Lebanese Muslims, not Christians, are genetically more European influenced.

[Sikeliot]

On Eurogenes K13 and K15, the first Lebanese match for southern Italians, Greeks, Jews is ALWAYS Lebanese Muslim, not Christian or Druze. And on the Eurogenes averages, there is a small (~5%) Atlantic type element that is lacking in the others.

Norman genes maybe?

But this is contrary to our normal intuition that the Christians have more European.

[Dylan]

wow that's surprising. Why would Lebanese Christians be more MENA than them?

[Sikeliot]

wow that's surprising. Why would Lebanese Christians be more MENA than them?

Same reason in Sicily, the people with higher North Euro also tend to have higher than average SW Asian and North African. Crusaders and Normans and whatnot in Lebanon would have been more likely to rape the Muslim women than marry the Christians.

[Dylan]

Same reason in Sicily, the people with higher North Euro also tend to have higher than average SW Asian and North African. Crusaders and Normans and whatnot in Lebanon would have been more likely to rape the Muslim women than marry the Christians.

that's very sad, but also very telling and logical. interesting.

[Dylan]

lol Kingsman is pissed off by these results lol

[Sikeliot]

that's very sad, but also very telling and logical. interesting.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19c_bZjUV_RouKyGyLHmMDw57WwAVabXFJOaso_gcuRE/edit#gid=1872836177

North Sea + Atlantic + Baltic + East Euro (some of which is trace amounts native to the area). Druze branched off the Muslim community, btw.

Muslims = 11.36
Christians = 6.12
Druze = 10.4


lol Kingsman is pissed off by these results lol


It's Casandrinos, who has been permanently banned for harassment.

[Shah-Jehan]

I doubt there is much difference between the two groups and the rape logic is funny TBH considering in Arab society, illegitimate birth is not appreciated.

[albosomething]

thank Albanian mercenaries for this.

[Skipper]

I doubt there is much difference between the two groups and the rape logic is funny TBH considering in Arab society, illegitimate birth is not appreciated.

The Crusaders inflicted untold of atrocities upon Muslims. For example, it is said that they killed so many that Jerusalem was ankle deep in Muslim blood. Hell, they actually ate Muslim babies. Considering these circumstances, rape doesn't seem nearly that bad.

[Berlin88]

The Crusaders inflicted untold of atrocities upon Muslims. For example, it is said that they killed so many that Jerusalem was ankle deep in Muslim blood. Hell, they actually ate Muslim babies. Considering these circumstances, rape doesn't seem nearly that bad.

That's your morality, not theirs, and certainly (thankfully) not mine. To speak a few words about Christian morality, Jerusalem was also ankle deep in Jewish blood, considering that entire groups of innocent Jews were either put to the sword or burned alive in synagogues by the Franks with zero remorse (both Crusaders and pious Christian pilgrims alike). https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Ke9f7n4Xs_QC&pg=PA94&dq=crusaders,+blood+jerusalem&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fm8tVYOFCJLfate-gdgB&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=crusaders%2C%20blood%20jerusalem&f=false
The Christians had a fetish for man's best friend too, but were driven to madness and cannibalism purely by hunger than through acts of intentional sadism, and their targets were usually dead people, so necrophiliacs is a better term.

During the Siege of Maarat, Albert of Aix remarked that "the Christians did not shrink from eating not only killed Turks or Saracens, but even dogs..." ("Nam Christiani non solum Turcos vel Sarracenos occisos, verum etiam canes arreptos (...)")

Consider that during the infamous Siege of Xerigordon, German troops pitted against the Turks of the Seljuk Sultanate of Rûm were in such distress following massive casualties and failed relief efforts, that the resourceful Christian Crusaders literally bled their own horses and asses to drink their blood, and urinated into each other's cupped hands to satisfy their thirst pangs! Considering circumstances which often compelled the Christians of Constantinople to either hide in the forests and mountains, or to throw themselves headlong into the sea when faced with the might of the Turks and eventually Salahuddin himself, drinking and urinating into each other's cupped hands when cornered doesn't seem nearly as bad. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PSOSJWG3E2MC&pg=PA145&dq=Our+people+were+in+such+distress+from+thirst+th at+they+bled+their+horses+and+asses+and+drank+the+ blood%3B+others+let+their+girdles+and+handkerchief s+down+into+the+cistern+and+squeezed+out+the+water +from+them+into+their+mouths%3B+some+urinated+into +one+another%27s+hollowed+hands+and+drank%3B+and+o thers+dug+up+the+moist+ground+and+lay+down+on+thei r+backs+and+spread+the+earth+over+their+breasts+to +relieve+the+excessive+dryness+of+thirst.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cWUtVZHlNIbLaJzrgpgJ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Our%20people%20were%20in%20such%20distress%20fro m%20thirst%20that%20they%20bled%20their%20horses%2 0and%20asses%20and%20drank%20the%20blood%3B%20othe rs%20let%20their%20girdles%20and%20handkerchiefs%2 0down%20into%20the%20cistern%20and%20squeezed%20ou t%20the%20water%20from%20them%20into%20their%20mou ths%3B%20some%20urinated%20into%20one%20another's% 20hollowed%20hands%20and%20drank%3B%20and%20others %20dug%20up%20the%20moist%20ground%20and%20lay%20d own%20on%20their%20backs%20and%20spread%20the%20ea rth%20over%20their%20breasts%20to%20relieve%20the% 20excessive%20dryness%20of%20thirst.&f=false Crusaders converted to Islam in droves in the face of their defeat and effectively became slaves of the Seljuks or were taken captive to Persia, Khorasan, Antioch and Aleppo. Many converted slaves in other similar incidents (many prominent ones were Circassian and of Balkan origin: Albanian, Greek, South Slavic) would ingratiate themselves into the military elite class of Mamluks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamluk who ironically fought back the Crusaders from the Levant, and declared Islam victorious.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PSOSJWG3E2MC&pg=PA145&dq=Our+people+were+in+such+distress+from+thirst+th at+they+bled+their+horses+and+asses+and+drank+the+ blood%3B+others+let+their+girdles+and+handkerchief s+down+into+the+cistern+and+squeezed+out+the+water +from+them+into+their+mouths%3B+some+urinated+into +one+another%27s+hollowed+hands+and+drank%3B+and+o thers+dug+up+the+moist+ground+and+lay+down+on+thei r+backs+and+spread+the+earth+over+their+breasts+to +relieve+the+excessive+dryness+of+thirst.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cWUtVZHlNIbLaJzrgpgJ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Our%20people%20were%20in%20such%20distress%20fro m%20thirst%20that%20they%20bled%20their%20horses%2 0and%20asses%20and%20drank%20the%20blood%3B%20othe rs%20let%20their%20girdles%20and%20handkerchiefs%2 0down%20into%20the%20cistern%20and%20squeezed%20ou t%20the%20water%20from%20them%20into%20their%20mou ths%3B%20some%20urinated%20into%20one%20another's% 20hollowed%20hands%20and%20drank%3B%20and%20others %20dug%20up%20the%20moist%20ground%20and%20lay%20d own%20on%20their%20backs%20and%20spread%20the%20ea rth%20over%20their%20breasts%20to%20relieve%20the% 20excessive%20dryness%20of%20thirst.&f=false The European affinities of the Lebanese muslims vs. Christians, might well be from the purchase of European slave women, or possibly Arab male-Circassian female intermarriages such as seen in refugees from Amman and Syria. Circassian women were esteemed for their beauty, traditionally regarded as the prized women of the Ottoman seraglio https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=NpmF8Cu3Lo8C&pg=PA328&dq=circassian+women,+lebanon&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m3gtVaS-DojXapnTgZAN&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=circassian%20women%2C%20lebanon&f=false

I concur with Shah-jehan, a Muslim woman would prefer being murdered to being raped by savages in an honour-based society, just so that she wouldn't have to suffer the moral repugnance of war rape, and the added shame of carrying the illegitimate fetus of an enemy. Rajputs practiced a similar system of female jauhar in the face of defeat which had its origins in internecine warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jauhar (p.s. in Islam, illegitimate children born of war rape - between an infidel male and a Muslim woman - would be excommunicated and lose their ancestral heritage not assume Muslim lineages inherited from the mother - since Arab ancestry follows patrilocality - unless the children converted to Islam, which was not likely given the nature of the Crusades; in contemporary medieval societies, if the Muslim woman publicised her rape ordeal, she could be stoned to death, considered ethnically, culturally, religiously defiled).

Besides, even if rape was the modus operandi it was narrated by Fulcher de Chartres, the French chronicler of the First Crusade, that the moral policy of the Crusaders was favoured to kill both the males and females through systematic genocide.

[Berlin88]

I doubt there is much difference between the two groups and the rape logic is funny TBH considering in Arab society, illegitimate birth is not appreciated.

pro-Christian argument being that since the Crusaders were the victors, Muslim women had no choice but to succumb to their barbarous ways. That too by the holy Tafurs, a "particularly fanatical group of destitute Crusaders" who were made legend for committing unforgiveable crimes against humanity - has comic value, considering several modern European scholars cast doubt on Raymond Aguilers' chronicles of exaggerated gore and cannibalism at the Siege of Maarat (other chroniclers of the Crusade make no mention of this incident, sporadic events are in the original context of famine and continued high food prices), and then neutral Western sources accuse them of making fables to bolster their own reputation in order to scare the Muslims into not fighting them! This small band of violent, semi-naked, barefoot barbarians from the north, covered in filth, mud and sores who mainly feasted on human corpses, immune to disease on earth, is supposed to have left a significant genetic impact on Muslim women ... but they don't know about it yet. :picard1: After suffering the injustice and humiliation of war rape, these barbarian Tafurs (who Crusader nobility were described wouldn't dare dream of approaching in a crowd without a sword), supposedly let their victims go free to allow them to have their mixed babies and what remained of the Muslim community, was indifferent and supposedly accepted these pregnant, husband-less women back into normal society again (or as the French say, poulain - as if that wasn't insult enough).

"The killing was never as massive or as indiscriminate as certain medieval historians have alleged, or as many modern historians have chosen to accept. Exaggeration was due to misinformation, or a desire to praise the crusaders, or to assert the power of the papacy, or to captivate an audience."

"It is tempting to deduce that they were accused of this crime because they were poor warriors, even peasants, despised and feared by the more noble warriors who regarded them of being capable of any depravity. In other words, the accusation reflects fear and distrust between classes rather than what actually happened."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hTPC09XoKs0C&pg=PT79&dq=crusaders,+tafurs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Sp8tVdzfM8zhaqjlgfgE&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=crusaders%2C%20tafurs&f=false

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=y8wqQSwopc0C&pg=PA6&dq=crusaders,+tafurs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Sp8tVdzfM8zhaqjlgfgE&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=crusaders%2C%20tafurs&f=false

[Prisoner Of Ice]

You have the direction of influece backwards.

[LightHouse89]

The Crusaders inflicted untold of atrocities upon Muslims. For example, it is said that they killed so many that Jerusalem was ankle deep in Muslim blood. Hell, they actually ate Muslim babies. Considering these circumstances, rape doesn't seem nearly that bad.

:rolleyes:

[Sikeliot]

I mean, these are genetic facts. There is no disputing it unless someone has genetic evidence to the contrary.

[Highlands]

I wouldn't say "European" influenced but they seem to have more Indo-European influence (higher West Asian and more Iranic-shifted).I get Lebanese Druze on calculators not Muslim, since they are a pure East Med population and my WA is low.

[Sikeliot]

I wouldn't say "European" influenced but they seem to have more Indo-European influence (higher West Asian and more Iranic-shifted).I get Lebanese Druze on calculators not Muslim, since they are a pure East Med population and my WA is low.

I'm unsure what you'd get but for Sicilians, Lebanese Muslim, then Christian, then Druze are the ones that appear.

[King Solomon]

I think it's because they are more Iranian shifted hence the indo European influence. It makes sense since Levantine Muslims must have absorbed elements from Persia, ottomans and Kurds( these populations are all high in European components ). The Druze are not pure East med they have large amounts of the west Asian component.

[King Solomon]

I wouldn't say "European" influenced but they seem to have more Indo-European influence (higher West Asian and more Iranic-shifted).I get Lebanese Druze on calculators not Muslim, since they are a pure East Med population and my WA is low.

There's very little European influence in the levant, any influence would be recent. Druze are not pure East meds but they have kept themselves isolated from outsiders hence why Muslims etc are more shifted to other regions.

[King Solomon]

Not to mention the one of the two founders of Druze was from khorasan( Western Afghanistan Persia). There's also Kurdish influence in Lebanon as we'll as connections with Persia ( Shia Muslims).

Btw the Druze are a branch from Shia Muslims so their ancestors were Muslims, don't get confused

[Highlands]

I'm unsure what you'd get but for Sicilians, Lebanese Muslim, then Christian, then Druze are the ones that appear.

Ah ok, for me it's the opposite.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2hmlb9u.png

[Highlands]

There's very little European influence in the levant, any influence would be recent. Druze are not pure East meds but they have kept themselves isolated from outsiders hence why Muslims etc are more shifted to other regions.

All Levantines are pred. Mediterranean with some Arabian and Indo-European influences.

[King Solomon]

All Levantines are pred. Mediterranean with some Arabian and Indo-European influences.

Thank you but please you don't know what your on about

[Highlands]

Thank you but please you don't know what your on about

?

[King Solomon]

?

Your generalising a whole population it's not that straightforward

[tdot]

Lebanese Muslim here.

Classification thread: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...where-I-m-from

Admix results:

Eurogenes K13:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 39.02
2 West_Asian 17.09
3 West_Med 13.15
4 Red_Sea 12.24
5 North_Atlantic 6.07
6 Northeast_African 4.32
7 South_Asian 2.87
8 Sub-Saharan 2.85
9 Siberian 1.26
10 East_Asian 0.69
11 Baltic 0.44


MDLP World 22:

# Population Percent
1 West-Asian 30.07
2 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 27.63
3 Near_East 27.03
4 Sub-Saharian 5.97
5 North-East-European 4.19
6 Indian 1.87
7 East-Siberean 1.06
8 Indo-Iranian 0.97
9 Austronesian 0.46
10 North-Siberean 0.46
11 Pygmy 0.29