Kosovo: Disinherited women | Focus on Europe

[silver_surfer]

Published on 9 Apr 2015
Women in Kosovo often fail to receive their inheritance. Albanian cultural traditions dating back to the Middle Ages, known as "Kanun", state that only men can own property. Kanun has long been officially obsolete. Yet many women find they have to go to court to fight for their inheritance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ6qZ-6Li18

[Pjeter Pan]

And what's the problem?women get married, why give your property and money to her husband.

[StormBringer]

And what's the problem?women get married, why give your property and money to her husband.

That's the common reasoning around here as well, you build your house(s) for your son(s), he inherits it, girls get married to someone else's son, and voila, unless they're lesbian, then you have a problem xD

[Hithaeglir]

And what's the problem?women get married, why give your property and money to her husband.

She may just want to keep it for herself and use the inheritance for her own well being.

[Vukodav]

That's the common reasoning around here as well, you build your house(s) for your son(s), he inherits it, girls get married to someone else's son, and voila, unless they're lesbian, then you have a problem xD

yeah, same here. but if sister wants peace of the land, all brothers give it to her.
It is really rare thing though. Most of the females I know are fine with our custom.

[RandoBloom]

Greedy bitches. Give them land and houses so they can give it to her husband. Better to not have them than have them when they are raised like that

[Stefan_Dusan]

but if sister wants peace of the land, all brothers give it to her.


While I never seen woman in my family ask for land, I doubt the brothers would give up land earmarked for them to their sisters. I know I wouldn't, and I have 3 sisters.

[Vukodav]

While I never seen woman in my family ask for land, I doubt the brothers would give up land earmarked for them to their sisters. I know I wouldn't, and I have 3 sisters.

I would, if that is necessary. Family matters to me more than some customs TBH.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I would, if that is necessary. Family matters to me more than some customs TBH.

The sister has her husband's property, not mine. If she doesn't want to marry, or she wants the property so she can be 'independent' and choose the husband she wants, then she can have better luck in next life but not with my property.

[Herr Abubu]

These women want to have the cake and eat it, too. Men and women shall follow traditional law in Kosovo; Westerners can enjoy their pederasty, egalitarianism and degeneracy without trying to bring us into their fold.

[Stefan_Dusan]

These women want to have the cake and eat it, too. Men and women shall follow traditional law in Kosovo; Westerners can enjoy their pederasty, egalitarianism and degeneracy without trying to bring us into their fold.

She wants this property because she wants to mess around and either marry man from bottom family with no property or combine this property with her future husband's. I was not born yesterday.

[alb0zfinest]

While I never seen woman in my family ask for land, I doubt the brothers would give up land earmarked for them to their sisters. I know I wouldn't, and I have 3 sisters.

I don't really see anything wrong with that. Most people in the balkans have alot of property (at least from what I know in Montenegro), and actually more than they will need. Why not give some to your own sister (this is not some random stranger we are talking about)?

Yes i get she may marry, but if her husband has no land, are you really just going to make it that sort of everyone on their own world, when you are infact disregarding the fact that you got some help (your father gave you land) and she didn't.. Where when she goes to her husband she is of no concern to you anymore? This is blood, something irreplaceable, land you can always get more of.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Yes i get she may marry, but if her husband has no land, are you really just going to make it a sort of survival of the fittest world. Where when she goes to her husband she is of no concern to you anymore? This is blood, something irreplaceable, land you can always get more of.

I've said this before, and I will say again, I don't consider a female relation to me to be of the same 'blood' that only applies for men. For example, if I have only daughters, all my property will go to my cousin's, father's side, oldest male kid.

If they want property, better marry a man with property. I'm not easily enthused by them claiming they love the poor boy because he looks good, talks good and makes them laugh. If they want to make such mistakes, they won't get my property to make it with.

[Dun93]

99% of women in Kosovo don't ask for inheritance , only some spoiled biyatches who you can count in fingers .

Kanun ftw

[Vukodav]

The sister has her husband's property, not mine. If she doesn't want to marry, or she wants the property so she can be 'independent' and choose the husband she wants, then she can have better luck in next life but not with my property.

I don't know what is your custom about it, but our women choose husband they want.
As albofinest said, we already have more property than we need, why not giving a piece of it to our sisters if that would make their life easier.
Montenegrin fathers make sure that all of their children live good, at least if they are able to do so.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I don't know what is your custom about it, but our women choose husband they want.
As albofinest said, we already have more property than we need, why not giving a piece of it to our sisters if that would make their life easier.
Montenegrin fathers make sure that all of their children live good, at least if they are able to do so.

If she wants to be spinster, she can stay on my land and take care of the house, and kids to make my wife's life easier. But in no way, will that land go to her name. To me suggesting this is equivalent to you suggesting men walk in skirts and women in jeans.

[Vukodav]

If she wants to be spinster, she can stay on my land and take care of the house, and kids to make my wife's life easier. But in no way, will that land go to her name. To me suggesting this is equivalent to you suggesting men walk in skirts and women in jeans.

well, its not technicaly your property if you did not earned it. so, why bother?

[Stefan_Dusan]

well, its not technicaly your property if you did not earned it. so, why bother?

What do you mean? If property goes into my name, and then sister asks for some? I think that was your original statement, father passes property to brothers, brothers are nice and give some small to sisters.

In that case, it's my property. In other case, father can choose how he wants to do it, in my case, I got everything.

[Skerdilaid]

I don't really see anything wrong with that. Most people in the balkans have alot of property (at least from what I know in Montenegro), and actually more than they will need. Why not give some to your own sister (this is not some random stranger we are talking about)?

Yes i get she may marry, but if her husband has no land, are you really just going to make it that sort of everyone on their own world, when you are infact disregarding the fact that you got some help (your father gave you land) and she didn't.. Where when she goes to her husband she is of no concern to you anymore? This is blood, something irreplaceable, land you can always get more of.

This would mean that she could and would marry someone from far or perhaps a Gypo and they would be implanted on your ancestral property, meaning they would deluded and weaken your paternal line. There is a reason why such laws existed on our traditions. I don't have a sister, but If I had one in such a position, I would give her the house to live only if she chose not to be married. If she wanted to be married then I would give her some help, but never a property that I would inherit from my father.

[Vukodav]

What do you mean? If property goes into my name, and then sister asks for some? I think that was your original statement, father passes property to brothers, brothers are nice and give some small to sisters.

In that case, it's my property. In other case, father can choose how he wants to do it, in my case, I got everything.

I was actualy thinking on many possible scenarios. But primarly if a sister for example is married for some poor guy. IMO it is the duty of her brothers to help them in any way they can.
A peace of land to plant some crops or build a house is at least they can do.

[RandoBloom]

I was actualy thinking on many possible scenarios. But primarly if a sister for example is married for some poor guy. IMO it is the duty of her brothers to help them in any way they can.
A peace of land to plant some crops or build a house is at least they can do.

Its her fault she married poor. The fact that she did that shows that she doesnt care for consequenes since she knows her brothers will bail her out and clean her shit up

[Stefan_Dusan]

I was actualy thinking on many possible scenarios. But primarly if a sister for example is married for some poor guy. IMO it is the duty of her brothers to help them in any way they can.
A peace of land to plant some crops or build a house is at least they can do.

She will never marry poor unless she's handicapped or she doesn't listen to her brothers and or father. If she marries on her whim some poor man she wants, ignoring the will of her brothers and father, then she has her outcome and can enjoy it.

[Vukodav]

Honestly, you guys should not boost around how more family oriented are we than Western Europeans,
if you have such opinion regarding your sisters well—being.
I only have one sister and she is more important to me than any peace of the clay me and my brother own.
She can make mistakes and do whatever she wants, I will always be there to support her.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Honestly, you guys should not boost around how more family oriented are we than Western Europeans,
if you have such opinion regarding your sisters well—being.
I only have one sister and she is more important to me than any peace of the clay me and my brother own.
She can make mistakes and do whatever she wants, I will always be there to support her.

Would you feel same if your sister marries gypsy or someone of low upbringing? Someone from trash family which is equivalent to gypsy?

[Vukodav]

Would you feel same if your sister marries gypsy or someone of low upbringing? Someone from trash family which is equivalent to gypsy?

well, knowing my sister I am 100% sure she would never marrie a gypsie. And I don't know a single Montenegrin family that lives in similar conditions as gypsies

[Stefan_Dusan]

well, knowing my sister I am 100% sure she would never marrie a gypsie. And I don't know a single Montenegrin family that lives in similar conditions as gypsies

It's hypothetical question, as all of these are hypothetical. For example, all my sister's are married. Never even thought to ask me for my inheritance, but if they did that would be response. I'm just curious how you'd react to such revolting example.

[Mraz]

That's really unfair, I don't understand how some people would accept their wife and daughter to become homeless while your house goes to your brother...

[TheGoldenSon]

Albanians are just cool like that, if you don't mind me saying. Trough history they placed Kanun above sharia law (during the Ottoman era) and above civil law (which is heavily inspired by Kanun) during their current "Western" era.

[TheGoldenSon]

While I never seen woman in my family ask for land, I doubt the brothers would give up land earmarked for them to their sisters. I know I wouldn't, and I have 3 sisters.

Something tells me you are from Kosovo.

[Skerdilaid]

That's really unfair, I don't understand how some people would accept their wife and daughter to become homeless while your house goes to your brother...

They don't have husband's and neither sons; automatically their property gets inherited by the closest male kin. So no one is accepting their "wifes-daughters" to be homeless. If they wanted to live in the property as they were, no one would object, but she wants to place the property in her name so she can get married and pass the property to her future children, which is quite obvious.

[Mraz]

They don't have husband's and neither sons, automatically their property gets inherited by the closest male kin. So no one is accepting their "wifes-daughters" to be homeless. If they wanted to live in the property as they were, no one would object, but she wants to place the property in her name so she can get married and pass the property to her future children, which is quite obvious.

It should be her house, if it belonged to her father and he is dead. What's the problem if she get married and passes the house to her children?

[Skerdilaid]

It should be her house, if it belonged to her father and he is dead. What's the problem if she get married and passes the house to her children?

The problem is our traditional customary laws. Laws that preserved our ethnicity and culture to this day. Males from other Clans/cities can't inherit other Clans land, very simple concept, hence why females are not entitled to inherit. Of course you as non Albanian can't grasp such concept, and also I don't expect you to understand it either.

[Era]

In Albania women are equal to men when inheriting property.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

In Albania women are equal to men when inheriting property.

According to state laws Kosova has it too, but we are talking about traditional laws which are better accustomed for our society which also keeps traditional values intact.

[Vullkan]

Well if she wants she can sue you in court and take the building by law.Even if you do not let her by force you can never sell the property or leave it to your kids unless she signs renouncing the rights of property.Thats reality.

[Era]

According to state laws Kosova has it too, but we are talking about traditional laws which are better accustomed for our society which also keeps traditional values intact.

That's your opinion. I don't know the exact extent of the law how was it in the past in Albania but I know the well-off families gave away their daughter with quite a lot of dowry ( money and property), I know for a fact from my relatives. So tradition respected equality too.

[Vullkan]

A state can not function by spoken laws because they can be abused and misinterpreted.The property is a great plague for today Albania i dare to say the primary reason that halts development .I dont mind if there are traditional laws but they should be written in detail.Today laws in Albania are just copy paste of different European laws. There has not been a single study to make a law according to Albanian interests.The reason is that the so called people in charge of doing that are illiterate as slickers.

As for the division in equal parts between women and men i am against that .My personal opinion is that no one either man or women are entitled to anything in this world.

One solution is either make a law of a forced testament when the father or mother decides to divide property according to his or her judgment to who deserves it the most.

There are strong men but also strong women who have helped their parents raise their property .There are also weak women and weak men who does not deserve anything.

The laws can be changed if they are considered obsolete.Those who think that laws are part of traditions are greatly mistaken.That will make them no different than arab pigs .

Tung.

[Pjeter Pan]

Well if she wants she can sue you in court and take the building by law.Even if you do not let her by force you can never sell the property or leave it to your kids unless she signs renouncing the rights of property.Thats reality.

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[Skerdilaid]

In Albania women are equal to men when inheriting property.

Communism has whipped out quite a bit of the old traditions within Albania. However, these traditions though have been preserved on the Northern part of the country. In Gheg lands the only way a women could have inherited property was if she declared to be "Virgjeresh" (sworn virgin), simply meaning they decided not to get married. The governments of both countries today, however, are very much westernised, and as you can see in the video she won the case in court. But, which Albanian, within their right mind, that holds government job would even attempt to seize such property and hand it over to her ?

I think she very well knows what her choices are but is seeking attention through media, simply.

[iNird]

My grandfather (father side) left his property to his 3 sons and my father never took a cut of it since it became too much of a hassle with his two other brothers. He bought his own land and built his own house.

My grandmother (mother side) inherited land from his father because he had no son and I guess he did not pass it down to another male in his family. When she passed away, the males on my mother's side took the land and sold it from what I understood even though my grandmother wished for this particular parcel to be given to the women. I guess they could of sued or made a bigger deal of what happened but it's over now.

Personally I don't care too much of this inheritance stuff and would rather build my own fortune and buy my own land. I have been independent from my parents financially since the age of 16. I wouldn't fight my siblings for my parents inheritance and I would split whatever they left with my sister and brothers. Although I understand the situation is not the same for people in the Balkans and not everyone has the monies to buy their own land and the roles are a bit different.

[Jehan]

The problem is our traditional customary laws. Laws that preserved our ethnicity and culture to this day. Males from other Clans/cities can't inherit other Clans land, very simple concept, hence why females are not entitled to inherit. Of course you as non Albanian can't grasp such concept, and also I don't expect you to understand it either.

Does Clan still play a role in albanian society? Otherwise there isn't any reason to keep this law.

[Herr Abubu]

That's really unfair, I don't understand how some people would accept their wife and daughter to become homeless while your house goes to your brother...

That is not at all what happens. Why speak of things you clearly have no insight on?

[Dun93]

That's really unfair, I don't understand how some people would accept their wife and daughter to become homeless while your house goes to your brother...

The wife has the rights to stay with all the kids there until she dies , but a daughter can never be the owner if she decides to get married
ask before you know

[Skerdilaid]

Does Clan still play a role in albanian society? Otherwise there isn't any reason to keep this law.

Not really. There is still memory of them, family ties are quite strong. I don't see though how this is related to our historical Clans or what role thy play. This has to do with governing your household and inheritance traditions.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

OMG sexis.

Men with no financial stability can't get married. Inheritance is not there for buying tea cozies and nice shoes, it's there so that you can help take care of your legacy.

Anyway it should be whatever the one dying wants. Not what thecourts say. Since I gave her a ton of money my mom had put me as the main beneficiary when she goes. Years of crying and moaning by my sister and now finally she changed it back.

[Mraz]

That is not at all what happens. Why speak of things you clearly have no insight on?

Albanians are confirming here that a daughter shouldn't inherit her father so I don't see why "it's not what happens", while it does at least in the video.

[LightHouse89]

These women want to have the cake and eat it, too. Men and women shall follow traditional law in Kosovo; Westerners can enjoy their pederasty, egalitarianism and degeneracy without trying to bring us into their fold.

the world needs more liberalism.

[Skerdilaid]

Albanians are confirming here that a daughter shouldn't inherit her father so I don't see why "it's not what happens", while it does at least in the video.

You stated that a husband would let her daughter and wife be homeless, which is far from what we are discussing here. Inheritance comes into play when the "husband" in question dies and leaves no male heirs, then the women of the house, specifically the mother lives in that house until she dies. The daughter can do the same, but only if she is not married. The moment she gets married, that means she has to move to her husbands house, which then automatically the house and property is passed down to the next male kin of the "husband", in this case the uncle. No one kicks them out.

[Era]

Communism has whipped out quite a bit of the old traditions within Albania. However, these traditions though have been preserved on the Northern part of the country. In Gheg lands the only way a women could have inherited property was if she declared to be "Virgjeresh" (sworn virgin), simply meaning they decided not to get married..

When you say gheg lands you are talking about highlanders who barely had any properties outside their houses and some land for food consumption. I'm talking the rest of Albania before communism, gheg lands included. Let me give you an example, when King Zog was engaged first to Verlaci's daughter (the biggest landowner in Albania, from Elbasan) she had quite a bit of properties from her father as part of her dowry, that's why Zog wanted her, and left eventually when he became powerful enough on his own.

[Skerdilaid]

When you say gheg lands you are talking about highlanders who barely had any properties outside their houses and some land for food consumption. I'm talking the rest of Albania before communism, gheg lands included. Let me give you an example, when King Zog was engaged first to Verlaci's daughter (the biggest landowner in Albania, from Elbasan) she had quite a bit of properties from her father as part of her dowry, that's why Zog wanted her, and left eventually when he became powerful enough on his own.

Central Albania is not considered "Gheg", neither in tradition or in any other aspect, strictly speaking. When I speak of Ghegs, Kruja and what comes North of it is what I mean; North Albania, Kosova, South Montenegro and part of Western Macedonia basically.

[Jehan]

Not really. There is still memory of them, family ties are quite strong. I don't see though how this is related to our historical Clans or what role thy play. This has to do with governing your household and inheritance traditions.

I don't get you. Why do you ask in what it's related to the historical clan? Isn't what you said?


Males from other Clans/cities can't inherit other Clans land, very simple concept, hence why females are not entitled to inherit. Of course you as non Albanian can't grasp such concept, and also I don't expect you to understand it either.

[Era]

Central Albania is not considered "Gheg", neither in tradition or in any other aspect, strictly speaking. When I speak of Ghegs, Kruja and what comes North of it is what I mean; North Albania, Kosova, South Montenegro and part of Western Macedonia basically.

lol

Everything north of Shkumbin is gheg regardless of personal opinions of some people here. Mat included where Zog was from.

[Skerdilaid]

I don't get you. Why do you ask in what it's related to the historical clan? Isn't what you said?

"Clan" meaning family, and in that case I used it as in someone not related to you paternally. Isn't that what the definition of the Clan is?

[kuqezi]

When you say gheg lands you are talking about highlanders who barely had any properties outside their houses and some land for food consumption. I'm talking the rest of Albania before communism, gheg lands included. Let me give you an example, when King Zog was engaged first to Verlaci's daughter (the biggest landowner in Albania, from Elbasan) she had quite a bit of properties from her father as part of her dowry, that's why Zog wanted her, and left eventually when he became powerful enough on his own.

Lol in Gheg lands most prominent part of the dowery (after the bride was bought lol) was a bullet:

Property rights also involved women, who were regarded as such. The Kanun specifically calls women "a sack for carrying things" (Alb. “grueja âsht shakull për me bajtë”). Whether the sack refers to the hard physical labour women performed, such as carrying wood, or to the womb and childbirth, I do not know. At any rate, women had very few rights in northern Albanian society. Their only advantage was that they were not subject to feuding. One could shoot any male relative of a murderer but not his wife, daughter or mother. This meant that women could play an unofficial role in mediating between the two sides, but also that they had to do all the farming and herding work outdoors because the men could not leave home. Women were at any rate considered property: firstly of their fathers who could sell them in marriage to the best buyer, secondly of their husbands, who had the right to kill them if they disobeyed, and thirdly, upon the death of the husband, of their sons. Particularly disgusting from a modern perspective was the tradition of the "bullet wrapped in straw". This was given by the father to the bridegroom among the other wedding gifts and implied that the groom now had the right to shoot and kill his bride if she disobeyed him and that he would have the approval of her parents to do so.

http://www.elsie.de/pdf/articles/A2012KanunLeiden.pdf

[Skerdilaid]

lol

Everything north of Shkumbin is gheg regardless of personal opinions of some people here. Mat included where Zog was from.

Traditionally they differ from regions I mentioned, but yes, in dialect or linguistically they are Gheg. Families you mentioned were part of the elite during Ottoman Empire, so they owned lots of land, and were by no means traditional.

[Era]

Traditionally they differ from regions I mentioned, but yes, in dialect or linguistically they are Gheg. Families you mentioned were part of the elite during Ottoman Empire, so they owned lots of land, and were by no means traditional.

The connection was a pretty loose one. By that time (beginning of last century) they were west oriented by education (the majority was western European educated) and by commerce. I know people who built their fortune by doing commerce with Venice for example 1900-1930. And I'm sensing what you consider traditional excludes the cities, right? What about Shkodra? Cause you'll go back to what I said , only highlanders are ghegs and let's call it a day ;)

[The Illyrian Warrior]

That's your opinion. I don't know the exact extent of the law how was it in the past in Albania but I know the well-off families gave away their daughter with quite a lot of dowry ( money and property), I know for a fact from my relatives. So tradition respected equality too.

Nowadays depends family from family perhaps the families you talk have had only daughter/s and no son to inherit the wealth or property, however if family is traditional has both son and daughter, the wealth automatically goes to son since son as in most culture carry the legacy of the family whereas daughter/s go in another family thus when talking more on pragmatical sense, to me that was best possible solution (not perfect but the best) for eventual disagreement who might follow latter on.

As in beginning this matter now is solved differently even amongst Albanian families, some leave to authority and solve the matter according to state laws differently from tradition hence sharing property equally despite problem this might cause since brother-in-law due marriage has a hand on wealth without being part of family also his/her eventually children inheriting property of former family of the daughter which is absurd to me and might create imbalance in the future.

[Skerdilaid]

The connection was a pretty loose one. By that time (beginning of last century) they were west oriented by education (the majority was western European educated) and by commerce. I know people who built their fortune by doing commerce with Venice for example 1900-1930. And I'm sensing what you consider traditional excludes the cities, right? What about Shkodra? Cause you'll go back to what I said , only highlanders are ghegs and let's call it a day ;)

I was speaking of "Traditional Ghegs", if you haven't noticed, and yes lets call it a day because I don't consider Shkodra Gheg in the sense I was speaking. Neither do I consider Prishtina or Prizren, for example :p

[Era]

Nowadays depends family from family perhaps the families you talk have had only daughter/s and no son to inherit the wealth or property, however if family is traditional has both son and daughter, the wealth automatically goes to son since son as in most culture carry the legacy of the family whereas daughter/s go in another family thus when talking more on pragmatical sense, to me that was best possible solution (not perfect but the best) for eventual disagreement who might follow latter on.

As in beginning this matter now is solved differently even amongst Albanian families, some leave to authority and solve the matter according to state laws differently from tradition hence sharing property equally despite problem this might cause since brother-in-law due marriage has a hand on wealth without being part of family also his/her eventually children inheriting property of former family of the daughter which is absurd to me and might create imbalance in the future.

That's certainly not the case in Albania. A lot of people got back some properties after the communism fell and they were split even between sons and daughters equally. That has been the case for all the people that I know.

[Skerdilaid]

That because Albania has gone through harsh Toskicisation during communism. Even you, linguistically Gheg, can't tell the difference anymore :D

[The Illyrian Warrior]

That's certainly not the case in Albania. A lot of people got back some properties after the communism fell and they were split even between sons and daughters equally. That has been the case for all the people that I know.

I don't know from which place you hail from but when speaking of Albania, today Albania barely is traditional since communism destroyed everything what was left out of tradition contrary to what's been here, until lately we've gone according to tradition laws how property is shared, I'm not denying there have been some exclusions but majority had property shared among sons only however daughter was never excluded from family, she had right to visit family whenever she felt need to also family had obligation to support her if husband mistreat or abuse her.

[Era]

I don't know from which place you hail from but when speaking of Albania, today Albania barely is traditional since communism destroyed everything what was left out of tradition contrary to what's been here, until lately we've gone according to tradition laws how property is shared, I'm not denying there have been some exclusions but majority had property shared among sons only however daughter was never excluded from family, she had right to visit family whenever she felt need to also family had obligation to support her if husband mistreat or abuse her.

Tirana. However that's the case all over Albania and it has been so since before communism. That's what I explained above. The only exception is when the family doesn't have any properties except the house where they lived in and that went to the son who stayed with parents because it obviously wasn't any point in splitting between other children.

[Shqipez]

Albanians are just cool like that, if you don't mind me saying. Trough history they placed Kanun above sharia law (during the Ottoman era) and above civil law (which is heavily inspired by Kanun) during their current "Western" era.

Sharia law is retarded.

Kanun is blood and honor.

[Goujian]

And what's the problem?women get married, why give your property and money to her husband.

In my parents' country, men get married, they give their property and money to their wives and their wives' families.