QUESTION TO THE SICILIAN MEMBERS: who do you feel is more friendly to you?

[Ventoforte]

Some people here are trying to pass the idea that Northern Italians hate the Sicilians and don't recognize them as full fledged Italians. Some swear they have seen Venetians roam the streets at night dressed in lederhosen and viking helmets, hunting down Sicilian children to feast with their flesh.

Therefore, what I want to ask the Sicilian members is: who do you feel is trolling you harder? Who do you feel is trying to indirectly associate you with non-European peoples and thus denying your being Italians?

Please refrain Sicilians "at heart", this goes out to the real thing, like Tiberio, Panormus, Bellona etc.

[allalor]

Some swear they have seen Venetians roam the streets at night dressed in lederhosen and viking helmets, hunting down Sicilian children to feast with their flesh.

Ahahahahaah

[Sikeliot]

I think a lot of people consider Sicilians to be Italian, the epitome of Italian, and consider northerners to be pseudo-Germans or something. I don't think northern Italians are seen as the epitome of Italian.

[Antimage]

I think a lot of people consider Sicilians to be Italian, the epitome of Italian, and consider northerners to be pseudo-Germans or something. I don't think northern Italians are seen as the epitome of Italian.

In USA maybe because most italians there are sicilian or other southern italian.

In Hungary we don't make difference between the two. Most hungarians don't even know that northern italy is different than south. Mostly because they don't care.

[Tooting Carmen]

I consider Sicilians to be Italian, the epitome of Italian, and consider northerners to be pseudo-Germans or something. I don't think northern Italians are seen as the epitome of Italian.

Fixed.

[allalor]

Fixed.

Yep :thumb001:

[alfieb]

I'm not voting, per instruction, as I've lived the majority of my life in the United States, but the correct answer is that tirruni are more friendly than pulintuni.

[Ventoforte]

I'm not voting, per instruction, as I've lived the majority of my life in the United States, but the correct answer is that tirruni are more friendly than pulintuni.
I don't know, maybe. But you're referring to a general attitude to strangers, and this is not the question.

[Tiberio]

The king of this crap is Sikeliot followed by alfieb, some corrupted MENA and Mn1 who really hates everything of Italy. (look at his answer in last comparison Naxos vs Giardini Naxos)

[Sikeliot]

The king of this crap is Sikeliot followed by alfieb, some corrupted MENA and Mn1 who really hates everything of Italy. (look at his answer in last comparison Naxos vs Giardini Naxos)

So just because someone has a different view than you, they are evil and have an agenda. They can't just have a different opinion, I guess??

[Porpolita]

Option 6: Italian-Americans from the east coast

[Sikeliot]

Option 6: Italian-Americans from the east coast

Except this is not true because none of us would say we are anything other than European American.

[alfieb]

The king of this crap is Sikeliot followed by alfieb, some corrupted MENA and Mn1 who really hates everything of Italy. (look at his answer in last comparison Naxos vs Giardini Naxos)

Leave me out of it, thanks.

I disagree with Sikeliot on most of his political rantings.

No-one speaks for me but me, and I only speak for myself.

[Sikeliot]

Leave me out of it, thanks.

I disagree with Sikeliot on most of his political rantings.


I have unique views not quite shared by anyone else, of course. But we do agree in a lot of ways on the phenotypes and that is enough for him, I guess! Ironically if you look at most of my recent threads, at least those with photos from western Sicily, features aside most of them have light eyes. So I am unsure what he is bitching about, but then again when do I ever know?

[Porpolita]

I have unique views not quite shared by anyone else, of course. But we do agree in a lot of ways on the phenotypes and that is enough for him, I guess! Ironically if you look at most of my recent threads, at least those with photos from western Sicily, features aside most of them have light eyes. So I am unsure what he is bitching about, but then again when do I ever know?

I think you are being very careful to post light Sicilians since you know that you will be accused of blackwashing otherwise

[alfieb]

I have unique views not quite shared by anyone else, of course. But we do agree in a lot of ways on the phenotypes and that is enough for him, I guess! Ironically if you look at most of my recent threads, at least those with photos from western Sicily, features aside most of them have light eyes. So I am unsure what he is bitching about, but then again when do I ever know?

But your agendas are clear as day. You don't like Spain, you don't like Northern Europe, and yet you try to appear as objective (and informed) when discussing Southern Italy, Greece, and Sicily, places you've never been to. So you disparage the Normans, you disparage the Spanish influence in the Mezzogiorno, etc.

While I often agree with you when it comes to phenotype and whatnot, I have no such complexes clouding my judgment.

[Sikeliot]

I think you are being very careful to post light Sicilians since you know that you will be accused of blackwashing otherwise

No, and here's why. I really do not care if they like what I post or not, I don't seek their approval. I post whatever I feel like, whether it offends or not.

[Sikeliot]

While I often agree with you when it comes to phenotype and whatnot, I have no such complexes clouding my judgment.

They don't cloud my judgment, because I have never found it difficult to admit things that were uncomfortable to me. Also I don't actually hate Spain.. I am thankful to not be considered a Spanish subject or to be descended from conquistadors, but I don't hate Spain in reality.

[alfieb]

They don't cloud my judgment, because I have never found it difficult to admit things that were uncomfortable to me. Also I don't actually hate Spain.. I am thankful to not be considered a Spanish subject or to be descended from conquistadors, but I don't hate Spain in reality.

Getting you to acknowledge that Sicilians are not Latinized Greeks used to be like pulling teeth. You've matured a bit, but you still have a ways to go.

[Sikeliot]

Getting you to acknowledge that Sicilians are not Latinized Greeks used to be like pulling teeth. You've matured a bit, but you still have a ways to go.

Well judging by that new study where 20% of Sicilian DNA is recently Middle Eastern, and double that for the Maltese -- 40% -- it is very clear we aren't Latinized Greeks, since they scored 0%. Even the Spanish sample scored some!

[alfieb]

I think half the sample were Trapanese and the other half were Syracusans, so I'd say W. Sicilian DNA is probably somewhere around 30%.

[Sikeliot]

Also this might be of interest. South Italians (the sample is Calabrese) are a bit more purely 'Neolithic' than are the Sicilians, who are in turn more so than the mainland Greeks sampled here. If Cretans and Dodecanese were sampled they'd be somewhere in the East Sicily range.

http://puu.sh/g7VUb.png



I think half the sample were Trapanese and the other half were Syracusans, so I'd say W. Sicilian DNA is probably somewhere around 30%.


My opinion is that Palermo and Agrigento have more Near Eastern ancestry than does a large part of Trapani based on results I have seen. But I think averaging Syracuse in with Trapani brought the average down, since Syracuse never was subject to much external settlement.

[Casandrinos]

Well judging by that new study where 20% of Sicilian DNA is recently Middle Eastern, and double that for the Maltese -- 40% -- it is very clear we aren't Latinized Greeks, since they scored 0%. Even the Spanish sample scored some!


Any link?

[Smeagol]

I'm pretty sure nobody is denying Sicilians are Europeans.

[Sikeliot]

Any link?

The Yamnaya one. It was in another thread.

[alfieb]

I'm pretty sure nobody is denying Sicilians are Europeans.

It's been a minority view for hundreds of years.

"L'Europa finisce a Napoli, e, per giunta, vi finisce abbastanza male. La Calabria, la Sicilia, tutto il resto è Africa"
- Creuze de Lesser (http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/creuze-de-lesser-augustin-francois/)

[Smeagol]

It's been a minority view for hundreds of years.

"L'Europa finisce a Napoli, e, per giunta, vi finisce abbastanza male. La Calabria, la Sicilia, tutto il resto è Africa"
- Creuze de Lesser (http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/creuze-de-lesser-augustin-francois/)

I'm talking about on this forum, since some Sicilian users seem to think that pointing out the fact that a small but significant percentage of Sicilians can look Middle-Eastern or North African means they aren't a European people.

[alfieb]

I'm talking about on this forum, since some Sicilian users seem to think that pointing out the fact that a small but significant percentage of Sicilians can look Middle-Eastern or North African means they aren't a European people.
I've encountered that view on Stormfront and on ABF but not here, no.

The "Sicilians are moors/niggers/arabs" view seems to be only one that is expressed rarely when trolling.

[Sikeliot]

I'm talking about on this forum, since some Sicilian users seem to think that pointing out the fact that a small but significant percentage of Sicilians can look Middle-Eastern or North African means they aren't a European people.

What bothers them is that the minority of Sicilians who can pass in those places is larger than that for most other Southern European groups (places with an equal proportion would be Malta, Calabria, Dodecanese and places like that). I think they feel, above all, some competition with Iberians to prove they are more European than them. But "European" has no meaning outside of a land mass, so I don't see why they care.

[Hithaeglir]

I have never heard anyone saying the opposite.Sicily is considered Italian and it is of course.

[Tiberio]

I'm talking about on this forum, since some Sicilian users seem to think that pointing out the fact that a small but significant percentage of Sicilians can look Middle-Eastern or North African means they aren't a European people.

Say significant percentage is to say falsities if you mean we have overlap with North Africans you're even more off road or probably you're accustomed to some Arab and North Africans posted on these forums.

[Shepherd]

I think a lot of people consider Sicilians to be Italian, the epitome of Italian, and consider northerners to be pseudo-Germans or something. I don't think northern Italians are seen as the epitome of Italian.

In the US, yes this is how it is

[Dylan]

I think a lot of people consider Sicilians to be Italian, the epitome of Italian, and consider northerners to be pseudo-Germans or something. I don't think northern Italians are seen as the epitome of Italian.

I think this opinion is a held by some groups, particularly among some Americans, but other groups surely think the exact opposite of this. The vast majority of Italian-Americans are Southern Italian and Sicilian and as a result, Americans see these populations as the main "prototype" of what a real Italian is, fit with all the stereotypes of having dark hair, tan skin, lazy, corrupt, etc.

Often times, Northern Italians do not fit these stereotypes. E.g. Very few people in America will think you're Italian if you have Blonde Hair or any other light features that are typical of Northern Italians.

[Dylan]

I'm not Sicilian, but I know that my Italian-American family members are not fans of Sicilians. They think Sicily is beautiful and they've visited it many times, but some of them have described Sicilians in their own words as "brutes" and "knife throwers" etc. These people in my family are of descent from Abruzzo and Marche and despite being half abruzzese are adamant that they are central and NOT southern Italians. (They refuse to admit that Abruzzo is Southern Italy).

[Ianus]

I think a lot of people consider Sicilians to be Italian, the epitome of Italian, and consider northerners to be pseudo-Germans or something. I don't think northern Italians are seen as the epitome of Italian.

Most of people thinks this thanks to Hollywood stereotypes.

[Sikeliot]

(They refuse to admit that Abruzzo is Southern Italy).

Abruzzo is not that genetically different from Sicily -- there is a moderate amount more Near Eastern admixture in Sicily than Abruzzo, but both are predominantly Neolithic Mediterranean people, and are related to one another, to other southern Italians and Greeks and so on.

[Ianus]

I'm not Sicilian, but I know that my Italian-American family members are not fans of Sicilians. They think Sicily is beautiful and they've visited it many times, but some of them have described Sicilians in their own words as "brutes" and "knife throwers" etc. These people in my family are of descent from Abruzzo and Marche and despite being half abruzzese are adamant that they are central and NOT southern Italians. (They refuse to admit that Abruzzo is Southern Italy).

Historically, geographically and culturally, Abruzzo is Southern Italian

[Tooting Carmen]

Members of Abruzzo Regional Council. Do they look more Sicilian or Venetian?
http://www.regione.abruzzo.it/portale/index.asp?modello=giunta&servizio=xList&stileDiv=mono&template=default&b=giunta

[Dylan]

Abruzzo is not that genetically different from Sicily -- there is a moderate amount more Near Eastern admixture in Sicily than Abruzzo, but both are predominantly Neolithic Mediterranean people, and are related to one another, to other southern Italians and Greeks and so on.

I agree that this is true of Abruzzo in general, but i should note that the village where my Abruzzese family comes from is in the heart of the Appenines at about 1,600 feet above sea level in a little village with about 500 people. (It used to be 1500 people about 100 years ago). I have a feeling that my family from this particular area didn't mix much with other Mediterranean groups because they lived in a place that was so extremely isolated. I should also note that my great-grandfather who came from there had pale skin and light blue eyes, which is very strange. My great grandmother who came from a less isolated area of Molise would certainly fit the Southern-Italian identity more accurately. But it is true Abruzzo is Southern Italy.

[Tooting Carmen]

Here is L'Aquila, the capital of Abruzzo. More Sicilian-looking or Venetian-looking?
http://www.comune.laquila.gov.it/pagina438_consiglieri-e-gruppi.html
http://www.comune.laquila.gov.it/pagina6_la-giunta.html

[Sikeliot]

If you removed the more exotic end of the Sicilian spectrum out, they would be close to Abruzzo I think. Also Abruzzese to me look something like Peloponnesian Greeks.

[Tooting Carmen]

If you removed the more exotic end of the Sicilian spectrum out, they would be close to Abruzzo I think. Also Abruzzese to me look something like Peloponnesian Greeks.

So what do you think of the links I just posted then?

[Dylan]

Here is L'Aquila, the capital of Abruzzo. More Sicilian-looking or Venetian-looking?
http://www.comune.laquila.gov.it/pagina438_consiglieri-e-gruppi.html
http://www.comune.laquila.gov.it/pagina6_la-giunta.html

Some people look more Northern and some look more southern. The Appenines isolates some areas so its difficult to pinpoint a single appearance that accurately resembles either Venetians or Sicilians. I would personally say that I saw more southern elements. (Overall probably more Sicilian looking)

[alfieb]

Historically, geographically and culturally, Abruzzo is Southern Italian
And Rieti area of Lazio was as well, but it is not considered such today.

Which is fine, because Rieti, like L'Aquila, was never genetically or linguistically Southern. They do not speak Neapolitan.

[Longbowman]

Members of Abruzzo Regional Council. Do they look more Sicilian or Venetian?
http://www.regione.abruzzo.it/portale/index.asp?modello=giunta&servizio=xList&stileDiv=mono&template=default&b=giunta

How can people who have never even been to Italy answer this question? Genetically they will be more similar to Sicilians.

[Longbowman]

Any link?

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

[Dylan]

I'm shocked by this poll. Every Northern Italian I know regards Sicily as if its the third world and not really Italian. And yet I'm the only person who voted that Northern Italians are denying Sicilians as Italians and Europeans. Am I simply surrounded by bigots?

[Ianus]

I'm shocked by this poll. Every Northern Italian I know regards Sicily as if its the third world and not really Italian. And yet I'm the only person who voted that Northern Italians are denying Sicilians as Italians and Europeans. Am I simply surrounded by bigots?

Stereotypes and campanilism, no one thinks they aren't europeans or Italians.

[Longbowman]

I'm shocked by this poll. Every Northern Italian I know regards Sicily as if its the third world and not really Italian. And yet I'm the only person who voted that Northern Italians are denying Sicilians as Italians and Europeans. Am I simply surrounded by bigots?

How many North Italians do you know? 0? 1? Vivi in Italia? Parli italiano? Sei andato mai in Italia?

[alfieb]

Lol. The kike is acting like he's big time because he lives in Venice for a few months.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I actually find the argument to be boring and irrelevant, but the level of condescension in this thread is off the charts.

[Dylan]

I'm not stereotyping. Every single Northern Italian I've met who has shared an opinion on Sicilians, simply didn't regard them as Italians. Obviously I haven't met many Northern Italians so that sample size is quite small.

3 from Venice. The rest are from Lombardy. Only 8 or 9. Obviously not a lot. But when you've heard 9 opinions on a topic and they all shared the same view, its pretty surprising to hear that its not common. As I said earlier, apparently my friends are bigots.

[Sikeliot]

I've had northern Italians tell me their older relatives were prejudiced against Sicilians and didn't regard them as European.

[Longbowman]

I'm not stereotyping. Every single Northern Italian I've met who has shared an opinion on Sicilians, simply didn't regard them as Italians. Obviously I haven't met many Northern Italians so that sample size is quite small.

3 from Venice. The rest are from Lombardy. Only 8 or 9. Obviously not a lot. But when you've heard 9 opinions on a topic and they all shared the same view, its pretty surprising to hear that its not common. As I said earlier, apparently my friends are bigots.

You met 3 Venetians in the US? Bullshit. As in, actually born and raised in Venice? Dubious at best. The population of this city is 60,000. Did you happen to meet a group of Lombards? It seems very unlikely you have nine friends from Northern Italy.


Lol. The kike is acting like he's big time because he lives in Venice for a few months.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I actually find the argument to be boring and irrelevant, but the level of condescension in this thread is off the charts.

Half a year and counting, which is not much less than the time you've lived here.

[Dylan]

How many North Italians do you know? 0? 1? Vivi in Italia? Parli italiano? Sei andato mai in Italia?

And no I do not speak Italian. But i know it well enough to understand what you're saying. I don't live in Italy. I don't speak Italian. I have not been to Italy. But I have quite a few friends who are international students from Italy at my college in the US. All of whom are from Northern Italy. I have Italian family living in mostly central Italy but also in Ferrara as well which is nearly northern italy. I hold no opinion on the matter myself. I'm only repeating those of people who were born in italy, raised in italy, and speak Italian.

[Ulla]

I'm not stereotyping. Every single Northern Italian I've met who has shared an opinion on Sicilians, simply didn't regard them as Italians. Obviously I haven't met many Northern Italians so that sample size is quite small.

3 from Venice. The rest are from Lombardy. Only 8 or 9. Obviously not a lot. But when you've heard 9 opinions on a topic and they all shared the same view, its pretty surprising to hear that its not common. As I said earlier, apparently my friends are bigots.

Bullshits.


Historically, geographically and culturally, Abruzzo is Southern Italian

Abruzzo geographically is central Italy. Altrimenti anche il Lazio è sud Italia geograficamente.


You met 3 Venetians in the US? Bullshit. As in, actually born and raised in Venice? Dubious at best. The population of this city is 60,000. Did you happen to meet a group of Lombards? It seems very unlikely you have nine friends from Northern Italy.

Stai proprio a Venezia? Intendo nel centro storico.

[alfieb]

Half a year and counting, which is not much less than the time you've lived here.

Continuously, sure. I only lived there from 2006-08 as an adult.

But it's not as though I didn't spend time in Palermo as a kid. Comes with having immigrant parents and half your family still being back there.

I don't claim to be an authority on the subject, though, whereas you do, in the comfortable confines of your little island in the extreme Northeast.

[Ianus]

Abruzzo geographically is central Italy. Altrimenti anche il Lazio è sud Italia geograficamente.

Vero, ma per motivi storici e culturali è nel Mezzogiorno.

[Dylan]

You met 3 Venetians in the US? Bullshit. As in, actually born and raised in Venice? Dubious at best. The population of this city is 60,000. Did you happen to meet a group of Lombards? It seems very unlikely you have nine friends from Northern Italy.



Half a year and counting, which is not much less than the time you've lived here.

Yes 3 Venetians. (One of them was Jewish though, so I don't know if that counts as proper Italian to you). I'm using the word "friends" roughly. My first roommate was Venetian and he quickly made friends with all of the Italians at my college who I also became friends with through him.

We talked about it like once, and just about everyone of them was saying that. Maybe they weren't serious. Maybe some disagreed, but went along with the group. Whatever.

Also, if you want to save yourself from looking like an arrogant, condescending, jerk. Could you please explain what I said, made you act this way? We all have bad days.

[Longbowman]

Stai proprio a Venezia? Intendo nel centro storico.

San Polo, due minuti da Rialto :)

[Ulla]

Vero, ma per motivi storici e culturali è nel Mezzogiorno.

Si, per motivi storici, culturali e anche etnografici l'Abruzzo è senz'altro sud Italia. Anche se per alcune aree dell'Abruzzo si potrebbe forse anche parlare di zone di transizione tra centro Italia e sud Italia.

[Longbowman]

Continuously, sure. I only lived there from 2006-08 as an adult.

But it's not as though I didn't spend time in Palermo as a kid. Comes with having immigrant parents and half your family still being back there.

I don't claim to be an authority on the subject, though, whereas you do, in the comfortable confines of your little island in the extreme Northeast.

I claim to know what people look like here, yeah. I also live, learn and study with terroni.


Yes 3 Venetians. (One of them was Jewish though, so I don't know if that counts as proper Italian to you). I'm using the word "friends" roughly. My first roommate was Venetian and he quickly made friends with all of the Italians at my college who I also became friends with through him.

We talked about it like once, and just about everyone of them was saying that. Maybe they weren't serious. Maybe some disagreed, but went along with the group. Whatever.

Venetian Ghetto stronk. I think perhaps they weren't serious.

[Dylan]

Bullshits.



Abruzzo geographically is central Italy. Altrimenti anche il Lazio è sud Italia geograficamente.



Stai proprio a Venezia? Intendo nel centro storico.

My roommate last year was Venetian and I met his family and friends.

[Longbowman]

My roommate last year was Venetian and I met his family and friends.

Where in Venice?

[Dylan]

I claim to know what people look like here, yeah. I also live, learn and study with terroni.



Venetian Ghetto stronk. I think perhaps they weren't serious.

good to know. thanks for the response.

[Ulla]

Continuously, sure. I only lived there from 2006-08 as an adult.

But it's not as though I didn't spend time in Palermo as a kid. Comes with having immigrant parents and half your family still being back there.

I don't claim to be an authority on the subject, though, whereas you do, in the comfortable confines of your little island in the extreme Northeast.

Se hai passato tutto questo tempo in Italia come mai Longbowman scrive in Italiano meglio di te? Non sarà solito merito di google traduttore.

[Dylan]

Where in Venice?

I don't know, probably the Jewish section since he's Jewish, but I'm not even sure if that exists anymore since i know very little about Venice.

[Ulla]

San Polo, due minuti da Rialto :)

Accipicchia, praticamente vivi dentro il leone di San Marco. :)

Frequenti una scuola di Italiano? O la tua università organizza session in Italia?

[Longbowman]

I don't know, probably the Jewish section since he's Jewish, but I'm not even sure if that exists anymore since i know very little about Venice.

I doubt he lived in the Ghetto, it's tiny. He'd have gone to synagogue there, apart from that it's just museums and restaurants and a small campo.

[alfieb]

1) Io non uso di google traduttore?
2) Immersion.
3) Sette anni è un tempo lungo.

[Ulla]

1) Io non uso di google traduttore?
2) Immersion.
3) Sette anni è un tempo lungo.

In casa parlate italiano? Voglio dire, i tuoi genitori parlano italiano? Perché questo in genere aiuta.

[Era]

My roommate last year was Venetian and I met his family and friends.

I agree with you, Italians of the center and North in Italy look down upon Sicilians and are better of economically than them. However I have seen Sicilians here in the US do better than other Italians, mind you white collar job like investment banking and journalism. So individually they are pretty smart but as a society they have trouble prospering ( much like a certain neighbor of theirs , lol )

[Longbowman]

Accipicchia, praticamente vivi dentro il leone di San Marco. :)

Frequenti una scuola di Italiano? O la tua università organizza session in Italia?

Sto partecipando al programma erasmus, e sto frequentando Ca' Foscari quest'anno :)

[alfieb]

I agree with you, Italians of the center and North in Italy look down upon Sicilians and are better of economically than them. However I have seen Sicilians here in the US do better than other Italians, mind you white collar job like investment banking and journalism. So individually they are pretty smart but as a society they have trouble prospering ( much like a certain neighbor of theirs , lol )

I disagree. Sicilians do no differently in the USA than other Italians do. Any disproportionately high level of success is purely coincidental.

[Ulla]

Sto partecipando nell programma erasmus, e sto frequentando Ca' Foscari quest'anno :)

Ah, ecco. Certo sei inglese, non americano. :) Quindi vivi a un passo da Ca' Foscari.

[Era]

I disagree. Sicilians do no differently in the USA than other Italians do. Any disproportionately high level of success is purely coincidental.

Probably. Maybe it's because there's more Sicilians than other Italians here also. But my personal experience has been that.

Anyway his point is true, north Italians look down on terroni...

[alfieb]

Probably. Maybe it's because there's more Sicilians than other Italians here also. But my personal experience has been that.

I think there are more Neapolitans, and then Sicilians, (Southern) Apulians, and Calabrians, in that order. But yeah, it's definitely meridio-centric.

[Longbowman]

Ah, ecco. Certo sei inglese, non americano. :) Quindi vivi a un passo da Ca' Foscari.

Non avrei pensato che gli statunitensi potessero partecipare al programma, ma mia ragazza studia con un americano che dice di essere di Erasmus.

Vivo tipo 4 minuti dal edificio universitario piu vicino, che sarebbe Ca' Bottacin, ma purtroppo 15 minuti e alcune delle parte piu vulnerabili all'Acqua Alta da San Basilio, in cui accadono la maggior parte delle mie lezioni :(

[Era]

Non avrei pensato che gli statunitensi potessero partecipare al programma, ma mia ragazza studia con un americano che dice di essere di Erasmus.

Vivo tipo 4 minuti dal edificio universitario piu vicino, che sarebbe Ca' Bottacin, ma purtroppo 15 minuti e alcune delle parte piu vulnerabili all'Acqua Alta da San Basilio, in cui accadono la maggior parte delle mie lezioni :(

tipo 4 minuti :) sei proprio italiano tu ;)

[Black Wolf]

I have heard it plenty of times that Northern Italians tend to look down on the Southerners. The thing is though when most people think of Italians they think of Southerners especially in North America since the majority of Italians in North America have ancestors that came from the South.

[Tiberio]

Si, per motivi storici, culturali e anche etnografici l'Abruzzo è senz'altro sud Italia. Anche se per alcune aree dell'Abruzzo si potrebbe forse anche parlare di zone di transizione tra centro Italia e sud Italia.

L'Abruzzo è transizione tra centro e sud secondo me, anche e soprattutto per motivi geografici.

[Ulla]

Non avrei pensato che gli statunitensi potessero partecipare al programma, ma mia ragazza studia con un americano che dice di essere di Erasmus.

L'Erasmus dovrebbe essere aperto solo agli europei perché è finanziato dell'Unione Europea. Gli americani in genere in italia vengono a fare le session all'estero delle loro università, però è possibile che siano stati stipulati altri accordi, non saprei.

O come è probabile che l'americano che studia con la tua ragazza partecipi all'Erasmus come studente di un'altra università europea, magari in UK o in Irlanda.

[Longbowman]

L'Erasmus dovrebbe essere aperto solo agli europei perché è finanziato dell'Unione Europea. Gli americani in genere in italia vengono a fare le session all'estero delle loro università, però è possibile che siano stati stipulati altri accordi, non saprei.

O come è probabile che l'americano che studia con la tua ragazza partecipi all'Erasmus come studente di un'altra università europea, magari in UK o in Irlanda.

Sarebbe cosi, hai ragione.

Conoscevo un paio di ragazzi inglesi dall'universita di Warwick che erano parte di un gruppo di 40 che ha passato un semestre qua studiano la storia dell'arte, fuori dall programma erasmus. Ma normalmente i questi studenti non parlano nemmeno una parola di italiano.

[Dylan]

If you removed the more exotic end of the Sicilian spectrum out, they would be close to Abruzzo I think. Also Abruzzese to me look something like Peloponnesian Greeks.
This is an interesting comparison. Chieti was founded by Arcadians from the center of the Peloponnesian peninsula. Obviously that was quite a while ago, but Abruzzo being so isolated hasn't had hardly any mixture with other populations as far as I know. Maybe some Abruzzese are a combination of Italic-Greek elements.

[Sikeliot]

This is an interesting comparison. Chieti was founded by Arcadians from the center of the Peloponnesian peninsula. Obviously that was quite a while ago, but Abruzzo being so isolated hasn't had hardly any mixture with other populations as far as I know. Maybe some Abruzzese are a combination of Italic-Greek elements.

Greeks and pre-Greek southern Italians would have been genetically similar for the most part.

[Piccolo]

I have heard it plenty of times that Northern Italians tend to look down on the Southerners. The thing is though when most people think of Italians they think of Southerners especially in North America since the majority of Italians in North America have ancestors that came from the South.

I think that is a good point. Hollywood movies about Italians are invariably about Italian-Americans, who are mostly Southerners. These movies are often gangster films so that probably colors how people view Italians.

My understanding is that the modern North vs. South issue in Italy is not about supposed ethnic differences between North and South Italians but about economics. The Northern regions being wealthier, people from that area sometimes resent subsidizing the Southern regions.

Americans are probably the people most beset with this North vs. South dichotomy. I was listening to the audio commentary on the Goodfellas DVD and Italian-American author Nicholas Pileggi says that Southern Italians were treated like indentured servants by wealthy Northerners and that Northerners believed Southern Italians to be "Tunisians."

I am not sure where this narrative came from, but it is sometimes repeated by Italian-Americans and non-Europeans who want to troll Italians.

[Sikeliot]

I've always said that under the right conditions, Sicilians are just as smart as their Ashkenazi cousins. :)

[allalor]

I'm shocked by this poll. Every Northern Italian I know regards Sicily as if its the third world and not really Italian. And yet I'm the only person who voted that Northern Italians are denying Sicilians as Italians and Europeans. Am I simply surrounded by bigots?

Here we go again with this bullshit...:picard2:

[Virtuous]

Nabatea is the friendliest to me. He's my nigga.

[Longbowman]

Nabatea is the friendliest to me. He's my nigga.

He's just showing brotherly love to a fellow Levantine, don't be silly.

[Virtuous]

He's just showing brotherly love to a fellow Levantine, don't be silly.

He's like a little teddybear, isn't he.

[Tiberio]

Here we go again with this bullshit...:picard2:

C'mon bro, this guy can't be really Italian, I guess he's a sock puppet of someone.

[alfieb]

C'mon bro, this guy can't be really Italian, I guess he's a sock puppet of someone.

He has the right opinions so he is safe.

[Sikeliot]

Dylan? He is American, he is not Italian and never pretended he was from Italy. He is 1/4 Italian and mostly French.

[Sikeliot]

He has the right opinions so he is safe.

If it was about opinions, half of the users here would not be. It's always based on behavior when people get banned.

[Tiberio]

An abruzzese who feel more northern Italian than southern Italian is ludicrous to me. Just in Us this can happen.

[Sikeliot]

An abruzzese who feel more northern Italian than southern Italian is ludicrous to me. Just in Us this can happen.

When did he say that they did? I think you're reading something into his posts that is not there.

[Dylan]

Here we go again with this bullshit...:picard2:

Look, the few people I've met (Mostly friends/acquaintances and some older family members), felt that way. It has since been cleared up that they were either joking or a poor representation of reality. This would be the reason why I asked whether the people I had met were simply bigots or if this was normal. If I had framed that in the form of an answer then that would be pretty bullshit, but I framed it within the form of a question because I am not very familiar with this subject and would like others to explain it. Give me a break....

[Tiberio]

Look, the few people I've met (Mostly friends/acquaintances and some older family members), felt that way. It has since been cleared up that they were either joking or a poor representation of reality. This would be the reason why I asked whether the people I had met were simply bigots or if this was normal. If I had framed that in the form of an answer then that would be pretty bullshit, but I framed it within the form of a question because I am not very familiar with this subject and would like others to explain it. Give me a break....

Allalor is full Abruzzese and he considers what your family said a real crap. No offence but I've never seen an Abruzzese in my life who feel a northern Italian and dislike a southern. Maybe in Us is different but Americans can speak for their knowledge not for Italians.

[Dylan]

Dylan? He is American, he is not Italian and never pretended he was from Italy. He is 1/4 Italian and mostly French.

Jesus, I never thought I'd get such aggressive responses from an honest unassuming question. Clearly I don't claim to be an authority at any level on this topic. If you think that what I had previously been exposed to is true/false then feel free to share what you know. Clearly it was false.

[Dylan]

I doubt he lived in the Ghetto, it's tiny. He'd have gone to synagogue there, apart from that it's just museums and restaurants and a small campo.

He's not religious so you're probably right.

[Dylan]

Allalor is full Abruzzese and he considers what your family said a real crap. No offence but I've never seen an Abruzzese in my life who feel a northern Italian and dislike a southern. Maybe in Us is different but Americans can speak for their knowledge not for Italians.

The people who said this are all my grandmother and her family who are all really old. They're from Abruzzo and Marche (Fano), but Marche still isn't northern. It probably has something to do with the personalities of these individual family members or being immigrants from Italy. But I'm not sure.

Also I don't think I ever said anything about my relatives feeling more northern than southern from Abruzzese. I can't even find a quote from me mentioning it, but I probably said something on this topic. My grandmother who is Abruzzese and now lives in America denies that Abruzzo is Southern Italy and says its central. Not Northern. I don't think she feels more northern than southern, she just has some prejudices towards what she regards as southern italians. (She's described Sicilians and Neopolitans as brutes and knife throwers). But she was happy when she found out my girlfriend was Sicilian-American, so its obviously not anything huge.

[alfieb]

I would agree with your grandmother. Your family is Central Italian.

[Sikeliot]

I think of Abruzzo as central-southern.

[Tiberio]

Abruzzo is a transitional region but 800 years of Kingdom with the South is the most important part of their history.

[Sikeliot]

I mean genes and phenotype. They are slightly more northern than Sicilians.

[Tooting Carmen]

I mean genes and phenotype. They are slightly more northern than Sicilians.

Did you have a look at the links from Abruzzo I posted? What did you think?

[Tiberio]

I mean genes and phenotype. They are slightly more northern than Sicilians.

Geography and climate also, but it describes very well the genetic cline of Italy. I think a northern Campanian and a north Apulian is more close to them.

[Era]

I mean genes and phenotype. They are slightly more northern than Sicilians.

lol

[Sikeliot]

lol

Why is that funny?

[Sikeliot]

Did you have a look at the links from Abruzzo I posted? What did you think?

Consistent with my post above.

[Era]

Why is that funny?

Because it's not the first thing that comes to mind when you say "I think of them as so and so".

[allalor]

Look, the few people I've met (Mostly friends/acquaintances and some older family members), felt that way. It has since been cleared up that they were either joking or a poor representation of reality. This would be the reason why I asked whether the people I had met were simply bigots or if this was normal. If I had framed that in the form of an answer then that would be pretty bullshit, but I framed it within the form of a question because I am not very familiar with this subject and would like others to explain it. Give me a break....

Well I'm sorry if I was too direct but I'm kind of tired of hearing again and again the same story. Yes, there're racist and xenophobic Italians and yes Southern Italians (including Abruzzese) were discriminated against by Northerners during the '60s when we were called "terroni" (landworkers) or "mangia savun" (soap eaters), but it's simply untrue stating that today Sicilians are considered to be non-Italian.
These friends of yours were, without a doubt, joking about it.

[Sikeliot]

It's older northerners who would likely see Sicilians as non Italian or lesser than not young people.

[Sideritis]

This north and south joking around happen in all countries. Is hypocrisy to claim otherwise.
Few example ;Sweden : South swede have funny accents and some considers them Danes:p. Germany: Norths make fun of Bavarians and consider them different

[alfieb]

This north and south joking around happen in all countries. Is hypocrisy to claim otherwise.

In some countries it is East vs. West, in others North vs. South, but there is usually such a rivalry.

Within Sicily it is East/West.

[Dylan]

This north and south joking around happen in all countries. Is hypocrisy to claim otherwise.

No one has claimed otherwise.

[Sikeliot]

In some countries it is East vs. West, in others North vs. South, but there is usually such a rivalry.

Within Sicily it is East/West.

I have both. Haven't decided where my loyalty is yet!

[Sideritis]

No one has claimed otherwise.

It actually felt that we had a special case in here.

[alfieb]

I have both. Haven't decided where my loyalty is yet!

Sure you have. You associate mostly with your Greekness and said you consider Taormina your ancestral home.

[Sideritis]

In some countries it is East vs. West, in others North vs. South, but there is usually such a rivalry.

Within Sicily it is East/West.

Yeah I was going to say that. And within the south, north, west and east there is rivalary according to regions, cities, villages, names etc.

[Sikeliot]

Sure you have. You associate mostly with your Greekness and said you consider Taormina your ancestral home.

But I also call myself a Phoenician sometimes too. And a southern Italian.

[Sideritis]

Sure you have. You associate mostly with your Greekness and said you consider Taormina your ancestral home.

I wrote it on another post. This is the add a greek comp show in some countries ( Albania included) about a product of theirs. :p lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUrTHar0xnM

[Tiberio]

In some countries it is East vs. West, in others North vs. South, but there is usually such a rivalry.

Within Sicily it is East/West.

Palermo vs Catania is the most rivalry. Messina vs Catania is north vs south though.

[Tiberio]

Is Sikeliot's family really from Taormina?Because my father side is from Giardini Naxos who's at two minutes of car. xD

[allalor]

The people who said this are all my grandmother and her family who are all really old. They're from Abruzzo and Marche (Fano), but Marche still isn't northern. It probably has something to do with the personalities of these individual family members or being immigrants from Italy. But I'm not sure.

Also I don't think I ever said anything about my relatives feeling more northern than southern from Abruzzese. I can't even find a quote from me mentioning it, but I probably said something on this topic. My grandmother who is Abruzzese and now lives in America denies that Abruzzo is Southern Italy and says its central. Not Northern. I don't think she feels more northern than southern, she just has some prejudices towards what she regards as southern italians. (She's described Sicilians and Neopolitans as brutes and knife throwers). But she was happy when she found out my girlfriend was Sicilian-American, so its obviously not anything huge.

About your grandma, where did she come from? It really matters.

My family for example comes from a little village in the mountains that borders Molise and that's crossed by a "tratturo", an ancient road used, back in the days, by Abruzzese shepherds leading their flocks to Apulia. Transhumance left a huge impact on the village and its people in society, culture and language, and as a consequence of that I feel closer to Apuliese or Molisani or Lucanians than to Marchesans, even though I was born in Pescara.
On the other hand we have another abruzzese on this forum, Foxxy, who feels more in tune (correggimi se sbaglio Foxxy) with Central Italians than to Southern Italians 'cause she comes from l'Aquila province next to Latium.

Abruzzo is neither a totally Central nor a totally Southern region, and as a matter of fact we define ourselves "centro-meridionali" more than anything.

[alfieb]

Palermo vs Catania is the most rivalry. Messina vs Catania is north vs south though.

You are correct. Then again I think Catania is more Central than Southern. It is easier to get to Catania from Messina than from Modica, and Catania was split between Val di Noto and Val Demone.

I think of Syracuse as the only city that is truly in Southern Sicily.

[Sikeliot]

Is Sikeliot's family really from Taormina?Because my father side is from Giardini Naxos who's at two minutes of car. xD

One side was. Another had roots in Messina and another just outside Palermo.

[Tiberio]

You are correct. Then again I think Catania is more Central than Southern. It is easier to get to Catania from Messina than from Modica, and Catania was split between Val di Noto and Val Demone.

I think of Syracuse as the only city that is truly in Southern Sicily.

Yes although Siracusa is not a big city nowadays. Ragusa is another city but not that big there.

[Tiberio]

One side was. Another had roots in Messina and another just outside Palermo.

So basically like me.

[alfieb]

Yes although Siracusa is not a big city nowadays. Ragusa is another city but not that big there.

I believe in terms of population it is Palermo (by a huge margin) and then Catania, then Messina, and then Syracuse. No other cities with over 100000 residents.

[Sikeliot]

So basically like me.

What if we are related??

[Dylan]

About your grandma, where did she come from? It really matters.

My family for example comes from a little village in the mountains that borders Molise and that's crossed by a "tratturo", an ancient road used, back in the days, by Abruzzese shepherds leading their flocks to Apulia. Transhumance left a huge impact on the village and its people in society, culture and language, and as a consequence of that I feel closer to Apuliese or Molisani or Lucanians than to Marchesans, even though I was born in Pescara.
On the other hand we have another abruzzese on this forum, Foxxy, who feels more in tune (correggimi se sbaglio Foxxy) with Central Italians than to Southern Italians 'cause she comes from l'Aquila province next to Latium.

Abruzzo is neither a totally Central nor a totally Southern region, and as a matter of fact we define ourselves "centro-meridionali" more than anything.

Pescosansonesco and later Chieti, but in the US for most of her life. I never met her parents since they died before I was born, but I know they were the ones who influenced her to have these minor prejudices through what my mom tells me. I know she had at least one grandmother from Molise and her father was from Marche. I still have family living in Marche and also one family member in Ferrara, but I don't think I have any remaining family left in Abruzzo.

and sorry about my earlier question. I can understand how you feel about this since people often talk a similar way about white americans in relation to african-americans. It can be very annoying when some Europeans act like all my ancestors owned slaves when none of them even lived in the US during that time period, let alone be that 1% of the population that was actually rich enough to do that. Although this obviously much different, it has similar qualities.

[Tiberio]

What if we are related??

It could be the right time you can visit Sicily with me, Panormus and Bellona.

[Sikeliot]

What if you all make fun of me? I'm swarthy and you're all light :/

[Longbowman]

What if you all make fun of me? I'm swarthy and you're all light :/

If they make fun of you it won't be for that. Italy isn't Latin America (or indeed the US of America), they don't make fun of darker people.

[glicine max]

Members of Abruzzo Regional Council. Do they look more Sicilian or Venetian?
http://www.regione.abruzzo.it/portale/index.asp?modello=giunta&servizio=xList&stileDiv=mono&template=default&b=giunta
mi viene difficile non dire sicilia considerando che d'alfonso c'ha proprio quella faccia da democristiano siculo anni 80' invischiato con la mafia

[Peter Nirsch]

Sicilians are proud of their Ancient Greek and Arab past. Though nowadays they consider themselves Italians.

[Ctwentysevenj]

Sicilians are proud of their Ancient Greek and Arab past. Though nowadays they consider themselves Italians.

I don't know about the Arab past, as they had a minor contribution. Maybe more proud of their Norman past.

[Alessio]

The correct answer is that everyone hates one another and is full of envy from north to south. :icon12:

[Alessio]

If they make fun of you it won't be for that. Italy isn't Latin America (or indeed the US of America), they don't make fun of darker people.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FStzI8BTFAE

[Sikeliot]

I don't know about the Arab past, as they had a minor contribution. Maybe more proud of their Norman past.

Some Sicilians are proud of Arab contributions, others not. Those who are often the most proud of the Normans are those who hate Islam, but not all (alfieb is an exception, he is proud of the Normans but not ashamed of the Arab period).

I never feel any connection to the Normans or to the Crusades until I read about Islamic extremism and then I am kind of thankful.

[dawson]

I agree that this is true of Abruzzo in general, but i should note that the village where my Abruzzese family comes from is in the heart of the Appenines at about 1,600 feet above sea level in a little village with about 500 people. (It used to be 1500 people about 100 years ago). I have a feeling that my family from this particular area didn't mix much with other Mediterranean groups because they lived in a place that was so extremely isolated. I should also note that my great-grandfather who came from there had pale skin and light blue eyes, which is very strange. My great grandmother who came from a less isolated area of Molise would certainly fit the Southern-Italian identity more accurately. But it is true Abruzzo is Southern Italy.

An Abruzzese with light eyes is not a big deal..

[dawson]

I'm shocked by this poll. Every Northern Italian I know regards Sicily as if its the third world and not really Italian. And yet I'm the only person who voted that Northern Italians are denying Sicilians as Italians and Europeans. Am I simply surrounded by bigots?

they're probably from Northern League

[dawson]

Say significant percentage is to say falsities if you mean we have overlap with North Africans you're even more off road or probably you're accustomed to some Arab and North Africans posted on these forums.

non cambia mai

[Amici]

An Abruzzese with light eyes is not a big deal..

:picard2:

Questo qui è un sock della checca.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

I mean genes and phenotype. They are slightly more northern than Sicilians.


lol

I second the lol, just for the lol's. xD

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

What if you all make fun of me? I'm swarthy and you're all light :/

xD

[dawson]

:picard2:

Questo qui è un sock della checca.

no, è un canadese. Ha postato anche foto di se' e della famiglia, non è Sikeliot.

[Sikeliot]

xD

Why is that funny?

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Why is that funny?

Well not really but the other kinda yeah, the way you tell that, why, just the way it sounds.

[dawson]

:picard2:

Questo qui è un sock della checca.

però parla un pò come lui è vero, ho letto i post vecchi

[Dylan]

they're probably from Northern League

I found out they were just joking after having a few drinks, it wasnt anything serious.

[Tiberio]

An Abruzzese with light eyes is not a big deal..

Every Italian region have an high percentage of light eyes but italo-americans have this idea that we are all dark and short.
http://s30.postimg.org/jliampg3l/15s579t.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

[Tiberio]

Some Sicilians are proud of Arab contributions, others not. Those who are often the most proud of the Normans are those who hate Islam, but not all (alfieb is an exception, he is proud of the Normans but not ashamed of the Arab period).

I never feel any connection to the Normans or to the Crusades until I read about Islamic extremism and then I am kind of thankful.

Sicily is by the most catholic and religious area of Europe.

[Longbowman]

Every Italian region have an high percentage of light eyes but italo-americans have this idea that we are all dark and short.
http://s30.postimg.org/jliampg3l/15s579t.jpg (http://postimage.org/)



-
Light hair (red and blonde)
Light eyes (blue and grey)


Piedmont
13.2%
39.9%


Liguria
11.1%
30.6%


Lombardia
10.8%
37.2%


Veneto
13.3%
41.43%


Emilia
7.7%
31.1%


Tuscany
10.0%
31.5%


Marche
8.1%
31.3%


Umbria
9.5%
32.8%


Lazio
7.1%
26.2%


Abbruzzo
7.1%
28.6%


Campania
7.3%
25.6%


Puglie
6.1%
26.4%


Basilicata
5.4%
23.1%


Calabria
4.0%
19.5%


Sicilia
5.4%
24.0%


Sardegna
2.0%
13.9%


Total
8.8%
30.9%

[Sikeliot]

Light eyes are not uncommon in Sicily, but light hair is.

[Peter Nirsch]

Sicilians I've met outside the web are usually proud of their Italian, Ancient Greek and Arab heritage, they are conscious of their glorious history.