Neanderthals created first musical instruments

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Many people today think of Neanderthals, ancient cave-dwelling hominids, as brutish creatures. However, recent discoveries suggest that Neanderthal society was much more sophisticated than previously thought. One of those discoveries is the oldest musical instrument ever found: a rudimentary type of flute.

Neanderthals inhabited much of Europe, northern Africa, and western Asia from about 100,000 to 35,000 years ago. Their name derives from the discovery in 1856 of skeletal remains in a cave in Germany's Neanderthal Valley.

Neanderthals had short, stocky, powerful bodies. However, they walked upright and had multifunctional hands that were similar to those of modern humans. Their brain size actually equaled or surpassed that of modern people. Neanderthals used fire, made stone tools and wooden hunting spears, buried their dead, and tried to heal their sick or injured. Most scholars believe that Neanderthals used language and practiced some type of religion.

In 1995 researchers excavating a cave in Slovenia found stone implements characteristic of Neanderthals. Amid those artifacts was a piece of a juvenile cave bear's thighbone that contains four artificial holes in a straight line and resembles a flute. Neanderthals probably used a carnivore tooth as a punch to produce the holes, which go through only one side of the shaft (like a modern flute). The ends of the hollow bone artifact, which is between four and five inches long, are broken off, possibly gnawed off by cave bears or other animals.

Similar flutes, made from the bones of various animals, have been discovered at Homo sapiens (human) sites dating from 35,000 to 22,000 years ago. The cave-bear flute, however, is about 82,000 to 43,000 years old and is clearly a Neanderthal creation. It is the oldest firmly dated musical instrument.

Using a reconstruction of the bone flute, researchers have been able to blow into the end of the instrument (playing it much like a modern recorder, a member of the flute family) and finger the holes in various ways to produce musical tones. The pitches and the intervals between them do not correspond to any modern music system, but they do reflect a basic feature of modern music--the use of technology to construct instruments that produce sounds for some thought-out purpose.

But what was that purpose? Neanderthals may have played the bone flute to enjoy the sounds, to attract mates, to lure birds or other animals during hunting, or to accompany religious ceremonies (the "singing bone" representing the voice and therefore the mystical essence of one of the animals--i.e., natural forces--on whose goodwill the Neanderthals depended for continued life).

The instrument itself, of course, cannot convey the motivation behind its construction. However, the bone flute does reveal humanlike behavior and intelligence among the Neanderthals.

It was probably actually used to call animals and should be taken as yet more evidence they had domesticated herd animals.

[Black Wolf]

It was probably actually used to call animals and should be taken as yet more evidence they had domesticated herd animals.

Neanderthals did not domesticate any herd animals.

[Rædwald]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHy9FOblt7Y

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Neanderthals did not domesticate and herd animals.

:rolleyes:

That's a very dumb statement to make, because you can't ever know this is the case. The only evidence you can have of this, is lack of evidence.

But we do have evidence. We have what I mentioned already and much more. There are even signs they domesticated the horse. Such as horses dead all in a row, as if they had been on a hitching post and then diedin a massive storm.

For example until very recently horses were thought to be domesticted only from 2k BC or so. Now there is proof they are domesticated 12k years or more due to burials of horses standing upright and evidence of use of bits. The evidence for neanderthal horse domestication is weaker, not outright proof, but it still exists. And it's not one thing but many. And it's MUCH harder to get neanderthal finds than it is to find archaeology from 10k-15k years ago. MUCH. Having all this evidence at MOST sites really says a lot.

Anyway I don't care to argue it especially after you made the dumb statements about I2 y-dna that show you didn't even bother to read WHAT I POSTED. I don't claim it's certain but the evidence keeps piling up. The tracks at the cave entrance and the flutes are especially telling. It makes me laugh someone would even try to paint this as anything but evidence of herding. A herd animal will NEVER go into a cave on its own, ever.

Anyway I will just put you on ignore, you are getting tiresome.

[Black Wolf]

:rolleyes:

That's a very dumb statement to make, because you can't ever know this is the case. The only evidence you can have of this, is lack of evidence.

But we do have evidence. We have what I mentioned already and much more. There are even signs they domesticated the horse. Such as horses dead all in a row, as if they had been on a hitching post and then diedin a massive storm.

For example until very recently horses were thought to be domesticted only from 2k BC or so. Now there is proof they are domesticated 12k years or more due to burials of horses standing upright and evidence of use of bits. The evidence for neanderthal horse domestication is weaker, not outright proof, but it still exists. And it's not one thing but many. And it's MUCH harder to get neanderthal finds than it is to find archaeology from 10k-15k years ago. MUCH. Having all this evidence at MOST sites really says a lot.

Anyway I don't care to argue it especially after you made the dumb statements about I2 y-dna that show you didn't even bother to read WHAT I POSTED. I don't claim it's certain but the evidence keeps piling up. The tracks at the cave entrance and the flutes are especially telling. It makes me laugh someone would even try to paint this as anything but evidence of herding. A herd animal will NEVER go into a cave on its own, ever.

Anyway I will just put you on ignore, you are getting tiresome.

You certainly are a deviant when it comes to scientific theories and what not. Could just be trolling though. Take care. :)

[Dombra]

I have theory on Neanderthals and music: that they were the first listeners. Humans and hominids have probably been humming whenever they felt like it and later sung in groups and for work. Neanderthals on the other hand may have held the first conciertos, music for the sake of music sake as opposed to dance, community or work. Compare the classical music of Europe where you sit and listen to the musical culture of SSAfrica where dance is a must and only real purpose of music. The only art music in Africa came from Europeans and Muslims, civilizations more influenced by the deeper thoughts of the Neanderthal

[de Burgh II]

I have theory on Neanderthals and music: that they were the first listeners. Humans and hominids have probably been humming whenever they felt like it and later sung in groups and for work. Neanderthals on the other hand may have held the first conciertos, music for the sake of music sake as opposed to dance, community or work. Compare the classical music of Europe where you sit and listen to the musical culture of SSAfrica where dance is a must and only real purpose of music. The only art music in Africa came from Europeans and Muslims, civilizations more influenced by the deeper thoughts of the Neanderthal

Thats actually a valid point you make. If you think about it classical music revolved around sitting there and enjoy the essence of the masterpiece that was created. Whereas nowadays it revolves around entertainment value where everyone just get drunk or under the influence of something just for the sake of being a belligerent. After all theses years classical is still around which is the complete opposite of music nowadays which becomes a distant memory since its nothing more than auto-tuned garbage. Something we should thank the neanderthals for.

[Rudel]

I have theory on Neanderthals and music: that they were the first listeners. Humans and hominids have probably been humming whenever they felt like it and later sung in groups and for work. Neanderthals on the other hand may have held the first conciertos, music for the sake of music sake as opposed to dance, community or work. Compare the classical music of Europe where you sit and listen to the musical culture of SSAfrica where dance is a must and only real purpose of music. The only art music in Africa came from Europeans and Muslims, civilizations more influenced by the deeper thoughts of the Neanderthal
Complete nonsense. The historical purpose of music in Europe and Africa is exactly the same, religious, narrative and dancing.

[Ragnarök]

Read this and saw 'Neanderthals created first musical.'

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Read this and saw 'Neanderthals created first musical.'

Gay neanderthal cowboys singing the blues.

[Kazimiera]

I'm skeptical of this because every year on 1 April (since 1997) they have posted an article regarding the "Neanderthal Flute". Prisoner, do me a favour and check the date that this article was published on. I'm curious.

I think this is the original article from 1997 which has been amended every year.

Professor Todkopf (Totenkopf = Skull and Crossbones)

From the University of HINDENBERG???? :lol:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/fool97.html


The most significant discovery in Oscar Todkopf's career was entirely serendipitous. Last April, the Hindenburg University paleontologist was hiking in Germany's Neander Valley when he tripped over something on a trail. Some quick digging exposed the obstacle as the tip of a mastodon tusk. But it wasn't until a few weeks later when the entire tusk was unearthed and dated that Todkopf realized the magnitude of his find. The tusk, he believes, was a Neanderthal musical instrument. Todkopf calls it a Neanderthal "tuba." Like the bone flute discovered in Slovenia last year, the 50,000-year-old tuba predates the presence of anatomically modern humans in Europe.

Sixteen carefully aligned holes dot the surface of the six-foot-long tusk. "I think a Neanderthal master craftsman must have used a stone awl to hollow out the tusk and to punch the holes," says Todkopf. The number of holes, he says, suggests that Neanderthals used an octave scale.

Todkopf also uncovered the remains of what appear to be at least three other instruments. One resembles a bagpipe. Although the "bag" part disintegrated long ago, it left a protein "stain" in the rock. Analysis suggests it was probably fashioned from the bladder of some large animal, perhaps a woolly rhinoceros, and was at one time attached to some long, thin bones found arrayed around the impression. Todkopf also found a delicate bone "triangle" and a collection of hollowed-out bones of various lengths.

"I think they were part of an instrument similar to a xylophone--I like to call it a xylobone," says Todkopf. "But a colleague thinks Neanderthals hung the bones at cave entrances like big wind chimes. As for the bagpipes, well, it doesn't surprise me that we have Neanderthals to thank for them." Todkopf believes they played the pipes with their noses. The bones found near the bladder stain are tipped with wooden plugs with hollow centers. The plugs, says Todkopf, fit perfectly into the sinus cavities of a Neanderthal skull found at the site. "These fellows had nasal cavities as big as beer halls," he says.

While digging out the instruments, Todkopf uncovered the entrance to a cave and another major find: the first example of Neanderthal cave painting. Fittingly, the paintings show musicians alongside colored dots in groups of three, which Todkopf suspects are musical notation. "Maybe what we have here with the triplet notation is the origin of oompah-pah!"

Todkopf theorizes that the Neanderthals' fondness for music may explain why they vanished some 30,000 years ago. "Maybe their music scared away all the game. They would have produced an awful racket oompah-pahing all over the place. The Neander Valley was alive with the sound of music."

[Kazimiera]

31 March 2015 (ready for 1 April) - http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/03/150331-neanderthals-music-oldest-instrument-bones-flutes-archaeology-science/

1 April 2015 - http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/2/4/140022

1 April 2015 - http://www.realclearscience.com/2015/04/01/the_truth_behind_neanderthal_039bone_flutes039_264 066.html?utm_medium=widget&utm_campaign=rss

[Prisoner Of Ice]

31 March 2015 (ready for 1 April) - http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/03/150331-neanderthals-music-oldest-instrument-bones-flutes-archaeology-science/

1 April 2015 - http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/2/4/140022

1 April 2015 - http://www.realclearscience.com/2015/04/01/the_truth_behind_neanderthal_039bone_flutes039_264 066.html?utm_medium=widget&utm_campaign=rss

If it's a 'joke' it's a really poor one, not funny at all. Like the one about finding robert the bruce's head and doing DNA tests. An april fools joke should not be so plausible.

I will check it out though because I was pointed to it by a source that's usually reliable.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divje_Babe_flute

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Fl%C3%BBte_pal%C3%A9olithique_%28mus%C3%A9e_nation al_de_Slov%C3%A9nie%2C_Ljubljana%29_%289420310527% 29.jpg

It's in a museum and there's hundreds of pictures and diagrams and even papers about it.

That's about as legit as could be.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The joke you linked to is about a tuba, not a flute. It references the flute to lend credibility. It also reads like a joke whereas the wikipedia page and many other sources treat the flute seriously.

It's mousterian, so it's neanderthal.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Also it's humorous that they wiki page puts it at 43k years old. It's really up to 83k years old. Socialjusticepedia - can't even admit prehistoric white men invented anything.

[Faklon]

Of course is flute.
What else could it be?
Absolute balance with the universe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoL640Flwi0) like uber Neanderthals.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://www.earthtouchnews.com/all-articles/2015/april/02/neanderthal-flutes-were-actually-snacks-for-ice-age-hyenas/



The Divje Babe flute is believed to be one of the earliest examples of a musical instrument. Carved from the femur of a juvenile cave bear some 43,000 years ago, the bone fragment contains circular punctures believed to be finger holes, forming a primitive flute. Amazing, right? Well, maybe not. New research shows that the ‘flute’ is actually just a bone that’s been gnawed on by a hyena (it’s unlikely that the hyena used it as a flute).


Things like this are just so pathetic. Just look at those two perfectly round holes. You're telling me a hyena managed that? I can't believe how low these scum will sink to try and defend their fantasy version of black powah prehistory.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Of course is flute.
What else could it be?
Absolute balance with the universe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoL640Flwi0) like uber Neanderthals.

Guys like finlay have been mocked many times, but everything he has talked about has been proven true. Even rope, makeup, medicinal herbs, tea, the list goes on and on.

[Dombra]

Complete nonsense. The historical purpose of music in Europe and Africa is exactly the same, religious, narrative and dancing.

I did not say Europe lack dance, narrative or religious music, dimwit. Those purposes are ancient hominid ones that are a fundamental base, it is the way that they evolved and the mentality that made them so fundamentally different. Compare a primitive African chant, complete with masks and jumping, to St Matthew's Passion by Bach. Compare booty shaking with some conga accompaniment to an aristocratic ball. Stories in musical form became into ballet, opera, etc. All these expressions and crafts came to be because of the appreciation of music itself. Same why visual arts did not exist in Africa outside of religious purpose, with a few exceptions of obvious foreign influence

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Please - no more talk of terrifying African hoodoo. I am getting a stomach ache.

[Rudel]

I did not say Europe lack dance, narrative or religious music, dimwit. Those purposes are ancient hominid ones that are a fundamental base, it is the way that they evolved and the mentality that made them so fundamentally different. Compare a primitive African chant, complete with masks and jumping, to St Matthew's Passion by Bach. Compare booty shaking with some conga accompaniment to an aristocratic ball. Stories in musical form became into ballet, opera, etc. All these expressions and crafts came to be because of the appreciation of music itself. Same why visual arts did not exist in Africa outside of religious purpose, with a few exceptions of obvious foreign influence
It's nonsense because savant music as such is an innovation that barely happened yesterday, relative to the known history of music.
No sensible person would suggest that it emerged because of the sudden resurgence of the Neanderthal soul, about 27 600 after its disappearance.

[Kazimiera]

http://www.earthtouchnews.com/all-articles/2015/april/02/neanderthal-flutes-were-actually-snacks-for-ice-age-hyenas/

Things like this are just so pathetic. Just look at those two perfectly round holes. You're telling me a hyena managed that? I can't believe how low these scum will sink to try and defend their fantasy version of black powah prehistory.

Hyenas in Slovenia??

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It's nonsense because savant music as such is an innovation that barely happened yesterday, relative to the known history of music.
No sensible person would suggest that it emerged because of the sudden resurgence of the Neanderthal soul, about 27 600 after its disappearance.

And you know this because...?

We only have sheet music going back to roman times and don't even know how it works. Could have been millions of mozarts in prehistory.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Hyenas in Slovenia??

I believe there used to be. Lions also until recently.