People who think i2a-''din'' is ''illyrian'' are delusional

[Shqipez]

Lets be honest, the Illyrians lived next to the greeks and Thracians. they might of lived north, but allot of those, like the liburnians were not illyrians.
The Illyrians show especially ancient greek influence, in mythology for example, which shows they lived close to greeks. The illyrians could not of come to the balkans before ancient greeks if they are i2a. There is an ancient greek tale of the Pelasgians setting foot first in the balkans, and that they also became ancestors of epirotans.. no illyrian is ever mentioned here, meaning, Epirotans must be ancestors of illyrians/ or from other Pelasgians who kept moving up. or illyrians came from the north, but still it would be higher among greeks for example.. This shows why Albanians and greeks carry the same haplogroups.. if Illyrians were that majorly i2a, while other haplogroups lack in croats for example, and i2a in Albanians, it means Albanians came from another planet, because this haplogroup is mostly associated with slavs in the balkans. while south slavs, carry Albanian/Greek associated haplogroups. for example EV-13 even exists in Croatia, you tell me how it got there?

If the Illyrians carried i2a it would be much higher in greeks, all around, simply because they were neighbors. yet its concentration is in Carpathian Mountains/moldova area, and Croatia/Bosnia and diminishes the more downards you go. illyrians lived in the south and could of influenced other neighbors languages, yet i2a is lower in these areas.

I'm not saying illyrians carried only EV-13, I think there is a relation with J2 and EV-13, and also maybe R1b... I haven't study enough of these because all sources say different things, but the fact of the matter is, it would make no fucking sense for i2a to be ''illyrian/thracian'' haplogroup.

[Shqipez]

Here is how i2a-''din'' got to the balkans:


Let's add that some Slavic groups came to the Balkans from the east, but some other from the north (from Central Europe):

http://historum.com/european-history...croats-25.html

http://historum.com/european-history...croats-26.html

http://historum.com/european-history...dinavia-4.html

Roughly like this (some smaller groups also went through what is now Eastern Hungary and Western Romania):

http://s10.postimg.org/r1inlawhl/Balkan_colonization_by_Slavs.png



Quote Originally Posted by Artek
Progress in the field of y-DNA testing (Y-DNA sequencing) allowed to confirm that previously done TMRCA estimates for I2-L621(Dinaric) were accurate and I2-DIN(L621) is young.
There are 90+ SNPs on the level of L621 what indicates long bottleneck that lasted through eneolithic, bronze age and big part of iron age period. So the whole Dinaric branch stems from one man who lived around the year of foundation of Rome in Central-Eastern Europe, most likely as a part of proto-Slavic people.

Frequency is meaningless and calculations show that diversity and TMRCA of I2-L621 decreases in the southerly direction. So the frequency in Balkans(Bosnia in particular) is a result of relatively recent founder effect, that happened at start of Slavic presence there and later strengthened regionally. It was just a chance, that Bosnia now is 60% I2, not 60% R1a.

As for now, L621* is found only in Poland and Western Ukraine, Polish haplotype was sequenced. The tree of Dinaric branch is available here http://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/

So yes, it's slavic. Very young age allows for ethnic specification of this branch.

Add that with the fact that R1a might of come together, also another migration of R1a came before this, probably with the sclaveni and antes. it looks like the balkans was majorly EV-13, J2 and R1b before... the Thracians and Illyrians carried the same haplogroups as the ancient greeks. So maybe this whole thing about the Ancient-Greeks, the albanians and pelasgians is true.. How else would you explain EV-13, j2 etc in Bulgaria? Thracians lived there, they must of carried it too. Same goes for Romania etc.

[safinator]

The ancestor of modern day I2a1b1 clades in Balkans is thought to have come from Poland area, they found a mutation there of someone who tested through Ftdna which is ancestral to Balkan clades.

[Skerdilaid]

Lets be honest, the Illyrians lived next to the greeks and Thracians. they might of lived north, but allot of those, like the liburnians were not illyrians.
The Illyrians show especially ancient greek influence, in mythology for example, which shows they lived close to greeks. The illyrians could not of come to the balkans before ancient greeks if they are i2a. There is an ancient greek tale of the Pelasgians setting foot first in the balkans, and that they also became ancestors of epirotans.. no illyrian is ever mentioned here, meaning, Epirotans must be ancestors of illyrians/ or from other Pelasgians who kept moving up. or illyrians came from the north, but still it would be higher among greeks for example.. This shows why Albanians and greeks carry the same haplogroups.. if Illyrians were that majorly i2a, while other haplogroups lack in croats for example, and i2a in Albanians, it means Albanians came from another planet, because this haplogroup is mostly associated with slavs in the balkans. while south slavs, carry Albanian/Greek associated haplogroups. for example EV-13 even exists in Croatia, you tell me how it got there?

If the Illyrians carried i2a it would be much higher in greeks, all around, simply because they were neighbors. yet its concentration is in Carpathian Mountains/moldova area, and Croatia/Bosnia and diminishes the more downards you go. illyrians lived in the south and could of influenced other neighbors languages, yet i2a is lower in these areas.

I'm not saying illyrians carried only EV-13, I think there is a relation with J2 and EV-13, and also maybe R1b... I haven't study enough of these because all sources say different things, but the fact of the matter is, it would make no fucking sense for i2a to be ''illyrian/thracian'' haplogroup.

Illyrians either way did not come to Balkans before ancient Greeks, and that doesn't change anything on regards to I2a clade that is found in big numbers on Balkan Slavs today when one takes in consideration the age of the mutation. Illyrians did come from north, but did not carry this clade because it didn't even exits when they descended down. Danube basin is placed as the homeland of this mutation, and considering its age, regions like Pannonia and Dacia is what we are talking about etc. so Slavs weren't even close there during that stage. Northern Illyrians could have had small percentages of it, but it also got picked up and pushed down by Slavs when they entered those regions I mentioned. Slavs were most likely majority R1a when they entered Central Europe.

[Shqipez]

Illyrians either way did not come to Balkans before ancient Greeks, and that doesn't change anything on regards to I2a clade that is found in big numbers on Balkan Slavs today when one takes in consideration the age of the mutation. Illyrians did come from north, but did not carry this clade because it didn't even exits when they descended down. Danube basin is placed as the homeland of this mutation, and considering its age, regions like Pannonia and Dacia is what we are talking about etc. so Slavs weren't even close there during that stage. Northern Illyrians could have had small percentages of it, but it also got picked up and pushed down by Slavs when they entered those regions I mentioned. Slavs were most likely majority R1a when they entered Central Europe.

It's already been proven, I2a1b1 clades in the balkans came from Poland/Ukraine area. as the guy above here said. they found a mutation there that is ancestral to the one in the balkans, it's new. It came with the 2nd slavic immigration. Yes, the proto-slavs were majorly R1a, then they came in contact with I2a carriers around the carpathian mountains/east europe area.. from there i2a tribes might of immigrated into central europe too and north, I don't know who carried this, because there were many group of people around that area coming into contact with proto-slavs, Scythians, Sarmatians, Turkic tribes, Goths etc.

Illyrians might of carried different haplogroups, I don't see how we can ignore that possibility, which might of formed the Illyrians. So some could of come from the north and some from the south. I don't know.. anything is possible. But I don't see what makes you think Illyrians came from the north? And that Greeks were there before them?

Read the book of Johan Georg Vohn Hahn: Albanische studien. but I think it's only available in german. We are talking about a book written 100+ years ago when no one even knew who Albanians were, yet this man had nothing to win writing this book. He dedicated most of his life to albanology, I doubt he got rich, yet he demonstrated ancestors of Albanians were in the balkans before Greeks.

[Skerdilaid]

It's already been proven, I2a1b1 clades in the balkans came from Poland/Ukraine area. as the guy above here said. they found a mutation there that is ancestral to the one in the balkans, it's new. It came with the 2nd slavic immigration. Yes, the proto-slavs were majorly R1a, then they came in contact with I2a carriers around the carpathian mountains/east europe area.. from there i2a tribes might of immigrated into central europe too and north, I don't know who carried this, because there were many group of people around that area coming into contact with proto-slavs, Scythians, Sarmatians, Turkic tribes, Goths etc.

Illyrians might of carried different haplogroups, I don't see how we can ignore that possibility, which might of formed the Illyrians. So some could of come from the north and some from the south. I don't know.. anything is possible. But I don't see what makes you think Illyrians came from the north? And that Greeks were there before them?

Read the book of Johan Georg Vohn Hahn: Albanische studien. but I think it's only available in german. We are talking about a book written 100+ years ago when no one even knew who Albanians were, yet this man had nothing to win writing this book. He dedicated most of his life to albanology, I doubt he got rich, yet he demonstrated ancestors of Albanians were in the balkans before Greeks.

According to Ken mutation happened in the Danube basin about 2000 years ago. Now we know for sure that prior to Slavs arrival there were many population movements/raids on what used to be known as Illyrian territory, from Central Europe. Who is to say that some was not brought down by Goths and other groups that roamed central Europe and raided Roman/Byzantine territory? Slavs did too contribute no its distribution latter on, but as I stated on my previous post, originally they were R1a folk. Just because today a Polak carries the ancestral clade; it doesn't mean it was originally Slavic. Slavs carry all sorts of y-dna, they mated with anyone they crossed paths..

That Illyrians came from North during late bronze age, is generally understood. Thraco-Illyrian languages entered Balkans after Greek. Geographically it would be impossible to argue the opposite, because we know that Dorians entered mainland Greece from Balkans, and their invasion of Greece also coincides with the time frame when Illyrians showed up. Genetically speaking, yes, some of our ancestors pre-date all Indo-European folk, specifically the E-V13 ancestors, but that is also true for some Greeks and other groups.

[Shqipez]

According to Ken mutation happened in the Danube basin about 2000 years ago. Now we know for sure that prior to Slavs arrival there were many population movements/raids on what used to be known as Illyrian territory, from Central Europe. Who is to say that some was not brought down by Goths and other groups that roamed central Europe and raided Roman/Byzantine territory? Slavs did too contribute no its distribution latter on, but as I stated on my previous post, originally they were R1a folk. Just because today a Polak carries the ancestral clade; it doesn't mean it was originally Slavic. Slavs carry all sorts of y-dna, they mated with anyone they crossed paths..

That Illyrians came from North during late bronze age, is generally understood. Thraco-Illyrian languages entered Balkans after Greek. Geographically it would be impossible to argue the opposite, because we know that Dorians entered mainland Greece from Balkans, and their invasion of Greece also coincides with the time frame when Illyrians showed up. Genetically speaking, yes, some of our ancestors pre-date all Indo-European folk, specifically the E-V13 ancestors, but that is also true for some Greeks and other groups.

Yeah, I agree with what you say. And that's what I basically meant.

[Jana]

I have few questions: why is concentration of I2a strongly connected with dinaric phenotype in Dinaric alps?

It peaks in BiH Croats who are heavily dinaric, and dinaric is phenotype that to be native to the Dinaric alps.
http://i.imgur.com/Nbr0gC4.gif
It could have been so dense in that tiny area due to bottleneck/founder effect as well, but I think it is really connected to native population of the area.

Slavs were known to be agricultural lowlanders and after their invasion surviving old people of the area fled to the mountains. These were Romanized Illyrians. R1a is high in Slavonia which is anthropologically, geographically and even in its name very Slavic region.

I2a is common in southern Croatia, connected to great height and already mentioned dinaric phenotype (this is no scientific but what I think)


So my question is: why wouldn't it be ''Illyrian''? We even don't Know who Illyrians were and how they looked like. It is possible they were heterogenous group of people. I2a suposedly spread from north but I am not sure, maybe it originaly colonized Central and Eastern Europe from the Balkans (hence it is second most common haplogroup in other Slavic lands) and than returned in some numbers with later mainly R1a Slavic invasion.

I tend to think it is native to southeast Europe.


What do other people think?

[Rugevit]

I have few questions: why is concentration of I2a strongly connected with dinaric phenotype in Dinaric alps?

It peaks in BiH Croats who are heavily dinaric, and dinaric is phenotype that to be native to the Dinaric alps.
http://i.imgur.com/Nbr0gC4.gif
It could have been so dense in that tiny area due to bottleneck/founder effect as well, but I think it is really connected to native population of the area.

Slavs were known to be agricultural lowlanders and after their invasion surviving old people of the area fled to the mountains. These were Romanized Illyrians. R1a is high in Slavonia which is anthropologically, geographically and even in its name very Slavic region.

I2a is common in southern Croatia, connected to great height and already mentioned dinaric phenotype (this is no scientific but what I think)


So my question is: why wouldn't it be ''Illyrian''? We even don't Know who Illyrians were and how they looked like. It is possible they were heterogenous group of people. I2a suposedly spread from north but I am not sure, maybe it originaly colonized Central and Eastern Europe from the Balkans (hence it is second most common haplogroup in other Slavic lands) and than returned in some numbers with later mainly R1a Slavic invasion.

I tend to think it is native to southeast Europe.


What do other people think?



It could be the result of bottle neck and founder effects. Poland and Ukraine has more males carrying I2a2-Din than the Balkans in absolute numbers. There is a greater haplotype diversity in north-western Ukraine than in the Balkans which is important fact used in determining the origins of the haplogroup.

Haplogroup I2a2-Din is too young to have originated in the Balkans. More likely it existed among Celts of central Europe. One cousin branch I2a2-Disles migrated west, the other migrated in the east. From there it was spread with Slavic expansion in 6AD-8AD into the Balkans , after plague hit eastern Roman empire eliminated much population.


The plague pandemic and Slavic expansion in the 6th-8th centuries
Abstract
The plague pandemic in 541-543 and successive outbreaks of the disease till the latter half of the 8th century caused a deep demographic crisis in the Eastern Roman Empire. The most important effects of the plague were a shortage of manpower and a growing importance of marginal barbarian populations, which had suffered less or not at all from the disease. Demographic, political and economic consequences of the pandemic likely caused or at least facilitated Slavic expansion in the Balkans between the 6th and 8th century. The Slavs began to raid intensively and then settle the European provinces of the Roman Empire soon after the first outbreak of the plague and available textual evidence suggests that this region was depopulated by the disease and neglected by the government. During the 7th century, the Empire's administration and economy collapsed due to the effects of the plague and the existing system of land taxation and central provisioning of professional armies must have been replaced by regional organization of territorial troops recruited from free peasant farmers. In the new circumstances, the Slavs, who had in the meantime re-populated the Balkans, constituted an abundant source of manpower for a restored Empire.

Full-text:http://www.antropologia.uw.edu.pl/AS/as-005.pdf

[Jana]

It could be the result of bottle neck and founder effects. Poland and Ukraine has more males carrying I2a2-Din than the Balkans in absolute numbers. There is a greater haplotype diversity in north-western Ukraine than in the Balkans which is important fact used in determining the origins of the haplogroup.

Haplogroup I2a2-Din is too young to have originated in the Balkans. More likely it existed among Celts of central Europe. One cousin branch I2a2-Disles migrated west, the other migrated in the east. From there it was spread with Slavic expansion in 6AD-8AD into the Balkans , after plague hit eastern Roman empire eliminated much population.


The plague pandemic and Slavic expansion in the 6th-8th centuries
Abstract
The plague pandemic in 541-543 and successive outbreaks of the disease till the latter half of the 8th century caused a deep demographic crisis in the Eastern Roman Empire. The most important effects of the plague were a shortage of manpower and a growing importance of marginal barbarian populations, which had suffered less or not at all from the disease. Demographic, political and economic consequences of the pandemic likely caused or at least facilitated Slavic expansion in the Balkans between the 6th and 8th century. The Slavs began to raid intensively and then settle the European provinces of the Roman Empire soon after the first outbreak of the plague and available textual evidence suggests that this region was depopulated by the disease and neglected by the government. During the 7th century, the Empire's administration and economy collapsed due to the effects of the plague and the existing system of land taxation and central provisioning of professional armies must have been replaced by regional organization of territorial troops recruited from free peasant farmers. In the new circumstances, the Slavs, who had in the meantime re-populated the Balkans, constituted an abundant source of manpower for a restored Empire.

Full-text:http://www.antropologia.uw.edu.pl/AS/as-005.pdf

Sounds convincing. But can you xplain this part: ''There is a greater haplotype diversity in north-western Ukraine than in the Balkans which is important fact used in determining the origins of the haplogroup.''

[Rugevit]

Sounds convincing. But can you xplain this part: ''There is a greater haplotype diversity in north-western Ukraine than in the Balkans which is important fact used in determining the origins of the haplogroup.''

What's there to explain? There is basal haplotype which is used in determining the geographic origins of the haplogroups. Of course, things are not as simple. There is an assumption that population lived in the same region continuously, and no populations living in isolation arrived to the region and mixed thereby increasing the diversity.

[Gaston]

I have few questions: why is concentration of I2a strongly connected with dinaric phenotype in Dinaric alps?


While the observations made with "classification" were often true, it is pseudoscience.

What we know from science is craniofacial and body/limb proportions and body breadth can change very quickly. What you see as "dinaric" types might actually be a very recent phenomenon. Just like brachycephally in Europeans is rapidly disappearing (because of better nutrition) or with Dutch people being now among the tallest in Europe while they were the shortest a couple of centuries ago.

So modern y-dna frequencies can't explain the observable phenotypes of today through ancient migrations.

[Barsad]

Can someone explain the haplogroup to me in detail, and everything in detail. I would really appreciate it.

[Peterski]

It peaks in BiH Croats who are heavily dinaric, and dinaric is phenotype that to be native to the Dinaric alps.

I2a is common in southern Croatia, connected to great height and already mentioned dinaric phenotype (this is no scientific but what I think)

So my question is: why wouldn't it be ''Illyrian''? We even don't Know who Illyrians were and how they looked like.

Exactly, we don't know how Illyrians looked like. On the other hand, we know how Slavs who migrated into the Balkans looked like - Procopius of Caesarea, Theophilact Simokatta, Theophanes the Confessor described Slavs as people of great height. So it perfectly fits your description posted above. Check this article, "The Phenotype of Slavs 6th-10th centuries AD" (written in Polish, with English summary):

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/swarch/Swiatowit-r2001-t3_%2844%29-nB-s205-212.pdf

Citations about Slavs migrating into the Balkans, describing their height:

1. Procopius of Caesarea:

- "(...) Nay further, they [Slavs] don't differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or very blonde, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are slightly ruddy in color. (...)"

- "(...) Valerian chose one of the Slavs who are men of mighty stature. (...)"

2. Theophilact Simokatta

"(...) The Emperor was with great curiosity listening to stories about this tribe [Slavs], he has welcomed these newcomers from the land of barbarians, and after being amazed by their height and mighty stature, he sent these men to Heraclea. (...)"

3. Theophanes the Confessor:

"(...) The Emperor was admiring their [Slavic] beauty and their stalwart stature. (...)"

4. Caesarius of Nazianzus:

He described Slavs as "numerous and tall", if I'm not mistaken (but I don't have exact quotation at hand).

[Shqipez]

Exactly, we don't know how Illyrians looked like. On the other hand, we know how Slavs who migrated into the Balkans looked like - Procopius of Caesarea, Theophilact Simokatta, Theophanes the Confessor described Slavs as people of great height. So it perfectly fits your description posted above. Check this article, "The Phenotype of Slavs 6th-10th centuries AD" (written in Polish, with English summary):

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/swarch/Swiatowit-r2001-t3_%2844%29-nB-s205-212.pdf

Citations about Slavs migrating into the Balkans, describing their height:

1. Procopius of Caesarea:

- "(...) Nay further, they [Slavs] don't differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or very blonde, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are slightly ruddy in color. (...)"

- "(...) Valerian chose one of the Slavs who are men of mighty stature. (...)"

2. Theophilact Simokatta

"(...) The Emperor was with great curiosity listening to stories about this tribe [Slavs], he has welcomed these newcomers from the land of barbarians, and after being amazed by their height and mighty stature, he sent these men to Heraclea. (...)"

3. Theophanes the Confessor:

"(...) The Emperor was admiring their [Slavic] beauty and their stalwart stature. (...)"

4. Caesarius of Nazianzus:

He described Slavs as "numerous and tall", if I'm not mistaken (but I don't have exact quotation at hand).

I2a and R1a are slavic markers. These are the highest Y-DNA's found among north slavs and south slavs. When Slavs migrated to the Balkans they brought with them these Y-DNA's. Did these exist west of the Balkans prior to that? I doubt it as high? Why? It barely is even existable in Italy even places where Illyrians are believed to of settled such as Apulia and also ancient greeks colonized south of Italy and if it was an Illyrian marker than it was also carried by ancient greece, yet, it barely even exists in the places they or Illyrians colonized. except for the isolated Sardinian island which is another clade it is non existant. I also believe they were carried by Dacians/Thracians who picked it up around Romania from others and spread it from there. It is high in Romanians, but it is also high in Aromanians who are believed to be descendants of Thracians/Dacians or from so called ''Bessis'' that from todays Romania/Bulgaria spilled south to todays Macedonia/Albania/Greece and they show still very little slavic influence from what I know.

I'm more convinced that I2a was a Dacian marker than Illyrian. The i2a in Greeks, a lot of it could be from Vlachs, depending on where. The i2a in Albanians is from Aromanians/Vlachs, (And not serbo-croat which some seem automatically to think) who also many fled to the mountains. You can find Aromanian villages in many mountains of Albania. Albanians have asimilated more Aromanians than Slavs, this is atleast linguistically evident.

Never denied that south slavs have Illyrian/Native balkan origin, but it's not the majority of the population like some people make it out to be. Usually these are people who don't know that the balkans was permanently mass settled by slavic tribes and not neccessarily just military occupied and slavicized. Slavicization would take hundreds of years to even occur. The Ottomans occupied the balkans for 600 years, the only thing you see from them is mosques, caj, and some Turkish/Persian/Arabic loan words here and there.

Haplogroups such as E, R1b and J2b are also just as high or higher in Romanians/Aromanians as i2a or R1a.

[Drawing-slim]

It's widely acceptable to be Slavic but logically could be an Illyrian Y-dna that most all carriers are autosomally Slavic.
We have to keep in mind that throughout Balkans were Illyrians under Roman Empire and orthodoxy was created by an Illyrian in order to split from Rome. When Rome/Vatican left this region every living land owner Illyrian it's hard to imagine they all died. All they had to do if they wanted to live and keep their land was to simply switch from Catholics to orthodoxy and continue living which in proccess they married mixed with new waves of orthodox Slavs which was acceptable as long as you belonged to one religion.
If I'm not mistaken there are members of same Albanian tribe that one side is Montenegrin orthodox while on the other has remained Catholics speaking Albanian.

[Drawing-slim]

Another logical reason to see why could have spread from central Illyrian Croatia Bosnia eastwards and if we agree today Albanians are the only candidate for Illyrian connection than it makes perfect sense. Horny Illyrian men started chasing Slavic pussy and moved eastward breeding like rabbits. If we look at how small Albanian population is today their males do breed with a lot of foreign women in comparison to other Balkan males, now think about back in time when the number of Illyrians was much greater and women couldn't simply be on birth control? It has gotta be Illyrian, I'm telling you xD

[Shqipez]

It's widely acceptable to be Slavic but logically could be an Illyrian Y-dna that most all carriers are autosomally Slavic.
We have to keep in mind that throughout Balkans were Illyrians under Roman Empire and orthodoxy was created by an Illyrian in order to split from Rome. When Rome/Vatican left this region every living land owner Illyrian it's hard to imagine they all died. All they had to do if they wanted to live and keep their land was to simply switch from Catholics to orthodoxy and continue living which in proccess they married mixed with new waves of orthodox Slavs which was acceptable as long as you belonged to one religion.
If I'm not mistaken there are members of same Albanian tribe that one side is Montenegrin orthodox while on the other has remained Catholics speaking Albanian.

I believe it was a Dacian and a slavic marker. it came in different waves. Both I2a and R1a was picked up by Dacians/Thracians around Romania and spread.

My issue with this topic is how it's so high in all of the Balkans Romanians, Aromanians, Croats, Bulgarians, Bosnians etc but lower in Albanians, especially Kosovars and also Greeks in some cases if i'm not mistaken. Maybe its genetic drift, I don't know. These genetic studies still don't tell much to be honest... there is a lot of confusion and it's easily to be confused.

Who is to say the ones Albanians carry came from Serbo-Croats for example or whatever, or the one greeks carry, as I said it could of come in different waves with different people and this is where genetics can confuse someone... I mean we could of picked this up from Aromanians. we have mingled more with them and even noble tribes of montenegro such as Balsic are by many even Serbians believed to of been Vlach/Aromanian in origin.

at the same time south slavs have absorbed vlachs too, even Dacians who spilled south or west and settled in Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia etc.

[Jana]

Current Slavic hypotesis is most lolgical one, I doubted it but Science (and Simargl) convinced me :D

Haplotype diversity that is concentrated in Eastern Europe is biggest evidence to ''Slavic claim'' :)

[The Destroyer]

Current Slavic hypotesis is most lolgical one, I doubted it but Science (and Simargl) convinced me :D

Haplotype diversity that is concentrated in Eastern Europe is biggest evidence to ''Slavic claim'' :)

Don't believe him sister, embrace your Illyrian-ness.

[Shqipez]

Don't believe him sister, embrace your Illyrian-ness.


Illyrians in Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia disappeared in thin air bro and magically replaced by Albanians :D but the ones in Bosnia, Croatia, and Serbia welcomed slavic tribes and mixed with them instead of naturally fleeing south. There the Slavic tribes with their leaders met the illyrian leaders and tribes, and there they gave eachothers sisters with absolutely no restrictions for what they could do with them, even anal sex was allowed, and from there they were bonded by blood :D