The Germanic populations according to Eurogenes K13

[Neon Knight]

Taking Danes as the central Germanics, I worked out the percentage overlap between them and other populations:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/Germanic%20Populations_zpsuntkw4jg.png

I find it hard to believe that English and Irish are closer to Danes than West and East Germans. Orkney should not be that high either.

[Jackson]

It's because the overlap is deeper than 'Germanic', the average for the individuals of German Bell Beaker descent should be somewhat similar, ie north central/north western European. This similarity seems to have been mostly laid down in the latest Neolithic and Bronze Age, and during and since then it's been mixed around a fair bit, but mixing like with like you're not going to make a great deal of difference. Southern Dutch/western Germans just have more French-like/southern European influence compared to those in the northern areas.

I mean the Bell Beaker average, and many of the Unetice and Urnfield individuals from Germany should be in the 90s or at least high 80s for similarity on that same chart.

You should do the same with your own results, or others, would be interesting. Could also do it with some of the ancient individuals if you know their GEDmatch IDs, or convert the spreadsheet to use Eurogenes K15 and then use the spreadsheets David/Eurogenes has up on his blog.

[Neon Knight]

It's because the overlap is deeper than 'Germanic', the average for the individuals of German Bell Beaker descent should be somewhat similar, ie north central/north western European. This similarity seems to have been mostly laid down in the latest Neolithic and Bronze Age, and during and since then it's been mixed around a fair bit, but mixing like with like you're not going to make a great deal of difference. Southern Dutch/western Germans just have more French-like/southern European influence compared to those in the northern areas.

I mean the Bell Beaker average, and many of the Unetice and Urnfield individuals from Germany should be in the 90s or at least high 80s for similarity on that same chart.

You should do the same with your own results, or others, would be interesting. Could also do it with some of the ancient individuals if you know their GEDmatch IDs, or convert the spreadsheet to use Eurogenes K15 and then use the spreadsheets David/Eurogenes has up on his blog.I'll tell you how I did it:

1) Made a list of all the components in which the Danes scored at least 0.5%.
2) Totaled the scores for all those components, which came to 98.24.
3) Wrote down the SE/Central English scores for all the Danish categories; if the ND score was higher than the Danish score then it was reduced to equal the Danish score (cutting off the excess).
4) Totaled the English scores and divided it by the Danish total: 92.89/98.24 = 94.6 (rounded off).
5) Repeated for all the other nearby populations and a few more for comparison.

So it's like fitting a piece of wood into a recess, taking into account how much you have to cut off to get it in and the gaps there once it is in.

Do you think this is a good method? I don't know what they do on GEDmatch to find the distances - my results come out similar but not the same:

K13 ORACLE
01 Orcadian 5.93
02 Southeast_English 5.98
03 Southwest_English 6.04
04 Irish 6.29
05 North_Dutch 6.56
06 South_Dutch 6.65
07 North_German 6.81
08 Danish 7.02
09 West_Scottish 7.2
10 West_German 7.77
11 Norwegian 8.08
12 Swedish 8.98
13 Austrian 11.47
14 East_German 11.55
15 French 11.74
16 North_Swedish 14.06
17 Hungarian 16.35


My Method
* Neon Knight 100%
01 Irish 93.4
02 North German 92.6
03 Orkney Islanders 92.5
04 Southeast English 92.2
05 North Dutch 92.0
06 Southwest English 91.9
07 West Scottish 91.7
08 South Dutch 91.2
09 Danish 91.2
10 Icelandic 90.9
11 West German 90.7
12 Norwegian 90.4
13 Swedish 89.8
14 Austrian 86.4
15 East German 86.2
16 French 84.9
17 North Swedish 84.0

[Jackson]

I'll tell you how I did it:

1) Made a list of all the components in which the Danes scored at least 0.5%.
2) Totaled the scores for all those components, which came to 98.24.
3) Wrote down the SE/Central English scores for all the Danish categories; if the ND score was higher than the Danish score then it was reduced to equal the Danish score (cutting off the excess).
4) Totaled the English scores and divided it by the Danish total: 92.89/98.24 = 94.6 (rounded off).
5) Repeated for all the other nearby populations and a few more for comparison.

So it's like fitting a piece of wood into a recess, taking into account how much you have to cut off to get it in and the gaps there once it is in.

Do you think this is a good method? I don't know what they do on GEDmatch to find the distances - my results come out similar but not the same:

K13 ORACLE
01 Orcadian 5.93
02 Southeast_English 5.98
03 Southwest_English 6.04
04 Irish 6.29
05 North_Dutch 6.56
06 South_Dutch 6.65
07 North_German 6.81
08 Danish 7.02
09 West_Scottish 7.2
10 West_German 7.77
11 Norwegian 8.08
12 Swedish 8.98
13 Austrian 11.47
14 East_German 11.55
15 French 11.74
16 North_Swedish 14.06
17 Hungarian 16.35


My Method
* Neon Knight 100%
01 Irish 93.4
02 North German 92.6
03 Orkney Islanders 92.5
04 Southeast English 92.2
05 North Dutch 92.0
06 Southwest English 91.9
07 West Scottish 91.7
08 South Dutch 91.2
09 Danish 91.2
10 Icelandic 90.9
11 West German 90.7
12 Norwegian 90.4
13 Swedish 89.8
14 Austrian 86.4
15 East German 86.2
16 French 84.9
17 North Swedish 84.0

Cheers, might give it a go when I've got the time. It seems to be pretty good yeah, or at least the populations seem to be fairly close to the other appropriate ones.

[Thrax]

Great idea. I've started calculating my closer populations with my K13 results as 100. I will post them later today.

[Thrax]

Greek Thessaly 92.42
Italian Abruzzo 92.32
Central Greek 91.14

East Sicilian 89.07
West Sicilian 88.17
Bulgarian 87.77
South Italian 86.92
Ashkenazi 85.08
Tuscan 84.65
Romanian 83.99
Sephardic Jewish 79.81
North Italian 79.30
Serbian 78.59
Moldavian 73.03
Cypriot 73.01
French 71.17

Turkish 69.72
Croatian 69.27
Portuguese 69.14
Hungarian 67.65
Austrian 67.19
West German 67.15
South Dutch 66.08
Spanish Castilla 65.20
Southwest French 64.22
Sardinian 64.10
Syrian 63.68
East German 63.61
Azeri 63.35
Lebanese Druze 62.94
Armenian 62.77
Algerian 60.68
Tunisian 60.41
Jordanian 60.23
Ukrainian 59.73
Southeast English 59.68
Georgian 58.61
North German 58.31
North Dutch 56.92
Irish 56.69
Polish 56.51
Adygei 56.50
Iranian 56.40
Moroccan 55.71
Belorussian 53.66
Egyptian 53.41
Norwegian 53.22
Icelandic 52.78
Swedish 52.40
Kargopol Russian 50.21

Lithuanian 49.10
French Basque 48.82
North Swedish 48.68
Estonian 45.83
Finnish 43.75

Oracle distances:
1 Greek_Thessaly @ 5.799398
2 Central_Greek @ 7.285522
3 Italian_Abruzzo @ 7.705205
4 East_Sicilian @ 9.156322
5 West_Sicilian @ 10.308450
6 Ashkenazi @ 11.375057
7 South_Italian @ 11.743980
8 Bulgarian @ 12.793817
9 Tuscan @ 12.857287
10 Romanian @ 15.258730
11 Sephardic_Jewish @ 18.054806
12 Italian_Jewish @ 18.094805
13 North_Italian @ 18.585070
14 Algerian_Jewish @ 18.713060
15 Serbian @ 20.094175
16 Tunisian_Jewish @ 22.264519
17 Libyan_Jewish @ 22.881041
18 Cyprian @ 24.245308
19 Turkish @ 24.825129
20 Moldavian @ 26.983362

[Neon Knight]

The Eurogenes K13 data for anyone who hasn't got the link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oz6P5-SVEJciPX1TciGe-zoqA5JtOGIMG7nh-rCOj0c/edit?pli=1#gid=804264822

[Imamudin]

I find it hard to believe that English and Irish are closer to Danes than West and East Germans. Orkney should not be that high either.

According to some new studies most modern Brits are descendants of French, Spanish and Belgian settlers and only 10-40% in South East England have Anglo-Saxon ancestry at all.

[Neon Knight]

According to some new studies most modern Brits are descendants of French, Spanish and Belgian settlers and only 10-40% in South East England have Anglo-Saxon ancestry at all.That's not really what they say. It's approximately like this:

CENTRAL/SOUTH ENGLISH
Norway/Sweden/Denmark/Germany 43%
Belgium 9%
France 46% (inc. slight Spanish)

NORTH WELSH
Norway/Sweden/Denmark/Germany 46%
Belgium 5%
France 40%
Spain 7%

SOUTH SCOTS
Norway/Sweden/Denmark/Germany 50%
Belgium 11%
France 34%
Spain 4%

I wasn't saying Brits and Irish should not be close to Danes, just that I expected W.Germans to be closer. But population genetics can throw up minor surprises like that.

[Insuperable]

Quite a big difference between North and South Dutch.

[Jackson]

According to some new studies most modern Brits are descendants of French, Spanish and Belgian settlers and only 10-40% in South East England have Anglo-Saxon ancestry at all.

Actually it's rather that 10-40% of the ancestry of south-central England is 'Anglo Saxon', a bit is also Scandinavian, and from Belgium/low countries, and the other major chunk is shared with northern France, and small bits with France and Spain more broadly. It's interesting as the 3 most ancient links in Britain are with France, western Germany and Belgium, probably reflects shared Bell Beaker ancestry IMO.

[Neon Knight]

Quite a big difference between North and South Dutch.Yeah. Looks like something wrong with the sampling or readings there. The same difference between North Dutch and Belgian I could have believed.

[Imamudin]

That's not really what they say. It's approximately like this:

CENTRAL/SOUTH ENGLISH
Norway/Sweden/Denmark/Germany 43%
Belgium 9%
France 46% (inc. slight Spanish)

NORTH WELSH
Norway/Sweden/Denmark/Germany 46%
Belgium 5%
France 40%
Spain 7%

SOUTH SCOTS
Norway/Sweden/Denmark/Germany 50%
Belgium 11%
France 34%
Spain 4%

I wasn't saying Brits and Irish should not be close to Danes, just that I expected W.Germans to be closer. But population genetics can throw up minor surprises like that.

You would be the closest to South Germans if anything.

[Hevo]

Quite a big difference between North and South Dutch.

Yeah, the Rhine is a genetic border between Northern and Southern Dutch and it makes sense because of historical events etc.

[Imamudin]

Actually it's rather that 10-40% of the ancestry of south-central England is 'Anglo Saxon', a bit is also Scandinavian, and from Belgium/low countries, and the other major chunk is shared with northern France, and small bits with France and Spain more broadly. It's interesting as the 3 most ancient links in Britain are with France, western Germany and Belgium, probably reflects shared Bell Beaker ancestry IMO.

This is exactly what I've said. Germans and Brits have a whole different genetic composition.

[Neon Knight]

This is exactly what I've said. Germans and Brits have a whole different genetic composition.In most areas of Britain, about 30% of the DNA is exactly what the Germans have. One of the main cluster maps from a few years ago shows the British shifting towards Netherlands/Belgium (which seems to make more sense than Denmark). The Irish are just a bit more Western.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/genmap3.jpg

[blubb]

I did a similar analysis starting from West Germans, downloaded the K13 sheet, and calculated similarity by adding up the minimum of each component of West_German and the comparison population:

sim = min(N_Atlantic_in_West_German;N_Atlantic_in_compar ison_pop) + min(Baltic_in_West_German;Baltic_in_comparison_pop ) + ...

Here it is

http://fs2.directupload.net/images/150404/tzc2rodb.png

High similarity with Soutch Dutch is not surprising, nicely shows the continuity of Salian, Ripuarian and Rhine Franks. High sim to England is surprising though, I would've expected North Germans to be between us and the English, same with Irish being unexpectedly closer than North Dutch. Also wouldn't have expected French to be closer than other Germans.
Also seems to show that the Alps are indeed a strong genetic barrier, North Italians are more distant than Balkanites (including the geographically very distant Bulgarians), Ukrainians and even Southern Iberians!

[Imamudin]

In most areas of Britain, about 30% of the DNA is exactly what the Germans have. One of the main cluster maps from a few years ago shows the British shifting towards Netherlands/Belgium (which seems to make more sense than Denmark). The Irish are just a bit more Western.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/genmap3.jpg

I have told you how the facts really are. You're totally different than the Germans.

[Black Wolf]

Actually it's rather that 10-40% of the ancestry of south-central England is 'Anglo Saxon', a bit is also Scandinavian, and from Belgium/low countries, and the other major chunk is shared with northern France, and small bits with France and Spain more broadly. It's interesting as the 3 most ancient links in Britain are with France, western Germany and Belgium, probably reflects shared Bell Beaker ancestry IMO.

This could be why so many French, German and Dutch people at 23andme score around 30% or so in the British and Irish component on Ancestry Composition.

[Jackson]

This is exactly what I've said. Germans and Brits have a whole different genetic composition.

Hardly, in terms of overall similarity we are more similar to the Germans than to French or Scandinavians. Of course in terms of shared ancestry the majority of it is more ancient than the last 2000 years.

Of course it depends on which Germans you use, western Germans are more similar to the French than us, north Germans more similar to Scandinavians and east more similar to west Slavic speakers etc. Germany is less genetically homogeneous than Britain, and most of what we do share with them is with western and northern areas. We share a big chunk with northern France & France in general.

Well you said that only 10-40% have any 'German'/Anglo-Saxon ancestry at all, when it's rather that all have this ancestry, but it makes up 10-40% of their ancestry. Two very different things.

[Rudel]

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/Germanic%20Populations_zpsuntkw4jg.png
Oh wow, we were this close :whoo:

[Sockorer]

Oh wow, we were this close :whoo:
Hail Wotan, my Germanic brother.

[Rudel]

Hail Wotan, my Germanic brother.
Don't take me wrong. I'm relieved to not be Germanic, not the other way around.

[Sockorer]

Don't take me wrong. I'm relieved to not be Germanic, not the other way around.

You are as Germanic as they come Rudel, we accept you.

[Rudel]

You are as Germanic as they come Rudel, we accept you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw2sex1mJNI

[Neon Knight]

Oh wow, we were this close :whoo:Before I compiled the list, I said to myself: "Any population that scores > 87.5% (> 7/8) can be called Germanic", but when I'd finished I saw that would mean leaving out the East Germans, Austrians and North Swedes and so to avoid controversy I lowered the standard to 85% to let them in :joker000:

But maybe the northeastern French would qualify. Judgement is reserved.

[Loki]

Orkney should not be that high either.

I'm not surprised with Orkney, their ancestors were almost all Vikings.

[Loki]

Oh wow, we were this close :whoo:

Remember that is a French average. I suspect the northeast French would be much higher .. comparable with West Germany. The south and west is dragging down the average.

[Neon Knight]

I'm not surprised with Orkney, their ancestors were almost all Vikings.http://www.orcadian.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/IMG_1388.jpg

Where would they pass? :)

[Loki]

Where would they pass? :)

In Orkney? :P

[Dylan]

Greek Thessaly 92.42
Italian Abruzzo 92.32
Central Greek 91.14

East Sicilian 89.07
West Sicilian 88.17
Bulgarian 87.77
South Italian 86.92
Ashkenazi 85.08
Tuscan 84.65
Romanian 83.99
Sephardic Jewish 79.81
North Italian 79.30
Serbian 78.59
Moldavian 73.03
Cypriot 73.01
French 71.17

Turkish 69.72
Croatian 69.27
Portuguese 69.14
Hungarian 67.65
Austrian 67.19
West German 67.15
South Dutch 66.08
Spanish Castilla 65.20
Southwest French 64.22
Sardinian 64.10
Syrian 63.68
East German 63.61
Azeri 63.35
Lebanese Druze 62.94
Armenian 62.77
Algerian 60.68
Tunisian 60.41
Jordanian 60.23
Ukrainian 59.73
Southeast English 59.68
Georgian 58.61
North German 58.31
North Dutch 56.92
Irish 56.69
Polish 56.51
Adygei 56.50
Iranian 56.40
Moroccan 55.71
Belorussian 53.66
Egyptian 53.41
Norwegian 53.22
Icelandic 52.78
Swedish 52.40
Kargopol Russian 50.21

Lithuanian 49.10
French Basque 48.82
North Swedish 48.68
Estonian 45.83
Finnish 43.75

Oracle distances:
1 Greek_Thessaly @ 5.799398
2 Central_Greek @ 7.285522
3 Italian_Abruzzo @ 7.705205
4 East_Sicilian @ 9.156322
5 West_Sicilian @ 10.308450
6 Ashkenazi @ 11.375057
7 South_Italian @ 11.743980
8 Bulgarian @ 12.793817
9 Tuscan @ 12.857287
10 Romanian @ 15.258730
11 Sephardic_Jewish @ 18.054806
12 Italian_Jewish @ 18.094805
13 North_Italian @ 18.585070
14 Algerian_Jewish @ 18.713060
15 Serbian @ 20.094175
16 Tunisian_Jewish @ 22.264519
17 Libyan_Jewish @ 22.881041
18 Cyprian @ 24.245308
19 Turkish @ 24.825129
20 Moldavian @ 26.983362

Any idea why you scored so high for Abruzzese? higher than central greece and siclian as a greek seems pretty interesting. I know Chieti was founded by Pelopennesian Greeks and Ancona just north was founded by Greeks as well (2000 years ago), but it seems odd that you'd score so high for them.

[Grace O'Malley]

I did a similar analysis starting from West Germans, downloaded the K13 sheet, and calculated similarity by adding up the minimum of each component of West_German and the comparison population:

sim = min(N_Atlantic_in_West_German;N_Atlantic_in_compar ison_pop) + min(Baltic_in_West_German;Baltic_in_comparison_pop ) + ...

Here it is

http://fs2.directupload.net/images/150404/tzc2rodb.png

High similarity with Soutch Dutch is not surprising, nicely shows the continuity of Salian, Ripuarian and Rhine Franks. High sim to England is surprising though, I would've expected North Germans to be between us and the English, same with Irish being unexpectedly closer than North Dutch. Also wouldn't have expected French to be closer than other Germans.
Also seems to show that the Alps are indeed a strong genetic barrier, North Italians are more distant than Balkanites (including the geographically very distant Bulgarians), Ukrainians and even Southern Iberians!

I used to be baffled about why I always got North Dutch. I wonder if it has anything to do with the Belgae? What other reasons would there be? Another conclusion I've come to is that a lot of these populations might have been Rhenish Bell Beakers.

[Grace O'Malley]

It's because the overlap is deeper than 'Germanic', the average for the individuals of German Bell Beaker descent should be somewhat similar, ie north central/north western European. This similarity seems to have been mostly laid down in the latest Neolithic and Bronze Age, and during and since then it's been mixed around a fair bit, but mixing like with like you're not going to make a great deal of difference. Southern Dutch/western Germans just have more French-like/southern European influence compared to those in the northern areas.

I mean the Bell Beaker average, and many of the Unetice and Urnfield individuals from Germany should be in the 90s or at least high 80s for similarity on that same chart.

You should do the same with your own results, or others, would be interesting. Could also do it with some of the ancient individuals if you know their GEDmatch IDs, or convert the spreadsheet to use Eurogenes K15 and then use the spreadsheets David/Eurogenes has up on his blog.

That explains it quite nicely.

[blubb]

I used to be baffled about why I always got North Dutch. I wonder if it has anything to do with the Belgae? What other reasons would there be? Another conclusion I've come to is that a lot of these populations might have been Rhenish Bell Beakers.

Well, I guess those who settled the British Isles first some thousand years ago also mostly came from around that area (just like the Anglo-Saxon invaders later), makes sense because this is where the land bridge (Doggerland) used to be

[Thrax]

Any idea why you scored so high for Abruzzese? higher than central greece and siclian as a greek seems pretty interesting. I know Chieti was founded by Pelopennesian Greeks and Ancona just north was founded by Greeks as well (2000 years ago), but it seems odd that you'd score so high for them.

No idea, maybe just a coincidence. I don't have any known recent italian ancestry.

[Dylan]

No idea, maybe just a coincidence. I don't have any known recent italian ancestry.

Yeah, it makes me wonder. My grandmother is 50% Abruzzese and people on here including myself think she looks more Greek than Italian. I wonder if Abruzzo has a Greek connection. It's strange since it was not part of Magna Graecia.

[Neon Knight]

Well, I guess those who settled the British Isles first some thousand years ago also mostly came from around that area (just like the Anglo-Saxon invaders later), makes sense because this is where the land bridge (Doggerland) used to beThat's what I think. It helps explain why the Welsh have more of the West German DNA 'preserved' than the English.

[Pendragon]

I used the method of Neon Knight for 4 French regions:
Northwestern French: N = 7
Lille (French Flanders): N = 3
French (mainly East center)
SouthWestern French

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/K13France.png

[Sikeliot]

Also seems to show that the Alps are indeed a strong genetic barrier, North Italians are more distant than Balkanites (including the geographically very distant Bulgarians), Ukrainians and even Southern Iberians!

Iberians plot north of northern Italians on PCA plots, as do most Balkanites (i.e. nearly all of them except for Greeks and Albanians). This does not surprise me at all to be honest.


Any idea why you scored so high for Abruzzese? higher than central greece and siclian as a greek seems pretty interesting. I know Chieti was founded by Pelopennesian Greeks and Ancona just north was founded by Greeks as well (2000 years ago), but it seems odd that you'd score so high for them.


Because both Abruzzo and Greece plot north of southern Italians, so they come out coincidnetally similar. I would be very surprised if a full mainland Greek was closer to Sicilians than to Abruzzese.

[Neon Knight]

I calculated the overlaps for the Southeastern English. This time I used all thirteen categories for maximum accuracy:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/Britannic%20Populations%20League_zpsjqtj8zjc.png

[Carignan]

They should have divided France in regions, it is not really homogeneous overall.

[Neon Knight]

They should have divided France in regions, it is not really homogeneous overall.Yes, a very large area of land with the south-west partially separated by moutains.

[Carignan]

Yes, a very large area of land with the south-west partially separated by moutains.

genetically

[Neon Knight]

geneticallyYes, that was my implication - genetically somewhat diverse due to the geography.

[Jackson]

I calculated the overlaps for the Southeastern English. This time I used all thirteen categories for maximum accuracy:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/Britannic%20Populations%20League_zpsjqtj8zjc.png

Very interesting, makes sense.

[Neon Knight]

Very interesting, makes sense.Yeah, I thought it came out very intuitively, although Serbs and Romanians are closer than I expected. I think it's safe to say that northern French would get about 90%.

[Imamudin]

Hardly, in terms of overall similarity we are more similar to the Germans than to French or Scandinavians.

Your closest relatives are not Germans or Scandinavians, but the French, Dutch, Spaniards and Belgians.

[Ctwentysevenj]

Taking Danes as the central Germanics, I worked out the percentage overlap between them and other populations:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/Germanic%20Populations_zpsuntkw4jg.png

I find it hard to believe that English and Irish are closer to Danes than West and East Germans. Orkney should not be that high either.

Would the main reason why Austrians rate where they do, is because of a Slavic influence?

[Imamudin]

Would the main reason why Austrians rate where they do, is because of a Slavic influence?

How do you mean it?

[Ctwentysevenj]

How do you mean it?

Scoring 85.8%

[Imamudin]

Scoring 85.8%

North and East Germans resemble Slavs more than Austrians do.

[Neon Knight]

Would the main reason why Austrians rate where they do, is because of a Slavic influence?I think it shows that Germanic speakers do not make up a very close genetic group, but still a fairly close one. Poles are physically closer to Denmark than Austrians but they score significantly lower (79 to 86). The Irish come high because, as Jackson explained, British Isles Celts and Germanics came from pretty much the same ancient populations.

[Jackson]

Your closest relatives are not Germans or Scandinavians, but the French, Dutch, Spaniards and Belgians.

Northern French, Belgians and Dutch are our closest relatives yes. France is a large place, i should have been more specific. Although it varies, i'm closer to the Belgians and northern French than some other posters, who are closer to Scandinavians and northern Germans than i am, for example.

The Spanish aren't really that close to us genetically (in relative terms, that is), although there seems to have been some degree of gene-flow up and down the Atlantic coast.

[Imamudin]

Northern French, Belgians and Dutch are our closest relatives yes. France is a large place, i should have been more specific. Although it varies, i'm closer to the Belgians and northern French than some other posters, who are closer to Scandinavians and northern Germans than i am, for example.

The Spanish aren't really that close to us genetically (in relative terms, that is), although there seems to have been some degree of gene-flow up and down the Atlantic coast.

Germans neither apparently. Even the English who are of all British people the closest to the Germans are closer to the Spanish and a bunch of others.

[Ctwentysevenj]

How do you mean it?

I assume the lower score because a relative high Slavic influence in Austrians, especially in the south and east. The provinces Carinthia and Southern Styria I believe have a lot of Slovenian influences.

[Petalpusher]

Austrians have loads of Baltic on average, like Croats.

[Imamudin]

I assume the lower score because a relative high Slavic influence in Austrians, especially in the south and east. The provinces Carinthia and Southern Styria I believe have a lot of Slovenian influences.

The whole table is far away from reality.

[Imamudin]

Austrians have loads of Baltic on average, like Croats.

Germans have more Baltic than Austrians. Especially in North East Germany it's very common.

[Grace O'Malley]

Germans neither apparently. Even the English who are of all British people the closest to the Germans are closer to the Spanish and a bunch of others.

Have you even looked at people's results? You are way off as Germans are far closer than Spanish to any British Isles populations. I'm Irish so I wouldn't call myself Germanic but I get North Dutch (my no 1 pop on the K13) and North German in the Eurogenes K13 before I even get any English population. I've also seen an Irish person whose no 1 pop on the K13 is North German. Any Spanish regions are very distant. From your comments you don't appear to have checked any population statistics. It is obvious that these populations have some close ancestral ties whether people want to accept that or not.

The North Germans are definitely closer to any British Isles populations also Dutch and Scandinavians (especially Norwegians). I'm speaking mostly from looking at Irish results but the British populations would be similar.

[Imamudin]

The North Germans are definitely closer to any British Isles populations also Dutch and Scandinavians (especially Norwegians). I'm speaking mostly from looking at Irish results but the British populations would be similar.

North Germans are the closest to East Germans, Danes and Icelanders, and even closer to Poles and Czechs than to the English.

[Grace O'Malley]

North Germans are the closest to East Germans, Danes and Icelanders, and even closer to Poles and Czechs than to the English.

All those populations are fairly close together. There are loads of those cluster maps around. The English (and all British Islanders) are also close to North Germans.

http://nextnature.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/genetic_map_of_europe_530.jpg

Here is my Eurogenes K13

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Dutch @ 3.229219
2 Irish @ 3.414209
3 Norwegian @ 3.969620
4 West_Scottish @ 4.154647
5 Danish @ 4.244350
6 Orcadian @ 4.255836
7 North_German @ 5.967971
8 Southeast_English @ 6.869505
9 Southwest_English @ 6.894413
10 Swedish @ 7.120302
11 South_Dutch @ 11.453406
12 West_German @ 12.494723
13 North_Swedish @ 14.270684
14 Austrian @ 17.248459
15 East_German @ 17.379379
16 French @ 17.922009
17 Hungarian @ 22.268965
18 Southwest_Finnish @ 23.637180
19 Spanish_Cataluna @ 26.201269
20 Southwest_French @ 27.184601

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +50% Norwegian @ 2.484299


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% North_Dutch +25% Norwegian @ 2.481593


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.481593
2 Irish + Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 2.484299
3 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.516863
4 Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.542499
5 Irish + North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.579951
6 North_German + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.591957
7 Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.612724
8 Irish + Irish + North_German + Norwegian @ 2.622498
9 Irish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.633069
10 Danish + Irish + Irish + Norwegian @ 2.649204
11 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swedish @ 2.650396
12 Irish + Irish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 2.662073
13 North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.664009
14 Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian @ 2.674993
15 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.680257
16 Danish + Irish + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.693465
17 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch @ 2.712084
18 North_Dutch + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.718063
19 Irish + North_Dutch + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 2.736863
20 Irish + North_Dutch + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 2.741791

Here is the K13 of another Irish person I share with.

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_German @ 5.141754
2 South_Dutch @ 6.469499
3 North_Dutch @ 6.548832
4 West_German @ 6.851539
5 Danish @ 6.868636
6 Southeast_English @ 7.160068
7 Orcadian @ 7.335664
8 Irish @ 7.853486
9 Southwest_English @ 8.412169
10 Norwegian @ 8.505351
11 West_Scottish @ 9.011097
12 Swedish @ 9.062082
13 Austrian @ 10.887987
14 East_German @ 11.519069
15 French @ 13.179267
16 North_Swedish @ 14.527737
17 Hungarian @ 16.310152
18 Spanish_Cataluna @ 21.508478
19 Croatian @ 22.163723
20 Southwest_Finnish @ 22.414465

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Austrian +50% Irish @ 3.436412


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% Moldavian +25% Southwest_English @ 2.670961


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Irish + Irish + Moldavian + Southwest_English @ 2.670961
2 Irish + Irish + Irish + Moldavian @ 2.731309
3 Irish + Moldavian + Southwest_English + West_Scottish @ 2.777589
4 Irish + Irish + Moldavian + West_Scottish @ 2.800064
5 Irish + Moldavian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.921902
6 Irish + Moldavian + Southwest_English + Southwest_English @ 2.954504
7 Moldavian + Southwest_English + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.974198
8 Irish + Irish + Irish + Serbian @ 2.984680
9 Irish + Irish + Moldavian + Orcadian @ 2.994311
10 Irish + Moldavian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 3.004859
11 Irish + Irish + Moldavian + Southeast_English @ 3.047534
12 Austrian + Irish + Irish + West_German @ 3.071505
13 Irish + Moldavian + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 3.077554
14 Moldavian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.096734
15 Irish + Moldavian + North_Dutch + Southwest_English @ 3.101692
16 Croatian + Irish + Irish + Southwest_English @ 3.103679
17 East_German + Irish + Irish + West_German @ 3.107911
18 Moldavian + Southwest_English + Southwest_English + West_Scottish @ 3.128572
19 Moldavian + Orcadian + Southwest_English + West_Scottish @ 3.140884
20 Irish + Moldavian + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 3.143646

[Anglojew]

Fascinating

[Grace O'Malley]

I look on Germanic as a language group and it is obvious with people like the Irish who have a Celtic identity that this similarity with Germanic people is due to ancient ancestry possibly Bell Beaker or Corded Ware.

[Jackson]

Germans neither apparently. Even the English who are of all British people the closest to the Germans are closer to the Spanish and a bunch of others.

Not really we can't on one hand be close to the Belgians and Dutch and not be close to western and northern Germans. In general British people as a whole are closest to Dutch & Belgians, northern and western Germans, northern French and Scandinavians, ie northwest Europeans. Northwest Europeans in general are descended primarily from the same groups of people, that were like the Bell Beaker individuals recently tested (the ones in Germany, funny enough - although i would have thought that similar individuals must have also been further west as well) - more specifically people that made corded beakers in north-central Europe. It's been considered that these Beaker individuals had a demographic impact (from along the Rhine, and from along the Atlantic coast) for well over a century, although only recently they have been identified as being incomers to their regions (ie like the individuals in corded Ware but with some local farmer admixture). These individuals must have been in Spain as well as France and Britain, but they left a more lasting impact in northern & central Europe than in southern Europe clearly, as southern Europeans have more EEF admixture, and also some post-Neolithic near eastern admixture (mainly Greece, Italy and the Balkans though iirc).

[Imamudin]

Not really we can't on one hand be close to the Belgians and Dutch and not be close to western and northern Germans. In general British people as a whole are closest to Dutch & Belgians, northern and western Germans, northern French and Scandinavians, ie northwest Europeans. Northwest Europeans in general are descended primarily from the same groups of people, that were like the Bell Beaker individuals recently tested (the ones in Germany, funny enough - although i would have thought that similar individuals must have also been further west as well) - more specifically people that made corded beakers in north-central Europe. It's been considered that these Beaker individuals had a demographic impact (from along the Rhine, and from along the Atlantic coast) for well over a century, although only recently they have been identified as being incomers to their regions (ie like the individuals in corded Ware but with some local farmer admixture). These individuals must have been in Spain as well as France and Britain, but they left a more lasting impact in northern & central Europe than in southern Europe clearly, as southern Europeans have more EEF admixture, and also some post-Neolithic near eastern admixture (mainly Greece, Italy and the Balkans though iirc).

Germans are not your closest relatives. The Dutch, West Germans and North Germans differ heavily from each other. In fact, the Dutch are even closer connected with South Germans than with North Germans.

[OnceLord]

Do we have samples from the southeast counties? The lumping of central and southern England makes sense historically but that will undoubtedly blur the distinctions somewhat, right? Intuitive for the east and south to be the most 'Germanic' of the country.

[Jackson]

Germans are not your closest relatives. The Dutch, West Germans and North Germans differ heavily from each other. In fact, the Dutch are even closer connected with South Germans than with North Germans.

No, that's not the case. There is a divide between the north and south Dutch, with the southern Dutch being more similar to Belgians & western Germans, and the northern Dutch being more similar to Danes & north Germans.

[Imamudin]

No, that's not the case. There is a divide between the north and south Dutch, with the southern Dutch being more similar to Belgians & western Germans, and the northern Dutch being more similar to Danes & north Germans.

No, the Dutch are not very similar to North Germans or Danes. They're even closer to North Italians than to North Germans.

[Neon Knight]

No, the Dutch are not very similar to North Germans or Danes. They're even closer to North Italians than to North Germans.

http://skepticalhumanities.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/spot-the-looney.jpg

[Neon Knight]

Northern French, Belgians and Dutch are our closest relatives yes. France is a large place, i should have been more specific. Although it varies, i'm closer to the Belgians and northern French than some other posters, who are closer to Scandinavians and northern Germans than i am, for example.How did you come to that conclusion? From GEDmatch?

[Imamudin]

http://skepticalhumanities.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/spot-the-looney.jpg

I can't understand how you can be so blind.

[Neon Knight]

I can't understand how you can be so blind.I didn't want to insult you, and no hard feelings, but you really are far off the mark saying that Dutch are closer to North Italians than Danes and Germans. Just look at some genetic maps of Europe - scientific findings.

[Imamudin]

I didn't want to insult you, and no hard feelings, but you really are far off the mark saying that Dutch are closer to North Italians than Danes and Germans. Just look at some genetic maps of Europe - scientific findings.

They're closer related to Danes than to North Italians, but closer to North Italians than to North Germans.

[щрбл]

Stupid question... how do you get all the data sets to come up with these general statistics? :)

[Oneeye]

I'm not sure what point Шишани is trying to make. Trying to discredit the Germanic ties that the British Isles and the Netherlands have? xD

Spain is clear over in Timbuktu relatively to German populations for them. I have yet to see any plot that shows Spaniards or Northern Italians closer to Dutch or Brits.

[Hevo]

I'm not sure what point Шишани is trying to make. Trying to discredit the Germanic ties that the British Isles and the Netherlands have? xD

Spain is clear over in Timbuktu relatively to German populations for them. I have yet to see any plot that shows Spaniards or Northern Italians closer to Dutch or Brits.

Meh, he makes the old Y-Haplogroup= autosomal data fallacy.:P

Even the most Southern Dutch person is still closer to a Northern German than to a Northern Italian.

[Oneeye]

Meh, he makes the old Y-Haplogroup= autosomal data fallacy.:P

Even the most Southern Dutch person is still closer to a Northern German than to a Northern Italian.



It doesn't make sense to NOT be more closely related to your neighbors than some group on the other side of the Alps xD

[Petalpusher]

They're closer related to Danes than to North Italians, but closer to North Italians than to North Germans.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Haplogroup doesn't mean much, without the subclades it means almost nothing (at the West Euro scale)


Just look at k13/k15 averages or some genetic plot map (and about Austrians too)

[Imamudin]

It doesn't make sense to NOT be more closely related to your neighbors than some group on the other side of the Alps xD

The Dutch are closely related only to West Germans, but not so much to North Germans or Danes. It doesn't matter if it makes sense to you.

[Grace O'Malley]

The Dutch are closely related only to West Germans, but not so much to North Germans or Danes. It doesn't matter if it makes sense to you.

Just a simple question. Do you understand the difference between y-dna and autosomal dna?

[Imamudin]

Just a simple question. Do you understand the difference between y-dna and autosomal dna?

Of course, are you kidding me?

[Grace O'Malley]

Of course, are you kidding me?

No I wasn't kidding because you were using y-dna to judge the genetic closeness of populations. Only autosomal dna can show how close populations are. Anyway you are incorrect with some of your information so I was wondering what you were using to come to your conclusions?

[Hevo]

It doesn't make sense to NOT be more closely related to your neighbors than some group on the other side of the Alps xD

Indeed, unless the Western Germans and the Dutch people are a bunch of Germanized Romans/Gauls.xD

[Imamudin]

I'm not sure what point Шишани is trying to make. Trying to discredit the Germanic ties that the British Isles and the Netherlands have? xD

No, it's just that the British have more ties to other countries at the Atlantic fringe than to Germans or Scandinavians.

[Oneeye]

No, it's just that the British have more ties to other countries at the Atlantic fringe than to Germans or Scandinavians.



How about you give a reason to take your word over Neon Knight's work or the distances given at Gedmatch for calculators such as Eurogenes?


Here are my K13 results, for the hell of it: I'm a mix of English and German (northern and some southwestern)

1 South_Dutch 4.7
2 Southeast_English 4.8
3 West_German 4.82
4 North_German 5.2
5 North_Dutch 5.66
6 Orcadian 5.84
7 Danish 6
8 Irish 6.37
9 Southwest_English 6.51
10 West_Scottish 7.06
11 Norwegian 7.93
12 Swedish 9.21
13 French 10.21
14 Austrian 10.79
15 East_German 11.81
16 North_Swedish 14.41
17 Hungarian 15.19
18 Spanish_Cataluna 17.75
19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 19.02
20 Spanish_Galicia 19.17


1 Irish + North_Dutch + West_German + West_German @ 2.241104
2 Romanian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.250088
3 Irish + North_German + West_German + West_German @ 2.253826
4 Irish + Romanian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.264966
5 North_German + West_German + West_German + West_Scottish @ 2.322521
6 Irish + Irish + Romanian + West_Scottish @ 2.338461
7 Irish + Irish + West_German + West_German @ 2.381012
8 Danish + Irish + West_German + West_German @ 2.429807
9 North_Dutch + West_German + West_German + West_Scottish @ 2.436826
10 Irish + Irish + Irish + Romanian @ 2.455630
11 Irish + North_German + South_Dutch + West_German @ 2.458937
12 North_Dutch + Orcadian + West_German + West_German @ 2.474114
13 Irish + Orcadian + West_German + West_German @ 2.482409
14 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + West_German + West_German @ 2.510463
15 North_German + Southwest_English + West_German + West_German @ 2.533796
16 Bulgarian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.537202
17 Irish + Norwegian + West_German + West_German @ 2.537727
18 North_German + Orcadian + West_German + West_German @ 2.550852
19 North_German + South_Dutch + West_German + West_Scottish @ 2.552139
20 Irish + Southeast_English + West_German + West_German @ 2.567748

[Imamudin]

Even the most Southern Dutch person is still closer to a Northern German than to a Northern Italian.

No, the Dutch and North Italians are closer connected with each other.

[Grace O'Malley]

No, it's just that the British have more ties to other countries at the Atlantic fringe than to Germans or Scandinavians.

Not according to history they don't. Just look at the surrounding countries. There are definite genetic ties to Northern France but also to places like Scandinavia, the Benelux, and Germany. This is even pre-dating the Anglo-Saxons coming to Britain. These ties are ancient. All Europeans have a relationship to some extent but North Western European countries have very deep genetic connections. All North Western Europe form a genetic cluster so no one can deny that they have a stonger connection with each other than other areas of Europe. That is just obvious.

http://pichoster.net/images/2014/02/13/Eurasia%20PCA.png

Here's one showing where I plot.

http://i59.tinypic.com/j91nr5.jpg[/QUOTE]

[Hevo]

No, the Dutch and North Italians are closer connected with each other.


Based on Y-haplogroup frequencies? Common mistake.

It's like this.

Y-DNA is a marker in Y chromosome useful to know distant ancestry on paternal lineage. The marker is inherited by men only.
mtDNA is a marker in mitochondria useful to know distant ancestry on maternal lineage. The marker is inherited by men and women.
Autosomal DNA (Autosomes or aDNA) is in nuclei of 22 pairs of chromosomes out of 23 pairs inherited from both parents containing nearly complete genetic record. Autosomal DNA cannot be used to test distant ancestry.

I can tell you right away that the Dutch are not anywhere close to Northern Italians based on Autosomal DNA.

[Imamudin]

Not according to history they don't. Just look at the surrounding countries. There are definite genetic ties to Northern France but also to places like Scandinavia, the Benelux, and Germany. This is even pre-dating the Anglo-Saxons coming to Britain. These ties are ancient. All Europeans have a relationship to some extent but North Western European countries have very deep genetic connections. All North Western Europe form a genetic cluster so no one can deny that they have a stonger connection with each other than other areas of Europe. That is just obvious.

I am aware of it, but some resemble each other more and some less, and the genetic connection between British people and Germans or Scandinavians is clearly exaggerated here by some British people.

[Imamudin]

I can tell you right away that the Dutch are not anywhere close to Northern Italians based on Autosomal DNA.

They aren't, but to North Germans and Danes neither. Their closest relatives would be Belgians, West Germans and the English.

[Grace O'Malley]

I am aware of it, but some resemble each other more and some less, and the genetic connection between British people and Germans or Scandinavians is clearly exaggerated here by some British people.

I've learned to change my views over the years especially understanding a bit about genetics. I'm interested in genetics mainly from a personal basis but have broaded my interests to other regions because we are all connected no matter how tenuous. I used to believe that the Irish were a completely different population genetically than especially the English. I was brought up to believe that we were Celts and that the English were Anglo-Saxons. It took me a while to grasp genetics but eventually you do realise that a lot of these labels such as Celt or Anglo-Saxon are cultural to a certain degree. I still identify as a Celt of course but now I know that I'm much the same as my "Germanic" neighbours genetically. Some people still don't think about this subject either logically or unemotionally. Looking at genetics it is obvious that the people that settled Ireland and Britain came from the northern regions of Europe. They most likely came up the Rhine and crossed over from Northern France and the Netherlands. There is also some connection with Scandinavia that pre-dates the Vikings.

[Jackson]

How did you come to that conclusion? From GEDmatch?

Yeah, well everything put together. I'm at the southern/southeastern edge of the British Isles grouping, you can see it in many of the PCAs of admixture runs that Graham put together. I probably have ancestry from somewhere on the continent on my mums side within the genealogical time-frame, although i don't know where from yet.

[Jackson]

They're closer related to Danes than to North Italians, but closer to North Italians than to North Germans.

Lol, that makes no sense

[Imamudin]

Lol, that makes no sense

Why? The Dutch are not that close to North Germans or Danes as you think. They're rather comparable with West Germans.

[Hevo]

They aren't, but to North Germans and Danes neither. Their closest relatives would be Belgians, West Germans and the English.

Based on Y-Haplogroup frequencies maybe but i already explained why a Y-haplogroup is irrelevant for the genetic similarity of nations. Autosomal dna is the key.

[Gooding]

Here's my offering on this fascinating topic. :) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3000998/Are-Welsh-truest-Brits-English-genomes-contain-German-French-DNA-Romans-left-no-trace.html As you may see, the English to the Southern and central areas of the country have significant French and German portions in their DNA, while the North and South Welsh differ far more from each other than the English differ from the Scots. With that in mind and also bearing in mind that the DNA signatures among many of the Protestants of Northern Ireland are almost evenly divided along the same lines as their Highland and Lowland kindred back in Scotland, one can see that the diversity has gone back centuries earlier than was previously supposed. I chuckle when I think that according to this articles, the English carry a relatively hefty French genetic signature. Apparently, the Normans weren't the first Gallic group to step onto British shores.

[Oneeye]

Based on Y-Haplogroup frequencies maybe but i already explained why a Y-haplogroup is irrelevant for the genetic similarity of nations. Autosomal dna is the key.

Imagine some guy dismissing a son that shares 50% autosomal DNA to be his, until the y haplogroup results come back xD

[Jackson]

Why? The Dutch are not that close to North Germans or Danes as you think. They're rather comparable with West Germans.

They are all pretty close, plus as i said the southern Dutch are closer to west Germans than they are to north Germans, and it's the other way around for the northern Dutch - but overall they are all quite similar.

I'm assuming you are a troll.

[Graham]

Why? The Dutch are not that close to North Germans or Danes as you think. They're rather comparable with West Germans.

North Dutch are close to the Danish & North Germans.

South Dutch are close with the French(exl South France) & West Germany. Most likely Belgium also.

There's a division in Dutch genetics & it shows extremely well in the K8 to back up K13.

[Neon Knight]

Yeah, well everything put together. I'm at the southern/southeastern edge of the British Isles grouping, you can see it in many of the PCAs of admixture runs that Graham put together. I probably have ancestry from somewhere on the continent on my mums side within the genealogical time-frame, although i don't know where from yet.If you had another test with a different company and then put the data through GEDmatch (esp. K13) then it might well give somewhat different results. From what I've seen I suspect AncestryDNA + GEDmatch gives the most accuracy. Not always affordable though, I know.

[Neon Knight]

Here's my offering on this fascinating topic. :) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3000998/Are-Welsh-truest-Brits-English-genomes-contain-German-French-DNA-Romans-left-no-trace.html As you may see, the English to the Southern and central areas of the country have significant French and German portions in their DNA, while the North and South Welsh differ far more from each other than the English differ from the Scots. With that in mind and also bearing in mind that the DNA signatures among many of the Protestants of Northern Ireland are almost evenly divided along the same lines as their Highland and Lowland kindred back in Scotland, one can see that the diversity has gone back centuries earlier than was previously supposed. I chuckle when I think that according to this articles, the English carry a relatively hefty French genetic signature. Apparently, the Normans weren't the first Gallic group to step onto British shores.I can show you the pie chart map to the study (below). Why on earth they make a big deal about the diffs. between N & S Wales, I don't know, because they are obviously very close. And if people are going to go on about the Welsh having Iberian links then they should also mention the even greater links with Scandinavia :)

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/PotBI%202015%20Britain%20Map%20My%20Version%2065_z psn5lcesor.jpg

But I wonder how many pure Welsh people are left these days. Their entire population is only 3 million.

[Jackson]

If you had another test with a different company and then put the data through GEDmatch (esp. K13) then it might well give somewhat different results. From what I've seen I suspect AncestryDNA + GEDmatch gives the most accuracy. Not always affordable though, I know.

Well it seems corroborated through multiple sources so i'll assume it's real for now, i may do AncestryDNA at some point. I have FTDNA results on there as well but as it's transferred from 23&me the differences are negligible.

[Grace O'Malley]

I can show you the pie chart map to the study (below). Why on earth they make a big deal about the diffs. between N & S Wales, I don't know, because they are obviously very close. And if people are going to go on about the Welsh having Iberian links then they should also mention the even greater links with Scandinavia :)

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/PotBI%202015%20Britain%20Map%20My%20Version%2065_z psn5lcesor.jpg

But I wonder how many pure Welsh people are left these days. Their entire population is only 3 million.

They said all the populations were very close and they had to use fine scale technology to tease out the clusters. They are all mostly descended from the same groups to a more or less degree except there are some cluster missing from some groups that I can't remember off the top of my head.

[Petalpusher]

Fascinating map, i never would have guessed there was so much North&Western French. On average it's what roughly 40%. And it seems the relatively small "central component" is only present in Wales and Irish/W.Scot, can't think of an explanation for this, is there any?

[Neon Knight]

Fascinating map, i never would have guessed there was so much North&Western French. On average it's what roughly 40%. And it seems the relatively small "central component" is only present in Wales and Irish/W.Scot, can't think of an explanation for this, is there any?The central French component generally correlates with the Spanish, high NW French and lower NE French so maybe there were three waves of migration from the south, with the final one from NE France not touching Wales at all, mysteriously.

I also think it is surprising how far north the French influence goes - it is even plentiful in Orkney. Surely these early French people must also have been all over the lowlands and Germany at some point?

[Petalpusher]

The central French component generally correlates with the Spanish, high NW French and lower NE French so maybe there were three waves of migration from the south, with the final one from NE France not touching Wales at all, mysteriously.

I also think it is surprising how far north the French influence goes - it is even plentiful in Orkney. Surely these early French people must also have been all over the lowlands and Germany at some point?

I think the most relevant map to put on perspective would be this one

http://s15.postimg.org/67noef7yz/ukm1.jpg

It kinda makes sense overall, Wales remained more intact that Cornwall for example, Saxons seemed to have overrun it and extended far North with the Britons, but there should have been so much back and forth displacement it's hard to comb out all this. Now i would really like to see the same kind of breakdown map that you posted, for other countries like Germany, France, Netherlands,...the more i look at it, the more i eventually realize this part of Europe is really just more of the same, with only slightly different flavoring. The real singularity would be the additionnal scando as you head North in UK, as expected.

[Neon Knight]

I think the most relevant map to put on perspective would be this one

[map]

It kinda makes sense overall, Wales remained more intact that Cornwall for example, Saxons seemed to have overrun it and extended far North with the Britons, but there should have been so much back and forth displacement it's hard to comb out all this. Now i would really like to see the same kind of breakdown map that you posted, for other countries like Germany, France, Netherlands,...the more i look at it, the more i eventually realize this part of Europe is really just more of the same, with only slightly different flavoring. The real singularity would be the additionnal scando as you head North in UK, as expected.I agree with your general conclusion. Maybe you haven't seen this, which gives some more clues:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/cb3c74f3-be07-436e-b914-1288030774ad_zpsbu3kb2rk.png

[Petalpusher]

I agree with your general conclusion. Maybe you haven't seen this, which gives some more clues:


I didn't see it, is there some labels for all the components ? I figured the ones from the UK map, according to numbers.

[Neon Knight]

I didn't see it, is there some labels for all the components ? I figured the ones from the UK map, according to numbers.All I know is that a different number means a different type of DNA. But I had a close-up look and found that south Germans have a small influence from Italy/Sicily and Poles have a small amount of German (not the other way around, as people here always suggest). And there is at least one small French connection with Italians.

EDIT: It looked as though there was a French-German connection with one of the purple shades, but as Petalpusher pointed out, it is a Spanish match. The shades are so close I did not notice it was slightly lighter than the German purple. I'm sure about the other matches though.