Montenegrin Serb connection.

[alb0zfinest]

I was reading several sources in regards to the connection between Serbs and Montenegrins, I am asking for sources that state that Montenegrins and Serbs are essentially the same people (ALL types of sources are welcome, whether Serbian, montenegrin, western etc) so that i could understand this connection better.
THIS IS NOT A DEBATE. Your sources are welcomed and appreciated.

[Shqipez]

Montenigrin Slavs are a mix of Slavs and Albos.

Add to the fact that they have allot in common with North-Albanians/Gegs.

Source: Me.

[alb0zfinest]

Montenigrin Slavs are a mix of Slavs and Albos.

Add to the fact that they have allot in common with North-Albanians/Gegs.

Source: Me.

Nice source, :D

[Skerdilaid]

They are genetically partially Slavs but with Vlah and Albanian influence, only the Southern part or the Brda Clans fall into the later category because of their common ancestry with North Albanian Clans. As for their identity, since history can remember them as such, they have identified as South Slavs or Serbs, because they are linguistically so. Overall actually they are not too different from Serbs in general, expect that Serbs have absorbed the low land indigenous populations, while in the case of Montenegrins, they have absorbed more Highlander Vlahs and Albanians, and are also more culturally akin to those both groups.

Source, me :D

[alb0zfinest]

bumb

[Ballist]

They are simply Serbicized Albanians. Some of them even know their surnames from centuries back.

Source: my wise father.

[Kabul]

Montenegrin school textbooks said that Montenegrins are Serbs up until SFR Yugoslavia times. Source: Me, Myself, and I

But, of course, Montenegrins also have significant Albanian admixture, as hinted by cultural similarities (clans, some Slavicized Albanian names Montenegrins have, etc...).

However, they are for the most part, at least in self-identification, Serbs.

[Shqipez]

Montenegrin school textbooks said that Montenegrins are Serbs up until SFR Yugoslavia times. Source: Me, Myself, and I

That demonstrates Montenigrin isn't really an ethnicity, but rather a country where Slavs and Albanians live. They (Montenigrin Serbs) created their own identity by calling themselves montenigrins, kind of like the macedonian-bulgarians who before were really just bulgarians but created their own identity and their own country called macedonia, in that same country you have Albanians living there too, indigenous people in both lands.

[Kabul]

That demonstrates Montenigrin isn't really an ethnicity, but rather a country where Slavs and Albanians live. They (Montenigrin Serbs) created their own identity by calling themselves montenigrins, kind of like the macedonian-bulgarians who before were really just bulgarians but created their own identity and their own country called macedonia, in that same country you have Albanians living there too, indigenous people in both lands.

They're different circumstances; Montenegrins developed an identity when Montenegro gained independence from the Ottomans in the 16th century, a whole 3 centuries before Serbia, and stayed independent until the end of the first world war. A Montenegrin identity developed naturally, while the Macedonian identity was something that was forced on the Bulgarians of the region. Both the Kingdom of Serbia (and later on the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, and after that, the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) and the Kingdom of Greece enforced a separate Macedonian identity for the Bulgarians of the region, and forced it upon the Bulgarians who lived on the territory occupied by the 2 kingdoms. This was done in order to divide their enemies the Bulgarians, and any Bulgarian in Vardar Macedonia who refused to forsake his Bulgarian identity during Yugoslav times was persecuted by the Yugoslav government. The way I see things, Montenegrins naturally developed their identity by themselves, while Macedonians unnaturally had their identity forced upon them by foreigners.

[Shqipez]

They're different circumstances; Montenegrins developed an identity when Montenegro gained independence from the Ottomans in the 16th century, a whole 3 centuries before Serbia, and stayed independent until the end of the first world war. A Montenegrin identity developed naturally, while the Macedonian identity was something that was forced on the Bulgarians of the region. Both the Kingdom of Serbia (and later on the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, and after that, the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) and the Kingdom of Greece enforced a separate Macedonian identity for the Bulgarians of the region, and forced it upon the Bulgarians who lived on the territory occupied by the 2 kingdoms. This was done in order to divide their enemies the Bulgarians, and any Bulgarian in Vardar Macedonia who refused to forsake his Bulgarian identity during Yugoslav times was persecuted by the Yugoslav government. The way I see things, Montenegrins naturally developed their identity by themselves, while Macedonians unnaturally had their identity forced upon them by foreigners.

Yes, but the fact that Montenigrins developed an identity by themselves shows that they must be admixed genetically and culturally, I might think wrong here, but for a self identification to happen and take apart from another people there must be some differences too. I think allot of montenigrin culture is mixed with albo and Serb, same with Macedonian. I still think it's unfair how Macedonian slavs are called ''Macedonians'' and Montenigrin slavs are called Montenigrins, while when people refer to Albanians living in htese areas they talk like Albanians are the immigrants or call them ''Albanian macedonians'' or ''montenigrin Albanians'' :P

It's honestly a joke.

[alb0zfinest]

Le bump

[Minesweeper]

Let's start with this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onamo,_%27namo!

[Shqipez]

Somebody help this man.

[Шуло]

Chernogorians are mainly descendants of people which fled to mountains from new Ottoman rules in Serbia. It was something near 15-16 century. So they have serbian origin, but different history. Unlike other Serbs which fell under the turkish and musulmans dominion.

[alb0zfinest]

Chernogorians are mainly descendants of people which fled to mountains from new Ottoman rules in Serbia. It was something near 15-16 century. So they have serbian origin, but different history. Unlike other Serbs which fell under the turkish and musulmans dominion.

Source?

[Шуло]

Source?

http://wolf-kitses.livejournal.com/443437.html
(in russian, but you can try to google translate)

[Okirus]

According to genetic results (Y-chromosome) people of Montenegro are mix of Slavic and Balkan population.
According to historical sources (DAI in example), southern and central areas of present day Montenegro (Doclea) were settled by Slavs in 6th and 7th century, and northern and western parts parts of present day Montenegro were settled by Serbs in 7th century.

Crucial things that leads to the creation of Montenegrin national identity are decisions of "Podgorica assembly" in 1918. (personal opinion)

[Okirus]

They are genetically partially Slavs but with Vlah and Albanian influence, only the Southern part or the Brda Clans fall into the later category because of their common ancestry with North Albanian Clans. As for their identity, since history can remember them as such, they have identified as South Slavs or Serbs, because they are linguistically so. Overall actually they are not too different from Serbs in general, expect that Serbs have absorbed the low land indigenous populations, while in the case of Montenegrins, they have absorbed more Highlander Vlahs and Albanians, and are also more culturally akin to those both groups.

Source, me :D

I agree with you!

[Shqipez]

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3537/montenegrin.jpg

Well, if one thinks that when Slavs came to the Balkans, the indigenous population co-existed with them, meaning for a while allot of them carried Slavic surnames probably to not be persecuted, one can see this in allot of old Albanian tribes that allot of Albanians descendant from. For example, one of my villages is from the Kuqi/Kuci tribe. And there are allot of Serb/slav Montenigrins, or whatever they identify as, that have origin from this tribe too. Not only this tribe Also take a look at Y-DNA tests and it speaks for itself, south-Serbs/Montenigrins, lets just say that they are a mix of indigenous populations and slavs the same thing can be said for allot of Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians, they are probably a mix of indigenous populations and slavs. This happened with most indigenous populations. for example the Samis in Scandinavia, allot of them were persecutated or had to change to Scandinavian names or abandon their culture.. like south of Norway became a mix of Samis and Norwegians, and allot of Norwegians have Sami ancestry, I think even today most Samis carry Norwegian name. There are some that carry Sami names.. the same thing with the Albanians, you had the Kastrioti family, and the dukagjini family with Albanian names and then you had the Crnojevic and the Balsic of Zeta with slavic names. This doesn't make them Slavic. but of course the early Albanians were written down as 'Serbs' and allot of them belonged to Serbian orthodoxy, simply of the fact that in allot of cases they didn't have their own state and were under occupation, sometimes they managed to get it, and then lose it again etc. it went back and forth if one reads history. Like some family clans had their own principalities and managed to get an independent state, but these families ran their own state and usually went to war with eachother unless there was a bigger enemy like the Ottomans.

[Vukodav]

If you guys want serious duscussion, I am all for it.
Montenegro is romanticised Serbian Sparta, place where during Ottoman occupation of Balkans people were fueled by myths and legends of fallen Serbian knights and glory of medieval Serbian realm. It helped them preserve religion, culture and partial autonomy. If there was not Montenegrins, than Sebia and Bosnia would probably been shapen differently, since all acts of rebelions were started in Mobtenegro.
It is imposible to separate us from Serbians because we are one, the exchange of populations happened way to many times that it is imposible to tell who hails from Serbia or Montenegro. There is a saying that every Serbian has at least one Montenegrin grandfather.
When it comes ti ethnic identification, we are highly egoistic people with superiority complex which led to recent creation of separate ethnicity and divided families and whole country on two parts- ethnic Serbs and ethnic Montenegrins.
I don't think it is really important thing for this topic since we all know basicaly what it is all about.
Albanian admixture in Montenegro is something that common people never heard of, especialy not in versions that some people here might constantly repeat.
There are no records or sources to confirm it and I am highly sceptical about it.
On the other side, native admixture is strong, there are numerous sources mentioning different Romanised people living in area of modern Montenegro alongside with Slavs and those people didn't hust disapear. they were assimilated and tgat is the whole story.
Probably some Albanians too.
My topic with texts connected to this thread
www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?135583-Montenegro-and-her-share-in-Serbian-national-development

[Dun93]

They are simply Serbicized Albanians. Some of them even know their surnames from centuries back.

Source: my wise father.

When did i said that ?

[Shqipez]

If you guys want serious duscussion, I am all for it.
Montenegro is romanticised Serbian Sparta, place where during Ottoman occupation of Balkans people were fueled by myths and legends of fallen Serbian knights and glory of medieval Serbian realm. It helped them preserve religion, culture and partial autonomy. If there was not Montenegrins, than Sebia and Bosnia would probably been shapen differently, since all acts of rebelions were started in Mobtenegro.
It is imposible to separate us from Serbians because we are one, the exchange of populations happened way to many times that it is imposible to tell who hails from Serbia or Montenegro. There is a saying that every Serbian has at least one Montenegrin grandfather.
When it comes ti ethnic identification, we are highly egoistic people with superiority complex which led to recent creation of separate ethnicity and divided families and whole country on two parts- ethnic Serbs and ethnic Montenegrins.
I don't think it is really important thing for this topic since we all know basicaly what it is all about.
Albanian admixture in Montenegro is something that common people never heard of, especialy not in versions that some people here might constantly repeat.
There are no records or sources to confirm it and I am highly sceptical about it.
On the other side, native admixture is strong, there are numerous sources mentioning different Romanised people living in area of modern Montenegro alongside with Slavs and those people didn't hust disapear. they were assimilated and tgat is the whole story.
Probably some Albanians too.
My topic with texts connected to this thread
www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?135583-Montenegro-and-her-share-in-Serbian-national-development

''Some Albanians'' no... there couldn't of lived 43 Albanians in todays Albania and some in metohija and montenegro,.. there couldn't of been that little people while the rest Serbs, demographics at that time are based on religion and names rather than true ethnicities.

Nobody is trying to seperate you but some Serb montenigrin tribes have Albanian ancestry, the clans speak for themselves. Also allot of indigenous populations have been asimilated, it speaks for itself because this also has happened in every other country from Scandinavia to America.

And some of these asimilations weren't even peaceful, because most wanna practice their own culture, speak their language, carry their own names and surnames instead of the occupiers etc. And not all of these were romanised people, allot were Albanians actually living in metohija, montenegro, albania etc., but written down as Serbs by orthodox religion and slavic surnames. Demographics from that time speak for themselves.

besides, in my eyes, there is really no such thing as ''montenigrin'' in my eyes it's just another made up country created by slavs. Also the noble families of Zeta weren't romanised origin, if you see some Albanians in montenegro today they carry the same surnames as noble people who ruled Zeta during Kastriotis and Dukagjini families time.

The Norwegians in norway have also been accused earlier on for Norweginization of the Samis, and have later apologized for that, today the Samis are a protected indigenous people and can practice their culture freely without being persecuted.

Also take a look at Serbian orthodox religion and you'll see it's influenced majorly by Albanian

[Vukodav]

They are simply Serbicized Albanians. Some of them even know their surnames from centuries back.
Source: my wise father.
When did i said
popular type of urban legends on Balkans which are product of our own ignorance and lack of knowledge about neighbouring people and countries.
one such legend claims that half of Ghegs still speak Serbian and celebrate Slava. I find it hard to believe TBH.

[Vukodav]

Nobody is trying to seperate you but some Serb montenigrin tribes have Albanian ancestry, the clans speak for themselves. Also allot of indigenous populations have been asimilated, it speaks for itself because this also has happened in every other country from Scandinavia to America.

And some of these asimilations weren't even peaceful, because most wanna practice their own culture, speak their language, carry their own names and surnames instead of the occupiers etc. And not all of these were romanised people, allot were Albanians actually, but written down as Serbs by orthodox religion and slavic surnames. Demographics from that time speak for themselves.

The Norwegians in norway have also been accused earlier on for Norweginization of the Samis, and have later apologized for that, today the Samis are a protected indigenous people and can practice their culture freely without being persecuted.

I never found an actual proof that some Albanian and some Serbian clans have same origin, let aside that our clans originate frim Albanian ones.
Believe me, I ceased to be nationalist long time ago and I tend to look at history from a non-biased stance.
What is obvious is that there was common exchange of customs and culture between neighbouring tribes but everything else falls into range of legends and myths.

[Dema]

Same as Serbs

[Vožd]

Montenegrins and Serbs like Romanians and Moldavians no difference between. Montenegrins in history was ethnic Serbs, separate in 1945. at creation of republics in socialist regime.