Discussion about minorities and multiple identity

[Jana]

Hello.

Can we have lively discussion about this question? Forum kind off died in sense of real debate. So post your opinion! :)

Regarding minority groups in Europe, and their status. Why is in everyone's interest to promote minority groups? I think it's bullshit. Minorities bring only trouble both for majority population and even themselfs. I see some mediveal preservationalists in here who support segragation of people in their country, who are of different ethnic origin, even when they are inhabiting it for centures. It's very stupid, and counter-productive in long term. And here I am talking about historical minorities, not recent economic immigarants, refugees or people from outside of Europe.

Why is assimilation viewed as bad thing? Assimilation, in political sense, and more importatly cultural. It's positive that minority gropus identifies as French/German/Polish whatever in political sense, and feel that country as their homeland. They should keep their language, folkore and other traditions of course, but on outside they do not feel different than any reguar citizen of their country.

This blood ties identification is...a trouble. I see some people of mixed ancestry here who list their ethnicities as whatever mix they are, but in reality you can be only one thing. Ancestry and ethnicity is not the same in every case. When you chose to identify as mixed, you are actally chosing nothing. For example, I am true European mutt, but can only be Croatian. Why? Because I live there, simple as that (of course, majority of my ancestry is Croatian). Had lot of tought about what to write in profile, and changed it many times. In the end, it is simple. If I lived in Bosnia, politically I'd be Bosnian. In France, I'd be French. Some see this as no-backbone mongrel behaviour, but I think it's only natural one. What I think in private (for example have special love for BIH:D is not important), homeland is where your home and life lies.

Do you people think that double identity has some advantages? I think not. Why would Greek living in UK not feel British, even though he is Greek? If someone is born and raised as Brit, why other Brits would not accept him as Brit? What gain that attitude has for them, UK and him? Other extreme example is African immigrant. To remind you, I do not support immigration to Europe at all. But for those who are already there, born and raised in culture, what is the solution? It is either to culturally assimilatte them a la US style or ghettoize them in failed multi-culti way, where they remian culturally and in many others way alien to native population. I want to hear some opinions.

PS inspiration for this threas was conversation with friend of mine, Serbo-Macedonian-Croat mutt, born in Croatia. He told us that he is Serb, because he is orthodox. He recently visited Serbia for first time in his life. He told us he's proud to be minority in HIS OWN HOMELAND. wtf? We laughed and friend told him that he considers him Croatian of mixed ancestry and orthodox by religion. But my friend said that his counry is Serbia and that he's minority here in Croatia. Of course, some Croats support this, because they want only pure Croats to identify as Croats, and wish for everyone else to remain ''minorites''. My toughts are messy, but this topic really made me think...

[Jana]

Hey! Is th question controversial or simply stupid? Please share some toughts :)

[Methmatician]

Hey! Is th question controversial or simply stupid? Please share some toughts :)
I think minorities should have the right to preserve their culture and language but there should also be a requirement to assimilate a bit. I think most Europeans feel that way. People with extreme views will probably advocate complete assimilation.

[finþaų]

I think minorities should have the right to preserve their culture and language but there should also be a requirement to assimilate a bit. I think most Europeans feel that way. People with extreme views will probably advocate complete assimilation.

Those with "extreme" views are going to not want aliens to become part of the gene pool, and this is accomplished not by assimilation but rather by repatriation.

[StormBringer]

I see some people of mixed ancestry here who list their ethnicities as whatever mix they are, but in reality you can be only one thing.
That's because they live abroad, but even that seems to be a recent transgression since American for instance only list more ethnicities in their ancestry section not ethnicity.


We laughed and friend told him that he considers him Croatian of mixed ancestry and orthodox by religion. But my friend said that his counry is Serbia and that he's minority here in Croatia. Of course, some Croats support this, because they want only pure Croats to identify as Croats, and wish for everyone else to remain ''minorites''.

*insert Ringelnatter post about Rijeka being one of the centres of cultural marxist policy and westernmost Serbian city*

[Iron Sheik]

There is no ethnicity or race free national identity. Thats why it's difficult. I don't see why you have to become ethnically european to be able to function and live in Europe. Its enough that you respect the laws, culture, the customs and procedures in the country. Both formal and informal. You can't magically transform someone from another ethnicity to another. Its easier if they look the same however.

[Jana]

That's because they live abroad, but even that seems to be a recent transgression since American for instance only list more ethnicities in their ancestry section not ethnicity.



*insert Ringelnatter post about Rijeka being one of the centres of cultural marxist policy and westernmost Serbian city*

Yeah, yeah. I actually forgot the point of my question :D Respecting your country of residence should be enough.

Ringelnatter though: ''Your city is not relevant, since its multi-cultural communist cesspit, with proletarian mentality. I am not really surprised. No wonder that you were enjoying your commie life style while whole Croatia bled for 4 rough years.
Basically your whole city along with Istria represent fifth column of Croatian state. ''

That qoute was such shitposting. Or not?? :D))) See you my friends, and discuss the question if you wish. It's probably stupid on second tought.


...

[Methmatician]

Those with "extreme" views are going to not want aliens to become part of the gene pool, and this is accomplished not by assimilation but rather by repatriation.
Sure they're extreme, but they're not the extreme people I was talking about. I was talking about people who want to assimilate migrants completely so that they become part of the nation they migrated to and sever all ties to their former nation.

[Insuperable]

Hello.

Can we have lively discussion about this question? Forum kind off died in sense of real debate. So post your opinion! :)

Regarding minority groups in Europe, and their status. Why is in everyone's interest to promote minority groups? I think it's bullshit. Minorities bring only trouble both for majority population and even themselfs. I see some mediveal preservationalists in here who support segragation of people in their country, who are of different ethnic origin, even when they are inhabiting it for centures. It's very stupid, and counter-productive in long term. And here I am talking about historical minorities, not recent economic immigarants, refugees or people from outside of Europe.

That is not stupid. It is a smart thing. You would allow Gypsies to assimilate? Please.


Why is assimilation viewed as bad thing? Assimilation, in political sense, and more importatly cultural. It's positive that minority gropus identifies as French/German/Polish whatever in political sense, and feel that country as their homeland. They should keep their language, folkore and other traditions of course, but on outside they do not feel different than any reguar citizen of their country.

Imo they can identify in any way they want expect in an ethnic sense of a country they are in. By all means they can keep their language, folkore and any tradition they can because that is a positive thing which may postpone possible assimilation.


Do you people think that double identity has some advantages? I think not. Why would Greek living in UK not feel British, even though he is Greek? If someone is born and raised as Brit, why other Brits would not accept him as Brit?

Because he is not a true Brit.


What gain that attitude has for them, UK and him? Other extreme example is African immigrant. To remind you, I do not support immigration to Europe at all. But for those who are already there, born and raised in culture, what is the solution? It is either to culturally assimilatte them a la US style or ghettoize them in failed multi-culti way, where they remian culturally and in many others way alien to native population. I want to hear some opinions.

Solution is sterilization.


But my friend said that his counry is Serbia and that he's minority here in Croatia.

Your friend is wise. On a serious note he may not have any country anymore. He may be 'rejected' by people from countries his ancestry hails from.

Personally, I wouldn't mind assimilation in my country of people who are native Europeans and hail from more northern countries.
xD

[Jana]

How do you multi-qoute?

Why did Anglo-Saxons assimilated with Celts, or Illyrians with Croats?? I mean, if they didn't, we'd be white as Russians :(((( It's a historical question? WHY? Because of that, Brits are second-rate Germanics and Croats second-rate Slavs. God punished assimilating nations, it's very obvious.

xD

On a serious note, yeah I support assimilation. Of course. I'd love that gypsy or other non-Croats feel Croatia as their homeland and love the country, respect the culture, and not feel alien. And remain ethnically what they are. And, have culture that does not clash with ours. Cannot understand racist attitude, as we are not racist people who exploited colonies, nor should feel guilty and accept huge numbers of foreigners in here. We never took from anybody and don't owe them anything. If you ask me, problems in UK are their problems, brought on by their greedy politicans. Nothing agaist common people, but I don't wish Western European xenophobia spread to Croatia. After all, we are culturally a true European country with many bad sides, but civilisational level is not one of them. Let's keep it that way.

[Prism]

I personally feel like if you don't have any ancestry ( DNA ) from a certain country you can't be considered of that nationality for example there are loads of Pakistanis in England and they were born there, are they English ? For me, no the reason being is that they have no ancestry from there and do not share lineage, history and culture with the native peoples now if a person is half English half Pakistani that a different story.
Same goes for poles in England.

The only way you belong to an ethnicity is if and only if you have blood that relates to that country.
Take it from me as a guy who's lived in the west the majority of his life , when I was young and I had a British stepdad I thought I could call myself British but I never really felt comfortable saying this and after a few years that I discovered who I really am I feel a lot more happy with myself and proud of who I really am :)

Btw Strah od letenja you multi quote by clicking the last icon under someone's post.

[Jana]

Thanks.

Good post, I agree. Question was more related about historical minorities (for example Czechs in Croatia). Mass immigaration from outside EU an even inter-Eu is a failure, but it's another questions.

But, Serbs have been here for 400 years, hey are similar to us, but not the same, especially in culture. Genetically we are close and understand each other. If they would feel Serb but, feel loyalty to Croatia that would be ideal. If they don't like Croatia, they can move to Serbia, or anywhere else. Ofc, this is bad example, because of bad blood and history between us. But hopefully people understood what the point was.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Regarding minority groups in Europe, and their status. Why is in everyone's interest to promote minority groups? I think it's bullshit.

It's in the interst of foreign powers and foreign invaders who want to take over to weaken the west. It also makes it easier for global corporations to seize even more power.

As far as being in the interest of thenatives, of course it's not, it's their obliteration.

[Prism]

Haha yes it was a bad example being honest but I get ya :).

I looked over your first post and IMO if you lived in Bosnia you would feel Bosnian because you have Bosnian ancestry and Bosnian and Croatian is pretty much the same language , but French that's a different story even if you speak French you have no french blood ( or do you ? Idk ) i don't know you just get a feeling of not belonging it's hard to explain . You feel accepted of course but just not one of them.

Have you ever lived outside of Croatia or Bosnia ?

[Jana]

Haha yes it was a bad example being honest but I get ya :).

I looked over your first post and IMO if you lived in Bosnia you would feel Bosnian because you have Bosnian ancestry and Bosnian and Croatian is pretty much the same language , but French that's a different story even if you speak French you have no french blood ( or do you ? Idk ) i don't know you just get a feeling of not belonging it's hard to explain . You feel accepted of course but just not one of them.

Have you ever lived outside of Croatia or Bosnia ?

I don't have any French blood. Maybe it was clumsy written, I am Croatian with some foreign ancestry and can only be that. Wouldn't want ot never change it, but if I lived in France, I would be grateful to France, and would consider France as homeland. In that way I'd assimilate, simply by trying to learn French culture and not insist on old ways from Croatia. Again, it's a bad example as I could never be historical minority in France, just another EU immigant.

Yes, I lived outside Croatia. Do you live in the UK? Curious :D

[Prism]

I don't have any French blood. Maybe it was clumsy written, I am Croatian with some foreign ancestry and can only be that. Wouldn't want ot never change it, but if I lived in France, I would be grateful to France, and would consider France as homeland. In that way I'd assimilate, simply by trying to learn French culture and not insist on old ways from Croatia. Again, it's a bad example as I could never be historical minority in France, just another EU immigant.

Yes, I lived outside Croatia. Do you live in the UK? Curious :D

Ok understood. Actually I used to be like uptight about telling people where I live i don't know why haha.
I told Solin so I'll tell you too. I live in Spain , south of Spain it's great here very multicultural .

I speak Spanish and have friends of so many different ethnicities Spanish, Russian , Polish , Italian , South American , Swedish , German the list goes on...
I moved from England a couple of years ago.

[StormBringer]

Thanks.

Good post, I agree. Question was more related about historical minorities (for example Czechs in Croatia). Mass immigaration from outside EU an even inter-Eu is a failure, but it's another questions.

But, Serbs have been here for 400 years, hey are similar to us, but not the same, especially in culture. Genetically we are close and understand each other. If they would feel Serb but, feel loyalty to Croatia that would be ideal. If they don't like Croatia, they can move to Serbia, or anywhere else. Ofc, this is bad example, because of bad blood and history between us. But hopefully people understood what the point was.

I assume most of those living in continental parts of Croatia, in towns where Croats are majority, will assimilate eventually, or at least try to hide their identity, then you've got some old folks and couple of "younger" hermits in rural areas who want to live at the hearth of their ancestors, but that population can only die out.
In Rijeka and such places, which are used to being "multi kulti" because of their coastal/trading tradition, they'll perhaps hold up.
And there's Vukovar, but that'll just be a tense segregated town whose happenings entertain nationalist from both sides occasionally..

But I'm basing my judgement on a dozen or so Serbs I know who live in Croatia.
I'm pretty sure I stumbled on an instance of my last name being listed under Croats in that imehrvatsko site in the town where my grandpa's brother lives with his family, and I've never heard of a Croat having that last name.So I guess I can renounce them. xD

[Insuperable]

How do you multi-qoute? Why did Anglo-Saxons assimilated with Celts, or Illyrians with Croats?? I mean, if they didn't, we'd be white as Russians :(((( It's a historical question? WHY? Because of that, Brits are second-rate Germanics and Croats second-rate Slavs. God punished assimilating nations, it's very obvious.

Ethnicity of these two modern people emerged and was shaped after this mixing.


On a serious note, yeah I support assimilation. Of course. I'd love that gypsy or other non-Croats feel Croatia as their homeland and love the country, respect the culture, and not feel alien. And remain ethnically what they are.

I wouldn't mind that, but that is how it can only always remain, words and theory. I don't care if Gypsies or other non-Europeans love this or any other country, respect the culture and what not else.


And, have culture that does not clash with ours. Cannot understand racist attitude, as we are not racist people who exploited colonies, nor should feel guilty and accept huge numbers of foreigners in here. We never took from anybody and don't owe them anything. If you ask me, problems in UK are their problems, brought on by their greedy politicans. Nothing agaist common people, but I don't wish Western European xenophobia spread to Croatia. After all, we are culturally a true European country with many bad sides, but civilisational level is not one of them. Let's keep it that way.

Western Europeans are less xenophobic imo and even if that is not true let them spread that xenophobia.

[Insuperable]

I assume most of those living in continental parts of Croatia, in towns where Croats are majority, will assimilate eventually, or at least try to hide their identity, then you've got some old folks and couple of "younger" hermits in rural areas who want to live at the hearth of their ancestors, but that population can only die out.
In Rijeka and such places, which are used to being "multi kulti" because of their coastal/trading tradition, they'll perhaps hold up.
And there's Vukovar, but that'll just be a tense segregated town whose happenings entertain nationalist from both sides occasionally..

But I'm basing my judgement on a dozen or so Serbs I know who live in Croatia.
I'm pretty sure I stumbled on an instance of my last name being listed under Croats in that imehrvatsko site in the town where my grandpa's brother lives with his family, and I've never heard of a Croat having that last name.So I guess I can renounce them. xD

Just because you have never heard... Hiding idenity pfff, they are not Gypsies.

[StormBringer]

:D
Joking, they're still family, even if we rarely see them considering they live just across the border.

[Jana]

Ethnicity of these two modern people emerged and was shaped after this mixing.

Croats existed prior to arriving in modern Croatia, but they were genetically different than modern Croats. Just like Sorbs and Serbs.

[Jana]

I wouldn't mind that, but that is how it can only always remain, words and theory. I don't care if Gypsies or other non-Europeans love this or any other country, respect the culture and what not else.

I care for opinion of all Croatian citizens. Gypsies belong to Europe despite their South Asian descent, just like New Worlders belong to the new world despite their European descent. Gypsy lifestyle is not something I like, like most Europeans, but certanly have no right to consider them lesser people. It's not PC, it's just Catholic indoctrication :D Although majority gypsies are not indigenious to Croatia, but to other Balkan countries, that's for sure. They came from east, in last century or so. It's not trouble in here anyway, so no point to argue.

If StormBringer's relatives still live in Croatia, I guess their life is OK. This is kind of sensitive topic, so maybe best thing is to hope for good future for all ppl in Europe. I'm out of thread, too much auto-censure needed to write something meaningful.

[Insuperable]

Croats existed prior to arriving in modern Croatia, but they were genetically different than modern Croats. Just like Sorbs and Serbs.

That reasoning is valid for many people in Europe. Like I said, modern Croatian ethncity emerged several centuries after the arrival of Slavs (Croats) to present location. One of your main points in this thead is that immigrants or historical minorites should respect nation and culture of the country blah blah blah. That is basically a cultural and political assimilation you talk about. News flash, it is an expectable thing for civilized people. You don't need to open a thread each time when discovering hot water. But, then again, my small brain can't connect sudden talk about mixing of Romans and Croats, Germanics and Celts in Britain with that and I can't help myself not to think there is more to it than that. And voila there it is - 'you can be only of one ethnicity', 'assimilation', 'Gypsies', 'African immigrants'... puhlease.


I care for opinion of all Croatian citizens. Gypsies belong to Europe despite their South Asian descent, just like New Worlders belong to the new world despite their European descent. Gypsy lifestyle is not something I like, like most Europeans, but certanly have no right to consider them lesser people. It's not PC, it's just Catholic indoctrication :D Although majority gypsies are not indigenious to Croatia, but to other Balkan countries, that's for sure. They came from east, in last century or so. It's not trouble in here anyway, so no point to argue.

They don't belong to Europe nor are they of European descent nor are they indigenious to any Balkan countries even if their lifestyle is something Queen Elizabeth wouldn't be ashamed of. If anywhere, they belong to the New World.

[StormBringer]

Hiding idenity pfff, they are not Gypsies.

From couple of younger of Serbs I know who live in Croatia, and couple of Croats whom I know here I'd say it's downright hiding of one's identity like a serpent hides her legs...like this one Croat kid I know, never writes down his nationality and religion in application papers for college semester, and if it wasn't for one of the guys who went to highschool with him telling us about him being Croat, I'd have never guessed.

I guess it's mainly out of precaution, cause you never know what kind of people you can run into, but those definitely aren't the shoes I'd like to be in.
And it's convenient since our names don't differ that much, unlike for instance Bosniaks whom you can tell right of the bat as soon as they tell you their name. xD

[Methmatician]

unlike for instance Bosniaks whom you can tell right of the bat as soon as they tell you their name. xD
What if their name was something like Zlatan Begović? Is that name ambiguous?

[StormBringer]

What if their name was something like Zlatan Begović? Is that name ambiguous?

I think most people would assume a guy named Zlatan to be Bosniak.I know I would...

[Methmatician]

I think most people would assume a guy named Zlatan to be Bosniak.I know I would...
What about those really uncommon names or foreign names? I have one of those and Serbs and Croats thought I was one of them. They had to ask what I was to be sure :laugh: Btw, how common is it now to give foreign names to children over there?

[StormBringer]

What about those really uncommon names or foreign names? I have one of those and Serbs and Croats thought I was one of them. They had to ask what I was to be sure :laugh: Btw, how common is it now to give foreign names to children over there?

You have people giving kids strange/archaic names obviously, I know a guy who named his kid Njegoš, that will probably make addressing to the kid by name a bit of a mystery for a lot of people later on. xD
Foreign names, I don't think they've caught on yet, at least in my immediate area, I reckon it's because of pesky parents around here who want to control their kids even after marriage, that it's a no go. :D

[Jana]

^^ You live in Dubica, do you ? There was documnetary on HRT about some yearly tradition, kind of King choosing between Serb, Bosniak, Croat and Romani. I think Croat was called Šokac, Bosniak Balija and other nice names, lol. What kind of event is that?

It was hillarious.

Solin, you are wrong about me having some kind of agenda. Just observing the world around.

[StormBringer]

lastly, what if I say Croats are just Christian Serbs!?Would you agree with me???

xD Catholic*

[StormBringer]

I know, I just found it a funny mistype :D

[Jana]

tell that to people of Eastern Ukraine.

You are also forgetting about the stigmatization.Like with your fellow friend, it is natural that he will always prefer his own kind over Croat regardless of what you say to him.Personally, I would get quite upset if someone insulted me with Croat, would rather register this as a slur.His family traditions and the way he was raised are different from yours and you are not in position to tell him how to identify himself.


lastly, what if I say Croats are just Christian Serbs!?Would you agree with me???

How can he be insulted when his grandmother is Croat?? He was born here, but really, I think he's attracted to this whole Belgrade underground lifestyle, tough guy image. He visited BG recently. But really, nodoby said :you're a Croat , but Croatian citizen who's orthodox and identifies as Serb, as his mother is Serb. Whetever, you get what I mean.

This friend of mine got in fight in a Club recently because he annoyed local toughguys in there with ''Srbovanje'' xD

[StormBringer]

How can he be insulted when his grandmother is Croat?? He was born here, but really, I think he's attracted to this whole Belgrade underground lifestyle, tough guy image. He visited BG recently. But really, nodoby said :you're a Croat , but Croatian citizen who's orthodox and identifies as Serb, as his mother is Serb. Whetever, you get what I mean.

This friend of mine got in fight in a Club recently because he annoyed local toughguys in there with ''Srbovanje'' xD

That's even worse xD, halflings are usually really nationalistic.

[Jana]

ok, will read it. But, you are provocating as well!

xD

Ringel should return. Or Sisak. Or Duke. Too little Croats here.

[StormBringer]

Don't you diss Jelisava, she's a lady of profound knowledge! :D

[Jana]

You shouldn't write like that about Sisak!

Moments of sincerity are always good, it happens to me as well. This whole starting tought in this thread was messy from the start. But, it raises some questions.

[Insuperable]

From couple of younger of Serbs I know who live in Croatia, and couple of Croats whom I know here I'd say it's downright hiding of one's identity like a serpent hides her legs...like this one Croat kid I know, never writes down his nationality and religion in application papers for college semester, and if it wasn't for one of the guys who went to highschool with him telling us about him being Croat, I'd have never guessed.

I guess it's mainly out of precaution, cause you never know what kind of people you can run into, but those definitely aren't the shoes I'd like to be in.
And it's convenient since our names don't differ that much, unlike for instance Bosniaks whom you can tell right of the bat as soon as they tell you their name. xD

I fucking hate Balkans
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j0EfVzAq_bQ/U8IGYr64BFI/AAAAAAAB2EY/CteW6wAeivI/s1600/Patrick+Stewart.gif

[Insuperable]

ok, will read it. But, you are provocating as well!

xD

Ringel should return. Or Sisak. Or Duke. Too little Croats here.

Ringel and Duke yes. Sisak, lets hope not.

[Prism]

I fucking hate Balkans
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j0EfVzAq_bQ/U8IGYr64BFI/AAAAAAAB2EY/CteW6wAeivI/s1600/Patrick+Stewart.gif

xD . Whenever someone says so what's the Balkans like ? I say well.... It's complicated. I should just show people this gif from now one.

[coolstorybro]

Identity is primarily biological heritage. Mixed people might say they feel more in common with one identity than the other. Almost all half blacks feel more black than white, this is because of the recessive nature of white genes.

Of course, the US and other countries are mixed by default so there is no real biologicial heritage. Therefore, new cultures emerge, new biology, but even then, people tend to cluster, Scandinavians in Minnesota which has the same climate and so on. Eventually people move around, stay in one place for a few generations and then consider themselves locals. America is interesting because of that, because it is a very young nation, and if they're not careful, they will go the way as whites did in South Africa.

[Shqipez]

I've noticed when some people speak of asimilation they want those minorities to marry others. Lol.

[Ctwentysevenj]

http://rga.revues.org/docannexe/image/1454/img-1-small580.jpg

[Sisak]

National minorities have a lot of rights, some are even the most important politicians, for example. Marina Lovric Merzel. is most important politicians in Croatian politics, they organized a party with the foreign politicians, with US and NATO officials. They organize parties in Croatian forests.
See this article:
http://www.jutarnji.hr/template/article/article-print.jsp?id=1171795
President Ivo Josipovic has even put her in the Croatian school books as an example of a reputable politician. English and American politicians and military officials prefer Serbian women over Croatian, read they more like dark-skinned than white women and they do not hide genocidal intent against the Croats. For them is more important ethnic cleansing of approximately 3 million white Croat women and rather like the gypsy culture. In Bosnia and Herzegovina there is less Croats about 15 - 20 percent, 15 percent lower than that before the war. But due to globalization and liberalizm we have to be a member of NATO, they say.

[Insuperable]

^ She is back, more loco than before.

Why the fuck did you have to come back!?