this and so far every single thing they've said has been fairly prophetic. It's only internet fucksticks and social justice warrior fucktards who have worked hard to debunk the obvious reality.

Also r1b is nothing to do with indo-european languages. Anyone who thinks that is a complete fucking idiot. Basques are not IE and Iberia was not IE and pre-roman italy was not IE. THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE STOP SAYING THIS.

R1a locations may be indo-iranian origin. But maybe not. No one even knows for sure where r1a formed, but certainly not in the middle of some fucking glaciers in the ice age. NOTHING formed at the time they are suggesting, yamanaya. They have to have been formed way before that, especially given that we now know r1b is already split into a bunch of clades at this point!

Not all were eastern specific, clearly the eastern specific brother of L51 was dominant there - but the close precursor of European R1b was found there - not to mention this eastern R1b is found in low frequencies in Europe already. Nobody is arguing that western European R1b all came from this portion of Yamnaya, but likely they came from a more westerly group which was similar in autosomal DNA but L51 dominant instead. They even say in the article that the Samara group is not a perfect match for the groups that spawned complexes such as CW, but that it is clearly very similar to it.

The R1b1 found in Samara was genetically very similar to the other EHG found in Karelia to the north who carried R1a, while the R1b1 found in Spain was autosomally the same as the other EN farmers from that site and from Europe as a whole. Clearly it shows that R1b1 was fairly widely spread - likely it was picked up by the farmers somewhere in the Near East or Europe. Both the R1b1 in El Trocs and Samara are many mutations behind that found later in Samara, which shares most of it's mutations with European R1b. Clearly if the right sort of M269 was so dominant in this area of Russia (and presumably other nearby areas, although we should wait on more aDNA) and it is clearly developed, it seems pretty unlikely that R1b1 elsewhere could also undergo the same mutations.

The point is the R1b found in Bell Beaker remains (genetically similar to modern northern Europeans) and in modern northern Europeans is much closer to the Yamnaya R1b than to the earlier Samaran R1b or the El Trocs R1b. It may be that R1b1 was broadly spread indeed, but these mutations had to develop somewhere, and at the moment somewhere around the western steppe seems most likely, but we won't know for sure until the extent of this M269 in aDNA is established.

That you first get relatively 'modern' looking (autosomally) individuals carrying relatively 'modern' looking R1b in Germany and they are genetically modern because they have this 50% or so western steppe-like ancestry that wasn't present even as far east as Hungary prior to that certainly strongly suggests that the two are related.

It's funny how you are resorting to some sort of political conspiracy between Eupedia and Reich to explain why they must be wrong.

The data shows R1b1 was in Early Neolithic Spain in one individual (a very low frequency considering all Neolithic individuals), and that it was miles away in terms of mutations from modern western European R1b1. It's not really even surprising, people had speculated that the might be the case before. It's pretty cool and interesting nonetheless, and shouldn't be disregarded of course - but you have to look at the totality of the situation.

I don't see why you are getting so upset over these findings. That you are resorting to complaining about anti-white politics/propaganda etc just shows you've bought in to their consideration that ethno-cultural identities can be regarded because at some point in the past they came from somewhere else. It doesn't de-legitimize that at all, so stop pulling modern cultural politics into the discussion here and elsewhere Bobo.

Most important thing, calm down. Go and put the kettle on. :)

Also a note - the presence of the clades that have been found line up very well apparently with the predicted ones, so if anything that legitimizes the ages that people have suggested based on mutation rates.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Not all were eastern specific, clearly the eastern specific brother of L51 was dominant there - but the close precursor of European R1b was found there - not to mention this eastern R1b is found in low frequencies in Europe already. Nobody is arguing that western European R1b all came from this portion of Yamnaya, but likely they came from a more westerly group which was similar in autosomal DNA but L51 dominant instead. They even say in the article that the Samara group is not a perfect match for the groups that spawned complexes such as CW, but that it is clearly very similar to it.


L21 is germanic, and it doesn't exist in all of europe at least not significantly.



The R1b1 found in Samara was genetically very similar to the other EHG found in Karelia to the north who carried R1a, while the R1b1 found in Spain was autosomally the same as the other EN farmers from that site and from Europe as a whole. Clearly it shows that R1b1 was fairly widely spread - likely it was picked up by the farmers somewhere in the Near East or Europe. Both the R1b1 in El Trocs and Samara are many mutations behind that found later in Samara, which shares most of it's mutations with European R1b. Clearly if the right sort of M269 was so dominant in this area of Russia (and presumably other nearby areas, although we should wait on more aDNA) and it is clearly developed, it seems pretty unlikely that R1b1 elsewhere could also undergo the same mutations.



Reich is saying literally this is the PIE homeland. Obviously r1b is widespread already. Saying that people have taken on clinal autosomal similarities to their neighbors does not necessarily mean much of anything. We don't know when that happened or how, exactly. Coould be the r1b are still pretty separate from farmers at this point and already have this, and have had it since before the deglaciation.

R1b can't come from much further east really because there's nowhere for them to have come from.




The point is the R1b found in Bell Beaker remains (genetically similar to modern northern Europeans) and in modern northern Europeans is much closer to the Yamnaya R1b than to the earlier Samaran R1b or the El Trocs R1b. It may be that R1b1 was broadly spread indeed, but these mutations had to develop somewhere, and at the moment somewhere around the western steppe seems most likely, but we won't know for sure until the extent of this M269 in aDNA is established.

That you first get relatively 'modern' looking (autosomally) individuals carrying relatively 'modern' looking R1b in Germany and they are genetically modern because they have this 50% or so western steppe-like ancestry that wasn't present even as far east as Hungary prior to that certainly strongly suggests that the two are related.



Relation doesn't mean anything. Of course they are related, they are brother clades. The idea this is PIE homeland does not follow from any of this, it should not even make people twitch an eyebrow.




It's funny how you are resorting to some sort of political conspiracy between Eupedia and Reich to explain why they must be wrong.



They are both highly political. It's not a conspiracy theory when it's right out in the open. Print out some thread names and put them on a dartboard, throw a dart and chances are you will land on one of the many swarty folk "conspiracies" of swarty supremacy. Well, a typical ivy league or european school today makes the loonies on this board seem positively objective.




The data shows R1b1 was in Early Neolithic Spain in one individual (a very low frequency considering all Neolithic individuals), and that it was miles away in terms of mutations from modern western European R1b1. It's not really even surprising, people had speculated that the might be the case before. It's pretty cool and interesting nonetheless, and shouldn't be disregarded of course - but you have to look at the totality of the situation.


Relation doesn't mean anything. Of course they are related, they are brother clades. The idea this is PIE homeland does not follow from any of this, it should not even make people twitch an eyebrow.




It's funny how you are resorting to some sort of political conspiracy between Eupedia and Reich to explain why they must be wrong.



So what? Do you really think that some skeleton is the actual father of europe? Clearly the clades are already split at this point because we see leaf many clades already. This is also a common north african version of r1b. If anything this shows that the spread of r1b 7500 years ago was very similar to today.




I don't see why you are getting so upset over these findings.

Who said I am upset? I am laughing my ass off at this pathetic idiocy.



That you are resorting to complaining about anti-white politics/propaganda etc just shows you've bought in to their consideration that ethno-cultural identities can be regarded because at some point in the past they came from somewhere else. It doesn't de-legitimize that at all, so stop pulling modern cultural politics into the discussion here and elsewhere Bobo.

The entire basis of guys like this is politics, that is the only reason that they care about this shit. I don't think it legitimizes anything either way, but it's obviously untrue and obviously politically motivated.




Most important thing, calm down. Go and put the kettle on. :)


:rolleyes:




Also a note - the presence of the clades that have been found line up very well apparently with the predicted ones,

No it doesn't.



so if anything that legitimizes the ages that people have suggested based on mutation rates.

Couldn't disagree more. I read on here every day I am active how r1b is just 4-5k years old.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Re-read? Everyone has already wasted way too much time reading your nonsense ramblings, irrelevant attacks, and your thread vandalization. Enough already. Get lost, and go whine about Maciamo, blonde hair, and Bolsheviks somewhere else.


Banned from anthrogenica in 11 posts. What a fucking cunt. She claimed I made ad hominem attacks, she is really pissed over my obviously true accusations over politics. She only confirms this with a ban though, stupid piece of filth.

[Jackson]

L21 is germanic, and it doesn't exist in all of europe at least not significantly.



Reich is saying literally this is the PIE homeland. Obviously r1b is widespread already. Saying that people have taken on clinal autosomal similarities to their neighbors does not necessarily mean much of anything. We don't know when that happened or how, exactly. Coould be the r1b are still pretty separate from farmers at this point and already have this, and have had it since before the deglaciation.

R1b can't come from much further east really because there's nowhere for them to have come from.



Relation doesn't mean anything. Of course they are related, they are brother clades. The idea this is PIE homeland does not follow from any of this, it should not even make people twitch an eyebrow.



They are both highly political. It's not a conspiracy theory when it's right out in the open. Print out some thread names and put them on a dartboard, throw a dart and chances are you will land on one of the many swarty folk "conspiracies" of swarty supremacy. Well, a typical ivy league or european school today makes the loonies on this board seem positively objective.



Relation doesn't mean anything. Of course they are related, they are brother clades. The idea this is PIE homeland does not follow from any of this, it should not even make people twitch an eyebrow.



So what? Do you really think that some skeleton is the actual father of europe? Clearly the clades are already split at this point because we see leaf many clades already. This is also a common north african version of r1b. If anything this shows that the spread of r1b 7500 years ago was very similar to today.


Who said I am upset? I am laughing my ass off at this pathetic idiocy.


The entire basis of guys like this is politics, that is the only reason that they care about this shit. I don't think it legitimizes anything either way, but it's obviously untrue and obviously politically motivated.


:rolleyes:


No it doesn't.



Couldn't disagree more. I read on here every day I am active how r1b is just 4-5k years old.

Lol, I've been here longer than you and I've never seen anyone write that R1b is 4-5k years old.

[Jackson]

Banned from anthrogenica in 11 posts. What a fucking cunt. She claimed I made ad hominem attacks, she is really pissed over my obviously true accusations over politics. She only confirms this with a ban though, stupid piece of filth.

Perhaps if you were more civilized you wouldn't get banned in 11 posts.

[welp]

muh swarthy conspiracies, dem jooz tryin to put da black haired irish "tronder" man down

The fact that you didn't even grasp Maciamo's agenda (protip: it ain't what you think it is) proves how ultimately retarded you are.

80% of Yamnas, the swarthoid ones, are drinking your tears and finding them delicious and the remaining 20% are putting on blackface as we speak.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Here are two cases where an entire major haplogroup has been found to date in one area without admixing: Yamnaya samples from Samara are all R1b+. Zoom out and all Russian samples so far have belonged to haplogroup R over a 5000 year span.

And if you don't think populations from entire regions of Europe can't migrate en masse to another and completely overrun the locals, looks no further than the Americas, where England, Spain, France, Portugal, the Netherlands and even Sweden colonized it over a very short period of time. These were already admixed European populations, but that is because the population density of Europe was already extremely heavy ca 1500 AD, and of course ca 3000 BC Europe wan't densely populated.

But wait, a practically complete replacement of genes, of a massive stretch of land over large distances in the historical period? No, it can't be...because "Bobo" says so. Now we have two major fact based papers saying the same thing happened, but only this time from Eastern Europe to Central and Western Europe, but we should believe "Bobo" because he makes fact based statements like "no they didn't" or "yes they did". So let's have it, aside from what you think or don't think, find some scientific study that disproves how haplogroups can or can't mix or how they can or can't migrate from the same general area during the same general time frame.


This guy is a serious idiot, too.

hallstatt and la tene stem from urnfeld culture are are obviously OBVIOUSLY indo-european and that stems from tumulous culture, which has continuity with unetice culture and all have links going far west and have continuity going back even further. R1b didn't come west in prehistory, it got pushed west in historic times by mongols etc.

We already know germans migrated west and where they went! What they found was germanic r1b, which probably only came west in historic times, and doesn't exactly dominate europe. If this were really the mythical PIE homeland that settled all of europe then this would be all over europe.... They "discovered" germans came from the east, this is amazing shit.

There's all these cultures we don't have DNA for, so I guess we can just pretend they didn't exist :lol:

[Prisoner Of Ice]

muh swarthy conspiracies, dem jooz tryin to put da black haired irish "tronder" man down

The fact that you didn't even grasp Maciamo's agenda (protip: it ain't what you think it is) proves how ultimately retarded you are.

80% of Yamnas, the swarthoid ones, are drinking your tears and finding them delicious and the remaining 20% are putting on blackface as we speak.

I didn't say what his agenda is. It could be that he is I1 supremacist retard as well, or a pro-r1a guy who wants to paint slavs as the center of the universe. I don't really care what his angle is since it's obvious he is incredibly biased and almost everything he says is pure bullshit.

But that is why it's just common courtesy for some shithead on the net to let everyone know what sort of nigger he is before you waste a bunch of time and energy refuting their bullshit.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Perhaps if you were more civilized you wouldn't get banned in 11 posts.

She is refering to my 'ad hominem' against reich and maciamo, I did not insult anyone on the board or call them names. Being 'civilized' is often code for 'politically correct' ie you have to agree with the policially correct agenda or out the door you go, and calling attention to any bias inherent to it is a certain ban.

Of course I would be happy to set her on fire since it's obvious she is a swedish commie fucktard, but it's not like I said that on the board. She is the one who attacked me not the other way around.

[Jackson]

She is refering to my 'ad hominem' against reich and maciamo, I did not insult anyone on the board or call them names. Being 'civilized' is often code for 'politically correct' ie you have to agree with the policially correct agenda or out the door you go, and calling attention to any bias inherent to it is a certain ban.

Of course I would be happy to set her on fire since it's obvious she is a swedish commie fucktard, but it's not like I said that on the board. She is the one who attacked me not the other way around.

It's more to do with language used to be honest. You should have deconstructed his argument point by point rather than going off on a political rant anyway, because the thread wasn't a political thread. I know for a fact there are people there who are not PC, but they are polite, well mannered and don't (or hardly) discuss politics as it is not the place to do so (except for the political section of the forum).

Anyway, as for R1b being pushed west by Mongols, we have P312 from Germany 4500 years ago, and L21 in Britain 2000 years ago - so that's not the case.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Anyway, as for R1b being pushed west by Mongols, we have P312 from Germany 4500 years ago, and L21 in Britain 2000 years ago - so that's not the case.

If politics are the motivation behind 'science' that should be pointed out. That becomes more and more the case every day.

Factually, it was pushed west. That doesn't mean it didn't also spread west, that's why it stopped being in the east. The point is, being somewhere, then not, doesn't mean that's how it got west. And it's mostly not that far west, which is why it's called germanic.

I guess that is the whole point. We found r1b in russia. That doesn't mean we'll never find it all through the rest of europe, clearly it was already there. And if it did happen as reich claims then this germanic r1b would be all through europe.

[Faklon]

I guess that is the whole point. We found r1b in russia. That doesn't mean we'll never find it all through the rest of europe, clearly it was already there. And if it did happen as reich claims then this germanic r1b would be all through europe.

Yes,the separation of Western European R1b subclades in such recent times is another well known conspiracy.

It happened back in the Paleolithic when the Germanic R1b man had a kid with the fat slug Venus of Laussel.
https://skydogs.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/the-venus-of-laussel-c-25000.jpg

[Ibericus]

Also r1b is nothing to do with indo-european languages. Anyone who thinks that is a complete fucking idiot. Basques are not IE and Iberia was not IE and pre-roman italy was not IE. THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE STOP SAYING THIS.!
That's fucking bullshit. About two-thirds of Iberia was Celtic speakers, only iberos and Basque were pre-IE speakers.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Yes,the separation of Western European R1b subclades in such recent times is another well known conspiracy.



This one always boggled my mind. It has the most variation, yet is supposed to be the youngest major clade. OK.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

That's fucking bullshit. About two-thirds of Iberia was Celtic speakers, only iberos and Basque were pre-IE speakers.

No, it's not bullshit. Those celts came into iberia. Iberian, the language, is not considered IE. Neither is tartessian, nor is basque. The only people who consider them to be IE are those who consider them to be pre-celtic.

I did not mention that possibility because obviously if that is the case then the actual IE homeland is Iberia. Which may well be true, but is far from certain.

[Jackson]

If politics are the motivation behind 'science' that should be pointed out. That becomes more and more the case every day.

Factually, it was pushed west. That doesn't mean it didn't also spread west, that's why it stopped being in the east. The point is, being somewhere, then not, doesn't mean that's how it got west. And it's mostly not that far west, which is why it's called germanic.

I guess that is the whole point. We found r1b in russia. That doesn't mean we'll never find it all through the rest of europe, clearly it was already there. And if it did happen as reich claims then this germanic r1b would be all through europe.

Well it would be pre-pre Germanic, linguists generally look to proto-Germanic as emerging around 500BC iirc. To put it in perspective proto-Germanic emerged the best part of halfway between R1b-P312 being in Germany and us sitting here typing now.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Well it would be pre-pre Germanic, linguists generally look to proto-Germanic as emerging around 500BC iirc. To put it in perspective proto-Germanic emerged the best part of halfway between R1b-P312 being in Germany and us sitting here typing now.

:rolleyes:

Christ man, get over your aspieness.

[Proto-Shaman]

Anyway, GOOD MORNING guys. That Europe-invading Yamna was R1b is a 2 year old story :bored:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pIHDWaZjKU

HEIL Indo-Europea.

[blogen]

http://img.ie/images/2015/03/30/1a60d357c44987a1358daa0c97851e10.jpg
http://img.ie/images/2015/03/30/f4408ae6c2ba683596e2d8f3a8041181.jpg
http://img.ie/images/2015/03/30/a6eaae6bad55efda20bbd26f4595901d.jpg
http://img.ie/images/2015/03/30/2937f07cbc26a362b0db9d9297e92aa0.jpg
http://img.ie/images/2015/03/30/deeb7347b918e99db93d80f1fcd54c42.jpg
http://img.ie/images/2015/03/30/e4f0a12aba7b5c47ed47871dbed28ead.jpg
http://img.ie/images/2015/03/30/7f11b8587b1b96b4927e13d0c9ecde54.jpg
http://img.ie/images/2015/03/30/e0cefb15192cc8223211034cbd3fa634.jpg

source: Tracing the genetic origin of Europe's first farmers reveals insights into their social organization (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/282/1805/20150339?cpetoc)

[Proto-Shaman]

...
...
...
...

source: Tracing the genetic origin of Europe's first farmers reveals insights into their social organization (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/282/1805/20150339?cpetoc)
in favour of Anatolian hypothesis?

[blogen]

in favour of Anatolian hypothesis?

Of course, since this is the genetic evidence onto the strong connection between the neolithization (Körös-Starčevo culture) and the Linear Pottery peoples. And these LBK peoples were the direct cultural ancestors of the western part of the Corded Ware culture, who were the ancestors of the historical Kentum Indoeuropeans in Europe:

Körös culture (proto-Oldeuropean) --> Linear Pottery (Oldeuropean) --> Funnelbeaker (Germanoceltoitalic-Baltoslav northern group) --> Western Corded Ware (Germanoceltic and maybe Italic group)

[Proto-Shaman]

Of course, since this is the genetic evidence onto the strong connection between the neolithization (Körös-Starčevo culture) and the Linear Pottery peoples. And these LBK peoples were the direct cultural ancestors of the western part of the Corded Ware culture, who were the ancestors of the historical Kentum Indoeuropeans in Europe:

Körös culture (proto-Oldeuropean) --> Linear Pottery (Oldeuropean) --> Funnelbeaker (Germanoceltoitalic-Baltoslav northern group) --> Western Corded Ware (Germanoceltic and maybe Italic group)
And Satems are of Yamna origin?

[Jackson]

Of course, since this is the genetic evidence onto the strong connection between the neolithization (Körös-Starčevo culture) and the Linear Pottery peoples. And these LBK peoples were the direct cultural ancestors of the western part of the Corded Ware culture, who were the ancestors of the historical Kentum Indoeuropeans in Europe:

Körös culture (proto-Oldeuropean) --> Linear Pottery (Oldeuropean) --> Funnelbeaker (Germanoceltoitalic-Baltoslav northern group) --> Western Corded Ware (Germanoceltic and maybe Italic group)

The most recent aDNA evidence shows that the western Corded Ware individuals were not the direct descendants of the LBK individuals, in fact they were genetically very distinct from one another.

[blogen]

And Satems are of Yamna origin?

Yes, but the Baltoslavs and the Thracians were satemized (by Yamna) Kentum peoples only.

[blogen]

The most recent aDNA evidence shows that the western Corded Ware individuals were not the direct descendants of the LBK individuals, in fact they were genetically very distinct from one another.

What evidence punctually?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

If they came from anatolia, they definitely came much earlier than that anyway. Yamnaya is already too late for anyone with any honesty to accept. We have whole atlantic neolithic with no y-dna. It's just retarded to try and pretend it doesn't exist.

[Jackson]

What evidence punctually?

The topic of the thread...

[blogen]

The topic of the thread...

What was a false conclusion.

[Jackson]

What was a false conclusion.

aDNA is aDNA, unless you're suggesting that the results were deliberately tampered with to indicate that there was population discontinuity between the Early and Middle Neolithic cultures of central Europe, and the latest/eneolithic and Bronze Age cultures of the same area?

[blogen]

aDNA is aDNA, unless you're suggesting that the results were deliberately tampered with to indicate that there was population discontinuity between the Early and Middle Neolithic cultures of central Europe, and the latest/eneolithic and Bronze Age cultures of the same area?

What about the aDNA and what discontinuity?


"We have seen that Middle Neolithic Europeans are a mixture of Early Neolithic Europeans and western European hunter-gatherers."

"The second shows that in relation to the Yamnaya, the Corded Ware share more alleles with Middle and Early Neolithic European populations."

[Jackson]

What about the aDNA and what discontinuity?


"We have seen that Middle Neolithic Europeans are a mixture of Early Neolithic Europeans and western European hunter-gatherers."

"The second shows that in relation to the Yamnaya, the Corded Ware share more alleles with Middle and Early Neolithic European populations."

The corded ware individuals clearly plot far to the east/north-east of the earlier Neolithic population in the region.

That first quote is referring to the Middle neolithic individuals that are not genetically like the modern people or Corded Ware people in the region.

That second quote simply means that the Corded Ware individuals are admixed with the earlier Neolithic individuals in the area, although if you read it through it's clear that it's a small amount, and that it's substantially more in Bell Beaker - but those two populations are clearly not the same as the ones that preceded them, although they are partially descended from them.

[Graham]

Corded Ware is more of a Yamnaya-Mid Neolthic mix. LBK is too early/different.

[blogen]

The corded ware individuals clearly plot far to the east/north-east of the earlier Neolithic population in the region.

That first quote is referring to the Middle neolithic individuals that are not genetically like the modern people or Corded Ware people in the region.

That second quote simply means that the Corded Ware individuals are admixed with the earlier Neolithic individuals in the area, although if you read it through it's clear that it's a small amount, and that it's substantially more in Bell Beaker - but those two populations are clearly not the same as the ones that preceded them, although they are partially descended from them.

Based on what? Definitely not this study.

[Jackson]

Based on what? Definitely not this study.

Well you clearly haven't read it then. :P

[Hevo]

Based on what? Definitely not this study.

The results? The Corded ware samples cluster with Eastern Europeans more or less.

[blogen]

The results? The Corded ware samples cluster with Eastern Europeans more or less.

And? We talk about the Central and Western Europeans, the Kentum Indoeuropeans (Western part of the CW) and not about the Baltoslavs (Eastern part of the CW)!

[Jackson]

And? We talk about the Central and Western Europeans, the Kentum Indoeuropeans (Western part of the CW) and not about the Baltoslavs (Eastern part of the CW)!

And they seemed to be more or less half (or more) descended from Yamnaya-like groups.

[Hevo]

And? We talk about the Central and Western Europeans, the Kentum Indoeuropeans (Western part of the CW) and not about the Baltoslavs (Eastern part of the CW)!

They still have around 50% Yamna admixture as it's showed in the study.

[blogen]

And they seemed to be more or less half (or more) descended from Yamnaya-like groups.

They still have around 50% Yamna admixture as it's showed in the study.

That was a baseless speculation in the study. The reality: The Yamna sample was the nearest to them! And this is a big difference, because the common mesolithic heritage of the Eastern European populations was this background presumably.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Exactly, there's already relation between east and west obviously, you can tell just by looking. That says absolutely nothing about their origin spot or time. At this time, the r1a peoples are pretty much exactly as they are now. Yet the yamnaya r1b samples are not. Obviously they are not the origin of anything but the periphery.

[Jackson]

That was a baseless speculation in the study. The reality: The Yamna sample was the nearest to them! And this is a big difference, because the common mesolithic heritage of the Eastern European populations was this background presumably.

This admixture is not found in populations of central and western Europe prior to this, clearly the transition from Middle to Late/Eneolithic and Bronze Age is one of discontinuity in terms of genetics, more-so in the east than the west however, although it has evened out more in the time since then.

[blogen]

This admixture is not found in populations of central and western Europe prior to this, clearly the transition from Middle to Late/Eneolithic and Bronze Age is one of discontinuity in terms of genetics, more-so in the east than the west however, although it has evened out more in the time since then.

But this imaginary discontinuity not existed based on this study. Look at the quotations!

[Jackson]

But this imaginary discontinuity not existed based on this study. Look at the quotations!

Yes, i can tell you that the quotations support what i am saying, and not what you are saying as i already explained.

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

The kurgans/aryans were the basques and the yamnaya culture was the basque/celtic culture.We spilled over to north africa,egypt,etc but our jealous enemies slandered the real moors which werent black like the pathetic afrocentrists say.It doesnt help that our enemies such as the norse,etc taught this lie that the moors were from north africa and non white as if being in north africa made you non white like todays people in north africa and we are talking about centuries ago.

The real moors/berbers(barbarians but nothing to do with the fake barbarians the norse) have nothing to do with the people known as moroccans or moors today.The goth phoenicians were the real moors/goths/celtiberians/ancient egyptians/real vikings/varangians/scythians/venetians/etruscans,etc.

Our enemies wanted you to associate moors with non whites to discredit us and to make you dislike the real thing.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?132958-Historians-note-that-Odin-who-was-a-very-popular-Thracian-ruler-Thracians-a-hidden-history

[Proto-Shaman]

The kurgans/aryans were the basques and the yamnaya culture was the basque/celtic culture.We spilled over to north africa,egypt,etc but our jealous enemies slandered the real moors which werent black like the pathetic afrocentrists say.It doesnt help that our enemies such as the norse,etc taught this lie that the moors were from north africa and non white as if being in north africa made you non white like todays people in north africa and we are talking about centuries ago.

The real moors/berbers(barbarians but nothing to do with the fake barbarians the norse) have nothing to do with the people known as moroccans or moors today.The goth phoenicians were the real moors/goths/celtiberians/ancient egyptians/real vikings/varangians/scythians/venetians/etruscans,etc.

Our enemies wanted you to associate moors with non whites to discredit us and to make you dislike the real thing.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?132958-Historians-note-that-Odin-who-was-a-very-popular-Thracian-ruler-Thracians-a-hidden-history
Bro, you forgot to add the Turkic Bashkirs. They actually got the highscore of Yamna y-dna Z2105/03.

[Zroota]

So a "source" is another anthro forum?

Besides, this is still a hypothesis.

[Bellbeaking]

So a "source" is another anthro forum?

Besides, this is still a hypothesis.

no its not

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25738

[Bellbeaking]

I find it odd. First of all, both Yamnaya and Corded Ware are expressions of same ethnic group with a huge cultural/racial overlap, as one would expect considering they were the first stage of breakup in Aryan ethnos.

Then, why would Basques or Spanish people have such a high incidence of R1b, if that came from Aryans? It's obvious that while Iberians were influenced by Aryans (via Kelts), it's also clear that element CANNOT be dominant in people such as Basques (Iberian speakers) or Spaniards (Romanized Iberians).

Also, I find it hard to believe that most of Western Europe ancestry is Aryan (as R1b would indicate). At every point in history, pre-Aryan elements have always been dominant in the mix that followed Keltic invasions (be it local CM or neolithic elements). Today this is even more apparent than it was in Antiquity: no more than 10% of Western Europeans are "Nordids".

Once again, DNA evidence proves worthless in determining people ancestries.


https://i.imgur.com/aU5ISrD.png

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

R1b is real proto-Indo-European marker, more so than R1a.

[Peterski]

R1b is real proto-Indo-European marker, more so than R1a.

Really? So who was this guy, what language did he speak?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277289-Ancestor-of-R1a-men-on-GEDmatch

On the other hand we are in 2019 and there are still no any R1b-L51 samples from the Steppe.

[Imperator Biff]

Both R1a and R1b coexisted in samara eneolithic early PIE horizons like Khvalynsk phase II.

[Proto-Shaman]

R1b is real proto-Indo-European marker, more so than R1a.

I am THE REAL proto-Indo-European marker!

[Antimatter]

Bro, you forgot to add the Turkic Bashkirs. They actually got the highscore of Yamna y-dna Z2105/03.

So what. Armenians and Iranians have high levels of R-Z2103 too..

[Proto-Shaman]

So what. Armenians and Iranians have high levels of R-Z2103 too..
A tiny little noise fart of Borzani Kurds, too. They have the same mutation of the maximum Bashkir clade. So basically Turkic sperms from the Urals.


2) The connection of the Burzyan with the Digorians, now also relies on the fact of the common snip Z2105 inherent in both clans. It is explained by me that the common ancestors of the Burzyans and Digorians lived in the Aral Sea region, at the end of the 1st millennium BC. in the composition of the massagesta confederation of tribes. In my opinion, migrations of the ancestors of the Digorians R1b-Z2105 and Burdjans Z2105 from the Aral Sea to the Urals and the North Caucasus in the beginning are connected with the Alan-Burdjan tribe.

3) As for the Burzyans and Borzani Kurds, their kinship goes back to the 3rd millennium BC, as indicated by the presence of their common ancestor more than 4 thousand years ago. The negative result on the L584 snapshot confirmed the distant affinity of the Bashkir Burzyans and Kurdish Borzani, the position of this snapshot among the Burzyans in December 2013 of the EHP Suyun; Vol.1, November 2014, №1 [1,2]; ISSN: 2410-1788 33 years was not yet known. L584 was ordered, and as it turned out, the haplotypes of Burzyan and Borzani could not be calculated by the formula SKRJAMM, since they are from different subclades, and L584 is negative in Bashkir Burzians. Now it is absolutely clear that there can be no question of any closer relationship between the borzani and the burzyanas, which could have been less than 4 thousand years ago. There is no doubt that the Burzyan and Borzani had a single origin, but it was more than 4 thousand years ago and the migration of the sub-deposit R1b-M269, in my opinion, came from the Urals to the Caucasus, and not vice versa. ”