Who is greater French, Iberians or Germans

[Mortimer]

I didnt know how to put this question so i asked who is greater which may sound dumb but ill explain i mean who invented more things, who did more important things in humanity who had the higher civilisation who has the better food the prettier girls etc. You know what i mean. Ill leave out the English as they probably are ahead in inventing most things and had the biggest empire, i use three empires and nations which rank close second are in western europe

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Germans have the prettiest girls and I think French had most inventions (after Britain).

[Mortimer]

Germans have the prettiest girls and I think French had most inventions (after Britain).

then your choice is between germany and french, consider all the pros and cons and make up your mind and vote for french or for germans

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

then your choice is between germany and french, consider all the pros and cons and make up your mind and vote for french or for germans

France also had the French empire. I might vote French.

[Ctwentysevenj]

I picked the Germans, but the French and Germans are equal. With the Italians a close second.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I pick the French

[Journeyman26]

The French. Even if you include the English the French still had a greater impact on the birth of modern civilization. Modern democracy, the modern republic, modern military structure, countless philosophers/artists/musicians.

[Kastrioti1443]

The question would be asked in the format of ' who was greater!' Anyway the answer is without question germans. Germans have greater accomplishments than both the other options combined. Germans have far more points and achievements than frenhc in terms of theoretical and applied science, engineering, military glory, pioneers in military structures , strategy and discipline, unmatched in philosophy and classical music. French might be equal to germans in literature and ahead in arts. I can even talk about the moral sides of this but i will leave it outside of the debate. French might have had an '' empire'' in africa but they were almost always crushed by germans and prussians in open field in europe. also, it is not true that brits were so great, germans have invented far more and achieved more and the british empire wasn't so great as it was based on waste land with backward people fighting with woods. we might also add that a lot of british scientists and leaders who 'increased the glory' are of doubtful orign as freemasons had their headquarters in london for centuries and the british empire might be their economical achievement also, not many people are aware of this. Basically the same people that hold power today in london and created the very same structures of the 'empire' , the same elite that has been creating the moral, racial, social, economical and human mess today in england.

[Ouistreham]

Britain (including their American extension), France and Germany shaped the modern world.
Almost 99% of it.
But given that modern life is rubbish, there's no much to brag about.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/15/Blur_-_Modern_Life_is_Rubbish.jpg

[Rose]

No nation is greater than others . We are all human beings

[Cristiano viejo]

Iberians changed the world, literally. :victory0:
Then French.
Then Germans.

[Dylan]

No nation is greater than others . We are all human beings

Just because we are all human beings doesn't mean every society is equally good at everything. each society has its pros and cons as a result of culture, institutions, etc.
That's a nice idealistic way of looking at it, but i think we can all agree with regard to specific areas, certain nations are better at certain clearly defined things. e.g. Norway is less corrupt than Greece (Not picking on Greece). But the question was phrased pretty terribly, which is why he elaborated on it a little more

[Carignan]

France. From Clovis to Louis XVI, Europe was under the influence of the Kingdom of France. One could say I'm a little bit biaised though.

[Damião de Góis]

Iberia is a country now?

[Dylan]

Iberians changed the world, literally. :victory0:
Then French.
Then Germans.

iberians lol

[Dylan]

Iberia is a country now?

Of course it is, didnt you know? you should be ashamed of yourself! you live there!

[Dylan]

I think its funny how the only 2 people who voted for iberia are iberians...
c h a u v i n i s m

[Thunder_shock]

History wise and influence on western civilization/culture its the French. The Germans are great at building shit though especially in electronic/technology field. Apart from the Japs none can match them in that area.

[Shah-Jehan]

Deutscher.

[Cristiano viejo]

iberians lol
We spread our culture, language, religion and semen around the planet, unlike your. Overcome.
Yes, Iberians.


Of course it is, didnt you know? you should be ashamed of yourself! you live there!
Do you talk about shame, living in another country than the own? :rolleyes:


I think its funny how the only 2 people who voted for iberia are iberians...
c h a u v i n i s m
Said the half gabacho :laugh:

[Empecinado]

When comes to military science and territorial and cultural expansion, Spain by far.

[EL_BARBARO]

Iberian countries (Portugal and Spain) made know the world to the rest of the known world, spreading the western civilization, creating new trade routes, nearing people of the whole world, etc. etc.

Until the facts of the iberian countries the world was small. After their facts the world is as known as nowadays.

What both countries have made on their own in and for History of Mankind, no other countries have before made ever and till now never surpassed, at least by French, German and British, till perhaps the beginning of the space race, supported by several countries nowadays.

I voted for Iberian countries. Chauvinism, said someone? Please go first to school after stating nonsenses.

[Insuperable]

Germans followed by French.

[Taiga Lake]

Out of those three i'm gonna go with France, best language, best looking women, best culture, best everything, though i do like the look of German towns.

[Insuperable]

Deleted.

[Prism]

Germans definitely.
I am no nationalist ( well maybe I am ), but they helped us ( Croatians + Bosniaks and Albanians ) in ww2.
Germany also helped by getting Croatia into the EU and making Kosovo independent.

[Jehan]

When comes to military science and territorial and cultural expansion, Spain by far.

By far? Nobody said spain, so you probably overestimate the spanish influence.

Here are some number i found:

Spanish empire 60 000 000 population in 1790. 27 000 000 km2
French empire 110 631 000 population in 1936. 21 500 000 km2

In military science except the "tercio", i'm not sure spanish invent a lot of stuff and were at the top in this field.

[Suleiman Arian]

Germans in terms of innovation. French in terms of attraction.

[Ryujin]

Vivé la France.

Long Live the Jacobins.

[Empecinado]

By far? Nobody said spain, so you probably overestimate the spanish influence.

Here are some number i found:

Spanish empire 60 000 000 population in 1790. 27 000 000 km2
French empire 110 631 000 population in 1936. 21 500 000 km2

In military science except the "tercio", i'm not sure spanish invent a lot of stuff and were at the top in this field.


If anything, Spanish influence is underrated because the leyenda negra and also because we are bad when comes to propaganda.

-First Marine forces (Infantería de Marina): Spain
-First modern navy: Spain
-First professional army (Tercios): Spain
-First regular army to incorporate guerrilla tactics: Spain
-First modern battle (Cerignola): Spain
-Invention of frigate ship: Spain
-First corps of military engineers: Spain
-First military hospital: Spain
-Invention of trench warfare: Spain
-Invention of total war concept: Spain

Many of them creations of Gonzalo Fernández de Córdova. He was the founder of modern warfare.

[EL_BARBARO]

By far? Nobody said spain, so you probably overestimate the spanish influence.

Here are some number i found: (***mais pas analisés, c'est clair!!)

Spanish empire 60 000 000 population in 1790. 27 000 000 km2
French empire 110 631 000 population in 1936. 21 500 000 km2

In military science except the "tercio", i'm not sure spanish invent a lot of stuff and were at the top in this field.

Toi tu devrais aussi aller à l'école... une autre fois.

Comment vas-tu comparer les populations de chaque empire d'un siècle à l'autre? Alors la population de le "empire français" était plus grande dans le siècle XX en comparaison avec celui de l'espagnol dans le siècle XVIII? (!!??)

Comment est-ce que tu compares le "empire français" qui réellement dura guère 70 ans (au moins le deuxième empire, le plus grand) avec la durée de plus de 400 annés continuées de l'empire espagnol?

Dis-moi, quelle age as-tu, mon petit, quoi??

[Armand_Duval]

UFrom wikipedia:


hrough exploration and conquest or royal marriage alliances and inheritance, the Spanish Empire expanded to include vast areas in the Americas, islands in the Asia-Pacific area, areas of Italy, cities in Northern Africa, as well as parts of what are now France, Germany, Belgium, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands. The first circumnavigation of the world was carried out in 1519-1521. It was the first empire on which it was said that the sun never set. This was an Age of Discovery, with daring explorations by sea and by land, the opening-up of new trade routes across oceans, conquests and the beginnings of European colonialism. Spanish explorers brought back precious metals, spices, luxuries, and previously unknown plants, and played a leading part in transforming the European understanding of the globe.[35] The cultural efflorescence witnessed during this period is now referred to as the Spanish Golden Age.


If we take into accout what UNESCO considers the top coutries with the most important world's Heritage then it has to be Italy, Second Spain third France and then it comes germany.

Many ppl here need to pull out those germanic dicks from your mouths.

[Adalrich]

These bait threads are pointless, it's just a dick measuring contest all the time. Why can't we just appreciate each of the European nations achievements and stop this early 20th century bitterness, we saw how far that went...

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Iberians changed the world, literally. :victory0:
Then French.
Then Germans.

lol how?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Germans in terms of innovation. French in terms of attraction.

No it's the other way around.

[EL_BARBARO]

Another one carrying the weight of his own ignorance...

[Dylan]

We spread our culture, language, religion and semen around the planet, unlike your. Overcome.
Yes, Iberians.


Do you talk about shame, living in another country than the own? :rolleyes:


Said the half gabacho :laugh:

ahahaha you act like I hold any allegiance to france. no way, I don't even support them in the World Cup. France spread their culture and language around the planet. their culture was spread their culture around europe too, influencing countries like Spain or Portugal. I have no shame living in the US and that was sarcasm anyway. I feel 0 affiliation to France, Germany, Iberia etc. But the only two votes for Iberia were by Iberians, I don't even need to argue my point. It's just chauvinism.

[Armand_Duval]

Another one carrying the weight of his own ignorance...

Looks like these ppl dont go to school and if they go they are only taught about how cool Hitler was...hehehehehe

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

lol @ only people voting Iberian are Iberians :D

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

and only thumbs up Iberians ever get is from other Iberians....

[Jehan]

If anything, Spanish influence is underrated because the leyenda negra and also because we are bad when comes to propaganda.

-First Marine forces (Infantería de Marina): Spain
-First modern navy: Spain
-First professional army (Tercios): Spain
-First regular army to incorporate guerrilla tactics: Spain
-First modern battle (Cerignola): Spain
-Invention of frigate ship: Spain
-First corps of military engineers: Spain
-First military hospital: Spain
-Invention of trench warfare: Spain
-Invention of total war concept: Spain

Many of them creations of Gonzalo Fernández de Córdova. He was the founder of modern warfare.

What is modern navy for you? The first ironclad was french http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ironclad_Gloire.

First professional army? The ancien Rome empire have already a standing army compose of full time soldiers.

First regular army who incorporate guerrilla tactic. I assume you make reference to the napoleonic war. Vendéan counter revolution and american already use it before. We can consider them as regular force to.

What are the criteres of a modern battle and which battle you make reference?

Ok spain invent frigate ship. What about all the other types of ships, plane, tanks, submarine?

Trenh warfare. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_warfare
The Grand Alliance was a European coalition, consisting (at various times) of Austria, Bavaria, Brandenburg, the Dutch Republic, England, the Holy Roman Empire, Ireland, the Palatinate of the Rhine, Portugal, Savoy, Saxony, Scotland, Spain and Sweden.


Dificult to check most of the infomation you gave. There isn't any date or reference.

[Armand_Duval]

lol how?


How?.....:picard1:


I knew the public education system in the USA was having trouble, only I didn't know it was that much.

http://www.donquijote.org/culture/spain/history/spanish-golden-age



Spain's El Siglo de Oro or Golden Age is a title given to a range of dates from 1492-1659. Essentially, during this time, Spain proved herself on the world stage by showcasing great contributors to the humanities. Household names like Columbus, Vasquez and Cervantes were just a few who helped Spain achieve its golden status. Discovering and settling parts of the New World, contributing to art, music and literature are the marks that stand today left by these masters.

The completion of the reconquista and Columbus discovering the New World gave rise to the Golden Age. With Columbus's success reaching land, Spain now had the opportunity to assert their colonizing ability. A groundbreaking piece of literature by Antonio de Nebrija called Gramatica de la lengua castellan (Grammar of the Castilian Tongue) was also released around the time the Golden Age is considered to have begun.

[Dylan]

In regard to
-inventions
maybe germany, but probably france
-girls
so incredibly subjective, not worth answering. but i'd say germany or france.
-food
france
-high culture
obviously france
-influence
France, then Iberia, then Germany. Although Iberia could be argued as number 1 for this as well. France influenced all the regimes of Europe due to its high culture from Portugal to even Russia. Iberians however were better colonizers. But then again, the French Revolution basically changed everything in modern western society.

When it comes down to it, historically speaking, France. But nowadays, for most things, probably Germany. Iberia didn't used to be so far down, they were actually pretty good, but comparing modern iberia to modern france or germany is a joke under these terms.

[Jehan]

If we take into accout what UNESCO considers the top coutries with the most important world's Heritage then it has to be Italy, Second Spain third France and then it comes germany.

Many ppl here need to pull out those germanic dicks from your mouths.

True
but the comparaison isn't limit to the Unesco heritage as it didn't take in consideration a lot of aspect.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

How?.....:picard1:


I knew the public education system in the USA was having trouble, only I didn't know it was that much.

http://www.donquijote.org/culture/spain/history/spanish-golden-age

says the mexican...lol

[Dylan]

lol @ only people voting Iberian are Iberians :D

Iberians are always so defensive over their people etc. its funny. inferiority complex

[EL_BARBARO]

Un quasi québequois c'est pas un chauviniste s'il parle en pro de la France, car il est en vivant à l'ÉU, et il se tient lui même par un juge totallement imparciel, en dennonçant les autres comme chauvinistes!!

Quelle moquerie!

Allez à l'école, "americain"!!

[EL_BARBARO]

says the mexican...lol

Do you think perhaps you're better than the mexican, métise?

[Balmung]

I think all had a hand but if we're talking raw output.

Britain > French/Germans > Italians > Iberians. Its how you look at it though. Personally I think Italians/Greeks no doubt had the stronger cultural impact on Europe while Britain/France etc had more technological/industrial impact. Even then its not clear because you could also say the British had the strongest cultural impact given their extensive influence on all modern literature, agriculture, sports, music etc.

If we're talking which groups were more successful at cultural expansion, it'd read quite differently. Spain would take France/Germany's place.

[Dylan]

Un quasi québequois c'est pas un chauviniste s'il parle en pro de la France, car il est en vivant à l'ÉU, et il se tient lui même par un juge totallement imparciel, en dennonçant les autres comme chauvinistes!!

Quelle moquerie!

Allez à l'école, "americain"!!

Chauvinism? its only chauvinism if they are my people. France is not my people. I don't give a shit about France, Iberia, or Germany. Chauvinism is excessive pride for one's group. Not my group bud, and if anything, I'm the opposite of being "excessively supportive of them". Try again.

[EL_BARBARO]

Iberians are always so defensive over their people etc. its funny. inferiority complex


No. What is really funny is the lack of culture people like you are suffering from. Oversuperiority complex, maybe, "américain"?

[Armand_Duval]

says the mexican...lol


A Mexican with more school than you, so where does that leave you?...

[Jehan]

Toi tu devrais aussi aller à l'école... une autre fois.

Comment vas-tu comparer les populations de chaque empire d'un siècle à l'autre? Alors la population de le "empire français" était plus grande dans le siècle XX en comparaison avec celui de l'espagnol dans le siècle XVIII? (!!??)

Comment est-ce que tu compares le "empire français" qui réellement dura guère 70 ans (au moins le deuxième empire, le plus grand) avec la durée de plus de 400 annés continuées de l'empire espagnol?

Dis-moi, quelle age as-tu, mon petit, quoi??


Another one carrying the weight of his own ignorance...


Un quasi québequois c'est pas un chauviniste s'il parle en pro de la France, car il est en vivant à l'ÉU, et il se tient lui même par un juge totallement imparciel, en dennonçant les autres comme chauvinistes!!

Quelle moquerie!

Allez à l'école, "americain"!!


If you trully want to defend your point give arguments, datas, facts.... Blame the "ignorance" or the stupidity of people who disagree isn't enought.
You contribution to the thread is ridiculous, and nobody will give any credit to your opinion.

[Dylan]

No. What is really funny is the lack of culture people like you are suffering from. Oversuperiority complex, maybe, "américain"?

I have no pride in being American. Same applies here, I don't give a shit about my nationality. I don't take credit for the triumphs of my ethnicity or nationality. No Superiority complex here. Want to elaborate on my lack of culture? or are you one of those people who don't need evidence to believe things?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

A Mexican with more school than you, so where does that leave you?...

You don't have 'more school' than me.

[EL_BARBARO]

and only thumbs up Iberians ever get is from other Iberians....


At least we Iberians know who we are. Not people like you, with a mix of God will know what...

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

At least we Iberians know who we are. Not people like you, with a mix of God will know what...

Um, no. I know what I am. I am American...and many Americans have ancestry from many places of the world, but that doesn't mean we don't know who we are?? lol

[Dylan]

Um, no. I know what I am. I am American...and many Americans have ancestry from many places of the world, but that doesn't mean we don't know who we are?? lol

And here, Maximus and I, reveal our guilty pleasure in conversing with people who can't make coherent evidence-based arguments :D

[Armand_Duval]

You don't have 'more school' than me.

Looks like I do since you aren't aware of very basic historical facts which are taught in elementary school such as the discovery of America that was sponsored by SPAIN and not Germany nor England or else, it was Spain the one who Changed the face of the world with that historical fact.

If it had been the anglos, sure we would have all of you here hyping about that but as it was spain such fact isn't treated with much relevance not even in your schools.

[EL_BARBARO]

I have no pride in being American. Same applies here, I don't give a shit about my nationality. I don't take credit for the triumphs of my ethnicity or nationality. No Superiority complex here. Want to elaborate on my lack of culture? or are you one of those people who don't need evidence to believe things?


I am sure you haven't barely culture, just the culture you could get in your system, just null.

And you're been showing it with all your posts here.

[Dylan]

I am sure you haven't barely culture, just the culture you could get in your system, just null.

And you're been showing it with all your posts here.

And you are one of those people who believes things without evidence! hooray!

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I am sure you haven't barely culture, just the culture you could get in your system, just null.

And you're been showing it with all your posts here.

lol, Americans have a culture moron. So do Australians, Canadians, and all the 'new countries'. You're just ignorant, you've never been here so you don't know that such culture exists :)

[Damião de Góis]

Mixed americans are always at the front row of euro country bashing. It's funny.

[Dylan]

lol, Americans have a culture moron. So do Australians, Canadians, and all the 'new countries'. You're just ignorant, you've never been here so you don't know that such culture exists :)

It's funny because literally every western country and practically any country in the world is so incredibly influenced by american culture that they won't even admit it. Its unfortunate to be honest.

[Dylan]

Mixed americans are always at the front row of euro country bashing. It's funny.

I don't bash Iberia, I explained why I thought they didn't belong on top. They have done many great things. They're way better under these terms than most countries in Europe, let alone the entire world. But to compare them to France and Germany in this scenario isn't going to make them look very good.

And who gives a shit whether someone is mixed or not. I thought discrediting someone based on nationality/ethnic purity died in 1945? no?

[EL_BARBARO]

If you trully want to defend your point give arguments, datas, facts.... Blame the "ignorance" or the stupidity of people who disagree isn't enought.
You contribution to the thread is ridiculous, and nobody will give any credit to your opinion.


I've already done . But not you. I won't give you references nor arguments, just move your own ass and do it yourself.

I critisize your arguments cause they are not really arguments: comparing populations between both empires in different centuries? Hidding the duration of both empires?

I'm not here to educate you. I denonce you've got a heavy lack of knowlege. Try to acquire it, quoi.

Et appelez pas les autres pour te defendre, ok?

[Armand_Duval]

lol, Americans have a culture moron. So do Australians, Canadians, and all the 'new countries'. You're just ignorant, you've never been here so you don't know that such culture exists :)

Americans have culture that isn't under discussion, what is clear here is that it is you the one who appears as an ignorant chauvinist jack ass who points at says the "mexican" and when is given back the same coin gets annoyed....

[EL_BARBARO]

lol, Americans have a culture moron. So do Australians, Canadians, and all the 'new countries'. You're just ignorant, you've never been here so you don't know that such culture exists :)

Don't be impolite and stop insulting! I didn't!

We know here very well the great lack of knowledge wich is given in american schools, please...

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Americans have culture that isn't under discussion, what is clear here is that it is you the one who apoears as an ignorant chauvinist jack ass who points at says the "mexican" and when is given back the same coin gets annoyed....

lol, you were bashing the U.S. before I said that, it was to give you a taste of your own medicine. I have little pride in my country and my ancestors, I am no chauvinist lol

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Don't be impolite and stop insulting! I didn't!

We know here very well the great lack of knowledge wich is given in american schools, please...

So all Americans are dumb then, right? LOL you just think because we have fucked up education system that we're all morons. That's not true though, that's not how it works. We have some smart American people. Stereotypes are not always true.

[Armand_Duval]

Don't be impolite and stop insulting! I didn't!

We know here very well the great lack of knowledge wich is given in american schools, please...

And tell him that mexicans have culture too....:rolleyes:

I wonder how old he is? 14?...

[Dylan]

Don't be impolite and stop insulting! I didn't!

We know here very well the great lack of knowledge wich is given in american schools, please...

bahahahaha generalizing the entire American school system. My school has a lot of rich foreigners, including ones from Spain who went through tons of trouble just to get this education. Alabama education? a complete joke. Texas education, also a complete joke! Massachusetts or Connecticut public school? private school? top class. Private schools? Even better. You have no idea what you're talking about. Which is fine, theres no reason why you should know anything about this topic. But then again, shouldn't that restrict you from sharing your ignorance? The education standards vary so heavily in each state, that one cannot make any generalizing point regarding them and say anything of any value.

[Empecinado]

What is modern navy for you? The first ironclad was french http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ironclad_Gloire.

A permanent fleet with a stable organization. It was also the first to create rules and regulations for each warship that gave unity to the operation of the fleet, created the concept of naval convoy (flota de Indias), was the first to circumnavigate the globe, created the first global trade route (Cadiz-Manila), the first to use Marine infantry...for all of these it can be considered the first modern navy.


First professional army? The ancien Rome empire have already a standing army compose of full time soldiers.

We are talking about modern proffesional army, with modern organization, tactics and so on. Tercios made outdated the Classic concept of war and tactics, also was the first army to use massively small fireguns.


First regular army who incorporate guerrilla tactic. I assume you make reference to the napoleonic war. Vendéan counter revolution and american already use it before. We can consider them as regular force to.

No, I make reference to the use by the Tercios already in the 16th century. Was firstly used by Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordova in Italy against French and by the Duke of Alba in the Rousellon against French again and later against Protestants. Tercios were specialized on dissolve themselves and make guerrilla war against their enemies.

In fact the word Guerrilla is Spanish and means "small war".



What are the criteres of a modern battle and which battle you make reference?

It was the first battle won by gunpowder small arms using modern tactics: the trench. He ordered digging trenches protected by cut vineyards and place gunmen to stop the charging French cavalry shooting at them. With this the old war ended and the modern one started.




Ok spain invent frigate ship. What about all the other types of ships, plane, tanks, submarine?

Invented the galleon too, and the first submarine with military capacity (the Peral). The articulated rotor, used by helicopters, was invented by the Spanish engineer Juan de la Cierva. Anyway, I don't deny that others have invented more stuff than we have.




Dificult to check most of the infomation you gave. There isn't any date or reference.

Some can be check by googling up, other either are in Spanish or I have read in books with no presence in internet.

[finþaų]

ITT: Here we fling shit at other nations for make benefit glorious nation of... which one is mine now again? Oh yeah, that one.

[Armand_Duval]

lol, you were bashing the U.S. before I said that, it was to give you a taste of your own medicine. I have little pride in my country and my ancestors, I am no chauvinist lol


Me bashing USA?, that's false, I have never bashed the USA, I only discredit morons without mattering what country they are from.

[Jehan]

I've already done . But not you. I won't give you references nor arguments, just move your own ass and do it yourself.

I critisize your arguments cause they are not really arguments: comparing populations between both empires in different centuries? Hidding the duration of both empires?

I'm not here to educate you. I denonce you've got a heavy lack of knowlege. Try to acquire it, quoi.

Et appelez pas les autres pour te defendre, ok?



If you don't want to give any arguments or reference. There aren't any reasons that i waste my time in research.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

And tell him that mexicans have culture too....:rolleyes:

I wonder how old he is? 14?...

lol mexico is as old of a nation as the usa...how can they have a culture and we cannot? Your logic is terrible! :P

[Armand_Duval]

bahahahaha generalizing the entire American school system. My school has a lot of rich foreigners, including ones from Spain who went through tons of trouble just to get this education. Alabama education? a complete joke. Texas education, also a complete joke! Massachusetts or Connecticut public school? private school? top class. Private schools? Even better. You have no idea what you're talking about. Which is fine, theres no reason why you should know anything about this topic. But then again, shouldn't that restrict you from sharing your ignorance? The education standards vary so heavily in each state, that one cannot make any generalizing point regarding them and say anything of any value.

So then how is you happen to ignore basic historical facts as Spain discovering America and opening new commerce routes and thus chsnging the face of the world? Me no comprende....

[EL_BARBARO]

So all Americans are dumb then, right? LOL you just think because we have fucked up education system that we're all morons. That's not true though, that's not how it works. We have some smart American people. Stereotypes are not always true.


That you're all morons are really your words, not mine.

I said what I said. About Universal History USan students of schools and high schools lack of a properly knowledge. That's proved since years.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

That you're all morons are really your words, not mine.

I said what I said. About Universal History USan students of schools and high schools lack of a properly knowledge. That's proved since years.

Then you are inferring all Americans are dumb, because I am an American you bring this up.

[Dylan]

So then how is you happen to ignore basic historical facts as Spain discovering America and opening new commerce routes and thus chsnging the face of the world? Me no comprende....

I didn't ignore it. I already expressed the sentiment that they were the best colonizers.

[Empecinado]

You all: keep civil the discussion.

/mod

[EL_BARBARO]

Edited.

[Dylan]

That you're all morons are really your words, not mine.

I said what I said. About Universal History USan students of schools and high schools lack of a properly knowledge. That's proved since years.

American students in impovershed areas that don't have good funding for their public educations or enough money to pay for a private education. it's true and its sad. But that's definitely not representative of the entire country. Mostly only poor urban areas and in the deep south.

The state where I come from for example has one of the top educations in the world. Although it does lag behind South Korea and Singapore I believe

[Armand_Duval]

lol mexico is as old of a nation as the usa...how can they have a culture and we cannot? Your logic is terrible! :P

Another epic fail from you....Mexican history is millenary. I bet you didnt know that the Mayas, the Olmecs and the Teotihuacans are placed at the same cultural levels of other great civilizations such as Egypt?.

Those mesoamerican cultures are considered mother cultures that developed and succeded in art, architecture, astronomy and math in their own right?.

Dude, are you sure you didn't fall asleep during your history lessons at high?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

My nationality is completely irrelevant. If you disagree with something I say, why should it be because I am an American? You don't win debates by calling the other person stereotypes :) and it makes you look stupid in the end, because people who truly believe in stereotypes are people who have not seen the world. You haven't been to my country so you've never seen an American who wasn't fat or dumb :p

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Another epic fail from you....Mexican history is millenary. I bet you didnt know that the Mayas, the Olmecs and the Teotihuacans are placed at the same cultural levels of other great civilizations such as Egypt?.

Those mesoamerican cultures are considered mother cultures that developed and succeded in art, architecture, astronomy and math in their own right?.

Dude, are you sure you didn't fall asleep during your history lessons at high?

the history of what is today the U.S. is also millenary, moron.

[EL_BARBARO]

bahahahaha generalizing the entire American school system. My school has a lot of rich foreigners, including ones from Spain who went through tons of trouble just to get this education. Alabama education? a complete joke. Texas education, also a complete joke! Massachusetts or Connecticut public school? private school? top class. Private schools? Even better. You have no idea what you're talking about. Which is fine, theres no reason why you should know anything about this topic. But then again, shouldn't that restrict you from sharing your ignorance? The education standards vary so heavily in each state, that one cannot make any generalizing point regarding them and say anything of any value.


Oh, please, just you do not talk to me about ingnorance. You've already shown it enough, calling Iberians "chauvinists".

[Dylan]

Oh, please, just you do not talk to me about ingnorance. You've already shown it enough.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmarshallcrotty/2014/09/29/if-massachusetts-were-a-country-its-students-would-rank-9th-in-the-world/

Have a look my friend...be a man, admit your ignorance. There's no shame in not knowing the ins and outs of a foreign country's educational diversity. The state I grew up in by the way, only european country ahead of it finland. It would be tied for the 4th best education in the world if it were a country.

[Balmung]

Britain (including their American extension), France and Germany shaped the modern world.
Almost 99% of it.
But given that modern life is rubbish, there's no much to brag about.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/15/Blur_-_Modern_Life_is_Rubbish.jpg

I don't think you would have enjoyed living in pre-industrial revolution Europe. In England alone over 80% of a person's income was spent on food and they struggled just to meet the basic needs of their families. Most people were illiterate, and healthcare? forget about it not to mention the millions who died from plagues, war and poverty its estimated that 25% of newborn children died and another 25% before their tenth birthday. It's not a perfect system we have today but it most certainly improved the lives of the majority. People complain that our numbers are small in comparison to the growing Asian/African number? I assure you our populations would be dwindling even more if not for it. I'd say the the biggest downside to the IR is the fact that it made us weaker. A small price to pay for everything else it improved for us.

[Dylan]

Oh, please, just you do not talk to me about ingnorance. You've already shown it enough, calling Iberians "chauvinists".

I called YOU a chauvinist. There's a difference.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

lel iberians getting owned in this debate

[Peter Nirsch]

each one excels in a peculiar, different field.

[Dylan]

lel iberians getting owned in this debate

To be honest, I wouldn't say Iberians. Just these particular Iberians happen to be poorly representing their respective countries. They could make a decent argument regarding Spain's pre-1713 greatness etc. but instead, they mostly prefer to make ad hominem arguments.

[Empecinado]

lel iberians getting owned in this debate

This is not a debate as I don't see anyone giving data or facts and discusing it. All I see is people with preconceptions and ignorance. I have wrote some interesting facts yet I doubt most of you will ever read.

[EL_BARBARO]

Then you are inferring all Americans are dumb, because I am an American you bring this up.


Your own words again. I never said USan are dumb. I don't tend to be impolite.

If you are able to understand a text, you already should have understood what I ment.

[EL_BARBARO]

I called YOU a chauvinist. There's a difference.

And that is just the main proof about your lack of culture and knowledge about.

[Dylan]

This is not a debate as I don't see anyone giving data or facts and discusing it. All I see is people with preconceptions and ignorance. I have wrote some interesting facts yet I doubt most of you will ever read.

I gave the basic facts behind my reasoning as to why Iberia was not as "great" a country under these terms quite a while ago, and since then have only been met with ad hominem arguments. its way back in the thread, but its there. I even expressed that i did think Iberia was exceptionally great on a european/world basis, just not comparable to france or germany.

[Dylan]

Your own words again. I never said USan are dumb. I don't tend to be impolite.

If you are able to understand a text, you already should have understood what I ment.

why do you say USan?

[Damião de Góis]

lel iberians getting owned in this debate


To be honest, I wouldn't say Iberians. Just these particular Iberians happen to be poorly representing their respective countries. They could make a decent argument regarding Spain's pre-1713 greatness etc. but instead, they mostly prefer to make ad hominem arguments.

Again, this is coming from descendents of immigrants? A bit pathetic...

[Dylan]

And that is just the main proof about your lack of culture and knowledge about.

I think you've made a pretty good display of your excessive pride for your iberian identity throughout this whole thread. It's fine to be proud of your identity, Iberia is a great land that has done many great things in comparison to the rest of the world as I have previously stated.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Your own words again. I never said USan are dumb. I don't tend to be impolite.

If you are able to understand a text, you already should have understood what I ment.

No, but you were inferring. Otherwise why did you bring it up anyway?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Again, this is coming from descendents of immigrants? A bit pathetic...

lol what? That's completely irrelevant.

[Dylan]

Again, this is coming from descendents of immigrants? A bit pathetic...

#Ad hominem argument #notconvincing I'm glad my ancestors left their homelands, considering I'm better off than virtually 95% of the people in France, Italy, and Ireland, although this has more to do with family members than the country.

I don't think I've ever had my opinion discredited for a more ridiculous/laughable reason ever in my life. "Descendent of immigrants" looool

[Armand_Duval]

the history of what is today the U.S. is also millenary, moron.

By the time Mexico already had Flourushing complex and sophisticated civilizations, in the fields of harvard Buffalos grazed.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

By the time Mexico already had Flourushing complex and sophisticated civilizations, in the fields of harvard Buffalos grazed.

Still, that's history. U.S.A. did not just come from nowhere.

[Dylan]

By the time Mexico already had Flourushing complex and sophisticated civilizations, in the fields of harvard Buffalos grazed.

Mexico has a great history behind it.

[Armand_Duval]

lel iberians getting owned in this debate

I don't see how.:picard1:

Maybe it is not a problem of public school system to the USA, it might get reduced to a more simple fact: You, yourself are a kid with attention deficit disorder.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I don't see how.:picard1:

Maybe it is not a problem of public school system to the USA, it might get reduced to a more simple fact: You, yourself are a kid with attention deficit disorder.

Please stop with the ad hominem arguments. You're trying to attack me personally while avoiding the actual argument....

[Dylan]

This thread has proven the uselessness of ethnic pride. Several people on this forum, particularly a couple, but not all of the Iberians who have posted here have shown traits that i think most westerners including iberians would be embarrassed to share a common identity with people making arguments such as "you're descended from immigrants". Take credit for your own triumphs. Not other people's who happen to look a bit like you or be from a similar place.

[Damião de Góis]

#Ad hominem argument #notconvincing I'm glad my ancestors left their homelands, considering I'm better off than virtually 95% of the people in France, Italy, and Ireland, although this has more to do with family members than the country.

To each their own.


I don't think I've ever had my opinion discredited for a more ridiculous/laughable reason ever in my life. "Descendent of immigrants" looool

Considering the kind of discussion this is, and your behaviour in it, it's highly ironic that you are the descendent of immigrants from various parts of the globe.

[Dylan]

To each their own.



Considering the kind of discussion this is, and your behaviour in it, it's highly ironic that you are the descendent of immigrants from various parts of the globe.

Wanna elaborate on any of my specific points? Until then that statement is useless.

Ironic that I'm a descendent from various parts of the globe? please explain my friend!

[Jehan]

This is not a debate as I don't see anyone giving data or facts and discusing it. All I see is people with preconceptions and ignorance. I have wrote some interesting facts yet I doubt most of you will ever read.

I read and google each of it. And sometimes it was hard to find a clear and proper information.
Spain had a period of domination.

[EL_BARBARO]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmarshallcrotty/2014/09/29/if-massachusetts-were-a-country-its-students-would-rank-9th-in-the-world/

Have a look my friend...be a man, admit your ignorance. There's no shame in not knowing the ins and outs of a foreign country's educational diversity. The state I grew up in by the way, only european country ahead of it finland. It would be tied for the 4th best education in the world if it were a country.


Oh, sure, my friend, but... "The Caesar's wife, besides being the Caesar's wife, must look like that".

[Dylan]

Oh, sure, my friend, but... "The Caesar's wife, besides being the Caesar's wife, must look like that".

what an incredibly pretentious response. lol. but whatever, as you see, certain parts of the US have education that is absolute shit and certain parts have it very good. blanket statements have no value on this topic.

[Armand_Duval]

Please stop with the ad hominem arguments. You're trying to attack me personally while avoiding the actual argument....

I don't attack you, I only try to take you out of your stubbornness and mindedness slapping you in the head.

Why is that many ppl such as you who happen to be ignorant americans are unable to accept nor give credit to others peoples and cultures achievements, and not only that but even derogate them?.

You "lol-ed" at the assertion of "Spain changed the face of the world" which is historically a fact, however you disrespect it but not only that you also disrespect yourself, because by asking "how" you unveil you as an ignorant creep.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I don't attack you, I only try to take you out of your stubbornness and mindedness slapping you in the head.

Why is that many ppl such as you who happen to be ignorant americans are unable to accept nor give credit to others peoples and cultures achievements, and not only that but even derogate them?.

You "lol-ed" at the assertion of "Spain changed the face of the world" which is historically a fact, however you disrespect it but not only that you also disrespect yourself, because by asking "how" you unveil you as an ignorant creep.

I have given Spain credit for many of the great things it has accomplished. Do not be foolish. I thank the Spanish for their contributions to the world, but they simply do not amount to the contributions the French and the Germans have given to the world.

[Dylan]

I don't attack you, I only try to take you out of your stubbornness and mindedness slapping you in the head.

Why is that many ppl such as you who happen to be ignorant americans are unable to accept nor give credit to others peoples and cultures achievements, and not only that but even derogate them?.

You "lol-ed" at the assertion of "Spain changed the face of the world" which is historically a fact, however you disrespect it but not only that you also disrespect yourself, because by asking "how" you unveil you as an ignorant creep.

bro not all americans do that, I didn't see what Maximus wrote so I can't comment on it, but i'd say most americans I've met (mostly middle and upper class americans in the north east) don't have any trouble respecting the cultures and civilizations of other countries.

You definitely did attack him though bro. "Attacking someone's intelligence, falsely diagnosing them with disorders" would fall under realm of attack as far as an online forum goes.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Also, you definitely attacked me with ad hominem arguments lol

[Armand_Duval]

I have given Spain credit for many of the great things it has accomplished. Do not be foolish. I thank the Spanish for their contributions to the world, but they simply do not amount to the contributions the French and the Germans have given to the world.

French?... yes... Germans?... Well the fact of having caused a war that wiped out the lifes of millions of europeans doesn't leave them in the best of the spots as good contributors to european culture to say the least...

Eventhough there are thousands of ppl her at this site eager to suck a germanic dick....

[EL_BARBARO]

what an incredibly pretentious response. lol. but whatever, as you see, certain parts of the US have education that is absolute shit and certain parts have it very good. blanket statements have no value on this topic.

Just what you're deserving. Sorry if you don't like.

[Armand_Duval]

bro not all americans do that, I didn't see what Maximus wrote so I can't comment on it, but i'd say most americans I've met (mostly middle and upper class americans in the north east) don't have any trouble respecting the cultures and civilizations of other countries.

You definitely did attack him though bro. "Attacking someone's intelligence, falsely diagnosing them with disorders" would fall under realm of attack as far as an online forum goes.


That's why I only talk about the ignoran americans not the other ones, I normally get along well with americans in forums and IRL.

[Dylan]

Just what you're deserving. Sorry if you don't like.

you make ignorant comment. I respond with article/evidence proving the falsity of your comment. --> bro, don't even try and dig yourself out of that hole.

[EL_BARBARO]

you make ignorant comment. I respond with article/evidence proving the falsity of your comment. --> bro, don't even try and dig yourself out of that hole.

Yes, sure, the only article you share with me was that of schools in Massachussetts... Bravo!

What about the topic without calling the others "chauvinists"?

Iberia changed the world since the discoveries age, not only due to the discovery of America itself, but about a lot of things they were told you in this tread. But you and your principal bouffon only showed "lols" and "chauvinist iberians"...

Were you learnt anything about, or only about Mayflower Pilgrims and Am Revolution?

Did you know perhaps, Iberians (eg General Bernardo de Galvez, a Spaniard, and the whole Viceroyalty of the New Spain and Spain itself) made possible that your US became an independent country, for instance? Be honest.

Are you sure you get the correct knowledges about National and Universal History in your education system?

And do you dare call me "chauvinist"?

[Dylan]

Yes, sure, the only article you share with me was that of schools in Massachussetts... Bravo!

What about the topic without calling the others "chauvinists"?

Iberia changed the world since the discoveries age, not only due to the discovery of America itself, but about a lot of things they were told you in this tread. But you and your principal bouffon only showed "lols" and "chauvinist iberians"...

Were you learnt anything about, or only about Mayflower Pilgrims and Am Revolution?


Did you know perhaps, Iberians (eg General Bernardo de Galvez, a Spaniard, and the whole Viceroyalty of the New Spain and Spain itself) made possible that your US became an independent country, for instance? Be honest.


Are you sure you get the correct knowledges about National and Universal History in your education system?

Yes.

And do you dare call me "chauvinist"?

Bro this is what made you respond with the pretentious bs that i supposedly deserved. Hence this was the only post relevant. Nice try.

sigh. I already recognized the discovery of the west by the Spanish Crown in multiple posts. I suppose its a long thread and maybe you didn't see them?

yes, and to be honest I never gave a shit about the mayflower or pilgrims anyway. the revolution is sort of interesting, but nothing compared to most of european history for me.

That General Bernardo did specifically? no. That Spain did? Yes.

I called you a chauvinist because of how defensive you were in regard to my opinion that (paraphrase) In regard to the terms of this thread, Iberia is not anywhere near as high as that of France or Germany, but in comparison to Europe or the World as a whole, it is exceptional". I even praised Iberia and you still responded with the ad hominem crap. It came off pretty damn chauvinistic. And the fact that the only people to vote for iberia in this thread is highly suggestive of chauvinism.


If you want to argue with the post where I summed up my views as opposed to wasting your time, take a little look back. I don't remember what page its on, but it has 6 upvotes and I clearly identified what I thought. I later expressed my admiration for Spain as a country in comparison to Europe and the rest of the World to another guy who misconstrued what I said.

Any arguments against those statements I made through the use of evidence, as you did above (unfortunuately using arguments I had already addressed). Feel Free, but enough of the snide anti-us bs

[Armand_Duval]

Bro this is what made you respond with the pretentious bs that i supposedly deserved. Hence this was the only post relevant. Nice try.

sigh. I already recognized the discovery of the west by the Spanish Crown in multiple posts. I suppose its a long thread and maybe you didn't see them?

yes, and to be honest I never gave a shit about the mayflower or pilgrims anyway. the revolution is sort of interesting, but nothing compared to most of european history for me.

That General Bernardo did specifically? no. That Spain did? Yes.

I called you a chauvinist because of how defensive you were in regard to my opinion that (paraphrase) In regard to the terms of this thread, Iberia is not anywhere near as high as that of France or Germany, but in comparison to Europe or the World as a whole, it is exceptional". I even praised Iberia and you still responded with the ad hominem crap. It came off pretty damn chauvinistic. And the fact that the only people to vote for iberia in this thread is highly suggestive of chauvinism.


If you want to argue with the post where I summed up my views as opposed to wasting your time, take a little look back. I don't remember what page its on, but it has 6 upvotes and I clearly identified what I thought. I later expressed my admiration for Spain as a country in comparison to Europe and the rest of the World to another guy who misconstrued what I said.

Any arguments against those statements I made through the use of evidence, as you did above (unfortunuately using arguments I had already addressed). Feel Free, but enough of the snide anti-us bs

http://www.claseshistoria.com/america/imagenes/virreinato-nuevaespana-mini.gif

The New Spain Viceroyalty territories marked in green.

Pay some respect and study before making dumb statements that only leave a poor image of what you are.

[Dylan]

http://www.claseshistoria.com/america/imagenes/virreinato-nuevaespana-mini.gif

The New Spain Viceroyalty territories marked in green.

Pay some respect and study before making dumb statements that only leave a poor image of what you are.

Already paid my respect in like 4-5 posts. I've literally posted my respect for Iberia and even Mexico more than any other country on this forum as of now lmao
Already knew these territories. You're not introducing anything new.

[Dylan]

http://www.claseshistoria.com/america/imagenes/virreinato-nuevaespana-mini.gif

The New Spain Viceroyalty territories marked in green.

Pay some respect and study before making dumb statements that only leave a poor image of what you are.

https://www.google.com/search?q=french+empire&es_sm=91&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=6eEeVdTSA4OnggSgpIKIAg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1204&bih=608#tbm=isch&q=french+colonial+empire&imgdii=_&imgrc=VYoshfmLMO2xaM%253A%3BBFb9UisVfSGuMM%3Bhttp% 253A%252F%252Fupload.wikimedia.org%252Fwikipedia%2 52Fcommons%252Fc%252Fce%252FFrench_Empire_17th_cen tury-20th_century.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fen.wikipedia .org%252Fwiki%252FFrench_colonial_empire%3B2660%3B 1226

https://www.google.com/search?q=spanish+territories&espv=2&biw=1204&bih=608&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=1eEeVb7hNsfggwTimYCoAw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=spanish+empire&imgdii=_&imgrc=MIcDHLqrwJVIpM%253A%3BaNkPMKT1atWoyM%3Bhttp% 253A%252F%252Fimg1.wikia.nocookie.net%252F__cb2011 0306061100%252Falthistory%252Fimages%252F9%252F90% 252FSpanish_Empire_Anachronous_Post_Westphalia_(Vi cu%2525C3%2525B1a_of_the_East).png%3Bhttp%253A%252 F%252Falthistory.wikia.com%252Fwiki%252FFile%253AS panish_Empire_Anachronous_Post_Westphalia_(Vicu%25 25C3%2525B1a_of_the_East).png%3B2753%3B1400

here's a comparison of the two if you're interested in. And I already expressed explicitly that Spain was the better colonizer so don't try and go there

[EL_BARBARO]

And what about the poll? That is accident, not essence. Especially in this context.

Would you be conscious about you were hidden the History? That they omitted a lot of historical events -own and foreigns- in your education? That they blew other events out of proportion? That historical events of certain countries are manipulated, minimized or simply omitted?

Think about that. At the end perhaps you will realize who is really in the botton of that hole you alluded.

[Armand_Duval]

Already paid my respect in like 4-5 posts. I've literally posted my respect for Iberia and even Mexico more than any other country on this forum as of now lmao
Already knew these territories. You're not introducing anything new.

Now thumbing me down?, don't play the fool on me, I read what you wrote before your editing it, you wrore "Spain discovering the third world"' that's the way you pay rispect?. It looks like spitting to the sky.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

And what about the poll? That is accident, not essence. Especially in this context.

Would you be conscious about you were hidden the History? That they omitted a lot of historical events -own and foreigns- in your education? That they blew other events out of proportion? That historical events of certain countries are manipulated, minimized or simply omitted?

Think about that. At the end perhaps you will realize who is really in the botton of that hole you alluded.

more ad hominem argument. Stop, you look so stupid :D American education system is completely irrelevant, why do you keep bringing it up? Like I said, you are obviously inferring all Americans or most Americans are stupid, otherwise why keep bringing up American education system? Last time I heard Mexican education system was more fucked than ours (intended for Armand, not you). Yet I never bring this up, because it is irrelevant.

[Dylan]

And what about the poll? That is accident, not essence. Especially in this context.

Would you be conscious about you were hidden the History? That they omitted a lot of historical events -own and foreigns- in your education? That they blew other events out of proportion? That historical events of certain countries are manipulated, minimized or simply omitted?

Think about that. At the end perhaps you will realize who is really in the botton of that hole you alluded.

Look, buddy, I told you. If you have a problem with the posts in which I expressed my reasoning behind my choice, critique THAT.

Stop trying to change the subject or avoid confronting my argument directly.

[Dylan]

Now thumbing me down?, don't play the fool on me, I read what you wrote before your editing it, you wrore "Spain discovering the third world"' that's the way you pay rispect?. It looks like spitting to the sky.

Yeah I did write that and then I edited out my error. Lol that wasn't a disrespect, although I can sort of see how you might take it that way, it was a slip of the tongue. I have an immense amount of respect for Spain in terms of its pre-1713 naval, colonial, power. It was top of the line, second only to Britain. I already expressed this, but in reference to France. The fact that you focus on that one dumb word choice in the context of 5 posts in which i explicitly admire/praise (even using those words) Spain as a colonizer is kinda strange.

[Armand_Duval]

Yeah I did write that and then I edited out my error. Lol that wasn't a disrespect, although I can sort of see how you might take it that way, it was a slip of the tongue. I have an immense amount of respect for Spain in terms of its pre-1713 naval, colonial, power. It was top of the line, second only to Britain. I already expressed this, but in reference to France. The fact that you focus on that one dumb word choice in the context of 5 posts in which i explicitly admire/praise (even using those words) Spain as a colonizer is kinda strange.

I have respect to the USA and I don't have problem to acknowlege USA is perhaps the most influential power in all our history, but it annoyes me to see how people like you have no respect to others achievements and culture you cannot avoid to look other cultures over your shoulder just like an ignorant newly rich.

[Dylan]

I have respect to the USA and I don't gave problem to acknowlege USA is perhaps the most influential power in all our history, but it annoyes me to see how people like you have no respect to others achievements and culture you cannot avoid to look other cultures over your shoulder just like an ignorant newly rich.

The funny thing is I have dedicated 1 post on this thread to acknowldeging usa as a power culturally, 1 to Mexico in terms of history, and now 5-6 outright praising Iberia/Spain. You're confused bro.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I have respect to the USA and I don't have problem to acknowlege USA is perhaps the most influential power in all our history, but it annoyes me to see how people like you have no respect to others achievements and culture you cannot avoid to look other cultures over your shoulder just like an ignorant newly rich.

HE JUST SAID HE APPRECIATED WHAT SPAIN HAS CONTRIBUTED TO THE WORLD LIKE A BILLION TIMES

you have to either be incredibly stupid or trolling us. WE ARE THANKFUL FOR WHAT SPANISH AND MEXICAN PEOPLE (not ones like you though) HAVE DONE FOR HUMANITY, WE HAVE SAID IT A BILLION TIMES ALREADY

(caps lock is to get yer fucking attention mate)

[Dylan]

HE JUST SAID HE APPRECIATED WHAT SPAIN HAS CONTRIBUTED TO THE WORLD LIKE A BILLION TIMES

you have to either be incredibly stupid or trolling us. WE ARE THANKFUL FOR WHAT SPANISH AND MEXICAN PEOPLE (not ones like you though) HAVE DONE FOR HUMANITY, WE HAVE SAID IT A BILLION TIMES ALREADY

This is what I mean when I say inferiority complex. Its like when you tell a girl shes pretty 100000 times, but one time you say the wrong word and say shirt or whatever makes her look fat, and suddenly she thinks that you think shes ugly because of one word slip amongst a sea of praise. (not all girls are like this, but you know what i mean)

[EL_BARBARO]

http://www.claseshistoria.com/america/imagenes/virreinato-nuevaespana-mini.gif

The New Spain Viceroyalty territories marked in green.

Pay some respect and study before making dumb statements that only leave a poor image of what you are.


http://mitofago.com.mx/sites/default/files/image9.jpg


That was actually the Viceroyalty of the New Spain in times of the American Revolution. It included the Gobernación de la Luisiana, where Bernardo de Galvez was its governor during the Am Revolution and from where he helped US revolutionaries with supplies, men, guns, blockeo-ships, won battles, a huge of money, etc. etc. Before the US independence, he became viceroy of the entire vicerroyalti of NS, until his soon death.

As you can realize, Viceroyalty of New Spain occupied more of the 2/3 of the present USA, plus current Mexico, Central America, Cuba, Philippines, Mariana Islands, Guam, etc. etc.

Un tio bravo. Malagueño, para más señas. Como yo. ;)

[Armand_Duval]

HE JUST SAID HE APPRECIATED WHAT SPAIN HAS CONTRIBUTED TO THE WORLD LIKE A BILLION TIMES

you have to either be incredibly stupid or trolling us. WE ARE THANKFUL FOR WHAT SPANISH AND MEXICAN PEOPLE (not ones like you though) HAVE DONE FOR HUMANITY, WE HAVE SAID IT A BILLION TIMES ALREADY

(caps lock is to get yer fucking attention mate)

Maybe I was just dreaming when saw your lolz at CV's posts in reference Spain changed the face if the world then?.

If your mockery didn't happen then I guess I am stupid......


lol how?

But not that stupid I guess......

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Maybe I was just dreaming when saw your lolz at CV's posts in reference Spain changed the face if the world then?.

If your mockery didn't happen then I guess I am stupid......



But not that stupid I guess......

I was joking....you should have known since I said a billion times afterwards I am thankful for Spanish contributions to the world. Why don't you quote me saying that? You cherrypick my posts then.

[Dylan]

http://mitofago.com.mx/sites/default/files/image9.jpg


That was actually the Viceroyalty of the New Spain in times of the American Revolution. It included the Gobernación de la Luisiana, where Bernardo de Galvez was its governor during the Am Revolution and from where he helped US revolutionaries with supplies, men, guns, blockeo-ships, won battles, a huge of money, etc. etc. Before the US independence, he became viceroy of the entire vicerroyalti of NS, until his soon death.

As you can realize, Viceroyalty of New Spain occupied more of the 2/3 of the present USA, plus current Mexico, Central America, Cuba, Philippines, Mariana Islands, Guam, etc. etc.

Un tio bravo. Malagueño, para más señas. Como yo. ;)

It's impressive, but to be fair much of that Land was never really under the jurisdiction of Spain. Nominally in charge, yes. But they didn't really hold much sway. By that I mean the northern parts and louisiana etc. that's why France and the GB took over much of that territory. Thank you for the informative post, I had no idea that they ever reached so far north. Although their influence and power up north etc. wasn't really worth anything, its impressive that they made it there.

[EL_BARBARO]

more ad hominem argument. Stop, you look so stupid :D American education system is completely irrelevant, why do you keep bringing it up? Like I said, you are obviously inferring all Americans or most Americans are stupid, otherwise why keep bringing up American education system? Last time I heard Mexican education system was more fucked than ours (intended for Armand, not you). Yet I never bring this up, because it is irrelevant.

You got a serious problem. Just that are you inferring from my posts?

Is that really what you understand after having read my post?

I think you have a serious complex. I repeat: I never called USans stupids!

But you keep on insulting! Is this your arguement, insulting over and over again?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

You got a serious problem. Just that are you inferring from my posts?

Is that really what you understand after having reading my post?

I think you have a serious complex. I repeat: I never called USans stupids!

But you keep on insulting! Is this your arguement, insulting over and over again?

Quit trying to change the subject and answer me. I asked you WHY did you mention American education system, it's irrelevant. The only reason you would have mentioned it is because we're Americans, right? Therefore you were inferring we were idiots. Anyways, Mexican education system is far worse, and Spanish education system? I don't know. But Spain has it's problems.

[Armand_Duval]

I was joking....you should have known since I said a billtion times afterwards I am thankful for Spanish contributions to the world. Why don't you quote me saying that? You cherrypick my posts.

Now it turns you're a goodie two shoes and I am an ignorant if not stupid complexed jerk?, good try but no you ain't gonna flip the fucking tortilla on me now we cornered you and your bud...and showed you guys your ignorance and pitiful sense of entitlement before everybody.

[Dylan]

You got a serious problem. Just that are you inferring from my posts?

Is that really what you understand after having reading my post?

I think you have a serious complex. I repeat: I never called USans stupids!

But you keep on insulting! Is this your arguement, insulting over and over again?

you didn't call americans stupid. he's saying that because you you frequently diagnosed what you saw as historical illiteracy as a result of the poor or biased "american education system" rather than actually confront the content of the argument.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Now it turns you're a goodie two shoes and I am an ignorant if not stupid complexed jerk?, good try but no you ain't gonna flip the fucking tortilla on me now we cornered you and your bud...and showed you guys your ignorance and pitiful sense of entitlement before everybody.

LOL no you didn't...all you did was try to personally insult me and that guy. You never answered many of the questions we asked you, because you know you were wrong. Clearly outsiders (except Spaniards and Mexicans with an agenda, the only people thumbing your posts) will see that it is you who are making fools of yourselves, not us.

[Dylan]

Now it turns you're a goodie two shoes and I am an ignorant if not stupid complexed jerk?, good try but no you ain't gonna flip the fucking tortilla on me now we cornered you and your bud...and showed you guys your ignorance and pitiful sense of entitlement before everybody.




oh my god, such horse shit. i stated my opinion, gave the reasons behind it. clarified that despite my belief that france and germany were superior in the ways specified by this thread, that the countries of iberia were great in comparison to the rest of the world and europe. Even acknowledging Spain's superiority to France in colonialism (which many would argue is not the case)
Cornered? bullshit. All you did was make straw man and ad hominem arguments over and over again. (strawman = attacking an argument that has not been made).

You finally provided an interesting factoid in one of the last posts which i appreciated, but it appears that was a one time thing.

lol you proved entitlement and ignorance? looooooool What do I feel entitled to? Having people argue with me using facts rather than attack us education or my character, etc.? and ignorance? ignorance of what? all you did was make a post showing a map I already knew and prejudicially assumed I didnt

I thought I saw a glimmer of hope from you, but I have since been disappointed after this. done with this thread

[EL_BARBARO]

It's impressive, but to be fair much of that Land was never really under the jurisdiction of Spain. Nominally in charge, yes. But they didn't really hold much sway. By that I mean the northern parts and louisiana etc. that's why France and the GB took over much of that territory. Thank you for the informative post, I had no idea that they ever reached so far north. Although their influence and power up north etc. wasn't really worth anything, its impressive that they made it there.

Actually this post was adressed to my compadre Armand. But it's the same.

The French weren't there any more, when the territory of la Luisiana belonged to Spain. Just France gave them to Spain, after the war against the English.

Legally and de facto those territories belonged to the Virreinato of the New Spain. There were a lot of cities along the Mississippi River of spanish foundation, with spanish Administration. Actually it was Ponce de Leon -another Spaniard- who discovered this river.

But I let the off-topic...

[Rudel]

We're the greatest, in general. Not just compared to Spaniard, Germans and what have you.

[EL_BARBARO]

you didn't call americans stupid. he's saying that because you you frequently diagnosed what you saw as historical illiteracy as a result of the poor or biased "american education system" rather than actually confront the content of the argument.


One thing is a suspect of manipulation in the education about Universal History and other very different is to call sb stupid!!!

Don't create false argumentations!

[Dylan]

Actually this post was adressed to my compadre Armand. But it's the same.

The French weren't there any more, when the territory of la Luisiana belonged to Spain. Just France gave them to Spain, after the war against the English.

Legally and de facto those territories belonged to the Virreinato of the New Spain. There were a lot of cities along the Mississippi River of spanish foundation, with spanish Administration. Actually it was Ponce de Leon -another Spaniard- who discovered this river.

But I let the off-topic...

I'm referring to the Lousiana purchase which was after all this. When France gave up on its Atlantic colonial interests and sold them all to the US in the late 1700s or whenever it was.

[EL_BARBARO]

Quit trying to change the subject and answer me. I asked you WHY did you mention American education system, it's irrelevant. The only reason you would have mentioned it is because we're Americans, right? Therefore you were inferring we were idiots. Anyways, Mexican education system is far worse, and Spanish education system? I don't know. But Spain has it's problems.


Don't cry so much, please!

Do you want a tissue?

[Dylan]

One thing is a suspect of manipulation in the education about Universal History and other very different is to call sb stupid!!!

Don't create false argumentations!

yeah, I just said you didn't call americans stupid. I was trying to clarify what he meant.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

One thing is a suspect of manipulation in the education about Universal History and other very different is to call sb stupid!!!

Don't create false argumentations!

No, you don't get it. If you weren't trying to infer that us Americans (me and Dylan) were dumb because you disagreed with us, then WHY did you bring up the American education system in the first place? Obviously you were inferring we were dumb because of the American education system...

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Don't cry so much, please!

Do you want a tissue?

I said answer me. Look, you're not answering me. You keep trying to change the subject, and you keep bashing me with ad hominem insults. This is so pathetic. If you're not going to answer my one question, then I've obviously won this little feud.

[Armand_Duval]

oh my god, such horse shit. i stated my opinion, gave the reasons behind it. clarified that despite my belief that france and germany were superior in the ways specified by this thread, that the countries of iberia were great in comparison to the rest of the world and europe. Even acknowledging Spain's superiority to France in colonialism (which many would argue is not the case)
Cornered? bullshit. All you did was make straw man and ad hominem arguments over and over again. (strawman = attacking an argument that has not been made).

You finally provided an interesting factoid in one of the last posts which i appreciated, but it appears that was a one time thing.

lol you proved entitlement and ignorance? looooooool What do I feel entitled to? Having people argue with me using facts rather than attack us education or my character, etc.?

I thought I saw a glimmer of hope from you, but I have since been disappointed after this. done with this thread

Really?.


And what is this?


iberians lol

Why lol?... So to your eyes it is ridiculous iberia could be over the other two options?

Or it is ridiculous that just the iberians voted for iberia?, why shouldn't they?


Of course it is, didnt you know? you should be ashamed of yourself! you live there!

Iberia is actually a georaphical region shared by two counties it is not a country itself.

Why should he feel ashamed to live there?.



I think its funny how the only 2 people who voted for iberia are iberians...
c h a u v i n i s m


Why is it funny?, the french voted france, is it funny too?.


Your sarcasm is sublte nonetheless it is there.

Do not try to play the fool on us now and try to going tangent once cornered bud.

[Dylan]

No, you don't get it. If you weren't trying to infer that us Americans (me and Dylan) were dumb because you disagreed with us, then WHY did you bring up the American education system in the first place? Obviously you were inferring we were dumb because of the American education system...

Ignore him. He's proven to the world, the joke he is. Responding to legit critqiues with "do you need a tissue", is a joke. Failing to directly confront logical arugments with logical critiques and instead changing the subject to the us education system is a joke. And everyone who has seen this thread who is not pushing any agenda has agreed with us. If they actually paid attention to what we said, they'd probably agree with us at some level too.

Just drop it, don't let them waste your time as much as we already have.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Really?.


And what is this?



Why lol?... So to your eyes it is ridiculous iberia could be over the other two options?

Or it is ridiculous that just the iberians voted for iberia?, why shouldn't they?



Iberia is actually a georaphical region shared by two counties it is not a country itself.

Why should he feel ashamed to live there?.





Why is it funny?, the french voted france, is it funny too?.


Your sarcasm is sublte nonetheless it is there.

Do not try to play the fool on us now and try to going tangent once cornered bud.

Yes, it IS ridiculous Iberia could be better than France and Germany over all...also the point was ONLY Iberian users voted Iberians, whilst people from all nationalities and ethnicities voted for Germans and French. I gotta admit, you're fucking strawman arguments are a little annoying.

[Dylan]

Really?.


And what is this?



Why lol?... So to your eyes it is ridiculous iberia could be over the other two options?

Or it is ridiculous that just the iberians voted for iberia?, why shouldn't they?



Iberia is actually a georaphical region shared by two counties it is not a country itself.

Why should he feel ashamed to live there?.





Why is it funny?, the french voted france, is it funny too?.


Your sarcasm is sublte nonetheless it is there.

Do not try to play the fool on us now and try to going tangent once cornered bud.

oh boy, all of that was sarcasm bro. i was making fun of the fact that the thread listed iberia as opposed to spain/portugal separately.

The only part that wasn't a joke/sarcasm was the chauvinist part. I'm sure some of the French and Germans who voted France/Germany did so for reasons of Chauvinism, but heres the difference (not on an individual basis, but a collective one). There were non french and non german people who voted for these countries whereas literally only iberians and latinos voted for iberia and considering its now 6 votes compared to 15 and 15. Put this altogether and its highly suggesstive of collective chauvinism. i'm sure some of the people who voted for iberia who were iberians arent and im sure some of the french and germans who voted france and germany were, but hopefully you get the point.

[Armand_Duval]

Yes, it IS ridiculous Iberia could be better than France and Germany over all...also the point was ONLY Iberian users voted Iberians, whilst people from all nationalities and ethnicities voted for Germans and French. I gotta admit, you're fucking strawman arguments are a little annoying.

Actually i am not iberian and voted iberia, perhaps I could have voted France aswell but from my own point of view Iberia played a more important role at least in regards of detonating the series of facts that gave us existence so for me it has to be iberia.

Why is it Germany better in your opinion, I'd like to know?..master race concept involved or something?.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

oh boy, all of that was sarcasm bro. i was making fun of the fact that the thread listed iberia as opposed to spain/portugal separately.

The only part that wasn't a joke/sarcasm was the chauvinist part. I'm sure some of the French and Germans who voted France/Germany did so for reasons of Chauvinism, but heres the difference (not on an individual basis, but a collective one). There were non french and non german people who voted for these countries whereas literally only iberians and latinos voted for iberia and considering its now 6 votes compared to 15 and 15. Put this altogether and its highly suggesstive of collective chauvinism. i'm sure some of the people who voted for iberia who were iberians arent and im sure some of the french and germans who voted france and germany were, but hopefully you get the point.

You are wasting your time by now arguing with these two numbskulls, the one can't even answer a simple question! (el barbaro). Until he answers me I am out.

[Dylan]

Actually i am not iberian and voted iberia, perhaps I could have voted France aswell but from my own point of view Iberia played a more important role at least in regards of detonating the series of facts that gave us existence so for me it has to be iberia.

Why is it Germany better in your opinion, I'd like to know?..master race concept involved or something?.

"Masterrace concept" - such prejudice. as if thats the only reason someone could conceive germany was the most important under the conditions of this thread. come on man.

dude it says on your profile that you're iberian and french and are from mexico

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Actually i am not iberian and voted iberia, perhaps I could have voted France aswell but from my own point of view Iberia played a more important role at least in regards of detonating the series of facts that gave us existence so for me it has to be iberia.

Why is it Germany better in your opinion, I'd like to know?..master race concept involved or something?.

Good god. I'm probably the most Liberal person on this forum, and now you are accusing me of being racist or something? You'd have to be dim not to see that the French and Germans have given far more than the Iberians. I acknowledge what the Iberians have given us, but it does not nearly amount to everything the French and Germans have given to the world.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

"Masterrace concept" - such prejudice. as if thats the only reason someone could conceive germany was the most important under the conditions of this thread. come on man.

dude it says on your profile that you're iberian and french and are from mexico

Exactly. It is extremely pejudice that once armand hears 'german' he thinks of 'masterrace concept'. Obviously that's not why I voted Germany (well I actually voted France, but I said Germany was close). And Armand himself is Iberian 'ethnically'.

[Dylan]

Exactly. It is extremely pejudice that once armand hears 'german' he thinks of 'masterrace concept'. Obviously that's not why I voted Germany (well I actually voted France, but I said Germany was close). And Armand himself is Iberian 'ethnically'.

Even I'm part Iberian, seeing as some of my french family is Basque and Catalan. I even have 1 Castillian ancestor, although that one is irrelevant.

[Empecinado]

Yes, it IS ridiculous Iberia could be better than France and Germany over all...also the point was ONLY Iberian users voted Iberians, whilst people from all nationalities and ethnicities voted for Germans and French. I gotta admit, you're fucking strawman arguments are a little annoying.


Argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

[Armand_Duval]

Good god. I'm probably the most Liberal person on this forum, and now you are accusing me of being racist or something? You'd have to be dim not to see that the French and Germans have given far more than the Iberians. I acknowledge what the Iberians have given us, but it does not nearly amount to everything the French and Germans have given to the world.



Ok, lets leave iberia out of this and just stay with France and Germany...For me France has been better, Lemme know why you think germany is better?, France has been one of the ones who shaped the modern world. German contribution has been mayoritarly in technology but it has been overshadowed by their sins in Second World War.

Your country fought vs Germany a terrible war and yet you're willing to suck german dick?

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

Yeah, exactly. I don't know why you need to explain this to me :)

[Armand_Duval]

Exactly. It is extremely pejudice that once armand hears 'german' he thinks of 'masterrace concept'. Obviously that's not why I voted Germany (well I actually voted France, but I said Germany was close). And Armand himself is Iberian 'ethnically'.

Not quite I am part injun.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Ok, lets leave iberia out of this and just stay with France and Germany...For me France has been better, Lemme know why you think germany is better?, France has been one of the ones who shaped the modern world. German contribution has been mayoritarly in technology but it has been overshadowed by their sins in Second World War.

Your country fought vs Germany a terrible war and yet you're willing to suck german dick?

I'm not 'sucking German dick'....you know what fuck it. You are just impossible to try to deal with.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

Not quite I am part injun.

yeah, and part iberian

[Dylan]

Argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This is a good point, but the fact that only Iberians voted Iberia whereas France and Germany received a variety of different voters is highly suggesstive that Iberians are either chauvinists or receiving manipulated facts. This isn't exactly argumentum ad populum. Argumentum ad populum would be if Maximus said, Germany and France got more votes, therefore Iberia is not as good. What he is saying is different.
(suggesstive, but not proof).

[Smeagol]

French contributed the most overall in the arts and sciences. Germany is a close second. Iberia doesn't even come close.

[Dylan]

Ok, lets leave iberia out of this and just stay with France and Germany...For me France has been better, Lemme know why you think germany is better?, France has been one of the ones who shaped the modern world. German contribution has been mayoritarly in technology but it has been overshadowed by their sins in Second World War.

Your country fought vs Germany a terrible war and yet you're willing to suck german dick?

to be fair, I don't think this thread included morality. If it did, that would certainly drop all three way down considering the atrocities considered in the holocaust, french murder of native americans, africans, french in indochina, and the violence conducted by conquistadores.

Honestly what the French and Spanish did to the people of the colonies is comparable to what the Nazis did (I'm not saying the same, but one could compare them rationally) - And I say this with the knowledge that my French ancestors knowingly did this to Natives, some of these natives I am in fact a descendent of, but only at a small scale.
I'd thumb up this comment if you left out the sucking german dick part

[Armand_Duval]

I'm not 'sucking German dick'....you know what fuck it. You are just impossible to try to deal with.

And yet you wouldn't give your reasons why Germany is better in your opinion.....it looks like j plaining sucking german dick because and simply...it is german!!!.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

And yet you wouldn't give your reasons why Germany is better in your opinion.....it looks like j plaining sucking german dick because and simply...it is german!!!.

I will answer your questions after you answer ours. We asked our questions first. You have been ignoring our questions, now you get pissed when I ignore yours? First answer ours.

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

If it includes morality than Iberia wins. But I don't think it's what TBB meant.

[Dylan]

If it includes morality than Iberia wins. But I don't think it's what TBB meant.

If it includes morality, I have no idea who wins, because the Conquistadores were fucking brutal in South and Central America. But then again, the French were brutal too wherever they went. And then again, the Germans did the fucking holocaust. They all committed genocides of their own in different ways.

Basically any country of relevance (im excluding tiny goodie two shoes countries like norway) has blood on its hands in this sense.
US, Russia, Cambodia, Britain, everyone practically

[Armand_Duval]

I will answer your questions after you answer ours. We asked our questions first. You have been ignoring our questions, now you get pissed when I ignore yours? First answer ours.

I beg your pardon but honestly I missed the question, would you be so kind to repeat it for me to answer it?.:rolleyes:

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

I beg your pardon but honestly I missed the question, would you be so kind to repeat it for me to answer it?.:rolleyes:

No, go back and look at me and Dylan's arguments. Until you do so, and until el barbaro answers one simple fucking question i have asked him ages ago but he keeps refusing to answer because he knows I'm right, I should not talk to you or him.

[Dylan]

I beg your pardon but honestly I missed the question, would you be so kind to repeat it for me to answer it?.:rolleyes:

I don't have any questions. I'm done with this thread. I think you and I have reached some level of aggreement, so lets let it stay that way.

[Armand_Duval]

If it includes morality, I have no idea who wins, because the Conquistadores were fucking brutal in South and Central America. But then again, the French were brutal too wherever they went. And then again, the Germans did the fucking holocaust. They all committed genocides of their own in different ways.

Basically any country of relevance (im excluding tiny goodie two shoes countries like norway) has blood on its hands in this sense.
US, Russia, Cambodia, Britain, everyone practically


If it comes to morality then Germany is at the level of the SS africa simply because what they did was in the XX century and they carried out genocide as an state policy.

Conquerors were cruel so their enemies, and take into account conquerors were ppl who have just virtually came out of the middle ages. Spain nonetheless never carried out genocide as an state policy, on the other hand they created the Leyes the Indias, a series of laws that protected the native americans and considered them as subjects to the crown.

[EL_BARBARO]

I said answer me. Look, you're not answering me. You keep trying to change the subject, and you keep bashing me with ad hominem insults. This is so pathetic. If you're not going to answer my one question, then I've obviously won this little feud.

In general, I think USans aren't dumb at all.

About you, given what we have seen, I am not pretty sure wether you aren't.

[B01AB20]

In modern times, since the XVIII century at least, I think Spain and Potugal have been in bad shape, they left behind their better times and they fell behind of powers like France or England.

But if we consider the transcendence and projection into the future, and therefore the formation of present day world, no fact matches the fact of the discovering and colonization of America and the beginning of 'the age of discoveries' (and colonization of almost the entire world) which was started by humble iberian people.

Other cultures and civilizations have been more technically advanced than europe through the ages, other peoples have been more powerful, more cultured, more sophisticated...

But can you imagine how it would be the modern world if america would have been discovered and colonized by for example, the chinese in the pacific side and by turks the atlantic side?

Do you think the modern world would be the same as it is today with the western world being 'the master of the entire world'?.

[Armand_Duval]

I don't have any questions. I'm done with this thread. I think you and I have reached some level of aggreement, so lets let it stay that way.

Now I try to establish a respectful debate without mockery and sarcasm it turns out you play the offended and leave not without you giving a few reasons why germany is better...mmmmm...

[Dylan]

In modern times, since the XVIII century at least, I think Spain and Potugal have been in bad shape, they left behind their better times and they fell behind of powers like France or England.

But if we consider the transcendence and projection into the future, and therefore the formation of present day world, no fact matches the fact of the discovering and colonization of America and the beginning of 'the age of discoveries' (and colonization of almost the entire world) which was started by humble iberian people.

Other cultures and civilizations have been more technically advanced than europe through the ages, other peoples have been more powerful, more cultured, more sophisticated...

But can you imagine how it would be the modern world if america would have been discovered and colonized by for example, the chinese in the pacific side and by turks the atlantic side?

Do you think the modern world would be the same as is it today with the western world being 'the master of the entire world'?.

Solid argument.

[Dylan]

Now I try to establish a respectful debate without mockery and sarcasm it turns out you play the offended and leave not without you giving a few reasons why germany is better...mmmmm...

1. I'm not offended 2. I've already wasted 4 hours man, I'm 3. I don't think Germany is better. I haven't even mentioned Germany at all. Basically only France and Spain. I think this comment was intended for maximus?

In regard to food
Iberia is better than Germany
Technology/Innovaton
Germany by a long shot.
Overall Impact
Depends on what you think changed the world more, Age of Discovery or the World War's? Its tough and you can argue either way.

I think Iberia edges out Germany becasue I think the Age of Discovery is more important than World War II + German innovation. But I'm not completely sure because its likely that another western european power would have came a few years later to the new world had the spanish never sent colombus on that voyage in 1492. It wouldn't make much of a difference if say, Italy or France or Britian initiated the Age of Discovery in say 1495 or even a lot later than that. Of course we cannot know what would have happened.
Its difficult to compare. I'll put it this way, they're both crazy significant. Also, while the German colonialism was a joke compared to Spain/Portugal, it did happen at a small scale. Germany also has the Protestant Reformation etc. on its side

[Empecinado]

This is a good point, but the fact that only Iberians voted Iberia whereas France and Germany received a variety of different voters is highly suggesstive that Iberians are either chauvinists or receiving manipulated facts. This isn't exactly argumentum ad populum. Argumentum ad populum would be if Maximus said, Germany and France got more votes, therefore Iberia is not as good. What he is saying is different.
(suggesstive, but not proof).

What I see is that people, not only in this thread but in the forum and everywhere, tend to like some stuff according what they find the most cool and not their intrinsical value. That's why companies spend a shitload in advertising.

So as an Iberian will vote Iberia, as it's ours after all and therefore most likely to appreciate, others will vote according what they find to be most cool too. Even if Spain objetively surpassed France and Germany in every field (which obviuosly is not the case), people would vote for France or Germany because these countries have better world image and a more known history while ours is usually unknown and have worse image because we are bad when comes to propaganda and have a historical negative view due propaganda too (la leyenda negra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend)).

That's why people will really think the Wehrmacht was better than Tercios, despite any expert on military history will agree that's not true. But irl this is also the reason why an average person will prefer a French wine over a Spanish one even if its objetively worse. And in this forum the motto is "the northern the best, the southern the worst" and we aren't neither very liked because we are deemed as arrogant and chauvinist, so even if Spain was objetively better than the other countries, you would see the other countries winning.

I'm aware about that and I'm not here to brag about "Spain is da best" but shown stuff about Spain that most of people ignore and correct those who -conscienciously or not- spread lies about us. In fact I entered in this thread to highlight things were historically Spain was better than France or Germany, not to discuss about "who is greater".

[Dylan]

What I see is that people, not only in this thread but in the forum and everywhere, tend to like some stuff according what they find the most cool and not their intrinsical value. That's why companies spend a shitload in advertising.

So as an Iberian will vote Iberia, as it's ours after all and therefore most likely to appreciate, others will vote according what they find to be most cool too. Even if Spain objetively surpassed France and Germany in every field (which obviuosly is not the case), people would vote for France or Germany because these countries have better world image and a more known history while ours is usually unknown and have worse image because we are bad when comes to propaganda and have a historical negative view due propaganda too (la leyenda negra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend)).

That's why people will really think the Wehrmacht was better than Tercios, despite any expert on military history will agree that's not true. But irl this is also the reason why an average person will prefer a French wine over a Spanish one even if its objetively worse. And in this forum the motto is "the northern the best, the southern the worst" and we aren't neither very liked because we are deemed as arrogant and chauvinist, so even if Spain was objetively better than the other countries, you would see the other countries winning.

I'm aware about that and I'm not here to brag about "Spain is da best" but shown stuff about Spain that most of people ignore and correct those who -conscienciously or not- spread lies about us. In fact I entered in this thread to highlight things were historically Spain was better than France or Germany, not to discuss about "who is greater".

solid post.
But I don't think people are quite as Anti-Spain or as oblivious to their triumphs as you're saying.

[Smeagol]

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/2-3.jpg

[B01AB20]

French contributed the most overall in the arts and sciences. Germany is a close second. Iberia doesn't even come close.

In regard of 'arts' darling, many impartial thinkers think that France, Italy and Spain have contributed the most, and the rest doesn't come even close...

But arts are very subjective and matter of chauvinism I guess.

[B01AB20]

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/2-3.jpg

well, the big four, and everybody else...

but in the group of 'everybody else' :D Spain is in 'the ahead part', who would have said eh?

[Empecinado]

solid post.
But I don't think people are quite as Anti-Spain or as oblivious to their triumphs as you're saying.

Not neccesarily anti-Spain, just having a bias negative towards us for several reasons depending on case (because southern, imperial past, arrogance, negative propaganda, antisemitism in case of Jews...).

[EL_BARBARO]

No, go back and look at me and Dylan's arguments. Until you do so, and until el barbaro answers one simple fucking question i have asked him ages ago but he keeps refusing to answer because he knows I'm right, I should not talk to you or him.


You can wait sitting.

I won't answer you anything at all, until you calm down, you hysteric person.

[Ibericus]

Spain.

French and german are overrated, specially Germans.

[Armand_Duval]

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/2-3.jpg

Russia and Netherlands before Spain?.. Lolz.

I don't agree.

Besides every german contribution should be eclipsed by what happened in second WW, what they gave us in science and technology simply doesn't match what they took away from mankind..... Millions of human lifes including women and innocen children are simply an excessive price for your Bimmer or your Mercedes even if you happen to own a Mercedes Mclaren...lolz.

[Smeagol]

Besides every german contribution should be eclipsed by what happened in second WW, what they gave us in science and technology simply doesn't match what they took away from mankind..... Millions of human lifes including women and innocen children are simply an excessive price for your Bimmer or your Mercedes even if you happen to own a Mercedes Mclaren...lolz.

But I don't think this question takes morality into account though.

[Smeagol]

Russia and Netherlands before Spain?.. Lolz.

I don't agree.

It's proven in the book.

[Armand_Duval]

1. I'm not offended 2. I've already wasted 4 hours man, I'm 3. I don't think Germany is better. I haven't even mentioned Germany at all. Basically only France and Spain. I think this comment was intended for maximus?

In regard to food
Iberia is better than Germany
Technology/Innovaton
Germany by a long shot.
Overall Impact
Depends on what you think changed the world more, Age of Discovery or the World War's? Its tough and you can argue either way.

I think Iberia edges out Germany becasue I think the Age of Discovery is more important than World War II + German innovation. But I'm not completely sure because its likely that another western european power would have came a few years later to the new world had the spanish never sent colombus on that voyage in 1492. It wouldn't make much of a difference if say, Italy or France or Britian initiated the Age of Discovery in say 1495 or even a lot later than that. Of course we cannot know what would have happened.
Its difficult to compare. I'll put it this way, they're both crazy significant. Also, while the German colonialism was a joke compared to Spain/Portugal, it did happen at a small scale. Germany also has the Protestant Reformation etc. on its side

The same argumentation could be used for everything in history..."if Flemming hadn't discovered the peniciline sure other scientist could have come up with it some years later, if Pasteur wouldn't have come up with his vaccines sure other could have done it!.... Bullshit!.

Pasteur and Flemming have their place in history carved with golden letters saving millions of lifes, and it was Spain who discovered america and conquered it changing the face of the world too.

[EL_BARBARO]

Russia and Netherlands before Spain?.. Lolz.

I don't agree.

Besides every german contribution should be eclipsed by what happened in second WW, what they gave us in science and technology simply doesn't match what they took away from mankind..... Millions of human lifes including women and innocen children are simply an excessive price for your Bimmer or your Mercedes even if you happen to own a Mercedes Mclaren...lolz.

Mode joke on.

But, man, it is the page of a booook, and besides written in English!!

It must be true everything what's written on it!!!

If they say Russia, then Russia!!!

Mode joke off.


Sincerily, I am not suprised about the degree of lack of knowledge, but about the things about the people here considere important to point out one country as "greater than". You've read: food, girls,... That show -again- what a kind of level we have here about everything, History included.

Ah, and if you dare say something against... you're a chauvinist! :D

If we could have crossed statistics between votes and "reasons" of the voters, I think we could laugh here till the end of the world :rotfl:

[Stimpy]

who did more important things in humanity who had the higher civilisation who has the better food the prettier girls etc. You know what i mean.

Germany is the clear winner. Except for the ''better food'' part, that is.

[Armand_Duval]

Mode joke on.

But, man, it is the page of a booook, and besides written in English!!

It must be true everything what's written on it!!!

If they say Russia, then Russia!!!

Mode joke off.


Sincerily, I am not suprised about the degree of lack of knowledge, but about the things about the people here considere important to point out one country as "greater than". You've read: food, girls,... That show -again- what a kind of level we have here about everything, History included.

Ah, and if you dare say something against... you're a chauvinist! :D

If we could have crossed statistics between votes and "reasons" of the voters, I think we could laugh here till the end of the world :rotfl:

As I stated in my last post before this one, it was Spain who discovered America and started the ages of exploration and discovering and european colonialism too, such facts overpower most of what Russia and Netherlands and Germany did...whether some ppl like it or not, it has no relevance.

If it hadn't been spain, then other european power could have done it?...Perhaps, but it wasn't other european power, it was Spain!!, same as it was Graham Bell who invented the phone, it was no other but him and period.

[EL_BARBARO]

Germany is the clear winner. Except for the ''better food'' part, that is.

Yes, Germany is clear winner. No need of more reasons.

[Alan Weiss]

All three of them are loser civilizations that are based on the worship of a Jewish zombie that died 2000 years ago...
But I do like french bread pizza and strudel...

[Armand_Duval]

It's proven in the book.

Dont believe in everything you read bud.

How is that Russia overpowers Spain?.. Russia didn't discover america nor introduced many goods to europe as the Chocolate, the tomatoe the turkey, the potatoethe avocado and a wide array other goods from thier discoverings.

You eat your french fries and your pizza and pasta with tomatoe sauce thaks to spanish explorers, there's no such as "others could have done that" it was them, so you guys shoud start respecting those facts the same way we respect it was the USA the one who placed a man on the moon. why nobody says: " maybe the russians or the chinese could have eventually done that".

[Armand_Duval]

All three of them are loser civilizations that are based on the worship of a Jewish zombie that died 2000 years ago...
But I do like french bread pizza and strudel...

That was rather rude.

[Smeagol]

Dont believe in everything you read bud.

Sorry dude but i'm going to take Charles Murray's word over anyone on this forum.

[Yuffayur]

French
Germans
Iberians

[Armand_Duval]

Sorry dude but i'm going to take Charles Murray's word over anyone on this forum.

It is not such as taking Murrays word or not.

According to your criteria then you think the influence of russia and the netherlands exceeds to what spain did discovering america?.

For me it is clear that such accomplishment marked a whole era that overpowers most of what other countries did, for me Spain should be included in the top four of the list just and simply because the relevance of that discovering.

[EL_BARBARO]

As I stated in my last post before this one, it was Spain who discovered America and started the ages of exploration and discovering and european colonialism too, such facts overpower most of what Russia and Netherlands and Germany did...whether some ppl like it or not, it has no relevance.

If it hadn't been spain, then other european power could have done it?...Perhaps, but it wasn't other european power, it was Spain!!, same as it was Graham Bell who invented the phone, it was no other but him and period.


History explains itself not with "if", but with facts. People who use constantly "if..." seem like onanist, honestly.

History was what it was, the facts were what they were.

Iberia not only discovered America to the rest of the world, but also the Pacific Ocean (called the Spanish lagoon for centuries), Antarctics, made definitively contact with the coasts of Far Orient (China, Japan, Philippines, etc.) making possible very important and new trade routes troghout Pacific and Atlantic Oceans via America never existed before, nearing the world, their cultures and civilizations. On the other hand, Iberia brought the Western Civilization (whith all that means) into America, Oceania, Extrem Orient, etc. Their sailors were the first who made the first journey around the world, making possible its knowledge.

Iberia made possible reach India and Far East sailing along the coasts of Africa, crossing the Indic Ocean till India, China, Indonesia, Japan... creating a new great trade route and giving knowledge and contact with those old and far cultures and civilizations, still reacher and sophisticated than the european ones, until mastering them.

The world changed by the hand of Iberia. It was no more an old and dark world, but a new, great, richer and fascinating world, no more darkness. Its effects are still lasting.

The creation of such a level of wealth -till then never known- would explain everything which would happen in the rest of the world -included every european achievement- in the future years, till now.

It would be me too hard to enumerate every single fact -in all order- which Iberians made -even before the discoveries journeys- along centuries to prove -whom nothing or little knows- why Iberians would be considered greater than other countries, considering their huge apportations to the whole mankind with their facts, innovations and legacy in the entire world. It would really take me months and months.

I am not surprised people here -this is really no forum of History and most of us are no historians- aren't conscious about that. Movies are always funnier than a good book of History, innit?

Let's watch Pirates of the Caribbean!!!

[Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik]

You can wait sitting.

I won't answer you anything at all, until you calm down, you hysteric person.

So because I'm hysteric is excuse for you to completely ignore my arguments :rolleyes:

[B01AB20]

jaja :D if tomato counts... then there's no doubt!!!

top credit for their producers, I think peruvian indians, and second top credit for their introducers to the rest of the world, humble iberians. :cool:

because seriously, tomato and the infinite sauces based on it is the KING of grastronomy in the entire world.

the modern world is impossible to conceive without tomato.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RG1136531qg/UTLZE6To5YI/AAAAAAAABzU/NMvNTmJPya0/s1600/tomate1.jpg

[Raikaswinþs]

Military History - Spain by a good margin, Follwed by France, then Germany

Cultural Expansion-Influence of its Civilisation throughout space and time; Spain, followed by France, then Germany

Geopolitics- Too close to call, each enjoyed their own century or two (or three) of world domination

Fine Arts-- Too close to call. Each of the three excelled above any other European nation except for Italy.

Pop Arts- France, the other two lag a bit behind

Military Technology- Each had their own world-changeing technologies, but Germany and Iberia are above France in this aspect

Philosophy- Chronollogically speaking, first Spain, then France then Germany. Too close to call

Domestic technology- Germany is the winner here

Science and math- not that Iberia hasn't got its number of great scientists, but France and Germany have particularly excelled in this fields in the last two centuries where the scientific and industrial revolutions took place


Industry- Germany is the clear winner here, followed by France, with Spain being a late bloomer


Cuisine- Close call between France and Spain. Germany is good too.



Conclussion= I think is a draw.

[Smeagol]

It is not such as taking Murrays word or not.

According to your criteria then you think the influence of russia and the netherlands exceeds to what spain did discovering america?.

It's not based on influence.

[Armand_Duval]

My conclussions to this thread is that Spain lacks if a good propaganda staff.

[EL_BARBARO]

Reading a little about the history of the anti-spanish propaganda -which set up la leyenda negra- I realized Spain has never interested in fighting such a shit, from its beginning, I don't know exactly why.

It was just frm XIX century when many intelectuals have claimed against it, and written some articles, essays, etc. to clarify that issue, but none before.

I dont know why, but I think Spaniard of those times - from XIII-XIV* centuries to XIX century- had no interest at all in it, The kept on doing without giving much importance to that propaganda, which with the appareance of the printing reached its top.

Unlike the posterior empires -british, american- who have using of the mass media -printing, cinema, tv, movies- to fight against its possible black legend, Spain did nothing or few als counter-propaganda.

US would be one similar case to Spain those years. The first dominant empire in the world. Hated to the bones by several countries, as Spain then, even though they are overcoming it through their propaganda media -Hollywood, global TV, global publications, etc.

What do you think about? Why did not Spain fight against that Propaganda which became later the Anti-Spanish Black Legend? The handicap to be the first power in the world for so many years?

*Spanish Empire began with the former Aragonese Empire throughout the Mediterranean Sea.

[Armand_Duval]

From Top ten most most important Empires in history,

I see British and French, british before Spain and French after...and that's it.



1. The Roman Empire (27 BCE to 1453)
2. The British Empire (1603 to 1997)
3. The Mongol Empire (1206-1368)
4. The Ottoman Empire (1299-1922).
5. The Achaemenid Empire (ca. 550-330 BCE)
6. The Umayyad Caliphate (661-750)
7. The Qing Dynasty (1644-1912)
8. The Spanish Empire (1492-1976)
One of the first global empires, at its height it possessed territories and colonies in Europe, the Americas, Africa, Asia and Oceania, making it one of the most important political and economic powers in the world for several hundred years. Its establishment in the 15th century also ushered in the modern global era, and five centuries of European dominance of global affairs before competition from other European powers—particularly the French and British—weakened Spain to the point that, by the end of the 19th century, it was but a shadow of its former greatness. The end didn’t finally come until the 1970s, however, when it granted its last colonies in Africa and South America their independence, spelling finito to 600 years of Spanish colonialism. Its chief contribution came in its discovery of the New World in 1492 and the spread of Christianity to the western world, both of which was to dramatically change the geo-political dynamics of the planet and lay the foundation for the modern western world.
9. The French Empire (1534-1962)
10. The Mayan Empire (ca. 2000 BCE-1540 CE)

www.toptenz.net/top-10-most-important-empires-in-history.php

[EL_BARBARO]

I find funny that Spanish Empire has been set in the 8th possition of that ranking of 10 top empires... being honest.

[Armand_Duval]

I find funny that Spanish Empire has been set in the 8th possition of that ranking of 10 top empires... being honest.

Yes but it is actually the third european in importance just behind Rome and British, fact that somehow refutes what ppl say in this thread about spain having less importance than Germany and France.

[EL_BARBARO]

Yes but it is actually the third european in importance just behind Rome and British, fact that somehow refutes what ppl say in this thread about spain having less importance than Germany and France.

Yes, that is clear.

[Dylan]

History explains itself not with "if", but with facts. People who use constantly "if..." seem like onanist, honestly.

History was what it was, the facts were what they were.

Iberia not only discovered America to the rest of the world, but also the Pacific Ocean (called the Spanish lagoon for centuries), Antarctics, made definitively contact with the coasts of Far Orient (China, Japan, Philippines, etc.) making possible very important and new trade routes troghout Pacific and Atlantic Oceans via America never existed before, nearing the world, their cultures and civilizations. On the other hand, Iberia brought the Western Civilization (whith all that means) into America, Oceania, Extrem Orient, etc. Their sailors were the first who made the first journey around the world, making possible its knowledge.

Iberia made possible reach India and Far East sailing along the coasts of Africa, crossing the Indic Ocean till India, China, Indonesia, Japan... creating a new great trade route and giving knowledge and contact with those old and far cultures and civilizations, still reacher and sophisticated than the european ones, until mastering them.

The world changed by the hand of Iberia. It was no more an old and dark world, but a new, great, richer and fascinating world, no more darkness. Its effects are still lasting.

The creation of such a level of wealth -till then never known- would explain everything which would happen in the rest of the world -included every european achievement- in the future years, till now.

It would be me too hard to enumerate every single fact -in all order- which Iberians made -even before the discoveries journeys- along centuries to prove -whom nothing or little knows- why Iberians would be considered greater than other countries, considering their huge apportations to the whole mankind with their facts, innovations and legacy in the entire world. It would really take me months and months.

I am not surprised people here -this is really no forum of History and most of us are no historians- aren't conscious about that. Movies are always funnier than a good book of History, innit?

Let's watch Pirates of the Caribbean!!!

quite a eurocentric way of looking at it and quite a positive way too, considering all the terrible shit that happened as a result of european interference in the new world and pacific etc. It led to the devastation of indigenous communities across the americas, the triangle slave trade etc.. I wouldn't say no more darkness, the results were pretty fucking dark to everyone directly involved with the comparison of the few lucky merchants who got to exploit it all. honestly, tell the tens, if not hundreds of millions of people who died directly as a result of european involvment in the americas that there were no more darkness. but everything you said is accurate, the way you framed it was just really iffy.

One thing you should also take into account was that this thread was not, "who discovered the most" or "who influenced the last 523 years the most". They literally sent out an Italian-Genoese sailor with a largely Basque crew (Not sure about the Basquepart) in a few ships and said go to India. As great as the influence was, I think a lot of people don't find this so impressive for that reason. (This isn't my opinion, personally). People were worried Colombus was gonna fall off the world lol A distinction should be made between "dumb luck" and skilled-scientific advancement.

[Dylan]

Dont believe in everything you read bud.

How is that Russia overpowers Spain?.. Russia didn't discover america nor introduced many goods to europe as the Chocolate, the tomatoe the turkey, the potatoethe avocado and a wide array other goods from thier discoverings.

You eat your french fries and your pizza and pasta with tomatoe sauce thaks to spanish explorers, there's no such as "others could have done that" it was them, so you guys shoud start respecting those facts the same way we respect it was the USA the one who placed a man on the moon. why nobody says: " maybe the russians or the chinese could have eventually done that".

Except accidentally stumbling upon the Carribbean, thinking that they're going to India and half unsure whther they'll fall off the face of the world yet anymore and having the dumb luck of stumbling upon a whole new world doesn't require much. Inventing the phone wasn't a product of ignorance, it was a product of logic and scientific method and required great intelligence. That's a massive false equivalence. (I'm not dissing Spain personally, the whole world was ignorant of these things). Just because Spain influenced the world heavily in this respect doesn't mean they were more advanced. Spain has done way more advanced things then ACCIDENTALLY discover a new continent. The influence is great, the skill/knowledge behind the discovery, not so much.

Honestly, the guys in Spain who built the ships that were capable of crossing the Atlantic at all deserve more praise than Colombus and his crew for discovering it, or the Spanish Monarchy for ordering the voyage. Wooden ships that can sail across the Atlantic is impressive, accidentally finding the new world isn't, despite its massive influence.

It's also way more impressive that US placed a man on the moon. I mean first of all, one's the moon, one is the ocean. A straggler lost at sea could have discovered the fucking new world, not the moon. One requires wood that floats. One's a motherfucking rocketship.

Also, the US actually planned on it, using science and logistics to do so. They didn't just luckily stumble upon it.


This is just a simple case of. Landing on the moon is way more impressive and requires way more scientific advancement etc.
But "discovering" the new world was astronomically more influential and important to humanity overall.

[Dylan]

I find funny that Spanish Empire has been set in the 8th possition of that ranking of 10 top empires... being honest.

Or the fact that the Qing Dynasty is even mentioned in there. There really wasn't anything special about the Qing in comparison to the other Chinese dynasties. If anything, it should be the Tang.

[Armand_Duval]

Except accidentally stumbling upon the Carribbean, thinking that they're going to India and half unsure whther they'll fall off the face of the world yet anymore and having the dumb luck of stumbling upon a whole new world doesn't require much. Inventing the phone wasn't a product of ignorance, it was a product of logic and scientific method and required great intelligence. That's a massive false equivalence. (I'm not dissing Spain personally, the whole world was ignorant of these things). Just because Spain influenced the world heavily in this respect doesn't mean they were more advanced. Spain has done way more advanced things then ACCIDENTALLY discover a new continent. The influence is great, the skill/knowledge behind the discovery, not so much.

Honestly, the guys in Spain who built the ships that were capable of crossing the Atlantic at all deserve more praise than Colombus and his crew for discovering it, or the Spanish Monarchy for ordering the voyage. Wooden ships that can sail across the Atlantic is impressive, accidentally finding the new world isn't, despite its massive influence.

It's also way more impressive that US placed a man on the moon. I mean first of all, one's the moon, one is the ocean. A straggler lost at sea could have discovered the fucking new world, not the moon. One requires wood that floats. One's a motherfucking rocketship.

Also, the US actually planned on it, using science and logistics to do so. They didn't just luckily stumble upon it.


This is just a simple case of. Landing on the moon is way more impressive and requires way more scientific advancement etc.
But "discovering" the new world was astronomically more influential and important to humanity overall.

It looks like you want to take merit away from them.

They happened to "stumble" with the caribbean the same way Flemming just stumbled with penicilline and as many other scientist for instance did.

The USA has its merit but you cannot compare both in the way you're doing, you cannot canno compare pears with apples, the USA in the second half of the XX century counted on much more scientifical knowlege, they counted with the technology and the means to do what tbey did, while those ppl in those tiny wooden ships were actually ppl who had just gotten out of the middle ages, their technology to face the inmense ocean was rudimentary, The Catholic King and Queen just trusted the word of that man named Columbus.

In some way this represents more merit, those early traveles only counted on faith and a lot of guts.

Having embaked in those tiny vessels and go chasing a dream knowing virtually nothing about that sea has to my eyes more merit than having placed a man on the moon, taking into account the limitations of those ppl's times.

[Goujian]

French or Germans but I voted Germans

[Dylan]

It looks like you want to take merit away from them.

They happened to "stumble" with the caribbean the same way Flemming just stumbled with penicilline and as many other scientist for instance did.

The USA has its merit but you cannot compare both in the way you're doing, you cannot canno compare pears with apples, the USA in the second half of the XX century counted on much more scientifical knowlege, they counted with the technology and the means to do what tbey did, while those ppl in those tiny wooden ships were actually ppl who had just gotten out of the middle ages, their technology to face the inmense ocean was rudimentary, The Catholic King and Queen just trusted the word of that man named Columbus.

In some way this represents more merit, those early traveles only counted on faith and a lot of guts.

Having embaked in those tiny vessels and go chasing a dream knowing virtually nothing about that sea has to my eyes more merit than having placed a man on the moon, taking into account the limitations of those ppl's times.

do you honestly think think that accidentally finding the americas was more impressive then sending a rocket ship into space and landing on the fucking moon? I'm not trying to degrade Iberia, the influence immeasurably crazy, but like you said about penicillin, some things are more lucky than others.

And lets not forget the Vikings got their earlier and that people already lived there. The reason why the vikings deserve 0 recognition and the iberians do is because the vikings failed to make anything of it whereas the Spanish and Colombus did.

[Empecinado]

do you honestly think think that accidentally finding the americas was more impressive then sending a rocket ship into space and landing on the fucking moon? I'm not trying to degrade Iberia, the influence immeasurably crazy, but like you said about penicillin, some things are more lucky than others.

And lets not forget the Vikings got their earlier and that people already lived there. The reason why the vikings deserve 0 recognition and the iberians do is because the vikings failed to make anything of it whereas the Spanish and Colombus did.

You have to take into account the circumstances, time and relevance. Discover America was not just to come and say "hey, I discovered America".

At that time, building a boat capable of crossing a ocean and come back was a technological feat, with only canvas and wood they were able to create ships that could make such trip. But the discovery was much more than that. Not only was reached a new continent, but were established settlements into an absolutely hostile terrain in every way (enemies, unknown diseases, etc) that managed to maintain a direct communication with Iberia for centuries and even to build huge cities and big infraestructures, including universities. For the first time a global trade route was established, using for the first time naval convoys loaded with products like cocoa, tomatoes or potatoes. This was possible thanks to technology and a great strategy and organization.

That's the difference with Vikings. Vikings don't have much recognition because they did not cross an ocean but only did 500 km sealing (somewhat that was usual already in that time, sea trips of 500 km were already a normal thing) and founded some settlements that didn't prosperate, so the influence they had arriving to America was null. It didn't change the world, neither Europe nor even Scandinavia.

An about the difference with sending a rocket to the moon, there is several. It's argueable which required a biggest technological effort (considering epochs and technology development), either the Spanish landing on America or USA going to the moon. But what is clear is that the discovery of America had much more influence to the world than going to the moon.

[Dylan]

You have to take into account the circumstances, time and relevance. Discover America was not just to come and say "hey, I discovered America".

At that time, building a boat capable of crossing a ocean and come back was a technological feat, with only canvas and wood they were able to create ships that could make such trip. But the discovery was much more than that. Not only was reached a new continent, but were established settlements into an absolutely hostile terrain in every way (enemies, unknown diseases, etc) that managed to maintain a direct communication with Iberia for centuries and even to build huge cities and big infraestructures, including universities. For the first time a global trade route was established, using for the first time naval convoys loaded with products like cocoa, tomatoes or potatoes. This was possible thanks to technology and a great strategy and organization.

That's the difference with Vikings. Vikings don't have much recognition because they did not cross an ocean but only did 500 km sealing (somewhat that was usual already in that time, sea trips of 500 km were already a normal thing) and founded some settlements that didn't prosperate, so the influence they had arriving to America was null. It didn't change the world, neither Europe nor even Scandinavia.

An about the difference with sending a rocket to the moon, there is several. It's argueable which required a biggest technological effort (considering epochs and technology development), either the Spanish landing on America or USA going to the moon. But what is clear is that the discovery of America had much more influence to the world than going to the moon.

I already recognized the differences between the Vikings and the Iberians, but you wrote it eloquently/academically and I appreciate that. I also mentioned how the development of ships capable of getting there was truly where the credit was due.

While it is arguable, I really don't think there's much of a comparison. There already were ships that could sail in pretty tough waters prior to then, let alone ships at all. The US had to invent a whole new mode of transportation and get it to work in outer space and then the moon. You might assume that this is my view because I'm American, but I have 0 pride in the space race etc. or american achievments at all, since they are not my own. But I'm thankful that you are mature enough as to not discredit my opinions entirely on the basis of my official identity as several others have. Comparing rocket ships leaving out atmosphere, entering outer space, entering the moon's atmosphere, and successfully landing on it in my opinion is not comparable to building a few ships capable of making the trek across the Atlantic, and I'm sure the Spanish were not the only ones capable of this feat whereas only the Soviet Union and US could do this. The circumstances/context are everything in this, but i think its still no contest. But what was more amazing for the time is irrelevant. What is relevant is the influence and as we both have stated the importance of finding the new world is astronomically more important, just because the challenge in it, as large as it was, wasn't as great as the results, does not mean Spain should be discredited in any way for it.

Going to the moon was nothing more than bs propaganda. Finding the Americas changed everything. (Whether it was for the better or worse is arguable)

[Dylan]

People also really gotta remember this thread wasn't about who influenced the course of world history more. A few of you guys seemed to have become hung up on that one point.

[B01AB20]

I'm sure a better and more realistic thread about these silly competitions between countries would be :

What country will be sooner disappeared and vanished swept by elite's greed, cultural-marxism and multicultural maelstrom, Spain France or Germany?

the first will be the USA of course, but between Spain France or Germany I'm not sure. France and Germany have some advantage in this regard but also in these countries seem to exist some kind of popular-political reaction against it, but not in Spain.

[Empecinado]

I already recognized the differences between the Vikings and the Iberians, but you wrote it eloquently/academically and I appreciate that. I also mentioned how the development of ships capable of getting there was truly where the credit was due.

While it is arguable, I really don't think there's much of a comparison. There already were ships that could sail in pretty tough waters prior to then, let alone ships at all. The US had to invent a whole new mode of transportation and get it to work in outer space and then the moon. You might assume that this is my view because I'm American, but I have 0 pride in the space race etc. or american achievments at all, since they are not my own. But I'm thankful that you are mature enough as to not discredit my opinions entirely on the basis of my official identity as several others have. Comparing rocket ships leaving out atmosphere, entering outer space, entering the moon's atmosphere, and successfully landing on it in my opinion is not comparable to building a few ships capable of making the trek across the Atlantic, and I'm sure the Spanish were not the only ones capable of this feat whereas only the Soviet Union and US could do this. The circumstances/context are everything in this, but i think its still no contest. But what was more amazing for the time is irrelevant. What is relevant is the influence and as we both have stated the importance of finding the new world is astronomically more important, just because the challenge in it, as large as it was, wasn't as great as the results, does not mean Spain should be discredited in any way for it.



Going to the moon was nothing more than bs propaganda. Finding the Americas changed everything. (Whether it was for the better or worse is arguable)


Back these times only Spaniards and Portuguese were able to build a ship able to cross the Atlantic, the Caravel (a Portuguese invention). And nah, I don't take pride on the discovery of America, it was not me who went there.

[Gooding]

I vote France. I have no bias at all, except to consider the great achievements of the Kingdom of France and her children. Culturally, in terms of exploration and the dissemination of civilization throughout the world, I must vote the French as premier among the three. If Great Britain were listed, I might have voted differently.

[Leliana]

Iberian countries (Portugal and Spain) made know the world to the rest of the known world, spreading the western civilization, creating new trade routes, nearing people of the whole world, etc. etc.

Until the facts of the iberian countries the world was small. After their facts the world is as known as nowadays.

What both countries have made on their own in and for History of Mankind, no other countries have before made ever and till now never surpassed, at least by French, German and British, till perhaps the beginning of the space race, supported by several countries nowadays.

I voted for Iberian countries. Chauvinism, said someone? Please go first to school after stating nonsenses.

What Iberians often forget or deliberately ignore is that it wasn't Christoph Kolumbus who discovered America first. :rolleyes:

It's proven and accepted by scientists and historians worldwide that it were Germanic Vikings who discovered (Northern) America, after 'jumping' from Iceland to Greenland and then to America. They landed in Nearfoundland and had contact with some Native Americans there.

The honour has to go to Leif Eriksson and his crew. They called the land 'Vinland', built houses and spent the winter near the coast. They left for home next spring. His brother Thorwald returned to that place later, found the houses left but was killed by Native Americans after an argument or misunderstanding.

Then in 1006, the Icelander Thorfinn Karlsefni tried to colonize America with three ships and about 250 men and women. It worked in the first few months and they could establish friendly contacts with the Native tribes. Then there was a new argument, and most Vikings were killed after being outnumbered by Native American attackers. The few surviving and remaining Vikings spent two more years in Vinland until they set sail back to Greenland.

The last attempt to settle in America has been done by Freydis Eriksdottir, but inner-Viking arguments messed it up. :/

This story is backed up and was proven because in 1961, archaeologists and historians discovered the remains of that Viking settlement in 'L'Anse aux Meadows in' Newfoundland. It's on the exact spot that Leif Eriksson described.


Iberians can't claim the honor of discovering America. They were the first ones colonizing it because the Vikings were a bit 'clumsy' and never really serious in their attempts to set foot on American soil, but it doesn't matter: The Vikings discovered it, they set their feet on it, they built houses there, they spent some years there and they were the first Europeans to come in contact with Native American tribes.

Of course they didn't understand that they have discovered a new continent, but that happened to Kolumbus as well...he thought that he found a new way to India. Iberians landed in Southern America were there was more cultural advancement of the Native tribes and more wealth to achieve, and that was their advantage, profit and benefit.

It's high time that Iberians accept reality.

[Dylan]

Back these times only Spaniards and Portuguese were able to build a ship able to cross the Atlantic, the Caravel (a Portuguese invention). And nah, I don't take pride on the discovery of America, it was not me who went there.

I wasn't referring to you, you've been very mature throughout this thread. And you probably already knew this, but I wasn't referring to you when I said that the poll suggested a possible pattern of chauvinism.

Interesting to hear that only the Caravel was capable of this, I knew about this ship (from Civ V, nothing intellectual), but I wasn't aware of its historical significance.

[Dylan]

I vote France. I have no bias at all, except to consider the great achievements of the Kingdom of France and her children. Culturally, in terms of exploration and the dissemination of civilization throughout the world, I must vote the French as premier among the three. If Great Britain were listed, I might have voted differently.

I think its interesting how you list American locations for your ancestry. I've never seen that before.

[Dylan]

What Iberians often forget or deliberately ignore is that it wasn't Christoph Kolumbus who discovered America first. :rolleyes:

It's proven and accepted by scientists and historians worldwide that it were Germanic Vikings who discovered (Northern) America, after 'jumping' from Iceland to Greenland and then to America. They landed in Nearfoundland and had contact with some Native Americans there.

The honour has to go to Leif Eriksson and his crew. They called the land 'Vinland', built houses and spent the winter near the coast. They left for home next spring. His brother Thorwald returned to that place later, found the houses left but was killed by Native Americans after an argument or misunderstanding.

Then in 1006, the Icelander Thorfinn Karlsefni tried to colonize America with three ships and about 250 men and women. It worked in the first few months and they could establish friendly contacts with the Native tribes. Then there was a new argument, and most Vikings were killed after being outnumbered by Native American attackers. The few surviving and remaining Vikings spent two more years in Vinland until they set sail back to Greenland.

The last attempt to settle in America has been done by Freydis Eriksdottir, but inner-Viking arguments messed it up. :/

This story is backed up and was proven because in 1961, archaeologists and historians discovered the remains of that Viking settlement in 'L'Anse aux Meadows in' Newfoundland. It's on the exact spot that Leif Eriksson described.


Iberians can't claim the honor of discovering America. They were the first ones colonizing it because the Vikings were a bit 'clumsy' and never really serious in their attempts to set foot on American soil, but it doesn't matter: The Vikings discovered it, they set their feet on it, they built houses there, they spent some years there and they were the first Europeans to come in contact with Native American tribes.

Of course they didn't understand that they have discovered a new continent, but that happened to Kolumbus as well...he thought that he found a new way to India. Iberians landed in Southern America were there was more cultural advancement of the Native tribes and more wealth to achieve, and that was their advantage, profit and benefit.

It's high time that Iberians accept reality.

If it makes you feel any better, empecinado (an iberian) and myself (not an iberian) already recognized this. Theres no changing the opinion of the guy you're responding to. Look at his other comments lol

[Armand_Duval]

What Iberians often forget or deliberately ignore is that it wasn't Christoph Kolumbus who discovered America first. :rolleyes:

It's proven and accepted by scientists and historians worldwide that it were Germanic Vikings who discovered (Northern) America, after 'jumping' from Iceland to Greenland and then to America. They landed in Nearfoundland and had contact with some Native Americans there.

The honour has to go to Leif Eriksson and his crew. They called the land 'Vinland', built houses and spent the winter near the coast. They left for home next spring. His brother Thorwald returned to that place later, found the houses left but was killed by Native Americans after an argument or misunderstanding.

Then in 1006, the Icelander Thorfinn Karlsefni tried to colonize America with three ships and about 250 men and women. It worked in the first few months and they could establish friendly contacts with the Native tribes. Then there was a new argument, and most Vikings were killed after being outnumbered by Native American attackers. The few surviving and remaining Vikings spent two more years in Vinland until they set sail back to Greenland.

The last attempt to settle in America has been done by Freydis Eriksdottir, but inner-Viking arguments messed it up. :/

This story is backed up and was proven because in 1961, archaeologists and historians discovered the remains of that Viking settlement in 'L'Anse aux Meadows in' Newfoundland. It's on the exact spot that Leif Eriksson described.


Iberians can't claim the honor of discovering America. They were the first ones colonizing it because the Vikings were a bit 'clumsy' and never really serious in their attempts to set foot on American soil, but it doesn't matter: The Vikings discovered it, they set their feet on it, they built houses there, they spent some years there and they were the first Europeans to come in contact with Native American tribes.

Of course they didn't understand that they have discovered a new continent, but that happened to Kolumbus as well...he thought that he found a new way to India. Iberians landed in Southern America were there was more cultural advancement of the Native tribes and more wealth to achieve, and that was their advantage, profit and benefit.

It's high time that Iberians accept reality.

Some scholars say that also chinese arrived to america aswell

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies

The fact of the matter is that credit for tsuch discovery goes to Spain and Catholic Queen and King who sponsored Colombus voyage, and actually Spain changed the face of the world with it, fact that niether the Vikings nor the Chinese did.

Colombus was Genovese yes..... so?..... Von Braun and Oppenheimer were germans and they built the rocket for the USA to place a man on the moon too...the credit still goes to the USA.

[Dylan]

Some scholars say that also chinese arrived to america aswell

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies

The fact of the matter is that credit for tsuch discovery goes to Spain and Catholic Queen and King who sponsored Colombus voyage, and actually Spain changed the face of the world with it, fact that niether the Vikings nor the Chinese did.

Colombus was Genovese yes..... so?..... Von Braun and Oppenheimer were germans and they built the rocket for the USA to place a man on the moon too...the credit still goes to the USA.

Both Von Braun and Oppenheimer were American. Von Braun was a naturalized American citizen and Oppenheimer was born and raised in the US, he just has a German last name. But discrediting Spain on the basis of Colombus's nationaly is, I agree, stupid and useless.

[Neon Knight]

What Iberians often forget or deliberately ignore is that it wasn't Christoph Kolumbus who discovered America first. :rolleyes:

It's proven and accepted by scientists and historians worldwide that it were Germanic Vikings who discovered (Northern) America, after 'jumping' from Iceland to Greenland and then to America. They landed in Nearfoundland and had contact with some Native Americans there. . .Reminded me of this cool picture in a book I've got:

http://i.imgur.com/OzJEHAA.jpg


Upon reaching Vinland, their intended destination, they found the now famous grapes and self-sown wheat which the land was named for. They spent a very hard winter at this site, where they barely survived by fishing, hunting game inland, and gathering eggs on the island. The following summer they sailed to the island of Hop where they had the first peaceful interactions with the native people, whom they traded with. Karlsefni forbade his men to trade their swords and spears, so they mainly exchanged their red cloth for pelts. Afterwards they were able to properly describe the aboriginal inhabitants, saying: “They were short in height with threatening features and tangled hair on their heads. Their eyes were large and their cheeks broad.”

Shortly thereafter the Norsemen were attacked by natives who had been frightened by a bull that broke loose from their encampment. They were forced to retreat to an easily defensible location and engage their attackers; at the end of the battle two of his men had been slain, while "many of the natives" were killed. As with anywhere in this foreign land, Karlsefni and his men realized that “despite everything the land had to offer there, they would be under constant threat of attack from its prior inhabitants.”

After this adventure they returned to Greenland—their three-year excursion would be the longest-lasting known European colony in the New World until Columbus' voyages nearly 500 years later initiated full-scale colonization.

[Séamus]

I know the question excludes the British, but I'd say that the Germans are right next to them at the top of the podium. While Spain's Empire was undoubtedly impressive, it was still edged by Britain's, objectively speaking. In other areas, like scientific ingenuity, technological innovation, the quality of societal institutions, governance and law, sophistication of commerce, and overall civilizational success, the Germans and their Germanic cousins across the North Sea are unmatched. Germany has a slight edge over the British in engineering and architecture, and a clear edge over the Britons in the perseverance and commitment to work of ordinary folk. The British have a clear edge in inventions, development of government, fluidity of society, and military accomplishment.

Science & innovation:
1. Britain & Germany

Arts & culture:
1. France

Military accomplishment:
1. Britain

Thriftiness:
1. Germany

Philosophy:
1. Italy & Greece

[Cristiano viejo]

People here is truly ignorant. They ignore that the Iberians were part of the biggest event in the history of mankind as it was the discovery, conquest, colonization and settlement of a continent as America (and another routes to Asia, Africa and Oceania), which it changed the world in all its aspects and that was thanks to the technological advances of the time.

Of course none knows a shit about the Portuguese Escola de Sagres, which grouped the major technical and scientific personalities of its era. This was a time of many important discoveries: cartography was being refined with the use of newly devised instruments, such as an improved astrolabe and improved sundial, maps were regularly being updated and extended, and a revolutionary type of vessel known as the caravel was designed.

Where were French and Germans? people only see the last 200 years, but certainly few things have changed the world and have had a major global impact than the Age of the Discovery, and that is part of the greatness of the Iberians that French and Germans dont have.
Spain once ruled the world. French and Germans can not say the same. Only Romans and British compete with Iberians in this. Talking about Romans, they spent 7 years for conquer Gaul..
Someone dares to compare the Spanish empire (which lasted 400 years) with the French one (10 years) :picard1:

Yes, currently French and Germans stand out in some fields such as science, technology and militarily but it was not always so. Just people dont want to see it.

[Dylan]

People here is truly ignorant. They ignore that the Iberians were part of the biggest event in the history of mankind as it was the discovery, conquest, colonization and settlement of a continent as America (and another routes to Asia, Africa and Oceania), which it changed the world in all its aspects and that was thanks to the technological advances of the time.

Of course none knows a shit about the Portuguese Escola de Sagres, which grouped the major technical and scientific personalities of its era. This was a time of many important discoveries: cartography was being refined with the use of newly devised instruments, such as an improved astrolabe and improved sundial, maps were regularly being updated and extended, and a revolutionary type of vessel known as the caravel was designed.

Where were French and Germans? people only see the last 200 years, but certainly few things have changed the world and have had a major global impact than the Age of the Discovery, and that is part of the greatness of the Iberians that French and Germans dont have.
Spain once ruled the world. French and Germans can not say the same. Only Romans and British compete with Iberians in this. Talking about Romans, they spent 7 years for conquer Gaul..
Someone dares to compare the Spanish empire (which lasted 400 years) with the French one (10 years) :picard1:

Yes, currently French and Germans stand out in some fields such as science, technology and militarily but it was not always so. Just people dont want to see it.

I agree with the second paragraph, as for the first paragraph, I'm not one to decide what I think is the "biggest event in the history of mankind" and I don't really that is worth arguing about either. It's clearly up there, but ranking them in order is useless. Of course I'd have a difficult time thinking about what would rival that strictly in terms of influence/importance.

The escola de sagres only has a wikipedia language in 3 languages, (Portuguese, Catalan, and Spanish) which I think suggests its not as important as you stress. It's also listed as a "mitos" (feel free to correct this translation) myth on the portuguese wikipedia site, which brings further doubt.

Rome spent 7 years in Gaul because the Gauls were fierce as hell, france is big and took forever to cross (it took just as long to cross france in 1800 as it did during the invasions 2 weeks west --> east and 2 weeks north --> south and vice versa. They also didn't have weapons that were much more advanced than the Gauls. The Spanish conquered a much larger area in a shorter time span, but they also had the advantage of guns and fire arms. And no, guns/fire arms were not invented by the Spanish. The success of this invasion has more to do with that than it does with anything else. It's still a massive victory by the Spanish, but don't frame it like it was sheer iberian awesomness that made all that happen.

Neither Britain nor Spain have ruled the world, so no on that point. Britain ruled 22.63% of the world's land and spain 13.04% Similarly, France's colonial empire lasted officially speaking from 1534 to 1980, although in reality this was a few decades earlier. It comprised of more than 8% of the entire landmass of the world (comparable, but very clearly less than Spain). France had territory in Africa, North America, Middle East, East Asia, Southeast Asia, the Pacific, and Indian subcontinent. This lasted a lot more than 10 years.

So yes, I do dare to compare the two and I think any suggestion that the two are incomparable is either ignorant, biased, or exaggerated. Especially since most of Spain's empire consisted of jungle/desert.


Correction: The 10 year figure you got from the Napoleonic Wars. But that doesn't factor in France's colonial possessions. It's an unfair comparison. Also: By saying the Gauls were fierce as hell and France took a long time to cross, I am not saying that the Spanish didn't face fiercer resistance or have easier territory to deal with. Spain obviously faced a huge number of obstacles stemming from the territory as well as a result of the sheer distance of the Atlantic etc. I don't know how strong the resistance was they faced, but I assume it was incredible.

Another Addition, I think we should also note that Spain was actually a part of the 18th century French empire (for a short time of course). France was never part of Spain. My y-chromosome ancestor actually comes from someone who lived in what was part of Spain until they lost a war and Spanish territory was ceded to France in the treaty of the pyrennes. (Roussillon)

[Empecinado]

The Spanish conquered a much larger area in a shorter time span, but they also had the advantage of guns and fire arms. And no, guns/fire arms were not invented by the Spanish. The success of this invasion has more to do with that than it does with anything else. It's still a massive victory by the Spanish, but don't frame it like it was sheer iberian awesomness that made all that happen.


Fire guns played no role at all in the conquest of America.

A musket, the most effective weapon of the time had exactly 12 shots. Usually, no more than 2-8 shots were fired in a battle by professional soldiers...and none of the conquistadors were professional soldiers, but mercenaries, traders and adventurers. Hernán Cortés himself, who commanded the army, was a lawyer who had never participated in a battle before going to America. The musket had a range of only 50 meters.

What happened in Vietnam War with the M-16? The conditions of the jungle heat and humidity made it got stuck, got dirty and become useless. And were are talking about a assault rifle in the 20th century. The Yucatan has a heat and humidity similar to Vietnam, so if even the M-16 had trouble go figure what happened with a musket of the 16th century ... it failed over half of shots, and when the wearer had to cross a river or a lake all gunpowder got wet and become useless.

Also, Cortes had barely 20 fire guns among 500 men. In the best of cases, after a couple of months of war the muskets were useless. And without sulfur was impossible to manufacture gunpowder.

[Dylan]

Fire guns played no role at all in the conquest of America.

A musket, the most effective weapon of the time had exactly 12 shots. Usually, no more than 2-8 shots were fired in a battle by professional soldiers...and none of the conquistadors were professional soldiers, but mercenaries, traders and adventurers. Hernán Cortés himself, who commanded the army, was a lawyer who had never participated in a battle before going to America. The musket had a range of only 50 meters.

What happened in Vietnam War with the M-16? The conditions of the jungle heat and humidity made it got stuck, got dirty and become useless. And were are talking about a assault rifle in the 20th century. The Yucatan has a heat and humidity similar to Vietnam, so if even the M-16 had trouble go figure what happened with a musket of the 16th century ... it failed over half of shots, and when the wearer had to cross a river or a lake all gunpowder got wet and become useless.

Also, Cortes had barely 20 fire guns among 500 men. In the best of cases, after a couple of months of war the muskets were useless. And without sulfur was impossible to manufacture gunpowder.

Thanks for the info: definitely corrects the inaccurate assumptions i made a ton. I read a couple accounts a few years ago (translated accounts, I don't speak spanish or any other relevant language) and cannons, horses, and guns were mentioned (this is vague long-term memory so feel free to correct any possible inaccuracies) etc. Also what you say about the M-16 brings up a good point, but it was pretty damn effective in Vietnam despite the conditions.

[Ouistreham]

the Age of the Discovery, and that is part of the greatness of the Iberians that French and Germans dont have.
Someone dares to compare the Spanish empire (which lasted 400 years) with the French one (10 years) :picard1:
Yes, currently French and Germans stand out in some fields such as science, technology and militarily but it was not always so. Just people dont want to see it.
From the beginning, the Spanish Empire was a failure.
The leading Hispanic powers nowadays are Mexico and Brazil, who are mainly noticed for their capacity to export undesirable emigrants.

Russia, like Spain, did build an easy empire, in Siberia. But Siberia, unlike Hispanic America, is not a burden. It's actually the white man's last chance to ensure Europe will still be a relevant power in the future.

Now, since I'm French, I have to be honest and I feel it's my duty to be as unbiased and objective as possible.
My main points of interest in life are philosophy and music. And I cannot but admit that after W.A. Mozart and Immanuel Kant, the Germans have been leading in those fields. French philosophers have just been paraphrasing Hegel and Heidegger since then. Berlioz and Debussy were sometimes ahead of their German/Austrian colleagues, but by and large, from Ludwig Van to Hindemith, the Germans have set the pace.
(Brits and Spics are nowhere, just negligible footnotes.)
Add to that that my job is in industrial chemistry. And I know very well that in the 20-30's, the Germans invented all possible molecules. Synthetic rubber, pharmaceuticals, all plastics too.

So, if I had to give a vote, maybe mine would go to Germany perhaps.
Remember I'm French, and that for us intellectual honesty is paramount.

[Dylan]

From the beginning, the Spanish Empire was a failure.
The leading Hispanic powers nowadays are Mexico and Brazil, who are mainly noticed for their capacity to export undesirable emigrants.

Russia, like Spain, did build an easy empire, in Siberia. But Siberia, unlike Hispanic America, is not a burden. It's actually the white man's last chance to ensure Europe will still be a relevant power in the future.

Now, since I'm French, I have to be honest and I feel it's my duty to be as unbiased and objective as possible.
My main points of interest in life are philosophy and music. And I cannot but admit that after W.A. Mozart and Immanuel Kant, the Germans have been leading in those fields. French philosophers have just been paraphrasing Hegel and Heidegger since then. Berlioz and Debussy were sometimes ahead of their German/Austrian colleagues, but by and large, from Ludwig Van to Hindemith, the Germans have set the pace.
(Brits and Spics are nowhere, just negligible footnotes.)
Add to that that my job is in industrial chemistry. And I know very well that in the 20-30's, the Germans invented all possible molecules. Synthetic rubber, pharmaceuticals, all plastics too.

So, if I had to give a vote, maybe mine would go to Germany perhaps.
Remember I'm French, and that for us intellectual honesty is paramount.

I think this thread should be replaced with a new thread in which people order from best to not as good (since they were all good, it seems innaccurate to say worst in this case). In the new thread, people should rank each country/empire on specific things e.g. (technology, empire, culture, etc.) It seems that much of the arguments going on in this thread relate to people zooming in on one particular aspect of this stupidly broad question.

I also wouldn't say the Spanish Empire was a failure from the beginning. Nor would I say it was easy. Although the vast majority of its land was uninhabited useless desert and jungle. (But I'm not going to argue about this) Just my opinion for what its worth

[Gooding]

I think its interesting how you list American locations for your ancestry. I've never seen that before.

My family's histories in those locations are fairly old.. well, the histories of those families that produced me in those locations are fairly old.. Goodwins/ Goodins/ Goodings, Steinbrenners/ Stoneburners, Doves, Doonises/ Dennises in Virginia, Thorn(e)s in Maryland, Maegerts/ Maggards, Robertsons, Caudills and Cornetts in Kentucky, Bairds, Perkinses, Cecils, Lawsons and McDaniels/ McDonalds in Tennessee and Prejeans, Sigurs, Perrets, Pellerins, Armelins, Rommels/ Romes, von Arensbergs/ D'Arensbourgs, and Pecots in Louisiana. That's why I make so bold as to mention those areas in my ancestry. :)

[Armand_Duval]

From the beginning, the Spanish Empire was a failure.
The leading Hispanic powers nowadays are Mexico and Brazil, who are mainly noticed for their capacity to export undesirable emigrants.

Russia, like Spain, did build an easy empire, in Siberia. But Siberia, unlike Hispanic America, is not a burden. It's actually the white man's last chance to ensure Europe will still be a relevant power in the future.

Now, since I'm French, I have to be honest and I feel it's my duty to be as unbiased and objective as possible.
My main points of interest in life are philosophy and music. And I cannot but admit that after W.A. Mozart and Immanuel Kant, the Germans have been leading in those fields. French philosophers have just been paraphrasing Hegel and Heidegger since then. Berlioz and Debussy were sometimes ahead of their German/Austrian colleagues, but by and large, from Ludwig Van to Hindemith, the Germans have set the pace.
(Brits and Spics are nowhere, just negligible footnotes.)
Add to that that my job is in industrial chemistry. And I know very well that in the 20-30's, the Germans invented all possible molecules. Synthetic rubber, pharmaceuticals, all plastics too.

So, if I had to give a vote, maybe mine would go to Germany perhaps.
Remember I'm French, and that for us intellectual honesty is paramount.

Intelectual? mmmmffffhahahaha don't make me laugh you're just a disrespectful and ignorant prick.

Firstly, Brazil isn't a fomer Spanish colony.

Intelectual, Sire, make some reading about what it was the jewel of the Spanish Crown.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Spain

"Undesirable immigrants", you don't even know what you're talking about, you "intelectual" Sire!... Hahahahaha...

I respect France but you should keep quiet finding foult at ex colonies, look at the toilet the french left in Haiti for Christ sake!!!.

[Gooding]

Edit. St. Domingue/ Haiti was a pivotal jumping board for Pecot side of my family. The ones who were not executed by a raging mob of disgruntled blacks had to flee for Louisiana. That was my ancestress Rosalie Prejean and her children, including my ancestor, Charles Pecot.

[Empecinado]

Thanks for the info: definitely corrects the inaccurate assumptions i made a ton. I read a couple accounts a few years ago (translated accounts, I don't speak spanish or any other relevant language) and cannons, horses, and guns were mentioned (this is vague long-term memory so feel free to correct any possible inaccuracies) etc. Also what you say about the M-16 brings up a good point, but it was pretty damn effective in Vietnam despite the conditions.

Cortes army (500 conquistadors) had exactly 5 horses, 20 muskets and 10 small cannons. There is a myth that Indians were afraid of horses, but it's a lie. When for the first time a jaguar warrior Aztec saw a horse inmediately beheaded it with a macana.

Cannons were irrelevant too, besides being more dangerous for the soldiers that had to load it than for the enemy, were only useful to bomb ships, very tight formations or stone fortresses, at European style. Moreover, the cannons were left in the city of Tenochtitlan, after this they didn't have cannons anymore.