Were the Gauls of France related to Irish Celts?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Are they genetically related?

[Graham]

Are they genetically related?

There is no evidence. We don't have any Gaulish samples yet.

My assumption would be that the Modern French would be similar to the Gauls, rather than irish.

[Bloodnigger]

As much as the modern french of the most "gallic" areas related to the irish, I suspect. All the terms we have for ancient northern europeans come from old southern european historiography and they used blanket terms much like we do today. "Arabs", for example.

[Anglojew]

Yes, all Celts were related but many of the people labelled "Celts" in both countries were "pre-Celts" (also related though). An interesting new study:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-31695214

[Graham]

Yes, all Celts were related but many of the people labelled "Celts" in both countries were "pre-Celts" (also related though). An interesting new study:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-31695214

We have another thread on this from a few weeks back when the paper was released.
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

The Genomes from the ancient samples are now available. So we should see how the Bell Beaker and others compare on K15/K13 Eurogenes.. Which works great with Oracle and comparison to Modern populations.

We already know that the one High coverage Iron Age Briton from South East England matches with Ireland & West Scotland. This wasn't used in the latest study I posted above.

[Grace O'Malley]

Irish don't appear to be particularly related to French only in a kind of North Western European context. By that I mean that populations appear to be related to each other depending on their geographic positions. Neighbours are usually more related to each other. Saying that though there hasn't really been great genetic studies done on either the French or the Irish. I know that the Irish DNA Atlas project will release some preliminary results next year so hopefully we will get a better idea of the Irish population. This is quite a stringent test as people have to have all 8 of their grandparents from the one county. I don't expect any great surprises though and expect similarities to their neighbours across the Irish Sea. Hopefully they might find some pockets of distinctiveness in some more isolated areas. It would be interesting to know if in some places they were affected by the Hugenouts or Pallatines for example. Anyway looking forward to some results because there hasn't really been any great studies done on a wide scale in Ireland.

[Black Wolf]

Well they are/were probably related in the fact that both the Celts in Ireland and the Gauls/Celts in France are/were dominated by Y-DNA haplogroup R1b1.

[Grace O'Malley]

Well they are/were probably related in the fact that both the Celts in Ireland and the Gauls/Celts in France are/were dominated by Y-DNA haplogroup R1b1.

Yes but that is throughout Western Europe. Looking at dna cluster maps genetic relationships appear to be geographic. Northern French would be closer to Southern English for example. I also assume if a closer relationship exists then a population wouldn't cluster geographically but closer to a related population. Ireland cluster a bit more north of England. I'm sure there is a connection because of being in the geographic area but populations all appear to have spent time in Britain before coming to Ireland explaining the dna clustering. L21 is quite high in Northern France especially as it is an area under sampled but a lot of the L21 in Ireland came via Britain and not directly from France. All R1b came from East to West anyway.

[Black Wolf]

Yes but that is throughout Western Europe. Looking at dna cluster maps genetic relationships appear to be geographic. Northern French would be closer to Southern English for example. I also assume if a closer relationship exists then a population wouldn't cluster geographically but closer to a related population. Ireland cluster a bit more north of England. I'm sure there is a connection because of being in the geographic area but populations all appear to have spent time in Britain before coming to Ireland explaining the dna clustering. L21 is quite high in Northern France especially as it is an area under sampled but a lot of the L21 in Ireland came via Britain and not directly from France. All R1b came from East to West anyway.

All correct.

[blubb]

The reason why Bretagne is so high in L21 is because lots of Insular Celts settled there from Britain in around the 5th century (maybe pushed by Anglo-Saxon invasions in Britain), their language is also more related to Irish/Welsh etc. than to the (all extinct) Continental Celtic ones like Gaulish.
So any comparison between (ancient) Celts on the Continent and the Insular ones has to exclude Bretagne
55604

[Grace O'Malley]

The reason why Bretagne is so high in L21 is because lots of Insular Celts settled there from Britain in around the 5th century (maybe pushed by Anglo-Saxon invasions in Britain), their language is also more related to Irish/Welsh etc. than to the (all extinct) Continental Celtic ones like Gaulish.
So any comparison between (ancient) Celts on the Continent and the Insular ones has to exclude Bretagne
55604

Breton is related to Cornish and Welsh. It is part of the Brythonic Celtic language group while Irish is related to the Goidelic branch along with Scots Gaelic and Manx. There is also quite high L21 in Normandy and the L21 in Northern France is actually older and more diverse than any found in Britain and Ireland so it was there first before coming to the Isles. All the R1b like L21 originated further east.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Soo do you suspect the Irish Celts are related to the Gauls genetically? As Graham said there may be no proof but what do we suspect? This is the original question.

[Grace O'Malley]

Soo do you suspect the Irish Celts are related to the Gauls genetically? As Graham said there may be no proof but what do we suspect? This is the original question.

Only in respect to what I've said previously. It was highly likely R1b in the British Isles (& also Northern French) came from Rhenish Bell Beakers and they are most related to modern North Germans.

Here are my results and my mother's so we are quite close to Bell Beakers.

My results

Karelia 44.4392841
Samara 43.92900666
Yamnaya 33.16445575
CWC 17.3891086
BBC 6.942596195

Mother's results

Karelia 45.05193852
Samara 44.4955066
Yamnaya 33.29237322
CWC 18.1633014
BBC 5.974872888

The Bell Beakers appear to be closest to North Germans. Here are their averages as posted by someone on another forum.

Karelia: 43.43
Samara: 42.84
Yamnaya: 32.04
CWC: 15.63
BBC: 4.46

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Only in respect to what I've said previously. It was highly likely R1b in the British Isles (& also Northern French) came from Rhenish Bell Beakers and they are most related to modern North Germans.

Here are my results and my mother's so we are quite close to Bell Beakers.

My results

Karelia 44.4392841
Samara 43.92900666
Yamnaya 33.16445575
CWC 17.3891086
BBC 6.942596195

Edit to add my mother's results

Karelia 45.05193852
Samara 44.4955066
Yamnaya 33.29237322
CWC 18.1633014
BBC 5.974872888

The Bell Beakers appear to be closest to North Germans. Here are their averages as posted by someone on another forum.

Karelia: 43.43
Samara: 42.84
Yamnaya: 32.04
CWC: 15.63
BBC: 4.46

Yeah my Y-DNA is R1b....

[Graham]

The Bell Beakers appear to be closest to North Germans. Here are their averages as posted by someone on another forum.



Was looking through Polakos K15 Bell beakers yesterday. There's two groups spread out. A South Netherlands/most likely North French group and the other very Germanic.

[Grace O'Malley]

Here's the Blog on Eurogenes if anyone is interested in reading. All these ancient genomes are really fascinating and helping us understand modern populations and ancient movements.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2015/03/first-look-at-bell-beaker-corded-ware.html

[Grace O'Malley]

Was looking through Polakos K15 Bell beakers yesterday. There's two groups spread out. A South Netherlands/most likely North French group and the other very Germanic.

Did you check to see how close you are to the Bell Beakers Graham?

[Duke]

gauls were mostly south-central france?

[Italo-Celto-Germanic]

Breton is related to Cornish and Welsh. It is part of the Brythonic Celtic language group while Irish is related to the Goidelic branch along with Scots Gaelic and Manx. There is also quite high L21 in Normandy and the L21 in Northern France is actually older and more diverse than any found in Britain and Ireland so it was there first before coming to the Isles. All the R1b like L21 originated further east.

No it comes from further South.

From R1b.org

http://i.imgur.com/jA8PL2h.png

L21 evolved from P312, whose highest diversity is found in Tyrol between Italy and Austria. P312 is the sister clade of U106 which also came from the Alps.

As for languages.

http://i.imgur.com/LVZKhog.jpg

Ancient Ligurian is now listed as being either Celtic or Para Celtic with Italic influences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligurian_language_(ancient)

The broken link?

[Graham]

If you're interested Euclidean distance in Bell Beaker. Running with NW Europeans.


S Dutch 7.3315543
French 7.4857465
SWEnglish 8.9121658
SEEnglish 10.143397
WGerman 11.279248



S Dutch 14.150768
French 15.658902
Hinxton4 15.728522
NGerman 16.217733
SWEnglish 16.906883



S Dutch 8.9668085
NGerman 11.094324
SWEnglish 11.309889
French 11.593037
WGerman 12.447302

-----------------------------------------------------------


Icelandic 6.1312678
Danish 6.5065283
SWEnglish 7.0875454
SEEnglish 7.206171
N Dutch 7.4365277



Hinxton4 10.710051
NGerman 10.858956
N Dutch 11.577781
Danish 11.739996
Irish 11.760162




Danish 10.41551
Icelandic 10.640087
NGerman 11.053448
N Dutch 11.232878
W Nor 11.378201



NGerman 8.7288958
Danish 10.808824
N Dutch 11.56526
S Dutch 11.621216
WGerman 12.408666

[Grace O'Malley]

No it comes from further South.

From R1b.org

http://i.imgur.com/jA8PL2h.png

L21 evolved from P312, whose highest diversity is found in Tyrol between Italy and Austria. P312 is the sister clade of U106 which also came from the Alps.

As for languages.

http://i.imgur.com/LVZKhog.jpg

Ancient Ligurian is now listed as being either Celtic or Para Celtic with Italic influences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligurian_language_(ancient)

The broken link?

Not likely as it doesn't explain the high ANE in places like Ireland and Scotland. This one appears to make a bit more sense.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg

[Graham]

Did you check to see how close you are to the Bell Beakers Graham?

nah, probably not that close. Jackson could be though. haven't checked anyone. If I were a betting man. Jackson would be close.

[Grace O'Malley]

nah, probably not that close. Jackson could be though. haven't checked anyone. If I were a betting man. Jackson would be close.

Hopefully he'll post his results.

[Italo-Celto-Germanic]

Not likely as it doesn't explain the high ANE in places like Ireland and Scotland. This one appears to make a bit more sense.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg

Old and oudated map. R1b came from Russian hunther gatheres by the way.

High ANE came from further mixing with Corded Ware and native HGs in Central Europe.

[Hevo]

Not likely as it doesn't explain the high ANE in places like Ireland and Scotland. This one appears to make a bit more sense.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg

This map created by Eupedia is already debunked by Haak et al 2015. The other map posted by Italo-Celto-Germanic is based on pure speculations and not likely at all.

[Grace O'Malley]

This map created by Eupedia is already debunked by Haak et al 2015. The other map posted by Italo-Celto-Germanic is based on pure speculations and not likely at all.

Thanks Hevo. It would be great to see an updated map.

[Italo-Celto-Germanic]

This map created by Eupedia is already debunked by Haak et al 2015. The other map posted by Italo-Celto-Germanic is based on pure speculations and not likely at all.

:lol00002:

Butthurt R1b is butthurt.

You are free to post any academic or even commercial source to disprove that map from R1b.org, but I am sure you won't find any.

[Aodhan]

Northern France maybe

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

So where do we believe R1b originated?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Old and oudated map. R1b came from Russian hunther gatheres by the way.

High ANE came from further mixing with Corded Ware and native HGs in Central Europe.

Russian hunter gatherers?

[Hevo]

:lol00002:

Butthurt R1b is butthurt.

You are free to post any academic or even commercial source to disprove that map from R1b.org, but I am sure you won't find any.

Can't handle a normal discussion eh?:laugh: Learn the meaning of butthurt please.

Dude, that map is created based on speculations. Haak et al 2015 shows we have a more clear view about R1b in Europe but the route of R1b to Western Europe still a mystery and not solved yet. More testing needs to be done to be certain. R1b.org doesn't have any evidence or feel free to show me their sources.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

This map created by Eupedia is already debunked by Haak et al 2015. The other map posted by Italo-Celto-Germanic is based on pure speculations and not likely at all.

I won't say it's 'debunked' as in impossible but that map is a giant fairy tale of wild speculation with nothing to back it up.

For example anatolia does have some r1b but celts moved into anatolia only in roman times ffs. That could and probably does explain 100% of any r1b in the area. If it doesn't then it is probably hittite leftovers and such, which again could have come from the west. If it came from the east then it is surprising it never went to india like r1a, never went into arabia etc. etc. etc.

[HillY35]

I'm sure there are similar threads on this forum, talking about this very quesion.
My two cents is that there is an ancient sculpture (not sure if Roman or Greek) named, "The Dying Gaul." The face of the man in that piece of artwork appears very "Celtic" to me. I use the word "Celtic" to mean that it doesn't look "Germanic" at all, when one considers the faces of the Irish or Scottish.