When Scotland was Jewish

[Learning_Genetics]

Elizabeth Caldwell Hirschman and Donald 'Panther' Yates wrote a book called 'When Scotland was Jewish'. Its thesis is that much of Scottish history was influenced by Jews and also that many of the Scottish people descend from them as well. Apparently Sephardic Jews, after the expulsion of the Jews from England in 1290, went to settle in Scotland in large numbers. They assimilated into Scottish society but also influenced it. Presbyterianism is apparently one such product of their influence.

The writers conducted DNA tests on people of Scottish origin in America, with typical Scottish surnames and known Scottish ancestry. Their tests found correlations between these people and known Jews throughout the world.

What can we make of this thesis? Does it hold any weight and are the genetic arguments based on any solid ground?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Presbyterianism is apparently one such product of their influence.


What a big shock.

Actually yes. A lot of the planters have j mtdna, a type also common in basque country. Not to mention crooked teeth, which virtually don't exist in ethnic irish. That is basically where they went, north ireland and south scotland.

[Anglojew]

Elizabeth Caldwell Hirschman and Donald 'Panther' Yates wrote a book called 'When Scotland was Jewish'. Its thesis is that much of Scottish history was influenced by Jews and also that many of the Scottish people descend from them as well. Apparently Sephardic Jews, after the expulsion of the Jews from England in 1290, went to settle in Scotland in large numbers. They assimilated into Scottish society but also influenced it. Presbyterianism is apparently one such product of their influence.

The writers conducted DNA tests on people of Scottish origin in America, with typical Scottish surnames and known Scottish ancestry. Their tests found correlations between these people and known Jews throughout the world.

What can we make of this thesis? Does it hold any weight and are the genetic arguments based on any solid ground?

I've read some of the book which has parallels in British Israelitism but even the claim seems to be more that some Jews lived in Scottish cities and assimilated rather than the sensationalist headline.

[Anglojew]

Elizabeth Caldwell Hirschman and Donald 'Panther' Yates wrote a book called 'When Scotland was Jewish'. Its thesis is that much of Scottish history was influenced by Jews and also that many of the Scottish people descend from them as well. Apparently Sephardic Jews, after the expulsion of the Jews from England in 1290, went to settle in Scotland in large numbers. They assimilated into Scottish society but also influenced it. Presbyterianism is apparently one such product of their influence.

The writers conducted DNA tests on people of Scottish origin in America, with typical Scottish surnames and known Scottish ancestry. Their tests found correlations between these people and known Jews throughout the world.

What can we make of this thesis? Does it hold any weight and are the genetic arguments based on any solid ground?

Double post

[Learning_Genetics]

What a big shock.

Actually yes. A lot of the planters have j mtdna, a type also common in basque country. Not to mention crooked teeth, which virtually don't exist in ethnic irish. That is basically where they went, north ireland and south scotland.

So basically there are people in Scotland and Ulster, who if you go back far enough, would have had Jewish male ancestors in the Middle Ages?

How much of the population can we estimate is of Jewish origin? Would it be the majority?

Surely it cannot be the majority, because most of Scotland and Northern Ireland are R1b aren't they? (I know R1b can also be found in Sephardic Jews).

[Prisoner Of Ice]

So basically there are people in Scotland and Ulster, who if you go back far enough, would have had Jewish male ancestors in the Middle Ages?

How much of the population can we estimate is of Jewish origin? Would it be the majority?

Surely it cannot be the majority, because most of Scotland and Northern Ireland are R1b aren't they? (I know R1b can also be found in Sephardic Jews).

It's impossible to know without looking at lots of DNA from ancient scotland and ancient sephardic jews. Lots of DNA labeled british may not be at all.

Some of the old DNA from england had crazily high "atlantic" component. Maybe that is what "real" english is. A lot of people in northern ireland look middle eastern to me. I am not sure how much of this is recent, how much from the neolithic etc.

[Anglojew]

So basically there are people in Scotland and Ulster, who if you go back far enough, would have had Jewish male ancestors in the Middle Ages?

How much of the population can we estimate is of Jewish origin? Would it be the majority?

Surely it cannot be the majority, because most of Scotland and Northern Ireland are R1b aren't they? (I know R1b can also be found in Sephardic Jews).

Northern Irish flag:

http://cdn3.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/article29803597.ece/cd2ad/ALTERNATES/h342/NWS_20131203_NEW_008_29839013_I4.JPG

[Learning_Genetics]

It's impossible to know without looking at lots of DNA from ancient scotland and ancient sephardic jews. Lots of DNA labeled british may not be at all.

Some of the old DNA from england had crazily high "atlantic" component. Maybe that is what "real" english is. A lot of people in northern ireland look middle eastern to me. I am not sure how much of this is recent, how much from the neolithic etc.

Well I find it hard to believe that the majority of Scots in Scotland itself would be of direct paternal descent from Jews. That would mean that a lot of Jews would have moved to Scotland and would have eventually come to outnumber the native Scots. Would the Scottish kingdom simply have tolerated such a large influx of Jews? I doubt it.

I do agree with you though, those Ulstermen do look quite Middle Eastern. Some of them even look lik Israelis.

[Anglojew]

Well I find it hard to believe that the majority of Scots in Scotland itself would be of direct paternal descent from Jews. That would mean that a lot of Jews would have moved to Scotland and would have eventually come to outnumber the native Scots. Would the Scottish kingdom simply have tolerated such a large influx of Jews? I doubt it.

I do agree with you though, those Ulstermen do look quite Middle Eastern. Some of them even look lik Israelis.

Many Scots and Irish are (names) are paternally Norman. Even Robert the Bruce was Norman.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Well I find it hard to believe that the majority of Scots in Scotland itself would be of direct paternal descent from Jews.


Someone said that? :rolleyes:

I mentioned mtdna anyway, but the same is likely true. In iceland for example except a few blips in port cities j1c mtdna does not exist. So it could well be introduced to ireland in last few centuries, since iceland is a combination of irish and norwegian.



That would mean that a lot of Jews would have moved to Scotland and would have eventually come to outnumber the native Scots. Would the Scottish kingdom simply have tolerated such a large influx of Jews? I doubt it.

I do agree with you though, those Ulstermen do look quite Middle Eastern. Some of them even look lik Israelis.

The sephardic jews were probably not mainly middle eastern. Almost all of the UK at this point has a lot of mixing going on. I have virtually never seen an american who had bad teeth like is so common there, or seen it in connacht. In irish americans it's even less common, it's very much rural DNA not neolithic urbanized stuff.

UK let hundreds of thousands of alascars, jews, poles and others settle in the 18th century alone. All of the population growth in UK has been in the cities as well. The rural areas basically all moved to america except the small number of farmers who remained behind after mechanization. The highland clearance and the war with slavery for irish and then the two big famines sent huge amounts of people away. Ireland used to have higher population than England before all that, and highland scotland became basically empty.

[Grace O'Malley]

My mt-dna is found all over Northern Europe and I have a few close matches with people from Norway so I'm not sure where you are getting your information from Melonhead. J1c is reasonably common all over Europe and reaches quite high figures in countries like Norway and Ireland so I'd be surprised if it isn't in Iceland. J is actually 13.7% in Iceland.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_mtdna_haplogroups_frequency.shtml

Here is a study about Mitochondrial DNA variation in the Viking age population of Norway. J is the most common after H and U.

Table 1 shows Mitochondrial DNA haplotype frequencies (frequency, % and number of observed instances, N, in italics) in ancient and present-day Norwegians.

http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/370/1660/20130384.figures-only#fig-data-figures

http://fornleifur.blog.is/users/5c/fornleifur/files/20130384_full_hagelberg_et_al_19402.pdf

http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/370/1660/20130384

Here is a map of J in Europe.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-J-map.png

I'll include a map of H as well to show that Iceland doesn't appear to be sampled in any of these maps. It is most likely due to the low population in Iceland why the maps are like this.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-H1-H3-map.png

[Grace O'Malley]

What a big shock.

Actually yes. A lot of the planters have j mtdna, a type also common in basque country. Not to mention crooked teeth, which virtually don't exist in ethnic irish. That is basically where they went, north ireland and south scotland.

You got this out of thin air didn't you? I'm J and my maternal line is from Tipperary. My last maternal ancestor that I've traced is an Irish woman with a very Irish name and I've traced her to the late 1700s. The people with the highest percentage of J are actually North Ossetians.

[Learning_Genetics]

UK let hundreds of thousands of alascars, jews, poles and others settle in the 18th century alone. All of the population growth in UK has been in the cities as well. The rural areas basically all moved to america except the small number of farmers who remained behind after mechanization. The highland clearance and the war with slavery for irish and then the two big famines sent huge amounts of people away. Ireland used to have higher population than England before all that, and highland scotland became basically empty.

I do not understand you, I am sorry.

Are you saying that most of the British people of today are not native to the country but descend from immigrants who settled in urban areas from the 18th century onward?

Are you also saying that most British people of today descend from Poles, Jews and lascars rather than the native British stock?

Wouldn't the British people who moved to the cities during the industrial revolution have once been rural as well?

[Black Wolf]

What a total crock of shit that book is. Donald Panther Yates is notorious in the DNA world as giving false information to people and at one time owning an extremely questionable DNA testing company. Sure some Scots have some Jewish ancestry but overall the percentage of Scots that have any recent Jewish ancestry or any Jewish ancestry at all is quite small.

[Rædwald]

What a big shock.

Actually yes. A lot of the planters have j mtdna, a type also common in basque country. Not to mention crooked teeth, which virtually don't exist in ethnic irish. That is basically where they went, north ireland and south scotland.

Do you know if there is any correlation with lower mandible crowding and genetics?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I do not understand you, I am sorry.

Are you saying that most of the British people of today are not native to the country but descend from immigrants who settled in urban areas from the 18th century onward?

Are you also saying that most British people of today descend from Poles, Jews and lascars rather than the native British stock?


Yes. What is hard to understand about this? It's like spaniards who think their country is totally unmixed.

Being mixed is not the same as being wholly nonnative but I don't possibly understand how someone can take a stroll in London and not figure this out. Same thing that's happened in last 30 years has been going on for 2-3 centuries at a slower rate, and it started over 7 centuries ago. British empire was global, and it had zero concern for its own citizens, even kicked them out when possible and replaced as many workers as possible with foreigners who were cheaper.

Are you going to give me some hilarious excuses for hemoglobin D being all through the british isles but NOT in white americans now like grace o malley did? LOL



Wouldn't the British people who moved to the cities during the industrial revolution have once been rural as well?

Again, what is so hard to understand? I get shocked by how little people know about their own history. Do you know where puritans lived and where they went?!?! Highland clearance?!?! Irish troubles?!?!

[Learning_Genetics]

Yes. What is hard to understand about this? It's like spaniards who think their country is totally unmixed.

Being mixed is not the same as being wholly nonnative but I don't possibly understand how someone can take a stroll in London and not figure this out. Same thing that's happened in last 30 years has been going on for 2-3 centuries at a slower rate, and it started over 7 centuries ago. British empire was global, and it had zero concern for its own citizens, even kicked them out when possible and replaced as many workers as possible with foreigners who were cheaper.

What proof do you have of any of this?

You are claiming that we descend from all these different nationalities but do you have any proof?

The Highland Clearances, yes, those happened and the Gaelic Scots were replaced by lowlanders and Englishmen. I doubt they were replaced by Jews, Poles and Indians as you seem to be suggesting.

Likewise the emmigration of the puritans was due to their religious stance. What does that have to do with the remaining population in the UK? Just because some Englishmen left their homeland does it mean they were replaced by Jews, Indians and Poles?

[Grace O'Malley]

Yes. What is hard to understand about this? It's like spaniards who think their country is totally unmixed.

Being mixed is not the same as being wholly nonnative but I don't possibly understand how someone can take a stroll in London and not figure this out. Same thing that's happened in last 30 years has been going on for 2-3 centuries at a slower rate, and it started over 7 centuries ago. British empire was global, and it had zero concern for its own citizens, even kicked them out when possible and replaced as many workers as possible with foreigners who were cheaper.

Are you going to give me some hilarious excuses for hemoglobin D being all through the british isles but NOT in white americans now like grace o malley did? LOL



Again, what is so hard to understand? I get shocked by how little people know about their own history. Do you know where puritans lived and where they went?!?! Highland clearance?!?! Irish troubles?!?!

Have you had your dna done like me? How much Haemoglobin D is in the British Isles? Very little and not much different than other European countries. You just have some wacko theories. I took dna tests to see if I had something interesting in my past but it turns out I don't like the vast majority of Irish people.

Melonhead thinks all the Irish people are in the US and that Ireland has been repopulated with non-Irish.:) Melonhead you yourself are of mixed ancestry and appear just a typical American in that regard. Your dna test could be very interesting.

The Irish infact are one of the Europeans with the least admixture. If anyone has 23andMe AC breakdowns for any European nationality and compare with Irish people they will know what I'm talking about.