Genetic study on Jews reveals close links to Palestinians and Italians

[Pallantides]

Jews worldwide share genetic ties
But analysis also reveals close links to Palestinians and Italians.

Different communities of Jews around the world share more than just religious or cultural practices — they also have strong genetic commonalities, according to the largest genetic analysis of Jewish people to date.

But the study also found strong genetic ties to non-Jewish groups, with the closest genetic neighbours on the European side being Italians, and on the Middle Eastern side the Druze, Bedouin and Palestinians.

Researchers in New York and Tel Aviv conducted a genome-wide analysis on 237 individuals from seven well-established Jewish communities around the world, hailing from Iran, Iraq, Italy, Greece, Turkey, Syria and eastern Europe. The team then compared these genetic profiles to those of non-Jews in the same geographic regions based on data from the Human Genome Diversity Project, a database of genomic information for individuals from populations worldwide. Each group of Jews is genetically distinct, but similarities between the groups weave them together with what the researchers describe as "genetic thread".

"There has been this back and forth discussion over the course of a century or more — are these a people? Is this in the genome?" says Harry Ostrer, a geneticist at New York University, the study's lead author. The new findings, he says, show that there "does seem to be a genetic basis to Jewishness".

Several studies in the past decade have looked at the genetics of Jewish populations, using smaller numbers of individuals, or focusing on markers in mitochondrial DNA — which is passed down maternally — or on the Y chromosome, inherited paternally. The genetic ties identified in the present study, published in the June issue of the American Journal of Human Genetics 1, are consistent with the results of previous work, says Sarah Tishkoff, a human geneticist at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, "but this is, I would say, the first study to put everything together into a big picture by looking at a large number of sites in the nuclear genome".

Close neighbours
The researchers analysed single-letter differences in the genome called single nucleotide polymorphisms, longer segments of DNA shared between different Jewish groups, as well as deleted or duplicated stretches of DNA called copy-number variants. Although the groups had strong genetic commonalities, the results also showed a varying degree of genetic mixing with nearby non-Jewish populations. The most genetically distinct Jewish communities, compared both to other Jewish groups and to nearby non-Jews, were those from Iran and Iraq.

The study provides a genetic basis for confirming or debunking theories of Jewish origin and history, says Ostrer. For example, one theory proposes that Ashkenazi Jews (of eastern European origin) are largely descended from Khazars in eastern Europe who converted to Judaism, but the genetic closeness between Ashkenazi Jews and other non-European Jews does not support this idea.

The study also highlights how genetics can reflect history, Ostrer says, including evidence of the dispersal of Jewish populations throughout the Middle East and Europe. "We really see the events of the Jewish diaspora in the genomes of Jewish people."

Using a computer simulation, the researchers estimate that the genetic split between Middle Eastern and European Jews occurred about 100–150 generations ago, or 2,500 years ago — when Jewish communities are thought to have become established in Persia and Babylon. They also trace a high level of genetic mixing between Ashkenazi Jews and nearby non-Jews to more recent times, corresponding to a period between the beginning of the fifteen century and the start of the nineteenth century when the Jewish population in Europe swelled from about 50,000 to 5 million.

Timing question
But constructing a timeline on the basis of genetic analysis is tricky, say others. "There are too many assumptions you have to make," says David Goldstein, a geneticist at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. "I don't think we have the resolution right now in the genetics to time the events."

Another tantalizing question that the study doesn't address, he says, is the historical explanation for the shared genetics between the Jewish groups. Although the data point to a common ancestral origin in the Middle East, further details — such as when and how much different populations intermixed — are impossible to glean. "That level of resolution is just not there," he says.

Ostrer says that the researchers are extending their analysis to more Jewish populations. They also hope to apply the findings to medical research by focusing on some of the longer shared genetic markers that have been identified. The group is now studying the genetic susceptibility to breast and prostate cancers among Ashkenazi Jews, he says, and other groups are using genetic mapping techniques to study conditions such as Crohn's disease and Parkinson's disease.


http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100603/full/news.2010.277.html

[Ibericus]

That's crap. Another multicultural propaganda. It doesn't correlate with this :

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/Zyklop/46730767.jpg

[Pallantides]

Did you get the analysis from Doug McDonald yet?

[Ibericus]

Did you get the analysis from Doug McDonald yet?
Not yet. He is very occupied.

[YeshAtid]

seems legit

[Anglojew]

Judeans of the world unite

[ariel]

bullshit, palestinians are bedouins,.

[Anglojew]

bullshit, palestinians are bedouins,.
That's like you're motto

[ariel]

That's like you're motto

its just the truth.

[Guapo]

I knew it, Jews are a mix of Romans and Palestinians.

[ariel]

I knew it, Jews are a mix of Romans and Palestinians.

not at all....

[YeshAtid]

That's like you're motto

It's partly true though, a lot of Palestinians do have some Bedouin ancestry but even then a lot of Beds were once Jewish. If anyone converts to Judaism, they're automatically native to the Holy Land. Period.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Tsvi_and_Ovadia.jpg

[Also]

If anyone converts to Judaism, they're automatically native to the Holy Land. Period.


Makes sense.

[Elina]

I knew it, Jews are a mix of Romans and Palestinians.

As I expected, there must be some relationship between Jews ans Italians.

[Yehiel]

As I expected, there must be some relationship between Jews ans Italians.

a small one

[Longbowman]

AJs are 50-60% European, 40-50% MENA, and <5% Mongoloid/SSA.

[Yehiel]

AJs are 50-60% European, 40-50% MENA, and <5% Mongoloid/SSA.

What do you think of Sefardi?

[Longbowman]

What do you think of Sefardi?

Very similar. Slightly less European and slightly more MENA, but <5% difference. Less Mongoloid, more SSA. Unless you're a crypto-Jew marrano like me.

[Yehiel]

Very similar. Slightly less European and slightly more MENA, but <5% difference. Less Mongoloid, more SSA. Unless you're a crypto-Jew marrano like me.

Hmm from the study ive seen Ashkenaz are anywhere from 40-60% MENA while Sefardi are 50-70% MENA with levant populations being around 70-80% MENA

[Longbowman]

Hmm from the study ive seen Ashkenaz are anywhere from 40-60% MENA while Sefardi are 50-70% MENA with levant populations being around 70-80% MENA

Depends. If you're a Sephardi from North Africa or Israel you're going to have some more MENA.

If you're a converso or Greek you won't.

Either way you'll have less/no Mongoloid, but probably a little more SSA, particularly for the Israeli/African ones.

Studies suggest both AJs and SJs started life around 50-50 MENA/Europe, or maybe 55-45 and have since accrued some more European DNA in the case of the AJs and a little more MENA for the SJs.

From personal observation - on GEDmatch, 23andme, reputable studies and blogs, it seems that a 55-45 split is pretty accurate, with <2% SSA (<3% for some SJs) and ~2% Mongoloid for AJs.

[Yehiel]

Depends. If you're a Sephardi from North Africa or Israel you're going to have some more MENA.

If you're a converso or Greek you won't.

Either way you'll have less/no Mongoloid, but probably a little more SSA, particularly for the Israeli/African ones.

Studies suggest both AJs and SJs started life around 50-50 MENA/Europe, or maybe 55-45 and have since accrued some more European DNA in the case of the AJs and a little more MENA for the SJs.

From personal observation - on GEDmatch, 23andme, reputable studies and blogs, it seems that a 55-45 split is pretty accurate, with <2% SSA (<3% for some SJs) and ~2% Mongoloid for AJs.

I think the split is pretty accurate and quite remarkable.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Depends. If you're a Sephardi from North Africa or Israel you're going to have some more MENA.

If you're a converso or Greek you won't.

Either way you'll have less/no Mongoloid, but probably a little more SSA, particularly for the Israeli/African ones.

Studies suggest both AJs and SJs started life around 50-50 MENA/Europe, or maybe 55-45 and have since accrued some more European DNA in the case of the AJs and a little more MENA for the SJs.

From personal observation - on GEDmatch, 23andme, reputable studies and blogs, it seems that a 55-45 split is pretty accurate, with <2% SSA (<3% for some SJs) and ~2% Mongoloid for AJs.

"European" is a misleading term here, quite frankly much of what is deemed "European" in AJs and SJs is ultimately of Eastern Mediterranean origin.

As I said earlier, we'll be splitting hairs for a long time over this.

Some AJs don't even have Mongoloid admixture BTW.

[Longbowman]

"European" is a misleading term here, quite frankly much of what is deemed "European" in AJs and SJs is ultimately of Eastern Mediterranean origin.

As I said earlier, we'll be splitting hairs for a long time over this.

Some AJs don't even have Mongoloid admixture BTW.

Those AJs will presumably come from German or western Polish families, but most AJs have continued history in Eastern Europe for many centuries and I've not seen one without Mongoloid, though naturally the mongoloid they do have will be fairly recent and not applicable to al of them. I gave an average.

It is true that the difference between European DNA and 'other Caucasoid' DNA is pretty minute, but most AJ mtDNA clades appear to specifically be western European. On 23andme Sephardic European DNA is mainly Italian and Iberian.

[Yehiel]

Those AJs will presumably come from German or western Polish families, but most AJs have continued history in Eastern Europe for many centuries and I've not seen one without Mongoloid, though naturally the mongoloid they do have will be fairly recent and not applicable to al of them. I gave an average.

It is true that the difference between European DNA and 'other Caucasoid' DNA is pretty minute, but most AJ mtDNA clades appear to specifically be western European. On 23andme Sephardic European DNA is mainly Italian and Iberian.

Before the update my most of my Sefardi came up as Italian and Iberian and Balkan and unspecific European now its just all Nonspecific Euro

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

It is true that the difference between European DNA and 'other Caucasoid' DNA is pretty minute, but most AJ mtDNA clades appear to specifically be western European. On 23andme Sephardic European DNA is mainly Italian and Iberian.

Well, I don't agree with the bolded part and I told you why before.
But that's irrelevant really.

We'll have to wait for genome-wide studies of pre-exilic Judean samples in order to say anything about this issue... And if the results appear to corroborate a neat average of 50% Israelite-Levantine ancestry, we'll still have to figure out where the European admixture came from which will be equally hard.

I don't exactly wish to repeat myself, I think we can both agree on the above.

[Longbowman]

Before the update my most of my Sefardi came up as Italian and Iberian and Balkan and unspecific European now its just all Nonspecific Euro

Exactly.

K1a1b1a is most closely related to clades native to northern Italy, and secondarily Germany, France and Britain. It is evident that they have pre-neolithic European provenance.

Whereas some AJ clades (J1 in particular) almost have to be Levantine and even the ones that look European, like most AJ R1a are actually Levantine clades of R1a (yes, it's found outside Europe).

Still there has been some drift. Overall it is fair to say AJs look like someone whose dad is Lebanese and whose mum is Piedmontese. Plus the mongoloid (~1% of AJs have Asiatic mtDNA clades) and SSA.

[Longbowman]

Well, I don't agree with the bolded part and I told you why before.
But that's irrelevant really.

We'll have to wait for genome-wide studies of pre-exilic Judean samples in order to say anything about this issue... And if the results appear to corroborate a neat average of 50% Israelite-Levantine ancestry, we'll still have to figure out where the European admixture came from which will be equally hard.

I don't exactly wish to repeat myself, I think we can both agree on the above.

Have you told me why before? I can't recall it I'm afraid.

Anyhow, K1a1b1a isn't found in non-European Jews (although it is very rare in non-Jewish Europeans, though it does still exist).

[Anglojew]

1. Unite Israel and Palestine to be Greater Israel

2. Incorporate the Jewish Autonomous Oblast into Greater Israel.

3. Incorporate Sicily into Greater Israel.

4. Incorporate our Pashtun Israelite brothers into another independent state of Greater Israel.

[Longbowman]

1. Unite Israel and Palestine to be Greater Israel

2. Incorporate the Jewish Autonomous Oblast into Greater Israel.

3. Incorporate Sicily into Greater Israel.

4. Incorporate our Pashtun Israelite brothers into another independent state of Greater Israel.

The ravings of a madman.

Why not incorporate Israel into Greater Sicily?

[Yehiel]

1. Unite Israel and Palestine to be Greater Israel

2. Incorporate the Jewish Autonomous Oblast into Greater Israel.

3. Incorporate Sicily into Greater Israel.

4. Incorporate our Pashtun Israelite brothers into another independent state of Greater Israel.

No greater Israel

[Yehiel]

Exactly.

K1a1b1a is most closely related to clades native to northern Italy, and secondarily Germany, France and Britain. It is evident that they have pre-neolithic European provenance.

Whereas some AJ clades (J1 in particular) almost have to be Levantine and even the ones that look European, like most AJ R1a are actually Levantine clades of R1a (yes, it's found outside Europe).

Still there has been some drift. Overall it is fair to say AJs look like someone whose dad is Lebanese and whose mum is Piedmontese. Plus the mongoloid (~1% of AJs have Asiatic mtDNA clades) and SSA.

I am a strong believer that most Ajs are descandents of female Greek or Italian converts and Judean males.

[Longbowman]

I am a strong believer that most Ajs are descandents of female Greek or Italian converts and Judean males.

Most probably Italian, looking at a) genetics and b) history.

[Yehiel]

Most probably Italian, looking at a) genetics and b) history.

Yeah most being Italians, but to say that exiled Jews only mated with Italian converts is crazy

[Longbowman]

Yeah most being Italians, but to say that exiled Jews only mated with Italian converts is crazy

:laugh:

Sure, but European Jews, particularly AJs, can be traced back to Italy.

Which suggests they're Italian.

[Yehiel]

:laugh:

Sure, but European Jews, particularly AJs, can be traced back to Italy.

Which suggests they're Italian.

Should have mated with barbarians and took down the romans for good

[Longbowman]

Should have mated with barbarians and took down the romans for good

K36 tells me I'm 1/4 Italian by ancient DNA. You take that back, you! Roman pride.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Have you told me why before? I can't recall it I'm afraid.

Actually, my very first posts addressed this topic... The fact that the Costa et al paper relies on naive phylogeographic analysis and other numerous flaws:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?107395-Should-Israel-and-Sicily-form-a-union&p=2344079&highlight=#post2344079


Anyhow, K1a1b1a isn't found in non-European Jews (although it is very rare in non-Jewish Europeans, though it does still exist).

It doesn't need to be found in non-European Jews, it can still be a lineage which didn't manage to survive in non-European Jews.
The same can be seen for specific Y-DNA lineages, and it works both ways.
So there's no reason to assume the opposite couldn't have happened (and actually, it might very well have happened).

[Longbowman]

Actually, my very first posts addressed this topic... The fact that the Costa et al paper relies on naive phylogeographic analysis and other numerous flaws:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?107395-Should-Israel-and-Sicily-form-a-union&p=2344079&highlight=#post2344079



It doesn't need to be found in non-European Jews, it can still be a lineage which didn't manage to survive in non-European Jews.
The same can be seen for specific Y-DNA lineages, and it works both sides.
So there's no reason to assume the opposite couldn't have happened (and actually, it might very well have happened).

Sure, that paper isn't airtight, but you know, it's probably about right. I don't base my opinion on it; it supports a preexisting thought of mine.

Your idea that K1a1b1a completely died out in non-European Jews is hardly plausible, considering how popular it is amongst AJs (although not quite as much amongst SJs - I'm one of the lucky few). Sure, genetic drift blah blah but there're a lot of other similar AJ clades (the four 'founding mothers' are pretty much unique to AJs/SJs too) and you're really stretching if you think they all just 'died out.'

Whilst what you're saying could have physically happened, a much more satisfying answer that ties in better with autosomal evidence and the spread of K1a1b1 and K1a1b1b through K1a1b1e is that it's simply not Israelite.

What YDNA clades with demonstrable Levantine origin exist in AJs but not Mizrahis?

[Yehiel]

K36 tells me I'm 1/4 Italian by ancient DNA. You take that back, you! Roman pride.

it says im 16%.. this is not good

[Longbowman]

it says im 16%.. this is not good

You've been outItalianed.

Che cazzo hai detto delle mie genetiche Italiane, stronzetto?

[Yehiel]

You've been outItalianed.

Che cazzo hai detto delle mie genetiche Italiane, stronzetto?

Translator needed

[Longbowman]

Translator needed

It probably shouldn't be translated :laugh:

What on earth did you say about my Italian heritage, you fool?

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Sure, that paper isn't airtight, but you know, it's probably about right. I don't base my opinion on it; it supports a preexisting thought of mine.

Your idea that K1a1b1a completely died out in non-European Jews is hardly plausible, considering how popular it is amongst AJs (although not quite as much amongst SJs - I'm one of the lucky few). Sure, genetic drift blah blah but there're a lot of other similar AJ clades (the four 'founding mothers' are pretty much unique to AJs/SJs too) and you're really stretching if you think they all just 'died out.'

Whilst what you're saying could have physically happened, a much more satisfying answer that ties in better with autosomal evidence and the spread of K1a1b1 and K1a1b1b through K1a1b1e is that it's simply not Israelite.

What YDNA clades with demonstrable Levantine origin exist in AJs but not Mizrahis?

Clades L816 and YSC76 are both found in Ashkenazim and Iraqi Jews for instance, whereas it is not to be found amongst Sephardim.
In the same way, Sephardim belong to J2b clades which are simply absent in Ashkenazim and Mizrahim.

So it isn't a wild theory.

Either way, mtDNA has very little influence on autosomal DNA, which is why Ashkenazim and Sephardim are near-indistinguishable on PCA plots while retaining drastically different mtDNA frequencies.

In the end, this all comes down to aDNA testing... This is the smoking gun.

[Longbowman]

Clades L816 and YSC76 are both found in Ashkenazim and Iraqi Jews for instance, whereas it is not to be found amongst Sephardim.
In the same way, Sephardim belong to J2b clades which are absent in Ashkenazim and Mizrahim.

So it isn't a wild theory.

Either way, mtDNA has very little influence on autosomal DNA, which is why Ashkenazim and Sephardim are near-indistinguishable on PCA plots while retaining drastically different mtDNA frequencies.

In the end, this all comes down to aDNA testing... This is the smoking gun.

It is outlandish; you need to explain away the fact that nearly all AJ/SJ mtDNA clades aren't even found in Mizrahis and other Jews, let alone their being common. I'm not denying a certain relationship; on the contrary, I'm supporting it; but the differences really are manifold. They're simply not the same people, at all.

mtDNA has 16,000 base pairs, which is nothing, but it's useful in population genetics. If you find populations with almost the same proportions of the same haplogroups, they're likely to be closely related.

aDNA testing shows AJs look like half-Italians half-Levantines and as pointed out they (including me) score heavily Italian and European results.

AJs and SJs are of course near-indistinguishable because they're basically the same people. They also cluster near Sicilians. However, they do not cluster with Mizrahis. Why is this? Clearly because of non-Levantine admixture on the part of one or both groups.

I think your argument has many holes.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

It is outlandish; you need to explain away the fact that nearly all AJ/SJ mtDNA clades aren't even found in Mizrahis and other Jews, let alone their being common. I'm not denying a certain relationship; on the contrary, I'm supporting it; but the differences really are manifold. They're simply not the same people, at all.

mtDNA has 16,000 base pairs, which is nothing, but it's useful in population genetics. If you find populations with almost the same proportions of the same haplogroups, they're likely to be closely related.

aDNA testing shows AJs look like half-Italians half-Levantines and as pointed out they (including me) score heavily Italian and European results.

AJs and SJs are of course near-indistinguishable because they're basically the same people. They also cluster near Sicilians. However, they do not cluster with Mizrahis. Why is this? Clearly because of non-Levantine admixture on the part of one or both groups.

I think your argument has many holes.

Actually, the theory which seems the most outlandish is the one proposing an important North Italian contribution to the Ashkenazi-Sephardi gene pool.
Two observations make this view very compelling:

-Low to non-existent IBD sharing with North Italians (while you'd expect them to share as much as they do with Druze if they truly were hybrids between the two)
-Absence of the WHG component (which is more of a component than any Gedmatch component, since it is based on ancient genomes) in Sephardi-Ashkenazi Jews, which is present in N. Italians.

Actually, the high frequencies of uniparental clades shared with Mesopotamians-Kurds-Armenians along with the fact that Mizrahim tend to be near-identical to their host population (Assyrians, Mandeans, Syriacs, etc) seems to indicate that they have gone through an awful lot of admixture during their stay in Mesopotamia (Zakho Jews immediately come to mind, for instance).

If anything, Mizrahim might be the most admixed out of both groups, though it is pretty clear both have been through admixture events.

But this is all speculation, and we need the smoking gun: aDNA.

[Longbowman]

Actually, the theory which seems the most outlandish is the one proposing an important North Italian contribution to the Ashkenazi-Sephardi gene pool.
Two observations make this view very compelling:

-Low to non-existent IBD sharing with North Italians (while you'd expect them to share as much as they do with Druze if they truly were hybrids between the two)
-Absence of the WHG component (which is more of a component than any Gedmatch components, since it is based on ancient genomes) in Sephardi-Ashkenazi Jews, which is present in N. Italians.

Actually, the high frequencies of uniparental clades shared with Mesopotamians-Kurds-Armenians along with the fact that Mizrahim tend to be near-identical to their host population (Assyrians, Mandeans, Syriacs, etc) seems to indicate that they have gone through an awful lot of admixture during their stay in Mesopotamia.

If anything, Mizrahim might be the most admixed out of both groups, though it is pretty clear both had been through admixture events.

But this is all speculation, and we need the smoking gun: aDNA.

I personally haven't seen an AJ score no WHG. They score about half as much as you'd expect a Central Italian to score. But I haven't run a proper study, of course.

IBD sharing will be low because the AJs have been separate from everyone for 1,400 years minimum and probably closer to 2,000 but I haven't seen the data to which you're referring so I can't comment with certainty.

I think you want to believe AJs/SJs are pure/close to pure Levantines for ulterior reasons; perhaps you support Ethnic Zionism? It simply doesn't corroborate with any data. Your arguments read a bit like AIDs denialism; ignoring the strong correlation, ignoring all the positive evidence and focusing only on negative evidence - what evidence have you, Sir, pulling them towards the Levant? Because unadmixed Palestinians/Lebanese/Jordanians they are not.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

I personally haven't seen an AJ score no WHG. They score about half as much as you'd expect a Central Italian to score. But I haven't run a proper study, of course.

If they scored half as much as a Central Italian, they'd still show a substantial amount of WHG... Which they don't.


IBD sharing will be low because the AJs have been separate from everyone for 1,400 years minimum and probably closer to 2,000 but I haven't seen the data to which you're referring so I can't comment with certainty.

True, but all runs on FastIBD analyses show that Jews share next to nothing with North Italians, see for yourself:

http://pichoster.net/images/2014/02/16/heatmap.png

Compare with this for more resolution on MENA groups:

http://pichoster.net/images/2014/02/16/heatmap%20ibd.png

As you can see Ashkenazim and Sephardim both have more IBD sharingwith Syrians and Armenians than with N. Italians (practically non-existent IBD sharing).

This is a huge blow to any N. Italian contribution, because you'd expect them to share near-equally with N. Italians.



I think you want to believe AJs/SJs are pure/close to pure Levantines for ulterior reasons; perhaps you support Ethnic Zionism? It simply doesn't corroborate with any data. Your arguments read a bit like AIDs denialism; ignoring the strong correlation, ignoring all the positive evidence and focusing only on negative evidence - what evidence have you, Sir, pulling them towards the Levant? Because unadmixed Palestinians/Lebanese/Jordanians they are not.

You misunderstand: I am not saying that AJ-SJs are "pure" in any way, it is obvious they are not and have been through admixture events.
It is in fact impossible for any given population to be "pure", even Sardinians aren't "pure" descendants of Neolithic farmers.

This is also to be expected for Levantines (and there is a good amount of evidence corroborating recent admixture events).

My guess is that the AJ-SJ cluster went through admixture events in the Eastern Mediterranean, with a population which had higher EEF ancestry than Judeans proper yet low to non-existent WHG (no European Mesolithic alleles).
This would explain IBD sharing with Greeks, which must've been more "Cypriot-like" prior to the 9th century CE.

This would squarely put the level of admixture in the ~30-36% threshold, as opposed to 50% which is what Mixed Modes are made for.

And please, let's not mix politics here: I am trying to be as unbiased as one possibly can be, that's all really.
This topic is already heated enough, we don't need to throw politics into the goddamn issue.

[Longbowman]

I'll withdraw the politics thing, but if you're arguing for 36% European as opposed to ~55% European that's not a huge jump. For the record I don't think AJs are half North Italian, though it wouldn't surprise me, just that sister clades to AJ mtDNA haplogroups are found mainly in north Italy. Historically it would make more sense for them to be half(ish)-central/southern Italy. If they are in fact half(ish) Greek-like, or southern Italian which is also very Greek-like but makes a bit more sense (not that Greek is totally implausible) then I buy that. Sicilians also have little to no WHG.

36% is too low, though. Practically the entire AJ mtDNA grouping is squarely European, with some YDNA to boot. I think a problem you're looking at is an assumption that all European admixture would be old-European; if it happened in Italy, which I suggest, or even southern Greece, a lot of it would have come from older Neolithic or post-Neolithic Near East/Anatolian migrations. This would account for the relatively small IBD sharing with northern Italians, the mid-30s European component (the Harappa project and others usually say 37-8%) but still account for the near complete incompatibility of mtDNA with Levantine groups.

To summate, I think the evidence clearly points to a roughly male-line Levantine, female-line South Italian admixture.

[Yehiel]

Sucks the poster wont see the revival of his 4 year old post

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

I'll withdraw the politics thing, but if you're arguing for 36% European as opposed to ~55% European that's not a huge jump. For the record I don't think AJs are half North Italian, though it wouldn't surprise me, just that sister clades to AJ mtDNA haplogroups are found mainly in north Italy. Historically it would make more sense for them to be half(ish)-central/southern Italy. If they are in fact half(ish) Greek-like, or southern Italian which is also very Greek-like but makes a bit more sense (not that Greek is totally implausible) then I buy that. Sicilians also have little to no WHG.

36% is too low, though. Practically the entire AJ mtDNA grouping is squarely European, with some YDNA to boot. I think a problem you're looking at is an assumption that all European admixture would be old-European; if it happened in Italy, which I suggest, or even southern Greece, a lot of it would have come from older Neolithic or post-Neolithic Near East/Anatolian migrations. This would account for the relatively small IBD sharing with northern Italians, the mid-30s European component (the Harappa project and others usually say 37-8%) but still account for the near complete incompatibility of mtDNA with Levantine groups.

To summate, I think the evidence clearly points to a roughly male-line Levantine, female-line South Italian admixture.

Of course, it is not a huge jump, one has to consider the fact that while the AJ-SJ strongly clines towards Lebanon, it is still pulled towards Europe.
So admixture is obvious and absolutely undeniable, the problem really lies in quantifying the amount of admixture... And there must have been several sources (same thing for the West Asian DNA, some of it has to do with the Jews' exile in Mesopotamia since there is consistent IBD sharing with Iranians, Iraqis, Armenians, even Assyrians to some extent).
South Italian-like admixture is possible, very probable even...
Sicilians show practically no WHG as well, though there are some South Italians who ended up showing trivial but nonetheless real amounts of WHG.

You could go up to 40% maximum as far as admixture is concerned, but that would be a stretch.
The most realistic figure would be something around ~36% for Ashkenazim and ~32% for Sephardim with a margin of error of around ~5%.

But in the end, as I said, it all comes down to aDNA.
Even then, we'll be splitting hairs if what I suspect, that pre-exilic Judeans were intermediate between Cypriots and Lebanese Christians/Druze (since we must account for the long-standing influence of Eastern Mediterranean peoples in the region, from the Philistines to the Seleucids), turns out to be true.

Hopefully, this will not be the case, making it easier to solve this whole dilemma.

[Longbowman]

Of course, it is not a huge jump, one has to consider the fact that while the AJ-SJ strongly clines towards Lebanon, it is still pulled towards Europe.
So admixture is obvious and absolutely undeniable, the problem really lies in quantifying the amount of admixture... And there must have been several sources (same thing for the West Asian DNA, some of it has to do with the Jews' exile in Mesopotamia since there is consistent IBD sharing with Iranians, Iraqis, Armenians, even Assyrians to some extent).
South Italian-like admixture is possible, very probable even...
Sicilians show practically no WHG as well, though there are some South Italians who ended up showing trivial but nonetheless real amounts of WHG.

You could go up to 40% maximum as far as admixture is concerned, but that would be a stretch.
The most realistic figure would be something around ~36% for Ashkenazim and ~32% for Sephardim with a margin of error of around ~5%.

But in the end, as I said, it all comes down to aDNA.
Even then, we'll be splitting hairs if what I suspect, that pre-exilic Judeans were intermediate between Cypriots and Lebanese Christians/Druze (since we must account for the long-standing influence of Eastern Mediterranean peoples in the region, from the Philistines to the Seleucids), turns out to be true.

Hopefully, this will not be the case, making it easier to solve this whole dilemma.

I don't think 50-55% is a stretch for Sicilian-Levantine/Caucasus. It might be pulled towards the Levant but as you mention, there is the Caucasian influence 'weighting' the admixture. Sicilians score as much WHG as AJs - some of both groups score non-trivial amounts - but if you're 50% Sicilian you're not 50% European, Sicilians also have heavy Anatolian/MENA admixture.

A half-Sicilian, quarter-Lebanese quarter-Iraqi Kurd would look pretty much like an AJ, I think. ~50% Sicilian/South Italian and that sort of area + ~25% Judaean + ~25% south Caucus/north Iraq (pre-Arabic Iraqi populations) is for me a satisfactory look at the core ancestral population of Western European Jews. I think it satisfies all genetic and historic criteria. On top of that we have SSA for both, but particularly the SJs, and later, minor, other-European admixture+mongoloid for AJs.