The genome-wide structure of the Jewish people

[Zyklop]

New autosomal study that sheds some light on intra-European relationship and admixture.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TBDgV2r3hxI/AAAAAAAACck/sYi1shNB8bc/s1600/westeurasianpca.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/Zyklop/46730767.jpg

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/nature09103.html

[Äike]

I wanted to post this, but looks like you did it first. :thumb001:

This is a study which is made mostly by Estonians.

[Ibericus]

More on that study :

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_tjcMrcnI/AAAAAAAACb0/iMP8YJM3D8E/s1600/pca.jpg


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_8jYWZQRI/AAAAAAAACcc/3quI0JWu2ls/s1600/admixture-caucasoid.jpg

[Thulsa Doom]

More on that study :

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_tjcMrcnI/AAAAAAAACb0/iMP8YJM3D8E/s1600/pca.jpg


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_8jYWZQRI/AAAAAAAACcc/3quI0JWu2ls/s1600/admixture-caucasoid.jpg

Now, why another large study on jews if I may ask?

The history of the jews is already really well documented and researched, and there isn´t any big questions left.

But those charts are pretty interesting. One can see that Europeans are not middle eastern farmers (the latest fad among geneticists). The Balkan people and the Italians has a "drag" towards the ME, indicating a ancient colonization, but thats it.

Secondly: Any Indo-European genetic expansion from the Black Sea region can´t be seen either. Those Kurganists should have clustered with the Tjerkess people (Adyghe). That Kurgan theory was pretty stupid anyway, lol, some Steppe warriors attacking some stone age people living in some frozen march at the Baltic Coast.

[Äike]

But those charts are pretty interesting. One can see that Europeans are not middle eastern farmers (the latest fad among geneticists). The Balkan people and the Italians has a "drag" towards the ME, indicating a ancient colonization, but thats it.

Demic diffusion by Middle-Eastern farmers/Indo-Europeans, ares outside the blue area just adopted Indo-European languages without demic diffusion, Kalevi Wiik has said that there might have been Indo-Europeans in the Balkan area before the Middle-Eastern farmers came to Europe, but the Middle-Eastern farmers replaced the IE languages of the Balkan area with the languages they brought.
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/710/demicdiffusion.png

Europe 5500BC:
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3467/image7mp.jpg

[Osweo]

Wiik's failure is his inability to countenance that one, or several, linguistic families may have been lost, almost without trace. There is no reason to prefer his 'survivalist' idea, especially when there are clear indications that Saami have a strange western componant genetically, thereby scotching the theories for total Uralicism across the Old North. To automatically label this 'Vasconic' is groundless.

Great materials, Guys! :thumbs

[Äike]

Wiik's failure is his inability to countenance that one, or several, linguistic families may have been lost, almost without trace. There is no reason to prefer his 'survivalist' idea, especially when there are clear indications that Saami have a strange western componant genetically, thereby scotching the theories for total Uralicism across the Old North. To automatically label this 'Vasconic' is groundless.

Great materials, Guys! :thumbs

Looks like you haven't read his theories... ;)


6. A new mixed northern population
A key factor in the evolution of the people living in Finland and
neighbouring areas was the establishment of a land link between Eastern
Karelia and northernmost Fennoscandia. Ca. 9,500–9,000 BC the ice
covering Fennoscandia had shrunk to such a degree that the people of these
areas were able to make contact with each other by the new land
connection.
About 7,500 BC the two different populations began to intermarry
(see Map 10). These populations comprised (1) the “New Western
Europeans” (the northernmost representatives of which we can also call the
“Old Northern Sami” or “Old Komsa people”) that originated primarily
from the Iberian refuge and (2) the “New Eastern Europeans” that had
come mainly from the Ukrainian refuge. As a result of miscegenation the
“New Northern Sami” came into being. It seems likely that a new northsouth
genetic-anthropological continuum was thus created where the
genetic composition of the inhabitants was related to where they lived. The
farther north the people lived, the greater the proportion of “Old Northern
Sami” genes they had and the farther south they lived, the greater the
proportion of “New Eastern European” genes. This continuum is still
apparent today insofar as the proportion of dark people increases as one
gradually proceeds farther north while the predominance of fair-skinned
people increases the farther south one goes.

http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/sky/julkaisut/SKY2006_1/1FK60.1.9.WIIK.pdf

[Osweo]

Looks like you haven't read his theories... ;)
http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/sky/julkaisut/SKY2006_1/1FK60.1.9.WIIK.pdf
I read some stuff years ago. I'll read again....

[Agrippa]

Well, the study is highly interesting, but unfortunately some populations are left out and f.e. Russians have zero "Southern European-Levantine" influence, but Mongoloid - I just ask myself from which region these Russian sample came from?

Also we might see three big influences making up Europeans:
Palaeo-Mesolithic
Neolithic from the Levante
Neolithic from Anatolia-West Asia

Interestingly, the West Asian component is present in all Europeans but Basques and Sardes, so the two "least Indoeuropean genetically influenced people of Europe" in this study.

But both have the Southern European-Levantine influence - a huge one.

One speculation I made up on this is, that there are, like suggested, two ways of Neolithic expansion, one along the coasts and largely related to the Cardium Pottery:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Cardial_map.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery

Southern European-Levantine influence.

The second coming from the East, Anatolia-Iran area, entering Eastern Europe-steppe area, probably also along the rivers of the South East and mixing up with local Mesolithic groups, which expand on in "mixed waves" like a pyramid scheme, but with the original West Asian component surviving in those carrying the "movement" on - LBK, Corded, Kurgan.

This movement might be related to the Indoeuropeans and the influence made it up to the Orcadians and all Indoeuropean Europeans - whereas the Southern-Coastal route made it to the Orkneys too, but not to the Baltoslavs, which in turn received Mongoloid (Uralic) admixture, most likely being the constitutive element for the Eastbaltid-Lappoid variation.

So Indoeuropeans most likely came from the East and were a mixture of the local Mesolithic and West Asian newcomers originally, with the first component usually dominating and replacing other Mesolithics in other parts of Europe during the expansion, in which the West Asian element was carried on to all Indoeuropeans - only the non-Indoeuropean, more isolated groups don't have it like the Basques and Sardes.

Also we see, like expected, that the Aethiopids are more Europid than Negrid, the Semitic Near Easterners have a component on their own and Negrid influence in many areas, the (Eastern-Southern) Bantus have like v. Eickstedt classified Europoid admixture too and Uzbeks, Uygurs and Hazara are about half Europid-half Mongolid.

[Ibericus]

Also we might see three big influences making up Europeans:
Palaeo-Mesolithic
Neolithic from the Levante
Neolithic from Anatolia-West Asia

Interestingly, the West Asian component is present in all Europeans but Basques and Sardes, so the two "least Indoeuropean genetically influenced people of Europe" in this study.
Basques are not the least indoeuropean genetically, considering 88+% of basques are R1b-P312


But both have the Southern European-Levantine influence - a huge one.
No you are wrong. In the case of Basques it is absent , in the case of Sardinians, yes it is huge. Sardinia is in the middle of the mediterranean and has received more levantine influence. See here, the light blue in Basques is absent :

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_8jYWZQRI/AAAAAAAACcc/3quI0JWu2ls/s1600/admixture-caucasoid.jpg

[Agrippa]

Basques are not the least indoeuropean genetically, considering 88+% of basques are R1b-P312

Well, going after that study, R1b-P312 is probably not Indoeuropean or not entirely so at least...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)#R1b1b2a1a2_.28R-P312.29

What wouldn't be a big surprise if its Mesolithic or pre-Indoeuropean Neolithic.


See here, the light blue in Basques is absent

Thats "the problem" actually, because its present in all Indoeuropean Europeans, even the Orcadians, Russians, Belorussians and of course neighbouring Spaniards (!).

Look at the analysis 3 of the admixture graph, notice something?

Only two populations have a similar make up in it, Basque and Sardinians.

I'd suppose in Sardinians it's more complicated, as the other admixture components show, but the Basques have the least Near Eastern-West Asian influence which was, like explained above "carried on" by the Indoeuropeans up to Lithuania and the Orkneys.

They got however the Southern European-Levantine influence, which is not the same as the West Asian as the graph I argued with has shown.

The Sardinian light blue influence in analysis 8 is as low as in Baltoslaws, which alone is significant, considering the history, so:

Sardinia is in the middle of the mediterranean and has received more levantine influence.

For that situation and geography it is very, very low - especially the light blue component present in practically all Indoeuropeans.

But ok, that was just a speculation of mine, we'll see...

[Ibericus]

Well, going after that study, R1b-P312 is probably not Indoeuropean or not entirely so at least...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)#R1b1b2a1a2_.28R-P312.29

Where does it say it is not indo-european ?

[Ibericus]

Thats "the problem" actually, because its present in all Indoeuropean Europeans, even the Orcadians, Russians, Belorussians and of course neighbouring Spaniards (!).
But the light blue is levantine, not indoeuropean


Look at the analysis 3 of the admixture graph, notice something?

Only two populations have a similar make up in it, Basque and Sardinians.

Actually they have very different make up. JUst look at K4, K5, K7, K8




For that situation and geography it is very, very low - especially the light blue component present in practically all Indoeuropeans.
And what makes you think basques are not indoeuropean ? Only because of the language ? The light blue component is not indoeuropean, since arabs and levantines have the most of it, and they are not indoeuropean

[Agrippa]

Where does it say it is not indo-european ?

We don't know, but your comment sounded to me like the presence of this haplotype would be some sort of proof for an Indoeuropean influence, which it is obviously not if considering that the highest rates in areas in which Indoeuropeans came the latest and in - most likely - rather diluted form.

That of all the populations the West Asian component in Sardinians and Basques was practically ABSENT is just remarkable, especially in a comparison with the rest of Indoeuropean/Indoeuropean influenced Europe, including the populations mentioned.

But this is at best just a hint and fo course, if someone finds specific haplotypes and genetic traits in f.e. Corded Ware and Kurgan People, thats still the best proof you can have, but so far only R1a1a was found, so everything else is speculative.

[Ibericus]

So, according to you, Semites and Levants are the most indoeuropean ? Because they have the most light-green and light-blue components. I think you have not read the study, because it cleary says that the light-blue component is levantine

[Agrippa]

So, according to you, Semites and Levants are the most indoeuropean ? Because they have the most light-green and light-blue components. I think you have not read the study, because it cleary says that the light-blue component is levantine

No, what I said is that the West Asian component visible in the first graph I commented ("light green") might represent an element which was important in the original foundation of the Indoeuropeans.

Like I always suggested, Indoeuropeans were the result of a fusion, so even if I'm right, the Levantines are obviously not "more Indoeuropean", but have an element similar to that which participated in the formation of the Proto-Indoeuropeans.

In this formation, an Eastern European Mesolithic element played a huge role and dominated the expansive waves of Indoeuropeans obviously, because otherwise the West Asian component would have been stronger in the Indoeuropean areas...

Also the Semits ("pink") are distinct from both Europe and the Levantines-Iranians actually, so...

As for the Russian sample, some commentators at Dienekes site mentioned they came mostly from Vologda, which has a significant Finno-Ugrian influence and might therefore not be representative for Russians as whole, which too should have more of the Southern and less of the Mongoloid component - if it is true they are from the Northern regions, which have higher yDNA N etc. too of course than the South...

[boredva]

modern european jews are a mix of europeans ( usually slavs or italians) and middle eastern levantine people. Though there are some that have mixed in so much that they are only european by blood and maybe less then 1% levantine.