Which is higher: Norman in Sicily, Slavic in Greece, or British in Jamaicans?

[Sikeliot]

Rank from most to least, genetically.

Slavic genes in Greece
Norman genes in Sicily
British genes in Jamaicans

[Sikeliot]

bump

[Ianus]

https://mkoz.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/funny-monkey-2.jpg

[Sikeliot]

I am actually curious.

[SupaThug]

5th option

[alfieb]

https://mkoz.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/funny-monkey-2.jpg

Actual photo of Sicilian facepalm.

[Sikeliot]

I think if anything people might underestimate what I see as the British genetic influence in Jamaica. I think Jamaicans are usually 80% SSA right?

[alfieb]

I think if anything people might underestimate what I see as the British genetic influence in Jamaica. I think Jamaicans are usually 80% SSA right?

More.

[Sikeliot]

More.

Hmm. I didn't know that. I thought they were similar in admixture to African Americans, and that Haitians were the ones with higher SSA.

[Hithaeglir]

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/178/973/fuck-this.shit-im-out.gif

[alfieb]

Hmm. I didn't know that. I thought they were similar in admixture to African Americans, and that Haitians were the ones with higher SSA.

"European genetic ancestry ranged from 6.8% (Jamaica) to 22.5% (New Orleans)"
Parra et. al.
Estimating African American Admixture Proportions by Use of Population-Specific Alleles

[Sikeliot]

"European genetic ancestry ranged from 6.8% (Jamaica) to 22.5% (New Orleans)"
Parra et. al.
Estimating African American Admixture Proportions by Use of Population-Specific Alleles

If we take 7% North Euro in Sicily, as in Messina, to be the "native" amount and 10-15% to be the "Norman influenced" amount, then I'd go with:

Slavic in Greece > Norman in Sicily > British in Jamaica.

[Kabul]

Greeks have quite a bit of Slavic blood by now IMO.

[Sikeliot]

I expected British in Jamaica to be the most, but I now think it's the least. Very strange.

I am willing to acknowledge the presence of Norman genes in Sicily of course, but since on a PCA plot all Sicilians are similar, it makes me think regions with more Norman also have more MENA.

[Tooting Carmen]

Odd poll this one. Where's the "none of the above" option?

[Leto]

Jamaicans are usually almost pure blacks.

[Sikeliot]

Jamaicans are usually almost pure blacks.

From the 23andme results I have seen, they are usually in the 80 something percent African range, but a lot of studies place it higher than that.

[Leto]

From the 23andme results I have seen, they are usually in the 80 something percent African range, but a lot of studies place it higher than that.
Have you seen any Afram results? It would be good to post them here.

[just]

The camparison is so wrong, you should write like this :

Normans in Sicily, Slavs in Greece, Celts in England
Congo people on Sicily, Somalis in Greece, Jamaicans in Britain

[Sikeliot]

Bump

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Slavic in Greece > British in Jamaica > Norman in Sicily

[Sikeliot]

I will have to see Jamaican results on 23andme to accurately decide which answer I agree with most. I think I might have overestimated the European input in Jamaica.

[Loki]

You're a Viking, Sikeliot!

[Sikeliot]

You're a Viking, Sikeliot!

Because I look so much like one, right?

[Longbowman]

1) I don't know the British input into Jamaicans that define as black, only that it's less than European input in Aframs
2) I don't know the Norman input into Sicilians, it would be almost impossible to find out
3) I don't know the Slavic input into Greeks, it would be almost impossible to find out.

None will be particularly significant.

[Loki]

Because I look so much like one, right?

Nope. Unfortunately genotype =/= phenotype, and also the Viking traits are probably recessive :p But it is lurking in the background, literally under the skin ;)

[Sikeliot]

Nope. Unfortunately genotype =/= phenotype, and also the Viking traits are probably recessive :p

There is probably more European influence in Haitians than there is Norman in me. Most of my Germanic-like affinities are probably through my Polish side, as they have affinities to eastern Germans.

[Loki]

There is probably more European influence in Haitians than there is Norman in me.

No. Just no. :picard2:

I'm jelly of your Norman genes, by the way :(

[Sikeliot]

No. Just no. :picard2:

I'm jelly of your Norman genes, by the way :(

You're Dutch, you probably have more of them than me. As I said, my fully Sicilian cousin (from Palermo) doesn't even plot in the European plot on 23andme and has high SW Asian influence for a Sicilian, so the chance of that side of my family having Norman influence is low. Moreover she is on the LOW end of the North European component; and then the rest of my Sicilian side is from Messina, where Northern European influence is below 10%.

[Loki]

I am SO tempted to add the Norse banner to your profile :p

[Sikeliot]

I am SO tempted to add the Norse banner to your profile :p

It will be removed in seconds if you even try.

[Sikeliot]

Why are you so obsessed with me identifying with ancestry it cannot even be proven I have? I probably have more Senegambian in me than Norman.

[Loki]

Your Sicilian cousin is non-European??

[Sikeliot]

Your Sicilian cousin is non-European??

She doesn't plot in Europe on 23andme. She plots in the Druze cluster.

Which calculator in GEDmatch do you want to see her results from? I can show you any of them, and you'll see that the evidence of Norman genes is very slim. I'm not making this up just for shits and giggles.

[Loki]

Why are you so obsessed with me identifying with ancestry it cannot even be proven I have? I probably have more Senegambian in me than Norman.

You calling me obsessed? Of all people on this forum. :lol:

You're just easy to tease, that's all :) But there is truth in the tease. And I'm bored ;)

[Sikeliot]

You calling me obsessed? Of all people on this forum. :lol:

You're just easy to tease, that's all :) But there is truth in the tease. And I'm bored ;)

I actually want you to see her results. Choose any GEDmatch calculator. I can send you her results.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

5th option
I say #1 but I vote this. 5th option. The vote it because you can find some mulatto types there also. And say #1 because many Greeks I seen and most Greek members here have a Slavic vibe look. And Sicilians I don't really much with Norman influence looking as you see Greeks with a southern Slavic look.

[Sikeliot]

I think there is as much Lombard ancestry in parts of Sicily as there is Slavic in Greece.. Lombards though are central-southern Europeans, so they would not contribute terribly large amounts of North European genes.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

You calling me obsessed? Of all people on this forum. :lol:

You're just easy to tease, that's all :) But there is truth in the tease. And I'm bored ;)

Try teasing me here, I am bored too ��

[Loki]

It will be removed in seconds if you even try.

:rotfl:

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

I think there is as much Lombard ancestry in parts of Sicily as there is Slavic in Greece.. Lombards though are central-southern Europeans, so they would not contribute terribly large amounts of North European genes.

Your probably right and may do but I mean by phenotypes, that It seems yo show it in some sort.

[Sikeliot]

Try teasing me here, I am bored too ��

We can make fun of your Sub-Saharan African component, which is high for Mexicans. :)

[Loki]

Lombards though are central-southern Europeans, so they would not contribute terribly large amounts of North European genes.

Not the Lombards of old, no. They had no southern euro. They were Nordic.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

We can make fun of your Sub-Saharan African component, which is high for Mexicans. :)

Good one. :D

[Sikeliot]

Not the Lombards of old, no. They had no southern euro. They were Nordic.


Lombards in Sicily were transplants from Lombardy, not Germanic Lombards.

[Loki]

Lombards in Sicily were transplants from Lombardy, not Germanic Lombards.

When did they come to Sicily? What century?

[Longbowman]

We can make fun of your Sub-Saharan African component, which is high for Mexicans. :)

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/014/969/d9q75iv.gif

[Figaro]

Seems like a short list of "elites who didn't contribute so much to the masses of their countries outside of other elites/higher nobles and a small amount to some regular folk"...Normans I don't think contribrited Much to modern Sicilians, Slavic blood in Greece seems almost minimal (and if it does, far, far northern mainland) and third group seems self explanatory.

[Sikeliot]

When did they come to Sicily? What century?

Normans brought them.

[Loki]

Normans brought them.

That long ago. They were then the genuine Germanic Lombards - who originally came from Sweden. Nothing Southern European about them at all!

[Sikeliot]

That long ago. They were then the genuine Germanic Lombards - who originally came from Sweden. Nothing Southern European about them at all!

But that is impossible. North European genes in Sicily are around 10-12% and lower. When we say Lombards in Sicily we mean Romance-speaking people from northern Italy, near Milan. Lombards in Sicily today speak a Romance language, not fucking Swedish.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Lombards are not really native Italians but Slavians. But were rule by Romans and part of Northern Italy becoming part of Italy's territory, hence Romanzied and becoming Italians.

[Figaro]

The Normans who came to Sicily were indeed mostly actual Norse-derived individuals. I might be in agreement with SIkeliot though, in that they didn't contribute a huge amount to the majority of Sicilians. They were a particularly "stick to the families" kind of people. I don't think Lombards mated much at all either with them.

[Sikeliot]

The Normans who came to Sicily were indeed mostly actual Norse-derived individuals. I might be in agreement with SIkeliot though, in that they didn't contribute a huge amount to the majority of Sicilians. They were a particularly "stick to the families" kind of people. I don't think Lombards mated much at all either with them.

Vote above please?

I don't see how people think a ruling elite contributed to the majority of people's genes. Normans were a ruling elite, ruling over masses of poor Sicilians. There were also so few of them, why do you think they brought in people from northern Italy to Latinize the population??

[Longbowman]

But that is impossible. North European genes in Sicily are around 10-12% and lower. When we say Lombards in Sicily we mean Romance-speaking people from northern Italy, near Milan. Lombards in Sicily today speak a Romance language, not fucking Swedish.

Well, that's not Northern, that's Mesolithic (according to K23) when Mesolithic isn't going to top 50% even in Estonia, but in general I agree.

[Sikeliot]

Well, that's not Northern, that's Mesolithic (according to K23) when Mesolithic isn't going to top 50% even in Estonia, but in general I agree.

I mean on Dodecad, Eurogenes etc. Whatever is called "North European" never exceeds 15%, and is sometimes below 10%. Normans, if they were indeed Norse, would have scored highly this component, thus showing that 1) they contributed very little to Sicilians in general and 2) if we believe most of the little North Euro in Sicily is Norman, then I shudder to think how little North Euro they scored beforehand.. 4%? That is Cyprus levels.

[Loki]

But that is impossible. North European genes in Sicily are around 10-12% and lower. When we say Lombards in Sicily we mean Romance-speaking people from northern Italy, near Milan. Lombards in Sicily today speak a Romance language, not fucking Swedish.

Do you know the history of the Lombards? They came from Sweden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards#Early_history

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Lombard_Migration.jpg

[Loki]

The Normans who came to Sicily were indeed mostly actual Norse-derived individuals. I might be in agreement with SIkeliot though, in that they didn't contribute a huge amount to the majority of Sicilians. They were a particularly "stick to the families" kind of people. I don't think Lombards mated much at all either with them.

The Normans and Lombards were genetically probably very similar.

[Sikeliot]

Do you know the history of the Lombards? They came from Sweden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards#Early_history

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Lombard_Migration.jpg


But when we say "Lombards in Sicily" we mean NORTHERN ITALIANS from the modern region of Lombardy, who were already well Latinized. Normans brought them to Latinize the population. If they spoke Swedish and were not Latin, they wouldn't have been brought there at all.

[Longbowman]

Do you know the history of the Lombards? They came from Sweden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards#Early_history

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Lombard_Migration.jpg

Today's Lombards have had little immigration since Lombardy was termed Lombardy and they're not Northern, genetically. Though my Lombard flatmate looks very, very Northern. On the other hand one girl I met from his town was a striking Mediterranean beauty. Still, genetically, by the time the Lombards reached Sicily they were probably not as Nordic as all that. I mean, certainly Italy's been Nordicised since late Roman times but not to that extent.


I mean on Dodecad, Eurogenes etc. Whatever is called "North European" never exceeds 15%, and is sometimes below 10%. Normans, if they were indeed Norse, would have scored highly this component, thus showing that 1) they contributed very little to Sicilians in general and 2) if we believe most of the little North Euro in Sicily is Norman, then I shudder to think how little North Euro they scored beforehand.. 4%? That is Cyprus levels.

They'd have scored 40ish percent.

[Sikeliot]

They'd have scored 40ish percent.

40% North Euro for who? Normans?

[Longbowman]

40% North Euro for who? Normans?

Yes, 40% Mesolithic.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

I mean on Dodecad, Eurogenes etc. Whatever is called "North European" never exceeds 15%, and is sometimes below 10%. Normans, if they were indeed Norse, would have scored highly this component, thus showing that 1) they contributed very little to Sicilians in general and 2) if we believe most of the little North Euro in Sicily is Norman, then I shudder to think how little North Euro they scored beforehand.. 4%? That is Cyprus levels.

What's the average North European in Sicilians on Dodecad? Mine is 20% which from it it seems my Spanish ancestors must had carry high Celtic/Visigoth in them.

[Sikeliot]

Today's Lombards have had little immigration since Lombardy was termed Lombardy and they're not Northern, genetically. Though my Lombard flatmate looks very, very Northern. On the other hand one girl I met from his town was a striking Mediterranean beauty. Still, genetically, by the time the Lombards reached Sicily they were probably not as Nordic as all that. I mean, certainly Italy's been Nordicised since late Roman times but not to that extent.

I have a Lombard friend who looks like she could be German. But she has relatives who look more southern European for sure. She told me most people in Lombardy look like southern French.

Anyway Lombards in Sicily were mostly inland, in Enna and the inland parts of the eastern provinces.. this is why these regions have some lighter types compared to the coasts.

[Sikeliot]

What's the average North European in Sicilians on Dodecad? Mine is 20% which from it it seems my Spanish ancestors must had carry high Celtic/Visigoth in them.

11 or 12%.

[Loki]

But when we say "Lombards in Sicily" we mean NORTHERN ITALIANS from the modern region of Lombardy, who were already well Latinized. Normans brought them to Latinize the population. If they spoke Swedish and were not Latin, they wouldn't have been brought there at all.

Let's see ... when did the Lombards settle in Italy? And when did the Normans take them to Sicily? Therefore ... how many years between the two events?

Btw the Lombards never spoke Swedish, they spoke Lombardic - another Germanic language.

[Sikeliot]

Let's see ... when did the Lombards settle in Italy? And when did the Normans take them to Sicily? Therefore ... how many years between the two events?

Btw the Lombards never spoke Swedish, they spoke Lombardic - another Germanic language.

My thoughts are that Normans in Sicily were mostly northern French, and Lombards in Sicily were mostly northern Italians from modern Lombardy. Lombards settled Sicily 900 years ago.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

11 or 12%.

I see, interesting. Lower than what my Spanish ancestors passed to me.

[Longbowman]

11 or 12%.

No? V3 only has 'East' and 'West' European (and Mediterranean) and Sicilians score around 20% on it which fits in with their K8 score.

[Sikeliot]

No? V3 only has 'East' and 'West' European (and Mediterranean) and Sicilians score around 20% on it which fits in with their K8 score.

You can't assume all of "West European" is North European. Some of it probably is, but not all. When North European is specified, it's much lower. The West Euro must be a combination of Mediterranean and Nordic.

[Longbowman]

You can't assume all of "West European" is North European. Some of it probably is, but not all. When North European is specified, it's much lower.

Your entire premise is flawed. Northern Europeans themselves won't score so highly on 'Northern' components. Besides I'm not sure Northern European is specifically enumerated on any Dodecad run, of which there are only 4 (Africa9 doesn't count) and V3 is the best. You're just making assumptions.

K8 is the most up to date and Sicilians get about 40% of the most Northern populations (Balts) and about 45% of most Germanics, for 22% overall (WHG, indigenous European).

[Sikeliot]

Your entire premise is flawed. Northern Europeans themselves won't score so highly on 'Northern' components. Besides I'm not sure Northern European is specifically enumerated on any Dodecad run, of which there are only 4 (Africa9 doesn't count) and V3 is the best. You're just making assumptions.

K12b does.

[Loki]

My thoughts are that Normans in Sicily were mostly northern French, and Lombards in Sicily were mostly northern Italians from modern Lombardy. Lombards settled Sicily 900 years ago.

900 years ago, the Lombards were certainly more distinct and you cannot by any stretch of the imagination call them "modern" northern Italians.

The Normans in Sicily were Normans. Not "northern French".

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

You can't assume all of "West European" is North European. Some of it probably is, but not all. When North European is specified, it's much lower. The West Euro must be a combination of Mediterranean and Nordic.

I assumed on average they're more Mediterranean. Surprising I was looking at my Dodecad and it seems my North European is a bit higher than my Mediterranean.

[Longbowman]

K12b does.

Higher the K, lower the N; Sicilians scoring 12% means Germans will be scoring only 30% or so.

[Sikeliot]

900 years ago, the Lombards were certainly more distinct and you cannot by any stretch of the imagination call them "modern" northern Italians.


But when we say Lombard in that context we mean people from the land that is now Lombardy, as well as the people they ruled over in Liguria.

[Sikeliot]

Higher the K, lower the N; Sicilians scoring 12% means Germans will be scoring only 30% or so.

I am fairly sure that they score the lowest North Euro and lowest Baltic/East Euro in all of Europe, though, on that K12b run and V3.

[Sikeliot]

Ok, here is the question I pose for all of those who think there is any sort of substantial Germanic input in Sicily.

Go back 2000 years and take that influence away. Where would Sicilians plot? Given where they plot now.. seemingly, pre-Norman Sicilians would not have been such that we'd today consider them genetically "European".

[Loki]

But when we say Lombard in that context we mean people from the land that is now Lombardy, as well as the people they ruled over in Liguria.

What does history say? Let's see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards#Norman_conquest.2C_1017.E2.80.931078

The diminished Beneventan principality soon lost its independence to the papacy and declined in importance until it fell in the Norman conquest of southern Italy. The Normans, first called in by the Lombards to fight the Byzantines for control of Apulia and Calabria (under the likes of Melus of Bari and Arduin, among others), had become rivals for hegemony in the south.

This is specifically about Lombards, the Germanic tribe. Not just random northern Italians.

[Sikeliot]

Then they didn't have a substantial impact otherwise North European input would not be so low. Again, I want an answer to my question. What were pre-Germanic (if you will) Sicilians like genetically? Couldn't have been too European.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Then they didn't have a substantial impact otherwise North European input would not be so low. Again, I want an answer to my question. What were pre-Germanic (if you will) Sicilians like genetically? Couldn't have been too European.

I believe they would not be so different from the Phoenicians.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

They along with the Greeks were living in Sicily also before Romans when there.

[Loki]

And even another Germanic influence we forgot to mention ... the Varangian Guard:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard

The Varangian Guard (Greek: Τάγμα των Βαράγγων, Tágma tōn Varángōn) was an elite unit of the Byzantine Army, from the 10th to the 14th centuries, whose members served as personal bodyguards to the Byzantine Emperors. They are known for being primarily composed of Germanic peoples, specifically Scandinavians and Anglo-Saxons.

The Varangians also participated in the partial reconquest of Sicily from the Arabs under George Maniakes in 1038. Here, they fought alongside Normans recently arrived in Italy seeking adventure and Lombards from Byzantine-held Apulia.

[Sikeliot]

Oh my. Please stop quoting history for just a minute and think about the genetics.

If you remove the North Euro from Sicilian genes, as it stands today, there is no European population left for them to still plot with.. Sicilians, without the North Euro they now have, would plot outside of today's genetic Europe, and would probably be not far off from Cypriots. Or they'd plot in some weird no man's land, between the Greek islands and Cyprus.

This is not probable. It makes little sense for this to be the case, does it??

[Loki]

Again, I want an answer to my question. What were pre-Germanic (if you will) Sicilians like genetically? Couldn't have been too European.

We can only speculate I guess. Well, it was ruled by the Arabs before the Norman conquest.

[Sikeliot]

We can only speculate I guess. Well, it was ruled by the Arabs before the Norman conquest.

My point is, say we assume Sicilians do have Germanic input. Sicilians are peripheral Europeans right now, right on the limits of what is genetic Europe. Remove the Germanic influence and you basically have a Near Eastern people living in Europe, in the middle of the Mediterranean. This makes no sense to me and seems improbable.

Thus it makes more sense to me to think that the genetics have not changed that much.

For instance, if we were to assume Greeks are Slavicized.. you can remove much of Greeks' North Euro and they still plot in Europe. The same is not true for Sicily because it's already so low.

[Loki]

Oh my. Please stop quoting history for just a minute and think about the genetics.


We have a full account of the history of Sicily. We do not have a thorough-enough knowledge of modern Sicilian genetics. Too few people have been tested. We need more samples to get a better picture that would match its history.

[Loki]

My point is, say we assume Sicilians do have Germanic input. Sicilians are peripheral Europeans right now, right on the limits of what is genetic Europe. Remove the Germanic influence and you basically have a Near Eastern people living in Europe, in the middle of the Mediterranean. This makes no sense to me and seems improbable.

Thus it makes more sense to me to think that the genetics have not changed that much.

For instance, if we were to assume Greeks are Slavicized.. you can remove much of Greeks' North Euro and they still plot in Europe. The same is not true for Sicily because it's already so low.

Too many assumptions and too subjective a way of looking at it.

[Sikeliot]

We have a full account of the history of Sicily. We do not have a thorough-enough knowledge of modern Sicilian genetics. Too few people have been tested. We need more samples to get a better picture that would match its history.

If you're going to find anywhere with high North European input, it'd probably be the inland regions. Most Sicilians, on the other hand, live on the much more densely populated coast. I'd try Enna, because that is the highest Lombard influenced area and they tend to be fairly light.

Palermo, from what I have seen, is not the Nordic paradise people think it is.

[Loki]

If you're going to find anywhere with high North European input, it'd probably be the inland regions. Most Sicilians, on the other hand, live on the much more densely populated coast. I'd try Enna, because that is the highest Lombard influenced area and they tend to be fairly light.

Palermo, from what I have seen, is not the Nordic paradise people think it is.

Have you been to Sicily personally?

Anyways Sikeliot I hope you realise I'm mostly trolling you :) ;) But you are trying to 'whitewash' Sicily into some picture you have of them in your mind.

[Sikeliot]

I am giving the best extrapolations I can give based on the genetic data we have. When access to new data is available, maybe my views will change :)

[alfieb]

Palermo, from what I have seen, is not the Nordic paradise people think it is.

There's no such thing as gray area, with you. Things must be black or white. Either Palermo isn't Norman at all, or it's a Nordic paradise.

[Sikeliot]

There's no such thing as gray area, with you. Things must be black or white. Either Palermo isn't Norman at all, or it's a Nordic paradise.

Well collectively based on the multitude of results I have seen, Trapani has the strongest North European, and Palermo has the same amount as Catania, Agrigento, etc.

[Sikeliot]

bump