Neo-Danubian, Ladogan, etc.

[Wotan88]

Hi after long break from posting here!

I have a question about this whole Neo-Danubian issue. I've read somewhere (I think even on this forum) different opinions about that. Some people argued that C. S. Coon's concept of Neo-Danubian race is wrong, and these people belong to other race.
Could someone elaborate on this issue? Is N-D concept viable? If not, how these people would be classified?
I highly doubt that these people are primarily East Baltics. I live in Poland, according to Coon many Poles belong to N-D in his classification, but I rarely see people with East Baltic features. Nordic, Dinaric and Alpine traits are much more common, at least in my region.

[kwp_wp]

I also doubt in legitimacy of separating the so called Neo-Danubian sub-race. I think all what we need are these 5 main components: Nordid, Baltid, Alpine, Dinarid and Med and the rest is variety of mixtures between them.
As for the relatively small percentage of Baltid traits among Poles I have to say that I got opposite opinion. At least from my personal experience and observation I believe there is significant impact of Baltid elements in Poles appearance.

[Agrippa]

In my opinion Coon was wrong for many reasons, one of the reasons was he noted racial change, but was still inclined to believe that most populations show a great continuity.

Thats not necessarily true however and the Osteuropid variants of today are rather the result of a process with refer to as Baltisation, mostly based on archaic Cromagnoids of the North East, some of which (Eastbaltid + Lappoid) being Mongoloid influenced, rest mostly changed due to different selective pressures, the new way of life and climate.

His whole idea of the "Danubians" prehistorically and historically is questionable without great significance for the real racial element of the East, the Osteuropids (Westbaltid, Baltid proper and Eastbaltid).

[Wotan88]

As for the relatively small percentage of Baltid traits among Poles I have to say that I got opposite opinion. At least from my personal experience and observation I believe there is significant impact of Baltid elements in Poles appearance.

Well, it's dependant, on which typology you base your views. "Baltid" in Coon's typology is very variable, but for example some German anthropologists tried to denigrate Baltic people, showing very extreme cases of East Baltic (quasi mongoloid) as "examples of Baltic race" (see Gunther's books). I mean, people like that:

http://white-history.com/earlson/hfk/ebracegal1_files/128a.jpg
http://white-history.com/earlson/hfk/ebracegal1_files/129a.jpg

These people look somewhat mongoloid. I don't see such people living in Poland at all. If you - by Baltid - mean people like these:

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/baltid01.JPG
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/andrisberzins.jpg

Then I agree that you can sometimes see people of such phenotype here. But they are not predominant racial type, just one of the few.

[Pallantides]

http://white-history.com/earlson/hfk/ebracegal1_files/128a.jpg
http://white-history.com/earlson/hfk/ebracegal1_files/129a.jpg

These people look somewhat mongoloid. I don't see such people living in Poland at all.

Well the guy is a Swede and the girl is south Sámi(judging by her gákti)

[Wotan88]

Oh, and another question for you, kwp_wp...


I think all what we need are these 5 main components: Nordid, Baltid, Alpine, Dinarid and Med and the rest is variety of mixtures between them.

But how - using these 5 main racial trends - would you classify people like Borrebys? I mean - somehow resembling Alpines in general way of looking, but lighter pigmented and non-Baltid (in western Europe). Do you perceive them as some sort of intermediate form between Nordid and Alpine? :confused:

[Agrippa]

Most of Guenthers "pure Ostbaltische" are in my scheme Mongoliform/Mongoloid influenced Eastbaltids or Lappoids, some even rather straightforward Mongolid mixed.

He took rather extreme examples for both Mediterranid and Osteuropid, such which are really borderline for Europe and not common.

But for a better understanding this thread of mine might be helpful:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11365

[Wotan88]

Most of Guenthers "pure Ostbaltische" are in my scheme Mongoliform/Mongoloid influenced Eastbaltids or Lappoids, some even rather straightforward Mongolid mixed.

He took rather extreme examples for both Mediterranid and Osteuropid, such which are really borderline for Europe and not common.

Yeah, I have also noticed that. That's why I asked kwp_wp to confirm, which system he uses. His system seem to overlap largely with Gunther's, so I asked for clarification. :)


But for a better understanding this thread of mine might be helpful:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11365

Thanks, I will surely read that! :thumb001:

[Pallantides]

I think Gunther had an agenda.




I like his description of the mental charectaristics of the east baltic race:D


His boisterousness may turn to a blind lust of destruction. 'Nihilism' lies deep in the East Baltic soul.

[kwp_wp]

But how - using these 5 main racial trends - would you classify people like Borrebys? I mean - somehow resembling Alpines in general way of looking, but lighter pigmented and non-Baltid (in western Europe). Do you perceive them as some sort of intermediate form between Nordid and Alpine? :confused:

I like to have it simple:)
Oh, I forgot to add that I'm not an expert in any case...;)
I also didn't mention sixth element which plays main role in European typology: CM - Upper Paleolithic survivors. So with CM influence you will get Borreby, Brunn, Dalo-Faelid etc
But as I said I might be wrong...

[Wotan88]

I like to have it simple

Me too, my Polish friend. :)


Oh, I forgot to add that I'm not an expert in any case...

Me neither.


I also didn't mention sixth element which plays main role in European typology: CM - Upper Paleolithic survivors. So with CM influence you will get Borreby, Brunn, Dalo-Faelid etc

Yes, after adding sixth element, this system makes sense. But aren't Baltids also derived from CMs?

[Agrippa]

Yes, after adding sixth element, this system makes sense. But aren't Baltids also derived from CMs?

Yes they are, but in the end we are all derived from Australid and Sanid like racial forms, so to say it simple, they are no longer in the same category as Dalofaelids are, even if their ancestral form was more similar to the basic Cromagnid stock, but changed over time to something new, with just certain Cromagnoid characteristics being left, many changed.

Taurids too seem to stem from leptodolichomorphic forms for the most part (robust Medtiterranid, Nordoid, Iranoid), but are different now too and obviously no longer of that kind, only related with certain traits...

Alpinisation being a process as well, most likely from darker Cromagnoids, in the West especially along the lines Palaeatlantid - Berid - Alpinid. This can be seen in North Africa too were certain Alpinoid forms derived from Cromagnoid Berberids which became reduced.

Same for Nordoids which once were darker pigmented, probably more Mediterranoid like, but now they are depigmented so in a different category etc., etc...

15.000 years ago many of todays racial forms didn't exist or at least didn't exist in their modern form as a constitiutive part of any larger population...

[Wotan88]

Okay, I understand now. I haven't thought that evolution is happening so quickly (relatively).

Anyway - how would you classify those people, who fall into category of "Neo-Danubians" in Coon's system? Are they variable, or they represent for example Baltid race?

[Agrippa]

They are pred. Osteuropid/Baltid to Eastbaltid so to say.

[Aviane]

Poles in lots of ways kind of remind me sometimes of Central and Eastern Europeans rolled into one.

[Wotan88]

Okay, so one more question.

I often hear about some eastern Europeans to have some mongoloid (lappoid?) influence like very prominent cheekbones and so on. My question is - does it apply to Baltids (or Osteuropids as some of you call it) in general or maybe only to eastern branches of Baltids like East Baltids?

From my own experience of "looking at people" I see such traits only in East Baltics, while "normal" Baltics seem to not have such influences.

Thank you in advance.

[Eldritch]

'Nihilism' lies deep in the East Baltic soul.

That sentence is rescued from complete falsehood by the quotation marks. ;)

There's some truth in the description, although not much. Given how lenghty and flowery the descriptions are, he's bound to get something right. :tongue

[Agrippa]

Okay, so one more question.

I often hear about some eastern Europeans to have some mongoloid (lappoid?) influence like very prominent cheekbones and so on. My question is - does it apply to Baltids (or Osteuropids as some of you call it) in general or maybe only to eastern branches of Baltids like East Baltids?

From my own experience of "looking at people" I see such traits only in East Baltics, while "normal" Baltics seem to not have such influences.

Thank you in advance.

Well, it is a question of definition, but thats exactly why I carefully distinguish between Westbaltid (brachycephalised Cromagnoids), Baltid (reduced-infantilised Cromagnoids) and those with the Mongoloid tendencies = Eastbaltid.

"Normal" Westbaltid and Baltid variants have usually no real Mongoloid or even significant Mongoliform influence.

[Wotan88]

Sorry for refreashing thread but I have another question related to that topic and I don't want to spam with new threads.

Coon believed that Nordids emerged after mixing between 2 Proto-Nordid types that were: Danubian and Corded. But most of you believe that he was wrong about this whole "Neo-Danubian" thing and that such race doesn't exist. But if Neo-Danubian doesn't exist, does it mean that "Danubian" Proto-Nordid race hasn't existed?

In short: even if his Neo-Danubian concept is wrong, then is his concept of "Danubian Proto-Nordid race" true? Thanks in advance.

[Agrippa]

Sorry for refreashing thread but I have another question related to that topic and I don't want to spam with new threads.

Coon believed that Nordids emerged after mixing between 2 Proto-Nordid types that were: Danubian and Corded. But most of you believe that he was wrong about this whole "Neo-Danubian" thing and that such race doesn't exist. But if Neo-Danubian doesn't exist, does it mean that "Danubian" Proto-Nordid race hasn't existed?

In short: even if his Neo-Danubian concept is wrong, then is his concept of "Danubian Proto-Nordid race" true? Thanks in advance.

First of all we must clear up some misunderstandings of Coon. He already recognised that racial forms can develop and change, yet he still underestimated that capability of all human racial forms, so his principle of Dinarisation too is wrong, because he largely neglects or at least underestimates the importance of selection in the process.

Now if we deal with "Danubians", what people are we talking about?


The term Danubian culture was coined by the Australian archaeologist Vere Gordon Childe to describe the first agrarian society in central and eastern Europe. It covers the Linear Pottery culture (Linearbandkeramik, LBK), stroked pottery and Rössen cultures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danubian_culture

Now the LBK-people themselves were NOT that homogenous and to describe them as some sort of gracile Mediterranoids is wrong too. In fact, they had various elements among them and the Northern group was especially characterised by a variant which was basically robust Mediterranid and/or Nordoid or something in between, but living under horrible conditions, having various signs of malnutrition, diseases and inbreeding.

Some people looked simply at their size and concluded, because they were shorter, that they might have been, even the Northern group, rather "gracile Mediterranoids", but if looking carefully at their traits, what some later authors did, one can see that they were actually often as robust or individually even more robust than most later populations! They just showed signs of negative environmental influences, similar to Greenlanders and Icelanders in the cold-famine period f.e.

Many variants of them were actually quite close to the Corded Ware people later, which showed much less of the negative deviations by this deprivation.

Corded people seem to be, in my opinion, the result of a breeding-selection process working on people related to the (more Northern) LBK-group to a large degree, in which the negative deviations by deprivation were drastically reduced - they changed from farmer-herder to herder-warrior and herder-farmer warriors - positive selection and living standards increased, which led to a decrease of primitive traits and a fairly homogenous core group in the future Corded Ware core area.

So if somebody is talking about Danubian-Corded mixtures, that's all quite relative and to make up of some rather deviating examples of the Danubian culture bearers an own type, trying to sort it out and finally presenting rather absurd living examples, just makes little sense.

Especially if there is almost no way how a cross of Danubian-Corded could produce Hallstatt/classic Skandonordid.

But he was right insofar, as among the Danubians elements were present which could be described as robust Mediterranid or Proto-Nordoid and were most likely involved in the formation of the Nordid racial type.

His exact description and over-estimated distinction between "Danubian and Corded" was flawed, but he was right in seeing among these prehistoric Danubian people ancestral forms to at least a certain portion of todays Nordoid and Atlanto-Pontid variants.

Coon himself wrote, for his "Danubian" Plate 28:

The reason for qualification on this score is that not enough Danubian crania have been found and described to make this point certain.

So his "Danubian type" was based on a few, probably untypical crania and he concluded from these a lot, I might say too much, especially since he didn't recognise the environmental aspect, described above.

His living examples look mostly like Atlanto-Pontid + Alpinoid...

Many years later, a German anthropologist (Bach) looked more carefully especially at the Northern LBK-crania and I can definitely say that among these were robust Mediterranid - Nordoid skulls which could be seen as typically Corded or at least Nordoid too and are not really like the examples Coon presented for his "Danubian type", though such deviating forms existed too, were largely bred out and cannot be considered ancestral to the Nordid racial type in the narrower sense.

Here some examples from Adelheid Bach's work (2nd was a female):
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5117/img0002h.jpg (http://img827.imageshack.us/i/img0002h.jpg/)

You can find more about this topic in this thread, in which we discussed about whether a Nordid type exists, how he can be defined, what his origins were etc:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=152217

[bluesky]

Where is the danubian race common? and what do they look like any pics? and where is the corded race common? what do they look like any pics of them too?

[Odoacer]

Not that I necessarily agree with him, but this is what Coon (http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/p-31.htm) has to say:


The term Neo-Danubian has been used in this work to designate a general class of central and eastern European blond or partially blond brachycephals who seem to be derived in a racial sense from a de-Corded Nordic (and hence Danubian) prototype brachycephalized by Ladogan admixture. This type is very prevalent among modern Slavs of Poland and Russia, and also among some eastern Germans and Austrians.

http://carnby.altervista.org/immagini/troe311.jpg

http://carnby.altervista.org/immagini/troe312.jpg

http://carnby.altervista.org/immagini/troe313.jpg

http://carnby.altervista.org/immagini/troe314.jpg

[Artek]

Corded is a Mediterranean/Proto-Nordid subtype, associated with Corded Ware Culture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture.
Cordeds were long headed, high vaulted and long faced. They were, most likely, only partly depigmented. Today, they are mostly blended with Nordids, Troenders and Anglo-Saxons.
Pics:
1.Syrian guy
http://dienekes.110mb.com/articles/karlearlson/cordedafghan.jpg
2. Austrian guy
http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/roapazeinli/krainer.jpg
3. Me (at significant part)
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/4749/xcgcyg.jpg
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/6660/dgrtu.jpg
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9171/bjhkif.jpg

By the way, Coon's Neo-Danubians are piece of s**t, I recommend not to learn about that "race", because this is bullshit.

[bluesky]

i read somewhere that the proto-slavs and the proto-iranians were corded/danubian

[Artek]

You look like an idiot.
I look like an idiot, but YOU ARE an idiot ;)
I shouldn't even answer for such things. Smiling is dumb thing, yes...

[Saruman]

Coon's Neo-Danubians look like some Osteuropid-Nordid mixes, certainly I can believe such type is common in the areas he mentioned but that it's an original type is a bit far-fetched. Last guy looks Putinoid. Him and no.2 man show some archaic tendencies, chin shape in particular. No.1 is more Eastbaltid with some Nordoid.

Yes Artek has this Corded look. High head, vertical forehead, somewhat Dinariomorph/Iraniomorph nose..:)

[Artek]

Coon's Neo-Danubians look like some Osteuropid-Nordid mixes, certainly I can believe such type is common in the areas he mentioned but that it's an original type is a bit far-fetched. Last guy looks Putinoid. Him and no.2 man show some archaic tendencies, chin shape in particular. No.1 is more Eastbaltid with some Nordoid.
According to Coon, Neo-Danubians are representing over 30 % of Polish population. Basing on the photos posted, I would count this guys as about 1-2 % - since they are strongly Lappid influenced looking more like Russians or Finns(?) than Poles. Crappy Neo-Danubian term needs to be revised but today, in times of foolish political correctness, anyone of competent anthropologists would make it.There is no need to make additional divisions like subtypes. Nowadays, it is said that everyone is "equal". Really? It is the dumbest statement I've ever heard. Nobody is equal, because as a humans, we are often completely different. Only foundations are basically the same.



Yes Artek has this Corded look. High head, vertical forehead, somewhat Dinariomorph/Iraniomorph nose..:)
I noticed that, after I realised that I've got very long face(somewhat horsy ;/) compared to the others and curved, prominent occiput. Also forehead was on average higher and steeper than most of my Nordoid friends have.
After all, I'm wondering if my haplogroup overlaps with an appearance ;).

[Saruman]

According to Coon, Neo-Danubians are representing over 30 % of Polish population. Basing on the photos posted, I would count this guys as about 1-2 % - since they are strongly Lappid influenced looking more like Russians or Finns(?) than Poles.

Yes, they are more Eastern looking than Poland proper on avg.



I noticed that, after I realised that I've got very long face(somewhat horsy ;/) compared to the others and curved, prominent occiput. Also forehead was on average higher and steeper than most of my Nordoid friends have.
After all, I'm wondering if my haplogroup overlaps with an appearance ;).

"Horsy" appearance is common among prominent nosed-weaker chin combinations, so in some Corded/East Nordid variants that are extremely leptomorph that seems relatively common. In you just "slight". "Birdy" look can be similar, I saw one Norid that looked like a bird. But you have some obvious Germanic look in facial traits too, I'd say.:)

[rashka]

Any new updates on this Danubian race?

[Incel King]

I was always confused by this. Is term Neo-Danubian just synonym for Baltic sub-race or it's distinct sub-race?

[Hayalet]

Pretty much the same thing in different terminologies. The difference, if there is any, is that Neo-Danubian is supposed to be a blend of different types while Baltid is a type of its own.

[Incel King]

so Neo-Danubian≈Baltid?

[sevruk]

neo-danubian nonexistent phenotype

[Incel King]

neo-danubian nonexistent phenotype



1.) Neo-Danubian type (eastern periphery blend of original Danubian and Kurgan proto-Nordics with Ladogan, with the Nordic element dominant; majority element in Poland and
Belorussia, primary element in Hungary, west Ukraine and northwest Russia, important in Finland and the Baltic States)

Source (http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html)

[sevruk]

Source (http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html)
one of the many misconceptions Carlton Coon's. How could he know about the population of Ukraine, Russia, Belarus if he's never been there? He reminds me of anthropologists from the Third Reich.

[CelticViking]

Etymology:
The term Neo-Danubian is derived from Danubian ("of the River Danube"), a cultural designation associated with the proto-Nordics of the Neolithic, who brought Indo-European language (Slavic and Baltic) to the eastern steppes.




Other names:

- Oriental (Deniker)
- Osteuropid (von Eickstedt; includes the East Baltic type)
- Pre-Slavic (Czekanowski)
- Slavic (popular anthropology)
- Subnordic (Deniker; includes the East Baltic type)


Origin:

Danubian proto-Nordic altered by the semi-mongolid Ladogan racial type of the northeastern forests. This type was brought westward from the Volga country with the migrations of the Baltic Finns during the centuries immediately preceding and after the time of Christ. Today it presents a variable but easily recognizable phenotype of eastern Europe.


Description:

Neo-Danubians are very round-skulled, and their cephalic indices frequently exceed 85. The head form is globular, and the forehead is steep and not seldom protuberant. The face is square to oval in shape, and the combination of a round face and a plump cheek is common. There is often a slight flatness to the Neo-Danubian face.

The nose is moderately leptorrhine, straight to concave in profile, and often snub-tipped in a Ladogan fashion. The nasal skeleton is rather low, with a broad tip.

The upper lip is long and convex, and the cheek furrows are as a rule strong.

Median eyefolds are indicative of a low orbit a heavy deposit of fat in the upper lid. Another fatty deposit - on the malars - seems to be a secondary sex character, as it is most common among women. The malars are only moderately projecting, especially when compared to those of East Baltics and Ladogans.

Neo-Danubian pigmentation is more blond than brunet, and the pigment character is prevailingly light-mixed. The combination of ash-blond hair with gray-mixed eyes seems to be a specialization shared with East Baltics and partially blond Ladogans, but the most common combination is golden blond hair and blue eyes.

Nastassja Kinski


Oksana Baiul


Vladimir Zhirinovsky


Anna Kournikova

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/rg-neo.htm

[Ugo Tognazzi]

While Coon's NEO DANUBIAN, somehow fits an (east) Alpinoid/Baltoid type,
and LADOGAN can be exchanged for a (east) Cro Magnid/(east) Baltid/Lapponoid type

the problem is mainly the DANUBIAN as a gracile Nordoid type. which combined with Nordid created the Hallstatt/Iron Age type. This ''recipe'' is difficult to understand and
LBK/Danubian skulls (observed by user Agrippa, here and on other fora) were rather primitive Nordid/Cromagnid overall

[Saruman]

Source (http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html)


one of the many misconceptions Carlton Coon's. How could he know about the population of Ukraine, Russia, Belarus if he's never been there? He reminds me of anthropologists from the Third Reich.

That's not Coon. But McCulloch derived from Coon with his "Nordish" concept that is overly pro-NW Euro and anti-Slavic. Most of his numbers and percentages are laughable to say the least. The only people I can imagine using those numbers are "dumb Americans".


Wales = 100% Nordish (35% central and 65% periphery types)

Russia, Belorussia and Ukraine = 53% Nordish (8% central and 45% periphery types)

http://hotnerdgirl.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/double-facepalm1.jpg

[Lisa]

In the region of Lake Ladoga live more North European (Nordic) people than in Britain or Germany.

[druzynnik]

This 'neo-danubian' thing always gave me a pseudo-science vibe. Like it was created to support misconceptions of Eastern and Northeast Europe at any cost. I believe it's pretty outdated and rests on faulty foundations, since the "Ladogan" is not a major component in any of the countries' populations it's allegedly used to describe, besides say, Saami.

"Ladogan" seems to be conflated with "Baltid" in general. Lots of confusion and murkiness.

[Sisak]

this Croatian girl seems to be neo danubian
http://i50.tinypic.com/suzfb4.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/p84n7.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/vzu5j9.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/20uuyo6.jpg

[Sisak]

http://i45.tinypic.com/2q1t1m9.jpg

Ladogan -Andrea Šušnjara, Croatian singer
http://i50.tinypic.com/2rfpy55.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/10cuhjq.jpg

[8050]

http://i.imgur.com/cEVV0.jpg

[JeanBaMac]

Ladogan ≈ Baltid ,
Neo-Danubian ≈ East Nordid + Baltid (Poles and Russians)

[Amud]

I found these big collections of images of people (I think they're athletes) from the Baltic states and Finland. Here are a bunch that seem to fit with Coon's Neo-Danubian type. People are saying that they don't think it's a real type, but it does seem to be. 45048

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=45048&d=1393806204


This is supposed to be a mix of Danubian and Ladogan. Coon's Danubian was a more reduced, mesocephalic type of Nordic, which would probably be classed as Sub-Nordid by most people here. The Ladogan was similar to what people here call East Baltid, although it wasn't necessarily blonde.

[JeanBaMac]

"This is supposed to be a mix of Danubian and Ladogan. Coon's Danubian was a more reduced, mesocephalic type of Nordic, which would probably be classed as Sub-Nordid by most people here. The Ladogan was similar to what people here call East Baltid, although it wasn't necessarily blonde. "
=> So "Neo-Danubians" are a sort of East Nordid/East Baltid/Gorid(East Alpinoid) combination.

[JeanBaMac]

@Jelisava : the first Croatian girl seems to be Noric, since Andrea Susnjara seems to be Nordobaltid (= classical "Slavic" look).

[Amud]

"This is supposed to be a mix of Danubian and Ladogan. Coon's Danubian was a more reduced, mesocephalic type of Nordic, which would probably be classed as Sub-Nordid by most people here. The Ladogan was similar to what people here call East Baltid, although it wasn't necessarily blonde. "
=> So "Neo-Danubians" are a sort of East Nordid/East Baltid/Gorid(East Alpinoid) combination.

I think so, yeah. Maybe not that exact combination, but a general mix of Eastern European types that is mostly reduced (ie. not robust or Borreby-influenced) and very slightly Mongoloid-looking. It's a variable type. This kind of look seems to be more common in a lot of places in Eastern Europe than the Baltid type.

[Cern]

Fake type, it's just the antipathy against the Slavs.

[Amud]

Fake type, it's just the antipathy against the Slavs.


How is it a fake type? What are Slavs, then? A lot of people from Russia and Poland seem to resemble Coon's Neo-Danubian examples.

[Peikko]

Fake type, it's just the antipathy against the Slavs.
I agree. The same can be said about East Baltic and Ladogan types.

[Peikko]

How is it a fake type? What are Slavs, then? A lot of people from Russia and Poland seem to resemble Coon's Neo-Danubian examples.

A belarussian guy once said, that Coon's example looked typical Belarussian, so I guess there's nothing wrong with the plates. However, genetics proves, that belarussians aren't really mongoloid at all, so it's clear that Coon's theories were wrong.

[Amud]

A belarussian guy once said, that Coon's example looked typical Belarussian, so I guess there's nothing wrong with the plates. However, genetics proves, that belarussians aren't really mongoloid at all, so it's clear that Coon's theories were wrong.

The Ladogan type does look Mongoloid, but people could be wrong in assuming that they have Asian genes. It's probably just convergent evolution. Actually, Coon himself even pointed this out when he noted that a Finn and Irishman looked similar.

[Peikko]

The Ladogan type does look Mongoloid, but people could be wrong in assuming that they have Asian genes. It's probably just convergent evolution. Actually, Coon himself even pointed this out when he noted that a Finn and Irishman looked similar.
All Northern Europeans share mesolithic hunter-gatherer ancestry, but I don't think Finns and Irishmen overlap much. The Ladogan examples of Coon were obviously mongoloid looking, because he used people from Siberia as examples. He also notes, that
It must be emphasized that nearly all of the mongoloid racial factors possessed by the Ugrian speakers resident in Siberia were acquired after their shift of territory from European Russia to Asia..

[Roy]

A belarussian guy once said, that Coon's example looked typical Belarussian, so I guess there's nothing wrong with the plates. However, genetics proves, that belarussians aren't really mongoloid at all, so it's clear that Coon's theories were wrong.

Neo-Danubian seems like hardly specific type though if according to him it was so common in Poland f.e, why it's hardly real. But then there are very significant differences between Polish and Belarussian people so maybe that's it.

I dislike lumping Poles and East Slavs together in this context but Mr Coon lived in XIX century and many things changed since so (country borders, etc.). He had many originally wrong ideas/theories.

[Decius]

Neo danubian is a slavic look and is not fake like most people here are saying the fake types are West Baltid and other modern types invented by Pseudo Anthropologists and Anthrotards anyway many Neo Danubians do not have any mongol influence some ladogan examples I have seen are 100 percent caucasoid looking

[Laag]

Neo-Danubian is just sybtype of Ladogan.

(4) Ladogan: I propose to give this name to the descendants of the mesocephalic and brachycephalic forest-dwelling population of northern Europe east of the Baltic in Kammkeramik times. This type is a blend of a partly mongoloid brachycephalic element with a mesocephalic form of general Upper Palaeolithic aspect; these elements are seen in crania from Lake Ladoga and Salis Roje. (See Chapter IV, section 13, pp. 125-126.) Corded and/or Danubian elements are inextricably blended here, although the mongoloid and Upper Palaeolithic elements seem at present more important. In its present form this composite type shows two numerous variants:

(a) Neo-Danubian: Strongly mixed with the old Danubian, and to a lesser extent other elements, to form the common peasant type of eastern Europe, with many local variants.

(b) East Baltic: Strongly mixed with Corded, Iron Age Nordic, and western Palaeolithic survivors to form the predominant population of much of Finland and the Baltic States.

[Laag]

Baltid is also sybtype of Ladogan. All those Internet terms like Baltid, East Baltid, Eastern CM, Balto-CM, West Baltid, Kurganoid and so on are just sybtypes of North-East Upper Paleolithic types.