Russian draft resolution on Ukraine passed by UN Security Council

[Loki]

Russian draft resolution on Ukraine passed by UN Security Council (http://rt.com/news/233243-un-council-resolution-ukraine/)

The United Nations Security Council has voted unanimously to approve a Russia-drafted resolution to support the Minsk agreements, reached by the leaders of France, Germany, Russia and Ukraine last week.

The resolution was submitted to the UNSC by Russia on February 13, a day after the Minsk deal was agreed on. It is aimed at endorsing and executing the Minsk agreements. The document also expresses concern over the continuing violence in eastern Ukraine, and stresses the importance of resolving the conflict peacefully.

“After the unprecedented diplomatic efforts last week, Ukraine has a chance to turn a dramatic page in its history,” said Russia’s UN envoy Vitaly Churkin, who expressed “gratitude” towards the other parties for endorsing the document.

Moscow would aid “in full” the realization of the agreement, he added.

The resolution calls for a “total ceasefire” and a “political solution” that respects the “sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Ukraine”.

Despite the unanimous vote on the resolution, a number of UN Security Council delegations keep selectively interpreting the new Minsk agreement, Churkin said.

“We are disappointed with the discussion, because some of our colleagues have gone on the usual rhetoric route, often the rhetoric was not harmless. Especially harmful in the present circumstances is an attempt to rewrite the Minsk agreement,” the Russian diplomat told the council.

Churkin urged the warring parties in Ukraine to create proper security conditions for the OSCE monitoring mission in the conflict zone and Debaltsevo, in particular.

“It is because of the continued shelling of cities, that the Minsk Agreement of September did not last as originally planned. Indeed, the OSCE observers should work including in the area of Debaltsevo, but in order to do so, they must be provided with security. We all have to remember that these are unarmed people, although in armored vehicles, but still without certain security conditions, it is difficult to expect that they will be able to effectively control something there,” said Churkin.

During the heated debate in the chamber, Churkin repeatedly urged the Ukrainian side to enter into dialogue with representatives of its own country’s east – instead of constantly blaming Moscow for interfering the conflict.

“You just cannot establish this dialogue! This is why we keep telling you: Start the dialogue with the residents of the east. And you say that we are interfering... and then we are getting asked: What do they want, the people of the east? Well, they want federalization. Find a dialogue!” Churkin said in rebuttal to his Ukrainian colleague.

The debate with his Latvian and Ukrainian counterparts became so tense that Churkin had to ask the chair of the meeting to calm down the other members. The Russian envoy meanwhile took time to stress that in fact it is irrelevant where the demarcation line will stretch, as long that the sides are talking about the “reintegration of Ukrainian territory.”

“Are you planning to demarcate a state border there?! Well, let’s demarcate a border then, and look differently at this issue,” Churkin said rhetorically.

The Russian diplomat urged all parties involved to interpret the Minsk agreement “letter by letter” in order for the ceasefire to last.

The plan, hammered out during 16-hour negotiations on February 12, stipulates the comprehensive ceasefire, the withdrawal of heavy weapons from the frontline, an all-for-all prisoner exchange, and passage for humanitarian aid convoys.

In the medium turn, the Minsk peace plan calls for the withdrawal of any “foreign troops” and “mercenaries” from the conflict zone, general amnesty for the rebels and the OSCE using its drone fleet and monitors on the ground to ensure the implementation of agreements. It also provides for handing back of the border controls of the Ukrainian government, and lifting of the economic blockade that Kiev imposed on the eastern regions.

Eventually, the treaty proposes new elections in eastern Ukraine and a decentralization that would grant more power to the rebel regions.

[Hong Key]

Full independence would probably make more sense. And did the "rebels" agree to this? What will happens if the rebs ignore it?

[ЛыSSый]

Full independence would probably make more sense. And did the "rebels" agree to this? What will happens if the rebs ignore it? our army will be beaten more and more and more and more

[Hong Key]

our army will be beaten more and more and more and more

Do you think there can be reconciliation? or has to much blood been spilled as well as other political/ethnic differences?

[Loki]

Do you think there can be reconciliation? or has to much blood been spilled as well as other political/ethnic differences?

I very much doubt things can go back to "normal" (pre-revolution) again, ever. How can Donbassers respect and live under a government who have been bombing/shelling/killing them? It just doesn't seem realistic to me. Donbas will have to have autonomy to a large degree.

There are strong parallels with Kosovo actually, when you think of it.

[Methmatician]

The resolution calls for a “total ceasefire” and a “political solution” that respects the “sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Ukraine”.
And yet, in another thread, Putin told Ukraine to give up territory that the rebels were trying to take after the Minsk agreement was signed. :lmao

[Hong Key]

I very much doubt things can go back to "normal" (pre-revolution) again, ever. How can Donbassers respect and live under a government who have been bombing/shelling/killing them? It just doesn't seem realistic to me. Donbas will have to have autonomy to a large degree.

There are strong parallels with Kosovo actually, when you think of it.

Could partial autonomy work vs new independent country? I can't imagine Donbas wanting to share it's riches with The Ukraine and defiantly the West/WB/IMF would want to rape it's resources/economy. Maybe I need to reread the article to understand what the plan for autonomy would entail. Also do you think the Rebs will agree to it?

[Methmatician]

There are strong parallels with Kosovo actually, when you think of it.
Huh? In what way? There was no attempted genocide in Ukraine, Russians weren't discriminated against, NATO hasn't bombed anyone (and hopefully won't), and in Ukraine's case this conflict is the product of a neighbouring nation who wants to decide the future of another independent nation.

[Loki]

And yet, in another thread, Putin told Ukraine to give up territory that the rebels were trying to take after the Minsk agreement was signed. :lmao

True, but those particular words were actually not his, but rather a somewhat sensational news report title. It is somewhat misleading :)

[Methmatician]

True, but those particular words were actually not his, but rather a somewhat sensational news report title. It is somewhat misleading :)
That's a little odd. I'm not surprised RT would sensationalise their news titles, but why they (a state funded news outlet) would misquote their own President?

[Loki]

Huh? In what way? There was no attempted genocide in Ukraine, Russians weren't discriminated against, NATO hasn't bombed anyone (and hopefully won't), and in Ukraine's case this conflict is the product of a neighbouring nation who wants to decide the future of another independent nation.

Not true, it was the Donbas residents themselves who started an uprising after the Maidan revolution - obviously inspired by Russia's annexation of Crimea. They probably thought Russia would quickly come to their aid and do the same as in Crimea, but Russia never had such a plan for Donbas. It is their bad luck. Crimeans are lucky.

As for parallels - a corner section of a country with an ethnic minority which seeks independence from the capital's rule, and an armed struggle following in order to achieve this purpose. Central government shelling its own citizens in that section. External mediation required. Etc. We don't yet know what the outcome is, but outright independence for Donbas seems very unlikely ... that's the main difference.

[Loki]

That's a little odd. I'm not surprised RT would sensationalise their news titles, but why they (a state funded news outlet) would misquote their own President?

It is a misinterpretation on your side also of "giving up territory". He just doesn't want the conflict to go on. The rebels basically have Debaltserve in their hands, but the govt troops could continue to try and resist, and therefore an escalation ensuing. The main thing now is ceasefire and an end of strategic maneuvering.

[Methmatician]

Not true, it was the Donbas residents themselves who started an uprising after the Maidan revolution - obviously inspired by Russia's annexation of Crimea. They probably thought Russia would quickly come to their aid and do the same as in Crimea, but Russia never had such a plan for Donbas. It is their bad luck. Crimeans are lucky.
Strelkov admitted to starting the conflict and admitted that the war in Donbass would not have been possible without the help of the Russian Armed Forces.

As for parallels - a corner section of a country with an ethnic minority which seeks independence from the capital's rule, and an armed struggle following in order to achieve this purpose.
So it's more akin to Rhodesia. Since the Albanians in Kosovo were legally discriminated against, unlike the Russian's in Eastern Ukraine.

[Methmatician]

It is a misinterpretation on your side also of "giving up territory". He just doesn't want the conflict to go on. The rebels basically have Debaltserve in their hands, but the govt troops could continue to try and resist, and therefore an escalation ensuing. The main thing now is ceasefire and an end of strategic maneuvering.
Maybe the rebels should stop attacking Dealtseve since they don't control it and there's suppose to be a ceasefire. But, of course, the rebels don't want peace until they're satisfied with the amount of Ukrainian territory they can steal.

[Loki]

So it's more akin to Rhodesia. Since the Albanians in Kosovo were legally discriminated against, unlike the Russian's in Eastern Ukraine.

Rhodesia? :confused:

[Crn Volk]

Strelkov admitted to starting the conflict and admitted that the war in Donbass would not have been possible without the help of the Russian Armed Forces.

So it's more akin to Rhodesia. Since the Albanians in Kosovo were legally discriminated against, unlike the Russian's in Eastern Ukraine.

Are you sure?

http://sputniknews.com/voiceofrussia/news/2014_03_20/UN-rights-watchdog-confirms-discrimination-of-Russian-minority-in-Ukraine-1665/

Besides, the precedent was set in Kosovo for such conflicts in the future. Russia and others warned the West of this.

[Loki]

Could partial autonomy work vs new independent country? I can't imagine Donbas wanting to share it's riches with The Ukraine and defiantly the West/WB/IMF would want to rape it's resources/economy. Maybe I need to reread the article to understand what the plan for autonomy would entail. Also do you think the Rebs will agree to it?

It could, but I think they would always have full independence as an ultimate goal in the future in their thoughts.

You touch on a good point - Donbas is economically very important to a very poor Ukraine. Without Donbas the country wouldn't have much going for it economically, so they won't let them go so easily.

[Methmatician]

Are you sure?
Speaking at the UN session on Ukraine yesterday, the Croatian-born human rights commissioner confirmed that Russian minority in Ukraine often falls victim to discrimination and even attacks, but noted it looked like these rights violations had neither a widespread occurrence or “systematic character.”

So it's like Indians in Australia.

Besides, the precedent was set in Kosovo for such conflicts in the future. Russia and others warned the West of this.
That precedent was attempted genocide and legal discrimination. And what precedent gave Russia the 'right' to invade Ukraine? Russia signed a document that contained the following:


Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.
Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
Seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, "if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.


So far they broke three of those promises.

Rhodesia? :confused:
White people in Rhodesia didn't want to live in under Black rule so they separated and made their own republic. But there was no attempted genocide on White Rhodesians so it was simply them not wanting to answer to the new government.

[Sarmatian]

That's a little odd. I'm not surprised RT would sensationalise their news titles, but why they (a state funded news outlet) would misquote their own President?

Must be because president and government have no such control over these media outlets as you tend to believe :rolleyes:

[Methmatician]

Must be because president and government have no such control over these media outlets as you tend to believe :rolleyes:
That doesn't answer my question. RT is a state funded propaganda new outlet. More likely what happened is sloppy journalism. Which is normal for them.

[Sarmatian]

That doesn't answer my question. RT is a state funded propaganda new outlet. More likely what happened is sloppy journalism. Which is normal for them.

Nah, it's just state funded news outlet. It doesn't mean it's made for propaganda. If you think there is someone from government sitting there and telling them what to report about 24/7 you're wrong. The only thing government does is appointing director, everything else is up to director in he has a lot of freedom in the way to do things. Just because RT doesn't critisize Russian government doesn't mean it's all propaganda, RT doesn't critisize US government either nor any other government for that matter. They just reporting news, sometimes these news are uncomfortable truth for powers on different sides of the globe but it's still far from being propaganda. I know it's will not be convincing enough for you so let's just agree to disagree.

[Zmey Gorynych]

At this moment independence for Donbass is better for Ukraine than Donbass itself. Donbass will be nothing more than another Abkhazia, Transnsitria and the likes - a backward shithole; a paradise for gun trafficking, drug trafficking, human trafficking, money laundering, etc; a millstone on Ukraine's neck. It's not because of their great love for international law that the russians are so keen to "respect" Ukraine's teritorial integrity after not giving a shit less than a year ago.

Donbass will be Russia's blackmail tool. That's the role Putin assigned to this region before the war even started.

Ukrainians could really fuck up Putin's plan by giving independence to separatists, whatever territory (20.000 square km or so) they control now would become the Donbass Republic, but like many before them they care for appearances/don't want to lose face and will pay dearly for it.

[Zmey Gorynych]

I think theire aiming for a lot more than just those 20.000 sq. km..

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Ruslangsup2001.PNG
Yes, they're (by they I mean Kremlin) aiming for more, not just the blue part but the gray (or is it vomit green) part also. The endgame was always Ukraine as a whole not just a small part in the east. If Donbass remains a part of Ukraine Russia might just achieve that.

[Methmatician]

The only thing government does is appointing director, everything else is up to director in he has a lot of freedom in the way to do things.
Yeah, that's my point. They can appoint anyone they want and fire them if they don't like what they approve.

Just because RT doesn't critisize Russian government doesn't mean it's all propaganda, RT doesn't critisize US government either nor any other government for that matter. They just reporting news, sometimes these news are uncomfortable truth for powers on different sides of the globe but it's still far from being propaganda. I know it's will not be convincing enough for you so let's just agree to disagree.
It's like you've never read RT before :laugh: In this article (http://rt.com/news/226315-ukraine-state-emergency-alert/) they refer to the Ukrainian government as 'coup-imposed'. Then there's this article (http://rt.com/news/prime-time/where-did-americas-missing-millions-go-holodomor-lessons/) that claimed the US purposely starved millions of farmers to death during the Great Depression despite these numbers being pulled out of nowhere and the fact that starvation was very rare during the Great Depression.

Conspiracy theories, anti-Western, and anti-American views is what RT thrives on. They exist simply to deflect any attention from Russian wrongdoings and regularly rely on 'whatabout' tactics (like the article above that called the "Great Depression" the "Great American Holodomor"). So is RT really objective? :vote_no:

[Methmatician]

since Hruljćuga is absent, I see that Methmatician is trying recompensate in Bosniak name. :D
I don't see how that's true. Most people here wouldn't even know I was Bosniak if other people (like you in this example) didn't bring it up every time I post something they don't like.

[Methmatician]

It doesent take a genious to figure that out, really.
I don't make 10 threads a day about Bosnia and Bosniaks like Hrulj did so you're going to have to explain how 'it doesent take a genious to figure that out'.

I dont need to say shit here.Slav thats backstabbing other Slavs, who would that be, illyrian maybe?? xD

Slav in denial.
So if Bosnia committed genocide against Greeks who would you stand by? Your Slavic 'brothers' or your Orthodox 'brothers'. You shouldn't clout your mind with imaginary brotherhoods. If a country does something wrong it is wrong regardless of any connection I may have to that country. Don't turn into some sort of Slavic 'vatnik' (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vatnik).

[Methmatician]

thats actually quite easy to answer.My orthodox brothers ofcourse, its like this..
There you go. So don't give me that 'betray slavic brothers' crap when there was never a Slavic brotherhood to begin with. Just look at how Russia betrayed Ukraine and you'll see how much the imaginary 'brotherhood' is worth.

[Methmatician]

tell me some more of how Russia betrayed Ukraine
Budapest Memorandums on Security Assurances, 1994 (http://www.cfr.org/nonproliferation-arms-control-and-disarmament/budapest-memorandums-security-assurances-1994/p32484)

you filthy muslim.. Pasha must pay good in those gold coins there muslim.
What a head :smilie_auslachen:

[ЛыSSый]

Do you think there can be reconciliation? i hope in it


or has to much blood been spilled as well as other political/ethnic differences? now exists political differenses only.
and some pseudopathriotic totalitarian destructive sects.
Also exists rather big menthal differences between descendants of polish/austro-hungarian slaves and whole other population of hohlostan.
Maybe it will a biggest problem, cause the first group can't be a civiliced people as definition and they feel themself good only if they are under the hard master or in a bottom of cociety.

[ЛыSSый]

tell me some more of how Russia betrayed Ukraine, you filthy muslim..

http://img.dni.ru/binaries/v2_articlephotoauto/832935.jpg

Pasha must pay good in those gold coins there muslim.

they are not really nazy or fashists, ones just an pseudopathriotic totalitarian destructive sects.

[Methmatician]

I find 1,2,3 quite humorous as they are fully respected along with the rest..
Hmm.. Are you really a moron or simply playing one?

1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine;
Russia invaded and annexed Crimea. And now they're fuelling a war in Donbass. I wouldn't call that respecting the existing borders of Ukraine.

2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations;
Again, invasion of Crimea and the War in Donbass.

3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind;
Russia threatened to shut off gas to Ukraine.

None of their weapons is used within Ukraine territorial borders, neither are any out of these self-defending from Ukraine aggression.
Not according to this ARES report (http://armamentresearch.com/Uploads/Research%20Report%20No.%203%20-%20Raising%20Red%20Flags.pdf) in the weapons used in the conflict.

"In at least one case, later production designated marksman rifles were documented in the hands of a separatist group, notably two VSS rifles (Pseush, n.d.). These Russian-produced weapons are analogous to those seen in the hands of presumed Russian forces during the annexation of Ukraine, and are not known to be in the inventory of any Ukrainian security forces. Their appearance at this later stage of the conflict is noteworthy."

"At least two Russian-produced PKP ‘Pecheneg’ light machine guns have also been observed, ostensibly in eastern Ukraine (Pseush, n.d.). These weapons are significant in that the PKP is not known to be in service with Ukrainian forces, and has only been exported outside of Russia in limited quantities. As described above, the PKP was documented in the hands of suspected Russian forces in Crimea."

"The modern Russian ASVK anti-materiel rifle has also been documented in service with separatist forces in at least one case. The ASVK is chambered for the 12.7 x 108 mm cartridge, most commonly seen in use with heavy machine guns, and is capable of engaging targets at ranges in excess of 1000m. The ASVK is a derivative of the earlier KSVK, produced by the Degtyarev Plant (Завод имени В.А. Дегтярев; abbreviated ‘ZiD’) which did not enter production until the late 1990s. The ASVK is much more recent; the Russian military has only introduced the ASVK in limited numbers, beginning less than two years ago, and is not known to have exported any of these rifles. The weapon is not in the inventories of Ukrainian government forces, and has not otherwise been documented in the hands of a non-state armed group."

"RPG-18 and RPG-22 systems have also been acquired by pro-Russian separatists, as have a handful of RPG-26 rocket launchers. A photo published in July by the Ukrainian ATO Press Centre shows crates of RPG-18 rocket launchers with inventory paperwork indicating they were stored in a Russian military facililty as recently as June 2011. Another Russian light weapon system, the MRO-A disposable incendiary rocket launcher, has also been documented in eastern Ukraine (УНИАН, 2014a). The MRO-A launches a 74 mm rocket carrying a thermobaric warhead, designed to engage structures. This system is not known to have been exported outside of Russia, and its presence in the hands of pro-Russian separatists is striking (Smallwood, 2014a)."

"ARES has previously documented the packaging for a 9M39 missile, fired from the 9K38 system, which was recovered from separatist fighters by Ukrainian government forces. Photos of the crate show paperwork indicating that it was previously stockpiled in a Russian military facility in Yeysk, Russia, with inventory markings indicating it was in storage there as recently as 12 April 2014 (Jenzen-Jones & Smallwood, 2014)."

"In addition to those captured from Ukrainian forces, there have been reports suggesting that some T-64 series tanks in separatist hands may have come from across the Russian border (Gordon et al., 2014; Marcus, 2014)."

"Pro-Russian separatist forces have also employed a number of T-72 series MBTs. Alongside T-72B tanks, separatist forces have been documented operating T-72B Model 1989 tanks31, which Russia is not known to have exported (Tsvetkova & Vasovic, 2014). The T-72BA and T-72B3 variants have also been employed by separatists, with the presence of the T-72B3 being particularly noteworthy. With Kontakt-5 ERA, an upgraded fire control system, a ballistic computer and a modern thermal sight, the T-72B3 represents the latest T-72 model in Russian service. It was introduced in 2013, and is not known to have been exported."

"Unsurprisingly, the ubiquitous Kalashnikov family of rifles has been in use with all parties involved in the conflict. Notably, the most common variant carried by the initially unidentified uniformed personnel was the AK-74M (chambered for 5.45 x 39 mm), identified by its black polymer furniture, push button folding solid butt-stock, and optical sight rail on the left side. This specific type is standard issue for Russian Federation forces and is not commonly seen elsewhere, with the only other known users being Azerbaijan and Cyprus. As it was not produced until after Ukrainian independence in 1991, and has not been exported from Russia to Ukraine subsequently, it is not part of that country’s inventory"

"The RPK-74M light machine gun was widely observed, as were the PKM and PKP GPMGs. While the PKM is common throughout conflict zones the world over, the PKP ‘Pecheneg’ machine gun that supplements it in Russian service is rarely seen elsewhere, and has not been procured by Ukraine. Distinguishable by its raised carrying handle and ribbed barrel, it is furnished as standard in black polymer."

"In at least one case, laterproduction designated marksman rifles were documented in the hands of a separatist group, notably two VSS rifles (Pseush, n.d.). These Russian-produced weapons are analogous to those seen in the hands of presumed Russian forces during the annexation of Ukraine, and are not known to be in the inventory of any Ukrainian security forces. Their appearance at this later stage of the conflict is noteworthy."

"At least two Russian-produced PKP ‘Pecheneg’ light machine guns have also been observed, ostensibly in eastern Ukraine (Pseush, n.d.). These weapons are significant in that the PKP is not known to be in service with Ukrainian forces, and has only been exported outside of Russia in limited quantities. As described above, the PKP was documented in the hands of suspected Russian forces in Crimea."

"The modern Russian ASVK anti-materiel rifle has also been documented in service with separatist forces in at least one case. The ASVK is chambered for the 12.7 x 108 mm cartridge, most commonly seen in use with heavy machine guns, and is capable of engaging targets at ranges in excess of 1000m. The ASVK is a derivative of the earlier KSVK, produced by the Degtyarev Plant (Завод имени В.А. Дегтярев; abbreviated ‘ZiD’) which did not enter production until the late 1990s. The ASVK is much more recent; the Russian military has only introduced the ASVK in limited numbers, beginning less than two years ago, and is not known to have exported any of these rifles. The weapon is not in the inventories of Ukrainian government forces, and has not otherwise been documented in the hands of a non-state armed group."

"RPG-18 and RPG-22 systems have also been acquired by pro-Russian separatists, as have a handful of RPG-26 rocket launchers. A photo published in July by the Ukrainian ATO Press Centre shows crates of RPG-18 rocket launchers with inventory paperwork indicating they were stored in a Russian military facili/ty as recently as June 2011. Another Russian light weapon system, the MRO-A disposable incendiary rocket launcher, has also been documented in eastern Ukraine (УНИАН, 2014a). The MRO-A launches a 74 mm rocket carrying a thermobaric warhead, designed to engage structures. This system is not known to have been exported outside of Russia, and its presence in the hands of pro-Russian separatists is striking (Smallwood, 2014a)."

"ARES has previously documented the packaging for a 9M39 missile, fired from the 9K38 system, which was recovered from separatist fighters by Ukrainian government forces. Photos of the crate show paperwork indicating that it was previously stockpiled in a Russian military facility in Yeysk, Russia, with inventory markings indicating it was in storage there as recently as 12 April 2014 (Jenzen-Jones & Smallwood, 2014)."

"In addition to those captured from Ukrainian forces, there have been reports suggesting that some T-64 series tanks in separatist hands may have come from across the Russian border (Gordon et al., 2014; Marcus, 2014)."

"Pro-Russian separatist forces have also employed a number of T-72 series MBTs. Alongside T-72B tanks, separatist forces have been documented operating T-72B Model 1989 tanks31, which Russia is not known to have exported (Tsvetkova & Vasovic, 2014). The T-72BA and T-72B3 variants have also been employed by separatists, with the presence of the T-72B3 being particularly noteworthy. With Kontakt-5 ERA, an upgraded fire control system, a ballistic computer and a modern thermal sight, the T-72B3 represents the latest T-72 model in Russian service. It was introduced in 2013, and is not known to have been exported."

"Among the many others, one notable model of IFV seen is the BTR-82AM. This is a modernised version of the BTR-80, with modifications to bring it up to the standard of the latest-production BTR-82A. The BTR-82AM was only adopted into Russian service in early 2013. Russia is not known to have exported examples to any other country. To date, only separatist fighters have been documented in possession of this IFV (Lost Armour, n.d.)."



Vehicle
Country of Origin
Type
Source


BTR-82AM
Russian Federation
Infantry fighting vehicle
Lost Armour, n.d.


MT-LB 6MA
Russian Federation
Armoured personnel carrier
Lost Armour, n.d.


MT-LBVM
Russian Federation
Armoured personnel carrier
Lost Armour, n.d.


MT-LBVMK
Russian Federation
Armoured personnel carrier
Lost Armour, n.d.


Orlan-10
Russian Federation
Unmanned aerial vehicle
СБ України, 2014a


T-72B Model 1989
Soviet Union
Main battle tank
Tsvetkova & Vasovic, 2014


T-72B3
Russian Federation
Main battle tank
‘Vesti Backstage’, 2014


1RL239
Soviet Union
Battlefield surveillance radar vehicle
Huijboom, 2014



"All of the vehicles listed in Table 8, above, were produced in the Russian Federation, after the fall of the Soviet Union. None of these were in the Ukrainian government inventory prior to the outbreak of hostilities."

"Whether or not directly supplied by foreign governments, some arms and munitions have certainly entered Ukraine from foreign states. On July 3, the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP) reported that a Moldovan criminal figure, Ion Druta, had been involved in supplying the pro-Russian movement with SALW appropriated from Russian military. Druta spoke of being able to supply large quantities of AK type rifles. According to Druta, the weapons came from the Russian 14th Army, based in Transnistria (OCCRP, 2014). The undercover deal arranged by OCCRP reporters was rather more modest, however, consisting of an RPG-18 anti-tank system and a TT-33 pistol (Munteanu, 2014)."

"ARES has assessed that it is very likely that pro-Russian separatist forces have received some level of support from one or more external parties, however the level of state complicity in such activity remains unclear. Despite the presence of arms, munitions, and armoured vehicles designed, produced, and allegedly even sourced from Russia, there remains no direct evidence of Russian government complicity in the trafficking of arms into the area (Reuters, 2014c). The majority of arms and munitions documented in service with separatist forces have evidently been appropriated from the Ukrainian security forces and their installations within Ukraine."


Ukrainians are exterminating own citizens, own race, just like you do.
Wow, this is interesting. I got away with genocide. I must be some sort of God. Worship me puny Hrulj :whip:

[Methmatician]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576490/Are-Blackwater-active-Ukraine-Videos-spark-talk-U-S-mercenary-outfit-deployed-Donetsk.html
http://rt.com/news/158212-academi-blackwater-ukraine-military/
You've already posted this and they were already disproved.

http://rinf.com/alt-news/featured/u-s-taxpayers-now-alone-financing-ukraines-ethnic-cleansing-campaign/
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrainian-nazis-pay-private-military-company-academi-formerly-blackwater-for-training-russian-report/5422667
I give you credible sources and you give this conspiracy theorist crap?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/02/us-considers-providing-arms-to-ukraine-as-rebels-step-up-attacks-says-report
What is controversial about this? A sovereign nation is allowed to accept arms from another sovereign nation. This happens everywhere. Before the conflict they even bought military equipment from Russia.

[Empecinado]

What is controversial about this? A sovereign nation is allowed to accept arms from another sovereign nation. This happens everywhere. Before the conflict they even bought military equipment from Russia.

Ehhm not exactly. I'm specialized in International Law and this is definetely not a case of a sovereign state buying weapons in peace times, but a case of a foreign state wanting to give weapons to one of the sides in the context of a internal conflict. That's foreign intervention and theorically goes against international law. And in other similar cases (Yugoslavia, Ruanda, Haiti, Somalia, Liberia, etc) was even declared a international weapon embargo against these states.

[Methmatician]

disapproved by who circumcised vehabija?

ofcourse they are credible, what is it that you fail to understand muslim??Even your Ustaša buddies go over there to help Ukropi and are being PAID for it.The amount of money might sound ridiculous, but nevertheless.Paid is paid..

http://www.tportal.hr/vijesti/svijet/369510/Hrvati-u-Ukrajini-se-bore-u-privatnoj-tajkunskoj-vojsci.html

they go over there to exercise their own fascist hegemonism.
You can't even defend your claims so you just hop from one issue to the other while yelling insults that have nothing to do with me. Russia betrayed Ukraine yet you're talking about some Croats who went to fight in Ukraine.

[Methmatician]

Ehhm not exactly. I'm specialized in International Law and this is definetely not a case of a sovereign state buying weapons in peace times, but a case of a foreign state wanting to give weapons to one of the sides in the context of a internal conflict. That's foreign intervention and theorically goes against international law.
What law are you referring to?

[Methmatician]

you come up with argument that Russians are supplying separatists. I return with western paid militia that supports faschist government. SOoo where am I failing!?!?!?
You used tabloids and conspiracy theorist websites that have no credibility. I gave you a report by Armament Research who cited legitimate sources for their claims and a well known and confirmed document signed by Russia and a few Western countries including the US.

But that was never the issue. You asked how has Russia betrayed Ukraine and I showed you. You can ignore everything I write if you want, but it only loses your credibility as a reasonable person.

[Empecinado]

What law are you referring to?

It is not a law, but a basic principle of international order: Non-interventionism. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interventionism)

[Methmatician]

It is not a law, but a basic principle of international order: Non-interventionism. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interventionism)
If it's approved by the UN it would be legal by UN standards.

Chapter VII - Action with Respect to Threats to the Peace, Breaches of the Peace and Acts of Aggression (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Charter_of_the_United_Nations#Chapter_VII_-_Action_with_Respect_to_Threats_to_the_Peace.2C_Br eaches_of_the_Peace_and_Acts_of_Aggression)

[Methmatician]

What makes you think I care about anything you say????
In that case we're done here :focus:

[Methmatician]

no, you still fail to prove where Russia betrayed Ukraine.
I didn't fail to prove it, you just didn't read what I wrote. In your own words you said:

wall of irrelevant text which I do not intend to read

[Methmatician]

yet, you intentionally skip the Amnesty international report.

what a fucking hypocrite.
Unless the Amnesty International report says Russia is not involved in Ukraine then it is irrelevant.

[Methmatician]

so I take it you are a hypocrite.
For what reason? I gave you information that proves Russia has betrayed Ukraine and you said you weren't going to read it. That's not my fault, it's yours.

[Methmatician]

you are becoming boring.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?159759-No-Russian-Troops-in-Ukraine
I don't see any contradiction here. I said there are Russian troops in Ukraine in both threads. If you're going to argue with me at least attempt to put together a coherent thought.

[epirot]

There are strong parallels with Kosovo actually, when you think of it.

marginally, the correct parallels are :
Serbia - Russia
Bosnia - Ukraine
Crna Gora - Belarus
Croatia - Poland
Kosovo - Chechnya
Makedonia - Bulgaria
Slovenia - Czechoslovakia

think about it, heck the above is so good I must write it down.

[epirot]

you are becoming boring.


you can change almost anything to be something else but a balija .

[Empecinado]

If it's approved by the UN it would be legal by UN standards.

Chapter VII - Action with Respect to Threats to the Peace, Breaches of the Peace and Acts of Aggression (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Charter_of_the_United_Nations#Chapter_VII_-_Action_with_Respect_to_Threats_to_the_Peace.2C_Br eaches_of_the_Peace_and_Acts_of_Aggression)

Yes, by UN standards. But international law works based on precedents, principles and power rather than in codified laws.

[Methmatician]

Yes, by UN standards. But international law works based on precedents, principles and power rather than in codified laws.
In that case Russia has already set a precedent for selling weapons to a country to suppress insurgents (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/17/us-syria-russia-arms-idUSBREA0G0MN20140117). And if it's a power thing who would stop the world's only super power from doing so?

[Empecinado]

In that case Russia has already set a precedent for selling weapons to a country to suppress insurgents (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/17/us-syria-russia-arms-idUSBREA0G0MN20140117). And if it's a power thing who would stop the world's only super power from doing so?

True, but Russia did it because USA set up a precedent in other similar conflicts. Of course USA can do whatever they want as long they continue being the first world power, I critize them because have broken the old order leading us to a more dangerous and inestable world, and maybe to a new world war.

[Methmatician]

True, but Russia did it because USA set up a precedent in other similar conflicts. Of course USA can do whatever they want as long they continue being the first world power, I critize them because have broken the old order leading us to a more dangerous and inestable world, and maybe to a new world war.
So then why would Russia criticise America for thinking about selling arms to Ukraine while at the same time they are sending arms to Syria? If Russia thinks it's okay to send arms to Syria because America did it in earlier conflicts then they should be fine with America pondering the idea now.

[epirot]

So then why would Russia criticise America for thinking about selling arms to Ukraine while at the same time they are sending arms to Syria? If Russia thinks it's okay to send arms to Syria because America did it in earlier conflicts then they should be fine with America pondering the idea now.

there is a fundamental difference : USA finances to destroy existing countries, borders and economies, while Russia finances to retain existing countries, borders and economies. And of course USA invests 100 times the money that Russia spends for similar purposes.

[Methmatician]

there is a fundamental difference : USA finances to destroy existing countries, borders and economies, while Russia finances to retain existing countries, borders and economies. And of course USA invests 100 times the money that Russia spends for similar purposes.
Wtf? This is entirely false. Russia is financing a war that is splitting Ukraine apart. Russia also invaded and annexed Crimea. Where did you get the idea that Russia finances to retain existing countries and borders? The rebels in Syria AFAIK don't want to completely destroy Syria or take a piece of it, they want a change in government.

[Empecinado]

So then why would Russia criticise America for thinking about selling arms to Ukraine while at the same time they are sending arms to Syria? If Russia thinks it's okay to send arms to Syria because America did it in earlier conflicts then they should be fine with America pondering the idea now.

That hyprocresy happens continuosly in international relations, just look at how USA critize Russia involvement in Ukraine despite they were the first ones to get involved there.

[Methmatician]

That hyprocresy happens continuosly in international relations
Yeah, that's true.

just look at how USA critize Russia involvement in Ukraine despite they were the first ones to get involved there.
I don't quite understand by what you mean by the US being involved first. When do you think they got involved? And what did they do that would justify an invasion by Russia?

[Empecinado]

I don't quite understand by what you mean by the US being involved first. When do you think they got involved? And what did they do that would justify an invasion by Russia?

Since the first beginning, Maidan. And revolutions and coup d'etats usually have as consequence a territorial loss, in this case Russia reacted annexionating Crimea in order to not losing the base there.

[Sandman]

That hyprocresy happens continuosly in international relations, just look at how USA critize Russia involvement in Ukraine despite they were the first ones to get involved there.

Now that you're a hypocrite. United States does not attack the territory of Ukraine, do not kill the Ukrainians. Russia - yes.

[Empecinado]

Now that you're a hypocrite. United States does not attack the territory of Ukraine, do not kill the Ukrainians. Russia - yes.

Without USA messing around Ukraine nothing would have happened: Crimea would be still Ukrainian, no war, no killings.

[Siberyak]

Now that you're a hypocrite. United States does not attack the territory of Ukraine, do not kill the Ukrainians. Russia - yes.

Viktoria Nuland admits us government spent 5 billion dollars to "subvert Ukraine" whatever that means. The fact is the Jewnited states was involved in in this conflict as an instigator


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2fYcHLouXY

[Sandman]

Without USA messing around Ukraine nothing would have happened: Crimea would be still Ukrainian, no war, no killings.

You're wrong. Americans supported the European choice of Ukrainians. The alternative would be for Ukraine closer relationship with Russia, which is a state not for people.
More than 21 000 000 Russians living on less than 5 EUR per day, at the same time Russia is located on the second or third place in the world ranking of countries with the highest number of billionaires, but in terms of the amount of millionaires Russia is at the tail end. This means that we have to deal with the situation without precedent in the civilized world. Followed by an unprecedented polarization of wealth. A group of Kremlin billionaires and their associates robbery leads uninhibited state of 140 million people is. Huge country ruled by people who are not even able to dispose of the looted money. More than half of the population is not sufficiently feeds.

[Empecinado]

You're wrong. Americans supported the European choice of Ukrainians.

Ukrainians not were unanimously for the UE. They just supported the organized political groups pro-UE and against Russia, as happens in most revolutions that are made by small and ideologized groups with foreign support .


The alternative would be for Ukraine closer relationship with Russia, which is a state not for people.
More than 21 000 000 Russians living on less than 5 EUR per day, at the same time Russia is located on the second or third place in the world ranking of countries with the highest number of billionaires, but in terms of the amount of millionaires Russia is at the tail end. This means that we have to deal with the situation without precedent in the civilized world. Followed by an unprecedented polarization of wealth. A group of Kremlin billionaires and their associates robbery leads uninhibited state of 140 million people is. Huge country ruled by people who are not even able to dispose of the looted money. More than half of the population is not sufficiently feeds.

This is offtopic.

[Sandman]

Viktoria Nuland admits us government spent 5 billion dollars to "subvert Ukraine" whatever that means. The fact is the Jewnited states was involved in in this conflict as an instigator


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2fYcHLouXY
United States financial support for many countries, eg. Israel some countries in Asia. Russia supports e,g. Belarus. What's the big deal.

[Sandman]

This is offtopic.
Nope. Whether you would like to Spain came from the European Union and heading towards the Russian state model? Good luck with that.:thumbs up


Russia according to UN statistics is:
1st place in the world in terms of production and exports of natural gas (35% of world production)
1st place in the world in terms of natural resource wealth
1st place in the world in terms of resources and size of diamond exports
2nd place in the world in terms of diamond mining
2nd place in the world in terms of proven reserves of platinum
1st place in the world in terms of export volume of platinum
1st place in the world in terms of proven reserves of silver
2nd place in the world in terms of proven reserves of gold
1st place in the world in terms of proven reserves of coal (23% of world reserves)
1st place in the world in terms of forest resources (23% of the world's forests
1st place in the world in terms of drinking water supplies
1st place in the world in terms of resources sturgeon, crab, pollock in the 200-mile offshore economic zone
1st place in the world in terms of proven reserves of lead, zinc, titanium and niobium
1st place in the world in terms of export volume of nitrogen fertilizers
1st place in the world in terms of resources peat

A WHERE IS THE MONEY? !!

1st place in the world in terms of growth in dollar billionaires
2nd place in the world in terms of the number of dollar billionaires (in the US)
67 in the world in terms of standard of living
71 in the world in terms of development of human potential
72 in the world in terms of state spending on citizen
127 place in the world in terms of population health
111 in the world in terms of life expectancy
134 in the world in terms of life expectancy for men

AND AGAIN IN FRONT ACROSS THE PLANET:

1 in the world in terms of the number of suicides among the elderly, children and adolescents
1st place in the world in terms of divorce and the number of children born out of wedlock
1 in the world in terms of the number of abortions and the number of children abandoned by their parents
1st place in the world in terms of population decline in absolute numbers
1st place in the world in terms of consumption of alcohol and alcoholic beverages
1 in the world in terms of sales volume of liquor
1st place in the world in terms of sales of tobacco products
1 in the world in terms of the number who died of alcoholism and nicotine addiction
1st place in the world in terms of the collapse of diseases of the cardiovascular system
1st place in the world in terms of sales of counterfeit drugs
1st place in the world in terms of consumption of heroin (21% of world production)
1 in terms of the amount of air crashes
159 in terms of the level of political rights and freedoms.

[Empecinado]

Nope. Whether you would like to Spain came from the European Union and heading towards the Russian state model? Good luck with that.:thumbs

I'd like Spain to came back to the pre-EU state model ;) Anyway is not a thread to discuss about any models.

[Siberyak]

Nope. Whether you would like to Spain came from the European Union and heading towards the Russian state model? Good luck with that.:thumbs up


Russia according to UN statistics is:
1st place in the world in terms of production and exports of natural gas (35% of world production)
1st place in the world in terms of natural resource wealth
1st place in the world in terms of resources and size of diamond exports
2nd place in the world in terms of diamond mining
2nd place in the world in terms of proven reserves of platinum
1st place in the world in terms of export volume of platinum
1st place in the world in terms of proven reserves of silver
2nd place in the world in terms of proven reserves of gold
1st place in the world in terms of proven reserves of coal (23% of world reserves)
1st place in the world in terms of forest resources (23% of the world's forests
1st place in the world in terms of drinking water supplies
1st place in the world in terms of resources sturgeon, crab, pollock in the 200-mile offshore economic zone
1st place in the world in terms of proven reserves of lead, zinc, titanium and niobium
1st place in the world in terms of export volume of nitrogen fertilizers
1st place in the world in terms of resources peat

A WHERE IS THE MONEY? !!

1st place in the world in terms of growth in dollar billionaires
2nd place in the world in terms of the number of dollar billionaires (in the US)
67 in the world in terms of standard of living
71 in the world in terms of development of human potential
72 in the world in terms of state spending on citizen
127 place in the world in terms of population health
111 in the world in terms of life expectancy
134 in the world in terms of life expectancy for men

AND AGAIN IN FRONT ACROSS THE PLANET:

1 in the world in terms of the number of suicides among the elderly, children and adolescents
1st place in the world in terms of divorce and the number of children born out of wedlock
1 in the world in terms of the number of abortions and the number of children abandoned by their parents
1st place in the world in terms of population decline in absolute numbers
1st place in the world in terms of consumption of alcohol and alcoholic beverages
1 in the world in terms of sales volume of liquor
1st place in the world in terms of sales of tobacco products
1 in the world in terms of the number who died of alcoholism and nicotine addiction
1st place in the world in terms of the collapse of diseases of the cardiovascular system
1st place in the world in terms of sales of counterfeit drugs
1st place in the world in terms of consumption of heroin (21% of world production)
1 in terms of the amount of air crashes
159 in terms of the level of political rights and freedoms.

Sandman would you like Poland to go to the American state model?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/President_Barack_Obama.jpg

[Sandman]

I'd like Spain to came back to the pre-EU state model ;) Anyway is not a thread to discuss about any models.

You're really a hypocrite. I wonder why Hispanics do not storm the Russian border in search of a better life. America is for them, "Promised Land".
http://global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/fn-latino/lifestyle/sneakingBOOKSin.jpg

[Empecinado]

You're really a hypocrite. I wonder why Hispanics do not storm the Russian border in search of a better life. America is for them, "Promised Land".
http://global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/fn-latino/lifestyle/sneakingBOOKSin.jpg

I'm not talking about Russian or USA model, as I said this is not a thread to talk about it and I don't know why you call me a hypocrite.

[Sandman]

I'm not talking about Russian or USA model, as I said this is not a thread to talk about it and I don't know why you call me a hypocrite.
Because you criticize the US involvement in the affairs of Ukraine, and the fact that you do not see a strong Russian intervention, aimed at strategic control over the country.

[Empecinado]

Because you criticize the US involvement in the affairs of Ukraine, and the fact that you do not see a strong Russian intervention, aimed at strategic control over the country.

I critize the US involvement because 1. No country should intervene in other's affairs. 2. It has messed up the country. The Russian interventionism is a consequence of it, not a cause.

[Sandman]

Sandman would you like Poland to go to the American state model?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/President_Barack_Obama.jpg

The American system is not perfect. But there is more space for civil liberties. I am also more in keeping with the American perception of power, control, lack of confidence to the government. When I watch and hear what is the attitude of Russians to Putin that I want to vomit. Mongolian-slave full submissiveness and innate, reinforced by the propaganda is always ready to agree to absolute degradation by the authority.

[Sarmatian]

In that case Russia has already set a precedent for selling weapons to a country to suppress insurgents (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/17/us-syria-russia-arms-idUSBREA0G0MN20140117). And if it's a power thing who would stop the world's only super power from doing so?

These two cases are different. In case of Syria it's an invasion by terrorist organization from outside. In Ukraine it's strictly internal conflict with very few outsiders participating on both sides.

[Sarmatian]

The American system is not perfect. But there is more space for civil liberties. I am also more in keeping with the American perception of power, control, lack of confidence to the government. When I watch and hear what is the attitude of Russians to Putin that I want to vomit. Mongolian-slave full submissiveness and innate, reinforced by the propaganda is always ready to agree to absolute degradation by the authority.

So go vomit somewhere else already, your pukes here are not welcome.

[Leto]

The American system is not perfect. But there is more space for civil liberties. I am also more in keeping with the American perception of power, control, lack of confidence to the government. When I watch and hear what is the attitude of Russians to Putin that I want to vomit. Mongolian-slave full submissiveness and innate, reinforced by the propaganda is always ready to agree to absolute degradation by the authority.
You're a lunatic. The turnouts of the last presidential and legislative elections were 65.2% and 60.1%, respectively. 40-50% of them didn't vote for Putin. Hence, about 2/3 of all the eligible did NOT vote for Putin and his party.

[Sandman]

I critize the US involvement because 1. No country should intervene in other's affairs. 2. It has messed up the country. The Russian interventionism is a consequence of it, not a cause.

The Russian intervention started a lot earlier than the US involvement. Since 1992, Ukraine drifted toward Russia. Yanukovych under pressure from Russia broke with the pro-European course and wanted more strictly bind with Russia. But I have to mention here that the majority of Ukrainians do not want a union with Russia closer and wants to "Europeanize" the country.

[Leto]

But I have to mention here that the majority of Ukrainians do not want a union with Russia closer and wants to "Europeanize" the country.
They will never be considered part of the "West" anyway. Look at the countries of the former East bloc. They've been in NATO and the EU for more than a decade, yet they are still sort of secondary, not on an equal footing with Western Europe. That's an illusion.

[Sandman]

You're a lunatic. The turnouts of the last presidential and legislative elections were 65.2% and 60.1%, respectively. 40-50% of them didn't vote for Putin. Hence, about 2/3 of all the eligible did NOT vote for Putin and his party.
Support for Putin is about 85%. My collaborator, who is married to a Russian woman returned from Russia. I asked him what is the attitude ordinary Russians to Putin. He laughed and said, "These damn fools believe in him as God."

[Sandman]

They will never be considered part of the "West" anyway. Look at the countries of the former East bloc. They've been in NATO and the EU for more than a decade, yet they are still sort of secondary, not on an equal footing with Western Europe. That's an illusion.

For 50 years we were in Russian block. You should wait 50 years to west and central Europe became more: harmonized ".

[Leto]

For 50 years we were in Russian block. You should wait 50 years to west and central Europe became more: harmonized ".
You're so delusional. In 50 years Europe will not be the same, I'm not even sure if it will exist at all, given the current trends. Europe is in the process of Islamization and Africanization.

[Empecinado]

The Russian intervention started a lot earlier than the US involvement. Since 1992, Ukraine drifted toward Russia. Yanukovych under pressure from Russia broke with the pro-European course and wanted more strictly bind with Russia. But I have to mention here that the majority of Ukrainians do not want a union with Russia closer and wants to "Europeanize" the country.

It's normal Ukraine drifted towards Russia given its closeness and recent common past and ties, but anyway since then the CIA was involved too. What it's clear is that without US involvement, there would not be war nowadays.

[Sandman]

You're so delusional. In 50 years Europe will not be the same, I'm not even sure if it will exist at all, given the current trends. Europe is in the process of Islamization and Africanization.

Islamization and Africanisation does not apply to Poland. In Western Europe this process is in part due to the colonial past of Western countries. Poland has a very restrictive immigration laws. We will make an only exception for the Eastern Slavs, who are similar to us physically.
For sure we do not make mistakes of Western governments that put on immigration from Third World counting on cheap labor.

[Leto]

Islamization and Africanisation does not apply to Poland. In Western Europe this process is in part due to the colonial past of Western countries. Poland has a very restrictive immigration laws. We will make an only exception for the Eastern Slavs, who are similar to us physically.
For sure we do not make mistakes of Western governments that put on immigration counting on cheap labor.
I will invade your country.:action-smiley-043:

[Empecinado]

Islamization and Africanisation does not apply to Poland. In Western Europe this process is in part due to the colonial past of Western countries. Poland has a very restrictive immigration laws. We will make an only exception for the Eastern Slavs, who are similar to us physically.
For sure we do not make mistakes of Western governments that put on immigration from Third World counting on cheap labor.

Don't be so sure it won't affect your country. Here we had a very restrictive immigration laws and when some immigrant was found trying to enter was beaten up and throw to the other side of the fence by the soldiers patrolling the border. I remember was almost impossible to see a foreigner in the street. But after 1997, millions of Third World immigrants started to come. Even now with 25% of unemployement they continue coming.

[Sandman]

I will invade your country.:action-smiley-043:

I'm calling to the ministry of defense.:coffee:

[Leto]

I'm calling to the ministry of defense.:coffee:
Man, there is no escape, I'm a Mongol from Turan, but I can fit in Poland like a glove.:cool:

[Veneda]

Islamization and Africanisation does not apply to Poland. In Western Europe this process is in part due to the colonial past of Western countries. Poland has a very restrictive immigration laws. We will make an only exception for the Eastern Slavs, who are similar to us physically.
For sure we do not make mistakes of Western governments that put on immigration from Third World counting on cheap labor.

http://img5.demotywatoryfb.pl//uploads/201406/1401654027_mxvp6o_600.jpg

This mosque in Warsaw centre sponsored by Saudi Arabia is almost ready

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/1114285.html

[Sandman]

http://img5.demotywatoryfb.pl//uploads/201406/1401654027_mxvp6o_600.jpg

This mosque in Warsaw centre sponsored by Saudi Arabia is almost ready

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/1114285.html

To nie pierwszy meczet w Polsce. Nasi Tatarzy na Podlasiu maja swoje.

[epirot]

Wtf? This is entirely false. Russia is financing a war that is splitting Ukraine apart. Russia also invaded and annexed Crimea. Where did you get the idea that Russia finances to retain existing countries and borders? The rebels in Syria AFAIK don't want to completely destroy Syria or take a piece of it, they want a change in government.

You are becoming predictable, boring and increasingly unproductive. Work on this, or they will replace you with a new one.

[epirot]

I'd like Spain to came back to the pre-EU state model ;) Anyway is not a thread to discuss about any models.

Spain should be the leader in the Latin world. Spain is such a great culture.

[Methmatician]

You are becoming predictable, boring and increasingly unproductive.
http://i.qkme.me/3ohbqd.jpg

[Loki]

White people in Rhodesia didn't want to live in under Black rule so they separated and made their own republic. But there was no attempted genocide on White Rhodesians so it was simply them not wanting to answer to the new government.

White people were a small minority, and scattered all over Rhodesia. In Donbass, the opposers of the Kiev regime are localised, and mostly ethnic Russians. That area supported the previous pro-Russia government strongly in the elections. It's a country divided.

[glass]

1 in the world in terms of the number of suicides among the elderly, children and adolescents
1st place in the world in terms of divorce and the number of children born out of wedlock
1 in the world in terms of the number of abortions and the number of children abandoned by their parents
1st place in the world in terms of population decline in absolute numbers
1st place in the world in terms of consumption of alcohol and alcoholic beverages
1 in the world in terms of sales volume of liquor
1st place in the world in terms of sales of tobacco products
1 in the world in terms of the number who died of alcoholism and nicotine addiction
1st place in the world in terms of the collapse of diseases of the cardiovascular system
1st place in the world in terms of sales of counterfeit drugs
1st place in the world in terms of consumption of heroin (21% of world production)
1 in terms of the amount of air crashes
159 in terms of the level of political rights and freedoms.
It is not UN statistic, it is all cheap propaganda lie. Or you have a proper link:rolleyes:

[Zmey Gorynych]

Because you criticize the US involvement in the affairs of Ukraine, and the fact that you do not see a strong Russian intervention, aimed at strategic control over the country.
Empecinado understands very well what's going on. He simply has an aversion towards NATO/America (not saying it's not justified), just like you against Russia.

Your english has improved significantly. How come?


I critize the US involvement because 1. No country should intervene in other's affairs. 2. It has messed up the country. The Russian interventionism is a consequence of it, not a cause.
Even if the bolded part is true does it make it less of an intervention in foreign affairs, does it not make it a transgression of the first point you made in your post.


They will never be considered part of the "West" anyway. Look at the countries of the former East bloc. They've been in NATO and the EU for more than a decade, yet they are still sort of secondary, not on an equal footing with Western Europe. That's an illusion.
Let me see if I get this. Are you trying to say that these countries would be equals in a different block (perhaps one led by Russia) or maybe you want to say that Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, etc. were equals in the eastern block? Because in todays world the third way (the one Empecinado dreams of) is practically impossible particularly for small eastern european countries.

[epirot]

Even if the bolded part is true does it make it less of an intervention in foreign affairs, does it not make it a transgression of the first point you made in your post.


its like comparing buying "cheap" a piece of bread that you paid for (Russia in Crimea) to completely demolishing the bakery to the ground (USA to the rest of the world). Your logic is ridiculous. And funny thing is that this argument (Russians are no angels, ok Serbs might not have been angels, etc..) is perpetuated among the narration of the supposedly "moderate" opposition in the west. This kind of logic, is a method that provides the west with the "leftist" coverage to go on committing crimes across the world. All those are known tricks.

[epirot]

Let me see if I get this. Are you trying to say that these countries would be equals in a different block (perhaps one led by Russia) or maybe you want to say that Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, etc. were equals in the eastern block? Because in todays world the third way (the one Empecinado dreams of) is practically impossible particularly for small eastern european countries.

Bulgarians used to design rockets and space shafts back in the day. Now, they clean houses and delivering pizzas, quite some advancements right? Same holds true for Poland, Czech, etc... We used to have Bolek & Lolek back in the day even in capitalist Greece. What do we get from Poland now? Paint workers, or just cheap workers.
As long as you keep hating Russia, you keep hating yourself, and as long you keep hating yourselfs you are gonna be easy meat for the western hawks. Stupid.

[Zmey Gorynych]

its like comparing buying "cheap" a piece of bread that you paid for (Russia in Crimea) to completely demolishing the bakery to the ground (USA to the rest of the world). Your logic is ridiculous. And funny thing is that this argument (Russians are no angels, ok Serbs might not have been angels, etc..) is perpetuated among the narration of the supposedly "moderate" opposition in the west. This kind of logic, is a method that provides the west with the "leftist" coverage to go on committing crimes across the world. All those are known tricks.


Bulgarians used to design rockets and space shafts back in the day. Now, they clean houses and delivering pizzas, quite some advancements right? Same holds true for Poland, Czech, etc... We used to have Bolek & Lolek back in the day even in capitalist Greece. What do we get from Poland now? Paint workers, or just cheap workers.
As long as you keep hating Russia, you keep hating yourself, and as long you keep hating yourselfs you are gonna be easy meat for the western hawks. Stupid.
Spare me the bullshit analogies and the sentimental cartoon crap as the symbol of the good ol' days, Bolek and Lolek (dear Lord). Both countries (America and Russia) are thugs, what you try to tell me here is that for some reason people should like the thug from the east better. Tell us what's so great about Russia? What is this great alternative or like many times before countries would be changing one crap for another of a slightly different shade?

Hating Russia!? Listen here and listen good because I wont repeat it. I'm closer to russian culture and russian mindset than you will ever dream to be (and from what I understand that's something you crave badly). You have this silly notion of some spiritual unity with Russia/russians that you simply imagined. It's not real. The only thing you have in common with the russians is the hate for the West on which you blame all your problems.

[epirot]

Tell us what's so great about Russia? What is this great alternative or like many times before countries would be changing one crap for another of a slightly different shade?

uhmmmm not bombing other countries in the opposite meridian of the globe, just a wild guess here bro, lol. Isn't it great not to get bombed?



Hating Russia!? Listen here and listen good because I wont repeat it.
won't repeat it? You have been writing here like a freaking broken CD-player for I don't know how long. Repetition is your strongest point. As for my affiliation, I have the Serbian/south slavic culture and that's enough. I am more friendly to Poles than 99.99% of Greeks, but I won't lose any sleep in case some northern pro-euro trash does not like me. Naturally most Poles, Ukrainians that have met me, think I am great guy. So don't try to make this personal, won't work.
Also, there is absolutely no hatred for the west. This is something you must imagine in order to put things together in your head.

[Zmey Gorynych]

uhmmmm not bombing other countries in the opposite meridian of the globe, just a wild guess here bro, lol. Isn't it great not to get bombed?
I've never been bombed so I can't compare but the georgians and others might be able to give you an answer.


Naturally most Poles, Ukrainians that have met me, think I am great guy. So don't try to make this personal, won't work.
Also, there is absolutely no hatred for the west. This is something you must imagine in order to put things together in your head.
Yes, we're all great guys and everybody loves us and you're totally cool with the west.

[Empecinado]

Even if the bolded part is true does it make it less of an intervention in foreign affairs, does it not make it a transgression of the first point you made in your post.

It's still an intervention, but as a result of a prior one.

[epirot]

I've never been bombed so I can't compare but the georgians and others might be able to give you an answer.

Go visit a doctor. Cut the drugs. Seek professional help. Sorry but I can't help you here.

btw lets see what the not-so neutral anglophone wikipedia writes on the matter : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War



Georgia (country) Georgia

Georgian Armed Forces:
Killed: 169[15]
Wounded: 947[16]
MIA: 1[15]
POWs: 39[8]
Ministry of Internal Affairs:
Killed: 11[16]
Wounded: 227[16]
MIA: 3[16]
POWs: 10[8]



Russia Russia

Killed: 67[17]
Wounded: 283[18]
MIA: 3[18]
POWs: 12[19]

South Ossetia South Ossetia

POWs: 27[8]
Ministry of Defence:
Killed: 26[20]
Wounded: 69[21]
Ministry of Internal Affairs:
Killed: 6[22]

Abkhazia Abkhazia

Killed: 1[23]



So besides the fact that the Georgian criminals have killed a rather large number of Russian and Ossetian officers, the total # of deaths combined can be compared to the yearly car accidents in some remote country road. LMAO. I dont know if I must laugh or cry here.

No cowboy go search the deaths caused by the (numerous) western interventions. Can't wait to hear your next excuse! LOL

[epirot]

It's still an intervention, but as a result of a prior one.
The little cyco does understand that and will make anything in his powers to keep not understanding it. If the guy is close to Russians as he claims, most probably he suffers from self-loathing syndrome or autophobia.

[Zmey Gorynych]

Go visit a doctor. Cut the drugs. Seek professional help. Sorry but I can't help you here.

btw lets see what the not-so neutral anglophone wikipedia writes on the matter : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War



So besides the fact that the Georgian criminals have killed a rather large number of Russian and Ossetian officers, the total # of deaths combined can be compared to the yearly car accidents in some remote country road. LMAO. I dont know if I must laugh or cry here.

No cowboy go search the deaths caused by the (numerous) western interventions. Can't wait to hear your next excuse! LOL
Take the goggles off you dumb balkanite. Just because IYO 169 dead is not much doesn't mean that the rest of us should see Russia in a positive light. I understand that NATO invaded/bombed your country and you have a very good reason to dislike/hate them. All that being said a killer who killed less in the last few years isn't less of a killer. Do you get it, moron? Sprechen sie englisch? Am I getting through?


It's still an intervention, but as a result of a prior one.
OK, that makes it a fight for turf (influence, domination, all that crap) in which there are no rules and righteous sides.

[Empecinado]

OK which makes it a fight for turf (influence, domination, all that crap) in which there are no rules and righteous sides.

I don't believe in that bullcrap "good vs bad" when comes to this. I may sympatize with one side or think is more righteus as everyone does, but no way I think these one is "good" and the opposite is "bad". I have close relatives who have been involved wars and I know what's going on.

[epirot]

Take the goggles off you dumb balkanite. Just because IYO 169 dead is not much doesn't mean that the rest of us should see Russia in a positive light. I understand that NATO invaded/bombed your country and you have a very good reason to dislike/hate them. All that being said a killer who killed less in the last few years isn't less of a killer. Do you get it, moron? Sprechen sie englisch? Am I getting through?


OK, that makes it a fight for turf (influence, domination, all that crap) in which there are no rules and righteous sides.

You realize that you can't ridicule your self any further.... don't you