Cleopatra's Ancestor Tree.

[Cail]

Inspired by this - http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16633&page=6 - latest installation of afrocentric bullshit about black Cleopatra. I've drawn her full (as possible) ancestor tree back to the epoch of Alexander's diadochs. What i couldn't find was the name of Acheus Seleucid's wife (though it is mentioned that she was Greek), and the wives of Mithridates I of Pontus and his son Ariobarzanes. I assumed that their wives were Greek as were they themselves, and thus Mithridates II was also greek. But they could as well be Persian.

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4471/cleot.jpg

Thus Cleopatra's calculated ancestry (calculated to the times of Ptolemies VI and VII, since outbreeding stopped at that time) is 4/16 Greek, 8/16 Macedonian, 1/16 Thessalian and 3/16 Persian.

[Osweo]

Inspired by this - http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16633&page=6 - latest installation of afrocentric bullshit about black Cleopatra. I've drawn her full (as possible) ancestor tree back to the epoch of Alexander's diadochs. What i couldn't find was the name of Acheus Seleucid's wife (though it is mentioned that she was Greek), and the wives of Mithridates I of Pontus and his son Ariobarzanes. I assumed that their wives were Greek as were they themselves, and thus Mithridates II was also greek. But they could as well be Persian.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6566&stc=1&d=1292548248

Thus Cleopatra's calculated ancestry (calculated to the times of Ptolemies VI and VII, since outbreeding stopped at that time) is 4/16 Greek, 8/16 Macedonian, 1/16 Thessalian and 3/16 Persian.

Excellent work. I put it in a diagram (I was bored);

Certain individuals are given their own unique colour here, to show how many times they repeat in the ancestry of the most famous Cleopatra. Ptolemy III, for instance, is shown in light green THIRTY TIMES. Ptolemy I's wife, Berenike I, would have appeared SIXTY TIMES, given her second marriage, but has 'slipped off the edge' a bit;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6561&stc=1&d=1292546642


Here's one where I try to show HOW inbred Caesar's Cleopatra was;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6565&stc=1&d=1292546642
:eek:


Here's an ethnic breakdown. Macedonians in middle blue, Thessaly Greeks in turquoise, other Greeks in yellow, Persians in red, and all the mixes in a suitable colour in between;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6562&stc=1&d=1292546642


Organising that a little, we get this;
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6564&stc=1&d=1292546642

Curious, eh? :D

[lei.talk]

with which genealogy program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy_software) were these images produced?

[Osweo]

with which genealogy program were these images produced?

:rotfl:

Microsoft Paint, that you get 'free' with most computers. :thumb001::p

[Turkophagos]

Since when Macedonian and Thessalian (WTF?) is not Greek?

[Osweo]

Here's an ethnic breakdown. Macedonians in middle blue, Thessaly Greeks in turquoise, other Greeks in yellow, Persians in red, and all the mixes in a suitable colour in between;

:rolleyes:

[Turkophagos]

:rolleyes:

I made that post after reading Cail's one. It didn't make any sense the way it was written, I can't imagine anyone describing his ancestry, for example, as 50% Bavarian, 25% Prussian and 25% German.

Southern Greeks or City States would have bern more accurate.

[Osweo]

Don't be over-sensitive, it's just a ready shorthand for Greeks of indeterminate or various origins.

[Turkophagos]

I'm just making sure an albo or a skupi won't jump in the thread claiming macedonians, epirotans or thessalians weren't greeks. ;)

[Lithium]

Macedonian :O Does such thing ever existed?

[lei.talk]

Originally Posted by lei.talk http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/jagohan/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=314926#post314926)
with which genealogy program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy_software) were these images produced?

Originally Posted by Oswiu http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/jagohan/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=314932#post314932)
:rotfl: Microsoft Paint, that you get 'free' with most computers. :thumb001: :p
those circular charts
with so many radiants and coloured blocks
were done by hand with paint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint_(software)) ? :eek:

i must go back
and be sure you received reputation-points
for all that effort!

[Osweo]

those circular charts
with so many radiants and coloured blocks
were done by hand with paint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint_(software)) ? :eek:

i must go back
and be sure you received reputation-points
for all that effort!

:D:thumb001:

It's not THAT hard. Once you've done one eighth of it, you can click ctrl+R and you can reflect and rotate it to fill the whole 360.

I'm sure it could be done in about ten seconds if you had the right software and knew how to use it, so in effect, you're praising my cheapness and lack of intelligence required to find an efficient way of avoiding unnecessary labour. :rotfl:

Actually, I'd already done most of it, for a little chart to look at my own pedigree;
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/904/famgram.png
- just had to add a few more lines. It's a mixture of by eye, and by a glance at the 'coordinates' that you can view in the program in question.

[Sforza]

Aegypt at that time was one of the last Macedonian (Greek) Vestiges. The Royal line was Macedonian/Greek and it was pretty much known at the time. Cleopatra herself looked very Greek herself (albeit not that good-looking), I don't think there was ever any doubt about this about from recent attempts to historical revitionism.

Just because Aegypt was/is part of the African Continent does not mean that it had common History with it. It had far more relations with the Middle East and occassionaly Europe than most of the rest of Africa...

[Korbis]

No way dawg!


She was a Black sista of da hood! take it or leave it u damn white crackers !

[Chaldron]

Hi Cail, I saw your Cleopatra family tree. If you could provide sources for the ancestry I would appreciate it as I would like to update a Wikipedia article with it. Thanks

[Cail]

Hi Cail, I saw your Cleopatra family tree. If you could provide sources for the ancestry I would appreciate it as I would like to update a Wikipedia article with it. Thanks

Vast majority of the sources comes from Wiki itself already, i had to look up the exact relations between Berenice I and her spouses/children in a Egyptology book on the campus library (not available now, i've moved to Italy since then), but i think it can be found on the net with some effort.


I'm just making sure an albo or a skupi won't jump in the thread claiming macedonians, epirotans or thessalians weren't greeks.

About the macedonians i would indeed argue very strongly that they were not greek. Their language was not greek, it was a closely related sister-language (exhibiting most similarities with the Dorian dialect). Also there are multiple evidence that they were not considered completely Greek by ancient Greeks themselves (though not unrelated).

[Osweo]

About the macedonians i would indeed argue very strongly that they were not greek. Their language was not greek, it was a closely related sister-language (exhibiting most similarities with the Dorian dialect). Also there are multiple evidence that they were not considered completely Greek by ancient Greeks themselves (though not unrelated).

I know you to be a voice worth listening to on linguistic matters, Cail, so I would ask if you would care to give a (necessarily crude) analogy for the relationship between the Macedonian and Greek languages, indicating their closeness in more familiar terms.

I.e. if Doric and Aeolian are Polish and Czech, would Ancient Macedonian be like Bulgarian? Or would English, Frisian and Hochdeutsch be better?

[Turkophagos]

About the macedonians i would indeed argue very strongly that they were not greek. Their language was not greek, it was a closely related sister-language (exhibiting most similarities with the Dorian dialect). Also there are multiple evidence that they were not considered completely Greek by ancient Greeks themselves (though not unrelated).

Pella curse tablet

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Pellatab.jpg


The Pella curse tablet is a text written in a distinct Doric Greek idiom, found in Pella, the ancient capital of Macedon, in 1986.[1] Ιt contains a curse or magic spell (Greek: κατάδεσμος, katadesmos) inscribed on a lead scroll, dating to first half of the 4th century BC (c. 375-350 BC). It was published in the Hellenic Dialectology Journal in 1993. It is one of four texts[2] found until today that might represent a local dialectal form of ancient Greek in Macedonia, all of them identifiable as Doric. These confirm that a Doric Greek dialect was spoken in Macedonia, as was previously expected from the West Greek forms of names found in Macedonia. As a result, the Pella curse tablet has been forwarded as an argument that the Ancient Macedonian language was a dialect of North-Western Greek, part of the Doric dialects.



The discovery of the Pella curse tablet, according to Olivier Masson, substantiates the view that the ancient Macedonian language was a form of North-West Greek:

"Yet in contrast with earlier views which made of it {i.e. Macedonian} an Aeolic dialect (O. Hoffmann compared Thessalian) we must by now think of a link with North-West Greek (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote). This view is supported by the recent discovery at Pella of a curse tablet (4th cent. BC), which may well be the first 'Macedonian' text attested (provisional publication by E. Voutyras; cf. the Bulletin Epigraphique in Rev. Et. Grec. 1994, no. 413); the text includes an adverb "opoka" which is not Thessalian."

Of the same opinion is James L. O'Neil's (University of Sydney) presentation at the 2005 Conference of the Australasian Society for Classical Studies, entitled "Doric Forms in Macedonian Inscriptions" (abstract):

"A fourth‐century BC curse tablet from Pella shows word forms which are clearly Doric, but a different form of Doric from any of the west Greek dialects of areas adjoining Macedon. Three other, very brief, fourth century inscriptions are also indubitably Doric. These show that a Doric dialect was spoken in Macedon, as we would expect from the West Greek forms of Greek names found in Macedon. And yet later Macedonian inscriptions are in Koine avoiding both Doric forms and the Macedonian voicing of consonants. The native Macedonian dialect had become unsuitable for written documents."

[Turkophagos]

...for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedonians, in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians.


Herodotus




Not only Macedonians were Dorians, but they were the original ones who invaded southern Greece and the ancestors of Spartans.

[Cail]

I know you to be a voice worth listening to on linguistic matters, Cail, so I would ask if you would care to give a (necessarily crude) analogy for the relationship between the Macedonian and Greek languages, indicating their closeness in more familiar terms.

I.e. if Doric and Aeolian are Polish and Czech, would Ancient Macedonian be like Bulgarian? Or would English, Frisian and Hochdeutsch be better?

Greek dialects were closer than Polish and Czech, more like Russian-Ukrainian. Macedonian would've probably be Eastern Slovak in that scenario (if Doric was Ukrainian). Though the comparison is very crude.

[Cail]

Chimo Bayo:

Pella curse tablet is indeed written in Doric, but finding a Doric inscription in a Macedonian city doesn't mean that Macedonian was identical to Doric. There was a very high degree of interaction, trade and culture in the region. There are other evidences of the AML (ancient Macedonian language) that do not comply.

Most differences between Greek dialects were phonetical, vowel shifts and such. AML uncharacteristically had several distinct developments (like, f.e. loss of I.E. aspirates etc), and also, importantly, lacked a number of innovations common to the dialects of proper Greek.

All of this doesn't imply the languages were not very close (they were), and probably the outsiders wouldn't have seen the difference (though Macedonians themselves were quite often named "barbarians" by the Greeks). Placing AML in a different branch of Hellenic is purely based on a sort of consensus in modern linguistic science - the question whether two idioms are dialects or languages is not simple at all. Why is the language of Rheinlanders considered the same as the one of the Swabians, but not the one of the Franconians, to which it's about just as related? Political/Cultural/Historical reasons. If AML was same language as Lesbian or Cypriot, then why are Danish and Norwegian not the same? They differ less.

[Chaldron]

This is the best source on Cleopatra's family tree I have found on the net. If everyone could provide a compilation of sources that would be great as I would like to update a wikipedia article on it and certain people who have taken over wikipedia won't allow me to use the second-hand research on this thread as a source.