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Äike
06-21-2010, 06:06 PM
Is Estonia part of the Nordic countries? (http://www.nordvux.net/object/23101/isestoniapartofthenordiccountries.htm)


Estonian people believe that their value attitudes are similar to those of the Nordic countries. This belief is firmly rooted in our shared history.

Estonia has been a part of the Danish and Swedish Kingdom and until today there is a small Swedish minority living in Western Estonia and on the island of Ormsö (the Estonia’s Aland). Increasingly more Estonians learn Swedish, Norwegian, Danish and Finnish and the Nordic countries have always been quite popular here.
However the data of the international organization The World Value Survey (WVS) speak another language. The map of values (countries listed according to value systems) designed by WVS, positions Estonia next to Russia and far from the Nordic Countries. Why is the Estonian value system more similar to Russian than to the Nordic countries?
Patrik Göransson, priest of Estonian St. Michael’s Swedish Parish in Tallinn believes that the Estonians nevertheless belong to the Nordic nations. Göransson was born and grew up in Sweden, graduated from the Gothenburg University and has worked for the past ten years in Estonia. He now speaks fluent Estonian and meets many Estonians through his work, thus he can easily compare the value attitudes of Nordic and Baltic nations. Why does Estonia belong to the Nordic countries?

The cold nations

"Swedish and Estonian people are not very communicative, making acquaintances and friends takes long here. In this sense I as a Swede feel at home here in Estonia. Too much talk is also tiring for me” Göransson sais. Both Estonia and the Nordic countries are secular and only few people believe in God. The survey of the WVS confirms this supposition. The Swedes and the Estonians are the most secular nations in the world, according to WVS.
Secondly both Estonians and Swedes can be described as „cold” nations, Göransson adds. For example they often ask the priest how much they are supposed to donate to the church. They are good at calculating and want to be sure not to pay too much or too little. Göransson has also worked in the Eastern part of Estonia where Russians live and he noticed that Russian people never asked how much they ought to donate – they simply gave what they could.

Patient nations

But on the other hand Göransson agrees with the World Value Survey’s conclusion that by certain value attitudes Estonians are more similar to Russians than to the Nordic nations. As in Russia so in Estonia people are very patient and forbearing, much more patient than in Sweden, Göransson has noticed. Estonians and Russians do not protest easily against injustice, they prefer to wait and see.
Estonians and Russians like to complain. Their society is not well-functioning, but history has taught them that citizens cannot do anything about it. Göransson jokes that nowadays when it rains Estonians and Russians prefer not to wear a raincoat and this is maybe because they actually prefer to complain about the bad weather.
Thirdly Estonian and Russian people are not very friendly and do not like to smile too much. But during the past five years this has changed a bit in the service domain, for example customers feel that they are actually welcome in the shopping centres now. But in some older shops Nordic people still feel that they are disturbing the shop assistants.
Middle-aged Estonians and Russians in Estonia are the most forbearing, complaining and unfriendly, Göransson points out. He supposes they are the alumni of Soviet time. Young and old Estonians born in independent Estonia are more similar to Nordic people by their value attitudes and behaviour.

esaima
06-21-2010, 06:08 PM
Is Estonia part of the Nordic countries?
No.

Äike
06-21-2010, 06:09 PM
No.

Says the Homo Sovieticus.

W. R.
06-21-2010, 06:56 PM
Says the Homo Sovieticus.Looks very much like an undeserved insult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus). :no no

Äike
06-21-2010, 06:59 PM
Looks very much like an undeserved insult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus). :no no

Well, he's a "successful" result of Soviet governing, he thinks that he's more similar to Eastern-Europeans(Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, Belorussians etc) than to our Nordic kin(Finns, Swedes etc.)

Absinthe
06-21-2010, 07:03 PM
Is Finland part of the Nordic countries? Then yes.

Or are the Nordic countries strictly Germanic? Then no.

Depends on how you define it. And in the bottom line, who cares? :wink

W. R.
06-21-2010, 07:05 PM
Well, he's a "successful" result of Soviet governing, he thinks that he's more similar to Eastern-Europeans(Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, Belorussians etc) than to our Nordic kin(Finns, Swedes etc.)If it was objectively wrong, then in that case esäimä would be simply mistaken. If he simply felt closer to Eastern Europeans, then so what? No reason to call anyone 'Homo Sovieticus' just for that.

Homo Sovieticus is characterized by:

Indifference to the results of his labour (as expressed in the saying "They pretend they are paying us, and we pretend we are working"), and lack of initiative.
Indifference to common property and petty theft from the workplace, both for personal use and for profit. A line from a popular song, "Everything belongs to kolkhoz, everything belongs to me" ("все теперь колхозное, все теперь мое"), meaning that people on collective farms treasured all common property as their own, was sometimes used ironically to refer to instances of petty theft. The Law of Spikelets, which made stealing from the collective punishable by ten years’ imprisonment, was a failed attempt to break this attitude.
Isolation from world culture, created by the Soviet Union's restrictions on travel abroad and strict censorship of information in the media (as well as the abundance of propaganda). The intent was to insulate the Soviet people from Western influence; instead, "exotic" Western culture became more interesting precisely because it was forbidden. Soviet officials called this fascination "Western idolatry" (идолопоклонничество перед Западом).
Obedience or passive acceptance of everything that government imposes on them (see authoritarianism). Avoidance of taking any individual responsibility on anything.

Breedingvariety
06-21-2010, 07:58 PM
No it isn't. And where's the poll?

Äike
06-21-2010, 08:01 PM
No it isn't. And where's the poll?

I wasn't asking a question, I was posting an article.

Btw, do you think that Lithuanians are culturally closer to Estonians then Finns or Swedes? I would appreciate your Lithuanian viewpoint :). Sadly, I have never met a Lithuanian, but I do have dozens of Finnish and some Swedish friends.

esaima
06-21-2010, 08:25 PM
If it was objectively wrong, then in that case esäimä would be simply mistaken. If he simply felt closer to Eastern Europeans, then so what? No reason to call anyone 'Homo Sovieticus' just for that.

Homo Sovieticus is characterized by:

Well, i don´t feel me closer to Russians than to Finns.I simply feel that things in this world are not so black and white.The life has some more nuances.
The fact that Estonia belonged politically 50 years into East influences us. I think Estonia is the most Nordic among those East-European countries but I simply don´t believe that there is so rigid borderline between Estonia and the other former Eastern bloc countries.
Is the childish impassioned wish to be considered Nordic caused by Soviet influences?I believe it is.

Äike
06-21-2010, 08:31 PM
Well, i don´t feel me closer to Russians than to Finns.I simply feel that things in this world are not so black and white.The life has some more nuances.
The fact that Estonia belonged politically 50 years into East influences us. I think Estonia is the most Nordic among those East-European countries but I simply don´t believe that there is so rigid borderline between Estonia and the other former Eastern bloc countries.
Is the childish impassioned wish to be considered Nordic caused by Soviet influences?I believe it is.

Recent poll (http://www.postimees.ee/) at the most popular Estonian newssite: 3% of Estonians consider Estonia to be Eastern European :D

Those 3% and esäimä live in a fantasy world.

esaima
06-21-2010, 08:34 PM
Recent poll (http://www.postimees.ee/) at the most popular Estonian newssite: 3% of Estonians consider Estonia to be Eastern European :D

Those 3% and esäimä live in a fantasy world.

And I have never said that Estonia is East European.Read my old posts if you want.

Äike
06-21-2010, 08:39 PM
And I have never said that Estonia is East European.Read my old posts if you want.


I think Estonia is the most Nordic among those Eastern-European countries

;)

Eldritch
06-22-2010, 01:57 PM
Is Finland part of the Nordic countries? Then yes.

Or are the Nordic countries strictly Germanic? Then no.

Depends on how you define it. And in the bottom line, who cares? :wink

I hope this thread doesn't turn into another shit tornado.

Basically, Finland is Nordic, not Scandinavian. If that makes Estonia Nordic too, fine.

I'd prefer to let people self-define. Not entirely unproblematic, but better than a bunch of know-nothings butting their heads together on the net endlessly with no discernible progress. :p

Absinthe
06-22-2010, 02:03 PM
What I meant to say (hoping it wasn't taken the wrong way), is what difference does it actually make?

Estonia is Estonia, it is a nice country (even though I've only stayed for a day but hoping to stay more in the future) and Nordic or not it is what it is. I don't see how those definitions make any difference outside the internet. Most people haven't even heard the term "nordic" in the context that we are discussing it on the forum.