Ancient R1a1 and N1c from western Russia

[Black Wolf]

David just posted this today at Eurogenes. New ancient DNA results from western Russia. Y-DNA haplogroup R1a1 and mtDNA haplogroup H appear in a 6000 year old hunter-gatherer. From the comments that I have read though the mtDNA H result may based off of just HVS-1 results and is CRS which could in fact be haplogroup U instead. Further testing is probably needed. Y-DNA haplogroup N1c has also turned up in some later samples.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2015/02/ancient-r1a1-and-n1c-from-western-russia.html

https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Archaeology_of_lake_settlement_IV-II_mill._BC_Mazurkevich_A._Polkovnikova_M._Dolbuno va_E._ed

[welp]

Yah, because Yamnas were all R1b an shizz.

[Graham]

This would be in an area that shows high Hunter-gatherer in modern Samples. What is R1a1 like in this area? I'd imagine a high amount in Modern samples also.

[Black Wolf]

This would be in an area that shows high Hunter-gatherer in modern Samples. What is R1a1 like in this area? I'd imagine a high amount in Modern samples also.

Yes R1a1 is found in large frequencies all over European Russia.

[oh-nahhh]

From the comments that I have read though the mtDNA H result may based off of just HVS-1 results and is CRS which could in fact be haplogroup U instead. Further testing is probably needed.
So it's a blunder or what!?

[Äijä]

The drainage basin of the Daugava

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Fluss-lv-D%C3%BCna.png

[Black Wolf]

So it's a blunder or what!?

Basically yes...They need to test these samples further to know what haplogroup they really belong to. CRS or just a few HVS-1 mutations do not tell us much really.

[Graham]

So what do we have then is Yamna type R1b( perhaps r1a1 also) in South West Russia going West through Europe( excluding North-East) and the Hunter Gathers of R1a1 & N1c in North East Europe?

[oh-nahhh]

Basically yes...They need to test these samples further to know what haplogroup they really belong to. CRS or just a few HVS-1 mutations do not tell us much really.Seems like a strange error to make.

I guess we shouldn't start speculating why mtDNA H was present in ancient west Russia since we're not sure it was.

[Black Wolf]

Seems like a strange error to make.

I guess we shouldn't start speculating why mtDNA H was present in ancient west Russia since we're not sure it was.

Well there is a confirmed H sample from Mesolithic Karelia and it is H2a of some sort. So even though these samples from this study need to be tested further there is certainly a chance that they really are H/H2.

[The Sun King]

Interesting study. Surprised to see Haplogroup H there.

[welp]

So what do we have then is Yamna type R1b( perhaps r1a1 also) in South West Russia going West through Europe( excluding North-East) and the Hunter Gathers of R1a1 & N1c in North East Europe?

I'm not very convinced by Reich so until I see some concrete results that Yamnas were indeed R1b and not R1a I'll take the other option.

R1b/R1a being connected with hair pigmentation seems like complete Eupedia Maciamoscience to me, especially now that the Yamnaya turned out to be primarily wogs. They should just examine corded ware and later bronze age DNA over eastern and central/south central europe so we have a clear picture as to what was going on. My bet would be the same as yours about R1a and R1b routes in that case.

Btw, the Yamnaya relation to modern Europeans on the chart that was published (the one with bedouin, EN, WHG and Yamna components) seems to be consistent with the amount of R1 (sometimes even R1b) in almost all nations so far.

[blogen]

The second R1a from the mesolithic northeast. I had truth, when I presupposed the connection between the strong Cromagnoid presence (Baltids, etc.) and the R1a in Northeast Europe. Mesolithic pre-Indoeuropean heritage.

http://s27.postimg.org/y5sbsg5k3/coloneurop.jpg

[Not a Cop]

The second R1a from the mesolithic northeast. I had truth, when I presupposed the connection between the strong Cromagnoid presence (Baltids, etc.) and the R1a in Northeast Europe. Mesolithic pre-Indoeuropean heritage.

http://s27.postimg.org/y5sbsg5k3/coloneurop.jpg

Well Mesolithic R1a might have blended into some IE culture on later stages, oterwise we need some new explanation for it's spread into Asia, since WHG is very low to non-existant in thoose places.

[welp]

Well Mesolithic R1a might have blended into some IE culture on later stages, oterwise we need some new explanation for it's spread into Asia, since WHG is very low to non-existant in thoose places.

Could be a different branch. Far as we know, the Tocharians or south siberians didn't indo-europianize (sorry for the bad expression) anyone. It was the proto-Russians and Yamnas who did the work, each in their own regions. There is also a theory I heard going around that those far-easterners are a group that was split from those above and did it's own seperate thing and evolution.

[blogen]

Well Mesolithic R1a might have blended into some IE culture on later stages, oterwise we need some new explanation for it's spread into Asia, since WHG is very low to non-existant in thoose places.

Indoeuropaization of the mesolithic peoples. The Slav's and Balt's ancestors were mostly assimilated pre-Indoeuropean origin mesolithic peoples. What is not surprise based on their physical appearance.

[Hevo]

Well Mesolithic R1a might have blended into some IE culture on later stages, oterwise we need some new explanation for it's spread into Asia, since WHG is very low to non-existant in thoose places.

So it might be indo-europeanized by the R1b dudes after all?:laugh:

[blogen]

So it might be indo-europeanized by the R1b dudes after all?:laugh:

No, not the Yamna peoples indoeuropized Eastern Europe, but the ancestors of the Corded Ware peoples, who were the Linear Pottery Peoples (their ancestors were the Körös peoples).

http://img.ie/images/2015/02/26/27990ea0eac8f81e3b1b592d1d4f5fca.jpg

[Artek]

No, not the Yamna peoples indoeuropized Eastern Europe, but the ancestors of the Corded Ware peoples, who were the Linear Pottery Peoples (their ancestors were the Körös peoples)
Being an ancestor suggests (partial)continuity, whereas Linear Pottery has nothing to do with Corded Ware. Maybe it would be more fortunate to use a name "preceding culture"

[LightHouse89]

R1b is from Eurasia :)

[Bloodnigger]

Interesting study. Surprised to see Haplogroup H there.

H makes up almost half of all european mt-dna in most countries. Everything else is fairly balanced.

It makes sense as females are the bottlenecks in populations. Y-dna can just...spurt their dna around.

[Vorg]

"Baltic roots of haplogroup N3". Translation of the article (shortened):

One of the proofs of the Finno-Ugric origin of the Russians often serve high percentages of haplogroup N in European Russia. True, the "debunkers" forget to point out that the high percents are achieved mainly due to the northern Russians (residents of Arkhangelsk, Vologda, Kirov, Kostroma region and Karelia), and in the center and south of the figure drops to 6-15%. We will try to sort out this issue.

The name "Oka" - is not distorted Finno-Ugric word 'Joki' ("River"), and is an Indo-European word that means "water", which is akin to the Gothic 'aƕa' ("river"), in old high German 'ahe' ("water", "river"), in upper german 'Aa', in Lat. 'aqua' ("water"), in Lithuanian 'alkis', in Latvian 'alcis' - "rises from the depths of the key", "small open area of ​​water in the overgrown swamp or lake." Of the many names of Baltic tribes inhabiting the territory of Central Russia up to the territory of modern Nizhny Novgorod region, we know only one thing - Galindians.

So, the successors of the Indo-European cultures in Central Russia - Baltic and some unknown tribes that are related Tokhars (I call them "Old-Indo-Europeans") lived far to the east than currently assumed.

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/tarasow_ilya/41025476/196280/196280_900.jpg

It is these tribes were later assimilated by Slavs came, becoming the Russian population of the central strip. They were not the Finno-Ugrians, they were the Balts and "old Indo-Europeans". Finno-Ugrians lived along the Volga River and to the north. So why, then, among the Russian population of the central band high percentage of carriers of haplogroup N (10-20%)?

In general, it is worth noting that this haplogroup N and its variations are common not only in the Russian north, but also in the Baltic States, among Baltic peoples. Lithuanians - 37%, Latvians - 41%.
With Latvians is clear - their ancestors lived partly in the territory of ancient Baltic-Finnish tribe Livs, which then assimilated, but the Lithuanians - they never lived in the Finno-Ugric territory. Carriers of haplogroup N3 among Lithuanians higher than among the Mari and two times higher than among Mordovians (which are typical Finno-Ugric people!).

http://www.novgorod.ru/images/1267.gif

Yes the same Estonians are more similar to the neighboring Slavs and Balts than the Finno-Ugrians - it even says Estonian science! - http://svpressa.ru/society/article/60385/

As it turned out, the case in the Balts. Even the Belarusians, in whose area do not lived Finnish tribes, have 10% of N3. The point, again, in the Balts, who lived on the territory of Belarus over a thousand years, until the XX century.

As you might guess, the Balts participated in the formation of the genesis of the north-Russian population (which is what explains the similarity of north Russians with Germans, Lithuanians and Estonians)

http://historylib.org/historybooks/E-V--Balanovskaya--O-P--Balanovskiy_Russkiy-genofond-na-Russkoy-ravnine/1338811341_c700.jpg

This proves even hydronyms from the Arkhangelsk region - Juras, Kotlas, Dvina, etc.

- http://tarasow -ilya.livejournal.com/57367.html

[blogen]

Being an ancestor suggests (partial)continuity, whereas Linear Pottery has nothing to do with Corded Ware. Maybe it would be more fortunate to use a name "preceding culture"

Of course Linear Pottery --> Funnelbeaker --> Corded Ware was the line.