Reich: Yamnaya brought R1b to Europe

[curupira]

Wow! Big news, don't you agree? One has to celebrate. During years, first Iberian, then Neolithic Anatolian, R1b had been misrepresented. The study of the clades shows clearly it spread fast, East to West, following the spread of IE languages (it could not be a coincidence!). Finally!

ps Not to mention Klyosov theory that it was North African! :thumb001:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3807-David-Reich-lecture-9-February-2015/page5

[curupira]

This is what Roy King said:


I'm very certain that R1b will be found in the aDNA Samara/Yamnaya samples from Reich's comments. Phylogeographically it makes sense--M73 and M269 are sister clades and both are found among Bashkirs and other Middle Eastern/Central Asian populations, eg among Tajiks and in the Iranian samples along the South Caspian. L23 variance is actually highest in Pakistan! I've said very little for two reasons: 1) I am an academic and honor the peer review process and 2) I have been a major proponent of J2 convecting the first Neolithic farmers to Europe which is clearly now not the case, with G2a taking preeminence.
That said, R1b surfed from the Eastern/Northern Caspian all the way into Europe with, probably, some R1b-L23 migrating from the Balkans into Anatolia, ferrying the Anatolian languages there.

February 9, 2015 at 6:46 PM
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4123559132014627431&postID=3491720974554727648&isPopup=true

[Grace O'Malley]

Wow! Big news, don't you agree? One has to celebrate. During years, first Iberian, then Neolithic Anatolian, R1b had been misrepresented. The study of the clades shows clearly it spread fast, East to West, following the spread of IE languages (it could not be a coincidence!). Finally!

ps Not to mention Klyosov theory that it was North African! :thumb001:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3807-David-Reich-lecture-9-February-2015/page5

Thanks for the thread. I was wondering why people here weren't discussing this. I'm really excited about it. It fits in with a lot of things I've noticed about genetics over the last few years and of course reading Anthrogenica has been most informative.

[Mortimer]

cool

[Grace O'Malley]

I'll add some interesting points I've picked up. ANE linked to R1b and R1a and both travelled to Europe with the Indo-Europeans.

This obviously explains the high Gedrosia and ANE in the British Isles (especially the Celtic areas).

[blogen]

Where is the source?

[Grace O'Malley]

Where is the source?

Read the Anthrogenica thread. There is also a huge amount of discussion on Eurogenes. There are links in both of them.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/david-reichs-oxford-seminar.html

[blogen]

Read the Anthrogenica thread. There is also a huge amount of discussion on Eurogenes. There are links in both of them.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/david-reichs-oxford-seminar.html

OK, so we wait onto a proper publication.

[Grace O'Malley]

OK, so we wait onto a proper publication.

Of course there will be a publication coming but from the horse's mouth. Quoted from Jean Manco who attended the seminar from Prof Reich. He said that R1a and R1b had travelled with the Indo-Europeans.* I cannot recall the exact form of words. On one slide, as I said, both CW and BB contained all three of his components. We know that there was R1b in BB in Germany. I really cannot tell you any more. He was not specific about the Y-DNA in Samara or Iberian Bell Beaker.

*Added: I have found my note. He said in the question session that Yamnaya had brought R1a and R1b to Europe.

The writing is on the wall and people have been discussing this topic for years and have a really good knowledge on the subject. A lot of people have been saying R1b is Indo-European and it ties in very well with ANE levels in places like Ireland and Scotland. Of course the logical way of thinking is how is Indo-European languages spoken by 95% R1b if those languages didn't come with them? R1b in Western Europe is only about 4,000 years old at the most and it obviously had an eastern route. This has been obvious to anyone looking at y-dna information at FTDNA and of course the hobbyists are always ahead of the scientists on this.

[aherne]

I find it odd. First of all, both Yamnaya and Corded Ware are expressions of same ethnic group with a huge cultural/racial overlap, as one would expect considering they were the first stage of breakup in Aryan ethnos.

Then, why would Basques or Spanish people have such a high incidence of R1b, if that came from Aryans? It's obvious that while Iberians were influenced by Aryans (via Kelts), it's also clear that element CANNOT be dominant in people such as Basques (Iberian speakers) or Spaniards (Romanized Iberians).

Also, I find it hard to believe that most of Western Europe ancestry is Aryan (as R1b would indicate). At every point in history, pre-Aryan elements have always been dominant in the mix that followed Keltic invasions (be it local CM or neolithic elements). Today this is even more apparent than it was in Antiquity: no more than 10% of Western Europeans are "Nordids".

Once again, DNA evidence proves worthless in determining people ancestries.

[Proto-Shaman]

Once again, DNA evidence proves worthless in determining people ancestries.
Not to mention a whole set of language families.

[Grace O'Malley]

I find it odd. First of all, both Yamnaya and Corded Ware are expressions of same ethnic group with a huge cultural/racial overlap, as one would expect considering they were the first stage of breakup in Aryan ethnos.

Then, why would Basques or Spanish people have such a high incidence of R1b, if that came from Aryans? It's obvious that while Iberians were influenced by Aryans (via Kelts), it's also clear that element CANNOT be dominant in people such as Basques (Iberian speakers) or Spaniards (Romanized Iberians).

Also, I find it hard to believe that most of Western Europe ancestry is Aryan (as R1b would indicate). At every point in history, pre-Aryan elements have always been dominant in the mix that followed Keltic invasions (be it local CM or neolithic elements). Today this is even more apparent than it was in Antiquity: no more than 10% of Western Europeans are "Nordids".

Once again, DNA evidence proves worthless in determining people ancestries.

I don't know what "Nordids" have to do with it. The subject is discussed in depth on Eurogenes and the Anthrogenica thread. This paper will be published so more information will be available. They obviously must have R1b from Yamnaya to say that R1a and R1b came with the Indo-Europeans. You need to look to genetics for your answers. A poster on Anthrogenica said that it looks like R1b in Spain took a different route from R1b to the Isles because ANE is a lot higher in the Celtic Fringe of the Isles than Iberia. R1b in the Celtic Fringe is overwhelmingly L21 and in Iberia it is DF27. The clades split somewhere (poss the Rhine) and took different routes. It is well worth reading some threads on Anthrogenica as many on there are FTDNA project managers and know there stuff on ydna.

I don't know how you can say that DNA proves worthless unless you don't have a good grasp of the subject because it has been extremely informative to me over the years. The R1b that came to the Isles was high in ANE whereas the R1b that went to Iberia got diluted possibly from mixing with Farmers.

[Proto-Shaman]

The R1b that came to the Isles was high in ANE whereas the R1b that went to Iberia got diluted possibly from mixing with Farmers.
You really want to make Siberians, Finnics, North Caucasians, Wolga-Urals, Central Asians, East and Southeast Asians and Native South Americans IE? Ironically these are the regions where ANE peaks btw.

[Grace O'Malley]

You really want to make Siberians, Finnics, North Caucasians, Wolga-Urals, Central Asians, East and Southeast Asians and Native South Americans IE? Ironically these are the regions where ANE peaks btw.

Nothing to do with me. This is what Prof. Reich stated and is due to Steppe ancestry. You know that ANE was in Mal'ta Boy don't you? I've always wondered why I get quite high Amerindian for a European in Gedmatch calculators well it is related to ANE which I am high in. I've had my K8 done. I'm sure you know that the Indo-Europeans came from the Caspian Steppe area?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/21/science/two-surprises-in-dna-of-boy-found-buried-in-siberia.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[curupira]

You are wrong. It spread too fast, and it was not found either in Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. The Western clades are too young, and their arrival are within the timeframe of the IE languages. It could not have been a coincidence!


I find it odd. First of all, both Yamnaya and Corded Ware are expressions of same ethnic group with a huge cultural/racial overlap, as one would expect considering they were the first stage of breakup in Aryan ethnos.

Then, why would Basques or Spanish people have such a high incidence of R1b, if that came from Aryans? It's obvious that while Iberians were influenced by Aryans (via Kelts), it's also clear that element CANNOT be dominant in people such as Basques (Iberian speakers) or Spaniards (Romanized Iberians).

Also, I find it hard to believe that most of Western Europe ancestry is Aryan (as R1b would indicate). At every point in history, pre-Aryan elements have always been dominant in the mix that followed Keltic invasions (be it local CM or neolithic elements). Today this is even more apparent than it was in Antiquity: no more than 10% of Western Europeans are "Nordids".

Once again, DNA evidence proves worthless in determining people ancestries.

[Proto-Shaman]

Nothing to do with me. This is what Prof. Reich stated and is due to Steppe ancestry. You know that ANE was in Mal'ta Boy don't you? I've always wondered why I get quite high Amerindian for a European in Gedmatch calculators well it is related to ANE which I am high in. I've had my K8 done. I'm sure you know that the Indo-Europeans came from the Caspian Steppe area?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/21/science/two-surprises-in-dna-of-boy-found-buried-in-siberia.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Then Prof. Reich is an embedded scientist following eurocentric ideals. 24.000 years ago there was no steppe in Siberia or do you consider the Karitiana people from Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karitiana_people) also of Steppe ancestry?


Mongoloid features had been originally acknowledged in the skeletal remains of a child found at the site of Malta. Alexeev (1998, 323) in his later publication was more cautious, stating that this area was“inhabited by a population of Mongoloid appearance".
http://shinku.nichibun.ac.jp/jpub/pdf/jr/IJ1507.pdf

There is no actual origin of IE's, there are too many theories. I don't believe in language families either.

[Proto-Shaman]

You are wrong. It spread too fast, and it was not found either in Mesolhitic or Neolithic Europe. The Western clades are too young, and their arrival are within the timeframe of the IE languages. It could not have been a coincidence!
The timeframe you are speaking about is conncected with R1a not R1b.

[curupira]

It sure is connected with R1b. R1b has not been found in neither Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. Do I have to repeat that? The timeframe of its arrival in Western Europe coincides with that of IE languages.

This is what Roy King said:


This is what Roy King said:

I'm very certain that R1b will be found in the aDNA Samara/Yamnaya samples from Reich's comments. Phylogeographically it makes sense--M73 and M269 are sister clades and both are found among Bashkirs and other Middle Eastern/Central Asian populations, eg among Tajiks and in the Iranian samples along the South Caspian. L23 variance is actually highest in Pakistan! I've said very little for two reasons: 1) I am an academic and honor the peer review process and 2) I have been a major proponent of J2 convecting the first Neolithic farmers to Europe which is clearly now not the case, with G2a taking preeminence.
That said, R1b surfed from the Eastern/Northern Caspian all the way into Europe with, probably, some R1b-L23 migrating from the Balkans into Anatolia, ferrying the Anatolian languages there.

February 9, 2015 at 6:46 PM
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4123559132014627431&postID=3491720974554727648&isPopup=true


The timeframe you are speaking about is conncected with R1a not R1b.

[Proto-Shaman]

It sure is connected with R1b. R1b has not been found in neither Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. Do I have to repeat that? The timeframe of its arrival in Western Europe coincides with that of IE languages.

This is what Roy King said:


https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4123559132014627431&postID=3491720974554727648&isPopup=true
What I was referring to was the IE timeframe not the agglutinating non-IE.

[curupira]

Exactly, the timeframe of IE languages in Western Europe coincides with the spread of R1b. There is no R1b in either Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. How could it get to Western Europe and become the dominant lineage there if not with the spread of IE languages?


What I was referring to was the IE timeframe not the agglutinating non-IE.

[Proto-Shaman]

Exactly, the timeframe of IE languages in Western Europe coincides with the spread of R1b. There is no R1b in either Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. How could it get to Western Europe and become the dominant lineage there if not with the spread of IE languages?
"The Kurgan theory apparently has inverted the roles of the NIE (R1b) and the IE (R1a). The Kurgan theory is in error in ascribing kurgans, nomadism, and the domestication of horses to speakers of IE who lived around 7000 ybp. Instead, these cultural features should be ascribed to NIEs (R1b) who migrated westward. Gimbutas claims that IE speakers migrated to Europe three times--first, between 6400 and 6300 ybp; second, around 5500 ybp (from the area North of the Black Sea); third, between 5000 and 4800 ybp (allegedly from the Volga steppes). These claims are unsupportable. There were no IEs (R1a) in the Volga steppes between 5000 and 4800 ybp or earlier; they arrived between 4600 and 4300 ybp. Had they been in the steppes, they would have been moving from Europe eastward."

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scirp.org%2Fjournal%2FPaperDo wnload.aspx%3FpaperID%3D31366&ei=9_LZVM74C8z0UKPag5AD&usg=AFQjCNHZTNf9zxxwoELZ_ytQEM1Iz4-EPQ

[Grace O'Malley]

Then Prof. Reich is an embedded scientist following eurocentric ideals. 24.000 years ago there was no steppe in Siberia or do you consider the Karitiana people from Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karitiana_people) also of Steppe ancestry?


http://shinku.nichibun.ac.jp/jpub/pdf/jr/IJ1507.pdf

There is no actual origin of IE's, there are too many theories. I don't believe in language families either.

You read my link on Mal'ta Boy didn't you? Both Native Americans and Europeans are descended from a population in Siberia that was rich in ANE but the NAs left that region before Indo European languages. It's easy to understand and just because NAs has some ancestry from a similar source doesn't have anything to do with Indo-European languages like Celtic. You're just bringing in obvious red herrings.

[Proto-Shaman]

You read my link on Mal'ta Boy didn't you? Both Native Americans and Europeans are descended from a population in Siberia that was rich in ANE but the NAs left that region before Indo European languages. It's easy to understand and just because NAs has some ancestry from a similar source doesn't have anything to do with Indo-European languages like Celtic. You're just bringing in obvious red herrings.
So you admit Native Americans are not IE? Thats fine, we make progress.

I can't really see the direct IE connection you are speaking about btw:
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Ancient_North_Eurasian_admixture.png

[Grace O'Malley]

Post up now on the subject by Razib Khan. "The core element seems to be that a paper will soon be published using ancient DNA results to conclude that Indo-European languages came to Europe from the Yamna culture of the Pontic Steppe ~4,000 years ago." Note that R1b in Europe is the same age. Anyway it is a nice and concise article on the subject for those who don't want to wade through all the other information on the Eurogenes blog and Anthrogenica.

http://www.unz.com/gnxp/there-were-giants-in-the-earth-in-those-days/

[Grace O'Malley]

So you admit Native Americans are not IE? Thats fine, we make progress.

I can't really see the direct IE connection you are speaking about btw:
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Ancient_North_Eurasian_admixture.png

You will just have to read up on the topic. Some people choose what they want to believe despite all the evidence. You are one of the few dissenters and obviously have your own reasons. Anyway that map is not entirely accurate.

[Smaug]

So R1b is Aryan too.

[Grace O'Malley]

There is also some questions raised by Razib in his article and he doesn't appear to have the same understanding of the subject that some others have. One example is that he is saying that ANE is not only Indo-European and the Kalash have high amounts but I have read that ANE in Europe is from the Indo-European expansion but this was not the case in Asia. He also mentions Sardinia which has R1b but very little ANE but that can be explained by mixing with Farmers as Sardinians have a lot of Neolithic ancestry. The interesting thing is that R1b in places like Ireland have high ANE because the populations retain more of this Yamna ancestry due to isolation.

I'm hoping someone like Jackson or Graham can comment further on the topic.

[curupira]

Even with R1b being associated with Yamnaya, they keep on that. Amazing! :icon_rolleyes:


You will just have to read up on the topic. Some people choose what they want to believe despite all the evidence. You are one of the few dissenters and obviously have your own reasons. Anyway that map is not entirely accurate.

[Hevo]

Even with R1b being associated with Yamnaya, they keep on that. Amazing! :icon_rolleyes:

They are in denial but don't worry, they will come around.;)

[aherne]

Exactly, the timeframe of IE languages in Western Europe coincides with the spread of R1b. There is no R1b in either Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. How could it get to Western Europe and become the dominant lineage there if not with the spread of IE languages?

But why is that it has a peak in Basques:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29
Did Basques precede "Indo-Europeans" that came with R1b. Are Basques earlier than 3500 years in Spain? That's ludicruous...
Are people from W Sicily 30% "Indo-European"? There is no documented presence of Aryans in W Sicily prior to Greco-Roman times. One would expect an all-time-low average for this region, but instead here we have among the highest ratio in Italy.

[curupira]

Vennemann studied old european river names, showing a correlation with Basque languages in Western Europe. Celtic languages arrived after that, just like the clades of R1b in Western Europe. Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasconic_substratum_theory

Basque R1b is not associated with the Basque languages. Like all Iberian R1b, it is R1b-P312, a very new haplogroup which got there very recently, perhaps as recent as 2000 years BC (at the same time Lusitanian and Celtic IE languages got in Iberia). Gimbutas associated Bell Beaker with the IE, and she was right, since the earliest R1b found in Europe so far, in East Germany, was in a Bell Beaker site.

R1b has not been found in neither Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. The timeframe of its arrival in Western Europe coincides with that of IE languages. It could not have been spoken by the original Basque speakers. The study of river names in Western Europe shows Basque like languages were more widespread before the arrival of IE, at a time earlier than the arrival of R1b there.

The point is: the timeframe of IE languages in Western Europe coincides with the spread of R1b. There is no R1b in either Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. How could it get to Western Europe and become the dominant lineage there if not with the spread of IE languages? Both events took place at about the same time. We know it by studying linguistic and the R1b clades.

You are not really familiar with R1b clades in Western Europe, are you? They are extremely recent, and their arrival coincides with that of IE languages. Just read about it and inform yourself. Western Europe is dominated by R1b-P312 and R1b-U106, they are both the most downstream (not upstream) clades. We knew the upstream clades are found in the East. It was not difficult to foresee an association with Yamnaya and Samara would have been reported: and it was, yesterday!


But why is that it has a peak in Basques:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29
Did Basques precede "Indo-Europeans" that came with R1b. Are Basques earlier than 3500 years in Spain? That's ludicruous...
Are people from W Sicily 30% "Indo-European"? There is no documented presence of Aryans in W Sicily prior to Greco-Roman times. One would expect an all-time-low average for this region, but instead here we have among the highest ratio in Italy.

[Grace O'Malley]

Also explaining the differences in ANE in North Western European and places like Iberia. I'll see if I can find a link but there was a population crash in Ireland around this time so it would have been very sparsely populated leaving room for all these R1b people carrying ANE whereas Southern Europe was a lot more populated already so didn't get quite the same hit and ANE was lost on the R1b route through France where people mixed and then further into Iberia.

[Jackson]

Reich also apparently said that the Bell Beakers in Germany and in Spain had WHG, EEF and ANE but in different proportions - Presumably in Iberia they had more EEF, less WHG and ANE, or at least less ANE. The northern Bell Beakers were not that different to Corded Ware individuals, but they must have assimilated more locals in Iberia. Ie IE had linguistic and genetic success in Iberia, but the level of replacement must have been lower there than in northern Europe.

The figures were 60-100% replacement by farmers between Mesolithic-Neolithic transition.
Then followed by some WHG resurgence.
Then 60-80% replacement by steppe groups.
Followed by some resurgence in previous ancestry.

I don't know if the figures are just referring to one area of Europe - i imagine the upper and lower bound are geographically different locations. Although, if replacement was lower (60%) somewhere like Iberia, and then resurgence since the bronze age stronger there, could explain the differences between modern groups, as well as the Beaker groups being genetically a bit different in the first place.

[Arhat]

no samples were shown and r1b among yamna was not confirmed. Reich even did not mention that he found r1b, he just mentioned that he thought that yamna brought r1b to europe but he has not shown any evidences and r1b could be just picked up by yamna people who brought it later to western europe but this does not mean that it had anything to do with PIEs. Even when r1b was found in yamna, this does not mean that european r1b was brought from there.

[Grace O'Malley]

no samples were shown and r1b among yamna was not confirmed. Reich even did not mention that he found r1b, he just mentioned that he thought that yamna brought r1b to europe but he has not shown any evidences and r1b could be just picked up by yamna people who brought it later to western europe but this does not mean that it had anything to do with PIEs. Even when r1b was found in yamna, this does not mean that european r1b was brought from there.

So R1b appears 4,000 years ago as well as Indo-European languages with large population turnover and there is no link?? There are also 7 Yamnaya samples so all will be revealed when the papers are published.

[Graham]

Would be interesting too see how the ancient populations start to look more like Modern Western Europeans, if we have the beaker results.

[Danishmend]

What a glourious day!!

Soon they will also reveal that Yamnaya had some sort of J2 or G haplogroups as well, as they were roughly 50% (ANE + some WHG) + 50% Near Eastern farmer-like population, so they must have absorbed some J2 or G male lineages. Then entire Europe will eventually become 100% Indo-European!!!!


There is no R1b in either Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe.
Really? :confused:


Let's take Basques who have the lowest amount of ANE admixture in Europe for example, they have 80-90% R1b.
Indo-European men invade Basque people who lack any sort of R1b, mate with local Basque women and R1b becomes the most dominant male lineage among these people. But they don't switch to Indo-European language somehow, although they absorb similar amount of ANE and R1b as other Southwest Europeans.

I'm not saying R1b didn't exist in Yamnaya, buy saying all of R1b spread across Europe with Indo-Europeans is ridiculous.

http://i.hizliresim.com/Lp1qr1.png (http://hizliresim.com/Lp1qr1)

[Arhat]

So R1b appears 4,000 years ago as well as Indo-European languages with large population turnover and there is no link?? There are also 7 Yamnaya samples so all will be revealed when the papers are published.

explain me why centum tocharians had no r1b and why basques have 80% r1b. Maybe some special subclades of r1b orginate in yamna but surely not most of modern european r1b. R1b was not present among ancient scythian steppe people and they were direct descendant of the steppe people. R1b was maybe present in the most western part of the european steppe but it was surely orginally not indo-european

[curupira]

I'm not saying R1b didn't exist in Yamnaya, buy saying all of R1b spread across Europe with Indo-Europeans is ridiculous.

Read my post above. You seem to ignore that R1b Basque is very recent in Iberia, it arrived earlier than Basque languages (which we can infer from the study of river names in Western Europe). The fact that somehow Basque did not went extinct likely has to do with an incomplete process of Indo Europeanisation in Iberia, which is the exception, not the rule (check the British Isles, France, the Netherlands, France). You have to look at the forest (the bigger picture).

[curupira]

This is what Roy King said:


I'm very certain that R1b will be found in the aDNA Samara/Yamnaya samples from Reich's comments. Phylogeographically it makes sense--M73 and M269 are sister clades and both are found among Bashkirs and other Middle Eastern/Central Asian populations, eg among Tajiks and in the Iranian samples along the South Caspian. L23 variance is actually highest in Pakistan! I've said very little for two reasons: 1) I am an academic and honor the peer review process and 2) I have been a major proponent of J2 convecting the first Neolithic farmers to Europe which is clearly now not the case, with G2a taking preeminence.
That said, R1b surfed from the Eastern/Northern Caspian all the way into Europe with, probably, some R1b-L23 migrating from the Balkans into Anatolia, ferrying the Anatolian languages there.

February 9, 2015 at 6:46 PM
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4123559132014627431&postID=3491720974554727648&isPopup=true


no samples were shown and r1b among yamna was not confirmed. Reich even did not mention that he found r1b, he just mentioned that he thought that yamna brought r1b to europe but he has not shown any evidences and r1b could be just picked up by yamna people who brought it later to western europe but this does not mean that it had anything to do with PIEs. Even when r1b was found in yamna, this does not mean that european r1b was brought from there.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Holy puke upon crap.


Well actually it was becoming a little more obvious given Malta Boy, BBC aDNA, etc. that R1b would actually be 'steppic'. It certainly was a long strange trip so to speak regarding its meta-history.

[Arhat]

This is what Roy King said:


https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4123559132014627431&postID=3491720974554727648&isPopup=true

we have to wait untill the paper is published and till now r1b in yamna was not confirmed. This quote you posted is not a evidence that they found r1b there, he ist just speculating. If r1b was present in the eastern european steppe indo-iranians would have much more of it because they orginated in the eastern europe steppe not far away from where the samples were took.

[curupira]

I mentioned two reports saying the same thing. It will be published, and of course we'll keep checking it. I only opened a thread because of a decade long history of trolling R1b when it was obvious a link with IE languages could be established, particularly when it became clear that R1b clades arrived in Western Europe in the same timeframe IE languages arrived, and when Mesolithic and Neolithic Europe turned out without any R1b remains. As soon as the news came out, I felt it would be interesting to share it.

Today is not like yesterday. R1b did not exist in Western Europe not too long ago. R1b did not exist in the Americas a few centuries. If R1b was found in Yamnaya and Samara as it was reported, the link has been established beyond doubt.

There are many scenarios which could explain for a later R1a dominance in what was once also R1b territory. Founder effects, bottlenecks, etc. One does not find haplogroup I in India, and yet haplogroup I is present in Ukraine and Russia, for example.

Anyway, R1b has been the most trolled haplogroup. Some people - in many forums - claimed it came to Europe via North Africa/Iberia. So did Klyosov. And yet the R1b in Iberia is very recent. The Anatolian model does not fit either, as tested remains in Neolithic Europe do not show any R1b. In short, the arrival of R1b-M269 is recent in Europe in the same timeframe as that of IE languages.

I think my points are clear. Let's wait for the study to be published.


we have to wait untill the paper is published and till no r1b in yamna was not confirmed. This quote you posted is not a evidence that they found r1b there, he ist just speculating. If r1b was present in the eastern european steppe indo-iranians would have much more of it because they orginated in the eastern europe steppe not far away from where the samples were took

[Grace O'Malley]

explain me why centum tocharians had no r1b and why basques have 80% r1b. Maybe some special subclades of r1b orginate in yamna but surely not most of modern european r1b. R1b was not present among ancient scythian steppe people and they were direct descendant of the steppe people. R1b was maybe present in the most western part of the european steppe but it was surely orginally not indo-european

Well R1b in Basque is only very recent and possibly only about 2,000 years old but we know R1b in Europe is only about 4,000 years old so it is obvious that Basque got their R1b the same way as everyone else and that is from the East. Tocharians were all R1a1a so people will just have to wait for the paper and more information on the Yamnaya genomes to come out. Prof Reich said R1a and R1b so unless he was making it up I'm sure he will explain his evidence in time. Anyway Uyghur people have R1b so it is not like it is not there.

[Arhat]

Well R1b in Basque is only very recent and possibly only about 2,000 years old but we know R1b in Europe on only about 4,000 years old so it is obvious that Basque got their R1b the same way as everyone else and that is from the East. Tocharians were all R1a1a so people will just have to wait for the paper and more information on the Yamnaya genomes to come out. Prof Reich said R1a and R1b so unless he was making it up I'm sure he will explain his evidence in time. Anyway Uyghur people have R1b so it is not like it is not there.

uyghur r1b is not directly related to european r1b and seems to orginate from the near east/iran and not from the steppe. All ancient samples there were r1a so we can not simply divide indo-europeans in centum r1b and satem r1a.

[blogen]

Anything is baseless speculation, before we don't know the whole story about the R1b subclades between the Samara peoples.

[aherne]

Vennemann studied old european river names, showing a correlation with Basque languages in Western Europe. Celtic languages arrived after that, just like the clades of R1b in Western Europe. Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasconic_substratum_theory

Basque R1b is not associated with the Basque languages. Like all Iberian R1b, it is R1b-P312, a very new haplogroup which got there very recently, perhaps as recent as 2000 years BC (at the same time Lusitanian and Celtic IE languages got in Iberia). Gimbutas associated Bell Beaker with the IE, and she was right, since the earliest R1b found in Europe so far, in East Germany, was in a Bell Beaker site.

R1b has not been found in neither Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. The timeframe of its arrival in Western Europe coincides with that of IE languages. It could not have been spoken by the original Basque speakers. The study of river names in Western Europe shows Basque like languages were more widespread before the arrival of IE, at a time earlier than the arrival of R1b there.

The point is: the timeframe of IE languages in Western Europe coincides with the spread of R1b. There is no R1b in either Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. How could it get to Western Europe and become the dominant lineage there if not with the spread of IE languages? Both events took place at about the same time. We know it by studying linguistic and the R1b clades.

You are not really familiar with R1b clades in Western Europe, are you? They are extremely recent, and their arrival coincides with that of IE languages. Just read about it and inform yourself. Western Europe is dominated by R1b-P312 and R1b-U106, they are both the most downstream (not upstream) clades. We knew the upstream clades are found in the East. It was not difficult to foresee an association with Yamnaya and Samara would have been reported: and it was, yesterday!

In that case Basques, to explain extreme prevalence of R1b, must have had a HUGE Aryan (which can only be Celtic) influence. Why is that this influence does not reflect in phenotype (few Basques are "Nordid", which is opposite of what one would expect from a mainly "Indo-European" populace)? Why is that Basque language has so few Celtic words?

But even assuming above, to assume an area absolutely not affected by Aryan invasion such as W Sicility, which also reflects in W Sicilian phenotypes (presented here extensively) where "Nordid" almost does not exist, is 30% Aryan is ludicruous to say the least!

BTW, are R1b niggers in Cameroon Aryan too?

Based on above, my opinion is that history, language and phenotype remain one's prime choice in determining a people's origin.

[Grace O'Malley]

uyghur r1b is not directly related to european r1b and seems to orginate from the near east/iran and not from the steppe. All ancient samples there were r1a so we can not simply divide indo-europeans in centum r1b and satem r1a.

I definitely have limited knowledge on the subject but often read Anthrogenica and they do indeed have quite a bit of knowledge on the subject so I suggest you read the long thread on there. You could possibly join and argue it out with them if you seek more knowledge on the subject. You can also have a battle of wits with Davidski on the subject. :)

[curupira]

You're speaking of the tree, I was speaking of the forest. Look at the bigger picture. The whole of Western Europe but the Basque region was Indo Europeanised. One should expect exceptions. In Iberia and Southwest France the process does not seem to have complete. The study of river names shows Basque related languages were much more widespread before the arrival of IE languages and R1b (which arrived at about the same time).

The R1b in Cameroon is R1b-V88, which is a brother of an upstream clade of R1b-M269. The vast majority of R1b in Europe are downstream versions of R1b-M269. Reich study, as it has been reported, shows the association of R1b-M269 upstream clades with Yamnaya and Samara. Before that R1b was probably in the area, Central Asia, the steppes, Iran, etc. 24000 years ago R1 was in Siberia. A brother of an upstream clade of R1b-M269 took the route down the Near East, North Africa and ended up in SSA Africa. Which is another story. We're speaking of R1b-M269 in Europe and what caused its expansion and dominance there.


In that case Basques, to explain extreme prevalence of R1b, must have had a HUGE Aryan (which can only be Celtic) influence. Why is that this influence does not reflect in phenotype (few Basques are "Nordid", which is opposite of what one would expect from a mainly "Indo-European" populace)? Why is that Basque language has so few Celtic words?

But even assuming above, to assume an area absolutely not affected by Aryan invasion such as W Sicility, which also reflects in W Sicilian phenotypes (presented here extensively) where Aryan looks make locals wonder of foreign origins, is 30% Aryan is ludicruous to say the least!

BTW, are R1b niggers in Cameroon Aryan too?

Based on above, my opinion is that history, language and race remain one's prime choice in determining a people's origin.

[Grace O'Malley]

In that case Basques, to explain extreme prevalence of R1b, must have had a HUGE Aryan (which can only be Celtic) influence. Why is that this influence does not reflect in phenotype (few Basques are "Nordid", which is opposite of what one would expect from a mainly "Indo-European" populace)? Why is that Basque language has so few Celtic words?

But even assuming above, to assume an area absolutely not affected by Aryan invasion such as W Sicility, which also reflects in W Sicilian phenotypes (presented here extensively) where "Nordid" almost does not exist, is 30% Aryan is ludicruous to say the least!

BTW, are R1b niggers in Cameroon Aryan too?

Based on above, my opinion is that history, language and phenotype remain one's prime choice in determining a people's origin.

R1b in Cameroon is V88 and obviously got there via an Asian route. This has nothing to do with Indo-European languages coming to Europe via R1b like Celtic (duh!) and it is just the same red herring argument used earlier about NAs having high ANE. Anyway words like Aryan are a bit outdated don't you think? I mean the original Aryans are Indian.

[curupira]

We're speaking of R1b-M269.

http://vizachero.com/R1b1/R1btreev2.png
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg

[blogen]

http://img.ie/2iv3z.jpg
(unetice = proto-Celts, tumulus = early Celts)

[blogen]

In that case Basques, to explain extreme prevalence of R1b, must have had a HUGE Aryan (which can only be Celtic) influence. Why is that this influence does not reflect in phenotype (few Basques are "Nordid", which is opposite of what one would expect from a mainly "Indo-European" populace)?

Because the average Celt were Mediterranid, Alpinid, Taurid or Cromagnoid and only a small minority between the Celts were Mediterrano-Nordoid form. :D

[curupira]

Read Gimbutas. She was right. Bell Beakers are associated with IE. Earliest R1b in Western Europe was found in Kromsdorf, East Germany. Well, not really Western Europe, but it shows the East-West movement. The Yamnaya/Samara news are just a final nail in the coffin of trolling.


The Bell Beaker complex, an offshoot of the Vucedol bloc (more precisely of the Zok-Mako group in Hungary) continued Kurgan charateristics. The Bell Beaker of the second half of the 3rd millenium BC were vagabondic horse riders and archers in much the same way as their uncles and cousins, the Corded people of northern Europe and Catacomb-grave people of the North Pontic region. Their spread over central and western Europe to the British Isles and Spain as well as the Mediterranean islands terminates the period of expansion and destruction.


In western Hungary and nothwestern Yugoslavia, the Vucedol complex was followed by the Samogyvar-Vinkovci complex, the predecessor of the Bell Beaker people. Furthermore, the exodus of the horse-riding Bell Beaker people in the middle of the 3rd millenium, or soon thereafter, from the territories of the Vucedol complex, may not be unconnected with the constant threat from the east. They carried to the west Kurgan traditions in armament, social structure, and religion. The fact of paramount importance of Bell Beaker mobility is the presence of the horse. Seven Bell Beaker sites at Budapest in Hungary have shown that the horse was the foremost species of the domestic fauna.


The spread of the already Indo-Europeanized central European population (the Corded Ware culture) to the northwest and northeast, as well as of the Bell Beaker people to the west, is hardly explainable without some insight into the role played by this element from the east. The Proto-Indo Europeans were able to expand to the west, to the east, and to the south primarily because of the horse. Renfrew has also failed to stress the enormous importance of the horse and horseback riding in his treatment of the Bell Beaker phenomenon.
From "The Kurgan culture and the Indo-Europeanization of Europe"


[IMG]
(unetice = proto-Celts, tumulus = early Celts)

[blogen]

Read Gimbutas.

Pls! The theory of Gimbutas is totally fals. Archeologically impossible a steppic origin indoeuropaization model in the European prehistory, because the western part of the Corded Ware culture and their ancestors never connected to the steppic cultures. And this western part of the Corded Ware was the homeland of the Germanic, Celtic and maybe Italic peoples, the Kentum peoples.

So now we wait, what is this R1b phenomenon in the steppe punctually!

[curupira]

The abstract of the study by Reich:


This talk will present a genome-wide analysis showing that Europeans today
largely derive from three highly differentiated ancestral populations: (1)
West European Hunter-Gatherers, who derive from the Upper Paleolithic
indigenous population of Europe and contributed ancestry to all Europeans
but not to Near Easterners; (2) Ancient North Eurasians related to Upper
Paleolithic Siberians, who contributed to both Europeans and Near
Easterners; and (3) Early European Farmers, who were mainly of Near
Eastern origin. However, our analysis of ancient genomes shows that the
Ancient North Eurasian ancestry that is ubiquitous in Europe today was rare
or absent at the time of the arrival of the Early European Farmers. To
understand when the Ancient North Eurasian ancestry arrived, we generated
genome-wide data from 69 Europeans who lived between 8,000-3,000 years
ago by enriching ancient DNA libraries for a target set of almost four
hundred thousand polymorphisms. This strategy decreases the sequencing
required for genome-wide ancient DNA analysis by about 250-fold, allowing
us to produce a dataset of genome-wide ancient DNA that is more than
double the size of the entire preceding literature. We show that the
populations of western and far eastern Europe followed opposite trajectories
between 8,000-5,000 years ago. At the beginning of the Neolithic period in
Europe, ~8,000-7,000 years ago, closely related groups of early farmers
appeared in Germany, Hungary, and Spain, different from indigenous huntergatherers,
whereas Russia was inhabited by a distinctive population of
hunter-gatherers with high affinity to a ~24,000 year old Siberian. By ~6,000-
5,000 years ago, a resurgence of hunter-gatherer ancestry had occurred
throughout much of Europe, but in Russia, the Yamnaya steppe herders of
this time were descended not only from the preceding eastern European
hunter-gatherers, but also from a population of Near Eastern ancestry.

Western and Eastern Europe came into contact ~4,500 years ago, as the Late
Neolithic Corded Ware people from Germany traced ~3/4 of their ancestry to
the Yamnaya, documenting a massive migration into the heartland of Europe
from its eastern periphery. This steppe ancestry persisted in all sampled
central Europeans until at least ~3,000 years ago, and comprises about half
the ancestry of today’s northern Europeans. These results support the theory
of a steppe origin of at least some of the Indo-European languages of
Europe, and show the power of genome-wide ancient DNA studies to
document human migrations.
http://www.jesus.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/reich-seminar-2015.pdf

[Proto-Shaman]

You will just have to read up on the topic. Some people choose what they want to believe despite all the evidence. You are one of the few dissenters and obviously have your own reasons. Anyway that map is not entirely accurate.
The evidence is clear, ANE peaks among agglutinative speakers such as Picts, Finns, Ugrics, North Caucasians, Central Turkics, Eastern Iranics, Siberians, some South-East Asians and many Native Americans.

[Proto-Shaman]

Read Gimbutas. She was right. Bell Beakers are associated with IE. Earliest R1b in Western Europe was found in Kromsdorf, East Germany. Well, not really Western Europe, but it shows the East-West movement. The Yamnaya/Samara news are just a final nail in the coffin of trolling.

From "The Kurgan culture and the Indo-Europeanization of Europe"
It was shown by genetic dating that M. Gimbutas confused two migration flows in opposite directions and separated by a full millennia, both crossing the Eastern Europe, but originating and terminating in the opposite ends of the Eurasia (e.g. A. Klyosov, G. Tomezzoli, DNA Genealogy and Linguistics. Ancient Europe, Advances in Anthropology, 2013. Vol.3, No.2, pp. 101-111, and all prior related publications). The genetic analysis was first published in 2010, and the material accumulated since then invariably reinforces the genetic tracing and dating. M. Gimbutas could not have known that, she did not use biological data in her reconstruction. Her problem was not in the data she had available, the data was perfectly solid, but in the ideologically biased interpretation.

[curupira]

THE PAPER IS HERE! All 7 Yamnaya males are R-M269!

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433.full-text.pdf+html

[Graham]

Damn that's pretty conclusive!

[curupira]

What we were waiting for almost a decade. Yamnaya yDNA! All Yamnaya males were R1b-M269 (which is the upstream clade of the vast majority of European R1b clades). Samara was also R1b.
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433.full-text.pdf+html

http://i62.tinypic.com/r7216s.png

[Grace O'Malley]

Brilliant. My paternal ydna is M222 which is a subclade under M269. In fact it was listed as M269 on FTDNA before my brother had the M222 test. Very exciting news.

[curupira]

The R1b-M269 found in Yamnaya (in the expensive Kurgan burials):


Yamnaya males, all seven belonged to haplogroup R1b1a. Six of
these could be further assigned to haplogroup R1b1a2a, and five of these to haplogroup R1b1a2a2.
The uniformity of R1b Y-chromosomes in this sample suggests a patrilineal organization of the
Yamnaya, or at least of the people who were given expensive Kurgan burials.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Lol at how many people got butt hurt over R1b being steppic.

I can also think of a few people whose asses are going to be sore over at a certain forum.:coffee:

[Jackson]

I clicked on the thread seeing 14 pages, and there are only 7 when the page loads. What happened, thread split?

[FeederOfRavens]

The R1b-M269 found in Yamnaya (in the expensive Kurgan burials):


Yamnaya males, all seven belonged to haplogroup R1b1a. Six of
these could be further assigned to haplogroup R1b1a2a, and five of these to haplogroup R1b1a2a2.
The uniformity of R1b Y-chromosomes in this sample suggests a patrilineal organization of the
Yamnaya, or at least of the people who were given expensive Kurgan burials.



Even more evidence supporting the Masculine-centric culture of the PIEs. Proto-Indo-European society, being based around the Chief who rules the settlement, the Patriarch or "Dems-potis" who ruled the house and patrilineal relations and kinship between Men. Possibly, there was a warrior class that followed the Wolf, Bear, Eagle, etc composed of young men. The main god was the Sky father or "Dyēus Phatēr"(Like Zeus). There has also been the reconstruction of a large number of words relating to kinship relations. These all demonstrate a massively patriarchal, patrilocal and patrilineal social fabric.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Say does anyone know the specific location of the Yamna graves with R1b guys? Are they the graves east of the Dnieper or west?

[Jackson]

Perhaps some apology is owed to some of the creators of the origin myths of people of northern Britain, they weren't far off about being descended from Scythians (or rather, the people there before them) perhaps? :P

[Jackson]

Say does anyone know the specific location of the Yamna graves with R1b guys? Are they the graves east of the Dnieper or west?

Samara, north of the Caspian, i think.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Samara, north of the Caspian, i think.

That's interesting because the Yamna graves in that region are the ones that are considered to have classic evidence for an actual proto-nomadic lifestyle context. Those west of the Dnieper actually are in a more sedentary economic context with alot of interaction with Triploye culture. I wonder what their Y-HGs will be?

[Not a Cop]

Say does anyone know the specific location of the Yamna graves with R1b guys? Are they the graves east of the Dnieper or west?

http://s020.radikal.ru/i708/1502/80/62bf6773d149.png (http://www.radikal.ru)

[curupira]

Say does anyone know the specific location of the Yamna graves with R1b guys? Are they the graves east of the Dnieper or west?

I think they showed it on the study, from what I remember, is that it was not far from Samara. What I noticed is that those tested were the ones buried in the expensive Kurgans... :laugh:


this sample suggests a patrilineal organization of the
Yamnaya, or at least of the people who were given expensive Kurgan burials.

[curupira]

^ The map I showed is the one Not a Cop just posted.

[Grace O'Malley]

Perhaps some apology is owed to some of the creators of the origin myths of people of northern Britain, they weren't far off about being descended from Scythians (or rather, the people there before them) perhaps? :P

I did actually think of that but then I didn't want all the Milesian/Spanish thing to crop up because that is obviously off the mark but yes Scythian is not too far removed from the truth. So those old Irish myths have some grain of truth afterall. Well I'm amazed by all of this.

[Not a Cop]

What we were waiting for almost a decade. Yamnaya yDNA! All Yamnaya males were R1b-M269 (which is the upstream clade of the vast majority of European R1b clades). Samara was also R1b.
[]
R1a in Oleniy ostrov is also very interesting.

[Jackson]

That's interesting because the Yamna graves in that region are the ones that are considered to have classic evidence for an actual proto-nomadic lifestyle context. Those west of the Dnieper actually are in a more sedentary economic context with alot of interaction with Triploye culture. I wonder what their Y-HGs will be?

Perhaps they were more r1b1ba2a1 rather than r1b1ba2a2? My thought at least, remains to be seen.

[Jackson]

R1b steppe nomads make it hard to sleep at night.:( 5am here...

[Not a Cop]

Can anybody find the admiture proportions of Yamna people?(WHG-ANE-EEF)

[Grace O'Malley]

R1b steppe nomads make it hard to sleep at night.:( 5am here...

Haha it's pretty exciting. Some of the most exciting dna information in a long time. Can't believe the R1b story is finally becoming clearer.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Perhaps they were more r1b1ba2a1 rather than r1b1ba2a2? My thought at least, remains to be seen.

Maybe. Or perhaps M-17 since the western Yamna has some material overlap with CWC and M-17 was found in CWC. Also, the development of the Andronovo horizon has connection to CWC culture and the Andronovo males were all M-17.

It seems like the migration patterns were quite zigzaggy back then especially if we choose to connect BBC to Samara Yamna graves. Interesting too because the anthropologists always noted stark change from physical remains of pre-BBC sites in Western Europe to the actual Bell Beaker graves. It was an amazing migration to say the least with a profound genetic and cultural legacy.

The change in physical anthropology though from TRB, to GAC to CWC was apparently minimal. Still, there's a paper coming out that connects ANE to CWC.

[War Chef]

It's a damn shame they didn't get any Cucuteni-Trypillian samples. Maybe that would shed some light on the Near-Eastern affinities of Yamna. Anyway, who would've thought, western Europeans are more Indo-European than Eastern Europeans, at least paternally. Mind blowing stuff.

http://i.imgur.com/6oGjvRX.gif

[War Chef]

If Yamna are split even as Hunter Gatherer and Near Eastern, then the question is which one is responsible for the Indo-European tongue? And also is the R1b hot spot in the South-Caucasus a result of Indo-European expansion (Hittites, etc.) or actually the source of Yamna R1b itself? Is there any way to find out "downstream" and which R1b type is more archaic?

[Not a Cop]

It's a damn shame they didn't get any Cucuteni-Trypillian samples. Maybe that would shed some light on the Near-Eastern affinities of Yamna. Anyway, who would've thought, western Europeans are more Indo-European than Eastern Europeans, at least paternally. Mind blowing stuff.

http://i.imgur.com/6oGjvRX.gif

Other mind-blowing stuff is that Norwegians are on top of Yamna ancestry, if we will use CWC sample as proxy for invaders of Norway, Norwegians should come out about 60% CWC, no wonder that Swedo-Norwegian CWC period is sometimes named "Age of crushed skulls".

http://s017.radikal.ru/i429/1502/d2/6422e957b935.png (http://www.radikal.ru)

[War Chef]

Other mind-blowing stuff is that Norwegians are on top of Yamna ancestry, if we will use CWC sample as proxy for invaders of Norway, Norwegians should come out about 60% CWC, no wonder that Swedo-Norwegian CWC period is sometimes named "Age of crushed skulls".



Yes that's very surprising, especially as far away (on the opposite corner of Europe in fact) as Norway. I bought into Gimbutas quote: "The process of Indo-Europeanization was a cultural, not a physical, transformation. It must be understood as a military victory in terms of successfully imposing a new administrative system, language, and religion upon the indigenous groups." But now it's clear she was wrong, there was a whole lot of genocide, ethnic cleansing and then replacement. Poor LBK farmers....

[aherne]

Other mind-blowing stuff is that Norwegians are on top of Yamna ancestry, if we will use CWC sample as proxy for invaders of Norway, Norwegians should come out about 60% CWC, no wonder that Swedo-Norwegian CWC period is sometimes named "Age of crushed skulls".

http://s017.radikal.ru/i429/1502/d2/6422e957b935.png (http://www.radikal.ru)

Interesting graph. Roughly corresponds with racial as well as historical evidence (however, present as well as historical racial evidence shows Aryan considerably greater in Albanians compared to Greeks for example). However, how did they arrive to these percentages?

[Arch Hades]

The source isn't in print yet, lets wait till the actual study comes out before we draw conclusions.

[War Chef]

The source isn't in print yet, lets wait till the actual study comes out before we draw conclusions.

Dude.....

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433.full-text.pdf+html

[Arch Hades]

Dude.....

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433.full-text.pdf+html

Wow, thanks! I stand corrected. Where does it talk about haplogroup R1b?

[War Chef]

Wow, thanks! I stand corrected. Where does it talk about haplogroup R1b?

Somewhere in there it says all 7 Yamna belonged to Z2103 type R1b. The same archaic (and most likely ancestral) R1b types found in the near-east:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/MapMesopotamia2_mapopb41c.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/D7Wt0g5.png

Fits in well with animal domestication, Yamna were pastoralists after all:

http://i.imgur.com/Q0WQNhS.jpg

I've been repeating this for a very long time, before this paper was even published.

[aherne]

Other mind-blowing stuff is that Norwegians are on top of Yamna ancestry, if we will use CWC sample as proxy for invaders of Norway, Norwegians should come out about 60% CWC, no wonder that Swedo-Norwegian CWC period is sometimes named "Age of crushed skulls".


Not denying the HUGE demographic impact of Aryans onto the ethnogenesis of Germanics (hence the association of Aryan phenotype with Scandinavians), I find it odd that Slavs score lower. But anyway, this graph as well as all historical evidence shows how we are all mestizos. I could even use myself as an example how Aryan traits blend with CM (Faelid, Baltid) and Near Eastern (Alpine, Dinaric) so profoundly that I look different (randomly exposing one of those elements) in each picture...

[War Chef]

Not denying the HUGE demographic impact of Aryans onto the ethnogenesis of Germanics (hence the association of Aryan phenotype with Scandinavians), I find it odd that Slavs score lower. But anyway, this graph as well as all historical evidence shows how we are all mestizos. I could even use myself as an example how Aryan traits blend with CM (Faelid, Baltid) and Near Eastern (Alpine, Dinaric) so profoundly that I look different (randomly exposing one of those elements) in each picture...

Because Slavs are partly diluted with Cucuteni-Trypillian genes as both thrived on the chornozem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem). Mark my words soon we will find out the Trypillin origins of Slavs. Mega-cities like this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?153426-6-000-Year-Old-Temple-Unearthed-in-Ukraine)didn't just disappear, I have a feeling they dispersed northwards and mixed with Yamna to become proto-Slavs (proto-Slavs were farmers not pastoralists, main clue).

[Not a Cop]

Not denying the HUGE demographic impact of Aryans onto the ethnogenesis of Germanics (hence the association of Aryan phenotype with Scandinavians), I find it odd that Slavs score lower. But anyway, this graph as well as all historical evidence shows how we are all mestizos. I could even use myself as an example how Aryan traits blend with CM (Faelid, Baltid) and Near Eastern (Alpine, Dinaric) so profoundly that I look different (randomly exposing one of those elements) in each picture...

I aslo find it odd that NE Euros score lower, it also contradicts with Polako's K8, also you have to note that Yamna component was mixed also.


Interesting graph. Roughly corresponds with racial as well as historical evidence (however, present as well as historical racial evidence shows Aryan considerably greater in Albanians compared to Greeks for example). However, how did they arrive to these percentages?

I don't know yet, this paper is very big and not very easy to understand, but i think that we'll get the answers soon.

[War Chef]

Jackpot:


Inhumation practices are mixed. Flat graves are found, but so are substantial kurgan burials, the latter of which may be surrounded by cromlechs. This points to a heterogeneous ethno-linguistic population (see section below). Late in the history of this culture, its people built kurgans of greatly varying sizes, containing greatly varying amounts and types of metalwork, with larger, wealthier kurgans surrounded by smaller kurgans containing less wealth. This trend suggests the eventual emergence of a marked social hierarchy. Their practice of storing relatively great wealth in burial kurgans was probably a cultural influence from the more ancient civilizations of the Fertile Crescent to the south.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura%E2%80%93Araxes_culture

Kura-Araxes is the "Armenian-like" other half of the Yamna and they brought domesticated animals to the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

http://i.imgur.com/HQIp4kU.jpg

Been saying this for years. Get fucked, everyone.

[Grace O'Malley]

Other mind-blowing stuff is that Norwegians are on top of Yamna ancestry, if we will use CWC sample as proxy for invaders of Norway, Norwegians should come out about 60% CWC, no wonder that Swedo-Norwegian CWC period is sometimes named "Age of crushed skulls".

http://s017.radikal.ru/i429/1502/d2/6422e957b935.png (http://www.radikal.ru)

It's a pity they don't have Ireland on that especially as we Irish are overwhelmingly R1b-M269 and also my mother is over 16% ANE and I'm just under that as per K8.

[Harkonnen]

If Yamna are split even as Hunter Gatherer and Near Eastern, then the question is which one is responsible for the Indo-European tongue? And also is the R1b hot spot in the South-Caucasus a result of Indo-European expansion (Hittites, etc.) or actually the source of Yamna R1b itself? Is there any way to find out "downstream" and which R1b type is more archaic?

Actually the basal R1bs and R1as are found further south in Iran and Central Asia and so. Do you have any idea of Pre-Proto-IE? If it's related to Semitic, the farmer component should be the actual IE then.

[blogen]

That is a serious problem!

Firstly:

1. In this case, the Aryans in the Andronovo culture were assimilated local peoples (Botai, etc.), presumably R1a Uralic speakers.
2. So the R1a carriers were the pre-Indoeuropean mesolithic peoples.
3. The R1a Corded Ware peoples were not ancestors of the Western European R1b peoples.
4. So what was the route of the R1b indoeuropaization of Western-Europe?
5. And what was the origin of the Bellbeaker R1b in Central Europe?

I think, this steppic R1b is a paralell phenomenon with the Western European R1b.

[Harkonnen]

I mean of course not actual IE, but there is some reason to presume, that pre-proto-IE R1b migrations from Caucasus region brought those southern farming and herding vocabulary to proto IE.

[Grace O'Malley]

Interesting when you look at my K13 especially the mixed mode. It explains all those Eastern European and things like Chuvash.

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 52.04
2 Baltic 25.27
3 West_Med 9.81
4 West_Asian 7.25
5 East_Med 1.77
6 Red_Sea 1.5
7 Amerindian 1.38
8 Siberian 0.75
9 Oceanian 0.24

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Dutch 3.04
2 Irish 3.1
3 Norwegian 3.6
4 West_Scottish 3.61
5 Orcadian 3.82
6 Danish 3.86
7 North_German 5.45
8 Southeast_English 6.09
9 Southwest_English 6.26
10 Swedish 6.5
11 South_Dutch 10.22
12 West_German 11.04
13 North_Swedish 12.82
14 Austrian 15.29
15 East_German 15.45
16 French 15.89
17 Hungarian 19.56
18 Southwest_Finnish 21.09
19 Spanish_Cataluna 23.25
20 South_Polish 24.17

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.1% Irish + 42.9% Norwegian @ 2.28
2 50.1% Norwegian + 49.9% West_Scottish @ 2.33
3 77.2% Irish + 22.8% Swedish @ 2.54
4 51.6% North_Dutch + 48.4% Irish @ 2.56
5 70.2% West_Scottish + 29.8% Swedish @ 2.58
6 61.6% North_Dutch + 38.4% West_Scottish @ 2.6
7 88.2% Irish + 11.8% North_Swedish @ 2.61
8 94.4% Irish + 5.6% Finnish @ 2.67
9 94.5% Irish + 5.5% La_Brana-1 @ 2.68
10 93.4% Irish + 6.6% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.72
11 95.3% Irish + 4.7% East_Finnish @ 2.72
12 76.2% Irish + 23.8% North_German @ 2.72
13 66.7% West_Scottish + 33.3% North_German @ 2.74
14 96.7% Irish + 3.3% Chuvash @ 2.74
15 84.2% West_Scottish + 15.8% North_Swedish @ 2.75
16 65.5% Irish + 34.5% Danish @ 2.75
17 92% West_Scottish + 8% Finnish @ 2.77
18 97.1% Irish + 2.9% Mari @ 2.78
19 95.4% Irish + 4.6% Estonian @ 2.79
20 96.4% Irish + 3.6% Erzya @ 2.8

[Arhat]

sorry but their is one major problem about the conclusion that yamna r1b is ancestral to western europeean r1b. The yamnaya samples belonged to r1b-2103 which is a near eastern/southern caucasus subclade and not ancestral to western european r1b so yamna males there are not the paternal ancestors of most r1b carriers in western europe. Either they orginated in the near east or less likely they brought r1b-2103 to the near east. But western europe was not really impacted by them.
55005

[Hevo]

sorry but their is one major problem about the conclusion that yamna r1b is ancestral to western europeean r1b. The yamnaya samples belonged to r1b-2103 which is a near eastern/southern caucasus subclade and not ancestral to western european r1b so yamna males there are not the paternal ancestors of most r1b carriers in western europe. Either they orginated in the near east or less likely they brought r1b-2103 to the near east. But western europe was not really impacted by them
55005

Not all of the Yamna samples were R1b-2103.



I0439 (Yamnaya) This individual could be assigned to haplogroup R1b1a (P297:18656508G→C), with upstream haplogroup R1 (M173:15026424A→C, M306:22750583C→A) also supported. It was ancestral for haplogroup R1b1a2a1 (L51:8502236G→A) and so could be designated R1b1a*(xR1b1a2a1).


I0443 (Yamnaya) This individual could only be assigned to haplogroup R1b1a2a (L49.1:2842212T→A, L23:6753511G→A). It could also be assigned to the upstream haplogroups R1b1a2 (PF6399:2668456C→T, L150.1:10008791C→T, L1353:19179540G→A, PF6509:22190371A→G, M269:22739367T→C, CTS12478:28590278G→A). The individual was ancestral for haplogroup R1b1a2a1 (L51/M412:8502236G→A) and, unlike I0231, I0370 and I0438 also for R1b1a2a2 (Z2105:15747432C→A). Thus, it could be designated as R1b1a2a*(xR1b1a2a1, R1b1a2a2)

[blogen]

sorry but their is one major problem about the conclusion that yamna r1b is ancestral to western europeean r1b. The yamnaya samples belonged to r1b-2103 which is a near eastern/southern caucasus subclade and not ancestral to western european r1b so yamna males there are not the paternal ancestors of most r1b carriers in western europe. Either they orginated in the near east or less likely they brought r1b-2103 to the near east. But western europe was not really impacted by them.
55005

Then, these problems are solved:


That is a serious problem!

Firstly:

1. In this case, the Aryans in the Andronovo culture were assimilated local peoples (Botai, etc.), presumably R1a Uralic speakers.
2. So the R1a carriers were the pre-Indoeuropean mesolithic peoples.
3. The R1a Corded Ware peoples were not ancestors of the Western European R1b peoples.
4. So what was the route of the R1b indoeuropaization of Western-Europe?
5. And what was the origin of the Bellbeaker R1b in Central Europe?

I think, this steppic R1b is a paralell phenomenon with the Western European R1b.

The steppic R1b not connected to the Western European R1b and the R1a Corded Ware peoples were not the ancestors of the Western European R1b peoples.

Nothing changed.

[blogen]

But we know only one thing: Lot of local Sarmatian origin Alans were between the ancestors of the middle Volga valley Turks and basically some Chuvash peoples are the living descendants of these Yamna peoples.

[Grace O'Malley]

But we know only one thing: Lot of local Sarmatian origin Alans were between the ancestors of the middle Volga valley Turks and basically some Chuvash peoples are the living descendants of these Yamna peoples.

This is my brother's K13 admixed results. We both get some Chuvash. It's a bit of a coincidence that these groups turn up. It does show some deep ancestry from these areas so what can explain that better than R1b and along with high ANE which has to have come from the Steppes. It is just plain logic to me.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 97.4% Irish + 2.6% Kalash @ 2.03
2 97.6% Irish + 2.4% Balochi @ 2.05
3 97.7% Irish + 2.3% Brahui @ 2.07
4 97% Irish + 3% Tabassaran @ 2.11
5 97.6% Irish + 2.4% Burusho @ 2.14
6 97.3% Irish + 2.7% Afghan_Pashtun @ 2.14
7 97.2% Irish + 2.8% Chechen @ 2.15
8 97.7% Irish + 2.3% Punjabi_Jat @ 2.17
9 97.3% Irish + 2.7% Lezgin @ 2.17
10 97.5% Irish + 2.5% North_Ossetian @ 2.18
11 97.9% Irish + 2.1% Makrani @ 2.18
12 97.5% Irish + 2.5% Ossetian @ 2.18
13 97.4% Irish + 2.6% Kabardin @ 2.19
14 97.7% Irish + 2.3% Pathan @ 2.19
15 97.9% Irish + 2.1% Sindhi @ 2.2
16 97.2% Irish + 2.8% Tadjik @ 2.2
17 97.5% Irish + 2.5% Balkar @ 2.21
18 97.6% Irish + 2.4% Adygei @ 2.23
19 97.6% Irish + 2.4% Afghan_Tadjik @ 2.27
20 98.1% Irish + 1.9% Abhkasian @ 2.27

[Arhat]

This is my brother's K13 admixed results. We both get some Chuvash. It's a bit of a coincidence that these groups turn up. It does show some deep ancestry from these areas so what can explain that better than R1b and along with high ANE which has to have come from the Steppes. It is just plain logic to me.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 97.4% Irish + 2.6% Kalash @ 2.03
2 97.6% Irish + 2.4% Balochi @ 2.05
3 97.7% Irish + 2.3% Brahui @ 2.07
4 97% Irish + 3% Tabassaran @ 2.11
5 97.6% Irish + 2.4% Burusho @ 2.14
6 97.3% Irish + 2.7% Afghan_Pashtun @ 2.14
7 97.2% Irish + 2.8% Chechen @ 2.15
8 97.7% Irish + 2.3% Punjabi_Jat @ 2.17
9 97.3% Irish + 2.7% Lezgin @ 2.17
10 97.5% Irish + 2.5% North_Ossetian @ 2.18
11 97.9% Irish + 2.1% Makrani @ 2.18
12 97.5% Irish + 2.5% Ossetian @ 2.18
13 97.4% Irish + 2.6% Kabardin @ 2.19
14 97.7% Irish + 2.3% Pathan @ 2.19
15 97.9% Irish + 2.1% Sindhi @ 2.2
16 97.2% Irish + 2.8% Tadjik @ 2.2
17 97.5% Irish + 2.5% Balkar @ 2.21
18 97.6% Irish + 2.4% Adygei @ 2.23
19 97.6% Irish + 2.4% Afghan_Tadjik @ 2.27
20 98.1% Irish + 1.9% Abhkasian @ 2.27

i dont get your point. Everyone in northern europe has some "chuvash" components. A russian with haplogroup I will have much more chuvash genes than you but this does not mean that haplogroup I is the reason for that. This yamna males orginated from the near east where most r1a-z2103 is found today. Western european r1b is not directly derived from yamna and we still have no idea from where it orginated

[blogen]

i dont get your point. Everyone in northern europe has some "chuvash" components. A russian with haplogroup I will have much more chuvash genes than you but this does not mean that haplogroup I is the reason for that. This yamna males orginated from the near east where most r1a-z2103 is found today. Western european r1b is not directly derived from yamna and we still have no idea from where it orginated

Bell_Beaker_LN Bell Beaker LN Quedlinburg VII 2, Germany; QLB28b, feature 19617 2296-2206 cal BCE (MAMS 22820) Germany M H1 R1b1a2a1a2 91757

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

[Grace O'Malley]

Well it is interesting that R1a is lacking in Yamnaya and it is still quite amazing that R1b is there and a lot of people would have expected the opposite.

[Arhat]

Bell_Beaker_LN Bell Beaker LN Quedlinburg VII 2, Germany; QLB28b, feature 19617 2296-2206 cal BCE (MAMS 22820) Germany M H1 R1b1a2a1a2 91757

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

many assume that the bell beaker were not indo-european or indo-europeanized through contact with the corded war culture. Their subclades are absent in the steppe and none of western european r1b was found in asia. Allmost all r1b in asia seems to be z2103 so maybe some in the steppe or in asia got r1b from this yamna males but not western europeans

[Grace O'Malley]

i dont get your point. Everyone in northern europe has some "chuvash" components. A russian with haplogroup I will have much more chuvash genes than you but this does not mean that haplogroup I is the reason for that. This yamna males orginated from the near east where most r1a-z2103 is found today. Western european r1b is not directly derived from yamna and we still have no idea from where it orginated

Well I am Northern European and of course Russians would have more been from that vacinity but it does show ancestry from these places and I don't think everyone's results are the same.

[Grace O'Malley]

Ireland is high in both ANE and R1b so the R1b in Ireland came from a high ANE area.

Well whatever people think it is very interesting and hopefully on the way to solving R1b in Europe.

[curupira]

You're still keeping on it, aren't you? All males in Yamnaya were R1b-M269, R1b-L23, just as the majority of the males in Europe. The clade of most of these males is a brother clade of that which went to Western Europe. The association between R1b and IE languages is now pretty clear. In Samara, an older R1b was found.

The clade found is closely connected to that which spread later to Western Europe, they are both R1b-M269, R1b-L23 clades:

http://i61.tinypic.com/10mkmxv.png


sorry but their is one major problem about the conclusion that yamna r1b is ancestral to western europeean r1b. The yamnaya samples belonged to r1b-2103 which is a near eastern/southern caucasus subclade and not ancestral to western european r1b so yamna males there are not the paternal ancestors of most r1b carriers in western europe. Either they orginated in the near east or less likely they brought r1b-2103 to the near east. But western europe was not really impacted by them.
55005

[blogen]

many assume that the bell beaker were not indo-european or indo-europeanized through contact with the corded war culture. Their subclades are absent in the steppe and none of western european r1b was found in asia. Allmost all r1b in asia seems to be z2103 so maybe some in the steppe or in asia got r1b from this yamna males but not western europeans

I think, the Bellbeakers were the ancestors of the Basques. But! Finally both group came from the Near/Middle-East. This R1b in the steppe is the cross on the Kurgan theory's grave. The Yamna ancestors came from south of the Caucasus from an oriental R1b carrier population. And the R1a Aryan theory is doomed with this. The R1a was presumably the mesolithic heritage here and in Central Asia too. So the average Indoaryan were indoeuropized Uralic or other pre-Indoeuropean (Botai, etc.).

Priceless! (poor Slavic Aryans:D) But not surprise, since the average R1a carrier are Cromagnoid (Baltid, etc.) or Lapponoid/Alpinoid, so racially the descendants of the mesolithic peoples, so a PIE origin R1a there would have been a surprise. However, a PIE origin R1b subclade in the steppe is not a surprise, but a warm regards from Anatolia.

[Arhat]

I think, the Bellbeakers were the ancestors of the Basques. But! Finally both group came from the Near/Middle-East. This R1b in the steppe is the cross on the Kurgan theory's grave. The Yamna ancestors came from south of the Caucasus from an oriental R1b carrier population. And the R1a Aryan theory is doomed with this. The R1a was presumably the mesolithic heritage here and in Central Asia too. So the average Indoaryan were indoeuropized Uralic or other pre-Indoeuropean (Botai, etc.).

Priceless! (poor Slavic Aryans:D) But not surprise, since the average R1a carrier are Cromagnoid (Baltid, etc.) or Lapponoid/Alpinoid, so racially the descendants of the mesolithic peoples, so a PIE origin R1a there would have been a surprise. However, a PIE origin R1b subclade in the steppe is not a surprise, but a warm regards from Anatolia.

:picard2: haplogroup N is practically absent among indo-iranian centra, west and south asians. Also no traces of N were found in andronovo or among the tarim mummies so it is very unlikely that indo-iranians were assimilated finno-ugrians what is of course simply bullshit.

[blogen]

:picard2: haplogroup N is practically absent among indo-iranian centra, west and south asians. Also no traces of N were found in andronovo or among the tarim mummies so it is very unlikely that indo-iranians were assimilated finno-ugrians what is of course simply bullshit.

The Haplogroup N was not neccesary common between the southern Uralic speaker populations and culturally the ancestors of the Bronze age Ugrics were relatives of the Botai peoples.

[Vasconcelos]

How do we explain the Basques having such ridiculously high amounts of R1b, yet not being IE-speakers?

[curupira]

Vennemann studied old european river names, showing a correlation with Basque languages in Western Europe. Celtic languages arrived after that, just like the clades of R1b-M269 in Western Europe. Here you go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasconic_substratum_theory

Basque R1b is not associated with the Basque languages. Like all Iberian R1b, it is R1b-P312, a very new haplogroup which got there very recently, perhaps as recent as 2000 years BC (at the same time Lusitanian and Celtic IE languages got in Iberia).

The timeframe of its arrival in Western Europe coincides with that of IE languages. It could not have been spoken by the original Basque speakers. The study of river names in Western Europe shows Basque like languages were more widespread before the arrival of IE, at a time earlier than the arrival of R1b there.

The point is: the timeframe of IE languages in Western Europe coincides with the spread of R1b-M269 There is no R1b-M269 in either Mesolithic or Neolithic Europe. How could it get to Western Europe and become the dominant lineage there if not with the spread of IE languages? Both events took place at about the same time. We know it by studying linguistic and the R1b clades.

They are extremely recent, and their arrival coincides with that of IE languages. Western Europe is dominated by R1b-P312 and R1b-U106, they are both the most downstream (not upstream) clades. We knew the upstream clades are found in the East. It was not difficult to foresee an association with Yamnaya and Samara would have been reported: and it was, yesterday!


How do we explain the Basques having such ridiculously high amounts of R1b, yet not being IE-speakers?

[curupira]

^ Look at the bigger picture. The whole of Western Europe but the Basque region was Indo Europeanised. One should expect exceptions. In Iberia and Southwest France the process does not seem to have complete. The study of river names shows Basque related languages were much more widespread before the arrival of IE languages and R1b (which arrived at about the same time).

[blogen]

(which arrived at about the same time).

Based on what after this study about the different Yamna clads?

[curupira]

The timeframe of the arrival of R1b-M269 and of IE languages in Western Europe is the same, and they came after the Basque languages in Western Europe (the study of river names in Western Europe shows Basque languages were there before the arrival of R1b-M269 and IE languages).


Based on what after this study about the different Yamna clads?

[blogen]

The timeframe of the arrival of R1b-M269 and of IE languages in Western Europe is the same, and they came after the Basque languages in Western Europe (the study of river names in Western Europe shows Basque languages were there before the arrival of R1b-M269 and IE languages).

Bell Beaker Germany Kromsdorf [grave 5] M 2600–2500 BC R1b1b2 M343, M269
Bell Beaker Germany Kromsdorf [grave 8] M 2600–2500 BC R1b M343 (M269 unclear)

This happened much before the Urnfield peoples expansion.

[curupira]

Bell Beakers and IE are associated. Gimbutas already foresaw it, and now DNA is proving it too:


The Bell Beaker complex, an offshoot of the Vucedol bloc (more precisely of the Zok-Mako group in Hungary) continued Kurgan charateristics. The Bell Beaker of the second half of the 3rd millenium BC were vagabondic horse riders and archers in much the same way as their uncles and cousins, the Corded people of northern Europe and Catacomb-grave people of the North Pontic region. Their spread over central and western Europe to the British Isles and Spain as well as the Mediterranean islands terminates the period of expansion and destruction.


In western Hungary and nothwestern Yugoslavia, the Vucedol complex was followed by the Samogyvar-Vinkovci complex, the predecessor of the Bell Beaker people. Furthermore, the exodus of the horse-riding Bell Beaker people in the middle of the 3rd millenium, or soon thereafter, from the territories of the Vucedol complex, may not be unconnected with the constant threat from the east. They carried to the west Kurgan traditions in armament, social structure, and religion. The fact of paramount importance of Bell Beaker mobility is the presence of the horse. Seven Bell Beaker sites at Budapest in Hungary have shown that the horse was the foremost species of the domestic fauna.


The spread of the already Indo-Europeanized central European population (the Corded Ware culture) to the northwest and northeast, as well as of the Bell Beaker people to the west, is hardly explainable without some insight into the role played by this element from the east.


The Proto-Indo Europeans were able to expand to the west, to the east, and to the south primarily because of the horse. Renfrew has also failed to stress the enormous importance of the horse and horseback riding in his treatment of the Bell Beaker phenomenon.

From "The Kurgan culture and the Indo-Europeanization of Europe"


Bell Beaker Germany Kromsdorf [grave 5] M 2600–2500 BC R1b1b2 M343, M269
Bell Beaker Germany Kromsdorf [grave 8] M 2600–2500 BC R1b M343 (M269 unclear)

This happened much before the Urnfield peoples expansion.

[blogen]

Bell Beakers and IE are associated. Gimbutas already foresaw it, and now DNA is proving it too

Sorry, but these Bellbeaker samples came from German and not from the Carpathian basin, where the westernmost steppic influence existed and both sample are totally distant from the steppic clads, since these Bellbeaker clads are the western clads.

[Hevo]

Bell_Beaker_LN Bell Beaker LN Quedlinburg VII 2, Germany; QLB28b, feature 19617 2296-2206 cal BCE (MAMS 22820) Germany M H1 R1b1a2a1a2 91757

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif


The map is R1b1a2a1a1 (in other words R1b-U106) and R1b1a2a1a2 that has been found is R1b P312, ancestral to subclades like R1b L21 and R1b U152. R1b U106 has not been found.

[curupira]

With the study of yesterday, the oldest R1b sample has been revised. Now the oldest R1b found is that one from Samara (Russia), it is ~7550 kya old.

[blogen]

With the study of yesterday, the oldest R1b sample has been revised. Now the oldest R1b found is that one from Samara (Russia), it is ~7550 kya old.

And this clad is not the ancestor of the Western European clads.

[blogen]

The map is R1b1a2a1a1 (in other words R1b-U106) and R1b1a2a1a2 that has been found is R1b P312, ancestral to subclades like R1b L21 and R1b U152. R1b U106 has not been found.

This is the R1b1a2a1a1 map:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Celtic_Europe.gif

[Proto-Shaman]

waiting for your considerations...

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/drfaust_spb/8231138/13406/13406_original.png
http://www.r1b.org/imgs/M269_without_L23.png

[curupira]

And this clad is not the ancestor of the Western European clads.

It is the upstream clade. Read the study, please.


I0124 (Samara_HG)
The hunter-gatherer from Samara belonged to haplogroup R1b1 (L278:18914441C→T), with
upstream haplogroup R1b (M343:2887824C→A) also supported. However, he was ancestral for both
the downstream haplogroup R1b1a1 (M478:23444054T→C) and R1b1a2 (M269:22739367T→C) and
could be designated as R1b1*(xR1b1a1, R1b1a2). Thus, this individual was basal to most west
Eurasian R1b individuals which belong to the R-M269 lineage as well as to the related R-M73/M478
lineage that has a predominantly non-European distribution17. The occurrence of chromosomes basal
to the most prevalent lineages within haplogroups R1a and R1b in eastern European hunter-gatherers,
together with the finding of basal haplogroup R* in the ~24,000-year old Mal’ta (MA1) boy18
suggests the possibility that some of the differentiation of lineages within haplogroup R occurred in
north Eurasia, although we note that we do not have ancient DNA data from more southern regions of
Eurasia. Irrespective of the more ancient origins of this group of lineages, the occurrence of basal
forms of R1a and R1b in eastern European hunter-gatherers provide a geographically plausible source
for these lineages in later Europeans where both lineages are prevalent4,17,19

[Äijä]

:picard2: haplogroup N is practically absent among indo-iranian centra, west and south asians. Also no traces of N were found in andronovo or among the tarim mummies so it is very unlikely that indo-iranians were assimilated finno-ugrians what is of course simply bullshit.

What samples are there from Andoronovo horizon?

[Äijä]

Any one have a good tree for R? Or R1b and R1a separately? Someone should do one like this for N.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/SNP-N-TREE.jpg

[glass]

So r1b tatars and bashkirs are more aryan than russkies?
How is corded r1a related to yamnaya r1b?

[Äijä]

So r1b tatars and bashkirs are more aryan than russkies?
How is corded r1a related to yamnaya r1b?

I would also like to know what R1a1 the Mesolithic Karelian sample is.

[blogen]

It is the upstream clade. Read the study, please.

These were the Yamna samples (the 72% R1b1a2a2 is irrevelant here):

I0231 10.02 R1b1a2a2 Yamnaya
I0370 0.97 R1b1a2a2 Yamnaya
I0429 1.06 R1b1a2a2 Yamnaya
I0438 1.00 R1b1a2a2 Yamnaya
I0439 0.33 R1b1a Yamnaya
I0443 9.10 R1b1a2a Yamnaya
I0444 0.79 R1b1a2a2 Yamnaya

The R1b1 is ~12,000, the R1b1a2 is ~8000, while the R1b1a2a1/2 is ~7000 years old.

Basically all of them older than the neolithic cultures in the Eastern European steppe and because of this, no evidence onto a Yamna origin R1b1a2a1 clad. Or more punctually this is not evidence onto this. Yes, some people, with similar paternal genetic structre than the Western European R1b peoples ancestors existed between the Yamna peoples too. This was only a paralell presence.

[blogen]

So r1b tatars and bashkirs are more aryan than russkies?

Yes.


How is corded r1a related to yamnaya r1b?

Zero connection based on this. The R1a presence in Europe was presumably independent from the Indoeuropeans spread. Maybe mesolithic heritage.

[curupira]

Now Samara R1b is the oldest R1b to date found, dating back to 7000 years ago, a native Eastern European hunter gatherer lineage, and it was found in the vicinity of Yamnaya. In Yamnaya, a closely connected clade to that of R1b-L51, which went West, was found.

All males in Yamnaya were R1b-M269, R1b-L23, just as the majority of the males in Europe. The clade of most of these males is a brother clade of that which went to Western Europe. The association between R1b and IE languages is now pretty clear.

The clade found is closely connected to that which spread later to Western Europe, they are both R1b-M269, R1b-L23 clades (look at the timeframe of L51; there is a temporal limit from L23 to L51; it fits perfectly with the spread of IE languages to Western Europe at the same time).

http://i61.tinypic.com/10mkmxv.png




These were the Yamna samples (the 72% R1b1a2a2 is irrevelant here):

I0231 10.02 R1b1a2a2 Yamnaya
I0370 0.97 R1b1a2a2 Yamnaya
I0429 1.06 R1b1a2a2 Yamnaya
I0438 1.00 R1b1a2a2 Yamnaya
I0439 0.33 R1b1a Yamnaya
I0443 9.10 R1b1a2a Yamnaya
I0444 0.79 R1b1a2a2 Yamnaya

The R1b1 is ~12,000, the R1b1a2 is ~8000, while the R1b1a2a1/2 is ~7000 years old.

Basically all of them older than the neolithic cultures in the Eastern European steppe and because of this, no evidence onto a Yamna origin R1b1a2a1 clad. Or more punctually this is not evidence onto this. Yes, some people, with similar paternal genetic structre than the Western European R1b peoples ancestors existed between the Yamna peoples too. This was only a paralell presence.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Nice documentary on BBC and IE's:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmHXBXG7Loo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNNePv5Hu5Y

[Äijä]

Baltic Finns reached the Baltic Sea in the Bronze Age, the Finnish horses are from the Eurasian steppe and the cattle from the Caucasus.

I connect the horses to the N folk, I dont know whos cattle they got and how.

[Hevo]

This is the R1b1a2a1a1 map:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Celtic_Europe.gif

10806 (Bell_Beaker_LN)
The individual was assigned to haplogroup R1b1a2a1a2 based on mutation P312:22157311C→A.
Two Bell Beaker individuals from Kromsdorf, Germany were previously determined2
to belong to
haplogroup R1b.
The individual also has upstream mutations for R1 (P236:17782178C→G), R1b1
(L278:18914441C→T), R1b1a2 (F1794:14522828G→A), and R1b1a2a1 (L51:8502236G→A). Its
haplotype is ancestral for R1b1a2a1a2a1a1a (S1217:7193830C→G, Z262:16320197C→T),
R1b1a2a1a2c1a (DF49:22735599G→A), R1b1a2a1a2c1a1 (DF23:17774409G→A), R1b1a2a1a2c1f1
(L554:15022777A→G), R1b1a2a1a2c1f2 (S868:19033817T→C), R1b1a2a1a2c1i
(CTS6581:16992602T→C) and R1b1a2a1a2c1l1a1 (CTS2457.2:14313081C→T).

[Arhat]

So r1b tatars and bashkirs are more aryan than russkies?
How is corded r1a related to yamnaya r1b?

aryan is not the same like indo-european. Aryans are only indo-iranians and they are predominately r1a , some of them pashtuns and brahims have 60% r1a and no r1b.
we dont know which language was spokenby this males and the yamna males left practically almost no genetic traces in eastern and northern europe because their subclade of r1b is near eastern and today only frequent among armenians and other south caucasians. It is not ancestral to western european r1b and it is likely that other subclades of r1b and r1a were also widespread in the yamna culture.

The samples were took from here https://www.google.com/maps/place/Samara,+Samara+Oblast,+Russia/@51.2818983,49.0815915,4z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x416618e22bd879d3:0xba95cda9bb3a0 30b and are probably not representative for the whole yamna culture

[blogen]

Now Samara R1b is the oldest R1b to date found, dating back to 7000 years ago, a native Eastern European hunter gatherer lineage

This is your hallucination only. The Yamna were a neolithic culture in the reality and the age of these two burials: 3305-2925 cal BCE and 3300-2700 BCE.

[blogen]

aryan is not the same indo-european. Aryans are only indo-iranians and they are predominately r1a , some of them pashtuns and brahims have 60% r1a and no r1b.
we dont know which language was spoken in yamna and the yamna males left practically almost no genetic traces in eastern and northern europe because their subclade of r1b is near eastern and today only frequent among armenians and other south caucasians. It is not ancestral to western european r1b

But the Yamna was the ancestor culture of the Andronovo and the Andronovans were proto-Aryans definitely.

[Äijä]

But the Yamna was the ancestor culture of the Andronovo and the Andronovans were proto-Aryans definitely.

People forget sometimes that Uralic Urheimat points the time and place of Indo-European origin, the two cant be separated.

[Arhat]

But the Yamna was the ancestor culture of the Andronovo and the Andronovans were proto-Aryans definitely.

Do you have any proof for that? r1b was not found in andronovo and they were almost entirely r1a carriers 9/10 + c 1/10. This males are not the ancestors of andronovo people. This samples were from a small region and the results dont exclude that r1a and maybe other subclades of r1b were widespread in the steppe. There is also confirmation of the 3,000 year R1a carrier from the Tanais site near Rostov-on-Don so r1a was at least already present there 3000 years ago

[Jackson]

It's pretty clear looking at the modern distribution of the Samaran R1b that the descendants of people living in that locale specifically must have gone south and east, while people further west in Yamnaya were probably ancestral to western European R1b. Hardly surprising, Samara was in a better position to go those directions, evidently, while Yamnayans somewhat north of the black sea or between the black sea and caspian must have gone west.

[curupira]

The ~7000 years old Samara R1b is not, read the study, they explicitly say it (and check the study, that Samara does not show any Near East input, that's how the oldest R1b to date looked like). He was the predecessor of Yamnaya. Both the R1b-M269-L23 which was found in Yamnaya and the one which went to West Europe are thus likely to have come from that vicinity.


I0124 (Samara_HG)
The hunter-gatherer from Samara belonged to haplogroup R1b1 (L278:18914441C→T), with
upstream haplogroup R1b (M343:2887824C→A) also supported. However, he was ancestral for both
the downstream haplogroup R1b1a1 (M478:23444054T→C) and R1b1a2 (M269:22739367T→C) and
could be designated as R1b1*(xR1b1a1, R1b1a2). Thus, this individual was basal to most west
Eurasian R1b individuals which belong to the R-M269 lineage as well as to the related R-M73/M478
lineage that has a predominantly non-European distribution17. The occurrence of chromosomes basal
to the most prevalent lineages within haplogroups R1a and R1b in eastern European hunter-gatherers,
together with the finding of basal haplogroup R* in the ~24,000-year old Mal’ta (MA1) boy18
suggests the possibility that some of the differentiation of lineages within haplogroup R occurred in
north Eurasia, although we note that we do not have ancient DNA data from more southern regions of
Eurasia. Irrespective of the more ancient origins of this group of lineages, the occurrence of basal
forms of R1a and R1b in eastern European hunter-gatherers provide a geographically plausible source
for these lineages in later Europeans where both lineages are prevalent4,17,19



This is your hallucination only. The Yamna were a neolithic culture in the reality and the age of these two burials: 3305-2925 cal BCE and 3300-2700 BCE.

[Graham]

Conclusions
We can discern three different groups of hunter-gatherers who lived in Europe before thearrival of the first farmers: western European hunter-gatherers (WHG) in Spain, Luxembourg,and Hungary; eastern European hunter-gatherers (EHG) in Russia, and Scandinavian huntergatherers (SHG) in Sweden.

We can show that the early farmers of Europe descended from a common ancestral population. However, by the Middle Neolithic period they had experienced a resurgence of ancestry related to the WHG. In the Russian steppe, where farming did not get established, the Yamnaya pastoralists emerged as a mixture of the EHG and a Near Eastern population.

Thus, while hunter-gatherer ancestry was increasing in western Europe, it was decreasing in eastern Europe. The two regions of Europe came into contact during the Late Neolithic period, when, beginning with the Corded Ware, migrants from the east, related to the EHG or the Yamnaya, arrived in central Europe.

This does not seem to have been a process of slow infiltration of eastern populations over a prolonged period of time, as the earliest population (Corded Ware) was more closely related to the eastern groups than all the later ones.

Other Late Neolithic and Bronze Age populations, as well as all present-day Europeans, have less ancestry related to these eastern migrants than the Corded Ware population did.

[blogen]

Do you have any proof for that?

The eastern spread of the Yamna culture and the development of the Andronovo culture is a well known fact in the Eurasian archeology. There are various reason why the R1b is not found in the Andronovo:

1. This is only one sample group from the Samara culture and not from the other parts of the Yamna.
2. The R1a was not the Yamna peoples gene, but the pre-Indoeuropean peoples (Botai, etc.) heritage between the Aryans.
3. I0061 Karelia_HG Russian Mesolithic EHG Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia, Russia; UzOO74, grave 142, MAE RAS 5773-74 5500-5000 BCE Russia M C1g (formerly C1f) R1a1 341554


r1b was not found in andronovo and they were almost entirely r1a carriers 9/10 + c 1/10.

We have three Andronovo samples: 2 R1a1a and one C.


This males are not the ancestors of andronovo people.

This is fact.


This samples were from a small region and the results dont exclude that r1a and maybe other subclades of r1b were widespread in the steppe.

This is an another fact.


There is also confirmation of the 3,000 year R1a carrier from the Tanais site near Rostov-on-Don so r1a was at least already present there 3000 years ago

Yes, we have and R1a1a carrier from a Scythian Kurgan. The Scythians came from the Altay and this R1a1a presumably the Androvono R1a1a heritage between them.

[blogen]

The ~7000 years old Samara R1b is not, read the study, they explicitly say it (and check the study, that Samara does not show any Near East input, that's how the oldest R1b to date looked like). He was the predecessor of Yamnaya. Both the R1b-M269-L23 which was found in Yamnaya and the one which went to West Europe are thus likely to have come from that vicinity.

The 7000 years old Samara R1b1a was neolithic too!

I0124 Samara_HG Russian Neolithic HG EHG Sok River, Samara, Russia; SVP44 5650-5555 cal BCE (Beta – 392490) Russia M U5a1d R1b1a 206748

I0124/SVP44 (5640-5555 calBCE, Beta-392490)
is an adult male from grave 1 in a Neolithic-Eneolithic settlement producing artifacts from the
Elshanka, Samara, and Repin cultures. The specific site is Lebyazhinka IV, on the Sok River,
Samara oblast, Russia. (‘Neolithic’ here refers to the presence of ceramics, not to
domesticated animals or plants.) The radiocarbon date of this individual, based on a femur, is
centuries before the appearance of domesticated animals in the middle Volga region.
Lebyazhinka IV and the neighboring Lebyazhinka V site were occupied seasonally by
multiple cultures between 7000-3500 BCE; a few graves were found in the settled areas6.

[Arhat]

The eastern spread of the Yamna culture and the development of the Andronovo culture is a well known fact in the Eurasian archeology. There are various reason why the R1b is not found in the Andronovo:

1. This is only one sample group from the Samara culture and not from the other parts of the Yamna.
2. The R1a was not the Yamna peoples gene, but the pre-Indoeuropean peoples (Botai, etc.) heritage between the Aryans.
3.



We have three Andronovo samples: 2 R1a1a and one C.



This is fact.



This is an another fact.



Yes, we have and R1a1a carrier from a Scythian Kurgan. The Scythians came from the Altay and this R1a1a presumably the Androvono R1a1a heritage between them.

this is of course bullshit. R1a was also found in the corded ware culture and there is no reason to assume that all yamna people were r1b-z2103. Actually this is very unlikely because r1b-z2103 had clearly of near eastern origin, what also explains why yamna was much more west asian shifted than earlier steppe and forest steppe people. Like i wrote before finno-ugrian haplogroups are absent among indo-iranians and indo-iranian languages have even no finno-ugrian loanwords but uralic languages have many indo-iranian loanwords. R1b-z2103 would be much more present among strict patrilineal indo-iranians if it had anything to with the spread of indo-iranian languages. It is even not clear which language was actually spoken by them and the samara samples were all from a small region

[Graham]

Differences between the Corded Ware and present-day Europeans
We also studied differences between the Corded Ware and present-day Europeans using statistics of the form f4(European, Corded_Ware_LN; Other, Chimp), with Other chosen from the list: LBK_EN, Loschbour, Karelia_HG, Yamnaya.

These statistics are plotted in Fig. S7.11, and show that both the EHG and the Yamnaya share more alleles with the Corded Ware than with any present-day European population.

This is expected in the case of southern Europeans (as the Corded Ware horizon was a central/northern European phenomenon, and one might not expect present-day southern Europeans to form a clade with the Corded Ware population), but we find that it is also true for all present-day northern Europeans as well.

This suggests that the ancestry introduced into Europe from the steppe during the Late Neolithic was later diluted, a process that had already begun during the Late Neolithic period itself.

This dilution may have involved the pre-existing farming population of Europe, but in parts of Europe may have included populations with substantial hunter gatherer ancestry, as indicated by the fact that the statistic f4(European,Corded_Ware_LN;Loschbour, Chimp) is significantly positive for some European populations such as Lithuanians, Estonians, and Icelanders.



http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g156/irnbru293/1_zpsahrkhzus.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g156/irnbru293/2_zpsiia8ok4t.jpg

[curupira]

The 7000 years old Samara R1b1a was neolithic too!

There is a contradiction there then, since in the text I quoted they said he was a hunter gatherer.

[curupira]

Did you read what I posted? The 7000 years old Samara was R1b, upstream of R1b-M269, and it was found up there in the North, much earlier than Yamnaya. R1b was already there and it looks like a native lineage.


I0124 (Samara_HG)
The hunter-gatherer from Samara belonged to haplogroup R1b1 (L278:18914441C→T), with
upstream haplogroup R1b (M343:2887824C→A) also supported. However, he was ancestral for both
the downstream haplogroup R1b1a1 (M478:23444054T→C) and R1b1a2 (M269:22739367T→C) and
could be designated as R1b1*(xR1b1a1, R1b1a2). Thus, this individual was basal to most west
Eurasian R1b individuals which belong to the R-M269 lineage as well as to the related R-M73/M478
lineage that has a predominantly non-European distribution17. The occurrence of chromosomes basal
to the most prevalent lineages within haplogroups R1a and R1b in eastern European hunter-gatherers,
together with the finding of basal haplogroup R* in the ~24,000-year old Mal’ta (MA1) boy18
suggests the possibility that some of the differentiation of lineages within haplogroup R occurred in
north Eurasia, although we note that we do not have ancient DNA data from more southern regions of
Eurasia. Irrespective of the more ancient origins of this group of lineages, the occurrence of basal
forms of R1a and R1b in eastern European hunter-gatherers provide a geographically plausible source
for these lineages in later Europeans where both lineages are prevalent4,17,19


r1b-z2103 had clearly of near eastern origin, what also explains why yamna was much more west asian shifted than earlier steppe and forest steppe people. L

[Artek]

R1a1-M459 from Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia, Russia, Mesolithic. 5500 - 5000 BCE

R1a1a1-M417xZ282 from Corded Ware site at Esperstedt 2473 - 2348 cal BCE

R1a-Z280 from Late Bronze Age Germany, Halberstadt, Lusatian Culture. 1113 -1021 cal BCE

Corded Ware sample was negative for L664, Z645, Z647 and Z282. CTS4385 wasn't tested, unfortunately.

http://oi61.tinypic.com/208edye.jpg

[blogen]

this is of course bullshit. R1a was also found in the corded ware culture and there is no reason to assume that all yamna people were r1b-z2103.

What is the connection between the Corded Ware and the Yamna? Yes, the Corded Ware had a strong steppic cultural influence, but the Corded peoples dominantly were not connected to the steppic peoples. And we have mesolithic R1a sample from Karelia from 5500-5000 BCE without zero connection with any Indoeuropean peoples!

Basically the R1a is the Eastern European mesolith.


Actually this is very unlikely because r1b-z2103 had clearly of near eastern origin, what also explains why yamna was much more west asian shifted than earlier steppe and forest steppe people. Like i wrote before finno-ugrian haplogroups are absent among indo-iranians and indo-iranian languages have even no finno-ugrian loanwords but uralic languages have many indo-iranian loanwords.

Not true:

Hungarian méz, Mansi: mai̊ Uralic mete = honey = Sanskrit mádhu for example. But yes, the connection is weak.

[blogen]

There is a contradiction there then, since in the text I quoted they said he was a hunter gatherer.

The Eastern European neolithic started with the ceramic traditions.

[Graham]

Quick wee edit.. Bell Beaker & a few others.
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g156/irnbru293/3_zpsobokgimy.jpg (http://s55.photobucket.com/user/irnbru293/media/3_zpsobokgimy.jpg.html)
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g156/irnbru293/1_zpstg8qtcrz.jpg (http://s55.photobucket.com/user/irnbru293/media/1_zpstg8qtcrz.jpg.html)http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g156/irnbru293/2_zpsadfke1ge.jpg (http://s55.photobucket.com/user/irnbru293/media/2_zpsadfke1ge.jpg.html)

[curupira]

On page 20 of the study they identify the 7000 years old Samara sample as Holocene Hunter Gatherer. The Yamnaya is much earlier. After Holocene Hunter Gatherer, there is Early Neolithic, Mid Neolithic and then Copper Age. Yamnaya was identified as Copper Age. Hence R1b upstream of R1b-M269 was already there, from a much earlier time. This is very interesting IMO. The 7000 years old Samara hunter gatherer was R1b (the oldest to date), upstream of R1b-M269, and it was found up there in the North, much earlier than Yamnaya. R1b was already there and it looks like a native lineage. It is possible R1b and R1a emerged in the steppes. R in Siberia 24000 years ago already suggested a presence there. And so did the ANE component.


The Eastern European neolithic started with the ceramic traditions.

[Graham]

On the PCA, looks like Unetice people match up with the (east)central Europeans of today, easy.

[blogen]

On page 20 of the study they identify the 7000 years old Samara sample as Holocene Hunter Gatherer. The Yamnaya is much earlier. After Holocene Hunter Gatherer, there is Early Neolithic, Mid Neolithic and then Copper Age. Yamnaya was identified as Copper Age. Hence R1b upstream of R1b-M269 was already there, from a much earlier time. This is very interesting IMO. The 7000 years old Samara hunter gatherer was R1b (the oldest to date), upstream of R1b-M269, and it was found up there in the North, much earlier than Yamnaya. R1b was already there and it looks like a native lineage. It is possible R1b and R1a emerged in the steppes. R in Siberia 24000 years ago already suggested a presence there. And so did the ANE component.

pp23:


The individual we refer to as ‘Samara hunter-gatherer’
I0124/SVP44 (5640-5555 calBCE, Beta-392490)
is an adult male from grave 1 in a Neolithic-Eneolithic settlement producing artifacts from the Elshanka, Samara, and Repin cultures. The specific site is Lebyazhinka IV, on the Sok River, Samara oblast, Russia. (‘Neolithic’ here refers to the presence of ceramics, not to domesticated animals or plants.) The radiocarbon date of this individual, based on a femur, is centuries before the appearance of domesticated animals in the middle Volga region. Lebyazhinka IV and the neighboring Lebyazhinka V site were occupied seasonally by multiple cultures between 7000-3500 BCE; a few graves were found in the settled areas6.

Basically this was the story in the Volga valley: mesolithic - ceramic neolithic (mesolithic with ceramics) - eneolithic (copper age)

[curupira]

Check page 21.


Basically this was the story in the Volga valley: mesolithic - ceramic neolithic (mesolithic with ceramics) - eneolithic (copper age)

[blogen]

Check page 20.

Page 20: Population genetic analyses or Page 20 in the supplementary study: References

[Jackson]

On the PCA, looks like Unetice people match up with the (east)central Europeans of today, easy.

It's interesting that all the Unetice Y-DNA from this study is I2, one has the same group as the earlier SHG's, think it was I2c2.

NW Europeans look like Bell Beaker + Unetice & Corded Ware to a certain extent.

[curupira]

It is page 21, sorry. There is an interesting image there. Where I am now, I cannot download it.


Page 20: Population genetic analyses or Page 20 in the supplementary study: References

[blogen]

It is page 21, sorry. There is an interesting image there. Where I am now, I cannot download it.

Yes. But this theoretical division not existed in the Volga valley for example, where the eneolithic followed the ceramic neolithic since the neolitization of the mesolithic era was the arrival of the ceramics without plants and domesticated animals. And the classic neolithic package arrived with the early metal users.

[Hevo]

It's interesting that all the Unetice Y-DNA from this study is I2, one has the same group as the earlier SHG's, think it was I2c2.

NW Europeans look like Bell Beaker + Unetice & Corded Ware to a certain extent.

Norwegians have the most Yamna derived ancestry but i am not sure if that is accurate.

[Graham]

Norwegians have the most Yamna derived ancestry but i am not sure if that is accurate.

There's a quite a lot of missing populations in-between that could have more.

[Demhat]

Norwegians have the most Yamna derived ancestry but i am not sure if that is accurate.

From the list yes, but if you look at the fst DNA table on page 26 with Lezgins and Mordovians included. These two look the closest to Yamna.

[curupira]

The location of the R1a hunter gatherer (Karelia) and the up in the North position of the R1b hunter gatherer (Samara) again remind me of that famous book "the Arctic Home in the Vedas". Malta (the R1 Siberian carrier of 24000 years ago) already made me remember of it. Now it does again. I had downloaded the book, and I'll have a look at it again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arctic_Home_in_the_Vedas

One can download it here:

http://vedic-nation.com/media/research_activities/9_arctic_home_in_the_vedas.pdf

[Demhat]

Let's keep in mind the samples are all from a valley in Samarra and most likely related. I as many people are convinced that with more samples the yDNA of Yamna will become more diverse.

[Danishmend]

Tocharians were all R1a1a so people will just have to wait for the paper and more information on the Yamnaya genomes to come out. Prof Reich said R1a and R1b so unless he was making it up I'm sure he will explain his evidence in time. Anyway Uyghur people have R1b so it is not like it is not there.

Uyghurs are not Tocharians, nor are they genetically representatives of long lost Tocharians. They are Turkic and their language belongs to Qarluq-Chagatai branch of the Turkic family. You need to find your missed connections somewhere else unfortunately.

Back then when R1a was very popular many members claimed that R1a among Turkic peoples came from Turkicized Indo-Europeans. Ottoman dynasty (which belongs to Kayı tribe of the Oghuz btw) is R1a-Z93 (Asian subclade) for example, so they are most likely Turkicized Indo-Europeans!! Even the Kyrgyz and the Altai who have the highest levels of R1a were Turkicized Indo-Europeans according to many, as if R1a came into existence with the emergence of Indo-European speakers.

And now we are witnessing the rise of R1b. I think Bashkirs and Turkmens will be the next target, as R1b is quite common among them.


http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m102/Danishmend/1_zpsd2501096.png (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/Danishmend/media/1_zpsd2501096.png.html)



Ancient North Eurasian admixture in Uralic & Turkic populations come from assimilated Indo-Europeans too, even though IE-speaking European populations have less ANE than Turkic and Uralic speakers.
http://i.hizliresim.com/9VodNO.png (http://hizliresim.com/9VodNO)

[Jackson]

Let's keep in mind the samples are all from a valley in Samarra and most likely related. I as many people are convinced that with more samples the yDNA of Yamna will become more diverse.

I agree, although they stated specifically that these individuals weren't related i think. Although it's possible they were from the same tribe i would have thought.

I expect some R1a and some different types of R1b elsewhere in the zone, and i imagine some other lineages too.

[Harkonnen]

Ancient North Eurasian admixture in Uralic & Turkic populations come from assimilated Indo-Europeans too, even though IE-speaking European populations have less ANE than Turkic and Uralic speakers.
http://i.hizliresim.com/9VodNO.png (http://hizliresim.com/9VodNO)

Saamis by the way score well over 20% ANE.

They also share a lot of drift with Mal'ta, and manage to break Native American clean sweep

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2d760t5.jpg

I believe you can find quite close 20% ANE in East & North Finland (as well as higher ENA), that 17 is based on some kind of Finnish average.

By the way concerning the shared drift statistics in this study. I believe they made some sort of Finnish composite which evens out the differences in Finland, so that it isn't that close to anything. East Finns reduce the West Finnish similarity to WHG, and West Finns reduce East Finnish similarity to EHG, ANE etc.

[Demhat]

I agree, although they stated specifically that these individuals weren't related i think. Although it's possible they were from the same tribe i would have thought.

I expect some R1a and some different types of R1b elsewhere in the zone, and i imagine some other lineages too.


I expect more R1a some T(that one late neolithic sample looks very Yamna, almost as much as CW) and J2a (Somewhere the French like J2a in Bronze Age Hungary must have come from. And Yamna is a strong possibility considering the French are genetically very close to Yamna).

This is the list someone posted.


Acoording to the table on page 26, Yamnaya are closest to:

1-Mordovian 0.018
2-Lezgian/Russian 0.019
3- Czech/Belarusian/Estonian/Hungarian/Icelandic 0.020
4-Norwegian/English 0.021
5-Croatian/French/Lithuanian/Orcadian 0.022
6- Bulgarian 0.023
7- Greek/Turkish 0.026
8-Spanish 0.027
9- Sindhi/Bergamo 0.028
10- Armenian/Sicilian 0.030
11- Basque 0.034

And this is the comment the same person made.


Based on the data we have from West Eurasia K8, I think it would be fair to say that Iranians and Kurds would be placed between Lezgians and Turks.

Looking at the ANE scores of Kurds and Iranians something around the position from 3-5 in the table makes sense. Unfortunately no other North Caucasian populations werre among the tested.

[curupira]

A triangle with the oldest R*, R1a and R1b found so far (all from Russia):

R -> ~ 24000 years ago
R1a and R1b > ~ 7000 years ago

http://i60.tinypic.com/1j7mfm.gif

[Peterski]

It is disappointing that the Janisławice Culture and the Globular Amphora Culture were not covered by this study.

[Jackson]

Just to reiterate Chad's point on Eurogenes blog comment section - The R1b1 in Early Neolithic Iberia is 11 SNP's short of the L23 found in Yamnaya, and is ancestral to R1b-V88, found in west Africa.


So there can be no way that this lineage can be a more likely source of western European R1b-M269 than some of that found in Yamnaya, but in particularly that which is likely to be found further west in the zone.

[Black Wolf]

I find it odd. First of all, both Yamnaya and Corded Ware are expressions of same ethnic group with a huge cultural/racial overlap, as one would expect considering they were the first stage of breakup in Aryan ethnos.

Then, why would Basques or Spanish people have such a high incidence of R1b, if that came from Aryans? It's obvious that while Iberians were influenced by Aryans (via Kelts), it's also clear that element CANNOT be dominant in people such as Basques (Iberian speakers) or Spaniards (Romanized Iberians).

Also, I find it hard to believe that most of Western Europe ancestry is Aryan (as R1b would indicate). At every point in history, pre-Aryan elements have always been dominant in the mix that followed Keltic invasions (be it local CM or neolithic elements). Today this is even more apparent than it was in Antiquity: no more than 10% of Western Europeans are "Nordids".

Once again, DNA evidence proves worthless in determining people ancestries.

You lose pretty much all of your credibility when you are use the term ''Aryan''.

[Black Wolf]

No Y-DNA haplogroup J2 at all has shown up among any of the ancient samples from this study. The earliest evidence we have for it so far in Europe is from late bronze age Hungary. It really does look like a late entrant into most of Europe.

[Arch Hades]

No Y-DNA haplogroup J2 at all has shown up among any of the ancient samples from this study. The earliest evidence we have for it so far in Europe is from late bronze age Hungary. It really does look like a late entrant into most of Europe.

They need to test the prehistoric Aegean and Southern Balkans. as well as perhaps Southern Italy. IMO Then we'll find more J2, especially in the late Neolithic.

All the Neolithic samples we have are from Hungary/Germany/Spain/and Northern Italy....where J2 doesn't even exceed 10% the highest today.

I think the Early Neolithic is more G2 dominant, and central-West Mediterranean centered genetically...lacking Northern European like admixture. And we'll eventually find the late Neolithic to be more J2 dominant and East Mediterranean centered genetically..also lacking Northern European like admixture.

[Black Wolf]

They need to test the prehistoric Aegean and Southern Balkans. as well as perhaps Southern Italy. IMO Then we'll find more J2, especially in the late Neolithic.

Yes Southeastern Europe is promising for some Neolithic J2 I think. Once thing is very clear now though. If J2 was part of the very first Neolithic farming groups from the Near East then it certainly did not spread out as widely as G2a did.

[Peterski]

I'm confused about this paper - there are contradictory opinions about its credibility, for example here:

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=85&p=23613#p23613


David Reich and his associates have published a paper containing a lot of new genetic data from prehistoric Europe. These data utterly refute the Kurgan hypothesis, and yet Reich and his associates are so stupid that they actually think the data support the hypothesis.

[Äijä]

No Y-DNA haplogroup J2 at all has shown up among any of the ancient samples from this study. The earliest evidence we have for it so far in Europe is from late bronze age Hungary. It really does look like a late entrant into most of Europe.

Rare as N1c, most likely both ruling and exporting technology to the R folk.

[Black Wolf]

Rare as N1c, most likely both ruling and exporting technology to the R folk.

I think that both J2a and N1c are rather late entrants to Europe. J2a of course most likely came from the Southeast while N1c came from the Northeast.

[Äijä]

I think that both J2a and N1c are rather late entrants to Europe. J2a of course most likely came from the Southeast while N1c came from the Northeast.

N1c came from the Eurasian Steppe, J2a from the Caucasus. That works, they meet at Volga and exchange horses, cattle and carts. :D

[Black Wolf]

N1c came from the Eurasian Steppe, J2a from the Caucasus. That works, they meet at Volga and exchange horses, cattle and carts. :D

I think an origin for J2a anywhere from the Southern Caucasus to Eastern Iran is likely.

[Grace O'Malley]

Uyghurs are not Tocharians, nor are they genetically representatives of long lost Tocharians. They are Turkic and their language belongs to Qarluq-Chagatai branch of the Turkic family. You need to find your missed connections somewhere else unfortunately.

Back then when R1a was very popular many members claimed that R1a among Turkic peoples came from Turkicized Indo-Europeans. Ottoman dynasty (which belongs to Kayı tribe of the Oghuz btw) is R1a-Z93 (Asian subclade) for example, so they are most likely Turkicized Indo-Europeans!! Even the Kyrgyz and the Altai who have the highest levels of R1a were Turkicized Indo-Europeans according to many, as if R1a came into existence with the emergence of Indo-European speakers.

And now we are witnessing the rise of R1b. I think Bashkirs and Turkmens will be the next target, as R1b is quite common among them.


http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m102/Danishmend/1_zpsd2501096.png (http://s102.photobucket.com/user/Danishmend/media/1_zpsd2501096.png.html)


Ancient North Eurasian admixture in Uralic & Turkic populations come from assimilated Indo-Europeans too, even though IE-speaking European populations have less ANE than Turkic and Uralic speakers.
http://i.hizliresim.com/9VodNO.png (http://hizliresim.com/9VodNO)

I wasn't thinking about Tocharians but just using my results to show that there is some connection to the general area and that R1b whether these results in Yamna are not ancestral to Europeans is where the answer will eventually be found. These Yamna were R1b-M269 and a lot of people were saying that this area only had R1a. This is a huge find and it is exciting times.

[Grace O'Malley]

Just to reiterate Chad's point on Eurogenes blog comment section - The R1b1 in Early Neolithic Iberia is 11 SNP's short of the L23 found in Yamnaya, and is ancestral to R1b-V88, found in west Africa.


So there can be no way that this lineage can be a more likely source of western European R1b-M269 than some of that found in Yamnaya, but in particularly that which is likely to be found further west in the zone.

That's really interesting that the R1b in Iberia is ancestral to R1b-V88. Is there any other R1bs in Iberia like this or did it die out?

[blogen]

I'm confused about this paper - there are contradictory opinions about its credibility, for example here:

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=85&p=23613#p23613

This is what I wrote above!

[Harkonnen]

N1c came from the Eurasian Steppe, J2a from the Caucasus. That works, they meet at Volga and exchange horses, cattle and carts. :D

To me J in Volga (Mordvins etc) looks to be rather a Turkic signal. If not some sort of late Aryan. Tatars are absolutely stacked with J.

[glass]

David Reich and his associates have published a paper containing a lot of new genetic data from prehistoric Europe. These data utterly refute the Kurgan hypothesis, and yet Reich and his associates are so stupid that they actually think the data support the hypothesis.
There should be some aryan r1a in region, because corded ware and iranian/indian r1a should have a common place from where they come from. If Yamnaya fully r1b then there is hole in a middle of r1a territory. :rolleyes:

[Proto-Shaman]

There should be some aryan r1a in region, because corded ware and iranian/indian r1a should have a common place from where they come from. If Yamnaya fully r1b then there is hole in a middle of r1a territory. :rolleyes:
If you want to establish the Aryan conncection, then you have to take Bashkirs, Kyrgyzes and Tamils into consideration. Since the R1a basehaplotype 13 25 15 10 12 12 10 13 11 31 -- 15 14 20 12 16 11 23 (with a common ancestor of 3400+/-505 ybp, the likely times for the Aryans coming to India) is reasonably close to the Bashkir and Kyrgyz base haplotypes (both R1a-L342.2). A common ancestor of all the reported Indian (Tamil) haplotypes and Bashkir and Kyrgyz haplotypes lived around 5000 ybp, which fits the timespan to R1a-L342.2 common ancestor.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-12/1356088114

[Proto-Shaman]

That's really interesting that the R1b in Iberia is ancestral to R1b-V88. Is there any other R1bs in Iberia like this or did it die out?

R1b went South through the Caucasus to Mesopotamia and the Middle East around 6000 - 5000 ybp; established the Sumer civilization; went westward via Egypt to the Atlantic, and across the Gibraltar Strait to the Pyrenees. On their way some R1b-V88 bearers split; went deep into Africa, and currently populate Cameroon and Chad in appreciable amounts. … To sum up the preceding section, the Arbins were entering Europe from the east by several routes: from the Russian Plain (between the Pontic Steppes and the Baltic Sea); from Asia Minor and the Middle East; and after a long way around Mediterranean Sea to Iberia, up north to the European continent. ... it is worth mention of one more rather vague evidence of the R1b journey via ancient Egypt between 5500 and 5200 ybp. It concerns the alleged R1b haplotype of Pharaoh Tutankhamun.

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=19567

[curupira]

Interestingly they tested the maled buried in Kutuluk cemetery. On page 333, figure 13.8, of David Anthony's book "The Horse the Wheel and Language" there is a picture of him. I remember looking at the pic when I read the book and wishing he would finally get tested.

This is what David Anthony said about him:


Elite status was maked by artifacts as well as architecture, and the most widespread indication of status was the presence of metal grave goods. The largest metal artifact found in any Yamnaya grave was laid on the left arm of a male buried in Kutuluk cemetery I, kurgan 4, overlooking the Kinel River, a tributary of the Samara River in the Samara oblast east of the Volga (figure 13.8). A solid copper club mace weighing 750 gm, it was 48.7 cm long and more than 1cm thick, with a diamond cross-section. The kurgan was medium-sized, 21 m in diameter and less than 1 m high, but the central grave pit (gr. 1) was large. The male was oriented east, position supine with raised knees, with ochre at his head, hips, and feet - a classic early Yamnaya grave type.

The R1b-M269-L23+ male (he is R1b-M269-L23+ just like the very vast majority of Western European, who are also R1b-M269-L23+ males), a pic of him:

http://i61.tinypic.com/1zcpteb.png

[Proto-Shaman]

Interestingly they tested the maled buried in Kutuluk cemetery. On page 333, figure 13.8, of David Anthony's book "The Horse the Wheel and Language" there is a picture of him. I remember looking at the pic when I read the book and wishing he would finally get tested.

This is what David Anthony said about him:



The R1b-M269-L23+ male (he is R1b-M269-L23+ just like the very vast majority of Western European R1b-M269-L23+ males), a pic of him:

http://i61.tinypic.com/1zcpteb.png
The idea that the R1b1a2a1-L51 speakers of Germanic and Italo-Celtic languages could have been derived from the R1b1a2a-L23 minority among the Yamna people doesn't work, because of the timing of the splits in the R1b tree. R1b1a2a2-Z2103 split from its brother clade R1b1a2a1-L51 8,000 years ago, which is around 3,000 years before the time of the Yamna samples. While the TMRCA (time to most recent common ancestor) for R1b-Z2103 is 7,400–5,600 years, the TMRCA for R1b-L51 is 7,600–5,900 years, so R1b-L51 is older than R1b-Z2103. R1b-L51 existed at the same time that the eastern R1b-Z2103 existed, in some other part of Europe. And of course that other part of Europe was Western Europe. There's no doubt that R1b-L51 originated in Western Europe, because the highest frequencies of the R1b-L51* paragroup are found in France and Ireland, whereas paragroup L23* (R1b1a2a*) is found among Bashkirs, Kazakhs, Chuvashs, Chechens, Caucasian Avars and western Anatolians:

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/1948/l23x412.jpg

[curupira]

The idea that the R1b1a2a1-L51 speakers of Germanic and Italo-Celtic languages could have been derived from the R1b1a2a-L23 minority among the Yamna people doesn't work, because of the timing of the splits in the R1b tree. R1b1a2a2-Z2103 split from its brother clade R1b1a2a1-L51 8,000 years ago, which is around 3,000 years before the time of the Yamna samples.

The timeframe fits perfectly well. So much so that the title of the study is "massive migration from the steppe is a source of Indo European languages in Europe". Did you even read the study? R1b was found in a hunter gatherer from Samara, much earlier than Yamnaya ( ~7550 kya ago). How many times do I need to repeat that? It was already there, much earlier than Yamnaya, at what the study calls Holocene. On page 21 of the study they identify the old Samara sample as Holocene Hunter Gatherer. The Yamnaya came much later. After Holocene Hunter Gatherer, there is Early Neolithic, Mid Neolithic and then Copper Age. Yamnaya was identified as Copper Age. Hence R1b upstream of R1b-M269 was already there, from a much earlier time. This is indeed very interesting IMO. R1b was there on the Pontic Caspian region. The R1b old sample from Samara was the one which carried the most EHG material. So it is unlikely that the Neolithic push in Yamnaya was brought by R1b.

On the other hand, both the R1b found in Yamnaya and the one which expanded quickly - along with the spread of IE languages and the autosomal Yamnaya like (steppe genetic material) - in Western Europe are not only R1b, but R1b-M269 and belonging to the same clade L23+. This is no coincidence! It is a definite proof, beyong doubt, R1b-M269 is associated with the homeland of the Indo Europeans. We already knew R1a was. Now we have the proof R1b-M269 is. I already knew it many years ago, as my posting history on biodiversity and other forums shows.

This is what I had said on Anthrogenica last year (in October):


I expect confirmation of IE-R1b links pretty soon. I'd like to see the Samara and Yamnaya results. And also a confirmation of the R1b found at Afanasievo.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3169-Last-Predictions-Go!&p=68571#post68571

Many other people had foreseen it too, as soon as the timeframe of R1b-M269 was revealed. The quick expansion of R1b-M269 in Western Europe fits with the quick expansion of the IE languages there. As well as the utter domination of both in Western Europe. So far, the most likely scenario is that R1b-M269 and the R1a clades (Z93+ and Z283+, f.e) were indeed involved in the IE ethnogenesis evolved in the steppes. It looks like they were hunter gatherer lineages present there from early on.

[Peterski]

Tocharians were R1a, but they were not Z93 (instead, they were European R1a) - check:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15

And this is from the comments section (about Tocharians from Xiaohe and their R1a):


Hui Zhou (2014-07-18 16:14) Jilin University

Archaeological and anthropological investigations have helped to formulate two main theories to account for the origin of the populations in the Tarim Basin. The first, so-called “steppe hypothesis”, maintains that the earliest settlers may have been nomadic herders of the Afanasievo culture (ca. 3300-2000 B.C.), a primarily pastoralist culture distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions of the steppe north of the Tarim Basin. The second model, known as the “Bactrian oasis hypothesis”, it maintains that the first settlers were farmers of the Oxus civilization (ca. 2200-1500 B.C.) west of Xinjiang in Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, and Turkmenistan. These contrasting models can be tested using DNA recovered from archaeological bones. Xiaohe cemetery contains the oldest and best-preserved mummies so far discovered in the Tarim Basin, possible those of the earliest people to settle the region. Genetic analysis of these mummies can provide data to elucidate the affinities of the earliest inhabitants.

Our results show that Xiaohe settlers carried Hg R1a1 in paternal lineages, and Hgs H, K, C4, M*in maternal lineages. Though Hg R1a1a is found at highest frequency in both Europe and South Asia, Xiaohe R1a1a more likely originate from Europe because of it not belonging to R1a1a-Z93 branch (our recently unpublished data) which is mainly found in Asians. mtDNA Hgs H, K, C4 primarily distributed in northern Eurasians. Though H, K, C4 also presence in modern south Asian, they immigrated into South Asian recently from nearby populations, such as Near East , East Asia and Central Asia, and the frequency is obviously lower than that of northern Eurasian. Furthermore, all of the shared sequences of the Xiaohe haplotypes H and C4 were distributed in northern Eurasians. Haplotype 223-304 in Xiaohe people was shared by Indian. However, these sequences were attributed to HgM25 in India, and in our study it was not HgM25 by scanning the mtDNA code region. Therefore, our DNA results didn't supported Clyde Winters’s opinion but supported the “steppe hypothesis”. Moreover, the culture of Xiaohe is similar with the Afanasievo culture. Afanasievo culture was mainly distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions, and didn’t spread into India. This further maintains the “steppe hypothesis”.

In addition, our data was misunderstand by Clyde Winters. Firstly, the human remains of the Xiaohe site have no relation with the Loulan mummy. The Xiaohe site and Loulan site are two different archaeological sites with 175km distances. Xiaohe site, radiocarbon dated ranging from 4000 to 3500 years before present, was a Bronze Age site, and Loulan site, dated to about 2000 years before present. Secondly, Hgs H and K are the mtDNA haplogroups not the Y chromosome haplogroups in our study. Thirdly, the origin of Xiaohe people in here means tracing the most recently common ancestor, and Africans were remote ancestor of modern people.

[Proto-Shaman]

The timeframe fits perfectly well. So much so that the title of the study is "massive migration from the steppe is a source of Indo European languages in Europe". Did you even read the study? R1b was found in a hunter gatherer from Samara, much earlier than Yamnaya ( ~7550 kya ago). How many times do I need to repeat that? It was already there, much earlier than Yamnaya, at what the study calls Holocene. On page 21 of the study they identify the old Samara sample as Holocene Hunter Gatherer. The Yamnaya came much later. After Holocene Hunter Gatherer, there is Early Neolithic, Mid Neolithic and then Copper Age. Yamnaya was identified as Copper Age. Hence R1b upstream of R1b-M269 was already there, from a much earlier time. This is indeed very interesting IMO. R1b was there on the Pontic Caspian region. The R1b old sample from Samara was the one which carried the most EHG material. So it is unlikely that the Neolithic push in Yamnaya was brought by R1b.

On the other hand, both the R1b found in Yamnaya and the one which expanded quickly - along with the spread of IE languages and the autosomal Yamnaya like (steppe genetic material) - in Western Europe are not only R1b, but R1b-M269 and belonging to the same clade L23+. This is no coincidence! It is a definite proof, beyong doubt, R1b-M269 is associated with the homeland of the Indo Europeans. We already knew R1a was. Now we have the proof R1b-M269 is. I already knew it many years ago, as my posting history on biodiversity and other forums shows.

This is what I had said on Anthrogenica last year (in October):


http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3169-Last-Predictions-Go!&p=68571#post68571

Many other people had foreseen it too, as soon as the timeframe of R1b-M269 was revealed. The quick expansion of R1b-M269 in Western Europe fits with the quick expansion of the IE languages there. As well as the utter domination of both in Western Europe. So far, the most likely scenario is that R1b-M269 and the R1a clades were indeed involved in the IE ethnogenesis evolved in the steppes. It looks like they were hunter gatherer lineages present there from early on.
(Z93+ and Z283+, f.e)
Just because R1b-L51 existed at the same time that the eastern R1b-Z2103 existed, in some other part of Europe, it doesn't mean a fitting timeframe. The results clearly show us that four huge branches of the Indo-European language family, the Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Germanic and Italo-Celtic branches, were not derived from the people of the Yamna culture. The Kurgan hypothesis is dead, the whole Indo-European business is simply dead for now.

[Äijä]

Just because R1b-L51 existed at the same time that the eastern R1b-Z2103 existed, in some other part of Europe, it doesn't mean a fitting timeframe. The results clearly show us that four huge branches of the Indo-European language family, the Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Germanic and Italo-Celtic branches, were not derived from the people of the Yamna culture. The Kurgan hypothesis is dead, the whole Indo-European business is simply dead for now.

The genetic trail is a mess right now, the linguistic evidence still support the Kurgan theory as a location for the IE spread.

[Peterski]

Check also (about Tocharians):

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/tokol-0-X.html

http://www.oxuscom.com/eyawtkat.htm

[Proto-Shaman]

The genetic trail is a mess right now, the linguistic evidence still support the Kurgan theory as a location for the IE spread.
Yes, and thats the main problem we are dealing with, the linguistic field of the Indo-European research.

[Äijä]

Yes, and thats the main problem we are dealing with, the linguistic field of the Indo-European research.

The Uralics where in the same place at the same time, you cant separate them.

You can try to expand the IE area of spread at the time but that is not how languages work usually, they start to change very fast when they move.

[curupira]

The title of the study says it all: "massive migration from the steppe is a source of Indo European languages". They detected on the autosomal level a large chunk of Yamnaya like (from the steppe) genetic contribution. We already knew from archeological remains there was a migration from East to West fitting with the expansion of IE languages. Read "The Kurgan culture and the Indo Europeanization of Europe" by Gimbutas, "The Horse the Wheel and Languages" by David Anthony and "In Search of the Indo Europeans" by Mallory. The yDNA is not the only reason. But still, they are closely connected. The very vast majority of Western European IE speaking males carry not only R1b-M269 but also the L-23+ mutation which those in Yamnaya did (not to mention one in Yamnaya carried just L-23*). The L51+ probably had already departed. Anyway, the sample was small, but it definitely shows R1b-M269-L23+ at a classic Indo European site back in the steppe. Again, the autosomal reinforces or independently proves my point anyway.


Just because R1b-L51 existed at the same time that the eastern R1b-Z2103 existed, in some other part of Europe,.

[Peterski]

It is considered that during the mid-Neolithic in Europe there was a huge population decline most likely caused by infectious diseases contracted by farmers from domestic animals. According to Shennan 2009, "Evolutionary Demography and the Population History of the European Early Neolithic", in the 5th millenium BC there was a dramatic fall in the population level which remained low for nearly a millenium (so until this massive immigration from the steppe - it seems). That was probably something like the Medieval Black Death, maybe more devastating.

[Proto-Shaman]

The title of the study says it all: "massive migration from the steppe is a source of Indo European languages". They detected on the autosomal level a large chunk of Yamnaya like (from the steppe) genetic contribution. We already knew from archeological remains there was a migration from East to West fitting with the expansion of IE languages. Read "The Kurgan culture and the Indo Europeanisation of Europe" by Gimbutas, "The Horse the Wheel and Languages" by David Anthony and "In Search of the Indo Europeans" by Mallory. The yDNA is not the the reason. But still, they are closely connected. The very vast majority of Western European IE speaking males carry not only R1b-M269 but also the L-23+ mutation which those in Yamnaya did (not to mention one in Yamnaya carried just L-23*). The L51+ probably had already departed. Anyway, the sample was small, but it definitely shows R1b-M269-L23+ at a classic Indo European site back in the steppe. Again, the autosomal reinforces or independently proves my point anyway.
Read again my posts at page 3 and 6:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?159505-Reich-Yamnaya-brought-R1b-to-Europe&p=3385051#post3385051
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?159505-Reich-Yamnaya-brought-R1b-to-Europe&p=3386781#post3386781

[aherne]

Interestingly they tested the maled buried in Kutuluk cemetery. On page 333, figure 13.8, of David Anthony's book "The Horse the Wheel and Language" there is a picture of him. I remember looking at the pic when I read the book and wishing he would finally get tested.

This is what David Anthony said about him:



The R1b-M269-L23+ male (he is R1b-M269-L23+ just like the very vast majority of Western European R1b-M269-L23+ males), a pic of him:

http://i61.tinypic.com/1zcpteb.png

Skeleton is textbook rugged "Nordid", as one would expect considering his ancestry. However, at such remote times people of manifest Aryan type (Corded/Steppe) were a minority compared to CMs. In Tocharian mummies, one can still have a live image of original varieties incl. hair pigmentation which of course ranged from golden to brown, but we must consider two things: Tocharians were not pure Aryans (their language looks influenced by an Uralic tongue once spoken in Central Asia before Aryans came) and being one thousand years older, "Nordid" was already becoming majority element. In fact, the phenomenon of "Nordification" in Aryan peoples ended only in 1st millennium BC (older CMs developing more and more "Nordid" traits), long after descendants could no longer communicate in same tongue.

[blogen]

Skeleton is textbook rugged "Nordid"

From the 10-15 pixel of the picture? :laugh:

Pls. Only one thing is visible in this picture: a skeleton. :)

Anyway, the Nordid type not existed between the steppe peoples, so your whole speculation is bullshit.

[Jackson]

That's really interesting that the R1b in Iberia is ancestral to R1b-V88. Is there any other R1bs in Iberia like this or did it die out?

I think somebody mentioned there are a handful of modern individuals in Iberia with very basal forms of R1b1, so perhaps they are descendants of this man or others like him.

[Peterski]

From the new paper, about this individual in Els Trocs, north-eastern Spain (pretty close to the Basques):


(...) I0410 (Spain_EN):

We determined that this individual belonged to haplogroup R1b1 (...) The occurrence of a basal form of haplogroup R1b1 in both western Europe and R1b1a in eastern Europe (I0124 hunter-gatherer from Samara) complicates the interpretation of the origin of this lineage. (...)

[Skerdilaid]

From the new paper, about this individual in Els Trocs, north-eastern Spain (pretty close to the Basques):

Can you link me to this paper? I have not gone through all the pages and I apologize in advance if you have posted the paper already.

[Insuperable]

I'm confused about this paper - there are contradictory opinions about its credibility, for example here:

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=85&p=23613#p23613

LooooooooL. This professor put a smile on my face. Very collegial, LMAO.

[Peterski]

Can you link me to this paper?

Here (page 76 out of 172): http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

[Danishmend]

From the 10-15 pixel of the picture? :laugh:

Pls. Only one thing is visible in this picture: a skeleton. :)

Anyway, the Nordid type not existed between the steppe peoples, so your whole speculation is bullshit.

I agree. The speculation of Indo-European steppe peoples being Nordids doesn't sound realistic now. Yamnaya was a mixture between Ancient Karelian Hunter Gatherer (mostly ANE) + Near Eastern like populations according to the latest studies. They must have resembled North Caucasian Lezgins and Tabassarans.

Tabassaran:
55% Near East
28% ANE
11% WHG

[Highlands]

I agree. The speculation of Indo-European steppe peoples being Nordids doesn't sound realistic now. Yamnaya was a mixture between Ancient Karelian Hunter Gatherer (mostly ANE) + Near Eastern like populations according to the latest studies. They must have resembled North Caucasian Lezgins and Tabassarans.

Tabassaran:
55% Near East
28% ANE
11% WHG

I have said the same thing (north caucasus-affinity of indo-europeans) before we knew of ANE component, but no one believed it.

[Peterski]

I've found a reconstruction by Gerasimov of that Mesolithic R1a male from Karelia:

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_04.jpg

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_03.jpg

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_02.jpg

And also here is the distance between those early Karelia R1a and Samara R1b:

http://tjpeiffer.com/crowflies.html

http://s4.postimg.org/t5sd42jyl/R1b_R1a.png

[Hevo]

I've found a reconstruction by Gerasimov of that Mesolithic R1a male from Karelia:

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_04.jpg

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_03.jpg

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_02.jpg

And also here is the distance between those early Karelia R1a and Samara R1b:

http://tjpeiffer.com/crowflies.html

http://s4.postimg.org/t5sd42jyl/R1b_R1a.png

The distance is big but the genetic similarity between the R1b&R1a Eastern Hunter Gatherers is also big.:)

[curupira]

You did not post the whole text. The R1b found in Spain is a very basal one. It is not the ancestor of the vast majority of the ones which are found in Western Europe today (and the researchers reported it, but you did not post it; anyone reading the study can locate the page and read the whole text by himself). The vast majority of Western European R1b is R1b+M269+L23+, just like the ones found in Yamnaya, not to mention the upstream R1b-P297+ which lived two thousand years before the also in Samara.

Western European hunter gatherers and Neolithic people lacked IE languages, Kurgan burials, R1b-M269+ and the autosomal ANE. It is not difficult to see why they concluded a "massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe".


From the new paper, about this individual in Els Trocs, north-eastern Spain (pretty close to the Basques):

[War Chef]

I agree. The speculation of Indo-European steppe peoples being Nordids doesn't sound realistic now. Yamnaya was a mixture between Ancient Karelian Hunter Gatherer (mostly ANE) + Near Eastern like populations according to the latest studies. They must have resembled North Caucasian Lezgins and Tabassarans.

Tabassaran:
55% Near East
28% ANE
11% WHG

Ancient Karelian + Near Eastern still equals out to most modern Europeans. Yamna cluster just east of modern Finns, who have a lot of farmer ancestry too.

[Jackson]

Jesus, one hell of a browridge.

[blogen]

Jesus, one hell of a browridge.

The paleolithic and mesolithic cromagnoids had very archaic, sometimes almost veddoid like character. Especially in Eastern Europe. The last reamains of these archaic Cromagnoids lived in the Samara culture once.

[Herr Abubu]

I have said the same thing (north caucasus-affinity of indo-europeans) before we knew of ANE component, but no one believed it.

Nah, I pointed out how Bronze Age and Iron Age West-Central Asians (early IEs, Scythians), were more similar to Southeast Europeans and West Asians than Northern Europeans already. The rest had also been also pretty obvious and extrapolated from linguistic evidence.

[curupira]

The paleolithic and mesolithic cromagnoids had very archaic, sometimes almost veddoid like character. Especially in Eastern Europe. The last reamains of these archaic Cromagnoids lived in the Samara culture once.

Do you remember Kostenki, the 36000 years old Russian?
http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/2014/11/european-genetic-identity-may-stretch-back-36000-years

http://news.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/sn-bust.jpg

[Danishmend]

Ancient Karelian + Near Eastern still equals out to most modern Europeans.
No. Ancient Karelian Hunter Gatherers (EHG) had more ANE than WHG.

[blogen]

Do you remember Kostenki, the 36000 years old Russian?
http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/2014/11/european-genetic-identity-may-stretch-back-36000-years

Yes, they were these archaic Cromagnoids. But what Russian?

[Peterski]

And soon we will probably have Y-DNA from Bronze Age Poland! Dr Monika Abreu-Głowacka is extracting DNA from this guy:

http://www.naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnosci/news,403555,twarza-w-twarz-z-wojownikiem-sprzed-kilku-tysiecy-lat.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2015-01-01T00:00:00%2B02:00&updated-max=2016-01-01T00:00:00%2B02:00&max-results=21

They found a Bronze Age warrior in Rogalin near Hrubieszow. Here is facial reconstruction:

http://www.naukawpolsce.pap.pl/Data/Thumbs/_plugins/information/403555/MTAyNHg3Njg,18452321_18452245.JPG

http://www.naukawpolsce.pap.pl/Data/Thumbs/_plugins/information/403555/MTAyNHg3Njg,18452321_18452249.jpg

http://www.naukawpolsce.pap.pl/Data/Thumbs/_plugins/information/403555/MTAyNHg3Njg,18452321_18452252.jpg

http://www.naukawpolsce.pap.pl/Data/Thumbs/_plugins/information/403555/MTAyNHg3Njg,18452321_18452250.JPG

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BztVmHCajGk/VMAApOI-haI/AAAAAAAAJ4U/wGUx6uCIP98/s1600/54beb3108f37f_p.jpg

[Jackson]

Wasn't he R1a1? I think there was a leak of some information, can't remember, maybe it was another one.

[Peterski]

Maybe, maybe. I don't know anything about this so far. But I hope soon it will be released. :)

[Peterski]

OK, I found more info about this project. DNA results will be published in April.

Artek has started a thread about this:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?156613-DNA-and-facial-reconstruction-of-post-Corded-Ware-Strzy%C5%BC%C3%B3w-Culture-PRELIMINARY-results

[aherne]

I've found a reconstruction by Gerasimov of that Mesolithic R1a male from Karelia:

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_04.jpg

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_03.jpg

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_02.jpg

And also here is the distance between those early Karelia R1a and Samara R1b:

http://tjpeiffer.com/crowflies.html

http://s4.postimg.org/t5sd42jyl/R1b_R1a.png

This guy's hyper-angular features and almost Neanderthal tendencies are a start point towards "Nordid". He's completely un-Uralic...

[Harkonnen]

This guy's hyper-angular features and almost Neanderthal tendencies are a start point towards "Nordid". He's completely un-Uralic...

Is that so. What about his brother?

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_05.jpg


M.M. Gerasimov reconstructed the appearance of several people buried on OleniyIsland. In his opinion, their physical type resulted from the admixture between Cro-Magnon-like Europeans and Mongoloids who had migrated to northeastern Europe from Siberia. Those people may have been remote ancestors of modern Saami (Lapps).

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/en/temporary_exhibitions/virtual/gerasimov/10/24/


:eek:

By the way we were discussing this: Soon they will start to reconstruct the reconstructions. You wait and see brothers!

[Ibericus]

No. Ancient Karelian Hunter Gatherers (EHG) had more ANE than WHG.
They are 38-40% ANE + 62% WHG

[Danishmend]

They are 38-40% ANE + 62% WHG

Source?

Quote from Davidski's blog:
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.tr/2014/10/pie-homeland-update-paleogenomics.html?m=1
Razib also tweeted a few times from the talk, and as far as I can tell, his main point was that the Yamnaya samples showed affinity to the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) proxy Mal'ta boy, but were also partly of Near Eastern origin

[Ibericus]

Source?

Quote from Davidski's blog:
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.tr/2014/10/pie-homeland-update-paleogenomics.html?m=1
It's from the study of Haack, page 85 , it says :

" All three of these 2-way mixture models arrive at a similar inference of 38-40% ANE and 60-
62% WHG ancestry in Karelia-HG,"

[Danishmend]

Then why is Yamnaya closer to ANE than to WHG?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CuyvqGGHnqQ/VNxUuaBsnYI/AAAAAAAAJ7Y/ZJLiJXASI_U/s1600/2.jpg

[Jackson]

That PCA is a pretty good one, with an 'eastern edge' now created it looks a lot more complete.

[Ibericus]

Then why is Yamnaya closer to ANE than to WHG?
Are you talking about EHG or Yamanaya ? Because they are not the same thing.

[Arch Hades]

Then why is Yamnaya closer to ANE than to WHG?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CuyvqGGHnqQ/VNxUuaBsnYI/AAAAAAAAJ7Y/ZJLiJXASI_U/s1600/2.jpg

What's all the grey dots supposed to be?

[Ibericus]

What's all the grey dots supposed to be?
They are modern west-eurasians.

[Arch Hades]

They are modern west-eurasians.

And yet no specifics about which ones are which population, useless.

[Ibericus]

And yet no specifics about which ones are which population, useless.
http://oi62.tinypic.com/241v2vo.jpg

[Insuperable]

Poor hunter-gatherers.

[Arch Hades]

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2267/g0zb.png

This must be from a different study, doesnt include Yamna, Corded Ware, Eastern Hunter Gatherers, etc.

[Ibericus]

This must be from a different study, doesnt include Yamna, Corded Ware, Eastern Hunter Gatherers, etc.
Yes they are almost the same, now here is the one from the actual study :

http://oi62.tinypic.com/241v2vo.jpg

[Peterski]

Valtaves wrote on page 23 (post #229):


What about his brother?

I don't think that they were brothers.

They just lived close to each other (but the one you posted was rather of N1c1 haplogroup):

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/en/temporary_exhibitions/virtual/gerasimov/10/


Skeletons from YuzhnyOleniyIsland were studied by many anthropologists (the most detailed examination was undertaken by V.P. Yakimov). Stature was rather high for that time – about 173 cm in males. While most people were Caucasoids, some display Mongoloid characteristics – flat faces and rather flat noses.

Most people who lived in Karelia at that time, were Caucasoids (like the one I posted).

The one you posted looks Lapponoid. Perhaps he was N1c1 and spoke Uralic.

[Peterski]

Fig. 2: Distribution of mitochondrial lineages in the Altai region.
Green: lineages today mainly found in modern Europe; blue: lineages today mainly found in modern East Asia:

http://www.uni-mainz.de/FB/Biologie/Anthropologie/MolA/Illustrationen/CentralAsiaPieChartsWeb.png

http://www.uni-mainz.de/FB/Biologie/Anthropologie/MolA/Illustrationen/CentralAsiaPieChartsWeb.png

From: http://www.uni-mainz.de/FB/Biologie/Anthropologie/MolA/English/Research/CentralAsia.html


(2) Sub-project “Steppe Nomads” (Martina Unterländer)

This study addresses the population dynamics in the Eurasian steppe during the Iron Age. It is carried out in collaboration with H. Parzinger (Director Preußischer Kulturbesitz), A. Nagler (German Archaeological Institute, Berlin), Z. Samachev (Margulan Institut für Archäologie, Akademie der Wissenschaft Kazakhstan, Almaty) and V.I. Molodin (Sibirisches Institut für Archäologie und Ethnographie, Akademgorodok, Russia). Beginning with the 9th century BC, there is evidence for clans of horse nomads from the Altai in the East to as far as North of the Black Sea. Because of the astounding uniformity of their material culture, life style and death rituals, they are often summarised under the term Scythians. The name ‘Scythian’ derives from a people mentioned in Herodotus’ Histories that populated the area north of the Black Sea in the 7th century BC. Their only material legacy is found in the form of kurgans, the impressive burial mounds of the Scythian elite. The earliest archaeological evidence of this culture stems from the region of Tuva, with the kurgan Arzan 1 dating to the 9th century BC. Until the 2nd century BC there are a number of populations in the area of the Eurasian steppe belt which can be assigned to that Scythian culture.

Together with our partners, we want to answer whether the obvious cultural homogeneity of these groups points to a common origin or rather to the phenomenon of acculturation. The intention is to understand the ethnogenesis and the population historical connections of these groups called Scythians.

Our data show highly diverse maternal lineages whose composition changes over time within the different populations. At the outset of the 1st century BC the examined populations of the Altai region show a relatively high number of lineages which today are found predominantly in Europe. Over time a change takes place which is reflected in an increased number of maternal lineages predominantly found today in East Asia.

[Danishmend]

It's from the study of Haack, page 85 , it says :

" All three of these 2-way mixture models arrive at a similar inference of 38-40% ANE and 60-
62% WHG ancestry in Karelia-HG,"
You were right.
http://i.hizliresim.com/oA7mNX.png (http://hizliresim.com/oA7mNX)

Yamnaya=Karelian HG + Armenian like population

Armenians=15% ANE + ~80%Near East + 5% minor components
Karelian HG=40% ANE + 60%WHG

Which makes Yamnaya something like=27-28%ANE + 30-31%WHG + ~40%Near East + 1-3%something

[Peterski]

"Armenian like" means similar to modern ethnic Armenians ???

BTW - from which publication is this page above (http://i.hizliresim.com/oA7mNX.png)?

[Peterski]

Was that R1b Samara hunter-gatherer from years ca. 5640 - 5555 BCE (individual I0124/SVP44) also Armenian-like ???

Or only later Yamnaya R1b individuals from Samara from the Late Copper/Early Bronze Age were Armenian-like ???

[Jackson]

Was that R1b Samara hunter-gatherer from years ca. 5640 - 5555 BCE (individual I0124/SVP44) also Armenian-like ???

Nope, was very similar genetically to the other EHG, the R1a one from Karelia. This suggests that R1b was in the steppe during the Mesolithic, as the hunter-gatherer was unadmixed EHG. Of course that doesn't mean R1b couldn't have been elsewhere as well.

[Peterski]

So who brought that Armenian-like admixture to the steppe?

Someone from the south or from the east I guess (and they were probably not R1b).

[Danishmend]

"Armenian like" means similar to modern ethnic Armenians ???

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.tr/2014/10/pie-homeland-update-paleogenomics.html?m=1
"Yamnaya samples showed affinity to the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) proxy Mal'ta boy, but were also partly of Near Eastern origin, and indeed could be modeled as a 50/50 mixture between present-day Armenians and ancient Karelian hunter-gatherers."



BTW - from which publication is this page above (http://i.hizliresim.com/oA7mNX.png)?
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

page 116-117

[Peterski]

Yamnaya=Karelian HG + Armenian like population

Armenians=15% ANE + ~80%Near East + 5% minor components
Karelian HG=40% ANE + 60%WHG

So both Karelian HG and Samara HG were ~40% ANE and 60% WHG, despite Karelians being (perhaps) mostly R1a and Samarans (perhaps) mostly R1b ??? Both were EHG, basically. Hmmm. In such case what haplogroup could be those "Armenians"? Did they come from the Near East?