Genetics, Archaeology & Linguistics support PIE homeland near Proto-Uralic homeland

[Peterski]

Location of the Republic of Karelia:

http://www.balticuniv.uu.se/images/stories/images/Karelia/Karelia.png

Now let's remind everyone where the oldest so far discovered R1a1 was found:

Mesolithic hunters (5500 BCE), Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov island, Lake Onega (Karelia)

Data on genetic similarity of Karelian hunters from 7500 years ago to modern populations:

Poles (!) are most genetically similar to that hunter. Other similar groups include both Indo-European and Finno-Ugric speakers:

http://www.fotoszok.pl/upload/65982406.jpg

Vepsians (Veps) live in southern Karelia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vepsians

Interesting. This seems to support the theory about close connections between Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Uralic languages.

"The Indo-European Homeland from Linguistic and Archaeological Perspectives" (published in 2015):

http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-linguist-030514-124812


The strongest geographic indicator of the location where PIE was spoken is the fact that PIE and Proto-Uralic (PU) appear to have been geographic neighbors. They had core vocabulary items that look suspiciously similar ('name', 'water') and similar-looking pronouns (Ringe 1997; Janhunen 2000, 2001; Koivulehto 2001; Kallio 2001; Salminen 2001; Witzel 2003; Parpola 2012). One kind of relationship between PIE and PU that would account for the apparently shared pronouns, noun endings, and basic vocabulary would be ancestral: The two protolanguages could have shared a very ancient common ancestor, perhaps a broadly related set of intergrading dialects spoken by hunters at the end of the Pleistocene.

And here is what Scandinavian scientists say (published in 2015):

http://www.astanatimes.com/2015/02/scandinavian-team-searches-indo-european-homeland-kazakhstan-dna/

http://dienekes.blogspot.fi/2015/02/scandinavian-team-looking-for-indo.html


"During the past 15 years, the Y-DNA R1a haplogroup has been characterised as a genetic signal of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. The theory now looks more plausible than ever, thanks to recent discoveries about its structure and phylogeography. Moreover, the Y-DNA R1a haplogroup has been found in numerous ancient remains supposedly belonging to early Indo-Europeans," the press release explains.

Perhaps PIE hunters migrated south to the forest-steppe and steppe, where they became pastoralists, domesticated horse, etc.

[Hong Key]

Interesting. This seems to support the theory about close connections between Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Uralic languages.
[/url]

I wonder if it's true, I just read about that a few weeks ago, never heard it before. Should make Ukko happy.

Nostratic languages

Nostratic is a macrofamily, or hypothetical large-scale language family, that includes many of the indigenous language families of Eurasia, although its exact composition and structure vary among proponents. In its more restricted, current form, it includes the Indo-European, Uralic, Altaic and Kartvelian languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostratic_languages

[Peterski]

Thanks Hong Key! Very interesting.

Maybe PIE and PU = one of major sub-divisions of Nostratic ???

The other one being Altaic and Kartvelian ???

===========================

Or maybe it was just THE Nostratic itself (without further subdivisions).

[Prisoner Of Ice]

That doesn't mean much, because obviously they could well have migrated too, and they basically had to have, really, because of something called an ice age. There are cultural practices shared between uralics and iran.

[Peterski]

Well it is of course possible.

For example haplogroup R appears to have migrated back-and-forth from northern to southern Eurasia at least several times.

Since the Mal'ta boy in Siberia.

[Peikko]

Jaska would know more about the Indo-European loan words in proto-Finnic and proto-Uralic. But overall this does not come as a surprise to anyone.

[Hong Key]

Thanks Hong Key! Very interesting.

Maybe PIE and PU = one of major sub-divisions of Nostratic ???

The other one being Altaic and Kartvelian ???

===========================

Or maybe it was just THE Nostratic itself (without further subdivisions).

I won't lie, i have no idea but it seems to me that THEY don't know either.

Just to throw something else out there.
Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales
http://www.amazon.com/Baltic-Origins-Homers-Epic-Tales-ebook/dp/B0068Q6UE0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6QPtcZWBPs

[Peikko]

That doesn't mean much, because obviously they could well have migrated too, and they basically had to have, really, because of something called an ice age. There are cultural practices shared between uralics and iran.

Do you know the background of Finnish word "orja"?

[Peterski]

Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales

This is not improbable.

Those who brought Greek language to Greece came probably from what is now northern Russia:
(North-Western part of which is adjacent to the Baltic Sea)

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek


The Greek branch

Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_Phenomenon


Seima-Turbino phenomenon refers to a pattern of burial sites dating around 1500 BC found across northern Eurasia, from Finland to Mongolia, which has suggested a common point of cultural origin, advanced metal working technology, and unexplained rapid migration. The buried were nomadic warriors and metal-workers, travelling on horseback or two-wheeled chariots. The name derives from the Seima (Sejma) cemetery at the confluence of the Oka River and Volga River. These cultures are noted for being nomadic forest and steppe societies with metal working, sometimes without having first developed agricultural methods.[2] The development of this metalworking ability appears to have taken place quite quickly.[3] (...) It is conjectured that changes in climate in this region around 2000 BC and the ensuing ecological, economic and political changes triggered a rapid and massive migration westward into northeast Europe, eastward into China and southward into Vietnam and Thailand across a frontier of some 4,000 miles.[4] This migration took place in just five to six generations and led to peoples from Finland in the west to Thailand in the east employing the same metal working technology and, in some areas, horse breeding and riding.[4] However, further excavations and research in Ban Chiang and Ban Non Wat, Thailand argue the idea that Seima-Turbino brought metal workings into southeast Asia is based on inaccurate and unreliable radiocarbon dating, and remains a hotly debated theory among archaeologists.[6]

Seima-Turbino could be connected with both Indo-European and Uralic languages:


It is further conjectured that the same migrations spread the Uralic group of languages across Europe and Asia: some 39 languages of this group are still extant, including Hungarian, Finnish, Estonian and Lappish.[4] However, recent genetic testings of sites in south Siberia and Kazakhstan (Andronovo horizon) would rather support a spreading of the bronze technology via Indo-European migrations eastwards, as this technology was well known for quite a while in western regions.[7][8]

[Hong Key]

Do you know the background of Finnish word "orja"?

???

[antipodean]

(The homeland of Indoeuropean looks like maybe India?)
The homeland of proto-IE and of proto-Uralic language families is Sumeria!?:

Ziusudra/Xisuthros/Ziudsuddu "flood survivor, sacrificed an ox, king, translated to Dilmun/faraway, granted immortality like gods, he who saw life" (Sumerian)?
Dyaus (pitar)/Dyaush(-pitir)/Dyavaprthivi "bright sky/heaven/universal father, abstract, creator, [from cold/bleak north]" (Indian).
Dyaos Pita (Iranian).
Tiyaz Papaz (Palaic).
Shiush/(d)Sius/Siu(-summin) (Hittite).
Zeus (pater)/Zayas/Zas / Ievs/Jesus/Jeoud / Dios/Diwo/Diuja "head of pantheon, sent the Flood, universal, through him comes all mortal sovereignty, sacrifice of bulls, eagle, weather, clouds, rain, lightning, thunderbolts, father of gods & men, enormous sexual vigour" (Greek).
Dei-patyro(s) (Illyria).
Jupiter/Jove(s Pater)/Jovis "head of pantheon, thunder, lightning, light of day, stone" (Roman).
Diev(a)s "sky, farmer, he 1st set free the sun" (Baltic).
Tiw(az)/Tig/Ziu(men)/Zio "Mars, sky, war, law & order, right hand bitten off" (German).
Tyr "war, shining, glistening, peasant" (Norse).


Papsimnunbada "mighty father, Adar, son of Enlil" (Sumer-Akkadian).
Apam Napat "grandchild of the waters, fresh water" (Indian & Iranian).

Lahar "god of cattle, ears of corn sprouting from shoulders, ram" (Sumerian).
[Lahurabtil (Elamite)?]
Prajapati "lord of creatures/all-living, 10 Prajapatis, androgynous, creator of world, sexual organ" (Indian).
Priapos "fertility, mariners, Satyr-like creature, pronounced genitals" (Greek/Phrygian).
Pramzimas/Pramziwas?


Papnigingara "war, boundary stone, syncretised with Ninurta" (Sumerian).
Parjanya "rain, syncretised with Indra" (Indian).
Perun (Slav).
Perkunas (Baltic).
Fjorgyn(n) (Norse/German).


Urshanabi/Sursunabu "boatman, ferries daily across the waters of death which divide the garden of the sun from the paradise where Utnapishtim lives forever" (Sumerian/Akkadian).
Varuna "Protean, Poseidonian, water(s)/seas, coastal regions, trees, rides on a fish, sea monster, chariot, house of clay, coverer, winds, west(ern), shines at night, moon, night sky, heaven, seasons" (Indian/Dravidian).
Ouranos/Uranus "shining, heaven/sky, primordial, drawing near, spreading out in all directions" (Greek).
Vertumnus "seasons, gardens, orchards" (Italic)?


Nimrod/Nimrud/Nembroth "rebel/against Lord, gibbor/mighty hunter (of men), son of Cush, great-grandson of Noah, subduer of spotted one, built tower of Babel as refuge shortly after Flood, tetrapolis, 1st world leader, [lead people from Ararat to Shinar], connected with Asshur, some make Shem/Seth his opponent, built Calah, corresponded with Cain, founded 1st civilisation [~ agriculture?]" (Hebrew/Biblical)?
Ninurta/Enurta/"Ninib" "horned helmet, hero of pantheon, vs dragon, built mountains from stones, [chase], warrior/[battle], closely linked with battles between good and evil, [temple at Calah], plough/farmer/cultivation of crops, a.k.a. Ningirsu/Nimirrud" (Sumerian)?
Numitorem "sky, animals, forests, culture hero, growing crops saving deluge survivors from starvation" (Samoyed/Uralic/Vogul)

[Peikko]

(The homeland of Indoeuropean looks like maybe India?)
What? I don't think so.


Perun (Slav).
Perkunas (Baltic).
Fjorgyn(n) (Norse/German).
)
Perkele in Finnish.

[antipodean]

In the examples i gave the oldest is Sumerian then 2nd oldest Indian [Indus] (though Elamite may come in between).
Oldest Ziusudra, 2nd oldest Dyauspitar.
2nd oldest Parjanya
2nd oldest Apam Napat.
etc.
Theres is no doubt the India are the oldest (P)IE deities from our lists.
Perhaps you had in mind the proto-Indo-european vocalbulary suggests a different geo-climate area. But we know that Mohenjo-daro has evidence of wetter cooler climate.
I could be wrong about India. But i am not wrong about Sumeria.

for fuller lists see my posts at
http://historum.com/blogs/rob+banks/30940-sumerian-origins-all-nations-myths.html
and
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34927

[blogen]

No evidence onto this, because the very few possible PIE/Uralic loanwords are random. The only fact is the neighborhood between the proto-Indoiranians and the Uralic peoples.

[Fakirbakir]

No evidence onto this, because the very few possible PIE/Uralic loanwords are random. The only fact is the neighborhood between the proto-Indoiranians and the Uralic peoples.

Take a look at this (I quoted T. Feher):

Smolensk region, 4000 BC; Y: 1 x R1a1; mt: 1 x H
Smolensk region, 2500 BC; Y: 1 x R1a1, 1 x N1c; mt: 2 x H2
Pskov region, 2500 BC; Y: 1 x R1a1; mt: 1xH2
Pskov region, 8-5th century BC; Y: 1 x R1a1; mt: 1 x H
Pskov region, 8-10th century AD; Y: 1 x N1c; mt: 1 x H2

"The most notable things from my perspective are: the very early (6000 years) presence of R1a1 in Western Russia, much before Indo-Europeans and likely before Finno-Ugrics arrived to the territory. The 4500 years old co-existence of R1a1 and N1c in Western Russia. We would need deep-SNP results to further refine the conclusions, but proto-Finno-Ugrians being a mix of N1c and R1a seems more likely than the mainstream theory on "N1c only"."

[Hong Key]

In the examples i gave the oldest is Sumerian then 2nd oldest Indian [Indus] (though Elamite may come in between).
Oldest Ziusudra, 2nd oldest Dyauspitar.
2nd oldest Parjanya
2nd oldest Apam Napat.
etc.
Theres is no doubt the India are the oldest (P)IE deities from our lists.
Perhaps you had in mind the proto-Indo-european vocalbulary suggests a different geo-climate area. But we know that Mohenjo-daro has evidence of wetter cooler climate.
I could be wrong about India. But i am not wrong about Sumeria.

for fuller lists see my posts at
http://historum.com/blogs/rob+banks/30940-sumerian-origins-all-nations-myths.html
and
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34927

Not really into India as PIE/IE but I do think you have something with Sumer/IE religion connection. I would laugh because Euro Heathens (and I have a general respect for Heathenry) would complain about Middle Eastern religions (Abrahamatic) invading Europe but I would think to myself IE heathen religions are also an invading non indigenous religion into Europe because of it's Sumerian (and maybe Egyption) connection. Now of course if the Sumerians were White or very Whitish then my laughter stops. :)

I don't like the human sacrifice part of those religions. Mighty warrior aspect is fine by me though.

[antipodean]

sorry it doubled posted. It had said i can't post until after 20 seconds and to try again and now i find it had posted that one. (I had briefly left and come back to post reply.) Can't find/see a delete post, sorry for waste of space.

[antipodean]

Thanks HK.
Yes the Sumerians were a mixture of Combe-Capelids ["proto-Kurd"] and Mediterranids [Admu] according to JR Baker and other sources [and "no sign of Mongoloid or negroid", though others suggest Turanian and Dravidian]. (So was Mohenjo-daro/Indus and Sialk/Elam).
Sumerian is usually classified as Ural-Altaic, but some have suggested Indo-european/"Japhetic" links (David Myatt, LA Waddell, B Hrozny, Childe?)
Odinism had human sacrifice (Chadwick)?

I'm pretty sure the oldest of the Indoeuropean deities (excld Sumerian) correspondences is India (Indus). Unless maybe just the language/mythology spread not the race? or there may have been a common (P)IE homeland between (Hattina and) Sumer (and Iran/Elam) and India, maybe to the north(-west/-center/-east). Alexander the Great thought his ancestors came from India. Indus has similarilities with later Greek/Aryan cutlure/s (art etc). NS Germany suggested Tibet as IE homeland.

Not just Sumer (and maybe Egypt). There is also Atlantis island/city (S America/Tiahuanaco) connections. Vanir and Aesir.

[antipodean]

There may be some true/right in this topic/thread after all. I've just been working on the Ezekiel 38/39 prophecy (because working on the table of nations of Genesis 10) and it seems to closely agree with this topic/thread here. Our best guess for the Ezekiel 38 nations matches is:

gomer ("standing for all the family, complete", sides north, all his squadrons)
~ europeans/caucasoid/human/homo? ((Thraco-)Cimmerians/Cymry/Cimbri? France? [& UK??])

magog (Gog, "ceiling/roof, mountain", far recesses north / north parts, n(e), wall, Rosh "chief/head")
~ russia/nordic/geo-political heartland? [from caucasus/Gogarene]?

javan/yawan ("wine" / "miry/clay")
~ greece/(w) mediterraneans/ionians/westerners/south?

tubal/tuval ("tumult, producer, flow", Ariphi & Kesed)
~ caucasus/tobolsk/iberi/vulcan/tauri?

meshech/meshek ("draw out, scatter seed", sea not mentioned elsewhere)
~ russia/muscovy/caspian?

togarmah ("house of", "you will break" / "gnaw a bone", all his bands, uttermost north, 10 sons, great river Dubnee)
~ German(ic)s/alpine/donar/thor/hermion/"10 barbarian nations of western Roman empire (10 horns/toes)"?

tarshish ("solid/rocky" / "sontemplate", merchants/ships, riches/metals)
~ spain/tartessos/tartarus? &/or italy/etruscans/peter "rock/stone"? (tarsus/tarhuntassa?)

kittim ("bruisers/break", fleet, islands, used for all islands and greater part of sea coasts/coastlands, king Abianus, king Latinus)
~ usa &/or uk/celts/cruitne/albion? [from Crete/Krit/Keftiou? or/and Hithlah/Italac / Hittites / Italics?]

But there are still puzzles to work out , because the Indoeuropean deities still seem to come from Indian [Indus] (in turn from Sumerian).

see http://historum.com/blogs/rob+banks/30939-table-nations-genesis-10.html

[antipodean]

It looks like i was somewhat wrong. (Also i seem to have mistakenly confused the meaning of riphath with raamah re the horse mane.) I still haven't worked out the table of nations, but our temporary theory for now is:

Gomer = r1b (&/or r1a?) / europeans/caucasoids?. Fits meanings "standing for whole family", "to bring to an end".

Ashkenaz = nordics (& indoeuropean?). (Because the meaning of the name ("a man as sprinkled", "fire that spreads") seemingly may match their hair/skin & other things like historical etc; and fits as first son of first son of firt son.) Askr?

Togarmah = Donar/Thor/Tengri? / German(ic)s? / Turks (r1b)?

Magog = Georgia/G (&/or Russia or nordic/indoeuropean/r1a?). Because land of Gog/God may fit George? Because roof/ceiling/mountain/rising fits Caucasus (or Russia or north). Because was/is a Gogarene near there. Georgia(n(s))/haplogroup G stands out in maps. Not sure if Odin/Wodan/God(an) might connect with Gog?

Javan = (western) mediterreans/Greeks.

Elishah ~ Hellas?

Tarshish(-Kittim) ~ America/s (& Atlantis?) &/or Spain/Tartessos &/or Italy/Etruscans?

(Tarshish-)Kittim ~ Americas (& Atlantis?)/USA/UK?/islands/Crete.

Meshech &/or Tubal in Ezek 38 seem to be in vicinity of Russia/Slavs/r1a?

However there are difficulties (eg the haplogroups/dna (eg i1)). So everything i have said is only tentative and may well be very wrong (yet again/still).
Anyway, the meanings seem to fit the peoples/lands natures/etc.