High Ashkenazi IQ partially derived from Haplogroup K?

[Hamlet]

To quote 'Maciamo', who has notably helped in making countless maps concerning haplogroups on Eupedia: "What picked my interest is that half of Ashkenazi Jews of Western and Central European origin, and one third of Eastern European origin belonged to haplogroup K, compared to an average of only about 5% in Europe and 6.5% in Germany. How could this have happened? Genetic drift? Natural selection? This is how I remembered that haplogroup K, and especially K1, had been associated with higher brain pH, better brain connectivity and higher IQ. Several studies have determined that Jewish people had the highest average IQ of any ethnic group, and there is no need to demonstrate that the number of famous Jewish scientists, economists, academics, Nobel laureates, etc. is disproportionately high compared to their share of the world population (even if we only look at developed countries). There are surely other genetic factors than merely mitochondrial DNA, but if mtDNA does play a role in intelligence could this haplogroup have been positively selected within the Jewish population over the centuries to cope with the more intellectual occupations that the Jews have tended to specialise in? [Or was the haplogroup present in the Ashkenazi population at a high percentage in the first place, meaning that, even without the accidental eugenics that made the Ashkenazi IQ what it is, the Ashkenazi IQ is naturally higher?]"

http://i49.tinypic.com/2vtu04k.jpg

[Sockorer]

I assume the reason why the Ashkenazim have such a large amount of K mtDNA is because of the small maternal founding population and the fact that Jewishness is passed through the maternal line.

mtDNA having an effect on IQ seems unlikely to me.

[Nehellenia]

I'm haplogroup K and have an IQ of 118 but that's just a coincidence, because i have a lot of maternal average and less cousins, i don't think haplogroup can correlate such a thing :P
My maternal grandma has an IQ of 108 and my mum 95... what alcoholism can do to you :/

[Sockorer]

I'm haplogroup K and have an IQ of 118 but that's just a coincidence, because i have a lot of maternal average and less cousins, i don't think haplogroup can correlate such a thing :P

It's possible for it to correlate with it, for example if you lumped Ashkenazim with say the French and then tested this group for mtDNA and IQ; you would find a correlation between mtDNA and IQ. But the mtDNA probably doesn't cause the difference.

[Nehellenia]

It's possible for it to correlate with it, for example if you lumped Ashkenazim with say the French and then tested this group for mtDNA and IQ; you would find a correlation between mtDNA and IQ. But the mtDNA probably doesn't cause the difference.

The IQ's between my sisters and i and my maternal cousins is vast, 3 of my cousins are considered intellectually disabled or of low IQ (i only have one aunty) so it is a contentious mystery in my family, since everyone else is relatively normal, my grandma blames it on their dad's genes, but can it go that far lol?

[Sockorer]

The IQ's between my sisters and i and my maternal cousins is vast, 3 of my cousins are considered intellectually disabled or of low IQ (i only have one aunty) so it is a contentious mystery in my family, since everyone else is relatively normal, my grandma blames it on their dad's genes, but can it go that far lol?

Well then that settles it, clearly mtDNA K is the superior group and we should make soap out of all none Ks.

[Nehellenia]

Well then that settles it, clearly mtDNA K is the superior group and we should make soap out of all none Ks.

Says the haplogroup J, heheh xD

[Sockorer]

Says the haplogroup J, heheh xD

I think I would make a great bar of soap.

[Nehellenia]

I think I would make a great bar of soap.

Haha, i don't have desires for human soap, you can keep your body insulation. xD

[Hamlet]

Is it a coincidence, though, that possessing haplogroup K correlates with a higher brain pH, which in turn correlates with better brain connectivity and a higher IQ?

[Peterski]

According to H. Harpending & G. Cochran Ashkenazi IQ is not derived but evolved under selective pressures during the Middle Ages.

They suggest more intelligent Jews had more surviving children than less intelligent Jews and the average IQ was gradually increasing.

Check:

"The 10,000 Year Explosion - How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution":

https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/the-10000-year-explosion-how-civilization-accelerated-human-evolution-2009-by-gregory-cochran-henry-harpending.pdf

"Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence":

http://web.mit.edu/fustflum/documents/papers/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf

==================================

That was the case not only with Jews but also with other European Medieval populations, only perhaps to a lesser degree.

Studies on Medieval family size show that wealthy people had more surviving children than poor people throughout most of Europe.

In Poland-Lithuania of the 15th - 16th centuries wealthy peasants had 1,6 - 2 surviving sons per father, while peasants of average wealth had 1,1 - 1,5 (where replacement fertility = 1,05 sons per father = 2,1 children per father). Poor peasants probably had sub-replacement fertility. That was more related to wealth than to class, because medium nobles had 2 - 2,1 (the same as wealthy peasants) and magnates (very rich nobles) had 2,9. Poor nobles probably had less than 2.

In 16th - 17th centuries in England fathers with assets at death lower than 25 pounds had sub-replacement fertility (less than 2,1 surviving children).

By surviving I mean surviving to adulthood, so that they could have their own children.

====================

From Nicholas Wade, "A Troublesome Inheritance...", New York 2014:

(...) Clark has uncovered the simple genetic mechanism through which the Malthusian economy wrought these changes on the English population: the rich had more surviving children than did the poor. From a study of wills made between 1585 and 1638, he finds that will makers with £9 or less to leave their heirs had, on average, just under two children. The number of heirs rose steadily with assets, such that men with more than £1,000 in their gift, who formed the wealthiest asset class, left just over four children. The English population was fairly stable in size from 1200 to 1760. In this context, the fact that the rich were having more children than the poor led to the interesting phenomenon of unremitting social descent. Most children of the rich had to sink in the social scale, given that there were too many of them to remain in the upper class. Their social descent had the far-reaching genetic consequence that they carried with them inheritance for the same behaviors that had made their parents rich. The values of the upper middle class - nonviolence, literacy, thrift and patience - were thus infused into lower economic classes and throughout society. Generation after generation, they gradually became the values of the society as a whole. This explains the steady decrease in violence and increase in literacy that Clark has documented for the English population. Moreover, the behaviors emerged gradually over several centuries, a time course more typical of an evolutionary change than a cultural change. (...)

http://s7.postimg.org/mice5ufh7/Rich_had_more_children.png

And here the data for Poland-Lithuania:

http://homoeconomicus.uwb.edu.pl/pdf/Struktury_demograficzne.pdf

From page 21 (number of sons per father who lived to their adulthood):

http://s4.postimg.org/aqlvs7wwd/Poland_growth.png

^ Note that English graph shows children per family (couple), while Polish graph shows sons per father.

So in case of English graph replacement fertility is 2,1 while in case of Polish graph it is 1,05.

4 surviving children in English graph, is equivalent to 2 sons living to adulthood in Polish graph.

[Longbowman]

Whilst both K and Ashkenazi is superior (although Ashkenazi even more superior when mixed) the two are not related, no. K might give some defence against HIV progression though.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

MTDNA is important for intelligence, and faulty mtdna will make you retarded. I had not heard about K being associated with intelligence or the association between K and high ph in the brain and intelligence (which is a combination I find puzzling).

Of course keep in mind that Maciamo is an utter retard with no logical ability whatsoever. He is a polyglot but that is only impressive to people who value credentials over real intelligence. He also said "picked my interest" instead of piqued, which I find hilarious. Though I sometimes putting the wrong word into sentence these days and reversing order word when typing fast, I have to admit.

I seriously doubt that jews got their intelligence (such as it is) through some kind of founder effect, or that they got mtdna K this way. If they had, then you'd see a lot of K in sephardi and even ethiopian jews, and higher than average intelligence in those groups, but you don't. Intelligence comes mainly from the mother due to the fact that intelligence genes don't function if they are not homogenous, they are recessive. Most of the jews coming to europe took natives wives who converted. It's very doubtful that K comes from outside europe except in the neolithic time. It also centers in these areas.

So if jews do have an above average intelligence, then it probably comes because they are actually preserving medieval German DNA. Largest brains by far are in Germany, and even more so in medieval times. In general africans have much smaller brains, and jews are in the middle, with true nordics and celts being somewhere between jews and pure germans.

There's been studies showing that polish americans have IQ average of 109 in the past, and for religions, anglicans scored 116 and catholic 112, and whole country of switzerland at 112. These are REAL IQ tests not estimates based on PISA scores (which don't mean shit). So I don't think there's any reality to jews being smarter than whites on average, the problem these days is they are measuring southern europeans and even middle easterners as 'white', while real whites will be protestant or irish catholic only. When studies look at these groups (of actual whites) the story changes completely.

[Longbowman]

I'm butthurt Jews are smarter than Irish folk

Don't be, bro. We're benevolent secret puppetmasters .

As for K and not-being-from-a-bottleneck, AJs have K at 35%, no one else has it higher than 15% (in the UK and Middle East) so we have to assume it is, indeed, bottleneck stuff.

As Litvin will tell you the link between cranial capacity and IQ is pretty low, plus AJs have close IBD sharing to North Italians but not Germans. Coincidentally, Northern Italians have the highest IQs in Europe.

[safinator]

K2a mtdna master race here, never measured IQ but it's high obviously :cool:

[Longbowman]

K2a mtdna master race here, never measured IQ but it's high obviously :cool:

K1 is superior (K2 is common amongst AJs too) even if my maternal line isn't AJ.

Melonhead has to agree as it's also common in NW Europe. He might be K himself.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Don't be, bro. We're benevolent secret puppetmasters .


Everyone is smarter than the Irish unfortunately, but muh personal IQ is still higher than yours and no one can touch my super aspie powers. Only thing I have ever been insecure about is my high pitch voice, otherwise I am as close to a perfect genetic specimen as God would allow.



As for K and not-being-from-a-bottleneck, AJs have K at 35%, no one else has it higher than 15% (in the UK and Middle East) so we have to assume it is, indeed, bottleneck stuff.


No one defined how? A lot of german jews here have blond hair and blue eyes, moreso than even germans do. The saxons and prussians dominated the merchant class, and it doesn't take much guesswork to imagine rich jews would intentionally marry into what they called high society to gain respectability and passability.



As Litvin will tell you the link between cranial capacity and IQ is pretty low,


Well, he/she is wrong. The correct value is 0.4 correlation with IQ and brain size.



plus AJs have close IBD sharing to North Italians but not Germans. Coincidentally, Northern Italians have the highest IQs in Europe.

They don't get it from europe, though. Europeans got it from levant instead, obviously. Greece is heavily influenced by near east from neolithic times, and the rest of southern europe from historic times.

[Human]

Maciamo is an idiot

[Longbowman]

Everyone is smarter than the Irish unfortunately, but muh personal IQ is still higher than yours and no one can touch my super aspie powers. Only thing I have ever been insecure about is my high pitch voice, otherwise I am as close to a perfect genetic specimen as God would allow.

Yes, your IQ is conveniently one point higher after a personal recount, I remember.


No one defined how? A lot of german jews here have blond hair and blue eyes, moreso than even germans do. The saxons and prussians dominated the merchant class, and it doesn't take much guesswork to imagine rich jews would intentionally marry into what they called high society to gain respectability and passability.

Jews have quite a lot of blue eyes, but not as much as contemporary Germans. Jews that marry into high society usually don't have Jewish kids.


They don't get it from europe, though. Europeans got it from levant instead, obviously. Greece is heavily influenced by near east from neolithic times, and the rest of southern europe from historic times.

With Northern Italy, but not (or to a lesser degree) other parts of Southern Europe, please do try to learn something about genetics.

[Morena]

I have a hard time believing this. I'm also of haplogroup K (although K2) and I can tell you that my mother's family pretty dumb. Outliners, perhaps? :icon_lol:

[Peter Nirsch]

bullshits.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

There was a discussion about this recently centered around an article and some info that NotACop posted. The bottom line was that it wasn't overall brain/brain capacity size but it's proportion to body mass and the "amount of neuron connections". I won't pretend to know anything about the later part but the former was explained due to the amount it would take to faciliate proper movement for bigger limbs/body sizes.

Better nutrition, activity and a need to remember crucial skills and other information would have also made paleolithic people "smarter" and it also showed in these brain capacity to body proportion rations which were obviously much better.

Yeah, I know all about it. To ideal measure the brain you'd do it on a part by part basis, basically the size of the various parts turns out th matter a great deal for people's abilities in those areas. Very social people have larger parts of the brain, math guys have huge parietal lobes and so on.

Encephalization is nothing new, but even without factoring that in, this is still the case. I have a big metastudy on brain size and IQ I posted some time ago, but every time I post some 'racis' study it gets taken down from whatever news agency made the original article, and the studies themselves are usually behind a paywall.

The only ones that argue against it use some hilariously retarded methodology that's designed to fail. Like they will take twins, measure the differences in brain size, then look at the IQ difference. Well obviously the brain size difference in twins will be a lot smaller than the error rate on IQ tests, and it doesn't take into account what I detailed earlier anyway. IE it's not overall size, but size of individual parts. The smarter people actually have a different brain form, and that is the key. That won't show up measuring between twins, but it still shows up when used as a general indicator.

Anyway, africans have much smaller brains, and outside NW europe everyone has much shallower eye sockets which ALSO means they have much smaller prefrontal cortex. Guys like mao tse tung look like they are smart, but that they would murder you for ten cents. You know it instinctively but probably can't guess why you think this. Well, he has no morality center, but huge parietal lobes. This is what causes the archetypical 'big eyes' in comic book villains. This is your brain telling you this person will kill you.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

What I'm saying is the size of individual parts matters, too, but the correlation is still so strong that it has a 0.40 correlation. The only parts of the brain larger due to height after geneally motor function areas. Neanderthals on the other hand were much more encephalized than most people today, though the brains kept growing right up til 20k years ago when they took a sharp nose dive.